Latest / Let Them Fly - Heather Harries Ed Hub / Kindness, Character and Courage: Inside Dubai College with Headmaster Thomas Duckling

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Kindness, Character and Courage: Inside Dubai College with Headmaster Thomas Duckling · Let Them Fly - Heather Harries Ed Hub

• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Let Them Fly, the podcast for parents raising children far from home.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Heather Harris, and after more than 10 years working with families across this region, I've learned that no two children take off from the same runway.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Every episode, I sit down with someone who has built a life worth talking about and who has something worth saying to the parents listening.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: So let's meet today's guest.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Jubai College is perhaps one of the most academically selective schools in the region.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you might expect his headmaster to lead with results.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thomas Dutling leads with kindness.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: He arrived here after eight years at Anyon College in Switzerland, where he built a scholarship program that brought students from places like Somaliland and Palestine into the school.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: He has a degree in history and politics, an MBA in educational leadership, and a copy of Marcus Aurelius on his desk.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: And a line I rather like.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Take your work seriously, but never yourself.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thomas, welcome to let them fly.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's a real honour to have you here.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think Dubai is one of those most disgusted schools.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Dubai College is that most disgusted school in the parent groups against, I guess, across the region.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me why you chose to work there to start with.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a magical place, fundamentally.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's got a beautiful story.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I've been fortunate to only work in those environments.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: And as you mentioned, scholarship and philanthropy are key parts of what I believe in, as well as value-based education.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, our school was set up on a kind of a dream, on a pioneering spirit.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: Tim Charlton, our founder, drove overland in 1978 and was given our land because it was the only thing in between Dubai and Abu Dhabi at that stage.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so much so that uh they used to use it as a point from the airport with micro lights, so you didn't run out of fuel because you knew if you got to Dubai College, you had to turn around and go back the other way and land.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's a it's a really special place, it's a special thing as part of Dubai.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're really proud actually.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um we're proud of being not-for-profit in a very profit-driven industry.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: And we're also proud of the fact that we don't have English or British in our name.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we are Dubai College.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: We were made in Dubai, no one owns us, Dubai owns us, uh, and we are, we think, one of the world's leading uh educational products that comes from Dubai entirely as well.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: So we're very proud of who we are.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's quite a good, I mean, that's that's an amazing claim because Dubai Education Dubai is very strong and it's getting better and better all the time, and all these amazing big brand schools in.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you still stand alone and you still have an incredible place, even against all the new brand names that are coming through.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, look, again, I didn't publish the results this year because I think there's more to education and more to children than the numerical uh kind of definition of them they get at the end of their attainment.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because again, we're into character education, we're developing people.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Many of our children are very able, so actually, the most important thing I can do for them is provide them with the values and the environment for them to go and do good in the world.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: They're probably gonna get great results in a lot of places, you know.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: But if we can expose them to philanthropy and service and an understanding of the world and become globalized citizens that live a life of virtue, then they're probably gonna take those values and go and be successful, but also do good rather than bad as well.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, but foundationally, of course, yeah, we are a product of excellence, and our students more accurately are.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: There was only one school in the entire world that got more A stars than us at A level, um, to our knowledge.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: But we're not tracking results.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: But we're not, but but it shows you the level of quality.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: But then equally, we're as proud of the fact that our we also won the World Netball Games uh in Loughborough, and we, you know, obviously our girls won the Emirates Sevens, and you know, those things are as important for us as a school.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think I mean I've been here 20 years, and rugby sevens always used to be Jubai College playground.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: They used to sort of nail all the other schools, yeah.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to address the elephant in the room, and I think it's the conversation that all parents have applications for Jabai College.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: How hard is it really?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard because it's a wonderful place to be, and we get so many applications, you know.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: So we have a we constitutionally will not go past and break our class sizes.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: So we have 22 uh inner class and we have eight groups, which are 176.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: So we have no interest in growing.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: Again, we're not driven by any need to increase our return just for for the you know for money, so we don't need to grow past that size.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a finite amount of places when we are on one campus, uh, and for that reason, even though we have 176 places, in the last few years we've had around 850 applications uh for those places.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: We actually think, given the way this is tracking this year, we're probably gonna have even more applications this year.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: And do you know what is actually the worst thing about my job?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like when I mean many times I think about this, uh, and you know, yes, it's fantastic that we get these children, but child 177, I feel a huge responsibility for uh because I can tell you that child 177 is probably amazing and probably the star of so many schools, and probably a wonderful person, and that doesn't mean they won't get a good education elsewhere because there's lots of good schools in the city, but not being able to give that child that chance uh is actually a really sad part of what we do.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: So is it hard to get in?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I guess the different myth is though that uh when I go out in Dubai, the biggest myth I have to take on is people think it's a test and it's academic only, which is not true at all.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there is a test to find out academic ability because we really want people to thrive and we want to make sure that we are able to not make anyone really feel like they're out of place.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but we have a look at every holistic profile of every child, we have a two-parallel system to make sure that we're cross-referencing that so children don't get lost.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: We actually discuss and go through all children through our process, uh, and we are looking for artistic skills, we're looking for philanthropic skills, those that give for the world, and we're also looking quite famously for sport as well.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: And again, it's it's kind of you know, and we you mentioned before we turned on uh the idea of there being nerds and geeks, and we're proud that we're a place you can be uh passionate about learning, and we're playing you know, use unashamedly academic where we are.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, people are happy to talk to you about politics.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I took someone on a tour this week, and uh he was a head from another school.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: He said, and we walked through, and there was a philosophy club student run, there were two chess clubs running, and he's like, Have you put this on?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: I said, No, this is just lunchtime at Dubai College.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: So they're special people, but at the same time, 77% of kids last year represented the school in a sport, uh, and we have about 12 different sports that we run as well.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it's important for us that we create human beings that are holistic and uh pursue excellence in all areas.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously, from a I mean, parents, I'm gonna drill down here because um parents, you know, they they come to they they come to us particularly and they want to be tutored to get into Dubai College.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the stock answer we would always give somebody is you cannot be tutored to get into Dubai College.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me why.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh well again, it's fundamentally because we've got two elements of it.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: We have the tests that we do, which are our tests that we've worked with companies for, and they are not uh publicly disclosable.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: You can't find those tests, you struggle to remember those tests uh if you ask people that have been through it, and further to the point, we change them on a regular basis as well, right?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, uh, and this is actually one of the biggest problems we have.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, one of the hardest conversations I have to have with people is after they don't get into my college, and they say, My child has got a CAT score of 140.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I say, Okay.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: And they say, No, you don't understand, you can't possibly have not got into my college, they got a cat score of 140.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I don't discuss where they were, and I don't like ranking children in any way, say, but sometimes those children, because CAT scores are something you can prepare for and you can retake and you can be tutored for.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: There are, I have seen examples of where a CAT score of 140 can be 200, 300 uh down in our list because our test is looking for people that we know will be able to keep up with Dubai College.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: And again, and I you know the bit that people don't understand is I genuinely promise, you know, the the diligence and the care of the admissions department and the lower school team who read every application and every report of every child.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I wish we had more collaboration with junior schools.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: Junior schools that go to year six are fantastic with us and will be really, really supportive and really helpful because they will it'll be a pride for them that their children come to us.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I would say that sometimes for understandable reasons where people don't want the child to leave, they can be difficult uh in terms of our getting of information, that sort of stuff.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: But that's why you can't prepare for it because there's a different test.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, yes, I would say you can't tutor for the Dubai College test.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and I would agree, and I I have to say, it's one of the things that really upsets me is that when people have spent thousands on being tutored for a test that they can't be tutored for, and companies sell it, and it it, you know, you can be tutored on how to how to, I would say to parents, you can be tutored on how to write exams, and that's a really good skill, and you can be securing what you know in year six, but to pay extra to be tutored for a school, I just think is fundamentally wrong.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: My belief is that if you get tutored to get into a school, you're tutored all the way through to school because you weren't right in the first place.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, in terms of I'm going to move on a little bit, and what are you bringing to education in Dubai College?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: What are what are your strengths that you think you specifically put into Jubilee College?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Me personally.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, oh that's a good question.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I mean I like to think, I mean, I think the big focus for us this year is again in that central principle of fact these are very able children, okay, and they're going to be successful.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Now that doesn't mean we still have a we're top 1% in the world for value added, and we believe in value added is a better metric of the impact, and we're adding about a grade to a child on their baseline score, right?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: So we are we're very proud of the impact we have, but these children are able.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess you know, this year, I what are we doing this year is a better answer for what I guess I'm bringing.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: So the target for this year is service for all.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: I've set a target for the children, the staff, and the parents, which is going to be interesting.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that every person needs to do tangible, meaningful service.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think we are guilty, and I think people are guilty of throwing money money at problems going away.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I think from a character education perspective, if you're engaged with service, that transforms your worldview and your perspective on the world.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's different to just throwing money at something.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: That doesn't mean money's not good and money helps uh charitable causes, and we should we should all make charitable donations at times.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: There's a difference for me in terms of when you give your time, you know.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I can think of many a time I've given my time through service for tasks, whether sustainability or whether in homeless shelters and things like that, that they were transformative for me.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to I want that for all children, all members of our community, because I think that will lead to a kindness.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we're gonna we've gone into a partnership with an amazing charity this year that we out we we launched the staff on Monday called Sparkle Malawi.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: We are a fantastic inspirational charity, so we're gonna work with them in terms of how we can, they've got exactly the same values as us about don't throw money at things, give your time, give your focus.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and the third one is we're gonna launch this year again, attached to the same same thread, we're gonna launch change points.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: And we've managed to get a very kind, philanthropic donation from a partner who's gonna mean that everything that happens in school that is rewardable by, for example, a merit transfers to a final don't financial donation which will do good in the world uh and lead to a change.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: And can they choose that?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Can they or is that all gonna go back to Spark?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we're gonna we're gonna we're working with a couple of charities there, and uh so we're just kind of finessing if we should make that competitive or not.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so there's a there are some nuances to how we're gonna do that, which we're not quite sure on yet.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and we're just putting together that proposal.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: We have the donation kindly and we have the concept.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we just need to finesse that to make sure it's meaningful.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because you don't want it to become superficial by the same token as well.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: And hopefully you can see all those things.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I fundamentally believe education is one of the purest forms of good in the world.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I I also believe foundationally that for society and for humanity is probably our best hope, if I'm honest.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: If we want a kinder world, if we want a better world, if we want a more sustainable world, I think transforming the perspectives of children uh through a powerful transformable uh transformational character education is probably our best hope for a better world.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: So so I yeah, I don't know if I'm bringing it yet, but that's what we're aiming for.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely love that.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I've always believed that the more kindness and the more humanity you teach children, and that and in Dubai it's a very hard concept because it's kind of a donation, isn't the same as your work and your understanding, and I absolutely I think that's amazing to do.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I I'm gonna watch that with some some interest.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And in terms of um where your children go, do they have an alumni they come back to?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: So alumni something we're broke we're we're trying to grow even further.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: We do have an alumni, uh, and we we actually have a couple of events around the world.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: We have one in America, one in uh London, and one in Dubai each year, uh, with some other ones that get upset by class reps and that sort of stuff.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's it's been a real shift, it's really fascinating.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: So obviously, we're 48 years old, um, and therefore we are the oldest secondary school, not the oldest school, but we're the oldest secondary school in the British style, as our as our decree says.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and for that reason, uh, many of our alumni past a certain threshold were main predominantly based in the UK.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, what's really fascinating from a Dubai perspective is how many are coming back here now.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, how many, even today I taught a lesson, funnily enough, on moral globalization, and I asked for how many people were born in Dubai, and over half of the class in our uh that put up their hand, they were born in Dubai.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: Now, we sometimes say that we were the school that's the choice for Dubai families because again, we're Dubai at our core, and people want to come to us.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes maybe they don't know us, and maybe we're not as flashy or as got a bigger brand name as some other places.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, so fundamentally our alumni are increasingly coming back, but they're also, and again, with that world-changing element, uh, we got 16 offers for Oxbridge last year, which is astonishing.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: Got 17, 17 Ivy Leagues from our cohort in the same cohort.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, 65% went to the top 1% of university world in the world.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so they they are these are wonderful people, they are much cleverer and more talented than I ever was at their age or ever could be.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they're good, and most of them want to come back to the buyer to do good, hopefully.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: And in a world where AI is starting to infiltrate classrooms at a rate of knots, and we've got schools opening at sort of high brand levels.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: How much AI are you bringing into your school?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're using AI, but I mean, I think AI is a term that's used kind of dis indiscriminately.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, no, as well, no, so I wasn't to criticize, but are we talking LLMs?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Are we talking the Internet of Things?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Are we talking about I guess it's sort of uh bringing it in sort of allowing children to use it to um to increase their knowledge?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we we are we've made AI one of our targets for the last few years, um, and we we have very technological children.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: So innovation, so we've, for example, so I'll give you two contrasting answers to that question, if I may.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: The first is that we've brought in a new curriculum for our year seven called the Edge Curriculum, which stands for empathy design, uh, growth and enterprise.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, our year seven, we're merging digital skills, computer science, and DT.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: They're working in projects, they find empathy, which is they find a real-world problem that needs a solution, they go through an iterative design process, they then grow it using AI models and digital skills, and they need to scale that into a form of a business that they work across through the year through an enterprise point of view.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: So we're trying to align a futures agenda from the very beginning of year seven, solving real-world problems, using technology, and also entrepreneurially making it making value for both society and also for oneself.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, in that essence, we we are very proactive and very progressive in those elements.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: The flip side, I would say, I often say don't ask what AI changes, ask what it won't change as well.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's interesting.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: Character education, I think, again, is AI is gonna change a lot of things.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: Knowledge distribution.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, knowledge uh as a concept is incredibly valuable, but that our interrelationship with knowledge is gonna change fundamentally.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but we're very, very pro, you know, our catchphrase is don't steal the struggle because we think our students actually are so good at mathematics that we're gonna need people like that.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: So actually, go to the core of it, really understanding maths is actually still a really valuable skill.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Having deep knowledge that allows you to have discretion.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: My opening speech to students this year, uh, I said it to the whole school, I said the skill you need to work on that you don't think you need to work on is discretion.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I said 10 years ago, headmaster would never have said that to you, but now you are inundated with media, you can't tell if it's real or it's not Neil.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: You don't know if news is biased or not biased, you don't know what is fact and what is fiction, and actually discretion through a knowledge base, through a character base, discretion is the skill you need for your future.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the other one is Orisy.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: Our kids are amazing speakers, and we've actually just put in our new building and we've put in a enormous space, which we've called the forum, and it is a space with no reason other than to promote ORISE.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's got uh a kind of multi-leveled theatre kind of steps on wheels, and we're using it for MUM, we're using it for debating, we're using it for philosophy club.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so we think that we are progressive, we are innovative, but also we are traditional in that we don't want to steal the struggle of learning.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: We our reading numbers are going through the roof at the moment in contrast to PISA, which is going down.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: We've basically doubled the amount of books that children are reading in our schools.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, so yeah, we are, I would say we're taking a very sensible middle ground.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really that's um so in terms of and what you're describing to me a little bit is sort of almost biased towards the IB style of learning.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: I can sort of feel that.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something you'd ever look at, or would you always stay?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think so because I mean fundamentally I think the the external I I sometimes say, you know, when people say I'm in an IB school, I used to say, when I worked in IB school, I said, I'm not in an IB school, I'm in a school that happens to see IB examinations.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm absolutely foundationally believed that a school needs a value and a vision and an ethos that they need to believe in, and the people within that school need to buy into it.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we talked again before of parents that don't get DC, and it's not the right school for you.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: You shouldn't just want to get in there because you think it's a top school.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, you need to understand who we are, you need to understand what our values are.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: This is not a transactional relationship.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: We are trying to create a unique community, and if you don't like this, then I'm afraid there are other schools that will facilitate that transaction when you need to find your happiness elsewhere.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think that you know, for us, it's really, really important that the school is the key and our vision is the key.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: Examinations are examinations.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: I I worked in the IB for years, I know the IB inside out.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I worked in theory of knowledge.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: We have actually introduced in year 11 something called the Charlton Scholars series, where we're taking elements of theory of knowledge and epistemological philosophy to inspire our children to understand philosophy because we want to extend.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but for me it's a kind of it's almost reductive to the IB or A level that the examination you do helps the child get to the place.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: The school is the core for transformation for me.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, in terms of um entering school, obviously the big intake is year seven.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Do you take children any other years?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, to an extent.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I mean we the one of the best things is my predecessor, Mike Lambert, he made one of his big targets uh retention because he was quite upset by how many students uh were going back to often UK boarding schools for things that they felt at that time Dubai couldn't offer.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and Mike did an amazing job uh in so many respects.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: But one of the best things he did was if you were to look at our attrition, it it dropped pre-war, it dropped to a tiny, tiny amount.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: We were losing about 7% of kids.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um so we do have occasional places as they're called, but again, with the risk of uh upsetting your audience, uh, you know, we had two places in year eight last year where we got about 150, 160 applications for those two places.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you know, it is still very challenging, uh, and I have to say the quality of students that join us at those different points are just mind-blowing children, they're so incredible.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so yes, we do take places, but um only when someone leaves as well.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, and we are fortunate.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: No, look, the war has has led to probably more levers than we'd expected, but also actually less than we would expect because of the war.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we were preparing for the worst, and we've actually had very few people leave.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: So interesting, yeah.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting because when a new school starts in Dubai, and obviously we go and tour them, and almost always somebody in the senior leadership team will be we're we're going to be the next Dubai college, and it's so interesting that even after all those years that you've been here, you're still the benchmark.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and well, we're we're very proud of that, I think.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: Again, you know, it is the the old tagline used to be a tradition of excellence or a culture of excellence as well.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: And that there is a there is a special feeling in the school um that permeates through everything we do.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Again, you know, even it's tiny things like we don't um we don't outsource our ancillary staff and our cleaners.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of schools do.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: Some of our cleaners and our support staff have been with us for 20-30 years.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the the you know what, the excellence to which they provide, if you ask them to set up a hall for a student activity, I promise you every table is gonna be perfectly aligned.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then if it's not, they will be furious with themselves.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so I it is again, it's the one of my favourite parts of my job is when people visit us and they expect something.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: They expect a coldness, they expect a hardness, they've heard the rumours about you know, it's all just everyone sitting in rows, and they walk around and they see just children laughing.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, even this last week I've started a new tradition, which is quite fun.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna every Friday at 10 o'clock in the break.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna play a song and I'm gonna let a child pick the song that goes on.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Assume it's not offensive each week.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it was quite shocking.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: I picked the first one, so I picked Earth, Wind and Fire September uh for um Friday, and it was quite confusing.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: The kids are like, Is it is it is disco playing right now?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's a joyous place.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: And if you walk around our classrooms, you don't see kids sitting in rows, you see kids, we've got whiteboards everywhere, you see kids working all over the place, we've got breakout spaces, um, and yeah, the amount of people.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: That come round, and again, I've had some people come from top schools in the world, uh, some of the top schools in the world who have come around at the end, they've said, I can't believe this place existed because they just whatever they expected, or whatever it was, they just didn't know this existed in Dubai, and even the fact that we've got our campus, right?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: So you don't build buildings, you don't build schools like us, right?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: We're 63,000 square metres for 1,181 kids.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: And we I think we're across 16 buildings.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you're in 1,100.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: 1,181, yeah.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: The 81 makes the difference.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so and you know, we've just so consequently we have trees and we, you know, we have birds uh all around the place.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just a very different vibe to anywhere else you'll see.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's got a lovely campus.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think, I mean, I think the the if you like the myth that the Dubai College, and I and I'm guilty of it, I always say it's a bit of a hothouse, which it is, but only because the level of intelligence of children in there, if you're putting a child in that's not as clever because they've been shootered to get in, or whatever the reason is, they're always struggling to keep up.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: They're always, and that's why it's so important, it's the right environment.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And we do, we do very much say, you know, it could you can make it can feel like a hot house because you're always, always learning.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think you need to I think we need to be open about that.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I mean, hot house sounds intentional, so again, no, no, I don't but so so we would dispute the term or the perception.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: But what is look, I will be dealing with a problem relatively soon.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: I can tell you this, because a year seven parent would come to me and say, There seems to be some misunderstanding.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: My child is in set four or something like that.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: We don't actually set mostly, but or there will be something that this child perceives that they've found themselves in set four, and they said, You must be misunderstood.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: And they'll say, My child has always been top of the class.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I say, Okay, fine, and I'll I'll look into it.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, they're just in set four.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that you know what?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: They're still amazing.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, they're still an amazing child, and they're still brilliant, and they will be brilliant, and they'll probably get straight nines, and they're incredible, yes, and they and hopefully will help them be a wonderful person.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: It it just is that reality, right?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's that's the reality of the place.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I think, and that's that's where where we come from.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: We'll sit with parents, and my child is top of the class, they're always top of the class, and the child thrives on being top of the class, and they will only thrive if they are top of the class.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Then they come to a class where they're not going to be top of the class.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Single swim.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh I guess the difference is again for us, or the thing we would be very proud of is our pastoral system.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, our pastoral leaders, our heads of year, some of them have been in place for 25 years, you know, and our we have a we have a very famous and one of the best people I've ever met, our head of year seven, who I think she's done in her 18th year, getting heads of year seven is.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: And she is famous and wonderful and an absolutely just beautiful person.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so there's a lot of work that it's done, you know.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Last year, rather, our other goal was inspirational tutoring, right?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: So we've actually similarly we've given over more time to tutoring, by which we mean mentoring and guidance.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we have small tutor groups, we have even smaller tutor groups in the sixth form because they need a bit more attention.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I'm a big believer that success in school is driven on relationships, and so we're quite proud of that side of things.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: So sink or swim, you know, we we try to wrap around a child, but you're what you're totally correct about is it it is competitive.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: Again, last year our message, this year it was discretion, the year before was the idea of progress over perfection.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: We found huge issues with children putting and parents, I must say, uh, perfectionism and obsession with perfectionism, and you know, even sounds stupid, but the these mindset, and I I could show you emails from my inbox about um that my child's got 94% on a test, this is an issue.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: Why have what's happened?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's quite an astonishing way of looking at the world and how humans grow, right?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I would say I'd be delighted if I got 94% on any test.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, how humans grow over time, how it's a long journey.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: As I said, for me, the most important thing is the output of the children, and when when the people that left this year, especially must say this year, given given what they went through, so inspired by who those kids are that we managed to produce going across the world.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the key.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: I just if you had to take one thing out of England, which I think is one of the top schools in the world, I don't know if I've said it wrong, haven't I?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Eglon.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Egglon, I always say it wrong.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um is there one thing that stands apart in that school that you would transfer anywhere else?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean I would I would be biased in terms of scholarship, so I'll probably circle back around to that one.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: Look, you know, the the joy of Eglon, because it's a boarding environment in the mountains, uh, is is where it is, right?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm a big skier um and I love skiing.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: So what what so my my silly answer is I'd quite like a ski slope.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um that works outside, obviously.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that would be good.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: So if DC had a ski slope, that would be nice.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, look, I one of my greatest passions was scholarship.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it was a joy for me to head that up, a privilege to head that up.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, at Eglon, uh they aim for, whilst it is one of the most expensive schools in the world, they aim for 10% of the cohort to come from uh somewhere, a scholarship, full scholarship, and that is transformational.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: And again, you know, funnily enough, the boy the head boy who just left was a child that I met in Hargeza in Somaliland.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um and he was one of I think he was one of 21 kids in a family, uh, because obviously Somaliland they have um several can have several wives.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: So he was one of 21 or something like that, something ridiculous.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: His mum worked on a uh she was a vegetable sales, uh had a vegetable market store, and he ended up being head boy of Egolon College, and he's just got a full ride scholarship to go in the world.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: So the power for that, that transformation element, and I would, you know, I would like in the same way that Dubai College is a is a proud institution, in the same way that you know the Yales and the Harvards and the great schools and the Etons and the Egglons have a commitment to genuine access, you know, we need to pay the bills, right?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: So we have to have fees.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: Now we're not expensive fees in this city, as you well know, uh, relative to some of the schools, but you know, I would I would dream of a world where we could be 10% scholar and actually it was just being purely merit-based as well.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: So that long-term goal that would be high up my list.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: If any enough we have at lunch today, one of the things we said is that every child deserves education, and I think we're seeing more and more with parents are pulling children out of school and whatever, and and just not educating them, but every child's basic right is education, and I think that that's got to be standard.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thomas, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you today.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like this could have gone on forever.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: I have one last question, which is a question we ask all our guests.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you could go back to your seven-year-old self and give a single piece of advice, what would that piece of advice be?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's incredibly easy for me not to be a Watford fan.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I I happened to start going to Watford home and away when I was about six or seven years old.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and you know, as I said, we had a head, we had our last head boy actually opened a speech after Tottenham won the league, uh won their first trophy saying, I have learnt resilience from being a Tottenham fan.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I followed up because I was next up saying I have been a Watford fan my whole life.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: Watford have been in existence for about 130 years, and we are yet to win a trophy, so that's resilience.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I think I would advise myself to support Arsenal because I probably have a bit more joy at the moment than that.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: I would love that.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, absolute pleasure.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thomas Duckling, obviously principal of um Dubai College, one of the top schools or one of the most um recognized schools within Dubai over the last 45 years.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for joining us.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.