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The TikTok Hearings, Explained · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I don't other Stephane
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: never told you appection, but I heart radio and today
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: we are thrilled once again to be joined by the delightful,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: the winsome, the dessert expert. Maybe we were talking off
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Mike about our favorite and least favorite desserts. Yeah, very
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: strongly about merangue. Oh my goodness. Some of us feel
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: very very very strongly about their dislike merangue. Not pointing
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: to myself or anything. I love it. I love these
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: strong favorite opinions. I still maintain we should have like
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: a mini podcast where we just talk about desserts. I figured,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: three of us can we bring desserts and then like
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: somehow try to share each other's favorite desserts with each other.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: That would be the way to go. Somehow we like
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: post it something I don't know. Okay, I wouldn't I
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: make that happen. I think we can make that. The
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: funniest thing is I'm not a huge dessert person, so
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: I'd be the one true co host a food podcast.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: How are you add into desserts? Either are fine? I'm
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: just like not the thing that I go for a lot, Okay,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: savory thing, right, Also, you'll you'll try almost anything even
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: if you're allergic to it. So therefore, I think she
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: maybe like the expert because she's willing to do all
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: the things just to try, and she will never let
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: anything go to waste. So I feel like she's the better. Yeah,
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: even with mint, I don't like. Do you not like mint?
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: I hate? I don't like mint in desserts. I'm learning
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: a lot about your taste. No, I love it. I'm
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: just allergic to it. I'm intolerant to it. Yeah, what
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: do you do for toothpaste? I suffer. It's miserable. There
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: are tooth I could solve this problem. This is an
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: ongoing issue with me. I could solve this, and I
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: continue to not do it because she refused to buy
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: something new. I'm going to send you some cinnamon flavor toothpaste.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: That's what I I don't like, miss, I love cinnamon. See,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: this is gonna be easy, easy fix. Such an easy fix.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: It so a solvable problem. Well you are back in Washington,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: d C. Bridget and happy belated birthday, my birthday, pie day,
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: which I feel like as a geeky nerdy person. Of
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: course it is three fourteen. Did you have any pie.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Did you do anything fun? I didn't really do anything fun.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: We I had just got back from my trip to
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Mexico City, and so I was in that weird time
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: where you're like, I've just been out of a country
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: for a long time. Is this like, this is not
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: my beautiful house, this is not my beautiful life. Like
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: I was like really taking having a weird re entry
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: back to my regular life. So my birthday was spent
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: just like on the couch watching television, which actually was good.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Was fine, yeah, yeah, lower key. Yes. Well, Samantha and
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: I are very very grateful you're here to talk about
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: this today because we were talking off Mike before you
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: came on. We don't really know what's going on here,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: and h it's confusing, but it's in the news, it's everywhere.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Everyone's talking about it. It's true. So I'll do my best.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: So I should say it right off front. There are
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: parts of this conversation that I'm not the expert on,
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: but I will do my best to break it down.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: And that is the congressional hearings and conversations around banning TikTok,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: which I'm sure folks have been hearing about, even if
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: you're not a TikTok user. You've probably cursory seen like
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Congress people asking goofy questions to TikTok ceo. So yeah,
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: I wanted to break it down. This is the best
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: of my ability, Thank goodness, yes, because it is a lot.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: It is a lot. It is confusing, and I was
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: trying to think about this. It feels to me very new,
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: and that it's not that we haven't had conversations like
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: this before, but to have a serious, like congressional thing
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: about like let's just get rid of this thing right
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: in this country feels unique to me. I don't know
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: if that's entirely true, but that's how it feels to me. Yeah,
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: I'm struggling to think of another social media app that
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: we have had conversations that rise to like the president,
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: you know, in Congress about just an outright ban. I
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: don't know that I'm really strong if there is some thing,
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: So if someone is like driving right now and they're
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: like screaming an example the top of their lungs, please
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: let me know. But I can't think of a time
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: where that has happened. And I feel like this is
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: different because it's happened so quickly. I feel like TikTok
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: really rose in popularity in the last few years, and
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: I think going from it not really being a thing,
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: to it being a thing that people were like, oh,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: it's just an app for kids, blah blah bla, to
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: it being ubiquitous, to now the conversation being about it
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: being banned, all happening within the span of a few years.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: That feels different to me as well, right, I guess
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: I have a lot of questions just because of the
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: So we know that Zuckerberg had to go and testify
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: in front of the courts in Congress as well because
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: of disinformation and misinformation of being allowed to be posted
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: onto Facebook, but there was no real conversation about it
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: going away or him doing anything wrong other than do
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: you take responsibility? How are you going to change to this,
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: which ended up being nothing. They're like, yeah, his fine,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: it's not his first amendment whatever. And then having when
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: Trump was president, him coming in and threatening and banning TikTok,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: saying that TikTok was a spy for China, which was
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: all about the xenophobia which happens with COVID and everything
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: else has happened in the last five seven years, so like,
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: this has been a bigger job, and I guess which
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: was really interesting. And what I don't quite understand, I
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: don't understand at all is who's in the right and
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: who's in the wrong. That's a great question. That is
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: not a question that I can answer definitively. I'll try
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: to break it down and then I'll give some of
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: my like lingering thoughts towards the end. But yeah, I
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: should say that this is a conversation that many people
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: that I trust and respect have different takes on. I
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: did an interview on my podcast there are no girls
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: on the Internet with this TikTok disinformation researcher Abby Richards,
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: who I'll refer to later in the episode today, but
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: she is a fervent TikTok user. Her academic and professional
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: work is Happens on TikTok, where she was one of
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: the first people to call TikTok out for the way
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: that it can spread hate speech, conspiracy theories, miss and disinformation.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: But she believes that a TikTok band would harm marginalize
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: people the most. And so there are people like that
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: who were like, absolutely no, do not ban it. And
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: then there are other people who I also respect and
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: trust in the space where like, oh, well, banning TikTok
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: might actually be a good thing, because you know, TikTok
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: is the most relevant social media platform out there right now.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: Twitter is really in this like weird, nebulous space. If
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: Twitter is in this weird space and TikTok goes down,
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: we might actually have a chance to sort of restructure
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: our social media ecosystem without the current giant that is TikTok.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I agree with that, but I
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: guess what I'm saying all of this is to say
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: that I don't have the definitive answer. But I first
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: started researching this topic, I was like, I don't really
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: know where I stand. Having done that research, I think
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: I am coming down in favor of the idea that
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: banning TikTok is not the best solution. But again, that's
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: I am. That is just mine. That's just one person's take.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: I've seen many other interesting takes that I'm like, oh,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: that makes sense to me. I respect that, Does that
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: make sense? I feel like I'm rambling. No, no, no,
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: I mean I feel like dust. The whole thing of
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: TikTok is kind of going trying to reason out when
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: it is the most plausible decision or what's the most
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: responsible because there is no good or bad in this there.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: It's all kind of like, oh, this could be bad,
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: this also could be bad, but also this could be good.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: So it seems like that's that kind of conversation in itself. Again,
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: I'm a TikTok fan that I do love what I
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: get to see, but again, yeah, how does it even start? Yeah, well,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: so let's let's get into it. So last week, folks
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: might have seen that there were congressional hearings where members
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: of Congress grilled TikTok ceo show z Chu. So the
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: big thing to know here is that TikTok's parent company
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: is called byte Dance, and they are a Chinese company,
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: and the people who want it banned are essentially worried
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: that it's meteoric rise represents a national security threat because
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: it is owned by their parent company, Byte Dance is
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: based in China, a country with whom the United States
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: has had like a chilly diplomatic relationship, And so this
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: comes at a time when more and more state governments
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: and institution are cracking down on TikTok on state issue devices,
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: like if you there are a lot there's like a
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: growing number of universities and state agencies that are if
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: if they give you a device, or if you have
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: a state run device, you're not allowed to have TikTok
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: on that device, and lawmakers are proposing bands of TikTok.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Two weeks ago, the Biden administration demanded that TikTok be
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: sold or that it would face a ban in the
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: United States. And this is not just like hot air
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: or posturing. Congress has also rolled out a bipartisan bill
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: allowing a nationwide TikTok ban, called the Restrict Act, which
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: would allow the Secretary of Commerce to ban apps that
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: pose a risk to the US's national security. A sale
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: of TikTok would require the Chinese government to go along
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: with it and agree, and perhaps unsurprisingly, they're saying like, no,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: we will not authorize or approve a sale of TikTok.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: In response, TikTok has committed to spend one point five
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: billion dollars on a plan that they're calling Project Texas,
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: which would essentially enact a stronger firewall between TikTok and
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: employees of its Chinese based parent company. Byte dance. It
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: would all be set up through a US tech firm
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: called Oracle as kind of dislike watchdog organization that's meant
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: to scrutinize TikTok's source code and act as kind of
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: a third party, unbiased United States based monitor to monitor
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: for like potential security risks. And so that's kind of
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: the zoomed out conversation about what exactly is going on
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: and the contact behind how we got to these hearings. Yes,
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: and you know, it is like I've used the word
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: confusing a lot. It is confusing. But it's been one
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: of those things where we've heard a lot of lawmakers
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: ask these questions that make clear they don't really understand
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: any of this. The congressman be like, what's the internet?
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: So if I'm all Wi fi and people making a meme,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: there's been so many means, all my questions of the
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: congress people asking the most ridiculous questions with chosen phase
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: going one. Yes, I mean it reminds me of when
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: I go visit my parents, and you know how when
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: you visit I mean, if your parents are something like
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: my parents, you have a nice meal whatever whatever. And
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: then the tech support part of the evening starts where
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: it's like what, like can you do this? Can you
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: delete that? Like what's our Wi Fi password? You know,
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: like two to remote controls? Like so many Oh my god,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: here's a pessay for anyone listening. Do your parents have
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: favor change their Wi Fi password to something like easier
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: for them to remember, so it's not just a random
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: collection of numbers and letters that they have to read
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: out to you while they're there. You know, that's exactly
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: to me. The few bits of the clubs that I
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: saw was literally feeling like watching my parents asking what
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: is this tickety talk? Totally you're so right. So there
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: were some good questions that came up, like a said
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: one lawmaker asked about whether or not marginalized creators are
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: suppressed on TikTok by the algorithm. Another one asked if
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: the Apple was suppressing accurate content about abortion. So there
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: were some like good questions where I'm like, oh, that's
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: a good question, But there were so many more lawmakers
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: asking questions that reveal that they have no idea what
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: they're talking about. Probably the one that got the most
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: play was Rep. Richard Hudson of North Carolina asking about
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: like whether or not TikTok I think I think he
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: was trying. I think the substance of the question was
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: if you're using Wi Fi on your phone and are
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: using TikTok, can TikTok access other devices that are on
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: that same network via your Wi Fi connection. I think
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: that was a spirit of the question, But the way
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: that he was asking it was like, does TikTok access
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: the home Wi Fi of a user? Made it made
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: it seem as though he was not clear like the
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: relationship between Wi Fi and TikTok, you know what I mean,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: Like it wasn't a question that voted a lot of confidence,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: is what I'm saying. And you know, it's It's one
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: of those things that you really get a sense of
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: the fact that so many elected officials are meant to
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: be legislating technology that they just perhaps don't even really understand.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: And I think we're seeing that with so many different
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: types of tech like conversations around AI. I think is
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: another one where it's like stuff is moving quickly and rapidly,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: and we really need elected officials and people with power
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: and institutions to be advocating for the best interests of
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: the public. If you aren't able to do that. It's
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: actually like that is actually a pretty big national security
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: risk in my book, right right, Yeah, And I get
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: that we have this conversation about national security threats and
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: invasion with privacy as we have constantly having to update
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: our privacy notices from everything electronic whatever it may be.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: My phone just recently did it our audacity which we
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: use to record on the like terms and conditions are changing,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: and we have already had this conversation about the fact
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: that our phones are listening to us because you can
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: say a store and the next thing you know, it
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: pops up as an ad for you. And we know
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: that in China at this point, I believe Facebook has
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: been banned and they use their own technology because kind
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: of on that same line of what's happening with a
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: concert of TikTok. But I have to ask, how is
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: this so different from any other apps that we would
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: use for social media. That's a great question, and I
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: would have to say it's not really that different other
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: than the fact that TikTok's parent company, byte Dance, is
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: a Chinese company. Right, There's not many differences, Like most
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: if not all, of the harms that TikTok is responsible
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: for that came up in that hearing. Aren't true about
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: every other major social media platform as well, and so
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: that was something that I didn't love about. What came
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: up in that hearing is that, like, if we're going
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: to be making TikTok the poster child for harms that
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: all social media platforms are responsible for, we should have
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: a clear reason why we're doing that. There should be
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: some kind of smoking gun, some kind of evidence, some
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: kind of something that's like, well, here's why. And so
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: the big question of the hearings is whether or not
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: TikTok is actually a national security risk. This is a
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: little bit above my pay grade. I am not a
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: digital national security expert, so you know, just take that
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: for what it's worth. So during the hearing, TikTok CEO
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: was grilled about his relationship with the Chinese Communist Party
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: and whether Project Texas was going to be enough of
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: a solution. I am concerned that what you're proposing with
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Project Texas just doesn't have the technical capacity of providing
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: us the assurance that we need. This is from California
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: Republican Jay Obernulty, a congressman and software engineer, I should
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: also say that like TikTok does not have the like
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: squeakiest cleanest record when it comes to privacy and how
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: they handle your data, of course, like most social media
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: platforms do not. And this definitely came up in the hearing.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: Neil Done, a Republican from Florida, asked pretty bluntly whether
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: or not byte Dance has quote spied on American citizens,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: And we actually know that the answer to this is
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: probably yes. There are reports last December that TikTok access
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: journalist information and an attempt to identify which employees had
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: been leaking information to those journalists, and TikTok actually admitted
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: to this, according to an internal email. When asked about
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: this directly, TikTok CEO responded that spying is not the
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: right way to describe it, which I don't know. I mean,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: it does kind of sound like spying to me, Like
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: if there's some sort of nuance in like, you know,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: maybe maybe from his perspective, if the thing that you're
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: trying to sniff out is which of your employees is
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: leaking information to a journalist, maybe that's the distinction that
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: he's making. But you know, it doesn't sound great. And
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: so when I say that, like, I don't want to
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: make it seem like I am suggesting that TikTok is
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: a perfect platform where things like this never happened, because
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: that's not the case at all. That we know that,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Like this is an example of you know, perhaps TikTok
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: doing some things that work great, but this is, I
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: hate to say it pretty in step with how social
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: media platforms behave at large. Like I wish that wasn't
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: the case, but that is the case. I mean, it's
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: kind of we've seen a live play with Twitter as
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: it's breaking down of which they are going after people
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: or people that they don't like or disagree with and
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: not necessarily docting them, but definitely cutting them out and
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: making sure that they know they being the people who
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: ever did this, are that they are being watched quote
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: or any of those things are being seen by Twitter themselves,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: the company. So it's not like this is anything new.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Once again, it's very concerning, but that's kind of that
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: acknowledgments us having a phone that is connected to WiFi,
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: that is connected to any type of internet or any
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: of the data they're getting our information, that that's I
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: would assume that we all understood this totally. So that
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: is really my biggest point that I always come back
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: to in this conversation. We don't have any kind of
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: meaningful data privacy legislation in this country whatsoever. All of
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: our information is for sale by whoever wants it, and
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: I mean that literally. I've done a whole episode about
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: doxing and how people do get doxed on their no
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: girls on the internet, and essentially, if you've ever done
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: anything like voted, or turned on the electricity in your apartment,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: or paid a parking ticket, your information is for sale
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: on the internet. Oftentimes it is put there by our
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: state agencies. That information is just available widely for whoever
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: wants to spend a small amount of money to buy it.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: I wish that wasn't the case, but that is the reality.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: And so the fact that we are talking about banning
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: TikTok when if the whole national security threat is China
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: having access to American data, all of that data is
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: for sale. So like if you banned TikTok, that would
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: still be the case. China would still have access to
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: American data. It wouldn't be from the TikTok app, but
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: they there's it's just a widely available and so I
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: feel like banning TikTok is this flashy scapegoat of like,
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: see we did something when in reality you've done nothing.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: The analogy I use it's like putting bars on your
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: window when you don't have a front door. Right, It's like,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: we desperately, desperately do need meaningful legislation that protects user
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: data and user privacy. But banning TikTok will not get
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: us there. We will still all of our information will
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: still be widely available to whoever wants it. That's the problem, right.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, let's be honest too. I think Choe was
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: not wrong when he said that the hearing felt like
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: it was a xenophobic attack, Oh my god, whole group
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: of people rather than just a social media platform. Absolutely
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: so um. There is a great piece on this by
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: CNN's Brian Fung, who I actually know. IRL. Shout out
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: to Brian Fung, where you talked about how some of
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: the some of the rhetoric coming out of those hearings
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: just felt very xenophobic, and so TikTok Ceo Chow he
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: is Singaporean, right, and so accusing him of working with
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: the Chinese government and trying to associate him with the
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Chinese Communist Party is like just doesn't feel it doesn't
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: feel like helpful rhetoric. And to me, it did feel
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: rooted in xenophobe. It felt rooted in this idea of
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: making this connection to China feel other and thus like
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: nefarious or suspect or something. And so if there was
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: some kind of like smoking gun right that the Chinese
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: government is using TikTok to spy on Americans in mass
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: and there was some sort of evidence or a smoking
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: gun to illustrate that, I would have that we would
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: have that conversation. But right now it is just so
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: based in like hypotheticals like well they could you know,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: that is a potential risk, And it just feels like
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: adding this assumption of nefarious behavior simply because we're talking
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: about a Chinese company, does that make sense? Yeah? No,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Like this is kind of the big question in this
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: rise of age and hate, in this level of discrimination
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: when it comes to anything that's coming out of China.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: It feels like they're playing into while we're already kind
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: of scared and we have a base of people who
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: are going to blame the Chinese for everything and anything.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: So let's go ahead and start this when in actuality,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: this type of privacy in data collecting has been happening.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to think back, didn't the Congress actually bypass
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: a privacy data law in order to get more money
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: out of like companies a while ago? We are based
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: straight up don't care like that's the thing. It's like,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: this is just me kind of like tinfoil hatting a
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: little bit, So take that for what it's worth. But like,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: I think that when there is a foreign boogeyman, you
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: see elected officials acting differently, but when given the chance
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: to legislate and govern and act on these very same issues,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: when there isn't some foreign boogeyman to blame, they do nothing.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: They've had the opportunity to act and they have done nothing.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: So for me, it's like, is this really about security
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: and harm and risk? Because you have done jack up
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: until now. So if it truly is about protecting the
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: public from harm, you need to then explain to me
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: why at every opportunity that you've had to act, you've
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: done nothing. Like that needs to be explained to me
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: because I don't get it or actively voted against it,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: which we saw again like I remember this coming about
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: and people talking about we need more laws, and so
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: lawmakers did and then it just went nowhere. And you're like, wait,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: so do you actually care about I privacy? Are not?
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you were to again, so much of
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: this sounds like I'm, I'm it sounds like a conspiracy theory.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: But I know that part of this conversation is the
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: immense money and energy that Facebook has put into lobbying
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: elected officials into seeing TikTok as harmful to take the
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: heat off of them, and in some cases, you know,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: I would wonder if elected officials have some sort of
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: financial connection to Meta right, Like during that hearing, I
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: heard specific talking points that I know came from Facebook's
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: massive lobbying company called Targeted Victory, where they assign blame
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: for you know, these challenges that they say start on
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: TikTok that were where kids end up doing them and
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: then and then dying or getting hard harming themselves. But
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: those some of those challenges actually originated on Facebook, and
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: so Facebook actually had a huge pr campaign to make
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: the public and elected officials associate TikTok with harmful challenges.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: You know, misinformation, all kinds of bad stuff that they
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: themselves are are also pushing, right, And I want to
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: come back to that point in a second, but to
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: go back to sort of the challenge, the challenge aspects
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: of social media and young people, I think one of
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: the other big pieces of this conversation that also relates
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: to those sort of funny and distressing soundbites, is that
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: older people don't use TikTok, whereas they might use Facebook,
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: or they might use something else, and therefore a very
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: dismissive of it, as like, oh, this is young folk
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: hooligans using this one totally. So I still hear people
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: talk about TikTok as a kid's dancing app, and I
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: always a bristle at that because that is just not true,
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Like TikTok is a discourse app, like it is not
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: just for kids dancing. But it is absolutely true that
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: it has a huge young fan base. According to The Guardian,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: a majority of teams in the US say that they
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: use TikTok, with sixty seven percent of people aged thirteen
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: to seventeen saying that they use the app almost constantly
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: according to Pew, and so it definitely is an app
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: where young people are congregating. But that doesn't mean that
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: it's not an app where serious discourse is taking place,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: because it absolutely is. And so I think that you're
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: exactly right that that is something that takes center stage
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: in conversations around things like content moderation is the fact
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: that it does have a very young user base. And
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: so during the hearings, we saw lawmakers pointing out that like,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: children can have access to content around guns, Like there
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: was an image of a gun that lawmakers pointed to
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: on TikTok that they found very distressing, which is almost
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: humorous to me that it's like, oh, this image of
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: a gun on social media on TikTok. Bad guns in
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: real life, like in schools, hurting actual kids. Nah, Like
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: all good. So that was kind of interesting. And so
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: something that Chew said was that harmful content making its
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: way to miners on social medi the apps is an
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: industry wide challenge, which is true, right, So I think
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: every major social media platform is struggling to make sure
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: that young users are not having access to content that's
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: going to be harmful for them. But the thing that
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: I am like really passionate about is how apps like
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: TikTok promote things like disordered eating or self harm content
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: and medical misinformation. So right now TikTok is facing like
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: lawsuits over young people who have gotten hurt or died
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: because of content that they came into contact with allegedly
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: on TikTok. And so you know, I would say this
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: like this is part like this. I do this for
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: a living. It is like I meet with social media
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: platforms and the leadership at these platforms to advocate for them,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: you know, making platforms safer. And I will say that
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: like carmful, downright dangerous content working its way into platforms
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: is a problem for all social media platforms. I wouldn't
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: necessarily say that TikTok is performing worse than any other
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: social media platform out there. It might be even performing
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: like above average when you compare it to things like
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Twitter or Facebook. But this is a very real issue
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: and all social media platforms across the board need to
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: be doing better. And so the fact that that came
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: up in the hearing, I was like, oh, well, that
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: is actually something that we need to be talking about,
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: But we don't necessarily need to be talking about it
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: in a way that just poses that TikTok is the
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: only bad actor in the space, or is the only
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: platform in the space where this harm is happening, because
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: the reality is it's happening on Facebook, it's happening on Twitter,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: it's happening on Reddit, it's happening across social media. Yeah,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: it's one of those things that feel so strange that
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: we've just accepted it. But it's difficult to find it,
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: I guess, but you kind of know, You're like, well,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: if I'm using my phone, then they're going to know
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: that I looked up this thing or this thing or
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: this nick And I also read that if you don't
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: even have whatever app, it can still somehow get access
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: to your data. So just as kind of helpless, I guess, like, yeah,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: well I get that, and I feel the same way,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: and I think it makes me sad that, just as
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: you said, Annie, we've like just accepted that this is
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: how it is right that, of course social media platforms
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: are going to be making all my data available, whether
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: or not I even use them or have them on
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: my phone. Of course they are going to be listening
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: to my conversations and you know, serving me up ads
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: based on that. Of course, if I am interested in
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: obtaining an abortion, they will share that information with law enforcement.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Like I think that we should be able to expect better.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: I think that we deserve better. We deserve to have
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: better digital tools and digital platforms. We deserve to have
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: our online experiences not just be marketplaces for harm and
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: exploitations and scams. We deserve for them to be places
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: where you can have meaningful discourse, get accurate information in
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: a way that is safe and private. And the fact
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: that we're just like, oh well, nope, that the baseline
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: experience that we can expect is quite literally the opposite.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: I don't accept that. That's unacceptable to me. Oh my god,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: you just completely put into my mind. I forgot about already.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: I can't believe there's so many bad things in the world,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: but I forgot about the case in which Facebook allow
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: for information to be gathered on a young woman and
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: her mom for getting access to abortion and actually being
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: obtained by law enforcement to go after these people. It's like,
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: if the if you want to talk about us, to me,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: what a security threat that would be it? And that
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: was from Facebook not too long ago exactly. So that's
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: such a good point that, like, there are specific and
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: current harms that social other social media platforms like Facebook
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: are responsible for today. Right, We know about that, We
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: know about things like Cambridge Analytica, Right, Like, these are things.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: These are no one of things where it's like, yeah,
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: we know that Facebook has admitted responsibility for literal genocide.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: These are things that we know. They're not hypotheticals, they're
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: not potential risks or potential harms. They're things that are
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: that have happened. And so for me, it's a little
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: bit rich for me to be having this like breathless
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: conversation about the potential harms maybe down the line that
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: TikTok could be responsible for potentially, and then not having
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: the conversation about the laundry lists of documented admitted harms
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: that Facebook has been responsible for already in reality, Like,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: I don't understand how they got to this point where
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: the hypothetical risk takes precedent over the actual documented and
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: oftentimes admitted harm of platforms like Facebook. Right. And you
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: were saying earlier because it sounded like a whole movie.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: It feels like a spy movie, as you were saying,
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: because you were talking about how Facebook has actually been
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: kind of behind the scenes in doing a whole smare
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: campaign on TikTok. Can you talk about the Yeah, So
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: this whole conversation, the whole hearing feels like a real
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: win for Facebook. We already know that Facebook has paid
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: lots of money to try to make people and more importantly,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: lawmakers dislike TikTok, and we definitely saw the impacts of
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: this on display at the hearings. Right. So, those deadly
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: challenges that I was talking about, several of those challenges
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: actually originated on Facebook, not TikTok. And the reason that
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: lawmakers might be associating those with TikTok is because of
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: this coordinated smear campaign orchestrated by Facebook. The New York
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Times found that Facebook paid Targeted Victory, which is one
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: of the biggest Republican consulting firms in the country, to
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: orchestrate a nationwide campaign seeking to turn the public against TikTok.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: This campaign included placing op eds and letters to the
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: editor in major regional news outlets, promoting dubious stories about
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: alleged TikTok trends that actually originated on Facebook, and pushing
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: to draw political reporters and local politicians into helping take
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: down its biggest competitor. This is an email that The
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: New York Times found Targeted Victory needs to quote get
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: the message out that while Meta is the current punching bag,
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: TikTok is the real threat, especially as a foreign own app,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: that it's number one in sharing data that young teens
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: are using. A director for Targeted Victory wrote in a
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: February email, So I really don't like that Facebook is
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: at least pulling some strings behind the scenes of this
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: conversation about TikTok to kind of take the heat off
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: of the massive wrongdoing and public harms that they have
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: been responsible for, like the whole hearing. I'm sure that
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg is like, oh, this is taking the heat
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: off of me. I can keep stay over here doing
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: like evil while TikTok it's all the heat. Yeah, that
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: was my Mark Zuckerberg impression. It reminds me of when
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: I was in college. I had an internship in China
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: and I was working for this big company that will
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: name nameless. But they made me get a different laptop.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: But they made me get a different phone because they
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: were like, once you go through in China, they just
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: take all data. And I remember thinking like I'm an intern,
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: You're not sending me any useful information or emails? Like sure,
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: I'll do it, but like, I don't know what you
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: think they're gonna get from me. And I love how
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: they kind of point out like they're spuning on the US,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: not that the US aren't doing anything amazing, but it's
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: sort of like I think it's all about money at
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: least a part of it is just like we want
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: Meta to make money because it's in the US, sell
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: the data all the time to them. But TikTok no,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: Oh my god. I saw this you USA Today headline
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: that was like, TikTok wants my data? Don't they know
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: that's preserved for Google and Meta? Like very much like
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: we want the West to be where social media platforms
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: and data are our marketplace, Like like I have to
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: wonder if how much of the conversation is exactly that Annie, Yeah,
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: and so I guess this brings us to another big question,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: what would happen if TikTok was banned? Like if we
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: play out this scenario, what would happen? So great question.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: I had an interview with TikTok disinformation researcher Abby Richards
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: this Week, who wrote a great piece for Newsweek which
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: folks should read. In it, she writes, I understand the
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: privacy concerned stemming from reporting that TikTok has been weaponized
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: by the Chinese Communist Party together data from Americans, But
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: banning TikTok is like applying a dirty, used band aid
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: to the gaping wound that is our broken digital privacy
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: status quo. It would do little to protect the data
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: of Americans, but it would cause a whole host of
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: new problems. To address this problem at its core, we
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: must regulate the use of data. Why should Google, Meta
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: and Twitter get a free pass because they are not
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: Chinese owned. If we banned TikTok, the channels of communication
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: that have been steadily established over the last half of
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: this decade will cease to exist, leaving some of the
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: most marginalized in our country suddenly in the dark. The
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: US is at a crossroads. We could dismantle a massive
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: piece of communications infrastructure used by young people, LGBTQ plus
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: people and people of color, exacerbating existing inequalities in information access.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Or alternatively, Congress could implement legislation that serves to protect
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: the digital privacy and safety of all Americans on all platforms.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: And so the thing that Abby is really getting at
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: here is that that I hadn't really thought about until
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: reading her piece and talking to her, is that we're
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: at a time where marginalized folks like trans communities, career communities,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: communities of color, women are facing a lot of attacks.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: And so if you dismantle a platform where a lot
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: of these communities have built up a voice and built
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: up a platform for themselves, you would be setting those
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: communities in and their you know, their work for equality
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: and justice back quite a bit. And I hadn't really
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: thought about that because I don't think I had fully
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: fought through how big some of these spaces on TikTok
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: are in terms of creating discourse. Like I'll be straight
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: up with you, when all that stuff was happening in Iran,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: I don't think I would have known what was going
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: on with women and girls in Iran if not for TikTok.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: That was the first place that I saw it. That
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: was where I saw like conversations about how folks in
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: the United States could help amplify That was how I
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: got connected to have guests from Iran on my podcast,
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Like if not for TikTok, I would not have been
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: able to do any of that. And so, you know,
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: the ways in which marginalized communities have been able to
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: use this platform to create discourse and power for themselves
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: really is pretty vast. And so if we ban it
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: outright that, according to Abbey, that could have really drastic
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: consequences for marginalized communities online. Oh yeah, you say that.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: We literally just had a guest who was Iranian Elka,
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: who has a big following on TikTok. But yeah, on
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: the same way, I would have not known about any
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: of the things going on, even knowing more updated information,
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: because I definitely don't see it on the news. It's
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: very rare that I get to see personal takes on
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: how it's affecting individuals and families that are imprisoned. So
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: but yeah, it is all because of TikTok, and I
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: would have no clue except because of that. And honestly,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: it's helped me connect even deeper into my Korean heritage,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: which I feel so lost about, like I can't. I'm
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: not big on TikTok. I don't post things on TikTok.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: I follow a lot of different people, but some of
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: the connections that I made without them knowing my paras.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: Social connections really have brought me to a deeper understanding
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: or trying to understand myself or like myself a little
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: better in my ethnicity. And I know that's the whole
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: other conversation, but it truly has made me feel a
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: little more connected to a community I felt so ostracized
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: by through TikTok, and I cannot imagine. I'm sure there'll
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: be other platforms. I'm not gonna sit here and saying
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: this is going to be an end all if it
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: goes away, but it does seem very targeted for something
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: that I think has done a lot of good, I
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: know for me and for a lot of people. Whether
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: it is sending out my information to everybody in China,
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: I assure you that you can have it. I'm sad
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: and lonely in itself, but like it really does. There's
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: this level of me being a marginalized person and being
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: more marginalized in a community that's already marginalized, being adopted
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: and being very isolated to that felt so much more
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: connected through creators on TikTok that are willing to share
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: their life so that I feel more a part of
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: that community. That makes me sad. Yeah, And I mean,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: I think I think that you've really said it. I
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: think that all social media platforms have their ups and downs,
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: but we can't discount those the experiences like the one
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: that you just shared about the way that this particular
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: app has enabled folks to really build community, explore their
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: identities and who they are. And if we just blanket
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: get rid of it, where will that conversation happen. I
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: don't see it happening on Twitter. I don't necessarily see
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: it happening on Facebook, right, I'm with you. I think
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: that marginalized people always are able to make a way
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: out of no way. I'm like, build power and communities
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: and feel seen online even in places that are hostile
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: to us. But it takes time. It doesn't happen overnight.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: And I think we're in a weird social media landscape
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: where I wonder, like where what those kinds of conversations
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: that you just describe take place? If we didn't have TikTok,
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: you know, it would certainly take a long time to
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: rebuild them at a time, and a lot of these
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: communities don't really have a ton of time because they're
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: being attacked. Yeah, and I think those are those are
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: great points to make because I know we talked about
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: this in the most recent episode on What's going On
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: with Twitter. It's a lot of people will tell me, well,
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: I don't use it, think well, good for you. But
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: it's like very very meaningful for a lot of people.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: And there is especially if you're in any way marginalized
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: or in a small town for instance, and you don't
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: have a lot of people you can talk to, you
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: go to these social media platforms and you find that
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: and there's something very powerful about that. And these movements
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: have happened on their information has happened on there that
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: has shifted how people think. That has shifted movements. So
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: it's like I just encourage people always like, don't just
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: say oh, I don't use it, so it doesn't matter.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: It matters to sell people. It matters to a lot
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: of people, and it is powerful. That's such a good point.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: I've only been on TikTok for a couple like two years.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: In those two years, I have learned more useful information
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: that I didn't know than my entire time on Facebook
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: and Twitter. Absolutely, hands down, I'm like, did you know
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: what you're supposed to be boiling your wooden spoons, like
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: that's the way to clean them? Who do I think
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: those are who knew this? Like so, I don't want
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: to sound super biased, but I do love TikTok, and
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: I do I have personally seen the ways that it
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: can be really a really important place for discourse and
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: information and communication and community. And I think that given
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: all of that, having people who don't necessarily understand it,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: who've never necessarily use used it, making a blanket ban
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: of it coming from a place of fear mongering, and
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: you know, in some cases xenophobia is not the move.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: I am all for regulating social media. I am all for,
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: you know, a meaningful, comprehensive legislation that protects of the
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: American public's privacy online. Yes, give it to me, we'll
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: take it. Let's have that conversation. I don't see this
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: as a conversation that will bear that fruit that I
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: know that we need. I see this as posturing, scare mongering,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: fear mongering, making a boogeyman of one platform, when what
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: we need is something much more meaningful and much more comprehensive. Right,
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: I completely agree, there's so much confusion because you do
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: partially agree that things need to change on TikTok, but
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: that partial agreement is an arcing to all the social media.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: Like you said that, unless you say that you're doing
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: this for all of social media and inner and all
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: of that and our phone, then we're not going to
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: believe that you're doing this for the well being of
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: a nation. You're doing this for your profit exactly. Abby
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: had a point, she said, data privacy, misinformation, hate speech.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: You got to care about it on all platforms, not
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: just TikTok, not just the one that you can make
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: a foreign biogee man out of. Right, And I would
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: love to keep like pitching these ideas that will probably
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: never do, but I would love to come back to
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: talk about like Also, it's interesting to me that they're
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: talking about this when we've had so many high profile
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: instances lately of like our whole flight system falling apart
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: here in the US because we haven't updated our technology
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: and years. Genuinely scares me. Right, there's so much infrastructure
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: but also tech and digital infrastructure, but we've just accepted
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: it is like yeah it's jankie. Yeah, well basically can't
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: use it. I don't know it. I'll just stuck in
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: the airport for a couple of days. Good. Look, yeah,
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: we just we deserve better. We deserve better. We do
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: we do? Oh well, thank you so much as always,
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: Bridget for coming on helping us to understand this whole thing. Oh,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: the pleasure is all mine. Thanks for helping me. I
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: feel like I was very ranty, but thank you for
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: helping me understand it better too. I always feel like
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: I get clarity from connecting with these issues with you all.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: That's what I feel like that too. I feel like
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: we have good conversations. Yes, it's good in these episodes. Yes, Well,
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: where can the good listeners find you? Bridget? You can
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: find me on my podcast there are no girls on
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: the internet on iHeartRadio. You can find me on Twitter
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: at Bridget Marie. And you can find me on Instagram
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: at bridget Marie DC. And you can find me on
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: TikTok at Bridget makes podcasts easy enough. Like I said before,
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: on these it's so strange. I mean, it's important to
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: be critical of the things that you use, right, but
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: it's always so strange at the end to be like
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: and you could find me on exactly, Yes, well, thanks
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: again as always, Bridgett can't wait for next time. In
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: the meantime, listeners, If you would like to contact as
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: you can our emails steffiea mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts,
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I Never Told You.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: Thanks as always too, our super producer Christina, our executive
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: producer Maya, and our contributor Joey Yes. Thank y'all, and
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: Distraction by Heart Radio. For more podcast from my Heart Radio,
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: you can check out the iHeartRadio ap Apple podcast wherever
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows