Latest / WIPTHENRIP / Episode 1 - Emilio Villalba
Transcript
- speaker-0: Hi everyone, I'm Sydney. And this is our video podcast called Whip Rip. And we'll be having our first guest on the pod. His name is Emilio Via Alba. He's a San Francisco painter. And right now he currently has a show at Ivestor Contemporary. That's up until July eleventh. So stay tuned and see how our conversation goes. speaker-1: And I'm Ryan. Then So gripes, ⁓ we're sort of intentionally starting off with the the bitching and complaining because just to give context there, I think, you know, often that stuff will happen off mic, right? And kind of behind the scenes. And I think part of our interest is just getting, you know, within reason and without being, you know, shitty, ⁓ get that stuff in the air. So Gripes means or the the prompt is what's frustrating, broken, or irritating in art and culture right now to you. speaker-2: I mean, this is a tough, tough question, I think. I mean, ⁓ when I read this question, I was I was thinking like, man, I should just throw it back on them and see what they what they answer first. For me, ⁓ you know, I'm pffff I mean, I can complain all day, I'm sure, about a lot or if you ask my wife, ⁓ I could complain about so much. But to be honest, it's mostly internal, you know, I'm it's mostly an internal battle that I'm I'm usually complaining about, ⁓ a time. You know, we just live in this time right now where Where it's ⁓ regardless of what you're doing, there's this pressure, almost like a rat race, you know, and even if you try to avoid it, it you know, the only I I feel like I'm not working is like if I force myself to go on vacation somewhere, you know, where I don't have access to my my paint or or I'm not teaching or but that being said, I think ⁓ I was thinking about this earlier and I for me it's The one thing I complain to my students about all the time is materials and cost. Just how things aren't made like they used to be made, whether it's stretcher bars, the canvas, ⁓ the paints, the tubes, the brushes, like everything sucks. Every time I go into the ⁓ the art store, I feel like a grandpa, like I'm complaining to the people that work there as if they had anything to do with. the cre the how these products were made, you know. speaker-1: Ask what's your go-to, or maybe we shouldn't say this in the context of this. I'm curious, we can cut it, but what's your go-to store in your area? speaker-2: I love my the store that I go to. It's Blick on ⁓ in San Francisco on Ven S Street. ⁓ there's two blicks here in the city. ⁓ there's a larger one on Market Street. ⁓ but yeah, art stores have been closing left and right since since I moved here. speaker-1: When I was in Chicago and New York, Flick was always the best, you know, despite the quality of materials going down. And I feel like we're limited I don't know if you've ever heard of Jerry's Ardorama, but it is ⁓ Flick. speaker-0: Yeah, it's not lick and I mean I love Jerry's but the quality and yeah, I have my students buy Amazon and I feel kinda shitty for doing that, but it's kind of like what they can afford and you know, it is what it is. speaker-1: I'm wondering too within that materials question, like, you know, you've been working on paper, with acrylic, right? And I wonder like within those confines, do you go for like you know, I don't know, I think of like golden as the kind of, you know, better acrylics and like do you go for a particular kind of paper, or do you feel like for what you're doing, it's not a huge issue? speaker-2: It's a little bit of both. I do want great qualities, but ⁓ with the acrylic, I have been using just the Utrecht brand, acrylic paint. it's a creature of habit. Also, it's just ignorance. I just walk in and the Utrecht acrylics are right in front of me. So I literally just go straight there. Honestly, a creature of habit and I'm I'm a little dumb too. Like I don't really read prices, I don't like research products, I don't know anything. about anything. Like I don't know what's in my paint. I don't know how brushes are made. I don't know how paper is really made. Like ⁓ speaker-1: I feel really similar. Is that so you can just get to the painting part of it? Yeah. Yeah. speaker-2: Yeah, absolutely. speaker-1: Sorry, I know you teach too, and I feel like students will often ask me about materials and I'm like, you know, just get some paint. I always use the example that it's like a great painter can use a French fry with some ketchup and make a masterwork. You don't need, you know, the best shit to make something good. But yeah, I don't know. Is that what it's about? Is just like getting to the actual process of making something. speaker-2: For sure. ⁓ and I've paid for it later, you know, like ⁓ in certain some cases where I use something that's just god awful, like and then I make up something really thick on it or heavy and then like wow, this this these stretcher bars can't even hold this thing together. but with paper pretty lucky. and sometimes I think paper is the quality the way that the paper is made is better than the way canvas is made. ⁓ And ⁓ the only thing that sucks about paper is that you have to get it framed. you don't have to, but you know, it's usually the end the end result. but specifically acrylic on paper for me looks better than acrylic on canvas, the way that I paint it. speaker-1: We can get to it maybe in talking about process, but I'm thinking about all of the imposto and and the way that that functions with paper versus canvas. But maybe Sydney, you wanna throw to the next speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. Well, I mean, I actually wanted to ask you on the vibes, if I could, like, is there anything in you know, cause you live in San Francisco, right? Like, do you feel like there's anything in the art there that you find frustrating or I don't know, like not to put you on the spot or get you in trouble. I just I'm curious like if you experience like these clicks or like you feel not always welcome. speaker-2: I've never felt unwelcomed in a space. if if I did, it's maybe my own insecurity. but again, I'm I'm sort of a space cadet. I walk in, I'm like, I don't know who's in charge or what's going on, you know. but ⁓ so there's a little bit of that. But my experience, I love San Francisco. I love the galleries here, I love the community. It sucks that galleries are closing, art stores have been closing. people have been moving out. Rents extremely expensive. My studio is insanely expensive. and I could find a ⁓ a more affordable one and a larger one, but I would have to drive ⁓ further out. And ⁓ I love being able to walk five minutes to my studio here ⁓ from from my apartment. it is very expensive. My my wife and I actually share it. ⁓ so we're we're painting in the same space. and ⁓ yeah, there's not too many people that I know that have I mean there are a lot of people that have st art studios, but there's a lot of people that don't, you know, they paint from their home. ⁓ and I I I used to paint from home till about two years ago, maybe three years ago. and ⁓ so yeah, I mean cost of living is insane. But I think that's not just San Francisco, you know, that's everywhere. speaker-0: Right. speaker-1: Did that change the work when you moved from home to a studio? speaker-2: Yeah, absolutely. And I miss painting at home. Like I love painting at home. A lot of my most of my subject matter are things and you know, my w I paint my wife all the time, self-portraits. I feel comfortable at home. and ⁓ yeah, I mean I I am becoming more and more of a hermit, you know, the older I get. And ⁓ when I go to the studio recently my my I After the Ivester show I started painting an oil again, ⁓ which I haven't painted for well, I haven't used oils for almost a year. And I was thinking about missing my the apartment, missing the home. So I started painting these memory paintings f of my living room, from the studio. Because my studio feels like it's just an office space. You know, it's like white floor, white walls and ⁓ It's not furnished the way that the apartment ⁓ has inspired us. You know, we've we've curated it over since Michelle and I started living together. We've been like slowly collecting things and it's just become you know, how any home gets gets ⁓ designed. speaker-1: thinking about that idea of memory and even though you're perhaps further away from that warmth of home, I'm wondering if there's something to that like almost asylum like space, right, of the white studio and the way that that can kind of or I'm this is meant to be a question, but you know, does that actually end up creating any kind of like warping or I don't know like haze over the memory of place, right? As opposed to if you're actually looking at your bathroom, for example, versus looking at it in your mind's eye. Is there anything kind of interesting there that happens? speaker-2: Yeah, I'll I'll take it back just a bit. forever I I knew that or I've heard that Descartes drew a lot and painted from from memory. And I would look at his paintings and like, how in the world could you do that from memory? Like I thought it was impossible. And then in twenty nineteen or twenty twenty I read a book about David Park, ⁓ Bay Area figurative painter. And ⁓ He supposedly painted ⁓ most of his famous stuff from memory. ⁓ even though it looks photographic in a sense in the in the staging, like a thumbnail, you know, like a movie thumbnail or something. I couldn't believe it. I was like, no way. He must have used some sort of reference or whatever. And so I've been thinking about painting completely from memory for a while. And just like anything else, it just takes practice. You know, your first couple are gonna be completely. terrible maybe. Or maybe you might look out and just strip strike gold or whatever. But ⁓ I've been practicing painting from memory for a couple of years now. And along with painting from from life and observation and and from photos as well. but when I first got this studio, I was I felt more like a I was in a garage or something, like working at a in a like as a mechanic or something. I felt like it was more industrial. So my paintings started becoming more about like working class, like blue collar, lack of a better word. ⁓ but like just I just wanted to put so much work into them, hours and hours and and ⁓ build them. And that's what created a series called ⁓ Everything is Something, whereas it was an app there were abstract paintings, but everything There was no real abstract mark. Everything was a representation of something. It just the layers built this sort of abstraction. speaker-1: a certain order to it even in chaos isn't the right word but within a certain kind of chaos there was an orderliness because something about what you're saying about like being a mechanic or you know a sort of working a working artist or a a a working person ⁓ it just makes me think that there's like a sort of a grit and like elbow grease in that that also somehow relates to Just doing things that are necessary, if that makes sense. and maybe I'm going off the rails here, but it feels like in that perhaps there's some sort of orderliness. Do you feel connected to that still? Or is this like, you know, more memory-based, or at least that's how I'm now thinking of it, work? does it feel somehow fuzzier or dreamier to you? speaker-2: Yeah, I think the new stuff and meaning new, like in the last month. I ⁓ I think there is a softer side to them. I'm not worried or concerned about the visual elbow griefs in the in the paintings. You know what I mean? Like whereas before I was like, wow, like there's a little bit of that you have to prove to someone that You've put effort into these, you know. speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: Yeah, when you say softer sides, do you mean like 'cause me and Ryan, we went to Ivestor and I mean we were talking about like your paintings are kind of intense. Like Kevin said that he sees some sort of humor in some of them, but I feel like there's an emotional heaviness. When you say softer, is it just like the matter of like when you were painting them, you maybe felt like less intense? speaker-2: It's funny because in my head I'm always thinking about the paintings I literally just created. So the ones at Ivestor aren't the softer ones. The Ivestor paintings are such a different beast. ⁓ they're acrylic on paper. I've never I've never created an acrylic on paper show. I've had acrylics on paper be displayed before, but not as not like as the main part of the exhibition. You know, they've always been sort of sketches. and and size-wise, I've never painted acrylic on paper larger than sixteen by twenty. So these these were getting eighteen by twenty-four, and then the largest is sixty by fifty or fifty by forty, something like that. They started off as sketches and then they became heavier, you know, that they became more precious and exciting. And and also you start to to see the light, I guess, a bit more. You s you're starting to see this this body of work turn into something. And you know, if I had another year on these, I'm sure that would have kept you know, ⁓ maybe you would have kept getting closer to the realization of of what they could be or something. speaker-1: I was saying to Sydney that the the large I keep thinking of it as the red one, although it's not exclusively red. I think that's the one that you're referring to, that's like fifty by ⁓ thirty perhaps or one. speaker-2: Yeah, that one there is one that's a little larger that's in the back. there's a like a computer and a computer screen. It's vertical. ⁓ it's behind the desk. speaker-1: But with that one confront, and maybe this is partially because I think about Red A lot too in my work, but there is kind of a violence, I think, to that painting. and I was saying to ⁓ Sydney before we hopped on here that it's such an interesting piece to me because it there's a certain yeah, violence and almost like verging on the grotesque quality to it, but then also something that feels like perhaps a bit romantic and even sexual. ⁓ and I wonder if either of those thoughts resonate with you. because actually when Kevin was saying he saw a lot of humor in the work, I was like, I I don't know if I do. And I I know there's like Augustine pink in there. ⁓ and I think of Gustine in perhaps a similar way where it's like on surface read it's fairly light. And you dig just a little bit deeper and you're like, ⁓ these are Pretty dark. ⁓ but does that actually track for you or speaker-2: Hitting it right on the head. I ⁓ a lot of people do think that there's humor in my work, and I'm 110% serious. Like I don't I it's ⁓ I mean there is humor in it somehow, but maybe it just comes from the music and the the culture that maybe I was raised with in terms of thinking what's what's cool or whatever. Maybe there has to be a little bit of like a a a s a humorous side to it, but for the most part is is pretty serious. And you're right, aggressive was a word and a thought that I was thinking of when I was making these paintings, as well as romantic and sexual. and that the romantic and sexual side maybe comes from, you know, my Mexican heritage. ⁓ and then the violence might have been influenced by ⁓ Carlos's ⁓ work. so I think that's where that comes from, as well as my obsession with German expressionism in the last couple of years. Sure. so it's really just a hodgepodge. It's I always tell ⁓ my students that it's sort of, you know, you you can learn the skills, but then when you're gonna create your art, essentially you're just you're bringing your your your baggage. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: You know, and that that includes your your influences, your emotion, your insecurities, what it's everything. speaker-1: And so is it fair to say that, you know, that connection to Carlos's work and then also some just general intensity aggression is related to the political climate? When you mention German expressionism, I think about obviously the conditions ⁓ that they were working under and thinking about. ⁓ so is there kind of I know there's the point about all work being political, but is it kind of consciously on some level political for you? speaker-2: Not I mean, my work's never been political. ⁓ and if it has been, it's subconscious or it's a narrative that someone else puts lays over it. Exactly. so this was my first real opportunity or or position that I was in where I was sharing a space with someone. I almost felt like I was the Robin to his Batman in this particular show. You know, I really felt like a supporting character. and speaker-1: Puts on it. speaker-2: my work wasn't meant to be political. There was literally one piece in there that was consciously political, but it was still from a painter's perspective. and the rest were more ⁓ you know human experience, existential. I guess I never think of my work as psychological, but maybe in retrospect when other people keep people have been saying this for years and I feel like I'm finally seeing it. ⁓ And and it just has to do with the human condition ⁓ essentially. and you know, it doesn't have to have a narrative to have a narrative, you know. speaker-1: Yeah. I and I was gonna say I think you could be the Superman to his background. I feel like speaker-2: ⁓ yeah, dynamic duo. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Also ⁓ I wanted to ask, well, we were both wondering why the painting is called two figs. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. speaker-2: I think that might have been a typo. ⁓ Yeah, it was supposed to be two figures. ⁓ I saw that like I saw that on there too, but I I didn't say anything. speaker-0: That makes yeah. ⁓ okay. speaker-1: That's funny. I was like, I bet this is so deep, like the what is it's the fruit and there's all this history with the fig. That's funny. speaker-2: I do love figs. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, the the ⁓ speaker-0: Okay, that's fair. speaker-1: I wonder. No, you go ahead. speaker-2: I was just gonna say when I was painting that one, that there's it's I can't even remember making it really. You know, it's I think it was over three or four different sessions and ⁓ they ⁓ just the decisions that you're making. Like, is this line is it ugly? Is it pretty ugly or is it ugly ugly? You know, it's There's there's so many decisions that are being made. And then this sort of narrative that happened. Like I remember coming into the studio the next day and seeing it. And I was like, I've you know, because I'd never made anything like that before. So it was it was it was kind of a trip. And for it to be painted with acrylic paint, you know, that I get really excited in those moments. I'm like, wow, did I just open something up? Can I Should do this in oil? And you know, as soon as I started painting oils, like that, you know, that it's had that idea hasn't even crossed my mind. So I think that this body of work and that piece specifically is really special because I believe it was the final piece painted for the show. and or second at last. speaker-1: I I if you 'cause it feels like oil to me, ⁓ which I think is something that I struggle to ever achieve, you know, a level where you can't necessarily tell the difference. ⁓ there's something about the quality of the painting. And it's making me think to ask, ⁓ and this is just purely for my own, you know, curiosity, but is there any kind of medium that you're using? ⁓ for that imposto or is it just paint? speaker-2: Just paint. It's a lot of pain. Yeah. I use a lot. Yeah. I think that's also why I use maybe not the most expensive. speaker-1: That is a good reason. Yeah. speaker-2: Paint. Yeah. And yeah, I get buckets of of ⁓ the white and the black paint. U tr yeah, the Utrecht brand. They have like the the larger bucket. speaker-1: Like five on or whatever. speaker-2: Yeah, and I wish they had that for for the colors. ⁓ they just have the jars. but yeah, I have this little shopping cart that I walk that I push over to the art store and I just fill it up with paint and then haul it back to my studio. speaker-1: Awesome. So Sydney speaker-0: Yeah, we're gonna go on to the good stuff. Okay, so the good stuff is what feels exciting alive or worth paying attention to right now. Whether it's like artists that you've seen recently or something you've read or any of the events. speaker-2: well in art right now I'm really into Julian Ayres is work. ⁓ I'm not too familiar with her history. I believe she was a teacher, ⁓ college teacher, I think. I'm not sure. but a ⁓ British painter. that's all I say about her history. I I I don't know anything about her history, but the work is phenomenal. I've been s I've been Thinking about her work for the last maybe four years and ⁓ it hasn't been till I think this maybe three, four months ago is when I really started thinking of her work every day. Sort of like she's like my new hero right now. And I'm thinking a lot about Leon ⁓ Kosov's work. Again, I don't know like the history there, so I'm these these are relatively new artists for me. speaker-1: Also a Brit, right? speaker-2: Yeah, I love British painters. ⁓ I mean Lucien Freud is is like my hero, yeah. speaker-1: I saw someone apologizing for ⁓ it was an interview actually with Eric Fischel. and thankfully I don't remember the guy or the the podcast name, but he was like apologizing for lacking Lucian Freud to Eric Fischel and my head was just was like, No, what? ⁓ sorry, I'm geeking out because I'm with you. Like we've got Hockney, we've got Casa, you mentioned Jillian Airs, and I feel like Lucian Freud is I think also that attachment to Sigmund Freud, I can't help but be interested. speaker-2: Yeah, I'm always thinking about Lucian Freud. My students are sick of me talking about Lucian Freud. I every every day I bring up books for my students to look at and Lucian f there's always one Lucian Freud book. I think I have five or six of his books at at school. the other artist I I talk about a lot at school and I don't really think of his work much in the studio, but at school I think of his work all the time as ⁓ Lu Zedong. You know, similar there's similar crossover with with ⁓ Lucian Freud. ⁓ but I just love the directness, the confidence, the ⁓ the color. and it astonishes me how effortless they look. ⁓ and they're massive. Some of these paintings are massive. and a lot of them he's painting from life. speaker-1: I was gonna add I I could be wrong, but is he you know a wet on wet painter? Are these ⁓ yeah yeah, yeah. Somebody actually mentioned him recently to me as an alaprima painter, and that is part of what blows my mind is they seem so well rendered for that approach. speaker-0: Also, I was telling Ryan, because we did look up Jillian airs before we you hopped on. And I was also seeing a connection between Michelle's work too, which I don't know if you see. speaker-2: It's funny because I actually bought two books of the same same one, one to take to school for my students, and then I bought the other one for Michelle. ⁓ but she hasn't really opened it. And ⁓ I've been looking at it for the last couple of months, ⁓ almost every day in my studio. And ⁓ I left it open on a page that I think she would like. And ⁓ like an hour later she was like, ⁓ who's that? I think that's how we both are though. ⁓ you know, we'll see something and then it'll like plant the seed and then, you know, you kind of just you have it somewhere in the back of your mind for a year, two years later, or three years or whatever. You know, you don't really know how to use it immediately. speaker-1: the other direction though where she'll plant little artistic inspiration for you as well? speaker-2: ⁓ for sure. The other day she came in and I was working on a painting and and ⁓ she was like, ⁓ your painting's looking like mine. And she's the reason I started going larger a couple of years ago ⁓ when she started painting, ⁓ I think she only she's only been painting for three years. and ⁓ you know I was working really slow, slowly on this. like thirty by forty painting or something and and ⁓ I look over and she's working on a six by five foot painting and like filling it up and like whoa like never seen that before and ⁓ yeah I mean she inspired her work inspires me all the time. speaker-1: I wonder with that scale, how you think about kind of the philip physicality of approaching a work. Just because when I'm thinking, you know, you get so large, especially if it's something with a lot of kind of energy in it, ⁓ all of a sudden you're using different parts of your body. so I don't know, just any thoughts on that? speaker-2: While I was working on my last three solo shows with Dolby Chadwick, most of my paintings were done standing up and using my full shoulder and like but it's not like I'm slashing across the whole painting, you know, like Jackson Pollock or something or Decooning. They're the earlier ones were pretty small pieces, on a larger scale. And it My solo show a year ago is the first time those that the six by five foot paintings were did have a little bit of that dacooning element to it where stuff did feel a bit more abstract. There was I was using a larger brush, and ⁓ yeah, just getting a bit more movement. But yeah, that on a on a mental weight, mental physic physicality. I don't know if that that sounds right, but they they were heavy. You know, like mentally. It was there were they were hard to ⁓ to start. But once you started it was like, you know, that the six by five foot paintings took about eight weeks, like six six days a week. speaker-0: to ask like when you are when you have like finished for a show do you feel like a sense of like release or is it like you go through a depression or I don't know like what's what do you feel after you've like made all of these paintings? speaker-2: Both maybe the night of the opening, I feel relief and excitement and release, you know, like a party. and ⁓ but as soon as I'm back home, it's the you know, post post exhibition blues. ⁓ I s and it hits me hard. ⁓ you know, if I don't paint I usually after a show, I don't paint for a week. Sometimes it could last like three or four weeks. and ⁓ yeah, and it's it hits me hard. I'll you know, I'll I'll tell Michelle like I'm so worthless right now, what am I doing with my life? Let all that kind of talk goes through, you know, those thoughts go through my head. speaker-1: It always gets me into these kind of philosophical or psychological thoughts around, you know, why it is that artists not only make things but exhibit them, you know. And how that act is so necessary. I kind of joke about it as, you know, speaking of Freud. That idea of the anal stage is like, you know, kids get to this place where they are really excited that they took a shit, right? And they're like really excited about what's in their diaper. So my sort of joke is we're all living in that stage still where it's like, look, I just made this thing. Right. But you know, I'm I don't know exactly what my question is, other than to say, like, I I'm curious, is some of that downtime enforced as like a mental health refresh? Or is it just a ⁓ more of a dearth of inspiration? And how do you spend that time? Especially if it's like three to four weeks. Are you taking in other artistic inspiration or are you just kind of doing other things? speaker-2: It's hard to think about exactly what I do, but yeah, I do play guitar. I'm learning how to play guitar. I play every day for about an hour, maybe two hours, if if I can, every single morning. and I walk, I work out, ⁓ I go to the grocery store. I feel like when I don't have when I'm not painting, I feel like the days fly by like that. Like there's so much to do, whether it's clean the apartment, do the dishes, grocery store, laundry, and then all of a sudden it's like 8 p.m. or something. And I'm like, Well, how did this happen? How does this get done when we're working all the time? And then I get used to that. I get used to not going to studio for a week or something. But like the depression like starts to build. Like I'm like, what am I doing with myself right now? I should be painting, you know. ⁓ but going to the museums, going to other people's art shows. During that time I'm really social. It's really easy to not work in San Francisco, I feel like, in terms not financially, but in terms of like there's always something to do. Like there's ⁓ you know, friends openings, museums, bars, just you know, you can I can get sucked into the ⁓ the social life. And then as soon as I want to get back in the painting, I feel as as soon as someone asks me to hang out, I like freak out. I'm like, doesn't everyone know that I have to paint? You know, like so there's that that battle. and it's so extreme for me. I've never had a healthy relationship with with my work. I think. You know, it's it's ⁓ right now I I I'm tr that's sort of my goal right now is to and I think I s touched upon it earlier is like my work is getting a bit softer maybe and I'm just trying not to be so stressed or concerned about getting paintings done in time for whatever they need to be finished for. ⁓ and just allow them become. And that's becoming a lot easier. I shouldn't say easy, it's not the right word, but it's becoming achievable for me, painting from memory. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: Because I have no idea what this painting is gonna look like. I don't have a a sketch, I don't have a ⁓ a design that I have in mind. I literally just start a painting and just see where it goes. ⁓ baby steps. I mean I'm I'm saying I'm you know, ⁓ achieving this goal of of not being concerned, but it's only been like two weeks. So far so good. speaker-1: Yeah. It's that you know, that most challenging goal, right, within the consumerist structure, markets and all that, right? Where it's like it's such a strange ⁓ I don't know, relationship to the world to be an artist and then to be ⁓ in this position where, you know, you have to produce things. And so I feel like even if it's been two weeks, it's a really admirable. endeavor and it it made me wonder, you know, do you how do you think about kind of success and failure within the actual work? So you're talking about painting from memory. And I know personally my struggle often is that I don't know, perhaps I'm just too uptight. and and I'll find myself going into a territory that ⁓ I probably need ⁓ I've heard people talk about shadow work and doing that through painting. Anyways, what I'm thinking about is do you have moments where those memory paintings feel like they fail, or do you feel like you're kind of always able to tap into some meditative place and and get to something that feels like success? Or how do you think about that? speaker-2: know I think I always just even if the painting isn't good or not it's resolved. You know? ⁓ so I think I've I've always that's one thing I I think my work maybe once I started showing in galleries has always had I think is some sort of resolved state. And again not not saying that that's good or bad ⁓ because I love work that feels unresolved but it's you know, ⁓ hanging in a gallery or in a museum. ⁓ some of my favorite pieces are like that and that's ⁓ a little more daring. so I think and that's a goal of mine too. And I think I'm I'm allowing myself to do that with these new pieces and not again, easier said than done, but not think of them as good or bad. with my own work I'm always gonna ask myself, is this good or not? Or whatever, you know, so one in one way or another. speaker-1: I just gonna ask, you mentioned seeing unresolved work that really ⁓ sparked your interest or that you fell in love with. Are there examples of that that you can think of, or is it more of just a vibe? speaker-2: ⁓ I mean, you can have unresolved moments. I mean, even just like edges on a painting. you know, some Philip Gustin paintings could feel unfinished or unresolved, but maybe unresolved is not the right word, but just unrefined, maybe. they're not overly polished, you know, it's on an illustration. And I I think that's really what I want with my work and as a in a as in my journey is to not feel like I'm just creating a product that's pre-designed. I I really do want it to feel to not even to feel, but to be created on canvas. Fight it all out on canvas. Like the battle is on canvas as opposed to, you know, I'm not you I might sketch some ideas in a sketchbook, but I'm not going into Photoshop and like testing colors or like you know copying and pasting things and like composing it on a computer or like that. You know, I want it to all be sort of resolved on Canvas. And again, nothing wrong with using those tools. I think for me personally, I just, I I want that in my work. speaker-1: Escot ⁓ I guess famously would, you know, cross parts of the painting out or add, you know, I always thought that was so just badass, right? Just to leave ⁓ the a trace of the thing that came before and just keep going. ⁓ and it does take a certain kind of courage that I think that kind of ⁓ predetermined ⁓ or like pre-production, right, work ⁓ is almost saving you in advance from perhaps Happy accidents or speaker-2: Yeah, and looking back at my work, ⁓ I've always liked the the paintings that I feel like last for me that hold up when I look back on, or if an image pops up on Instagram or something, something that I painted two years ago or five years ago or whatever, the ones that hold up are always the ones that were a bit more daring, like that impulsive and maybe not my favorite pieces at the time, but with time. You know, the ones that maybe were a bit more pre-designed sometimes feel too much of like a a product, you know. ⁓ speaker-1: So ghosts are just those influences, histories, lingering presences. and maybe that is, you know, I feel like we talked about, I don't know, did we talk about the here and now, like the ones influencing this particular work that we saw at Ibister and the work that's in your studio, or were we talking more about the broader, like lifetime ⁓ giants? speaker-2: The ones that are in my head right now, so this is post Ivester work ⁓ for the oil the oil paintings. ⁓ those are the artists that I mentioned. So Julian Ayers, Leon Kossov. and yeah, those are really the the two that are that are that are in my head right now. and Vuillard actually. ⁓ so Vuillard is another one that it's to me is sort of a late, I'm ⁓ That was a slow burn for me. Fouillard always felt very decorative. and ⁓ still feels pretty decorative, but those shapes are like there's nothing wrong with decoration, you know. and so yeah, those those three right there are the ones that I'm the and again, I don't know anything about their their lives. ⁓ what we're gonna say. speaker-1: Yeah. I was just gonna say that whole that whole crew is interesting. ⁓ let that be the sort of post impression like Bernard. The one I feel like do you know I I know this is not the correct pronunciation, but Valaton's work, Felix Valaton? Yeah, ⁓ I guess that was all sort of loosely ⁓ they were grouped together, right? And I feel like Vouillard somehow speaker-2: Boneard. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ yeah, mothers worked. speaker-1: I don't know, he he perhaps is playing the Robin to Bonard's Batman. I don't know, at least in my own perception of the way these guys are talked about. speaker-2: Yeah, I mean Bonard is up there, I think, in the same I think Bonard is a bit more accessible, maybe. the shapes, the silhouettes are are more legible immediately. The colors, ⁓ the scenes are everything's just it's not as abstract as some bill yards. You're like, what is is is there even a figure there? You know, they can get really abstract. and both of them shocking at how big they can get too in terms of size and ⁓ their their paintings, you know, the some of the impress the impressionists, the difference between Bonard and Bouillard, well Bonard especially, I've seen massive, massive Bonard paintings, ⁓ like mural size almost. And you know, none of the Impressionists were doing that except for Monet, I think, that did it after the fact, you know, ⁓ towards the end end of his life. I love the Impressionist, ⁓ Van Gogh is one of my I mean, how can you not love Van Gogh if you're n if you're a fan of Lucian Freud, I feel like you have to be obsessed with Van Gogh. They're almost I think, you know, for me, Lucien Freud was the next Van Gogh, even if he forced it. You know, he earned it. he just worked so hard. speaker-1: I would put Alice Neal in there too. I feel like Alice Neal's somebody who seems so indebted to Van Gogh, in a great way. Similarly, like there's some lineage there, yeah. speaker-2: Yeah, I love Alice Neal. and ⁓ you know, s especially her seventies ⁓ stuff, but the older I get, ⁓ anything that I see Alice of Alice's from like the forties, the fifties, that y you're like, Dude, these are incredible. You know, and there's German expressionism influences and German painting and ⁓ American, Americana, there's speaker-1: They're dark, right? Like the when I think of dusk painting, ⁓ that I wanna say is from that era where it's ⁓ I wanna say it's like an anti communist protest or something, but it's just so brown. And there's like some work about her losing a child. yeah, that stuff is amazing in kind of a completely different way. speaker-2: Very dark. Yeah, and very natural, real themes. Yeah. You know, and s same with Van Gogh, even though Van Gogh had these like ⁓ ideas of being larger than a superstar essentially, ⁓ with you know, he opened the door similar to Moonk in a way as well. ⁓ there's a lot of Moon in Alice Neil's work. ⁓ whether it's the staging, the shapes of cars, even, that Alice Neal painted it it some paintings look like they could be a monk painting, you know. speaker-1: I'm glad you brought him up because when we were at the gallery the other day, I mentioned the specific painting called The Murderer. It's like a plotting guy who looks like he had just killed somebody. But there was something in looking at your work the other day that I was thinking I I have to ask Emilio about monk or or monk And yeah, I mean I'm curious if he's at all consciously an influence with this current work or if that's just again, background, you know, getting in there whether you like it or not. speaker-2: Yeah, so Mook for me is one of my all-time favorites. So he's up there on the the the list. I have a a moon tattoo on my I have actually three or four moon tattoos. speaker-1: Would it be too low brow to ask you if we can see the monk tattoo? Is it is it on your arm? speaker-2: No, I I think ⁓ let's see if I can get this off here. speaker-1: I just a monk tattoo is is badass because I feel like it's all about speaker-2: Well th this is the most cliche one that you can get. The screen it's upside down. ⁓ yeah. I guess it would be like like that. There we go. Yeah. and then I do have another mook tattoo right here. It's from etching isolation, it's just a a female's back. and then I have another mook tattoo up here. ⁓ and speaker-1: Sure. That's good. speaker-2: Yeah, I've got I've gotten some art tattoos. ⁓ a Shigal, Mark Chigal tattoo. ⁓ he's one of my that was more of a nurture artist for me. My mother ⁓ was obsessed with Shigal. and ⁓ I think ⁓ Chigal's a really popular artist, ⁓ you know, for pr and people to kind of decorate their homes with and stuff and speaker-1: Dreamscapes and kind of cats and things that I feel like Chigal to me seems so ⁓ like I don't know, the veil feels very thin. Magical, yeah. But it but also rooted in reality, right? Where it feels like magical realism or something, where you'll get these surrealistic things happening, but we are still in the human world, right? speaker-0: Magical. speaker-2: Yeah, and it if you look if I when I look at my work, I mean, I've never been afraid to allow things to live in this sort of space of the universe of the canvas. You know, it's never not all my paintings need to be an actual scene that's grounded. ⁓ you know, things float, they become collage a collage, like it's it's and it I think a lot of that does come from from Moonk. ⁓ I'm sorry, ⁓ sh ⁓ Chigal. And the ⁓ the romantic side of Chigal, like not being afraid to to ⁓ to to be soft I suppose or and you know to have love as a as a theme. speaker-0: No, I was gonna say that we also had talked about ⁓ Dana Schutz, like just with the texture. Do you like her work or how do you feel about her work? speaker-2: Yeah, love it. Love Dana's work. I have a book on my of hers on my coffee table. and ⁓ I don't Dana Schutz's work is is anytime I see her work in a museum, I immediately walk right up to it. Like I have to see this beast of a painting, you know. It's it's incredible. We we recently had one ⁓ at the art fair here, along with one of her sculptures that was just incredible clay sculptures. And I love how handmade, homemade her paintings look. You know, they're they're ⁓ and and they're a nod to art history, you know. She's in in conversation with Gustin, obviously, and ⁓ the not afraid to ⁓ paint an eye super large, a head super large, like Morph bodies together, be abstract or also be have a narrative side to it. She's one of those painters that ⁓ you know, like Lucien Freud, like Van Gogh, like Alice Neal, that everything they do is is art. Like you can have a show of theirs where you have an oil painting, you have a couple of doodles that are framed from her sketchbook, there's sculpture, like just a completely well-rounded. Artists. speaker-0: Something that I've noticed is the repetition of eyes from your earliest work, but also kind of I'm thinking like 2020 to 2024-ish. Like I think you would paint a lot of self-portraits where your eyes are like so enlarged purposefully, or maybe not. And so I guess like, what's your thing with eyes? And also. You I bought one of your paintings and it's it's in our bedroom and I told Kevin and Ryan that it feels like you and Michelle are like looking at us, like watching us sleep at night. And it's like you're our guardian angels like watching over us, but the eyes are like so intense, you know? And I know like people say, you know, the eyes are ⁓ the soul of the person, but yeah, what's your thing with eyes? speaker-2: Honestly, painting eyes just started off as a study. Like I was just learning how to paint and ⁓ learning how to draw and ⁓ the portrait. It took me forever to even just sort of understand how to paint, sculpt the portrait. I just I still don't think that I'm that I was still learning. ⁓ but I remember just sitting one day, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna practice eyes and then noses and mouths or whatever and ⁓ Like most things, like when I practice guitar, I'll sit and I'll practice. I'm like, okay, I gotta learn these arpeggios, you know, because jazz players talk about arpeggios and so I'm like learning and then as soon as I learn, instead of practicing it turns into art somehow. Like I just end up using this the the little bit of knowledge that I've that I just learned and and using it towards my my art. And ⁓ I think that's how it was when I was doing these studies with eyes. And I was like, I'm just gonna fill up a page with eyes, and then it ended up turning into a work of art or a project or whatever. and so that's really where that came from. But the actual maybe the gaze, the way that I think an eye should look in a painting comes from Velasquez, I think. ⁓ so ⁓ that to me is is ⁓ I think I've always understood that that's where the pose, the like still when I when I do portraits ⁓ like a just a normal portrait, I'm you know, always thinking like Alaska's with the eyes, you know, there's that just staring right back at you. You know, that's and I think his works are are very existential. speaker-1: very alive and and therefore yeah I there's something in what you said that really connect I connect with about you know that impulse that I feel like is this kind of artistic disposition, you know, where you get that little chunk of you know, whether it's an arpeggio or it's you know an approach to making an eye, and you're like, I've got to run with this and turn it into something even bigger than it's single part, right? And I don't know if this is a personal question exactly. I'm just curious if you can trace, you know, is that something that is just as far as you're concerned, genetic, you know, that you were sort of born with that kind of an artistic impulse? Is it something that you found through like fos being fostered by other folks? or where do you think that comes from? speaker-2: I think once I once thought that maybe it had to do with me being ⁓ being in ESL, English as a language. ⁓ and I think for a for a couple of years where drawing seemed to be the easiest thing to do. Like not like I I you know, I don't wanna make it sound deep or something, be like, ⁓ I'm trying to communicate visually or whatever. It's just it was just easier to draw perhaps maybe that and then listen in class. You know, I wasn't the best student. but I was always a very visual person. Yeah. ⁓ but yeah, no one in my family, immediate family, was an artist. My mom was creative in sort of a crafts craftsy kind of way or craft way. she would do a lot of my homework for me. and she would do my art my art homework for me too, my projects. I remember We I had a turn in a book report and she ended up like painting all of my all of these like portraits of all the characters and ⁓ the paintings got into the principal's office and like they were mine, but my mom painted them. ⁓ and totally and I think I mean I must have like she probably forced me to like put a couple speaker-0: So funny. speaker-1: Sweet. Yeah. speaker-2: On there so that would have my hand in there or whatever. But for the most part, I think she like she definitely painted them. and same thing, I I there was another book report where I had to recreate like a little golden. You remember those golden books from back in the day? And ⁓ so I made like a Matilda version of a golden book. And I feel I illustrated everything on the inside, but my mom ended up making the cover and it was like speaker-1: That's great. speaker-2: so professional. There was even like a gold leaf, you know, on the corner bound with the little golden drawings. ⁓ yeah. It sh it looked like a real golden book. And everyone was so wowed by it, but just because of the cover, you know, the object they it was like a an a work of art. so she she would always put in the work, you know, the time into these things. And I I I think ⁓ and it's something that I hadn't thought about until maybe a couple of years ago. But yeah, other than homework projects, she she wasn't like, you know, making you know, she she didn't have an easel and anything like or a sketchbook or anything. speaker-1: Or do you feel like that attention to craft is something that carries over as well? So like beyond the impulse, just that attention to a certain kind of detail or finish? speaker-2: Totally. And my dad's the complete opposite. My dad is DIY to the max. Like it it looks homemade, you know, not in a good way. speaker-1: Yeah, that's that's the if it ever comes to, you know, home ⁓ improvement projects or something. It's gonna work. speaker-2: For sure. speaker-0: ⁓ have you ever thought about cause I was thinking like you you're painting world, you're like observing the world and then painting it. Have you ever thought about like re I don't know, regurgitating that and making like a sculpture and then painting a sculpture, like bringing elements of the paintings back out into the world in a 3D form? speaker-2: Yeah, I've thought about it. ⁓ I think about it all the time. And I ⁓ I think it just goes back to a cup my personality. I I get I think, wow, am I gonna waste two weeks or three weeks learning how to do this or should I go into the studio and paint? You know? and I also teach like you guys ⁓ do. So it I don't have all the time in the world. and the space too. I don't I'm ⁓ yeah I don't know. I've never I've done I've dabbled with clay a couple times. In grad school I did an egg crochet, you know, like a half skeleton, half anatomical three foot ⁓ figure. And that was amazing. That was so fun. but yeah I would I would love to to do that ⁓ sometime speaker-1: Yeah, I was think of imposto as beginning to try it's like trying to become sculptural. Right. Because it is ⁓ there's already that, you know, almost like topographical surface. ⁓ and it was almost like reaching out, being like, make me into 3D. Yeah. speaker-2: It's funny because people do ask me that all the time and and ⁓ in my head I'm like, I don't even know how I would do that. Like I don't I I don't have a visual of but see, it's it's very hard for me to look outside in. Like I don't think I have a particular style. ⁓ I think whenever I paint, every painting looks vastly different. Whereas someone like Dana Schutz, you know, a squiggle or a oil paint or a sculpture, they all have her signature on it. You know. whereas I think when I look at my work it it doesn't have that. speaker-0: That's crazy to me because I feel like I could look at any one of your paintings from any year and I'm like, this is Emilio. 100 million percent. And honestly, because me and Ryan were talking about like art ghosts, and I had brought up like Philip Gustin and Joan Brown, and like how their art went through like such crazy trajectory. And I feel like that's just what you're going through. Like you're kind of in your abstract. Figuration period, you know. speaker-2: Yeah, I I love artists like Gerhard Richter, for instance, another one of my heroes and his you know, he can he paints complete abstraction to photorealism, you know, but there's still that Gerhard Richter, you know, or or refinement. Totally. Yeah, they're all he ⁓ he was able to get away with it with that, you know. But yeah, it's it's it's so simple but so brilliant, you know, with Gerhard Richter. speaker-1: Stroke. speaker-2: And Picasso the same way. Picasso did everything. And I I love that. and every period of Picasso is absolutely brilliant. Like his El Greco blue period and rose period, to being inspired by Cezanne, even his paintings that look like sergeant in like when he was 18 or whatever, you know, like he he has and the later paintings, I know a lot of people don't really like those, but those are some of my favorite favorite paintings, like nineteen sixty-nine, nineteen seventy, right before he died. looser, larger, thinner, you know, it's incredible. speaker-1: Just watching him paint too, you know, those films of him just doing his thing and you know, the his ability to he was just such a master that just the movement of his hand, you know, you y i i it's one of those things that if you don't know how hard it is to get there, it's hard to appreciate, I imagine. speaker-2: Yeah, it's it's wild because I mean, are we ever gonna get there again to the like the Picasso phenomenon where like there's the the beauty in that performance where now it is a performance. If you see someone on Instagram just doing a couple of easy strokes, like Picasso, it's sort of sell out y or faux pas, you know. whereas Picasso did it at a t at the time when film was new. you know, in terms of documenting painters in a way. ⁓ I mean there's the famous video of or story, I guess, of the f the filmer trying to document Pollock painting and, you know, supposedly hating the whole process. speaker-1: Yeah. It kind of caused well, I suppose there's an argument that's made that it almost kind of caused his death in the sense that he hated that experience so much it it drove him back to drinking, right? That and that kind of mm that's probably too ⁓ a pat of a conclusion, but anyways, that's the way I've h heard it told sometimes is that that's how he ends up in the car with those ladies running into a tree or whatever it was he the speaker-0: Okay, that's I mean we definitely talked about your process, ⁓ but guts is process risk and what is actu what it actually takes to make the work. speaker-1: So just anything you wanna add about, you know, that that perhaps you haven't yet. speaker-2: You know, with with my work changing so much, ⁓ people ask me all the time about, ⁓ what are you what's your next thing or what are you gonna do next? And I I I don't like thinking of it that way because then it sounds like a brand or something, you know, like I'm I'm purposely trying to change and I just naturally let it change. If I'm if I want to paint a realistic portrait today, I'm gonna paint a realistic portrait. If I want to do something that's completely new and different. Like I'll I'll go for it. You know, and and then there are days when I feel obligated to paint in the series or the body of work that I'm that I'm currently working on, you know. but ⁓ you know, it all takes guts. I mean, even just showing up to the studio instead of just sitting at home and watching Netflix or, you know, watching trash T V, ⁓ which I love I love doing speaker-1: Say what are your styles though right now? speaker-2: man. Last if you asked me last year, I would have said ⁓ Love Island and ⁓ Vanderpomp Rules. I watched I've never seen that show and and I watched the whole thing and it rotted my brain. I had to I had to stop. I haven't I haven't watched reality shows in a couple of months. ⁓ but ⁓ yeah what what do I watch? I watch movies ⁓ A lot of music documentaries and crime documentaries. I watch every I've there's I've probably seen every single crime documentary you can on Netflix and and ⁓ HBO or whatever it's and I rewatch them sometimes. speaker-1: Did you watch Should I Marry a Murderer? speaker-2: About yes. speaker-0: ⁓ I did see that 'cause you told me to. speaker-1: We were it was tough because it's such a terrible story, but it gets to a point where that woman went so off the rails that it becomes sort of hilarious because she's like just in this completely manic state. Anyways, I don't wanna get sidetracked talking too much. speaker-2: W w I know the ⁓ the title. See, I watch so many that I forget what speaker-1: ⁓ I don't want to do spoilers if you haven't seen it, but she's it's a Scottish woman who meets a guy on Tender or some similar similar app, and you know, they hit it off, everything's great, they get engaged, and then he confesses when they're engaged to the fact that he and his brother hit some speaker-2: I'm I've seen it for sure. Yes. Yeah. speaker-1: Say it again. speaker-2: I was just saying these stories are unbelievable. speaker-1: Yes. Growth is our final G, ⁓ which are you know in regard to you know, we have it sort of phrased as what the solutions you see, and I guess that's kind of assuming it's almost tying back to that idea of gripes, but you could also think about it just ⁓ in how you envision, you know, the future, whether that's you know, the next week, the next speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: month, six months, you know, where are you in five years? However you wanna take that. speaker-2: Yeah. this is the fur so I guess going back to gripes a little bit, the ⁓ the rat race of it all, you know, galleries putting on three solo shows a year or two solo shows a year, it's it's gnarly. That's that's so much. ⁓ and I did that for a long, long time. ⁓ whether it's two solo shows and a group show or two group shows and a solo show. Or just two solo shows or whatever. But ⁓ there's always that like what's next, what's next, what's next? And and even if I don't have a show, it's like making a body of work and trying to sell it on my own or or whatever. But this is the I specifically told my gallery that I wanted to put hold put my show off for one more year. So I have an extra year to create work. So ⁓ My last solo show in San Francisco was a year ago, 2025 June. and my next solo show with them is 2028. ⁓ wow. So ⁓ for a couple of reasons. One, I just want to slow down, make ⁓ give the the work the time that it needs. Just let it evolve without there being a deadline. That's around the corner, you know. ⁓ and then also a test of like, will these works hold up? If I do make something today in 2026, will it hold up 2028 solo show? You know, I the answer should be yes. You know, if you go to, you know, you're seeing works that are a hundred years old, five hundred years old, like ⁓ that shouldn't matter. So I think I'm trying to get rid of the idea of like trying to make something, I don't know, for now versus just make not even thinking about time, just thinking about me, right? And and ⁓ what what I want to make versus how does this relate to the world or or the current art climate or whatever. and ⁓ speaker-1: It may have been in in I think it may have been in the Kevin talk, but you were referring to old work as almost like looking back at an old picture and an outfit. and the way in which you'll look back and you're kind of like in the moment you feel great and then you look back and you're like, What was I thinking when I went out w wearing that? speaker-2: ⁓ my gosh. I mean that's that's ex I'm gonna watch this video a week from now or something like what was I thinking? Well why speaker-1: Ask it because that that ask of yourself is such an interesting one and it does feel like it harkens back to some of those giants that we were talking about in the sense that sometimes it can feel like that idea of making like timeless work. ⁓ and I put the scare quotes around it because it can feel like overly dramatic or something to people, maybe. And and I wonder, you know, but I but I am with you, like that idea of ⁓ and this isn't perhaps the right word, but like almost a certain type of universality or something that can reach across a couple of years. Do you how do you deal with also that thing that you named about yourself? And I would say I definitely have too. I don't know, Sydney, if you do that too. Although I know we've been talking about these videos we've been making like ⁓ but anyways, how do you reconcile those two things is my question. speaker-2: ⁓ I mean I don't know if I can answer that, but I well, I mean, the way that I would that I'm thinking about it now or what it just sparked in my head is creating it's almost the opposite of what you what I would think I would need to do. It's just creating in a vacuum without really thinking about outs having any outside influence. and ⁓ Not saying that it can't be influenced. Obviously, I'm influenced by everything. You know, I go to the museums all the time. I look at books. I'm I'm online. I'm researching art. I'm curious about new, I just want new art. ⁓ but from the past, really. I'm I'm big on that. And I do the same with music. I'm constantly discovering musicians from the 60s, 70s, and 80s ⁓ that I've never heard before, albums that I'd never heard. ⁓ and I mean a cliche example would be looking at the ⁓ you know the last four years of the Beatles. They they were on top. And, you know, the earlier mid-albums are are solid, but like Sergeant Pepper to their f to their final album, those were the years where they were on top of the world, but also had all the time in the world to create. And they were in their own little vacuum. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: Not saying that they weren't influenced by the outside, but they were trailblazers. and legitimately in a vacuum, you know, they had records to listen to and they had T V, but not like we do now. You know, we have everything at our at our fingertips. they also had huge teams. speaker-1: Have you watched that in ⁓ documentary, the Let It Be? Like you w you did watch it. speaker-2: Yeah, I've seen it a few times actually. ⁓ speaker-1: Watching them actually work, you can feel exactly what you're talking about, where you're just like, you know, blown away ⁓ at at them the level that they were at, where it's like McCartney just kinda fooling around and all of a sudden he writes one of the greatest rock songs of all time, you know. anyways, I hear you. speaker-2: No, that that is inspiring. I every time I watch it, I think I'm going to hear I'm like looking out for the answer of the meaning of life, you know. Like I I feel like they just they know it. And they kind of do. It's it's that almost in its sense, is just, you know, just just create, really. But it it's not so frivolous. They're putting so much work and energy into it. Especially Paul at the time. And yeah, I don't know what the original I forget what the original question speaker-1: I forget to speaker-0: Do you think that like this getting easier for you as you're getting older? Like the like the self doubt or the, you know, I'm just gonna paint whatever the fuck I want, like, is it getting easier or I don't speaker-2: think it's getting easier or harder. It's always been hard. It's never been easy. The days when I think it's easy, it's when the painting is done. And ⁓ and I look back, I'm like, ⁓ that wasn't so bad. And then I'm out out with my friends, like having a beer and feeling like the best feeling ever 'cause I just finished the painting, you know. And then you wake up the next day and you're like, Holy crap, there's there's a blank canvas now. Like and it starts all over again, you know. So it's It's ⁓ what's what's that story? The Sisyphus point putting pushing the rock up the hill. Yeah. it's that sort of you know, that's that's the you know, twentieth twenty first century or whatever is that that idea of just okay, we got one rock up, let's put push the next one back, you know. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah you speaker-1: I was gonna ask if you wanna do the rapid fire. speaker-0: Yes, I I was just gonna say that before I get into the rapid questions. ⁓ because I don't I don't know your upbringing, but you're Hispanic, I'm Hispanic, and I've my grandparents are from Mexico, and I've just had this, you know, I grew up in South Texas and I've always felt not exactly connected to my culture. And I think like your Hispanic group's roots show in like symbols of your painting. Sometimes so I guess I was just gonna ask you like how connected do you feel to your culture? speaker-2: I ⁓ I feel very Mexican. Like I feel Mexican, even though I was raised in the US. I feel like I'm taking a tour of the US. I'm obsessed with American clothing, American music, British music. and ⁓ and I think that comes from my my dad. My dad grew up in Tijuana and his joke when you know, in the w when I was growing up, any time he'd meet someone and someone'd be like, ⁓ you you grew up in Tijuana, like what's what's you know, what's what's cool about ⁓ Tijuana? My dad would like San Diego. And he was obsessed with ⁓ British music, German music, American music. My dad like didn't wasn't really you know, he didn't play soccer, football or whatever, he played basketball, you know, like he wasn't my dad's very like my dad you if you hear him speak he sounds you know, like English is the second language for sure. so maybe that's where I got my obsession with like American culture, and and music, but I feel Mexican, like I feel like I have Mexican blood. My mom's side, ⁓ they mostly still live in Mexico and they're from ⁓ Mexicali, which is south of of Calexico, ⁓ which is somewhat near to where Carlos lives. ⁓ in ⁓ India. but when I was a child I grew I used to spend summers and Christmases ⁓ weeks at a time in Mexico with my family. and I've always wanted to live in Mexico. Like my dream as a kid was one day I'm gonna live in Mexico as an adult. And and then it became Spain. You know, I want to live in Spain. but ⁓ I guess to sorry, let me to to answer the the last part of that question. My work is never I've never tried to be. I guess I've never tried to be anything but who I am, right? But my painting I've never wanted or necessarily made my works to feel like Mexican painting. ⁓ and there's all there has been it's you know I've had interviews with galleries before where they say speaker-0: Right. speaker-2: You know, why why are you painting a Budweiser can and not a decate or something? And I'm like, well, my grandfather drank Budweisers in Mexico. Like you can drink Budweisers in Mexico if you want. Like doesn't, you know, just the same way someone's drinking a modelo here in the US. It's it ⁓ so my my paintings have never felt like or I've I've never tried to make them feel like there's definitely Mexican influences, naturally. You know, I love Rufino Tamayo's work. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. speaker-2: and his work, you know, similar similarities to Gustin there, ⁓ in his brush strokes and and certain you know, he also had a wide range of of of ⁓ aesthetic, I guess, or or design choice or pictures, I should say. and ⁓ you know so maybe there's a little bit of that in in in my work sometimes, but yeah, there's never consciously been like, ⁓ I'm gonna make like a a Mexican painting or something. speaker-0: Okay, cool. Okay, and on to the rapid fire. What color reminds you of Michelle? Pink. ⁓ interesting. I was gonna say red, but okay. speaker-2: I was gonna say red too, but when I met her, she had pink bedding, pink everything. Like everything was pink. Like her mirror, the the makeup bag, the backpack, like everything was pink. It was insane. speaker-0: Okay, cool. Okay. If you could smoke a cigarette with any artist, dead or alive, who would it be? speaker-2: I mean Lucian Freud. speaker-0: Okay, cool. I would probably do Philip Gustin. speaker-2: Gusting would be good. I mean I could you I could say anyone, Hockney, I was Neal. speaker-0: Yeah, that's speaker-1: I think there's some line where he was like, I had to get out of there, you can't smoke ⁓ anywhere. speaker-2: ⁓ is that right? Yeah, I I just quit a year ago and it's ⁓ thanks. But yeah, it was definitely tough. I would I saw Hockney, you know, saying just seeing Hockney smoking all the way up until he died, I mean, I'm like, well you know, I can do that. speaker-1: Lynch Lynch is the other one for me like that where I'm just he committed to it and I think it took him out, but it seemed worth it. speaker-2: Yeah. It did, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and it's like a luck of the draw. I mean, you have no idea. My grandfather smoked f until he was like fifty or fifty five. He didn't die until I think ninety one or ninety two. Wow. ⁓ but he didn't smoke all the way up until his death, but he did smoke for a long time. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. okay, when you paint a figure, do you think of them as the ones looking at the viewer or the ones that are being looked at? Or is it both? speaker-2: Yeah, I guess it's situational. Like do I think of the character as as we're looking at them or they're looking at us? speaker-0: Yeah. But also I guess when you're painting it, like are you like, Wow, like they're looking at me? speaker-2: Maybe when maybe when you paint the eyes is you can you can they they become real. yeah, I've d I've never thought about it that way. I think my paintings are so I I feel like I know that I use a lot of texture, but I feel like my paintings are so flat that I'm just trying to make them three dimensional. Like not necessarily alive, but then once I do put eyes on them, I think maybe they they can there's a character there. But I'm not over I'm not I'm just trying to get it right. Like not overdo it, not underdo it. But yeah, there's a that that's a that's a good question. I've never never really thought about the actual process, but yeah. speaker-0: And then Kevin told me to ask this to you. So when did you get your first tattoo and what is it of? speaker-2: ⁓ man, that was my first tattoo. My first tattoo was a a tekate bottle on my arm. So not a budweiser. speaker-0: Okay, cool. ⁓ well that's my last question because you answered all the other speaker-1: Weren't you gonna ask something about horoscopes? speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, you're a Scorpio. Do you really feel that? speaker-2: I honestly I don't know anything about that stuff. I have everyone yeah I was just gonna say everyone everyone thinks that this is a but it's just an ⁓ for Michelle. speaker-0: Okay, 'cause you have a here. speaker-1: That's funny. speaker-0: That's so funny. speaker-2: But I just it just happened to work out that I'm a Scorpio as well. ⁓ I had no idea this was a Scorpio sign, but every single store that I go to and I'm buying something, they're like Scorpio I'm like, Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: It's on your your ring finger as well. I I didn't process that before. That's cool. speaker-0: Yeah, that is very sweet. speaker-1: What's your sign again, Sydney? Okay, I know my can. speaker-0: I'm a Virgo. And I know Michelle's a Libra, I think, which is probably weird that I know that. speaker-2: No. ⁓ she ⁓ it's funny 'cause when I got this, we were in Spain. and it was right after we got engaged actually. And I was like, ⁓ I'll just get ⁓ I didn't want to get a ring, so I was like, ⁓ I'll just have to her name here and we were both gonna do it. But then she saw me go first and she was like, I'm good. So she ended up just getting hers like on her on her wrist or something. ⁓ But it doesn't hurt that bad on on the speaker-0: Also I know we're kind of near the end, but how did y'all meet? Like I am just curious on that. speaker-2: We met in a rock climbing gym. speaker-0: Random. speaker-2: Yeah, very random. yeah, I was right after I graduated ⁓ from art school, I ⁓ I wasn't painting much, ⁓ because I didn't have space and I had just started teaching. and ⁓ yeah, I was climbing all the time. And I met so many of my closest friends. My best friend ⁓ is a climber and ⁓ This was around two thousand by two thousand eleven is when I really started climbing like seriously. And then we met ⁓ end of twenty thirteen and ⁓ we started dating around early early twenty fourteen. speaker-0: Well, very cool. speaker-1: Right. Well, I feel like we should ask if there's anything else you want to I don't know, shout out, plug, ⁓ I don't know, SLC theories you want to share, anything on your mind? speaker-2: No, that's yeah, I think we we covered a lot. This is great. This is so so fun to talk to you guys and and speaker-1: Thank you so so much. This is your our inaugural ⁓ episode and interview, which I think it's such an honor to to have been able to do it. We've been we have been really looking forward to it and this has been honestly even better than ⁓ I I could have expected. And I don't know. speaker-2: Amazing. speaker-0: No, I know. I have loved I mean, I told you this when I met you in person, but I'm just like, Yeah, I love your work and you're just so inspiring to me and I also told you this in person, but you're really just doing the you're you're doing the thing. Like you are very inspiring to so many people and yeah, just happy to have met you and everything. speaker-2: ⁓ thank you. Likewise, I mean it was I I think I told Michelle the next day is ⁓ you know, my coup couple of drinks in me ⁓ I have I always give like unsolicited advice, you know, maybe it's just a the teacher in me, but I like, Man, I just hope she doesn't like just forget everything I I even said that night. speaker-0: ⁓ no, it was so good. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, no, this was so so great. But we should let you go. And thank you again. I I mean and also for being willing to take so much time with us. ⁓ 'cause it's one thing to listen for a live training, it's another thing to to actually be here with us for all that time. So speaker-2: No, it's been amazing and ⁓ thank you so much for for having me on the show and for for you know ⁓ for being the f the first one. It's it's an honor. If you guys make it a hundred, just hit me back up for the hundredth episode. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, I would love to. speaker-1: Commitment to that. I like that. All right. Well, thank you again. speaker-2: All right, thank you guys. speaker-0: Alright, talk to you later. Take care. Bye.