Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / UNDERCOVER: THE COP WHO LIVED A LIE

Transcript

UNDERCOVER: THE COP WHO LIVED A LIE · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Apoche Production. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: your host, Adam Shand. For two years, Queensland police officer
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Jason Somerville lived a double life. To his colleagues, he
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: was a young policeman working to bring down some of
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Brisbane's most dangerous drug dealers. But to the criminals he befriended,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: he was Michael Bates. a small-time heroin dealer looking to
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: make his fortune in the underworld. His survival depended on
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: his ability to lie, manipulate and convince hardened criminals that
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: he was one of them. He bought drugs, infiltrated criminal
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: syndicates and even obtained a confession from an accused double
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: murderer while sharing a police cell. But the greatest danger
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily that someone would discover he was a cop.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: It was that he might lose himself in the identity
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: he'd created. Because when you spend years deceiving people, winning
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: their trust, and constantly looking over your shoulder, those habits
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: don't simply disappear when the operation ends. And for Somerville,
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: the psychological toll would follow him long after he returned
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: to ordinary police duties, affecting his relationships, his marriage, and
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: his ability to trust the world around him. His new book, Undercurrent,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: The Hidden Cost of Going Undercover, is a revealing account
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: of the dangerous, morally complicated, and often absurd world of
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: undercover policing. Today, we're going behind the disguise to explore
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: what it really takes to live as a criminal, the
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: price of betraying people who trust you, and what happens
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: when the role you've been playing begins to take over
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: your life. Jason Somerville, welcome to Real Crime.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Adam.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: You were a failed drama student who found, I guess,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: his vocation in undercover policing. How did it begin?
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Undercover policing?
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: Well, I was out one night, you know, as most
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: young people do, drinking with my friends and my then-fiancé
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: and I had an argument and her and her friends left.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: And so I got the socks and jumped in the
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: cab and went home. And on the way home, the
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: taxi driver said to me, hey, You look, I've had
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: a bad night.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: So I explained it to him.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: And he said, Oh, do you want something to sort
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: of help cheer you up?
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: What do you mean?
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: And he said, you know, some speed or some ecstasy
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: or something like that. And I went thinking to myself,
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: so back, you know, we're talking 92, 93.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: I looked like a copper.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: There was a certain way, and even so now, there
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: was a certain way that coppers looked. I even had
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: my badge in my back pocket so much that my
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: jeans had the shape in the back pocket of where
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: my badge was. So it was like, dude, can't you
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: see I'm a copper? Anyway, I took his details. He
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: dropped me off. I made sure he didn't drop me
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: off at home. He dropped me off around the corner.
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: took his details, sent it into Crime Ops, get a
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: call saying, hey, do you want to do a by-bust?
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: I was like, sure, what's a by-bust? And went and
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: did the by-bust. Then they said there's a course, apply
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: for it, so I did. The next thing you know,
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: I'm rocking up to the Police Academy of all places
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: to learn how to not be a police officer.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because you'd, as I said at the beginning, you
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: had wanted to be an actor. Yes. And you'd gone
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: to university for that and you'd flunked. And so policing became...
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: I don't know, flunked is the right word. Let's say
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: I had too much of a good time. I did
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: a similar thing doing arts at Sydney University, so I
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: can empathise there before I found my vocation, really, such
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: as it is. But policing was an accidental career choice.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: But getting into undercover work suited your personality, funnily enough.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Yes, it did.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, very much so. We had to do testing when
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: we went... you know, through the course and that sort
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: of stuff. And it's the same testing that the FBI
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: use in the States to work out who's going to
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: be good at it and who's not, et cetera. And
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: they're cutting edge when it comes to that sort of stuff,
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: or they were back then anyway. And we're talking over
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: 35 years ago now. And the psychological profile of a
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: good undercover police officer is almost the exactly same as
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: someone who is a psychopath or a sociopath. except for
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: the fact that they have very high EQ and very
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: high understanding of what justice is and right and wrong
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: and that sort of stuff. But other than that, had
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: the pendulum swung a little bit the other way, I
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: could be a psychopath.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: Which is scary. Maybe that's in the future. Maybe that's
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: another career later on, corporate executive or something. But I
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: think you've also discovered in the training process that that
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: it wasn't necessarily the big tough coppers, the brave guys,
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: it was the people who could remain calm and think
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: their way through those situations that did the best.
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's interesting because when I got sworn in,
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: I think I weighed 69 kilos.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: I was a skinny, tall kid.
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: I wasn't much bigger when I went undercover. So I
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: was not imposing. I was not anyone who was going to,
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: use my size or my machoism to make someone not
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: hurt me. I was going to have to rely on
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: my ability to be able to talk my way out
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: of whatever situation I got myself into. So I had
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: to talk my way into it. And then if things
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: went bad, I was going to have to talk my
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: way out of it.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: Interesting. And part of the course was sitting down and
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: watching Tarantino's film Reservoir Dogs. And you referenced a great,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: one of my favourites actually, with Mr Orange, Tim Roth.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: is working out how he's going to become an undercover.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: And he's pretty much told by his mate that you
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: have to learn the lines to a certain extent, but
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: then own them, feel them, and put your spin on them.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: Your spin was to create a character called Michael Bates. Yes.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: Where did he come from?
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: Just going back to that point in regards to taking
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: a story and putting it on. So people have always
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: said that the best lies... have an element of truth
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: in them. And the reason behind that is when you're
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: put under pressure, you need to have something that you
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: can remember without having to go, nah, nah, nah. And
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: so if you put truth through it, it gives you
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: the ability then for your brain to process, to be
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: able to go, okay, so this is the truth now.
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: This is what I have to remember the lie is.
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: So my then fiance's ex-boyfriend's name was Michael.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: So I wanted a name.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: That if someone called it out, I would turn around
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: at no matter what. And this particular person and I
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: didn't have a... There was no love lost between us.
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: And so I knew if someone called out Michael, I
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: was going to turn around no matter what, just out
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: of habit.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: And so that's why I went with Michael.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: And what about the rest of the character? I mean,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: he was... There was an elaborate construction there. What was
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: his background? What was he doing? How much... thought and
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: effort did you put into that persona?
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: Depends on which job I was working on and which
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: informant or which target I was working with. Michael Bates
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: was who he needed to be for the person that
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: he was dealing with. And I guess that comes back
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: to the psychological point of view in regards to the
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: fact that Your traditional psychopath is supposed to be charming
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: and charismatic and they get people on side by being
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: the person that that person needs them to be. So
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: working undercover, you have to be the person that your
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: target needs you to be.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: If the target.
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: Needed me to be a subservient whatever, then that's what
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: I was. As in one of the jobs, I was
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: pretending to be the gay lover of the informant and
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: the target, was, you know, someone who was very, very
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: top dog, I had to pretend to be somewhat subservient.
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: In another operation, I had to be the tough person
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: that don't tell me that I'm telling you what to do.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: You don't do that. I'm in charge. You're not. So
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: it depended on.
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: What the target needed me to be or needed Michael
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: to be as to who I was in any particular situation.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: Now, your experience has come from the 90s. I think
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: there's been a general acceptance of that period and earlier
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: that there weren't sufficient guardrails around undercover work and that
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: often the operative was pushed out there. He or she
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: was quite expendable in the circumstances. What controls or disciplines
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: were you subjected to by your superiors?
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: So when I joined.
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: So obviously I joined the police in 91, which was
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: just after the Fitzgerald inquiry. I was one of the
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: first 400 that went through the new breed of police
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: officer or.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: Muppets, as we were called.
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: That's most useless police personnel ever trained for those that
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: aren't police and don't know the saying. There was another,
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: Queensland just loved having Royal Commissions at that particular point
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: in time. And there was another Royal Commission into something else.
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: And there was a whole bunch of undercovers that got
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: dragged into it. And there's a famous scene outside the
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: CMC or the CJC or the CCC, whatever it was
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: back then, where one of them turned up wearing a
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: Grim Reaper costume. and walking into the commission wearing the
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: Grim Reap costume to give his evidence. So because of that,
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: they made some changes around. how much control how much
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: supervision ucs had in regards to so i had a
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: full-time controller i would check in with him or her
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: either every day or at least every couple of days
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: every time a buy was done You know, I would
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: go straight to meet up with them to give them
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: the drugs or the property or whatever it is I'd
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: been buying. No drug testing and psychological assistance was three
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: one-hour sessions after I'd done my two years. They changed
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: it then to you could only do two years and
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: then you were out.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: So because I found.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: Some of the people who had gone astray to the
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: point of ending up in jail with drug dealing, armed robbery,
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: what have you. I think there was a fellow that
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: was down in South Australia that got done for armed robbery.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: There was a couple up in Queensland that had got
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: done for large quantity drug dealing. They had been undercover
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: for a very long time without a lot of supervision.
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: They were just pushed out and told, off you go,
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: go and do it. They changed that slightly when I
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: went through. They'd had the course. They had some guardrails
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: in place. But still, you know, it wasn't as strict,
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: I guess, as it is today from.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: What I understand. It was still a bit of the
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: way out west type situation.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which, I mean, but at the same time, you've
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: got all the other disciplines that are upon you as
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: a police officer. I think some people might be surprised
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: to know that there's not less paperwork. There's probably more
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: involved in being a UC because you are telling lies habitually.
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: You are creating identities, manipulating situations that eventually have to
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: see their way into a court where your credibility, your
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: statements all have to be ticked off because they can
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: destroy a prosecution.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: That's correct.
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: So I would go out and do a buy and Now,
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: if I had a tape, I'd come home and write
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: up my notes and refer to the tape. And then
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: at some stage, I had to sit down and listen
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: to it and transcribe it. Or I would come home
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: and I would write out the conversation, the notes of
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: everything that I happened into one of those big sort
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: of notebooks every time. And that could take two hours,
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: three hours, depending on what happened. And, you know, it's
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: probably no wonder I ended up writing a book because
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: I spent a lot of time writing a book when
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: I was working undercover, to be perfectly honest. It's a
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: shame that I don't, you know, don't have access to
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: those notebooks because they would make some great further on stories.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, you have to do it. It was really interesting.
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: One of the jobs I was in, we went to
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: court and the job was still on.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Something happened.
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: I can't remember what happened. Or maybe there were other
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: court cases going on. The magistrate said to us, we're
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: going to take that notebook off you.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: Well, you can't because I need it for other court cases.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: Don't care. We're going to take it off you just
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: in case you change your notes.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: And it's like, righto. So they've taken the notebook off us.
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: And we've gone to another thing. They said, well, where's
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: the notebook? Well, the other magistrate took it off us.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: And so that magistrate then had to say, well, no,
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: you've got to get the notebook back. And it becomes
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: a whole, you know, because everything, the court case revolves
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: around that notebook.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. It's evidence. You know, I think you're fast removing
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: whatever glamour there is around being a UC. One of
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: the stories that I really enjoyed reading in the book
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: was being placed in the cell of double murderer, Edwin Lewis.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: He killed a wealthy Melbourne couple. Paul and Carmel Higgins,
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: the parents of former ABC weatherman Paul Higgins. And for
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: that job, Michael Bates hadn't been created and you actually
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: went in with your real name.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: And that's an interesting one. Tell us how that evolved.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: You were on crutches at the time.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: I was on crutches.
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: So I did the course and a 94 and I
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: was waiting for a spot to come up in the
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: COVID unit in 95. And the World Police and Fire
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: Games were on in Melbourne in 1995. And I went
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: to that and was sailing. And I broke my ankle
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: in three places. So I had an operation, had a
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: cast on it. And I get back and they said, oh,
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: you can't start. You've got a broken ankle. So I
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: had to wait eight weeks. And the first job that
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: came in was this cell job because Edwin had gone
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: and killed two people in Melbourne, driven a car up
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: to the Gold Coast and got caught. So I was literally,
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: you know, on crutches and then hobbling into the cell. Now,
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: I knew he was a double murderer, but I didn't
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: realize that he was also an expert in martial arts
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: and was a trainer, a fighter. Yeah, yeah.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: He was also a con man. So he trained fighters
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: He was also a con man. So he had a …
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: An elevated, you know... Opinion of himself? Opinion of himself,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: but also emotional intelligence. And these people do have that.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: That's something that they do. They're students of human nature.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: So from a physical point of view, a psychological point
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: of view, the stakes are very high here.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: And yes, they were. And so I've gone in there and,
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: you know, I've sort of hobbled in. And that immediately.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: bonded with him in the sense that that was something
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: that he was able to say to me and he
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: was able to give me advice he was able to
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: show that he was the good person to me if
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: that makes sense he was able to to be I'm
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: I'm someone you need because I can give you the
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: you know I can I can help you that that
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: sort of thing so there was that bonding there and
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: it was kind of surreal because People who read the book,
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: and I've since developed a TV pilot for it, and
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: people read it and they go, yeah, that happened too quick.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: That's not real. And it's like, no, it did. It
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: happened that quickly that I said to him, you know,
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: why are you in here for? You don't have to
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: tell me. And he just blurted it out. I killed someone,
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: then I killed someone else. And I went, ah, okay.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: The thing about my name, he said to me, because
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: I said to him, he asked me what my name was, what.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: I was in for. And I had no idea anything
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: other than to say, Jason.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: And when we got to court, the defense barrister was
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: saying to me, you know, you were lying to my client.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: You told him your name was Jason. And I went, yeah,
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: my name is Jason. He went, oh, probably should have
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: read the statement a little bit better.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: And the jury were laughing. And I thought, okay, that's
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: a win for me.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: It was a really long process. I think there were
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: five trials. And I think you actually gave evidence after
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: you'd finished your undercover career. And you ended up being
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: instrumental in his being found guilty. He got 26 years
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: in prison with a 21 non-parole period. That was 1998.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: So I'm not sure, is he out yet? And I wonder,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: how do you feel about the people that you helped
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: put in jail who nearly a generation later, back out
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: on the streets.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know if he is out on the street.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: I would assume he is.
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: Other than Edwin, I think the longest anyone got was
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: six to ten years. So they've been out a long time.
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: So if they were looking for me, I dare say
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: they would have found me by now. Does it worry me?
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: The only time doing any of this really worried me
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: was when I was watching Blue Murder. one night whilst
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: I was working undercover and realising that I had the
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: front blind up and the lights on and anyone could
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: see me from the street. And I just had someone
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: sort of, you know, park outside the house that my
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: neighbour had sort of.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: Said, you know, what are you doing in a polite,
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: bikey way.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: But that was the only time I really felt scared
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: about someone coming to get me. And, you know, let's
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: face it, in Blue Murder, that was a fairly audacious...
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: hit on a police officer i don't know if that
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: had happened again.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: Well it's happened once it can happen again and in
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: that case mick drury who i know personally i mean
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: he never really got over that and um it was
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: just very lucky that he wasn't killed then and uh
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: he likes to say now that he's never done the
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: washing up since because that's what he was doing when
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: when when either roger rogerson or christopher dale flannery shot
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: him through the window But just about the worst thing
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: you could have watched as an undercover officer, how did
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: it play on your psyche, the whole thing? And you
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: had a fiancée who became your wife.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: Michael Bates began to loom a lot larger in your psyche. Yes.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: And I think, I'll even jump even further than that,
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: I think you started to like being Michael Bates.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, definitely.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: Michael Bates was freedom. Now, not that I necessarily wanted freedom.
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: but Michael Bates was freedom and that was addictive because
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: Michael Bates, and when I say he could do whatever
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: he wanted, of course, I was still bound by the
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: laws of things that I had to do, but I
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: could play at doing whatever I wanted to do. So
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: I could buy drugs and not get in trouble for it.
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: I could pretend to be a badass and not get
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: in trouble for it. I could pretend All those things
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: and not get in trouble for it so long as
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: I didn't step over the line. So it became addictive.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: It became I could be Michael. You know, even when
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: I went out with the boys, I was still Michael.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: I wasn't Jason.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: And that changed.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: You lose yourself.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: You talk about the line. I think in undercover work,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: the line is not always straight. It's a bit squiggly,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: particularly when you start to think about the public interest.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: If you've got a strong sense of justice, undercovers can
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: justify almost anything in the service of that. Obviously, you've
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: got to explain it later. But also, I think the
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: confidence that builds when you've succeeded in deceiving people, succeeded
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: in doing these by bus, succeeded in creating these relationships,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: you'd be thinking, what's the next one? How can I
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: do better the next time? What's my personal best? How
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: can I surpass that?
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, subconsciously, I would say definitely, almost to the point
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: where you possibly subconsciously go, what more danger can I
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: get myself in? What can I do that's a little
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: bit more dangerous? How close to the wind can I fly?
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: Not necessarily illegally. I was very much right and wrong.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: My mother was a lawyer. My mother was a barrister.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: So I've been... Sorry, your mother?
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: You had two mothers there? You had two mothers there? Sorry,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: you just said.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: Sorry, my mother was a lawyer and a barrister. So
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: my queen's counsel, she became. And when I was growing up,
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: she was going to law school or she was going
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: to university doing her law degree whilst I was growing up.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: And when I graduated high school, she graduated law. So,
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: you know, I... grew up with a lot of people.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: Who mum was friends with who were lawyers. So I
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: had a very strong understanding of, right and wrong, how
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: far you could push the law but never step over it.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: But it's still addictive to try and get to that line.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. At the same time, you're getting an insight into
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: the lives of these small-time drug dealers whom you're setting up.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: And I guess it's almost inevitable that you start to think, well,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: these people aren't too bad. Like your mate, one of
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: your marks was Buzz. He was a middle-aged guy who
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: was quite likable and you started to like him. I
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: guess it also starts to creep in this idea, well,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: I'm busting them for small amounts of gear potentially. Am
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: I really making a difference here? All this risk and
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: all this stuff, is it really going to be something
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: worthwhile at the end of the day?
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: And that's a fair question.
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: The only problem, I guess the alternate to that is
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: that my personal opinion, having drugs as a crime is
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: probably not the best utilisation of policing resources. But it
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: is what it is and we're not going to change
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: that for the time being. That said, the people who
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: are at the top of the chain are a lot smarter,
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: a lot more sneaky. And the only way to get
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: there is by using the people at the bottom and
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: the mid of the chain to get into them. So
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: it's one of those practicalities or pragmatic views of the
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: world where you go, you're doing something wrong. You've been caught.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: We'll give you the option to reduce your thing by
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: you getting us up the chain. So in that sense,
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: So you can look at it two ways. Yes, I
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: was grabbing people that realistically were paying for their own
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: habit or middlemen. Does that make a big impact or
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: a big indent? You can argue whether it does or
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: it doesn't. But by taking some of them down, you
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: then get the step up to the next levels, which
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: is what you want to dismantle the actual mid to
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: top levels and And let's not be naive about it.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: The minute you do that, someone else comes in and
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: takes their place. But at least it's doing something.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: That's true. And there's not much more the police officer
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: can do. The other line that I think is interesting
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: is I interviewed a former drug dealer recently who was
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: busted by undercovers. He started selling to three or four undercovers.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: His name wasn't Buzz, was it?
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: No, it wasn't Buzz. No. You can look it up
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: on the site. Jamie Birchall is actually, his interview is there.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: And he had a situation where he believed he was
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: dealing with an undercover. So he said in front of
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: them with a gun in his hand, well, you'll have
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: to use some of the product to show me that
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: you're not undercover. And so the cop had to use
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: some of the product. And I think he navigated that
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: territory as well, where, yes, you had the long hair,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: you had the goatee, looked like Fabio with a little
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: goatee or something, but you weren't a drug user.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: No.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: So how did you deal with that situation?
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: Again, like I said at the beginning, the ability to
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: be able to talk your way into situations and talk
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: your way out of situations. Now, luckily, no one ever
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: pulled a gun on me and told me to do it.
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: In that instance, I probably would have, and God knows
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: where I've been out. The one thing I knew about
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: myself going into all of this was that I had
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: an addictive personality. So I knew that genetically or whatever,
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: I had an addictive personality. So I had to be very,
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: very careful not to do something that was going to
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: cause me personally harm down the track.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: And I was very self-aware of that.
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: But I had, you know, Buzz was one of them
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: said to me, I've never seen you use, I want
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: you to use. So I rationalized it by saying, well,
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: if I use now, and I'm driving home with the gear,
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: and I get caught, and I'm still out of it,
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: I'm going to tell them I got it for you,
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: aren't I?
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: You know, that sort of thing.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: And, of course, Buzz didn't seem to have a car,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: so he was relying upon you to get him around
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: in these situations. So that was a good ploy, good
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: ploy indeed.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's the thing.
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: You sort of say to them, you know, I don't
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: want to get caught, and you make the inflammation that
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: if you get caught, it's going to be their fault.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: And therefore, you might have no choice but to give
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: them up.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you wonder what happened to some of these
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: marks that you were working with? Do you wonder how
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: they went in the end?
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: Do I wonder? I'd be interested to know.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: I do know that one of them, there's a story
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: of me buying heroin off her. She was a prostitute
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: in New Farm. And she lived right opposite New Farm.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: primary school. And many years later, when I was working
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: as a police officer in the early 2000s in Woodridge,
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: in Logan, in Brisbane, I actually had to go and
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: execute a warrant on her to take her to jail.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: And she didn't even remember me, had no idea who
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: I was, other than the policeman was coming to lock
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: her up. So I knew where she went. Look, I
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: would suggest that the majority of people that I bought
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: drugs from are either dead or in jail or in
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: and out of jail, and I know that most of
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: my informants are dead.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Sad reality of that world. But I guess if there
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: is anybody out there who dealt with Michael Bates, let
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: me know. I'd be interested to know. I'm sure Jason
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: would as well. Get in touch, adamshandwriter at gmail.com. You
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: had two years of this role, and it was automatically,
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: that was the limit you could do. Yep. What was
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: the back end like, coming out and being reintegrated into
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: the force again, back into uniform?
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: It was quite funny going back because I had a
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: nose ring and those sorts of stuff. So I had
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: to take out the nose ring, I had to take
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: out the earrings, I shaved my goatee or shaved my
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: beard or whatever I was having, sporting at the time.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: And I went and did a course at the academy
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: straight away. So I went and did an investigative skills
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: course to become a detective or what have you. And
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: that was okay because I just stepped out and I
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: didn't have to wear a uniform. I was in plain
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: clothes and everyone was like, oh, tell me the stories,
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: tell me the stories, tell me the stories.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Everyone loved hearing the stories.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: But then I went back to City Station and I
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: got given a training officer to train.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: Me, you know, to help me reintegrate back into the police.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: Now, he was, I don't know whether you... whether you'd
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: ever heard of the Pink and Bar Six up here
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: in Brisbane in the late 90s. So he was one
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: of the Pink and Bar Six, which I thought that's
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: a great way to get reintroduced back into his penances
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: to bring an undercover police officer, reintegrate them back into
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: uniform policing.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: But he was really, really good.
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: He taught me a lot about going back into policing.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: But it was senior sergeants and above, and they were like,
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: you know, I know that you're just a burnout druggie.
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: I know that you're used to swanning around not in uniform.
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: If you do any of that shit here, you're out.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: In your ear. I'm keeping an eye on you. And
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: it was like, well, hang on a second.
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: I've just spent two years putting myself in danger to
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: catch people. And I'm coming back here and you're telling
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: me that I'm not even a real policeman. And that
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: sort of has an adverse effect on you.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Well, you could have turned back and said the same
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: thing then. The Pinkenbar Six was, of course, a group
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: of Queensland coppers who were accused of abducting three Indigenous
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: lads in 1994, and they weren't jailed. No. It's no
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: wonder you need Royal Commissions up in Queensland now from
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: time to time.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: The story that journalists like to put in and what
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: really happened.
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: The truth is somewhere in between and it's not as
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: bad as what everyone made out, but it's also not
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: as good as what could have happened. But there's a
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: lot of grey in that black and white.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: And there usually is. We make no allegations. They weren't
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: jailed and that's where it rested. But I think in
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: our discussion before the interview, I think you realised that
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: policing was pretty much over for you. It was only
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: a matter of time before... you moved on what was
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: the realization was there a moment that became clear there.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Was i.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: Was working in in logan again i don't know why
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: but i had an affinity to go back to logan
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: and work in logan myself you'd be busy well that's
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: and that's probably it if you look at my career
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: as to where i went and worked after undercover i
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: could have gone anywhere and i went to logan.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: After something else, I worked somewhere else.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: I could have gone anywhere. I went to Mount Isa.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: After Mount Isa, I could have gone anywhere. I went
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: to Logan. Anyway, so we've arrested a fella at a
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: car accident because the car he was driving was stolen.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: And.
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: My partner very much wanted to be a traffic cop.
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: God knows why, but he did. So he charged him
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: with all the traffic stuff. He was also wanted on
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: a fail-to-appear warrant. So I arrested him on the fail-to-appear warrant,
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: locked him up, got him on tape saying, yes, it's me,
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: all those sorts of things, lock him up. His partner
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: rings up and makes a complaint that he was unlawfully arrested. Now, ostensibly,
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: he was put in the watch house on the fail-to-appear warrant.
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: So because of everything that happened in the, you know,
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: 100 years before I got to that point, it had
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: to be investigated. You couldn't just go, well, it's a
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: failed to appear warrant. You've got to lock him up.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: He said, yes, it's him. It has to be investigated.
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: So they had to talk to him. They said, don't
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: worry about it. We'll talk to him at court. They
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: got to court. He'd already been given bail to come
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: back in two weeks time. So they rock up in
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: two weeks time and guess what?
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: He failed to appear.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: So because the actual complaint The underlying crime was deprivation
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: of liberty. It was something that was serious, so they
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: couldn't just write it off. You're not allowed to just
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: write it off. I couldn't get promoted. I couldn't do anything.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: So I started to go, well, what's the point? I
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: didn't do anything wrong, but you've got this thing and
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: it can't get finished. until he gets arrested and then
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: they have to get notified that he's been arrested so
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: they can go and interview him it's not a simple
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: matter of he gets arrested you know there has to
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: be a process to get there so and then one
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: day I'm sitting at home reading the newspaper I think
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: I'd just been to South America for two for eight
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: weeks and there's a an ad in the newspaper full
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: page ad says do you like to travel I went
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: yes said we'll join flight center and I went all
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: right applied and Took long service leave to see if
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: I liked it.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: And on the day after the Bali bombings, started at
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: flight center.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: There you go. So life is lived in several chapters.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: And I think you've certainly, your life's conformed to that idea. Yeah.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: But the undercover work and policing generally, it does take
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: a toll on relationships. Your fiance became your wife. And
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: over that period, the relationship deteriorated to the point where
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: you got a divorce. Do you blame Michael Bates for
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: that or Jason Somerville?
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, no, the blame's all mine.
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: You know, saying I blame Michael Bates would be saying
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: I don't understand what happened. And I understand very well
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: what happened. You know, it's funny. I keep in contact
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: with her father and she reached out because she got...
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: She either listened to the podcast or she got a
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: copy of the book and said, I didn't realise what
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: you were going through. She said, it's still no excuse
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: for you being a four-letter word, but... I didn't realise
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: what you were going through. So the blame lies with me.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: And we're not talking, you know, there was no violence
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: or anything like that. I was just not there because
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: I was having too much fun being Michael Bates and
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: too much fun pretending that my life wasn't mine.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: And, yeah, so my responsibility fully.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Good. I like to hear that from men. You've taken
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: a long time to write the book. This experience was
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: in the 90s. This book's come out in July 2026. Yes.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Is there a little bit of resolving the residual experiences
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: and conflicts in your own psyche about the work you
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: did back then in this book?
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, look, it's part of a bigger, I guess, a
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: bigger issue. So I left the police in 2004 thinking
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: I was fine, that there was no unresolved issues, that,
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: you know, I was just out and blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: It wasn't until last year.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: Where I had a huge meltdown at my current work.
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: That I realized that maybe I didn't escape as unscathed
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: as I.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: Thought I did.
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: So the book, so I'd done the podcast, uh, about
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: working undercover because I wanted to leave a story.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: That was your own podcast.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah. My own podcast. Yeah.
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: So, uh, My son knew what was going on, like
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: had something to refer to in the future.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean?
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: That there was always something to say, okay, well, this
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: is what I went through. Personally, I thought maybe to
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: make a good TV series, a bit like Boy Swallows Universe,
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: that sort of thing, the real stuff, not stingers, but
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: something real. And once I sort of got to the
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: point where, so I've written all the script for the podcast.
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: And once I had this breakdown and realized that, I
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: was affected, maybe not by PTS, affected by PTS.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: So not diagnosed, but post-traumatic stress.
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: And I was having a conversation with someone about this
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: and it's, don't like to call it PTSD because why
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: is a mental health issue a disorder, but something else
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: that takes you off work is just an illness. So,
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: you know, From now on, I'm going to refer to
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: it just as PTS, you know, post-traumatic stress, because.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: It's an illness. It is an illness.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: I was lying in bed and I got to the
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: point where I said, that's it, I'm tapping out. Rang
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: my family doctor, who I've been seeing since I was eight.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: Got the help I needed, got put on medication and went,
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: all right, I'm going to turn this into a book.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: And I've got.
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: That was the start of a plan of things I'm
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: doing to shine a light on PTS in policing.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: Fantastic. Meanwhile, you've returned... to your first love you're studying
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: film you're the oldest film student i think in queensland.
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: No there's someone older it's someone older yeah but i
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: like the.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Fact that you're but you're still chasing your dreams you're
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: still chasing you you've got back to your essential.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: Self yes just over halfway there about 60 percent there.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: Good well jason it was a pleasure to talk to
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: you and i think the book is fantastic congratulations Really
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: enjoyed the read and it really shone a light for me.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: So thanks for your time today.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: Can I just put a plug in if I can?
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: So we're making a documentary on PTS in policing in
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: Australia and we're chasing donations to help us make that.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: If I send you the link to our donations page,
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: it's all tax deductible.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: Is that something that you can put up for me?
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: We will put that in the show notes. I'm always
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: proud and willing to support those sort of initiatives and
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: And we'll do that for you. Thanks, mate. Appreciate your
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: time today.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: Thanks, Adam.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: That was Jason Somerville. The book is Undercurrent, The Hidden
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Cost of Going Undercover. My limited experience with going undercover
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: was actually having, Jason mentioned that the TV show Stingers,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: I was actually a journalist twice in that show and
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: people said it was the most convincing performance I'd ever
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: given as a journalist. Apart from that, it was complete fiction.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: If you've got a story you want to share or
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: you want to, you can always email me, adamshanderwriter at gmail.com.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: If you've got a crime that you want to report,
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Crime Stoppers is the best place, 1-800-333-000. This has been
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Adam Shan for Real Crime. Thanks for listening.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story.
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: Independent storytelling that shapes the world is what Podshape really
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: cares about.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Right now, there's thousands of people listening to this show
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: and our other true crimes, and they're completely engaged.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: More than 10 million Australians listen to podcasts each week.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: If you've ever thought about advertising your business in a podcast,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: there's a link to reach out in the show notes
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: or head to Podshape.com to book a free call.