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"Argue Less, Talk More" A Discusion on Conversation · I Hate Talking

• 0:29
  I Hate Talking: Welcome to episode 53 of I Hate Talking.
• 0:33
  I Hate Talking: Hi everyone.
• 0:34
  I Hate Talking: Now before we get started, we did solve the mystery of how we had more than 52 episodes prior to our year mark.
• 0:43
  I Hate Talking: Oh, how?
• 0:44
  I Hate Talking: Well, if you were a first time listener when our podcast launched, you may recall that on our very first day of release, we actually released 5 episodes.
• 0:56
  I Hate Talking: Yeah.
• 0:57
  I Hate Talking: So we have 4 extra episodes in our yearly routine of dropping a quote unquote official episode number each week and as I mentioned last time, there are some bonus episodes, but those are typically categorized under bonus content of the main episode.
• 1:17
  I Hate Talking: So that is where those 4 extra episodes came from.
• 1:21
  I Hate Talking: That's crazy.
• 1:21
  I Hate Talking: How did we forget that?
• 1:23
  I Hate Talking: I don't know, but we did not actually hear back from any listeners, so either they did not care that much or they were perplexed as well.
• 1:32
  I Hate Talking: But we do the research for you on I hate Talking.
• 1:37
  I Hate Talking: So now that question has been answered.
• 1:40
  I Hate Talking: Likewise, we do the research when it comes to our word or phrase of the episode, and that word or phrase of the episode for this episode is.
• 1:51
  I Hate Talking: Pause or pauses.
• 1:55
  I Hate Talking: Pause, like you pause the game or you pause the TV show?
• 1:59
  I Hate Talking: Uh, yeah, that could be an example.
• 2:02
  I Hate Talking: Well, I guess it maybe fits in with our last two episodes, so it'll be interesting to see where this word takes us or how it might relate to the topic for this particular episode because we're talking about starting things or sustaining things or closing things.
• 2:20
  I Hate Talking: So perhaps maybe you put something on pause, you take a temporary break from whatever you are doing or watching or listening to.
• 2:30
  I Hate Talking: And then later you can resume that by pushing play in the modern lexicon when you're talking about resuming some form of content, whether that be a podcast or TV show or audiobook or whatever the case may be.
• 2:44
  I Hate Talking: So, that is really the only thing that comes to my mind when you use the word pause or pauses is that it relates more to modern technology and the fact that you can stop something.
• 2:59
  I Hate Talking: But then we'll resume that at a later time.
• 3:03
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, and uh similar to our our word recently where it was both, this one's both a verb and a noun.
• 3:10
  I Hate Talking: And yeah, I think you're kind of on the right path where pause means to hesitate, and if you use it as a verb, it could be to come to a temporary halt in one's activity, as in he paused for a moment to regain his composure.
• 3:26
  I Hate Talking: Or a noun, as in a lull, a momentary halt in a moment, like there was a brief pause.
• 3:35
  I Hate Talking: For an applause on his speech.
• 3:38
  I Hate Talking: And this comes from Merriam-Webster.
• 3:40
  I Hate Talking: Well, there you have it, and I think that it does adequately describe some of the things that I was talking about in terms of it being temporary or momentarily that it is not stopping something because that would, I think, have more of an emphasis on the fact that it will not resume, but pausing something is just temporary in nature and you will resume it at some point.
• 4:06
  I Hate Talking: Are you able to come up, find where it originated?
• 4:10
  I Hate Talking: So it comes from the Greek, comes from the word Paa, again, probably not pronouncing that Greek word exactly correct, but it means literally to stop.
• 4:24
  I Hate Talking: It is also looks like it was maybe had some etymology in Latin as well, where the word pausa is used, uh, but it seems like Greek would have been the original etymology and maybe had some crossover between Greek and Latin.
• 4:40
  I Hate Talking: And then that came to be used as pause in the late Middle English.
• 4:46
  I Hate Talking: I'm not immediately finding anything that really describes the fact that it is temporary or momentarily in nature from the etymology, but That is the etymology, both Greek and Latin roots before being used in Middle English.
• 5:05
  I Hate Talking: OK.
• 5:06
  I Hate Talking: So, the reason I was learning about this word and thinking about it this week, is because I'm reading a new book.
• 5:12
  I Hate Talking: And um I feel like it's kind of all the rage right now.
• 5:17
  I Hate Talking: I definitely recommend it even People I know that don't, quote unquote, like influencers, they don't endorse influencers, have even said, OK, this is a good book, you should read it.
• 5:31
  I Hate Talking: It's by Jefferson Fisher.
• 5:34
  I Hate Talking: He is an attorney by trade.
• 5:38
  I Hate Talking: And I started talking on like TikTok, got really popular.
• 5:42
  I Hate Talking: And uh he's written a book now, and it's called The Next Conversation.
• 5:47
  I Hate Talking: Are you less, talk more.
• 5:50
  I Hate Talking: It's really interesting, um, and maybe another time we can like deep dive that book.
• 5:56
  I Hate Talking: It's an easy book if you're listening, especially like I am on Audible.
• 6:02
  I Hate Talking: I'm intentionally pausing the book, because even though it's very easy to listen, I want to really reflect and take in versus just mass to consume information.
• 6:18
  I Hate Talking: So the part I've been listening to the last couple days.
• 6:21
  I Hate Talking: Talks about pauses and in conversations, the importance of having a pause.
• 6:27
  I Hate Talking: And the different types of pauses.
• 6:30
  I Hate Talking: That you can have in a conversation, what they may mean to the person you're talking to, and how they can impact the conversation.
• 6:40
  I Hate Talking: So do you wanna, you haven't read the book, so would you like to hear and talk about?
• 6:44
  I Hate Talking: So two things, I guess.
• 6:48
  I Hate Talking: One is that a pause in speech is definitely an applicable definition of the word pause that you can use pauses in Your speech to make an emphasis or particular point or wait for a response.
• 7:06
  I Hate Talking: So I do think that is a very apt word to use in terms of that particular Strategy for talking.
• 7:17
  I Hate Talking: And then the subtitle again of the book, it's argue Less and Talk More, is that the subtitle?
• 7:25
  I Hate Talking: Yes, argue less, hack more.
• 7:29
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, I guess Right off the bat, I might have a little bit.
• 7:34
  I Hate Talking: Of a.
• 7:37
  I Hate Talking: Hesitancy about the subtitle, cause in an argument, most times it will.
• 7:43
  I Hate Talking: Include talking.
• 7:46
  I Hate Talking: So I feel like argument is or arguing is a subcategory of talking.
• 7:52
  I Hate Talking: And that there could have been maybe a Better word than talk used there.
• 7:59
  I Hate Talking: Now, this is very nitpicky, but you did sort of just, as you said, sort of ask for my reaction to what you described the book to be, and that was one particular thing that sort of just made me pause and consider that.
• 8:14
  I Hate Talking: And to your point, I have not read the book.
• 8:17
  I Hate Talking: No, really nothing about it, had not even heard of it until you brought it to my attention, but that those are some of my initial reactions.
• 8:26
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, I get that.
• 8:27
  I Hate Talking: And again, um, I'm not all the way through the book, so I may not be correct in this.
• 8:32
  I Hate Talking: But I'm thinking to your point, what he means is when you argue, he's often talking about how your body is reacting.
• 8:42
  I Hate Talking: And getting like worked up, your fight and flight is taking action.
• 8:47
  I Hate Talking: So instead of letting those kind of physiological things happen, Controlling it and talking versus letting your physiology respond.
• 8:59
  I Hate Talking: Yes, I think that's a very useful thing then in that particular description that you've given.
• 9:05
  I Hate Talking: So, maybe it would be argue less converse more, converse sort of maybe having a little bit more emphasis in Nuance that it's actually sort of the exchange of ideas and thoughts that it's not just talking because I think talk can be cheap and sometimes people hate talking, but when you are actually conversing with that free exchange of ideas and thoughts, I think perhaps maybe that's what the author is going for.
• 9:33
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, I agree.
• 9:34
  I Hate Talking: I also just think uh giving him the benefit of a doubt.
• 9:38
  I Hate Talking: That using the word argue in a subtitle is gonna get somebody interested cause they're gonna say, oh, we fight maybe, and think of it that way, like, I fight with my spouse.
• 9:47
  I Hate Talking: And then talk is just a more layman's term than converse.
• 9:54
  I Hate Talking: I might put a a typical person off, then that sounds very educational or very academic.
• 10:01
  I Hate Talking: Precisely.
• 10:03
  I Hate Talking: So tell us more about the book and what makes it so interesting.
• 10:08
  I Hate Talking: OK.
• 10:08
  I Hate Talking: Well, this is just a section of the book, and maybe we can talk more about it.
• 10:12
  I Hate Talking: I have been taking notes, but the part for pausing that applies is he's talking about the difference in a pause, and he's suggesting that when you're talking, that you should often take a 1 to 4 2nd pause before answering.
• 10:32
  I Hate Talking: And analogy he uses is it helps think about it, like when you're reading something.
• 10:40
  I Hate Talking: If you put on reading glasses, you can see it clear.
• 10:44
  I Hate Talking: If you take that moment to put them on.
• 10:47
  I Hate Talking: If you pause to answer a question.
• 10:51
  I Hate Talking: Again, he's an attorney, so he's very used to this back and forth, right, of a conversation in the courtroom.
• 10:58
  I Hate Talking: Or in debt positions and such.
• 11:01
  I Hate Talking: So he's saying, like, take a second, just like, That's 4 seconds right there, and it builds anticipation.
• 11:13
  I Hate Talking: And it kind of gets your brain focusing on exactly what you wanna say.
• 11:18
  I Hate Talking: Cause that sounds better than the filler words of like, So then I, you know, went to the store.
• 11:27
  I Hate Talking: Instead, I can say Well, then I went to the store.
• 11:31
  I Hate Talking: Or I guess that would be Then I went to the store.
• 11:36
  I Hate Talking: Like his argument is which one of those would sound more confident or true.
• 11:42
  I Hate Talking: Yes, I guess the, I went to the store would feel.
• 11:48
  I Hate Talking: More confident and probably then interpreted as more true because people aren't necessarily.
• 11:56
  I Hate Talking: Just starting talking immediately and they are searching for the words to say.
• 12:01
  I Hate Talking: I think there's also the aspect of just communication strategy in general, that if you do have good communication that you are not going to be explicitly, majority of the time thinking of the exact response that you will be giving in terms of responding to.
• 12:20
  I Hate Talking: Somebody's thoughts or feelings as they describe them with words or if they are asking a question that you're actually using that brain capacity as they're speaking to truly understand what they are saying.
• 12:34
  I Hate Talking: And then using that pause to give the response because then at that point in time, you are thinking about how you will respond.
• 12:43
  I Hate Talking: It's not that you're thinking of your response and not paying entire attention to what the person is saying on the other side of the conversation.
• 12:50
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, exactly.
• 12:51
  I Hate Talking: I think so.
• 12:53
  I Hate Talking: So do you want to practice?
• 12:54
  I Hate Talking: Cause I wanna practice this.
• 12:57
  I Hate Talking: Like, why don't you ask me a question.
• 12:58
  I Hate Talking: And we can do it back and forth.
• 13:02
  I Hate Talking: I can answer, I often answer right off the tip of my tongue.
• 13:05
  I Hate Talking: And man, I get myself in trouble sometimes.
• 13:09
  I Hate Talking: So, do you want to do a practice?
• 13:11
  I Hate Talking: You can ask me something and I will.
• 13:13
  I Hate Talking: Do both versions.
• 13:15
  I Hate Talking: Yes, before we do that, the other thing that I think may be a little bit of a bias because he is an attorney and we see this in the courtroom, is that I wonder if he is a little bit biased in terms of either how he perceives people's responses or even that he is.
• 13:35
  I Hate Talking: Suggesting that people pause in order to look more thoughtful or to look more composed or to look more confident or truthful and that this might actually be a coaching tactic that he would use for his witnesses or his people that he's defending or prosecuting or whatever the case may be so that.
• 13:57
  I Hate Talking: It appears that the person is more knowledgeable or truthful because they are doing some of these things that may be psychologically interpreted by the people that they are talking to as more confident and truthful when really it is simply that, a strategy and it is not changing anything necessarily about the content of what people are saying.
• 14:20
  I Hate Talking: Very astute.
• 14:22
  I Hate Talking: Yes, he, uh, two things on that you said.
• 14:26
  I Hate Talking: When he first started the book, he does preface with, I'm an attorney.
• 14:31
  I Hate Talking: This is just what I've learned in my experience as one.
• 14:34
  I Hate Talking: I am not a communication specialist or psychologist.
• 14:39
  I Hate Talking: He even specifically says, if what I'm saying is wrong compared to what they say, don't listen to me.
• 14:45
  I Hate Talking: You know, and he's just like, this is just what I've learned from doing this work.
• 14:49
  I Hate Talking: So he does preface that and then also, he does explicitly say, I tell my clients to do these things.
• 14:57
  I Hate Talking: So, you're right, it is definitely a tactic.
• 15:00
  I Hate Talking: And later on, we can go if there's time allows.
• 15:03
  I Hate Talking: There's other versions of pausing that He goes into.
• 15:07
  I Hate Talking: So this is just the first one.
• 15:09
  I Hate Talking: But um.
• 15:11
  I Hate Talking: I feel like in the past, often if someone pauses too long, I feel like when they're not intelligent enough.
• 15:18
  I Hate Talking: Or 2, they're lying and coming up with a lie.
• 15:22
  I Hate Talking: So I think that's why I instinctively react quickly, to show I'm not lying and coming up with a falsehood.
• 15:30
  I Hate Talking: But he kind of persuaded me that just that couple seconds.
• 15:34
  I Hate Talking: It is good.
• 15:36
  I Hate Talking: I do think it is probably good and.
• 15:40
  I Hate Talking: Perhaps there is some.
• 15:44
  I Hate Talking: Value and just even reflecting on the responses and like the example that you gave before where perhaps somebody is using some filler words like ah or um or so and like and some of those things that are used just to fill space.
• 16:02
  I Hate Talking: That don't really add any particular extra value or sometimes actually do detract from the value of the response.
• 16:11
  I Hate Talking: So I do think that If a person is.
• 16:15
  I Hate Talking: Responding to a question or.
• 16:18
  I Hate Talking: Taking part in a conversation and giving their point of view in terms of a statement that was just presented from the other side of the party that's conversing.
• 16:28
  I Hate Talking: That there is perhaps some usefulness in avoiding those filler words and just taking time to quietly reflect and respond accordingly.
• 16:41
  I Hate Talking: But I also think that culturally just in conversation, that there is some aspect of using those filler words.
• 16:50
  I Hate Talking: To actually give a form of communication to the other party that they are engaged in the conversation and thinking of a response and not necessarily just often their own head thinking of something else and maybe have lost the entire concentration on the conversation.
• 17:13
  I Hate Talking: At hand.
• 17:14
  I Hate Talking: So again, we're no different than the particular author.
• 17:17
  I Hate Talking: These are just some things that we observe.
• 17:19
  I Hate Talking: We're not trained communication specialists or things of that nature, though we have studied it, I guess.
• 17:26
  I Hate Talking: But a lot of these things are based on just our observations of our own conversations and our own world experiences as it relates to arguing or conversing with others.
• 17:40
  I Hate Talking: And I imagine he studied probably as many courses in college or whatnot that we did.
• 17:45
  I Hate Talking: Given his profession and ours.
• 17:48
  I Hate Talking: As you're talking, it reminds me of our really bad habit you and I have.
• 17:55
  I Hate Talking: Often you'll say something and I won't be ready to talk yet, cause maybe I'm doing something else.
• 18:01
  I Hate Talking: Maybe I'm listening to an audiobook, or whatnot.
• 18:05
  I Hate Talking: And so my instinct is to say, what?
• 18:07
  I Hate Talking: And as I'm like processing what you're saying, and I'm either processing what you're saying back, cause I wasn't ready to listen, or I generally didn't hear you, and I get really frustrated cause you just wait.
• 18:19
  I Hate Talking: And I'm like, what?
• 18:21
  I Hate Talking: What?
• 18:23
  I Hate Talking: And you're oh, I thought you were thinking.
• 18:28
  I Hate Talking: I'm like, no, just tell me what you said.
• 18:29
  I Hate Talking: That is true.
• 18:31
  I Hate Talking: I usually wait until the 2nd what to repeat myself because oftentimes, and you've sometimes denied it, but then I've explicitly shown you examples where you do this exact thing and say what as that filler word and then come back with your response or maybe because you were processing what was being said.
• 18:51
  I Hate Talking: Right.
• 18:52
  I Hate Talking: So that is definitely something we need to work on.
• 18:54
  I Hate Talking: I don't have a clear answer cause I know it's an instinctive what?
• 18:58
  I Hate Talking: What?
• 18:59
  I Hate Talking: And I wonder how often I do it to other people, or if it's just me and you kind of thing.
• 19:04
  I Hate Talking: I feel like it's probably more just me and you cause we interact a lot more while I'm distracted.
• 19:09
  I Hate Talking: Where if I'm with somebody else, I'm often only there for a short period of time or for explicit purpose.
• 19:19
  I Hate Talking: So I'm giving them my full attention, where you and I come and go throughout the house or whatnot.
• 19:24
  I Hate Talking: And so I'm not always ready to give my 100% attention.
• 19:29
  I Hate Talking: Correct and it's probably a deficiency, some in my own behavior as well, because I think I will apply some of my own personal experience in terms of how other people experience the world where I'm hearing a lot of what is going on around me and don't necessarily turn my full attention on a particular thing at hand.
• 19:52
  I Hate Talking: Or not even be capable to filter out some of the other things around me going on and I will be listening to multiple conversations or multiple inputs at the same time and that's actually something that I think even is a struggle in social settings when there's multiple conversations going on.
• 20:14
  I Hate Talking: I actually find it quite difficult to focus on one single conversation when there is very Adjacent conversations happening at the same time that I will actually be listening to all of those things happening at the same time.
• 20:27
  I Hate Talking: The point here is that I will assume other people are doing the same thing because that is how I experience life, but that is not really the case because you may be, like you said, entirely focused on a podcast or what one of the kids is working on or something of that nature.
• 20:44
  I Hate Talking: You're not just listening for other audible inputs in terms of things that Desire or need your attention.
• 20:51
  I Hate Talking: No.
• 20:52
  I Hate Talking: The other thing it reminds me of is the show How I Met Your Mother with a particular episode where they counted how many but ums there were because I think you do that too, and maybe we could count in this episode if we don't edit them out, how many happened because I think in some cases we do edit those out.
• 21:11
  I Hate Talking: And it will be interesting editing this episode because we've used so many.
• 21:15
  I Hate Talking: Pauses and some of our editing software will automatically remove those gaps.
• 21:22
  I Hate Talking: So I wonder if we'll actually have to remove some of those edits -- so that the pauses are present -- because we're intentionally like explaining or showing how to pause.
• 21:33
  I Hate Talking: Correct.
• 21:35
  I Hate Talking: And our audio doesn't know that.
• 21:37
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, that's interesting.
• 21:38
  I Hate Talking: Yes, but um It's definitely a bad habit, and I do like How I Met Your Mother in that episode.
• 21:45
  I Hate Talking: Precisely.
• 21:47
  I Hate Talking: I think actually podcasting has made me more aware of my filler words from the start.
• 21:53
  I Hate Talking: And maybe that's because I'm the one that's doing some of the final edits that I will actually know where those happen and cut some of those out so that it's not so jarring for you, our listeners.
• 22:06
  I Hate Talking: Can you just leave mine in.
• 22:08
  I Hate Talking: No, I, I will.
• 22:10
  I Hate Talking: Now some of them are difficult to remove because you will sort of flow from the um into your next word.
• 22:17
  I Hate Talking: So, some of them have to stay, otherwise it would be a hard cut.
• 22:22
  I Hate Talking: OK.
• 22:23
  I Hate Talking: So perhaps that is something that, again, from this podcast or just from this author in particular, is not necessarily the value of the pauses, but the specific strategy to avoid filler words.
• 22:40
  I Hate Talking: Mhm.
• 22:41
  I Hate Talking: Hey, do you wanna know the next thing, he says.
• 22:45
  I Hate Talking: Sure, I guess at some point I will have to read this book, but I have not.
• 22:50
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, no, I want you to.
• 22:51
  I Hate Talking: I keep telling you to do it.
• 22:52
  I Hate Talking: I mean, keep telling you, I only came out, I think 1 week ago or 2 weeks ago.
• 22:57
  I Hate Talking: So, it's not like you're dragging your feet.
• 22:59
  I Hate Talking: No, I suppose not.
• 23:01
  I Hate Talking: So what is the next thing that he says?
• 23:04
  I Hate Talking: He talks about the next kind of pause is a longer one, and it's more, if the first one is like 1 to 4 seconds, this one would be more like 5 to 10 seconds.
• 23:16
  I Hate Talking: And I don't know if we want to show that on a podcast, cause I feel like people will literally look at their phone to see if it glitched or Lost internet.
• 23:27
  I Hate Talking: If we demonstrated what a 5 to 12th pause was it would definitely get removed by our editing software, I'm sure.
• 23:36
  I Hate Talking: So we would have to delete that edit that ads, but.
• 23:40
  I Hate Talking: I guess they have fair warning that we are going to do this, so your computer is not glitching.
• 23:49
  I Hate Talking: Do not look at your phone to see if you've lost internet connection.
• 23:53
  I Hate Talking: But this is 10 seconds of silence starting now.
• 23:59
  I Hate Talking: That feels like a long time, I think.
• 24:11
  I Hate Talking: Did you even wait the whole 10?
• 24:13
  I Hate Talking: -- That was -- a whole 10.
• 24:14
  I Hate Talking: Yes.
• 24:14
  I Hate Talking: OK, that's a long time.
• 24:16
  I Hate Talking: Maybe 9.5.
• 24:16
  I Hate Talking: I didn't have my stopwatch running.
• 24:18
  I Hate Talking: That was just a timer, so it wasn't down into the milliseconds, but it is definitely -- between 9 and 10 -- seconds.
• 24:25
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, it's uncomfortable and hard.
• 24:29
  I Hate Talking: So, On this completely side note, it reminds me of The Office, as we were talking about how I Met Your Mother.
• 24:34
  I Hate Talking: Also, another great show is The Office.
• 24:37
  I Hate Talking: I think it was 17 seconds, maybe, that they had silence in their first or second season with Jim and Pam, when he says he likes her.
• 24:47
  I Hate Talking: They just let it play.
• 24:49
  I Hate Talking: And there was like this whole discussion over it, that's too long, that's never been that long of silence before on the air.
• 24:55
  I Hate Talking: You can't do that.
• 24:56
  I Hate Talking: They just powered through like we're gonna do it.
• 24:59
  I Hate Talking: And it's not uncomfortable necessarily in the show, because you can see their faces, and you just like, feel that tension build when she's waiting to hear if she loves him back or not.
• 25:11
  I Hate Talking: It was like the longest time, I think it was 17 seconds, so that's almost double what we just did.
• 25:17
  I Hate Talking: And that was really long.
• 25:19
  I Hate Talking: That is true.
• 25:20
  I Hate Talking: I think in the.
• 25:22
  I Hate Talking: High-paced environment that we live in today that that is a long time that if you are watching a TV show or listening to a podcast or listening to an audiobook that those things will not exist and perhaps are edited out on purpose if they I happenstance actually do get into the recording.
• 25:46
  I Hate Talking: Right, so the point that Jefferson is making for that long of a pause is that it becomes a reflection that first, you also have a lot of time to think about your answer.
• 25:59
  I Hate Talking: But the person asking the question.
• 26:02
  I Hate Talking: Or say in the statement.
• 26:04
  I Hate Talking: It's gonna make them stop.
• 26:07
  I Hate Talking: And think about what they said.
• 26:09
  I Hate Talking: And makes them reflect, like look in a mirror and think about, is that true what I said?
• 26:16
  I Hate Talking: Did I misspeak?
• 26:18
  I Hate Talking: What was wrong?
• 26:19
  I Hate Talking: So, it's actually like a tactic to make them.
• 26:22
  I Hate Talking: I mean, he didn't say more insecure, but basically, like make them start thinking.
• 26:28
  I Hate Talking: It kind of gives you almost an upper hand of like a power move, if.
• 26:34
  I Hate Talking: And not his words, mine.
• 26:36
  I Hate Talking: Well that is interesting because that is where my thoughts went immediately when you're describing the long pause is that whoever is delivering a particular statement or question.
• 26:49
  I Hate Talking: That then is followed by the 12th pause in a debate or argument, I would consider that as like a win because you just had a mic drop statement or a particular question that has stymied the other party in this conversation, argument or debate and then you do have, as you said, your words, power, move or the upper hand in this particular conversation and I would not.
• 27:19
  I Hate Talking: I don't think unless it was maybe a very emotionally charged conversation, really even think about what I had said, I would actually go the other direction and this would actually be more argumentative in a way.
• 27:34
  I Hate Talking: Interesting.
• 27:36
  I Hate Talking: OK.
• 27:36
  I Hate Talking: I mean, it's interesting to be here, like, if it's our different personalities, like maybe I have a more similar personality to Jefferson, because when there is a silence, an awkward silence, I'd think of it as, or anything, I do start instantly reflecting on what I said.
• 27:53
  I Hate Talking: Um, and maybe I misspoke or whatnot.
• 27:57
  I Hate Talking: Uh, I think it's interesting that you would come back with more of like a confidence, like, ha, I got them.
• 28:04
  I Hate Talking: Right.
• 28:05
  I Hate Talking: I did consider how you were describing that it may be reflective for the party that just delivered a statement or a question that they would sort of think if they said something wrong or said something out of turn, that is not the primary thought that I had.
• 28:22
  I Hate Talking: My primary thought was that Whatever statement or question.
• 28:27
  I Hate Talking: Was just delivered was so powerful that it has stopped the other party in their tracks.
• 28:33
  I Hate Talking: And maybe part of it is what the person says, he didn't say this, I don't believe, but maybe it's what you respond with.
• 28:42
  I Hate Talking: Cause if you take that long pause and then you start stuttering.
• 28:47
  I Hate Talking: And speaking timidly.
• 28:52
  I Hate Talking: Without confidence, then I could see that being like, huh, I definitely got them, they're super rattled.
• 28:58
  I Hate Talking: But if you take that pause and then you come back with something really confident to say, or assertive, I think it could definitely sway the other way, don't you think?
• 29:09
  I Hate Talking: Or do you still think you'd win?
• 29:11
  I Hate Talking: Well, the other thing to consider I think is that if this is a public debate or some sort of conversation that is between two parties that is being observed by other people, whether that be in a conference call or some sort of political debate that perhaps there is some value for those that are observing a particular conversation.
• 29:38
  I Hate Talking: That there is some form of again value and intrinsic confidence that is being displayed by the person that does pause, which again is probably what perhaps this author is getting at because it's in a courtroom setting that.
• 29:57
  I Hate Talking: This may not be completely applicable to a pure two party conversation that is only between two people and not observed by any other party.
• 30:11
  I Hate Talking: I think a lot of his things are being colored by the fact that these arguments or these conversations.
• 30:18
  I Hate Talking: are being held in front of a jury or witnesses or a judge, and that it's being highly colored by tactics of the courtroom.
• 30:30
  I Hate Talking: Yeah.
• 30:31
  I Hate Talking: And um that's a great segue to the next bullet point I wrote.
• 30:35
  I Hate Talking: The next two things I wrote down were from his notes were silence is never misquoted.
• 30:42
  I Hate Talking: And also, a person who speaks last always loses.
• 30:48
  I Hate Talking: And I feel like that's almost a contradiction to what you just said.
• 30:53
  I Hate Talking: So what do you think of that?
• 30:54
  I Hate Talking: The person who speaks last loses.
• 30:57
  I Hate Talking: Well, I say again, it's a courtroom perspective because.
• 31:03
  I Hate Talking: In certain conversations.
• 31:05
  I Hate Talking: There shouldn't even be winners and losers, and I think this was actually something that maybe we discussed.
• 31:12
  I Hate Talking: Not on the podcast, but just between us is that.
• 31:16
  I Hate Talking: Conversations should not even have the intent of their being winners and losers because if you are truly conversing with someone and trying to exchange your ideas and gather their thoughts and opinions on a particular subject that you are not necessarily doing that to win or lose.
• 31:36
  I Hate Talking: So was that from this author or was that something completely unrelated?
• 31:40
  I Hate Talking: It was.
• 31:40
  I Hate Talking: It was earlier in his book.
• 31:42
  I Hate Talking: I'm about halfway through the book right now.
• 31:44
  I Hate Talking: So that's interesting.
• 31:45
  I Hate Talking: And again, I have not read the book, so maybe this is just these two main ideas bubbling to the surface, and he explains the nuance between the two.
• 31:53
  I Hate Talking: But it's interesting that he would say that conversations are with the intent to not have winners and losers and then later in the book is saying that there are winners and losers in conversations.
• 32:04
  I Hate Talking: OK, that's fair enough.
• 32:07
  I Hate Talking: I'd have to rethink about it or look back at my notes.
• 32:10
  I Hate Talking: I can see that just from the little bit you've gotten from me.
• 32:13
  I Hate Talking: But remember, I'm on like chapter, I don't know, 8 now or something, so he's reached a lot of topics.
• 32:20
  I Hate Talking: Earlier when I talked about, yeah, that you, the point of talking isn't to win.
• 32:26
  I Hate Talking: Uh, and then he's talking about the last person they talk loses.
• 32:31
  I Hate Talking: So definitely seem contradictory.
• 32:34
  I Hate Talking: Um, he's at that point talking about different things.
• 32:38
  I Hate Talking: But I think what he's talking about for the last person that talks loses, is people often want the last word, right?
• 32:46
  I Hate Talking: Like, an argument or conversation, on a podcast or anything like that.
• 32:52
  I Hate Talking: You want to be the last voice heard?
• 32:54
  I Hate Talking: Cause you think then you won or like that's gonna leave the lasting impression.
• 33:00
  I Hate Talking: I think his argument maybe is that the last impression isn't always the best thing.
• 33:07
  I Hate Talking: You can exude more confidence.
• 33:09
  I Hate Talking: By saying what you need and then being done.
• 33:13
  I Hate Talking: Versus um continuing to try to fill in words and stories that aren't needed.
• 33:23
  I Hate Talking: Just to get the last word in.
• 33:26
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, that's true.
• 33:28
  I Hate Talking: I think that is.
• 33:30
  I Hate Talking: A fair point, right is that.
• 33:32
  I Hate Talking: If you still haven't learned the lesson from the earlier in the chapters that there aren't winners and losers in the conversation unless you are explicitly trying to make their a winner and loser, is that There is not necessarily any particular points gained by simply being the last word.
• 33:49
  I Hate Talking: OK, the funniest thing that he did that I literally laughed out loud at.
• 33:54
  I Hate Talking: He always prefaces it like chapter 4, and he gives a title.
• 33:59
  I Hate Talking: And then expounds on it, and then has like questions afterwards, and then he's like, chapter 5, and then does the same outline, right?
• 34:07
  I Hate Talking: For one of them, he's like, chapter 7.
• 34:11
  I Hate Talking: The less words, the better.
• 34:14
  I Hate Talking: Chapter 8.
• 34:17
  I Hate Talking: And then he was like, just kidding.
• 34:19
  I Hate Talking: And then he went back to like why less words are valuable.
• 34:22
  I Hate Talking: But I just thought that was so funny to like a little punch in there to be like, OK.
• 34:26
  I Hate Talking: Less words the better, then.
• 34:29
  I Hate Talking: That is humorous.
• 34:30
  I Hate Talking: I wonder how that's in the printed copy if it was like.
• 34:32
  I Hate Talking: -- Just that page like a -- whole page and then you had to like flip the page to see the just kidding.
• 34:37
  I Hate Talking: I hope so.
• 34:38
  I Hate Talking: If you, if anyone's read the book and sees the printed copy, let us know.
• 34:42
  I Hate Talking: That would be so good.
• 34:43
  I Hate Talking: So in the audio version of the book, is this self-narrated?
• 34:49
  I Hate Talking: Yes.
• 34:49
  I Hate Talking: Oh no.
• 34:50
  I Hate Talking: He speaks very conversational versus uh other than the titles, where he's very uh paused, like chapter 5.
• 35:03
  I Hate Talking: Kind of thing.
• 35:05
  I Hate Talking: The rest was very conversational.
• 35:07
  I Hate Talking: So for me it's easy to listen to, that's so I have to intentionally pause it to reflect on what he's saying.
• 35:13
  I Hate Talking: But I know you don't like narrators reading their own stuff.
• 35:18
  I Hate Talking: Yes, perhaps that will be a topic for another time with regards to self-narration.
• 35:26
  I Hate Talking: But hopefully, this episode has been helpful for people to consider pausing in conversations and maybe you will even be interested in this book.
• 35:36
  I Hate Talking: We'll have a link in the show notes to this author and his self-narrated audio book as well as a printed copy and Maybe you can buy a copy and let us know what he does with that particular chapter that says less words is better.
• 35:52
  I Hate Talking: And for all you other podcasters out there, watch out for those filler words.
• 35:58
  I Hate Talking: So, from your friends at I hate Talking, until next time, remember, it is only through talking that we begin the journey to understanding.