Latest / The Morning Edition / Matt Canavan on his love of EVs, and calling out Pauline Hanson

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Matt Canavan on his love of EVs, and calling out Pauline Hanson · The Morning Edition

0:02
S1: I'm Paul Sokol and you're listening to Inside Politics from
0:04
S1: the Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. Our host, Jacqueline
0:07
S1: Mail is away this week. So we've got the new
0:09
S1: leader of the National Party to try fill our big shoes.
0:12
S1: Matt Canavan is a former minister who quit the cabinet
0:14
S1: under the previous government, turning into arguably the leading conservative
0:18
S1: opponent of net zero and the broader renewables agenda. The
0:21
S1: coalition controversially dumped the net zero target last year, so
0:25
S1: Canavan was willing to enter the fold once again. He
0:28
S1: took the reins from former leader David Littleproud, who gave
0:31
S1: his last major interview on this podcast last month. Canavan,
0:34
S1: a former Marxist from the suburbs who was once a
0:37
S1: Productivity Commission economist and then a firebrand right winger in
0:40
S1: the Senate, joins us at a time when his party
0:42
S1: is battling for survival against an ascendant One Nation party.
0:50
S2: Welcome, mat.
0:51
S3: Good to be with you, Paul.
0:52
S2: First off, we'll go deeper. But just to start, I
0:55
S2: don't think you've commented yet on the arrest of Ben Roberts-Smith.
0:58
S2: What was your instant reaction to it?
1:01
S3: Uh, look a little bit shocked, I suppose. It's been
1:03
S3: building for some time. Uh, I find myself in a
1:06
S3: very uncomfortable position, though. I, I don't feel like I
1:10
S3: can pass judgment on anybody that has served in our military,
1:15
S3: that has put their life on the line and found
1:17
S3: themselves in these difficult, most difficult of circumstances. I haven't
1:22
S3: done that. Uh, so, you know, it is this strange
1:26
S3: feeling where, you know, I, I have great respect for
1:30
S3: everybody that puts themselves in these dangerous positions. I realize
1:34
S3: we're a country of laws and have standards. Uh, but
1:38
S3: I feel deeply uncomfortable in any way. Um, passing judgment
1:43
S3: on anyone that's served. Obviously, this is a case before
1:46
S3: the court, so I can't comment anything on its particularity.
1:49
S3: I do now have some questions to ask colleagues about
1:51
S3: about I mean, why, why are these cases handled by
1:56
S3: the civilian courts? I think the basic principle of our
1:59
S3: justice system is you should be judged by your peers.
2:02
S3: It goes back to the Magna Carta. And the question is,
2:05
S3: I suppose, who are Ben Roberts peers? As I sort
2:07
S3: of hinted at, I don't view myself as a peer
2:10
S3: of anyone that served in our military because I haven't
2:13
S3: done what they've done. So I think there was a
2:16
S3: time where we used to handle these cases through military tribunals.
2:19
S3: That seems to have been passed to the civilian side
2:21
S3: of things. I'm not I don't know, I'm a little
2:24
S3: bit uncomfortable about that.
2:25
S2: Important, I think, in the conversation to remember that there
2:28
S2: were 21 former SAS soldiers who testified against him. But
2:31
S2: did you think there was potentially a case here for,
2:33
S2: I guess, institutional forbearance?
2:37
S3: I don't quite know what you mean by that. I mean,
2:39
S3: I think, you know, we have to have standards and and,
2:43
S3: you know, we have to have an ability for people
2:46
S3: that have evidence of those standards, uh, potentially allegedly not
2:50
S3: being upheld to come forward and put their case. I
2:54
S3: suppose my comments about where they put their case and
2:56
S3: how those issues are judged. And as I say, if
2:59
S3: I were ever selected on a jury trial and I'm
3:01
S3: not commenting on this case, but if I were ever
3:03
S3: selected on a jury and had to pass judgment on
3:05
S3: somebody who acted in these situations, I find it very,
3:07
S3: very difficult. I would I don't know, not in their circumstance.
3:11
S3: I don't quite understand the pressures they're under.
3:13
S2: Let's go. Darcy. Topic to Darcy topic. You've been pretty
3:16
S2: forthright from really from the outset before mainstream opinion shifted
3:20
S2: sharply on the wisdom of this war in the Middle East. Uh,
3:25
S2: you've been clear that this was a miscalculation on the
3:28
S2: part of the US and questioned the strategy. Given that,
3:32
S2: do you think it's time to have a conversation about
3:36
S2: how we manage the alliance and where we fit in
3:40
S2: to the US military apparatus?
3:43
S3: Look, I think it would be too long a bow
3:46
S3: to say, because of this particular, uh, conflict that we
3:51
S3: should then put into question the entire alliance. I think
3:55
S3: our alliance is strong enough that we could have differences
3:59
S3: of opinion from time to time on the wisdom of
4:01
S3: certain actions. In saying that, I mean, despite what you
4:04
S3: said about my perspective, it was just one perspective. It
4:07
S3: wasn't the perspective I don't think shared by the Australian government.
4:10
S3: They seem to be all in favour of it from
4:13
S3: the get go. Ah, that.
4:15
S2: Surprise.
4:15
S3: You? Uh, probably not, because they don't seem to be
4:19
S3: doing much as a government right now.
4:21
S2: I think it's.
4:22
S3: Just a matter I think they didn't want. They didn't
4:23
S3: believe that for sure. Cautiousness. Yeah. They're very cautious. Uh
4:27
S3: I don't think they're taking radical enough action on a
4:29
S3: range of fronts to fix things. But anyway, it is
4:32
S3: what it is. They've, they had that view and I
4:34
S3: had my view. It was expressed at the time before
4:36
S3: I was in this role. And, uh, it's a matter
4:39
S3: of record and I'll let the historians debate. Now what
4:41
S3: was right or wrong? Um, but now we've got to decide, okay,
4:45
S3: what's in the best interests of our country? And I
4:47
S3: don't think just because of this particular incident, we should
4:50
S3: throw the baby out with the bathwater. Uh, we clearly
4:54
S3: still benefit from having a strong relationship with the world's
4:57
S3: greatest military power. They're still the United States is our
5:03
S3: greatest friend in this area, in this region, which is
5:05
S3: becoming more volatile. So we should try and keep friends,
5:08
S3: not lose them. Um, but in saying that and not
5:11
S3: not I'm not drawing this conclusion from this last few months,
5:15
S3: it's very clear, uh, that, uh, we, uh, face a
5:20
S3: much greater degree of threat, uh, militarily, economically in our region. And,
5:26
S3: and whether it's always, whether it's been true at all before,
5:29
S3: we can't just rely on another country to solve those problems,
5:32
S3: whether it's us or anybody else. Uh, it would be
5:36
S3: mad just to say, oh, the US has always got
5:37
S3: our back. I mean, the United States will always act
5:39
S3: in its national interests. And I do think often its
5:42
S3: national interest is to help us in this region. We
5:44
S3: do offer them, uh, a great partnership, but it is
5:48
S3: just unwise to, to rely exclusively on that. So just
5:52
S3: to be clear again, I'm not drawing that conclusion from
5:54
S3: this latest source of events. This is something I think
5:57
S3: that's been building for a long, long time. And we
5:59
S3: need to become much more independent on a range of fronts,
6:01
S3: including our own defense.
6:03
S2: How do we become more able to self defend in
6:07
S2: a in a region where China is a ever growing
6:10
S2: threat and the US is a less stable partner?
6:13
S3: Yeah, sure. I think sometimes we over exaggerate or underestimate,
6:16
S3: over exaggerate the threats and underestimate our ability to respond
6:19
S3: to them. Uh, I mean, keep in mind that Beijing
6:21
S3: is closer to bond than it is to Brisbane, right?
6:24
S3: So yes, it's in our time zone. Uh, and it's
6:29
S3: in our broad Asia Pacific region. And we're definitely greatly
6:32
S3: affected by what happens. Obviously, given China being our biggest
6:36
S3: trading partner. But this it should not be an impossible
6:41
S3: feat to provide adequate defense for our country from indigenous sources. Uh,
6:47
S3: we have this great benefit of being a long, long
6:50
S3: way from a lot, a lot of countries. It's longer
6:53
S3: than you think. Uh, we, we have, um, the resources
6:57
S3: of a continent. We're the only country in the world
6:59
S3: that has its own continent, and they've got pretty much
7:01
S3: everything you need to feed ourselves to defend ourselves. I
7:05
S3: think we have got ourselves into a position of somewhat dependence,
7:08
S3: because we've become reliant on a global trading system and
7:12
S3: a global alliance system, uh, on a, on a multilateral,
7:15
S3: international system through the United Nations, which is clearly breaking
7:18
S3: it under strain and people are struggling to think of
7:21
S3: some alternative that might exist. I think there are clear
7:24
S3: alternatives that we can move to, which is which are
7:27
S3: ones that that do that are, that are more focused
7:30
S3: on our own country, our own defense, our own productivity, uh,
7:35
S3: our own, our own self-sufficiency. Uh, and yes, that will
7:38
S3: be a challenge for us. And some parts of that
7:40
S3: adjustment will be costly, but it's not insurmountable. And we've
7:43
S3: done this before. We'll be perfectly fine again.
7:45
S2: We'll get to your, uh, perhaps contentious views on global
7:49
S2: trade in a sec. Just just quickly on the military
7:51
S2: and maybe pegging this off the Ben Roberts-Smith saga, no
7:55
S2: matter where the prosecution lands and whether the charges are successful,
7:59
S2: there's no doubt the saga has diminished the standing of
8:03
S2: the military for years, really. We've seen institutions that are
8:08
S2: important for conservatives, including the church. You're a devout Catholic.
8:12
S2: They become dented in the in the public sphere. People
8:16
S2: often say that politics is downstream from culture. You've been
8:19
S2: talking a lot about a more nostalgic, uh, vision, a
8:24
S2: family oriented country, a less kind of cosmopolitan, cosmopolitan country,
8:29
S2: a reversion to rural and regional values. Do you think
8:34
S2: there's a chance that you can push against the cultural
8:37
S2: grain and convince a majority of Australians of that vision?
8:40
S2: Or are you is it a fanciful idea to try
8:44
S2: and revert?
8:46
S3: Short answer is yes. Look, just just a couple of
8:49
S3: issues with the question. I think it is important to
8:51
S3: stress that to my knowledge, no Australian soldier has been
8:56
S3: found guilty of these crimes to date. There's allegations and and, uh,
9:01
S3: and we'll let those players. It is also very much
9:05
S3: regardless of the outcomes in these cases, we're talking about
9:08
S3: a very, very small minority. And, uh, yeah, as I
9:12
S3: said earlier, I've got enormous respect for the sacrifice that
9:16
S3: our military, uh, engages in on a day to day basis.
9:22
S3: And the final point I make is let's not let
9:24
S3: the political class off here. Uh, it was a political
9:28
S3: decision to expose our armed forces in such a constant
9:32
S3: way to these pressures and issues across what was the
9:37
S3: longest war we've ever been involved in the global war
9:39
S3: on terror. Uh, I don't pretend to be an expert
9:43
S3: in this field, but from listening to others and speaking
9:45
S3: to others, we put a lot of pressure on a
9:47
S3: very few number of our armed forces to play in
9:50
S3: the front lines effectively of that war. The contribution we
9:52
S3: made to help our allies, the United States. And again,
9:57
S3: regardless of the outcomes in these cases, uh, that's put
10:01
S3: unsustainable pressure on people. So I don't blame I well,
10:06
S3: I don't absolve, I don't want to absolve, you know,
10:09
S3: this town, my, myself and all the roles we played,
10:11
S3: I came a bit late to all of these issues
10:13
S3: in my political career, but, uh, you know, one thing,
10:16
S3: one firm conclusion I've come to is that a lot
10:18
S3: of mistakes were made during the response to a political
10:21
S3: decision that's caused a lot of loss of life for
10:23
S3: people and also destruction of their own, um, their own
10:28
S3: mental capacities through the pressures they were placed under. So
10:31
S3: it was our decision. So we've got to take that. Um,
10:33
S3: in terms of the broader cultural issues. Well, look, I,
10:39
S3: I detect and you're right, politics is downstream of culture.
10:42
S3: So I don't think I can play a major role
10:43
S3: influencing this. Uh. but others will be much, much more influential.
10:49
S3: But I do detect that there is a shift back
10:53
S3: to a more patriotic outlook. Uh, yes, to some degree,
10:58
S3: more tribal outlook. And that's pretty understandable given the pressures
11:01
S3: we face whenever a society, a community is placed under
11:05
S3: external pressure. There is a tendency, uh, to, to bunker
11:08
S3: back down within the tribe, within the nation in the
11:11
S3: modern parlance. And so we're seeing that we think we
11:14
S3: saw that during Covid, and now we're seeing it through
11:16
S3: this conflict in the Middle East, but we're seeing it
11:18
S3: with a breakdown in the international rules based order. Uh,
11:22
S3: and so there's a great, um, outpouring of, of, uh,
11:27
S3: preference for things that are Australian, uh, and that are
11:31
S3: close to our hearts and homes. Yeah. I think you
11:34
S3: see that most among young people more than anything else, that's, uh, that's,
11:38
S3: that's very much on the cards. Uh, we're seeing that.
11:41
S2: With young people.
11:43
S3: Yeah. Look, uh, obviously there's a major issue for young
11:48
S3: people is, is how to own their own home, um,
11:51
S3: and establish themselves in their own country, but they are
11:55
S3: then seeing, um, you know, that that dream be shattered,
11:59
S3: at least in part because of an uncontrolled border, um, where,
12:04
S3: you know, we saw this week, apparently, apparently the Labour
12:07
S3: Party is giving the 5% deposit schemes to newly arrived migrants,
12:11
S3: people on permanent residency, and they got permanent residency, but
12:13
S3: they're not Australian citizens. And so I.
12:15
S2: Think the migration.
12:16
S3: While they're getting a leg up on on that. So
12:19
S3: that's causing that issue. I think you're seeing on another
12:22
S3: slightly different issue, uh, the realization that excessive government spending
12:27
S3: does lead to outbreaks of inflation, high interest rates. And
12:31
S3: so you're starting to see that shift that people realize
12:34
S3: that the NDIS, the fraud and scams are saying all
12:36
S3: these programs have a real cost, even if you don't
12:39
S3: pay the direct cost indirectly, people are paying now through
12:42
S3: a weaker economy and higher interest rates. We're seeing that.
12:45
S3: And on the energy front, we're also seeing a big
12:48
S3: wake up in people realizing that constraining our energy options
12:52
S3: comes at a massive, massive cost. We're seeing that directly
12:55
S3: with the liquid fuels crisis. We've got about more generally
12:58
S3: our loss of industry and manufacturing capability. So all of
13:01
S3: those issues are kind of trending in a more conservative direction.
13:05
S3: So our issue politically is do people still believe that
13:10
S3: we will provide conservative solutions? We have have somewhat damaged
13:16
S3: our brand name by seeking short term political gain in
13:19
S3: recent years.
13:21
S2: What are some examples of that?
13:22
S3: Well net zero is top top of the tree top. Absolute.
13:25
S3: I mean in terms of you know why we've lost
13:28
S3: trust with with people we've I think forgotten why we
13:33
S3: are in politics. And that's not to win elections. We're
13:35
S3: in politics. I joined the Liberal National Party because I
13:38
S3: believe in, in in unleashing into enterprise in controlling and
13:44
S3: being disciplined with spending. Supporting families and developing our nation.
13:49
S3: All those things. That's why I got involved. Winning elections
13:51
S3: as a means to those ends.
13:52
S2: Winning elections isn't isn't the ultimate.
13:54
S3: It's not the end. No, no, it's not why I
13:56
S3: do this. I wouldn't spend.
13:57
S2: To get in there first, though.
13:58
S3: Exactly, exactly. It's a means to an end. But I
14:00
S3: wouldn't do this just for that. I wouldn't spend half
14:03
S3: my time a year, basically. Probably more than that now
14:05
S3: in this role, away from my family, just to get
14:08
S3: a title or have a ministerial office. I've had that
14:11
S3: and it's it was a great honor, but it's not
14:15
S3: that important unless you can do things, unless you do
14:16
S3: things that you think are good for your country. And, uh,
14:19
S3: you know, the most frustrating thing for me in the
14:22
S3: debates about net zero on our own side of politics
14:23
S3: was it almost invariably was not about what's best for
14:25
S3: our country. It was what's best for us. How are
14:27
S3: we going to win seats? And, you know, if we
14:29
S3: do this or that, we won't win that. Well, it
14:30
S3: turned out to be a complete disaster politically and has
14:33
S3: also not been great for our country economically. And then
14:36
S3: on top of that, um, during Covid, we saw a
14:38
S3: similar outbreaks of that are in sometimes insipid response to
14:44
S3: various lockdowns and and state government overreactions. Although overall the
14:50
S3: Morrison government wasn't too bad on that. The bigger issue
14:52
S3: was the the unleashing of the Treasury and spending.
14:55
S2: Public.
14:55
S3: Debt, which had to happen at first, but then we
14:57
S3: got a bit addicted to it. And that that's.
15:00
S2: You.
15:00
S3: Talked.
15:01
S2: You talked earlier about an answer about a kind of
15:04
S2: tribal instinct in Western societies.
15:07
S3: Oh, I'd say it's all human societies, but yeah, sure.
15:10
S2: So was your sense that there is a conservative, majoritarian
15:15
S2: movement across much of the world at the moment, perhaps
15:18
S2: being exemplified by Pauline Hanson in Australia, but it's not
15:21
S2: clear to Australian voters that the coalition parties are actually
15:25
S2: leading that charge, that they actually are true conservatives.
15:28
S3: Yeah. Look, I think generally, I suppose in Western societies
15:31
S3: we're seeing that trend, um, because it's Western societies being
15:34
S3: placed under this enormous pressure, although.
15:36
S2: Yes, Turkey.
15:37
S3: It's happening. It's happening elsewhere, although I probably struggle to
15:39
S3: comment a bit, I suppose, about what's happening in those
15:41
S3: other countries. Uh, politics are very different. Society is very different.
15:45
S3: But yeah, we are similar to European countries, North American countries,
15:49
S3: Japan as well, probably a little bit more culturally aligned
15:53
S3: since World War Two. So, you know, we're seeing all
15:56
S3: of that in those countries now. That doesn't mean that
15:58
S3: it'll always result in in, you know, right wing political
16:01
S3: parties being elected. You can see it. It's affecting the
16:04
S3: Labour Party too. Suddenly, the Prime Minister is talking about
16:06
S3: progressive patriotism. What does that mean? I don't know, I
16:08
S3: don't think we really know what came up yet.
16:10
S2: Came up a year ago. He actually said it on
16:11
S2: his podcast first.
16:12
S3: But did he?
16:13
S2: He resurrected it since One Nation. That's right.
16:16
S3: So you can see they're reacting to this too. Peter
16:18
S3: Malinauskas Peter Malinauskas exactly, exactly. So that's that is the
16:22
S3: trend now. Yeah. Look, going back to your question, uh,
16:26
S3: you know, people will will have understandable questions about our
16:30
S3: bona fides, but look, I've taken a pretty strong patriotic approach,
16:34
S3: letting the nationalist party. Now, Angus Taylor has always had
16:37
S3: a very sensible approach to these issues, and I think
16:39
S3: we'll see him come out of his shell. So look,
16:42
S3: the challenge is there for us and opportunity is there
16:43
S3: for us. But I'm not underestimating the, the, the, uh,
16:48
S3: the anger that's out there and the threat that, uh, that, um,
16:52
S3: that one nation poses to us politically. But that's not
16:55
S3: the main game. The main game is making sure we
16:56
S3: get do a good thing for the Australian people.
16:58
S2: What will that look like when Angus Taylor is out
17:02
S2: of his shell on these issues?
17:04
S3: Uh, well, look, I I'm not going to speak for Angus.
17:07
S3: It's a matter for him. But what I can say
17:09
S3: is that I've always been impressed by Angus instincts. He's
17:13
S3: got great gut instincts. Uh, I worked with him very
17:15
S3: closely in the Turnbull and Morrison governments, particularly when we were, uh,
17:20
S3: resources and energy ministers, respectively. Uh, so yeah, he has
17:24
S3: has a deep understanding for Australia. Uh, he grew up
17:30
S3: chasing brumbies not far from here. He's, he's. But then
17:34
S3: of course had a very successful business career as well.
17:36
S3: So I think we need somebody like that at the
17:38
S3: helm right now. Uh, who is is very steady but
17:43
S3: firm in what he believes. Yeah. I think he'll, he'll
17:46
S3: in terms of coming out of his shell, that'll naturally
17:48
S3: happen as being leader. Uh, you know, to date hasn't
17:51
S3: been leader and sometimes probably had to do some things
17:54
S3: that he may not have been 100% behind.
17:57
S2: That.
17:57
S3: Net zero. I just I don't know, you'll have to
17:58
S3: ask him, but I just I just left. I just,
18:01
S3: I just, you know, took the engine and went home. Um,
18:04
S3: Angus probably did something more honorable.
18:06
S2: Yeah. Well, Angus Taylor is arguably one of the leading
18:13
S2: avatars in the current political establishment for kind of how
18:17
S2: would your economic thinking. That's what, you know, most analysts,
18:21
S2: I think, would say. I'm not suggesting that he's the
18:23
S2: target of your commentary on economic orthodoxy, but you've just
18:27
S2: come from a National Press Club speech where you declare
18:30
S2: the end of what you describe as the Hawke Howard
18:33
S2: era economic model. You say new. Uh, an economic revolution
18:38
S2: is required, not just a reset. You call for across
18:41
S2: the board. It's unclear if you're calling for this. I
18:44
S2: think you hint that across the board tariffs should be
18:47
S2: looked at, not just ad hoc. Yeah. Not just an
18:51
S2: ad hoc approach to anti-dumping, but, um, kind of more consistent, uh, uh,
18:57
S2: trade barriers in critical industries. You were an avowed Marxist
19:02
S2: at university that young Marxist might have, have a, have
19:05
S2: a that young Marxist might have a smile on his face.
19:08
S3: Um, well, look, I, I don't think you have to.
19:12
S3: I have to reach back into the, um, uh, to, uh,
19:16
S3: the Communist manifesto to, to find support for the protection
19:21
S3: of domestic industry, uh, certainly is a relatively strong foundation
19:28
S3: of the Liberal Party and maybe not the foundation of
19:31
S3: the country party, but certainly it's one of its principles
19:35
S3: as it grew and developed under John McEwen. So look,
19:38
S3: it's these things do go a little bit in cycles.
19:40
S3: Just to clarify, I didn't I'm not calling for across
19:43
S3: the board tariffs per se, but I am calling for
19:46
S3: something more permanent and coherent in response to the competitive
19:50
S3: and protection protective threats we're seeing from other countries. My
19:54
S3: basic principle here is that our current anti-dumping model. So
19:56
S3: we do apply tariffs right now. They're just a dog's breakfast.
19:59
S2: And they're not called tariffs.
20:00
S3: Well some people call them tariffs. But I mean it's
20:02
S3: a charge that we put on the importation of goods
20:05
S3: from certain countries.
20:06
S2: Which has the same.
20:07
S3: Effect, same effect. And although I would argue it's much,
20:09
S3: much worse because it's extremely difficult to calculate these tariffs
20:13
S3: or these charges if you want to call those duties. Uh,
20:17
S3: the formulas are extremely opaque. Some of the, some of
20:19
S3: the information of the formulas are actually confidential. Uh, because
20:22
S3: they go to individual companies pricing schemes. And so I've
20:25
S3: got 28 of these right now. 28 commodities are covered,
20:28
S3: although there are some tariffs under each of those for
20:31
S3: different countries, different businesses even. So it's very, very complex. Um,
20:34
S3: and maybe that was a reasonable response in the situation
20:37
S3: where you might have a country take opportunistic action to
20:40
S3: dump products in Australia for a year or two or
20:43
S3: a short period of time as they got rid of
20:45
S3: excess production. That's clearly not what's happening now. Um, there
20:49
S3: are stated explicit goals from China, from the United States,
20:52
S3: our friends, um, that want to steal our industry and
20:55
S3: our jobs. They, they want to take, uh, these, these, uh, these, uh,
21:01
S3: productive activities to their own country. And so in that environment,
21:04
S3: I do think we need something more permanent, coherent indeed.
21:07
S3: The nationals party felt this. We released a paper on
21:09
S3: this five years ago. Some kind of relaunching this today,
21:12
S3: saying exactly this thing. And so it would be targeted,
21:14
S3: but it would be coherent and it would be, uh,
21:17
S3: more most importantly, structured on the long term goal of
21:21
S3: sustaining certain key industries in this country.
21:22
S2: Where would you apply them and how would they look
21:25
S2: at what, who would decide the rate? Well.
21:27
S3: The, the well, we suggested in this paper that the
21:31
S3: Anti-Dumping Commission could do that work, and all of it
21:34
S3: would be therefore legal under our oil trading obligation commitments,
21:40
S3: that they would look at what the protective measures are
21:42
S3: in other countries. And there is a basic principle you
21:44
S3: can take reciprocal action if another country is going to
21:46
S3: subsidize or protect its own industry. Well, we can do
21:49
S3: the same. And that happens to our industries all the time.
21:51
S3: So we should. It's good for the goose. It's good
21:53
S3: for the gander. Uh, so, uh, as I say, there
21:57
S3: are 28 commodities at the moment. One that really needs
21:59
S3: to be looked at closely is steel. Uh, but but
22:02
S3: maybe we could be more comprehensive. Keep in mind, I mean,
22:04
S3: we just signed an Australian EU free trade agreement, and
22:07
S3: the EU likes to run around and say they support
22:09
S3: free trade.
22:10
S2: You called it the worst trade deal.
22:11
S3: Well, we can come to that if you like. There's
22:13
S3: lots of reasons for that. But just on this point,
22:15
S3: he likes to say it believes in free trade. Just before,
22:18
S3: just before it signed that deal, the EU upped its
22:21
S3: steel tariffs from 20% to 50%. Uh, they were going
22:24
S3: to come into effect soon then that wasn't dealt with
22:27
S3: in this agreement. So it will still our steel industry
22:29
S3: will still pay that 50% tariff. And so why, why,
22:33
S3: why does Europe get to act like that? But apparently,
22:36
S3: you know, we can't take some sort of similar action
22:38
S3: when we say, okay, we want to steel industry here.
22:40
S3: We're the biggest exporter of coke and coal of iron ore.
22:42
S3: It's a key commodity for any basic country, any, any
22:46
S3: modern economy. Let's not end up in the same position
22:48
S3: as liquid fuels and not have some of it during
22:51
S3: a crisis.
22:52
S2: We know that China spends a huge amount of its
22:54
S2: GDP on state subsidy to create oversupply and flood countries
22:59
S2: like Australia with product like steel. Should we be using
23:01
S2: our trade relationship with China to exert pressure on that
23:05
S2: government for whatever that pressure would be worth to stop
23:07
S2: doing that?
23:08
S3: I don't know if that would work. I mean, look,
23:14
S3: countries have the sovereign right to to develop these industries. Honestly,
23:18
S3: I'd much prefer if we were going to target a
23:20
S3: country for that kind of countervailing pressure or action. It
23:23
S3: would be the EU and their subsidies on agriculture, which
23:26
S3: are Unbelievable and not dealt with again in the free
23:29
S3: trade agreement we signed with them. And look, if we
23:32
S3: can't convince our friends to do that in the US
23:35
S3: and Canada are almost Canada's probably as bad us almost
23:39
S3: as bad in terms of its subsidization of farming. If
23:41
S3: we can't convince our friends to do that, I don't
23:43
S3: see we've got much hope in convincing China to take
23:45
S3: a different course. So it's probably just what they're going
23:47
S3: to do.
23:47
S2: If you started erecting trade barriers in government, would that
23:51
S2: not risk other countries putting barriers on our farm, farm
23:56
S2: farming product and hurting our own?
23:58
S3: I mean, I think China tried that didn't work out
23:59
S3: too well for them, right? Uh, um, look, as I say,
24:04
S3: I'm not suggesting we take any action that's not taken
24:06
S3: by other countries. That would be reciprocal in nature. So
24:08
S3: we have very strong legal grounds, uh, very strong moral
24:12
S3: case too. For the situation that should all be explained
24:15
S3: and be clear about what we're trying to do. Uh,
24:18
S3: and it's also not anything action we take on this
24:21
S3: front is not of huge risk to other countries. So
24:23
S3: for example, on the steel issue.
24:25
S2: It's we're a small market.
24:26
S3: We're a small market. We have 12 million. We need
24:28
S3: to use about 12 million tons of steel a year.
24:30
S3: We can produce about six now. Only two steel mills left.
24:33
S3: I think the goal should be self-sufficiency in steel. Like
24:35
S3: why not? China produces a billion tons of steel. So
24:39
S3: you know, like it's not it's not that much of
24:42
S3: a problem. I do think there's a broader issue here,
24:44
S3: which I didn't mention the Press Club, but I've spoken
24:46
S3: about elsewhere is the broader issue here is, is it
24:49
S3: a good thing for the world for one country to
24:52
S3: have 60% of steel production, to have 80% of rare
24:55
S3: earths production, to have across 18 of 20 key commodities?
24:59
S3: The IEA has identified China has a majority supply of.
25:03
S3: Is that good? Now, we can't rebalance that situation alone.
25:06
S3: So I take your question about putting pressure but alone.
25:09
S3: We're not going to do that. But there probably is
25:11
S3: scope for us to play a role as part of
25:12
S3: the world to try and rebalance this thing. We're trying
25:14
S3: to do a bit of that through the critical Minerals agenda,
25:16
S3: which which I started as resources minister, and this government
25:19
S3: is continuing its hard yakka, but there's probably a role
25:22
S3: we can play in doing that. But there's also this
25:24
S3: other issue about our own needs and self-sufficiency that we
25:26
S3: can control ourselves.
25:27
S2: Yeah. Governments ploughing billions into critical minerals for that. Yeah.
25:30
S2: And look for that purpose to, well, diversify.
25:34
S3: The problem, the problem here is, again, I go back
25:37
S3: to my point around the tariffs and that. Right. Like
25:40
S3: so we're pouring billions in, right. That's costing us a
25:42
S3: lot of money. And then, mate, you know, plenty of
25:46
S3: us consumers in particular, turn around, just buy the cheapest product.
25:49
S3: There's a lot of talk about it, but but yeah,
25:54
S3: even that Linus facility in Texas, I think that's that's
25:57
S3: not going as well as hoped. It's just really hard
26:01
S3: here because, you know, I don't think we're fighting fire
26:03
S3: with fire. Uh, China doesn't muck around. They'll they'll do
26:07
S3: whatever it takes to protect their industries. Put up the barriers.
26:11
S3: We'll throw. You know, we'll announce a few media releases,
26:13
S3: throw a few billions of dollars here and there, and, uh,
26:17
S3: a lot of it gets wasted. And, you know, we
26:18
S3: still lose the markets.
26:20
S2: Just on one more on Angus Taylor. He's shown no
26:22
S2: sign of shifting on his economic principles. You made a
26:25
S2: point in your speech today of dismissing the idea that
26:28
S2: you're here to talk for the Liberal Party. You're you're
26:30
S2: a national Party first leader. I've heard Tim Wilson say
26:34
S2: after your election, in response to a suggestion that, you know,
26:37
S2: you would drag the Liberal Party to the right of her.
26:39
S2: Tim Wilson, who's a leading moderate, say that your ascension
26:43
S2: to the leadership allows the Liberals to be liberals again
26:46
S2: and the National Party to be the national Party. Is
26:48
S2: that your view that you're in deep opposition? You need
26:51
S2: to reconnect with your bases, your respective bases. Do you
26:55
S2: think that your leadership is of the Nationals and National Nationals?
26:59
S2: First approach allows people like Tim Wilson to go and be, uh,
27:03
S2: to cleave further towards their identifying, um, core identity?
27:09
S3: Look, I, I mean, I don't know, I haven't thought
27:12
S3: deeply about that. I, I do think that it, that
27:16
S3: it serves the coalition well and our country well. The
27:18
S3: nationals party is not shy about speaking up. Uh, I
27:23
S3: thought that was a mistake before the 25 election that
27:25
S3: we did sort of turn the volume down on ourselves
27:27
S3: a little bit in this naive view that that would
27:30
S3: somehow allow us to win city seats. I mean, that
27:31
S3: didn't work, obviously. But when when we have had a
27:35
S3: strong voice on issues as a nationalist party, we've been
27:37
S3: on the carbon tax a decade ago, Adani in 2019. Um,
27:42
S3: you know, we've done pretty well. So, uh so I
27:46
S3: don't think it's hurt us the ability to, to win
27:49
S3: city seats, so to speak. I mean, I said the
27:51
S3: other week, I grew up in Brisbane, uh, in suburban Brisbane. I,
27:56
S3: I don't think you read through my speech today about
27:59
S3: bringing manufacturing back, you know, doing things for Australia again,
28:04
S3: focusing unashamedly on our own country, building dams and new areas,
28:09
S3: being pioneers. I don't know, I think that goes down
28:13
S3: pretty well in the cities too.
28:15
S2: Your former leader, David Littleproud, sitting in that seat, actually
28:17
S2: said a month ago that he expected the Nats to finish,
28:20
S2: probably finish in fourth place in. Farrah, what's your sense?
28:23
S2: Can your. You're camping out in the seat.
28:26
S3: Yeah, I brought my swag.
28:27
S2: Yeah. Recently held by Susan Lee. How do you reckon
28:30
S2: you can lift the party's fortunes there or are you
28:32
S2: bound to.
28:32
S3: I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try. Look, I as I
28:35
S3: said at the Press Club, I'll just say it again. But,
28:37
S3: you know, I take the.
28:39
S2: Be more honest.
28:39
S3: Here, I take the well, I do, I take the
28:41
S3: approach like it's like a racehorse. They don't know they're
28:43
S3: their own odds. They just race. And that's what I'm
28:45
S3: going to do. I don't you know, other people can
28:47
S3: predict where we're going to finish and what we're going
28:48
S3: to do. I think we're going to win. That's what
28:51
S3: I think. Uh.
28:52
S2: You think you'll.
28:52
S3: Win? Yeah. I mean, that's how I approach every fight.
28:54
S3: I don't go to fight thinking I'm going to lose,
28:56
S3: you know? I mean, who goes on?
28:57
S2: You don't actually think you're gonna win, though.
28:59
S3: Yeah, I do, I do. I might not, but that's
29:01
S3: how I.
29:01
S2: Yeah. I think your polling has you in last.
29:03
S3: Spot so you can change polling can change can change
29:06
S3: very quickly. Um yeah, absolutely can. So I mean, I
29:10
S3: wouldn't go in a race not thinking I can win
29:12
S3: or will win. You know, that's, that's yeah, you start every,
29:16
S3: every game with that attitude And this is more important
29:20
S3: than a game. And so I still have that attitude.
29:22
S3: We've got a great candidate. Uh, it's given me a
29:25
S3: great opportunity to reconnect with a wonderful part of Australia.
29:27
S3: I've spent a lot of time there over the years.
29:30
S3: We're fighting very hard for it already. We've taken up
29:32
S3: the issue of Narendra who don't have clean drinking water.
29:34
S3: Like for God's sake. I've pushed that very hard. I've
29:37
S3: got a commission of inquiry up for. Well, we're pushing
29:39
S3: for that into the Murray-Darling to look at, particularly the
29:41
S3: water infrastructure that is starting to decay. And we need
29:43
S3: to invest in that. And next week, I'm holding a
29:45
S3: community forum in Albury on the Aubrey Hospital, which is
29:49
S3: just in a shocking state of disrepair. It's deeply affected
29:51
S3: talking to doctors and nurses there. So look, it's not
29:55
S3: rocket science, Paul. Uh, I believe the nationals party is
29:57
S3: the best party for Farah because we listen to people,
30:00
S3: we act, we deliver. And that's all I've got to do. Um,
30:04
S3: you've spoken we've spoken about a lot of grand philosophical issues,
30:07
S3: which are very important to our country too. But I'm
30:10
S3: always being locals first politician where I have a constituency.
30:15
S3: I have a responsibility to those people. And I fight
30:18
S3: like hell to get them better. A better deal from
30:20
S3: our country.
30:21
S2: I think people in your party expect that either One
30:24
S2: nation or the climate 200 backed independent will probably win
30:27
S2: that seat. If one nation does win it, and particularly
30:31
S2: after the South Australian election result, which was where they
30:34
S2: polled a higher primary vote than the very disheveled Liberal opposition,
30:39
S2: that will prove just once again that one nation is
30:41
S2: embedded in the in the.
30:43
S3: Yeah, there'll still be hope. I mean, obviously one nation
30:45
S3: have talked themselves up. Um, you know, they're I think
30:48
S3: they're probably the favorites. Haven't looked at the odds recently.
30:50
S3: I don't know, but, but yeah, they've definitely presented themselves as,
30:54
S3: as being the favorites for the seat. So good luck
30:55
S3: to them. Uh, I say I think we can win.
30:58
S3: I don't know if they're favorites, but I think we
31:00
S3: can do it. And so if they do it, good
31:02
S3: luck to them. Uh, the key thing though, Paul will
31:05
S3: be who's going to be able to win seats off labor? Yeah.
31:08
S3: You know, if we want to change the government and
31:10
S3: I think One Nation voters do, I do. I think
31:12
S3: we need a change. Uh, we've got to win seats
31:15
S3: off the other side. Farrah's not one of those. Labor's
31:17
S3: not even running. I haven't looked into the South Australian
31:20
S3: election for the last couple of seats. They won, but
31:22
S3: I think all the seats they won might have been
31:23
S3: formerly Liberal held or, you know, sort of areas that
31:26
S3: liberals would normally hold.
31:27
S2: I took a bit of skin off later, but they
31:29
S2: won Liberal seats and independents.
31:31
S3: That's the test. Can they do that? Um.
31:34
S2: In your gut, are you worried about the National Party
31:38
S2: dying out as a brand and being supplanted by one nation? Look,
31:41
S2: it's happened in other other countries with racial.
31:44
S3: Very serious for our political movement, people are very angry. Uh,
31:49
S3: I don't take as a given somehow that we, as
31:53
S3: a political party, that we as members of Parliament deserve
31:56
S3: our seats for life or forever or anything like that. Uh,
31:59
S3: we've got to work very hard every time to gain
32:02
S3: the trust of people. And as I said earlier, we
32:03
S3: have lost some trust. We've lost some skin from people.
32:06
S3: I suppose I'd ask people to look again at us,
32:09
S3: given I never did. I felt I never deviated from
32:15
S3: the convictions and principles I started with. That's what I
32:17
S3: focus on trying to do. And, uh, now as nationals leader,
32:20
S3: I'll do that more around the country.
32:21
S2: You've tried to draw clear battle lines with Pauline Hanson.
32:24
S2: From your first press conference onwards, you made a sharp
32:27
S2: criticism that her brand of racial politics stokes division. My
32:31
S2: understanding is that you copped some pretty severe backlash from
32:35
S2: her base when you made those comments. What does that
32:37
S2: say about the salience of the migration question and your
32:40
S2: ability to fight her on it?
32:41
S3: I mean, I knew I knew I was going to
32:43
S3: cop backlash from that. Uh.
32:45
S2: What was it like when, you.
32:47
S3: Know, people said mean things.
32:50
S2: To your face?
32:51
S3: Oh, no, no, I, I mean, I could probably count
32:54
S3: on one hand how many times people have come up
32:56
S3: to me in my whole political career and said a
32:58
S3: mean thing to my face doesn't really happen. I don't
33:00
S3: think it's happened in the last couple of months. Uh,
33:04
S3: but but you'll get the converse online. Online. It's every,
33:07
S3: every second person. So, uh, look, I knew that I just,
33:13
S3: I'm always going to say what I believe in it.
33:14
S3: And nothing more fundamental to me than trying to treat
33:18
S3: all human beings as sacred individuals and and great members
33:23
S3: of our society. I'm very patriotic. But if you're in
33:26
S3: the Australian club, I will protect your rights to the hilt,
33:29
S3: no matter where you're from and what faith you are.
33:33
S3: And I particularly found Pauline's comments on Muslims not consistent
33:38
S3: with that approach to our country. It is divisive and
33:42
S3: it needed to be called out. And I'm always going
33:44
S3: to do that regardless of the consequences for me, because
33:46
S3: it's the right thing to do. Uh, yeah. Look, I've
33:50
S3: got a track record of that too. I mean, I
33:52
S3: was one of the very few people, I think in
33:53
S3: politics who said we should bring, uh, Indian Australians back
33:56
S3: during Delta. Do you remember? We left them stranded there.
33:58
S3: It's like crazy. Like they were Australians. They had Australian passports. And, uh,
34:04
S3: I wasn't saying just bring them back and let them
34:06
S3: roam free, but they could do that quarantine, etc. we
34:08
S3: should have tried to, to, to do something for them. Uh,
34:11
S3: so I'll always stick up for Australians. And, uh, you know, we, we've,
34:16
S3: we've had, uh, we do have a great country, but
34:19
S3: it is being tested at the moment. Uh. Um, we've
34:22
S3: got to respond to the issues and concerns. People have
34:25
S3: legitimate issues and concerns people have, but we will change
34:27
S3: our country if we go down this, as I call it,
34:29
S3: if we go down this identity politics on the right,
34:30
S3: where we divide people into tribes and groups, that's that's
34:34
S3: going to end our country if we do that.
34:36
S2: So it sounds like you said a clear guardrail on
34:38
S2: your migration policy, which we've been expecting for a long
34:40
S2: time now, that it will not, uh, shift from a
34:43
S2: non-discriminatory approach, but there are a lot of people in
34:45
S2: your party, not a lot. A group of people in
34:47
S2: your party debating whether to change rules around permanent residency
34:51
S2: and citizenship, to make it more difficult to get those statuses,
34:54
S2: to make it, uh, to put some clearer criteria around employment,
34:59
S2: criminal history, uh, make it a longer period of time.
35:02
S2: What do you think about those?
35:03
S3: I think those are all legitimate contributions. Uh, my, I
35:05
S3: think the immediate focus needs to be fixing up the
35:09
S3: student visa situation, which I know the government's been trying to,
35:11
S3: but it's also trying to do so in a way
35:13
S3: which exempts the large universities. When they tried to put
35:17
S3: that bill through the other year, they basically exempted the
35:19
S3: Group of eight from any serious cuts, which is not right.
35:21
S3: I mean, some of the worst villains here making a
35:24
S3: heap of money.
35:24
S2: I'm not sure that's right. I don't think they did
35:26
S2: exempt them.
35:26
S3: No, look, it wasn't fully exempt. But if you look,
35:29
S3: they skewed the reductions to the vocational education sector and
35:33
S3: not concentrated on the group of eight. Um and so look,
35:37
S3: I think there does need to be significant cuts there
35:40
S3: because Australian universities should primarily be for Australian students. That
35:43
S3: would make a big difference in the number of people.
35:44
S3: It's about 100,000 a year extra coming in through the
35:47
S3: student visa program at the moment, which I don't think
35:50
S3: is justified. Um, anyway, and then and then on this
35:53
S3: broader question, yes, there are legitimate issues there. One thing
35:55
S3: that struck me, you know, I was a suspected Italian
35:59
S3: there for a little while. Got out of that.
36:02
S2: On your mother's.
36:02
S3: Side. Mum mum mum, Nana, Nana came from Italy, uh,
36:06
S3: after the war, as many did. And one thing that
36:09
S3: really struck me, because when I did that, I went
36:11
S3: to the National Archives and got all the details about
36:13
S3: my Nana and Nana. And to become Australian citizens, they
36:18
S3: had to go through the mill. They had to get
36:21
S3: letters from their priests, from the police officer, go through
36:24
S3: all these checks. This is the 1950s and it seemed
36:27
S3: pretty intense process. They had to give up their Italian citizens.
36:30
S2: What could we do now to strengthen?
36:31
S3: Well, I don't know. Why don't we? We don't seem
36:33
S3: to do that. Like it seems to be a bit
36:35
S3: more of a tick and flick. And, um, I think
36:38
S3: it's a pretty exclusive club and it's perfectly reasonable. A pretty,
36:42
S3: pretty high hurdles to get into it. I say non-discriminatory hurdles. Yeah.
36:45
S3: But um but yeah, you should, you should have fit
36:50
S3: and proper person tests of very, very stringent um, uh,
36:56
S3: levels to become Australian citizens.
36:58
S2: You led the move to kill net zero in the
37:00
S2: Nats last year after years of campaigning. I don't think
37:04
S2: you could argue that there's no evidence yet in polling
37:06
S2: that it's had any effect on your party's popularity? You
37:11
S2: haven't yet really campaigned on it, but to date I
37:12
S2: don't think there's any evidence that it has any has
37:14
S2: had any positive effect. I wonder, how do you differentiate
37:17
S2: from Barnaby Joyce and Pauline Hanson on the net zero question?
37:20
S2: Is your policy a direct mirror of theirs?
37:23
S3: Uh, look, I don't know. You'd have to. I mean,
37:26
S3: I'm not in the business of just comparing my policies
37:28
S3: with other political parties. I can tell you what I
37:30
S3: want to do and what we want to do. I
37:32
S3: think we're winning this debate, though, overall, obviously, a whole
37:36
S3: lot of things are happening on the polling front, and
37:38
S3: a lot of that goes back to probably the broader
37:40
S3: trust issues I spoke to earlier that we need to fix.
37:42
S2: Are you winning the debate across the whole community or
37:45
S2: within the right?
37:47
S3: You tell me. Tell me, why didn't the Prime Minister
37:50
S3: mention net zero at the Press Club last week?
37:53
S2: Did he not?
37:54
S3: He didn't. I only watched it last night. I watched
37:56
S3: it on the way down. I thought I'd better watch this.
37:58
S2: I don't think there's great evidence that the government is
38:00
S2: shying away from its renewables.
38:01
S3: Well, I just. Hey, they just dropped 82% target. Did
38:03
S3: you see that? They did. I think their That platform.
38:07
S2: That platform is a kind of high level document.
38:10
S3: Right? Okay. I take your point, but it is. I mean, look,
38:12
S3: I was a bit shocked. I watched this speech from
38:14
S3: the Prime Minister at the Press Club. Yeah. Big speech.
38:16
S3: And most of the speech was on this future Made
38:18
S3: in Australia agenda. A lot of which shares similar goals
38:21
S3: and objectives to what I spoke about today. But the
38:25
S3: centrepiece of that agenda, if you go back to its inception,
38:28
S3: the future made in Australia, the policy they released, the
38:30
S3: 22 election that they're still implementing. The whole reason for
38:33
S3: it was net zero. Like that's that's that's the foundation
38:36
S3: stone because their argument, the Labour Party's argument is you
38:39
S3: do net zero. And then we have all these opportunities
38:41
S3: in clean energy and new energy markets like hydrogen. And
38:45
S3: that will lead to heaps of manufacturing jobs, etc. it'll
38:47
S3: be a future made in Australia. Well, last week he
38:50
S3: did talk about that a lot, but he didn't mention
38:54
S3: the words net zero once, not once.
38:57
S2: Do you think it's a dirty word now?
38:58
S3: I do, Labour party doesn't do anything with that. They're
39:01
S3: very ruthless with this stuff. They're very politically astute. And
39:06
S3: that to me is who's a listener. I don't think
39:08
S3: he mentioned her, and I went back into the look
39:10
S3: and searched for it. Nope. Didn't. HMM.
39:11
S2: I think we'll need to keep watching all that.
39:13
S3: They're dropping it. They're dropping it like a stone.
39:15
S2: I think that's that's a that's highly contestable. Just keeping
39:18
S2: on green energy. I know you need it.
39:20
S3: Well, I'd love them to campaign on it. Let's have
39:21
S3: an argument because it's absurd. The whole thing is ridiculous.
39:23
S2: Well, why can't.
39:24
S3: The thing.
39:25
S2: You guys campaigned against the green energy agenda at the
39:27
S2: last election, particularly in regional areas where those offshore wind
39:30
S2: and there were no swings to your the.
39:32
S3: Way we supported net zero at the last election.
39:34
S2: That is true. So it wasn't as full throttle.
39:36
S3: The emperor has no clothes here, Paul. So we just
39:39
S3: have to push, push, push and, uh, it'll fall over
39:41
S3: on its own weight of absurdity.
39:42
S2: Under the last coalition government, there were several oil refineries
39:45
S2: that shut down. We're obviously having this big debate about self-sufficiency,
39:48
S2: given the crisis in the in the Middle East, several
39:52
S2: oil refineries shut down under the last coalition government. I
39:54
S2: was reading the 2018 article where you were at the
39:56
S2: Press Club, you know, eight years ago now talking about
39:59
S2: drilling off the Great Australian Bight that went nowhere. Why
40:02
S2: didn't you turn the tide on fossil fuels and green
40:05
S2: energy when you had the chance?
40:07
S3: Yeah, I had some successes, but I had losses as well.
40:11
S3: I don't know if you were around then, Paul, but
40:13
S3: certainly your political your, your newspaper outlets, the ABC ran
40:18
S3: a concerted campaign against fossil fuel extraction and, you know,
40:22
S3: well done. Congratulations. You won some of those debates. You
40:25
S3: did you run a campaign against them. And I'm not
40:27
S3: blaming you individually, but your masthead did. And so I'm
40:29
S3: not going to cop lectures from you, but from institutions
40:33
S3: that didn't support this back in the day. So I did.
40:35
S3: I had some wins. We got the Adani coal mine going.
40:38
S3: That's going very, very well and making a lot of
40:40
S3: money for our country, employing 2000 people. It's great. It's
40:42
S3: expanding now.
40:44
S2: Arguably lost Labour the 2019 election.
40:46
S3: Yeah that's right, that's right. Possibly. But but you know
40:50
S3: uh I didn't win the debates on, on on oil
40:54
S3: and gas extraction. Uh, clearly the, these activists, often foreign
40:58
S3: funded campaigns had an impact on the companies that operated
41:02
S3: in this area. They blame commercial factors, but there's no
41:05
S3: doubt the political environment played a huge role as well.
41:08
S2: Shareholders putting pressure on or there's that too.
41:11
S3: That's a slightly separate issue, but no doubt there's that too.
41:13
S3: Although that's not so much an issue for BP anymore.
41:16
S3: They're back to petroleum big time. Um, but, uh, and
41:19
S3: Equinor was in a different situation. Probably not so much
41:22
S3: the shareholder pressure, but definitely the local political environment was
41:24
S3: not conducive for them. And so, yeah, look, I, I
41:27
S3: didn't win that debate, but that doesn't mean I'm going
41:29
S3: to give up because, you know, the only solution for
41:32
S3: us long term here is to produce more liquid fuels domestically.
41:36
S3: We can, uh, definitely find new basins that will take
41:40
S3: some time, but we also have shorter and medium term
41:42
S3: options as well, like coal to liquids. We clearly should
41:45
S3: invest in sooner rather than later.
41:46
S2: I think it's totally plausible that this crisis will add
41:50
S2: weight to arguments for energy self-sufficiency. Energy of all types.
41:54
S2: I imagine there'll be a new debate about nuclear energy
41:56
S2: off the back of this. I do question, though, those
42:00
S2: making the argument for greater self-sufficiency with oil and other
42:04
S2: fossil fuels like yourself to leave out of that argument.
42:08
S2: The point that renewables are a form of energy.
42:13
S3: I totally agree.
42:14
S2: So does does the oil crisis make the case for
42:17
S2: greater renewables as well as other forms of energy?
42:19
S3: In theory, yes. The issue in practice. We've already done it.
42:22
S3: You know, we've probably got sort of at the limits
42:24
S3: of too much renewable energy in our grid. Most, you know,
42:27
S3: at least in the electricity grid.
42:28
S2: We're still nowhere near the targets. You'd argue the targets
42:31
S2: are way too high.
42:32
S3: Well that's right. What does that mean? The targets? Well,
42:35
S3: who came up with them?
42:36
S2: I don't think most.
42:38
S3: Economists would say we're.
42:39
S2: Near the upper range.
42:40
S3: So the problem is you look around the world, you
42:42
S3: look around the world. Paul, any country that starts getting
42:45
S3: above 30% penetration of solar and wind, and I'm talking
42:48
S3: about solar and wind, not hydroelectricity, not stuff that's not
42:52
S3: as variable, but there's variable renewable energy like solar and wind.
42:55
S3: If it gets above 30, definitely 40%. You have huge
42:57
S3: problems in your grid. Electricity prices go up. up. It's
43:00
S3: happened to every country.
43:01
S2: Where this trend.
43:02
S3: No it doesn't. It's got very high electricity prices. Um,
43:05
S3: I can show you the chart after this, but, uh,
43:08
S3: Denmark has the highest in the world on this chart
43:09
S3: at least. And it's got the highest solar and wind.
43:11
S3: It's a pretty constant, um, relationship. And so look, yeah,
43:16
S3: I'm not against renewables. I funded them when I was
43:18
S3: a Northern Australian minister. We funded the Kidston um hydro
43:22
S3: pumped hydro project which included solar panels. This places where
43:25
S3: they're appropriate to go, go through. But the situation is
43:28
S3: we're overweight, that type of energy right now and underweight
43:32
S3: energy that can always be relied on whether it's coal
43:34
S3: or nuclear or the like. I'd also add to this
43:36
S3: something you might find a bit strange for me. I mean,
43:38
S3: I love electric cars for a start and we should
43:40
S3: look to.
43:41
S2: You own a Tesla?
43:42
S3: No, I wanted to. We don't get the tax benefits. Politicians.
43:45
S2: You do have a navy though.
43:46
S3: No, no, no, because I want one. But but I
43:51
S3: went and I was going to get one. And then
43:53
S3: these stupid nova, it'll come to this ridiculous tax scheme
43:55
S3: that the government's put in place. But I'm like Kerry Packer,
43:57
S3: I'll use whatever I can to minimize my attacks. And
44:00
S3: I went to get it. And the politicians can't. So. So. No. Well,
44:03
S3: we don't get the benefits. You think.
44:05
S2: So? But do you.
44:05
S3: Accept? So I didn't get it because I don't like
44:07
S3: spending money on cars. The depreciating asset.
44:09
S2: But what car do you have?
44:10
S3: Oh, well, I've got a I've got a work one,
44:13
S3: a government one that's Toyota Landcruiser. That's that's that's my sins.
44:16
S3: And then to, to repent from my sins. I was
44:18
S3: going to get Tesla to replace the 15 year old
44:20
S3: Hyundai Santa Fe, which is definitely getting to the end
44:23
S3: of its life after five kids. But anyway, we're persisting
44:26
S3: with that at the moment and saving money. Um, so look,
44:30
S3: I'm all for going towards this. I just I really
44:33
S3: don't like the way the government's going about it. It is,
44:36
S3: I mean, it's not really middle class welfare. It's upper
44:38
S3: class welfare. Like I just told you, those attacks came
44:40
S3: as I said, I'd use it if it's available and
44:42
S3: I could do it for my own interest. But mate,
44:44
S3: I mean, why have we got a tax scheme which
44:46
S3: really only gives you a major benefit if you're on
44:48
S3: the top tax rate, the 50 cent tax rate, it's crazy.
44:51
S3: The people who potentially need the help to maybe buy
44:54
S3: a new electric car are people on on on battling incomes.
44:58
S3: And it's often these areas on the suburbs where the
44:59
S3: electric cars make more sense. Electric cars don't make a
45:01
S3: lot of sense in the inner city because it's very
45:02
S3: hard to charge them for that. But if you've got
45:05
S3: a shed, if you've got, that's what we would have done.
45:07
S3: Just charge overnight coal fired power, primarily. Great. Uh, but.
45:11
S2: More renewables given you just open the door.
45:13
S3: But they're not on at night.
45:15
S2: Well, most of them are. There's there's battery. That's what
45:17
S2: batteries are for. You roll your eyes. But I don't
45:20
S2: understand why you roll your eyes. There's clear science.
45:23
S3: Fair point. So so you can this is the other
45:25
S3: problem we've got, right. So, you know, at a household
45:28
S3: level you can put in some batteries solar, you can
45:32
S3: kind of get by. I wouldn't say it's very economic
45:34
S3: if you take out the tax benefits. I mean a
45:36
S3: battery system is 10 to $15,000. I mean your average
45:39
S3: electricity bill for families is roughly two. So even if
45:42
S3: you save half.
45:43
S2: These things are getting cheaper every day.
45:44
S3: Well, they're still pretty expensive. And and the government's again,
45:47
S3: the battery scheme's been a complete disaster. It's blown out
45:50
S3: $10 billion. But anyway, it's marginal whether that's economic or not.
45:53
S3: And it's a big upfront CapEx cost for poor and
45:56
S3: struggling families. But okay, I'll give you that. Maybe you
45:59
S3: can do that. The problem we've got is, um, businesses
46:03
S3: in Australia use four times the electricity that households do
46:07
S3: four times.
46:09
S2: It's one part of the equation. Yeah.
46:10
S3: This is the problem that people go, okay, I can
46:12
S3: do it my home. So why can't the smelter do it?
46:14
S3: Why can't the refinery do it? Uh, why can't we run?
46:17
S3: Why can't we have liquid fuels based on renewables? It
46:20
S3: doesn't scale. And, and, uh, that sort of demystifies thinking
46:25
S3: about energy has led us down a bunch of dead ends.
46:28
S3: So I'm not against that. I'm not like, go for
46:29
S3: your life if you want to do that. As I say,
46:32
S3: I don't like giving large amounts of taxpayer subsidies to
46:35
S3: rich people. They don't need it. Uh, any any subsidies
46:38
S3: we provide on this front should be given to and
46:40
S3: skewed towards poorer and middle class families, probably middle class families. Uh,
46:45
S3: but but still, it's only one part of the equation.
46:48
S3: It can't. I mean, we can't electrify our entire economy
46:53
S3: and still well have the living stones we have. But
46:56
S3: more importantly, even just defend ourselves.
46:57
S2: Even Labour acknowledges the need for gas to be part
47:00
S2: of the system for a long time. Just finally, we've
47:02
S2: gone way over time, so I imagine they're going to
47:03
S2: cut a lot of your good content. If I don't
47:05
S2: wrap up, I'll just. Yeah, I'll wrap up on a
47:08
S2: personal note, something I don't think you've talked about much
47:11
S2: since coming to the leadership is your personal faith. You're
47:13
S2: a devout Catholic. How much does your religion influence your
47:18
S2: way of viewing policy solutions and political questions?
47:23
S3: Maybe in a few ways. I think most importantly, it's
47:25
S3: my attitude and maybe I'm too carefree and but particularly
47:30
S3: taking on like it's a big burden responsibility, being leader
47:33
S3: of a political party. But I found my faith a
47:36
S3: great degree of strength. Look, God's got a plan. And,
47:39
S3: you know, I, I just, just do my best to, to, uh,
47:43
S3: work within that. So don't stress too much. I remember
47:46
S3: when I did tell you I had that citizenship issue.
47:50
S3: I'm very, very lucky. I was reading the Bible in
47:52
S3: a year. It took me about three years to read,
47:53
S3: but did do it. And just before it happened, I
47:55
S3: read the sermon on the Mount where God, which is
47:57
S3: Jesus Christ, was God saying that, uh, you know, God
48:00
S3: looks after the birds and looks after the flowers. You've
48:03
S3: got nothing to worry about. And that put me in
48:04
S3: a very Zen state. And I was telling my wife
48:06
S3: this as we're driving down the road a couple of
48:08
S3: days after I was in the High Court, and, uh,
48:11
S3: my wife kind of lost it and said, well, Jesus
48:13
S3: can't pay our mortgage. It's a fair point. It's a
48:16
S3: fair point. Uh, it brought me back to reality, but
48:18
S3: it does mean a lot to me. My faith in
48:20
S3: the attitude I bring to things. Look, in terms of
48:23
S3: policy questions, I suppose the, uh, there is an ethical
48:28
S3: underpinning to Christianity that I think is very important to
48:31
S3: our culture, whether you believe in God or not. And
48:33
S3: that's rooted primarily in the idea that there's a natural law.
48:36
S3: You don't have to be religious to believe in a
48:38
S3: natural law form of ethics. But if you do, uh,
48:41
S3: you generally will subscribe to views like I expressed earlier
48:45
S3: on this podcast, that every human being is sacred and
48:48
S3: has individual merit. And that's an underpinning, I would say,
48:51
S3: of our Christian society. It comes from Christian teachings. I
48:58
S3: would argue that that the, um, the Catholic principle of
49:01
S3: auto amoris is a very important conservative principle. Um, the
49:06
S3: idea that that society is best well ordered when you,
49:08
S3: we look after our immediate area first and then have
49:13
S3: kind of concentric circles out from that. So, so look
49:16
S3: after your own family, your own backyard, do that and
49:20
S3: then we'll have a better society and community and country.
49:23
S3: Whereas I would argue sometimes not all, but sometimes on
49:26
S3: the left side of politics, there's a tendency to say,
49:28
S3: let's fix, you know, the starving poor in Africa. And, um, and,
49:33
S3: and we sort of forget about, you know, the people
49:35
S3: that are, that are doing it tough in our own country.
49:37
S3: And finally, I suppose the other Catholic principle of subsidiarity,
49:40
S3: which is partners that principle of auto omaris, but the
49:43
S3: idea that we should seek to devolve political power to
49:46
S3: the smallest political unit possible, um, if you want to know, like,
49:50
S3: you know, a big influence on my politics is Rerum
49:52
S3: Novarum um, which is an encyclical in around 1890, which did,
49:58
S3: I think, very neatly marry, uh, the emerging industrial world
50:03
S3: with broad Christian principles. And it does mean looking after
50:07
S3: the poor and the downtrodden. Uh, but, but also not
50:11
S3: going full Marxist like I did in my misspent youth.
50:15
S2: Uh, I was going to ask about your views on abortion. Right?
50:18
S2: You made a pretty narrow argument against one form of
50:21
S2: one part of the abortion debate being the born alive question.
50:24
S2: What's your view on mainstream abortion laws in most states?
50:28
S2: Are you are you against those laws?
50:30
S3: Well, look, it's a state issue, so I'm not, uh,
50:33
S3: it's not going to be part of our platform. It
50:35
S3: never would be in any case, because we've always taken
50:38
S3: a conscience position on these issues, which I fully support.
50:41
S3: So every member of the nationals party, and it's true
50:43
S3: for Liberal Party as well, is, uh, has has the
50:47
S3: right to come forward with their own particular perspectives on this.
50:50
S3: They'll never form part of our platform.
50:51
S2: But you.
50:52
S3: Uncomfortable? Something I'll push as leader. As leader. Uh, look,
50:55
S3: one thing that happened to me during the babies born
50:58
S3: alive debate is that I moved. That's the one thing
51:00
S3: I've moved a bill on that in any way relates
51:02
S3: to this issue. It doesn't actually change any abortion practices
51:07
S3: or laws. It just provides care for babies that are
51:09
S3: born alive during a termination procedure or after a termination procedure. Um, yeah. Look,
51:13
S3: one thing that sort of affected me a bit is
51:15
S3: we had an inquiry on that. And it's the first
51:17
S3: time I really spoke to doctors who conduct terminations and um,
51:23
S3: and yeah, you can go and read the transcript, but the, the,
51:27
S3: the description of how late term abortions occur is a
51:29
S3: little bit concerning some of the chemicals they used. We
51:31
S3: don't use on animals. Um, we know, we know foetus
51:36
S3: is at a, at a late stage can feel pain.
51:39
S3: They respond to stimuli. They laugh. Um, they're pretty human. And, uh, and,
51:44
S3: and so I, think we're in this situation where we
51:49
S3: don't like talking about it as much because it's very,
51:51
S3: very hard to to handle. But the fact that we
51:54
S3: don't like talking about it probably probably raises some issues
51:58
S3: about do we really think that's right? Uh, and so
52:02
S3: just to be clear, that that is a late term
52:04
S3: abortions and how that occurs. And I know they're not,
52:07
S3: they're well, they're not. They do happen. They're not, they're
52:10
S3: not the majority of cases or anything like that.
52:12
S2: Some of the critics in this case say that on
52:14
S2: this matter, say that proponents advocates on this issue, like yourself,
52:18
S2: overstate the extent to which this occurs dramatically over.
52:21
S3: Well, I don't know if it was if if it's
52:24
S3: what I was described to me, if it's one case,
52:27
S3: it's pretty, pretty horrific to think about. But yeah, so look,
52:30
S3: as I say, it's deeply uncomfortable. But that usually on
52:33
S3: moral questions, if you find yourself being a little bit
52:35
S3: uncomfortable speaking about it, explaining it, it's probably an issue there.
52:39
S3: But as I say, it's a matter for the states.
52:40
S3: It's not going to come up. Um, this particular issue
52:44
S3: is not going to come up at the federal level.
52:45
S3: But yeah, that's my position. That's my honest. Honest view.
52:49
S2: Politics for this episode, maybe theology for the next.
52:51
S3: One. I love that. I love that epistemology too. I've
52:54
S3: actually written, I wrote a Senate committee report where quoted
52:57
S3: Plato and, uh, Thomas Kuhn. Uh, so yeah, that was
53:03
S3: my last one as a backbencher. So I'm impressed by that.
53:07
S2: Well, you've got a you've got, you've got a post
53:08
S2: politics career in the academy.
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S3: Yeah. It won't pay. We'll pay that as well as this.
53:12
S2: Thank you for joining us. I appreciate.
53:13
S3: It. Cheers.
53:20
S1: You can rate all of our political news on our websites,
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S1: theage.com.au or the Smh.com.au. Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong.
53:28
S1: Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcast are
53:31
S1: overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. Before you go,
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S1: follow Inside Politics and leave a review for us on
53:36
S1: Apple or Spotify. I'm Paul Cicchini, thanks for listening.