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Two Names. One Life. Zero Masks. · Mork Unfiltered

• speaker-0: So all of this was happening. I thought my world was literally crumbled. speaker-1: You've gotten this diagnosis and you'd been divorced in this like in the same year. speaker-0: Person of color from the blogs, just not my c story quite. And so I said, Well if I can't find it, I might as well write it. speaker-1: How does AI change what it means to lead people? speaker-0: I had to wear the armor, the mask, when I came into work. speaker-1: Should I really bring this to work? Should I let people know? speaker-0: Share that, you know, I'm not immune to failure, that I make mistakes. speaker-1: What do you think people get wrong about resilience? Welcome back to Mark Unfiltered, folks. For years, my guests today lived under two names. There was the executive, award-winning people and culture leader running HR for a 500-person organization in New York. And there was the other one, the one who wrote the book about the divorce, about the diagnosis, about two weeks alone in Greece, trying to work out who she was and who she was going to be next. She published that book under a name that wasn't hers because she believed two people could not necessarily coexist in the same room. Then a stranger at a book fair told her that she only gets to be one person. Nicole Dubois is Chief People Officer at Graham Windham, an institution found in eighteen ⁓ six. She's been there twenty years. And right now she's running AI pilots inside workforce that is still arguing about what all of this means. This is Mork Unfiltered, and this is the story of Nicole Dubois. Nicole, welcome to the show. speaker-0: Thanks so much. Thanks for having me, Patrick. speaker-1: It's great to have you. It's great to have you. Tell us a little bit about the memoir and tell us a little bit, I think people be curious to know, why not publish it under your own name? speaker-0: Ooh, yeah, let's dive right into that. You know, and thanks for such a great w intro. I was like, My goodness, you got into my head and it was like I was talking about myself. So I appreciate that. speaker-1: This is what I do, Nicole. This is what I do. I get into people's heads. speaker-0: So ten years ago, I was going through what I sometimes describe as the perfect storm of real life circumstances. I was in my mid-30s. I was a HR executive, and I learned because of some symptoms that I had where I experienced numbness in my fingers and numbness in other parts of my body, I ultimately learned that I had relapsing, remitting, multiple sclerosis, lots of testing, all that to establish that. more than one I had you know I had second opinions and I think even a third opinion, you know, from neurologists. And I also made a decision to end my marriage. And so from somebody that I'd met when I was nineteen, we'd been together, you know, almost seventeen years by the time we divorced. And I became a new single parent. There was so all of this was happening. So I Right. And and so I thought my world was literally crumbling. Like, you know, the weight of the world was on my shoulders, perhaps understandably. And so I did the only thing that made sense to me, I booked travel because I love traveling. And so I booked ⁓ a a trip to Greece. I started in Athens. I ended up in Mykonos and then Santorini. It was wonderful. And I actually celebrated my birthday there. And I while I was in Athens, I actually took the climb to the top of the Acropolis of Athens. I literally felt like I was on top of the world. And it was like in that moment I realized that maybe I could take the next step forward. Maybe, you know, the weight of the world being on my shoulders was not like my undoing. And I decided to write about my experience. You know, I wanted I couldn't find There were memoirs that I read. I did a lot of reading while I was deciding whether or not I wanted to actually put pen to paper. And so I saw memoir I read memoirs of other women and their own MS MS experiences. But I couldn't find one that was quite like my story. You know, person of color, from the Bronx, like just not my c story quite. And so I said, Well, if I can't find it, I might as well write it. So that's that's the book. speaker-1: Wow. Wow. And and what did because I I've heard this from a number of people who have written books. Yeah. And you know, I ⁓ I I I did a book as well three years ago. The hardest thing I've ever done, to be honest. I don't recommend it to anybody. But but what what does ⁓ what does writing a book about your story do for you? What what what does it release? speaker-0: Do that. Yeah. No, it's it's that's a a f a fine question because y I realize I didn't answer part two of your question and it kind of relates, which is, you know, why the pseudonym. There are different points of reflection. So even though there was like a a sort of turning point that was the the ba the reason why I got started, right? The the moment why I got stu because of all the things that were happening, I do sort of like reflect on earlier points in my life. you know, damaged relationship with my father. You know, some things that I went through with my mother. I'm an only child. She's overprotective. Some of that didn't work when I was a teenager. It you know, th these types of things, lessons from my grandmother, ⁓ you know, some exchanges with my my late maternal grandfather. And so going through all of that as a part of the process of writing the book, you know, my my my life, my story, it it it was I I was like, I didn't realize I Until I sat down to to you know, to think about like particular memories or whatever, I didn't realize that some of the memories were like so fresh, so v so vivid. Yeah. And you know, when ⁓ and then I had to go through the process of because there's so many personal memories and reflections, I changed names and all that. I had to go through the process of actually st taking tip t tiptoe steps, like having my cousin read and say, you know, what's your thought? Do you think you know, people are gonna be pissed or whatever. And then getting to my mom, and even though, you know, with all the chapters that are in the book, she ins and there's one chapter that's about her, she insists the book's about her at the time. Why'd you write this book about me? And then, you know, then then the name, it it was so funny because my mom originally was going to name my pseudonym is Danielle ⁓ Bryan. She was originally going to name me Danielle. ⁓ and then she said, well she was about to have me One of the nurses said something like, I'm about I'm about to name my dog Danielle. So how ironic. And she dumped the name Danielle. Emma is my real middle initial. And then Brian is my mom's maiden name. And so and so I, you know, so that's how I selected the name. And I just I also decided with this personal journey and narrative that to the point that you ⁓ you raised in my intro, that man, geez, am I ready? I took those steps. My family knows about the story and others that I've had read the book too. But am I ready to like really make the full leap and now have it cross over my story into my professional life? And when initially I wasn't. And so that's that's the reason for the pseudonym. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, I can understand that. I can understand that. I mean, you know, some of these books are very, very personal in nature. And, you know, some people are, you know, more more cautious, I guess, of you know, opening themselves up to the world. I think particularly if you're in a corporate environment where you have a significant amount of responsibility, you know, it's hard it's hard to open up, right? I give you a lot of credit because I think writing a book, you know, for personal experiences is one of the hardest things a person can do. I don't think people realize how hard it is to write a book and speaker-0: Hearing from editors are like, You think that's the basis of your book and and the and the s and the story that you have there, but I see a whole different story. speaker-1: Right. Yeah. People have opinion. Yeah, people have opinions. People have opinions. Like, wait a second, this is my book. But yeah. But yeah, people have opinions about it. And and not to mention the fact that it's a very laborious and very lonely piece of work, right? You're you're really the only one who cares about your book. I mean, it's not like the world is waiting for this necessarily. That's true. Unless you're, of course, you know, you know, if you're if you're, you know, Anne Rice or if you're like, you know, a a very famous author, I guess it's just but and and what did you speaker-0: That's right, yeah. speaker-1: What did you hope to achieve with writing this book? Like what was the end goal for you? speaker-0: Yeah. It was to hopefully inspire even one similarly situated w woman, person that, you know, maybe in a moment where like it just feels like my gosh, I don't see a way forward. You know, to be hopefully an example that even when it feels like that there can be a way forward. And I've come along there's been a long journey even since publishing the book under the pseudonym. Last weekend I actually attended a wellness expo in my home borough of Le Bronx, New York. And I was one of like forty-five people that ⁓ tabled and I tabled with my book. And for the first time I had my book and I had, you know, sort of marketing materials with my my face, my picture. Cool. Because I came forward as a real person behind the pseudonym. And I had one person I had I actually sold all the books I came with but one, which was which was excellent. And what there was the one person that stood out to me who came up to to understand more about my story and so on and I shared this with her. And she shared with me that she's going through her own chemo journey, right? She's an answer patient. And she was about to start radiation I guess this week or or right, I guess w th this week or la last week. And she said, ⁓ my gosh, you know, I can't I am gonna start reading your book tonight because, you know, your story Just hearing you describe your story, it ⁓ it just leaves me inspired. And every every book that was purchased, I I started with the person's name, their name, and then I wrote them a message telling them how powerful they were, how strong they were, how beautiful they were. You know, and so, you know, that was ultimately that was my purpose. That was my vision, was to be hopefully an inspiration. So I hope I hope I've I've I hope I've gotten there. I think I have. speaker-1: Yeah. I mean, you know, I think if if you if you write a book like that that's so personal and you're able to inspire just even one person, you know, oftentimes authors will realize that's enough. Yeah. You know, it's it's very interesting the impact that it can have. And certainly I think in the world that we live in today, you know, this crazy, very unpredictable, very ambiguous, fast paced world, I think there's a lot of people who need hope. You know, I think there's a lot of people who need to to to hear a story like yours. There's this moment at this Book fair in New Jersey. Take take us back to that moment and and what happened and how how was that all of a sudden different? speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. So it was my first time being like in a public setting and y so ⁓ somebody said something to me at the the event recent that the event that I just attended and they said, you know, one thing is being a writer, but when you're an author, you're selling books. And I was like, ⁓ my goodness. I never thought of it that way. It's a whole business and I never, you know, was in a position to like self promote and try to like sell something that I created. So it was just such a Th there was I had all the feelings, like the anxiety, the worry, the excitement, all of it. And so anyway, there were there were forty something authors that were there and and I, you know, I had my custom overlay for the tablecloth. I brought I got these custom bookmarks that were like leather with, you know, branded with the title of the book and like a quote on the back. I'm I'm excited, I'm rocking, I'm rolling. And in addition to like speaking to p folks as they were coming up, there was a a keynote speaker. It was a keynote speaker that was, you know, was facil not a session, but she was she was s you know delivering a talk. And she was she was very engaging and one of the questions that she posed to the audience was, Well, how do you market yourself? Right. And I I I've come a long way since then, but I thought of myself as an introvert. I don't know. I don't think I'm really and I think there's like a a new term I learned about a few months ago, ambivert. I'm probably closer to an ambivert speaker-1: Somewhere in between, right? speaker-0: Yeah, somewhere in the dream. And so I I raise my hand, I take the mic, and I'm like, well, you know, in my day life, I'm an HR executive and I also wrote this really personal story. And so I published it under a pseudonym. And it actually means that I have to have two sets of social media because on LinkedIn I have, you know, a growing following, almost 10,000 followers now. You know, it but but I couldn't, you know, actually lift up my book. You know, as myself, you know, on LinkedIn, for example. So I had to have a separate Instagram account that was just for the book. And so she said, you know, I work in in, you know, the the corporate world as well, and I totally understand what you're saying. She said, But I need you to hear from me. You know, all of your pain, your joy, your struggles, the things that you've gone through, it's all yours. It's all you and you can only be one person. And literally My mom was actually there with me, you know, supporting me through the event. I like the tears just started flowing because I knew that she was so right. And it's like everything changed after that. The next week I told my boss about the book. I told my team about the book. I started to interview on podcasts and to, you know, just come forward in any way possible as the real me. And and that it was so empowering to be able to do that. I was like, wow. I I could just actually continue and move forward as one person. How cool is that? Be myself and be proud and not be ashamed of my story. So yeah, that's that's amazing. speaker-1: That's that that's amazing because I I get the feeling sometimes that there's perhaps a lot of people that are in a situation like the one that you were at that kind of have like almost these two different lives, you know, where they're living this official, you know, corporate life, you know, corporate persona, whatever, and then they have, you know, something something different about them on the side. You know, they might be an author, they might be a writer or a painter, you know, they might be going through some things that are really, really tough, right? And and and things that they don't necessarily share in a work setting, but that are, you know, very much a part of who they are. Right. And so you went through this, I mean, when when I was like, you know, after our our first call a couple of months ago, when I was listening to you talk and you told me that, you know, you'd gotten this diagnosis and you'd been divorced in this like in the same year. Mm-hmm. That's just that's just crazy. I mean, like either one of those is bad enough. Right. Like people end up being train wrecks just going through either one of those situations and and you had to go through both. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. What what was what was happening inside you that year? Like what what were you what were you feeling? What were you going through? speaker-0: Yeah, that's a good question. I think there were there were there were times where, you know, like s sleep was difficult, you know, because like race I had so many racing thoughts. And I still had to figure out I had a small I had a young child, he was like five, right? And so I had to show up for my my my child. And I think one of the the most difficult parts beyond the sleepless nights is I I was I had to wear the armor, the mask when I came into work. Sure. I couldn't be a train wreck and be doing what I was doing. And you know, my my d in my role, I'm highly visible. Yeah. People count on me, you know, to be to provide counsel, to, you know, create policies, but also enforce like I mean, so many different things, rings and repeat, you know, to be their coach or their supporter if they're on my team or elsewhere in the organization. And so literally that was heavy, you know, is is is N not it's it's like I couldn't be like I couldn't I couldn't bring all of that in and be my authentic self. And so I had to like literally hold it together, put on the game face, and and that and that made me feel like sometimes even physically ill. Like this isn't feel like yeah, I was feel I was physically ill for other reasons, but that made me ill. That was that was that was it was almost too much. So when I tell you that like this this journey of speaker-1: Yeah, I can imagine. speaker-0: like finding me and you know, merging the two identities that that has been so freeing. Like I I mean, like, I don't even know how else to explain it, but it's been so freeing. And it's actually caused me to speak a a lot, as I was mentioning, but y about how that connects to the ways that leaders can be authentic and ought to be, and how impactful it can be. And it and and you know, leadership authenticity does not have to happen exactly the way that I'm describing it. For me, that's what has been a difference maker. And and literally I I have if I could like zoom out and observe myself, I have seen a shift in how I lead. speaker-1: Interesting. Interesting. Wha what what what do you mean by that? When you say you've seen a shift on how you lead teles speaker-0: More. Yeah. It's like the the level of the way that I can have conver the way that I do now have conversations with peers, with leaders across the organization, with my boss, whatever, there's like a a different level of like confidence. There's a different level of like I don't have to put on a game face or or pretend like I'm just speaking naturally as the whole me. And I I get in res in return, I I get I've been getting like a different response from from folks. It's like it's like there's like a different level of trust that's engendered. Me being able to be vulnerable and to and to show old parts of me has I I think, you know, increased the confidence others have in me and and the trust that they have in me. And maybe they're more willing to share something about themselves. Or, you know, or just the the I the what I imagine is. They're like, wow, she's a real person. She bleeds red. You know what I mean? That's pretty cool. Like maybe I can talk to her. She's not like this robot, you know? So yeah, it that's that's been pretty powerful too. And it actually is the basis of the book I'm working on now. My next book. Okay. speaker-1: You're working on a second book, huh? Very that's very cool. And and Nicole, you know, I think if you had to go back and give yourself some advice, because the suspicion I have, you know, particularly in this country, I think a lot of people are cautious and wary about bringing personal things to the workplace, right? Whether it's an illness, a death in the family, financial issues, problems with loved ones, you know, addictions, whatever. I think a lot of people hide this stuff. It sounds like your life and as you said, the way you lead change significantly. after people really got to see the real you, right? And and people started treating you differently and they started coming to you with different things and it opened up maybe a different level of relationships with people. What advice would you give a person that's like on the fence there, that is struggling with whatever personal challenge they may have and whether they are wondering, should I really bring this to work? Should I should should I let people know? What what advice would you give that person? speaker-0: First of all, give yourself a lot of grace because I one thing I want to be really clear on. Some people have asked me if I'm gonna republish the first book under my name. And I said no. And why? Because it is that I publish it under a pseudonym is a real part of my story. And I know that I did it that way because that is what's felt safe for me then. That's what that's what I needed to do. And when the time was right. Right. And and and and and that moment at the book festival or whatever it is, I was able to go further, right? To to say this is who I am. And then, you know, slowly but surely, now it's been to two about two years, n you know, I I, you know, gradually shared a little bit more and a little bit more. Right. It wasn't all at once. And I think that's okay because it was an internal process, emotional process even. that was happening at every step along the way. So I think it happened exactly the way that it needed to. And I also think that the ten years ago or fifteen years ago, I've been with my organization for over twenty years. I don't think I would have been in in in a position to feel comfortable at all doing it, maybe even writing the book. You maybe even putting my story down, like, you know, y you know, in a book. And so I think that's okay too. You know, I think everyb everyone that maybe, you know, is listening will be listening to this is at different parts of their own journeys. Yeah. In life, maybe, you know, d there's a certain certain aspect of what I'm describing that may resonate for leaders, maybe not for individual contributors or vice versa, or what have you, and that's okay. Everybody's story and how they show up and and how they make progress with showing up has to be theirs. You know, if someone would have pushed me to like, yes, definitely publish, you know, with Nicole Dubas with your real name. That would have it that might have prevented me from publishing the book at all. And in fact, so I have a colleague, Sunit Bat, who is a professor at Rutgers, who just published a book. It's called ⁓ Making Sense of Purpose. And he featured 15 people and I'm one of them. And I'm in chapter fifteen and he describes this exact thing. The chapter's called Footholds. It's he j he describes this exact, you know, this exact experience that I had fr of coming from behind the suit again. So speaker-1: That's that's super interesting. And you know, I think one of the things I don't think people fully understand is like the resilience that it takes to live with a condition like the condition that you have, right? You know, the little that I understand about, you know, multiple sclerosis is is that it's it's it's something that you have to manage, right? It's like as far as I understand, once you have it, you you live with it and you just have to manage it day by day. There's there's currently no cure, right? So so speaker-0: Sure. speaker-1: What what has living with something like that and managing something like that taught you ⁓ that that perhaps having a crisis that ends, right? I mean, a marriage ends, right? Oftentimes when we get sick, there is an ending to that. In this case, there was no end. How what have you learned from this? speaker-0: Yeah. Well, just on s ⁓ maybe more than one thing. ⁓ I'm sh well, actually I'm sure more than one thing. One is that MS is, you know, there are different expressions of MS. You know, there's progressive forms, more progressive than what I have. I have what's called relapsing remitting. And so I have had periods of relapses and remission. And, you know, there was a moment that felt more like a a like a imminent crisis and there have been times like that. I've been hospitalized for treatment. in in those moments. I have gotten to a point where I have an excellent disease modifying drug that and and so I have that by infusion every six months. And so I've been very stable for the past several years. It has taught me about resilience. It has to I remember initially when I w initially was going through this, I actually went through a ⁓ going through finding out about the diagnosis and so on. I actually went through a to a support group. I thought it was going to be a support national Multiple schools, society has local chapters. And so I remember going to my first support group meeting. ⁓ this is gonna be, you know, the thing. I'll I'll be with, you know, folks, you know, that are similarly situated and, you know, we'll process together and all that. I was almost horrified, but it was me, just because there were all varieties of expressions of MS in the room. There were people my age or younger, I was in my mid thirties, my age or younger, that were immobile. That were wheelchair bound, that were, you know, only mobile with walkers, that were on permanent disability, that y all these different things. And of course, not every expression of MS is that way. But I literally wanted to ball out the room, you know, when because I was like, is that my future? You know. And I, you know, I I think I give myself some credit because one of the things I probably learned was facing fear. I because I didn't know what to expect and I kinda, you know, leaned in anyway. But I also you know, was was almost hor horrified. It was it was scary because I I I literally looked inward and and wanted to know what what was in my future. And but it but resilience and also I had to k or I felt like I had to keep it close to the vests. Even like my kid was only s five, six years old when I officially was diagnosed, he never knew 'cause I wouldn't have told a five, six year old. Like I don't even he would probably wouldn't been able to understand. He just knew that sometimes I was at home. Right what like in moments when I had hospital when I was in the hospital. Right. And and so I remember him, he's now a teenager and I remember it was about three years ago we were at a one of his d pediatric appointments and they were asking about family history and I shared. And he was like, Wow. So I I also learned that I have the ability to, you know, keep things to myself when I need to, but also, you know, when it's when it When I you know, that I I learned enough about myself to know when it's safe enough and when it's appropriate to to share, including with my own child. So yeah, those are some of the things. speaker-1: What what do you think people get wrong about resilience? Mm-hmm. speaker-0: I think resilience does not that you have to walk around like I did, 'cause you know, I I I don't get all right all the time wearing a mask. Being resilient does not mean you have to like be perfect to the rest of the world. It doesn't mean that you know, I thought it meant that. You know, y I I I thought I have to keep it together. I have to be, you know, polished and professional and you know, all of this this I mean I had to be professional. But if I wanted my job. But it but but but I didn't I d you know, I I think I I I l I learned and I I know now that that was heavy. That was hard to carry and that wasn't necessary. I c both could have been true. I could have been resilient and, you know, not carry that armor, you know, the way that I was. So and and with y but being resilient, it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to be vulnerable. You're still extremely strong. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: We are still extremely strong even if we need someone to be in our corner with us. I th and so, you know, those are ⁓ some of the the insights that I have about resilience. speaker-1: That's fascinating. That's fascinating. I think I think one one point that another guest ⁓ on the show made to me at one point was that we forget that when we ask for help, we also make the person helping us feel good about themselves right in the process. Right. Because oftentimes people people like to feel needed. They they they feel they might feel important when we ask them for help when we don't know how to do something. And speaker-0: That's true. Like my mother I'm in my mid forties, my mother s accompanies me every six months when I go for my infusion. It's a four or five hour long process. It actually got reduced. It used to be six more than six hours. But she comes every six months, you know? And so ⁓ I wouldn't ordinarily have asked her for that or whatever it is, but I'm resilient, but it's cool kinda cool that my mom makes the time to sit with her her big baby, I guess. speaker-1: wanted to you know, I th yeah, I think that that's, you know, remarkable that that she's there for that and and obviously, you know, having family close by ⁓ means means the world, right? When we're when we're struggling. I think we often forget and I think we take for granted the family that we have sometimes. So, you know, the fact that she's there for you is I'm sure incredibly comforting and helpful too. I wanted to switch a tracks for a second because you know one one of the things I I noticed about your career which which is interesting and it's un it's it's unusual. speaker-0: I am unusual. speaker-1: You are unusual, for sure. No doubt about that. Make no mistake. Make no mistake, Michael. ⁓ but you know, you spent twenty years in an organization. Right? That that's that's a long speaker-0: I tell everybody it's 'cause I started when I was five. speaker-1: You gotta start somewhere. You are never too young to get out of the workforce. Yeah, that's one way to get experience. But y you know, when you when you spend that much time in an organization, you know, especially when you talk to young people today, ⁓ you know, people don't see themselves more than a couple of years in a company. You know, a lot of a lot of Gen Zs are jumping around, you know, literally within six months or a year. A lot of people are freelancing, you know, the the world's changing, right? And ⁓ I was just curious. How do you keep redefining and changing or your your your role and you keep growing when you stay inside the same organization for so long? speaker-0: That because that's not an automatic. You know, it really isn't, you know, and I am someone who is very curious. I am a, you know, sort of avid learner. You know, I never thought, I mean, I don't know how many of us did think, but 10 years ago, five years ago, maybe even three years ago, I didn't think that I would be so immersed or or at least AI curious. Right before I hopped on this. I was in a session because I I actually am a part of a cohort of HR and people leaders that are learning to build our own I AI agent. That was those weren't even words available to me, you know, a year ago. Right? That's awesome. And so a part of it is y I love networking. I love, you know, connecting lifting my head up and connecting outside with y people that work in my sector, outside of my sector. I was at you know speaker-1: Very cool. speaker-0: a conference that I was a panelist for in June that was in London, June of this year, and it was about y ⁓ AI adoption and workforce, right? And so networking, you know, across the pond. And so that's one of the ways that I keep fresh because I there's sharing of ideas, you know, there's an exchange of thought leadership. And that like fuels me. And so th there is a like a shedding and a reinventing and, you know, in keeping what makes sense, but adopting what, you know, is is right for the time right now, you know, I even just gave my team's name a refresh. I renamed the team. I restructured the team because what I'm building towards in partnership with the team and others in the organization is a future ready workplace. And so I'm not I don't just have my mind on, you know, what what's a priority in twenty twenty six. I'm thinking twenty twenty nine. I'm thinking beyond that. So that's how I go about it. And so and I highly recommend, you know, stay curious. Stay curious. And you know, w w one of my team members actually, she said that her approach is she doesn't let twelve months go by without trying one new thing. speaker-1: I think it's I think that's great. I think that that is the only way to live. I mean it's I love that you said that because ⁓ you know, in a world where everything is changing constantly, the risk if you're not curious is that you just you just get left behind. That's right. Right. And ⁓ that was another question that I wanted to ask you is you know, I I I travel a lot and you know, I I speak on stages and I talk to organizations all over the world. I think I did like six countries in the last two weeks or something. Cra yeah, that's crazy. I mean it's like and I'm not doing your grease thing, I w trust you other speaker-0: did Europe three times since January and I thought I was on to something. speaker-1: Yeah, no, last couple of weeks has been intense. But but everywhere I go, Nicole, I hear the same thing and the same complaints from leaders. And it is that basically they they feel that a lot of parts of the organization are not adopting AI tools quickly enough. And the irony is that oftentimes they say that it's among the younger employees, which is totally counterintuitive to me because I would think that. Guys like me with gray hair or white hair or no hair, whatever you want, you know, that we struggle more to adopt new things, right? Definitely, you know, the the prevailing opinion is that as people get older, you know, our habits become more more entrenched, ⁓ we're less willing to try new things. And and the data seems to be indicating differently. And I'm wondering, what are you seeing as a people leader? What are you seeing? And and what do you do to get people comfortable about adopting? speaker-0: What are speaker-1: New ways of working, new technologies, new processes. speaker-0: Yep. That is so funny because it was so counterintuitive to me too. I'm like, ⁓ how am I like the loudest mouth in the in the rooms about AI adoption? I you know. But you know, I at least from my experience, a part of it is a part of it, and this might be the whole thing. Yeah. There there's a lot of fear and anxiety about what's unknown. And some of that is ex i exactly right and I understand. It's like, what is AI going to mean for the environment, for water supply? You know, there's an ethical dilemma that comes up. So there's that group. There's also the group and, you know, that are literally worried that if we get we go too far you know, ahead with AI adoption, their jobs are in jeopardy. Yep. And and so I guess that helped me to reconcile y you know, this thing about the The generation I thought was going to be more adverse to you know, versus but what we've what we've been doing, and so ⁓ you know, I've been involved in the work of leading our responsible AI adoption journey at my organization. And so what we've been doing is not sweeping under the rug real feelings, right? So having it creating spaces for discussion, all the discussion, all aspects, all angles, not shoving AI down someone's throat. Let's talk about it. What are the fears? What are the worries? Along with let's learn together. Right? And so upcoming, you know, in the next few weeks, we have a prompt writing, you know, ⁓ course as a part of a 12 month learning journey that I've curated, right? And so it's it's it let's learn together. And the third thing is let me help me help me to help you, but let me show you exactly how this tool or that tool or Automating that process can make your life easier. It isn't about replacing your job. It's about, you know, adding a resource to hopefully make make your the way that you approach your work easier. And so are we all the way there? No. But I see people joining. We have actual an an internal steering committee focused on all things AI, but I see more people joining, more people becoming AI curious, willing to participate in pilots when they can see. What is this gonna mean for me? How is this going to help me? Right. speaker-1: Yeah. So it sounds like you're saying on the one hand, learn these tools and learn them together, right? When you're doing these prompt writing classes or courses, this is something that you are a part of as a along with the rest of the team. ⁓ it sounds like it's a question of kind of encouraging people to do small experiments. How do you how do you how do you one one of the things that I see, and I see this particularly in Latin America, but it this is kind of a global thing, is you know, people struggle sometimes with failure. Right. It's like the our our our oftentimes our biggest human need is to be significant. It's to feel special. It's to feel acknowledged. Right. It's and and some people, you know, more particularly in certain cultures than others, more particularly I think among men than women, right? At the risk of being slightly sexist against myself. We we we struggle a little bit more with us, right? It it's it's like, you know, it it it's harder for us to admit that we make a mistake, it's harder for us to start something realizing that, you know, maybe it's not gonna work out and we're gonna fail on our first couple of tries. And you know, when I've used AI, I mean, I was writing a keynote for a you know, ⁓ for for a client that I have to give in two weeks from now in Panama and I found that like a bunch of the research that I was looking at the numbers going into the keynote and I was like, This does not feel this feels off. These numbers don't feel right. And I was like, go back to I like, Claude, double check these numbers. Are you sure these numbers are from Latin America? And it's like, ⁓ no, guess what? You know, I just realized they were from the US. I'm like, I'm like, gee, man, thanks. Exactly. like ⁓ Give me a break, Claude, you know. So so how do you get people to feel comfortable with failure or or with the possibility that they're gonna fail? What what tips or tricks have worked for you, you know, in the organization managing that and prepping people to realize that, hey, maybe it doesn't work out the first couple of times you try it. speaker-0: share that, you know, I'm not immune to failure. That I make mistakes. You know, and the key is learning from my mistakes. I mean, just yesterday I was I'd like to think of myself as a multitasker. I don't think someone told me once and maybe they were right, multitasking is not really a thing our brains can do, but I try I give it a go. I have speaker-1: I think we all do. I have speaker-0: Multiple screens and so I'm you know looking at multiple screens and I'm having a conversation and I'm s having you know responding to an email at the same time and literally because of a conversation I was having and a name that I mentioned, I literally typed the name not the wrong name in in the email. Not the name it was a name that I was that the right was a ⁓ a part of the conversation that I was having on the phone. Right. And I actually went as far as to press send. And I have to go back behind myself to say, ⁓ my gosh, no, I meant, you know, this name with an asterisk, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I catch my mistakes, but I do make mistakes. I am human. Like I said, I bleed red. And I think especially because of the the role that I have and you know, being a member of the senior executive leadership team, modeling that, that it's okay to even admit that I make mistakes is something that hopefully helps others to know that, you know, making a mistake. Failing is not the end of the world. It's, you know, what can I take away from this? Y you know, y I I like to think of the the idea of like everything has to have a meaning, right? So failure is is okay, but w do you learn from the failure? Right. You know, what and what is what is the lesson that you can, you know, take away? Yeah. speaker-1: You know, it's interesting. When I was at Google, you know, one of the things that we had was we used OKRs, right? We used object speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, we have we have O we're not Google, but we use OKRs. Thank God. Yep. Even a non profit, we use OKRs. speaker-1: I think I th I think I th I think that's awesome. And so I think, you know, may maybe, you know, coming from somebody who uses as well in your organization and as a nonprofit, I think it's amazing that you guys use OKRs. What what what has the OKR process taught you about, you know, how to surface failure and discuss it in a way that's non threatening for people, right? Because if you look at the the process, OKR is a framework that people use to set goals, but also part of the cycle is reviewing failure. How how do you guys do it in in your organization? And how much does that help people come to grips with the fact that, hey, failure's part of the journey and we're all gonna go through it? speaker-0: Hm, that is that is good. So we do have an annual performance feedback process. Mm-hmm. And so which is which is great. But I was just actually facilitating a webinar earlier today on employee relations. And I was using this example that is a real example. A few years ago we had significant grade inflation. Yeah, when we were looking at our performance reviews. Like we're talking about like eighty percent of reviews were r at the top two levels at in a f five point rating sc scale, right? Out of a f five point rating scale. And the reason is that a lot of our one of the reasons is a lot of our leaders were challenged by having difficult conversations about things like that. That wasn't the only reason. It also was there was a monetary component and you know, because we're a nonprofit and we can't do what we loved to be able to do in salaries. there was sort of like a motivation to try to get some, you know, ⁓ a monetary award in the hands of staff. So we we we we have to take a fresh look at that and and we revamped the entire thing, moved to a three point rating scale, instituted a process where it's not just a conversation at the end of the year. It really, you know, should be folk it based off of a continuous feedback with weekly conversations, you know, setting goals, then having the conversation about how D did things go according to the goals? Maybe adjusting the goals a as they need to be adjusted. I think that's one of the things that's key is that, you know, continuity in communication. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, I I I think you're absolutely right. I mean, OKRs definitely forces people to communicate and give feedback more often. Right. That that's just part of the cycle. You know, and it also forces us to be very public about the goals that we have. So there's greater accountability. There there's, you know, there's a whole book on this, obviously, Measure What Matters, you know, by John Doerr, which I always recommend to people who are interested in learning more about OKRs. One of the things that you mentioned to me, which I thought was interesting in our pre prior conversation, was around the pilots that you're running using AI as a recruitment tool. speaker-0: Uh-huh. speaker-1: And I was curious now that a couple of months have gone by, what did you see or learn from that experiment? Maybe that you didn't speaker-0: Yeah. So an example of what we were piloting was an AI recruiter to conduct screening interviews, not to make a decision, to produce a written transcript or audio transcript. The human is in the loop reviewing the you know, the responses and the conversation. And I would say and then I also like LinkedIn has some great, you know, AI features. So recently I actually Test it out using the the the AI features in LinkedIn to do screening interviews, their video interviews and and they're conversational with candidates, which is cool. What I didn't expect is that I that's the agent that I'm working on building. Is that I I made a decision. Well I made all these pilots, I'm gonna go at it. I'm gonna build my own agent and you know, make it tailor it, custom customize it to the organization. Wish me luck. But so I didn't speaker-1: I w I absolutely wish you luck. I think that's awesome. speaker-0: Thank you. Yeah, I thought I was gonna pile it and then maybe think about purchasing someone else's tool, but I said, Why not try to if I'm gonna be you know going through this cohort anyway, why not try to build my own? speaker-1: It's fascinating. I mean, you know, it it it leads me a little bit to this other question, which is, you know, in an in an era of artificial intelligence, right, with all the changes that are happening and and you know, the ability that this this technology now gives us, you know, in your role as a as a people leader, right? What what does AI change in terms of your leadership of the leader of the people function? How how how does AI change what it means to lead people? I guess is the question I'm asking. speaker-0: I think in some ways we're still discovering that. But like literally, when I think about my own role and team, I mentioned that I just renamed the team, but it's not just about the rename. The name matches like our function. Our function has shifted and and is in alignment with this future ready, you know, sort of vision that that I w referred to earlier. I created a team in the past few months that is focused on people analytics, systems, and automation. A year ago I would never have thought about that. And you know, and so it is a re engineering of the way that work happens in in the team in support of this the mission of this organization and in support of the workforce. Because we're, you know, more readily able to ingest and and and understand data that informs our practice. You know, my leader that is leading that work in people ⁓ analytics systems and automation has already found opportunities. for automating some of our workflows s and and doing so has been saving time for some of the humans on the team. You know, and I think there's different levels to this. I think, you know, again, we're in, you know, we're on a journey, you know, it's a it's a a marathon, not a r not a a a race or what have you. And, you know, I think more will be discovered about that. There was a session that one of my team members participated in that where where they laid out sort of an org chart and it's like human and agents. I I think that's gonna be more like what my org chart looks like, you know, in a couple of years. I really do. It's like, you know, what functions ought ought people continue to to to do and perform directly as humans? And what are we doing as humans that we really don't have to do? You know what I mean? And so That's what I imagine is I imagine a a not any longer human only order. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, I know. I mean ⁓ at some point we're gonna have, you know, agents in our org charts. speaker-0: Right. That's exactly right. I don't think I'm going to go as far as to like onboard like a humanoid. That's a little crazy. That's pretty speaker-1: Yeah, that would that would be really weird. speaker-0: But Agent and my some agents and the art chart for sure. speaker-1: Sure. I I hear you. Before we get to our last kind of final lightning round of questions, I think the last question really I have for you is ⁓ what's what's the hardest part of this job that you have that nobody on nobody really kind of outside the organization can understand or appreciate? speaker-0: That a lot of what I lead has nothing to do with with what is on my job description. I was discr and what I mean by that is, you know, I was talking to a c maybe a couple of colleagues just recently about the burden of sound judgment, the burden of instinct, sound instincts. That's the stuff that's way that's like buried between the bullets of the role description. It's like I can see you know, maybe a pattern of things or something that's happened and I'm like, Yep, we better we we we better do something about that. It's gonna l it's gonna snowball. And I can but i it that's a gut thing, right? I can't really learn that in a book or or right. And and it's hard to like spell that out in in a role description. And so that's the part that is hard I would imagine hard for others to say. speaker-1: I you know, I agree with you a hundred percent. I think that's the part where one of the things that I've been hearing a lot on different podcasts and talking to different guests is the risk of us outsourcing our judgment to AI. And the risk, especially for people like you and I who are more experienced and you know, you earn the gray hair, right? Right right, right. You earn the gut feeling. The gut feeling comes from experience. That's right. It's not like this random thing. ⁓ so I'm glad you I I'm glad you said that because You know, I was at a I was at the volcano summit a few weeks ago. A good buddy of mine, who's a r researcher at MIT, gave a very interesting talk on what he calls the cognitive impairment that's happening due to AI. And and it's frightening. I mean, you can see the the the scans of people's brains, you know, when they are using some of these tools to to do work and are literally, you know, abandoning thinking as a process. All right. So there is a there's a very real risk here. Nicole, this has been an amazing conversation. Is there anything that you wish I Yeah. speaker-0: so much in this conversation. It this is so this was so great. No, I I think I think this was yeah it it got it I said to somebody just recently ⁓ maybe more than one I I have so many conversations, right? Maybe I was talking to an agent. I don't know. But it's like man, if someone could like actually peek into my brain, they'd probably be like I don't know. It probably would drive them insane because there's just so much that goes in my head. My boss said at one point, but yeah, but I bet it's all neatly filed. Right? speaker-1: I open up your brain and it's like very neatly comfortable. speaker-0: immediately filed app apparently so this conversation like honestly I think got at all like a bunch of the different things in in my files. So thank you so speaker-1: Much that's amazing. No, thank you. Thank you. So we finish off the show. We have our lightning round of questions, Nicole. It's three quick questions, three quick answers, and then kind of we roll out of here. But ⁓ question number one for you if you could have one superpower, what would you choose? Very cool. That's a great one. I've never heard that one before. I love that. It's awesome. Question number two if you could have anyone, if you could have dinner with anyone in history, alive or dead, who would you choose? speaker-0: See my kids' future. speaker-1: Very cool. Yeah. She's she she's she's come out before. She's a remarkable, remarkable woman. And last but not least, if you could give one piece of advice to a young person, maybe at the beginning of their career, looking for a career of meaning and purpose, what would you tell them? speaker-0: You don't have to figure it all out at once. It's okay. I had a nonlinear journey. It it is okay. It will all sort itself out. speaker-1: It will all sort itself out. ⁓ Nicole, thank you so much. This has been an amazing conversation. There's been so many different angles that we covered. I wish I had like another hour with you. It's only good. Now I understand why like some of my favorite podcasts like two or three hours long. So so so thank you so much. There's a number of things that really stay with me in this conversation. I think one of the things that stays with me is, you know, something you said at the beginning with your story with your book is, you know, the important thing is to really speaker-0: I know, I know. speaker-1: decide to be one person. Yeah. You know, decide to decide to be you. Don't pretend, you know, share when you need to, you know, among your coworkers. I think I think vulnerability is a strength according to you. And it's it's changed how you lead. It's changed how you how you see the world. And and I think that's special. And I have no doubt that your work and your book have really impacted a lot of people. I'm excited to see what you what you do with the next book. So you know whenever you have it, when you have a first draft speaker-0: That's why speaker-1: If you want a review or some commentary, ⁓ let me know. Sure, for sure. You know, and and and I'll get your address afterwards because I'd love to send you a copy of my book as well. I think I think you'd you'd enjoy it. And for everybody listening, you know, if if if this episode landed, if you feel that you were able to take away something that was useful, something that was surprising, something that was helpful, something that was funny, whatever it means for you, please make sure to ⁓ subscribe, likes, ⁓ you know. speaker-0: For sure. That would be great. speaker-1: Keep in touch with us on the channel, drop us a comment, share this episode with somebody who might benefit from from ⁓ Nicole's journey and wisdom. And for everybody else, thank you for tuning in. This has been another amazing episode of Mork Unfiltered, and we will see you on the next one. Thanks again, Nicole. speaker-0: Thank you so much.