Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / Is Your Partner’s Job Replacing You? The Hidden Cost of a Career That Comes First | Love | E564

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Is Your Partner’s Job Replacing You? The Hidden Cost of a Career That Comes First | Love | E564 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

0:03
Speaker 1: Why would I set a boundary with work when work
0:05
Speaker 1: actually feels good to me? Why would I protect time
0:08
Speaker 1: with my family when that doesn't always feel good?
0:22
Speaker 2: Being an ambitious person with a big career is a
0:25
Speaker 2: beautiful thing. You're out there killing it and that's all good. Until...
0:30
Speaker 2: your professional goals start to take a toll on your
0:34
Speaker 2: personal life, your health, sometimes your mental health, and sometimes
0:38
Speaker 2: your relationship is the canary in the coal mine.
0:49
Speaker 1: I mean, trapped is a really good word because they
0:50
Speaker 1: get really good at their jobs professionally and they begin
0:53
Speaker 1: to feel less and less confident. and capable and able
0:57
Speaker 1: in their personal lives. And so then they double down
1:00
Speaker 1: on their professional work because that's what feels best for them.
1:03
Speaker 1: And it creates this loop that no one can kind
1:06
Speaker 1: of get out of.
1:07
Speaker 2: On this episode of Love, Happiness, and Success, we're sitting
1:10
Speaker 2: down with a therapist and relationship expert to talk about
1:15
Speaker 2: how to find some balance and create wins in every
1:19
Speaker 2: area of your life and also have a career that
1:23
Speaker 2: knocks it out of the park. If this is your
1:34
Speaker 2: first time listening, I'm so glad you're here. I am Dr.
1:36
Speaker 2: Lisa Marie Bobby. This is Love, Happiness, and Success, and
1:39
Speaker 2: we're here every week to talk about you and your goals,
1:43
Speaker 2: your growth, your life satisfaction, your love, and yes, your career.
1:49
Speaker 2: And so thanks for tuning in. And also thank you
1:51
Speaker 2: for liking and subscribing and sharing these episodes with friends
1:56
Speaker 2: and family who you think could also benefit from hearing
2:00
Speaker 2: about the things you're learning about every week. And with
2:02
Speaker 2: me today is my friend and colleague, Silas Hendrick, who
2:06
Speaker 2: is a licensed marriage and family therapist like me, who
2:10
Speaker 2: also deploys all kinds of coaching competencies to move from
2:15
Speaker 2: insight into action and into outcomes. And Silas, welcome.
2:20
Speaker 1: Hi, Lisa. Thanks for having me. It's exciting to talk
2:22
Speaker 1: about this topic. It is.
2:23
Speaker 2: Well, and I'm just excited to get a chance to
2:25
Speaker 2: visit with you because you are so much fun. You
2:27
Speaker 2: are one of my favorite people. And so I love
2:30
Speaker 2: having this time together, but also to get your insight
2:34
Speaker 2: into this specific situation, because I know you work with
2:38
Speaker 2: so many people who are navigating big careers, relationships. You
2:44
Speaker 2: see the mayhem that it could cause. And also, you know,
2:48
Speaker 2: you have some of this going on personally. It's a
2:51
Speaker 2: personal experience as well, which I think gives your work
2:53
Speaker 2: so much depth. And we can even start there. Sure.
2:56
Speaker 1: I'd love to talk about that. Yeah, it is something
2:58
Speaker 1: that I do with not only professionally, but on a
3:01
Speaker 1: personal level. My fiance now is a emergency medicine doctor
3:06
Speaker 1: who is currently in her fourth year of residency. And
3:08
Speaker 1: we've been together from medical school through all the match
3:12
Speaker 1: day shenanigans that happens with doctors to her matching residency
3:16
Speaker 1: and starting residency and on a journey now with her
3:19
Speaker 1: through residency kind of on the side and trying to
3:22
Speaker 1: be a helpful and supportive partner to someone whose career
3:26
Speaker 1: is all encompassing and has been all encompassing for the
3:29
Speaker 1: entire time that we've been together. And we're sort of,
3:33
Speaker 1: we're on the edge of the promised land, which is
3:37
Speaker 1: when they become, when they graduate residency and they get
3:39
Speaker 1: a full-time job that, you know, pays them appropriately and
3:42
Speaker 1: they get a little bit more time and can set
3:44
Speaker 1: different boundaries with work. But it's been a journey.
3:48
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Well, I have to tell you, like you told
3:51
Speaker 2: me stories about your partner sometime. I've never had the
3:53
Speaker 2: privilege of meeting her yet, but I have such a
3:55
Speaker 2: girl crush on her. She sounds like she's just a
3:58
Speaker 2: monster with what she's doing and, you know, the things
4:01
Speaker 2: that she's done, but also like how intense it is
4:05
Speaker 2: and that you are like, I know it's so supportive
4:08
Speaker 2: and helpful and like trying to be there for her. But,
4:12
Speaker 2: and I think that's probably some of that going on
4:14
Speaker 2: in my relationship. I'm much more careerist than my husband is, right?
4:17
Speaker 2: And like, what does that do to the space in
4:19
Speaker 2: between you? When one person is spending, you know, 90%
4:23
Speaker 2: of their time and energy, like trying to make things
4:26
Speaker 2: happen in their career. And the other person was like,
4:29
Speaker 2: we got to lunch sometime. I haven't talked to you
4:31
Speaker 2: in like three weeks. I mean, you know. And you
4:34
Speaker 2: work with that a lot with your clients, too. I mean,
4:37
Speaker 2: what are some of the things that you see from
4:39
Speaker 2: people coming in the door who are like, we need
4:42
Speaker 2: to talk to somebody who maybe have been doing that
4:44
Speaker 2: for a while and the toll that.
4:46
Speaker 1: It starts to take? Yeah, there's a number of huge commonalities.
4:50
Speaker 1: And I see it in entrepreneurs, kind of like you, Lisa,
4:52
Speaker 1: who have started new businesses, lawyers, doctors, higher-end business professionals, right?
4:59
Speaker 1: Those kinds of careers that just inherently demands a lot
5:03
Speaker 1: from the individuals taking part in them. Um, and those
5:06
Speaker 1: careers that also there's like a golden handcuffs kind of
5:09
Speaker 1: situation with the money aspect of it, but I think
5:12
Speaker 1: is this sort of, you know, elephant in the room
5:15
Speaker 1: for a lot of couples and a lot of relationships
5:17
Speaker 1: when they're struggling with how do we balance quality time
5:21
Speaker 1: together versus family, kids, and the fact that these jobs,
5:26
Speaker 1: It's really difficult to set boundaries with something that is
5:28
Speaker 1: providing so much in terms of financial support that enables
5:31
Speaker 1: lifestyles that wouldn't be possible without it. And couples get
5:36
Speaker 1: caught in this, we don't really know how to talk
5:38
Speaker 1: about it kind of situation because it doesn't feel like
5:42
Speaker 1: we can change anything. We feel powerless and we sort
5:45
Speaker 1: of just feel trapped. And it's almost like, you know,
5:49
Speaker 1: they get, do I just have to accept this is
5:50
Speaker 1: the way that it is? And there's just a number
5:52
Speaker 1: of like nefarious, like, systemic situational things can happen too
5:57
Speaker 1: right commonly with the person who's in the career um
6:02
Speaker 1: they spend so much time i mean they're spending 90
6:04
Speaker 1: of the time sometimes greater than that doing that thing
6:07
Speaker 1: and that's where they're getting a lot of like positive
6:10
Speaker 1: feedback and support for that and that's the thing that
6:13
Speaker 1: they're getting really good at right if we think about
6:16
Speaker 1: you know like Malcolm Gladwell's like 10,000 hours. They're putting 10,000
6:20
Speaker 1: hours in their career. They're not putting 10,000 hours in
6:23
Speaker 1: their relationships or their parenting or their familial relationships. And
6:28
Speaker 1: it becomes this trapped is a really good word because
6:31
Speaker 1: they get really good at their jobs professionally and they
6:34
Speaker 1: begin to feel less and less confident and capable and
6:37
Speaker 1: able in their personal lives. And so then they double
6:40
Speaker 1: down on their professional work because that's what feels best
6:43
Speaker 1: for them. And it creates this loop that no one
6:46
Speaker 1: can kind of get out of.
6:49
Speaker 2: Oh, so interesting. So you're saying that like a competence,
6:55
Speaker 2: positive feedback, doing a good job, the gold stars, the
6:58
Speaker 2: money is happening at work, which feels good. I'm going
7:02
Speaker 2: to do more of that. And at the less and
7:04
Speaker 2: less time that they spend in those other roles, they
7:08
Speaker 2: aren't as effective as parents or partners. And then there's
7:11
Speaker 2: like negative feedback and bad things are happening. So there's
7:14
Speaker 2: like working like I'm just I'm going to go back
7:16
Speaker 2: to work on a Saturday instead of like. Yeah.
7:19
Speaker 1: Why would I set a boundary with work?
7:20
Speaker 2: You're not the crappy person I am. Yeah.
7:21
Speaker 1: Why would I set a boundary with work when work
7:23
Speaker 1: actually feels good to me? Why would I protect time
7:26
Speaker 1: with my family when that doesn't always feel good?
7:30
Speaker 2: I just had a little, like, lightbulb moment. And other
7:33
Speaker 2: people listening to this are probably, like, so obvious. But
7:36
Speaker 2: I literally just had the connection that the careerist is
7:39
Speaker 2: really having a relationship with their job-slash-career. Mm-hmm. There's like
7:47
Speaker 2: an attachment to it. Yeah.
7:49
Speaker 1: In our technical language, we refer to this as a
7:51
Speaker 1: third in the relationship, right? That they have an attachment
7:55
Speaker 1: to this third entity that is taking away time, effort,
7:58
Speaker 1: emotional energy, and investment away from the primary relationships going
8:03
Speaker 1: on in that person's life.
8:06
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow. Okay, well, yeah. And so both for people
8:12
Speaker 2: who might be in that situation, who are listening to
8:16
Speaker 2: this podcast in seven-minute increments on multiple days, because that's
8:19
Speaker 2: like literally the only time you have. I hear you.
8:22
Speaker 2: Or somebody who's listening to this and being like, yeah,
8:24
Speaker 2: I haven't talked to my partner in like seven weeks.
8:28
Speaker 2: What starts to happen to people over time, both individually,
8:32
Speaker 2: but also as a couple when there's that third entity
8:37
Speaker 2: that's Maybe the silent partner. Silent but demanding.
8:41
Speaker 1: Silent but very demanding, right? And sometimes not so silent when,
8:46
Speaker 1: you know, a partner gets a phone call in the
8:47
Speaker 1: middle of the night that they have to address because
8:49
Speaker 1: they have to, because they don't have an option. It
8:53
Speaker 1: really goes both ways. So, no, no. And we're paying
8:57
Speaker 1: with broad strokes here. I mean, results vary depending on
9:02
Speaker 1: the actual job and the industry and all that kind
9:04
Speaker 1: of stuff.
9:04
Speaker 2: Okay. I know.
9:06
Speaker 1: And everyone hates that language too. When they come in,
9:09
Speaker 1: they're like, well, it depends. I don't know. Like your
9:12
Speaker 1: situation is inherently different. At the same time, there are
9:15
Speaker 1: commonalities with it. Namely, it's difficult. So we're having this
9:20
Speaker 1: conversation in two parts. One for the individual who's in
9:22
Speaker 1: that demanding career, right? And for the individual who is
9:26
Speaker 1: on the outside looking in to that career, right? One
9:30
Speaker 1: of the big issues is that And this is true
9:32
Speaker 1: for all couples, but it's kind of on steroids for
9:34
Speaker 1: couples in this situation where it's very hard for the
9:37
Speaker 1: outside partner to have a lot of empathy and a
9:38
Speaker 1: lot of understanding for what the career-driven individual's days are like, right?
9:43
Speaker 1: And so just on the outset, there's like an emotional
9:46
Speaker 1: empathy gap that is really difficult really to empathize with.
9:50
Speaker 1: Just to use it as a convenient example, like my life,
9:52
Speaker 1: my partner is an emergency medicine doctor. Her days are
9:56
Speaker 1: unfathomable for people who are not also a doctor. And
10:00
Speaker 1: even another doctor, like emergency medicine versus dermatologist is a
10:05
Speaker 1: great example, right? Or something like that. Like, even then,
10:08
Speaker 1: like it's, there's a huge empathy gap there in terms of,
10:10
Speaker 1: you know, the things that my partner is going through
10:12
Speaker 1: on a day-to-day basis. She has people die. She has
10:14
Speaker 1: to kind of wrap her head around, figure out whether
10:17
Speaker 1: or not she made a mistake, or, you know, is
10:18
Speaker 1: dealing with difficult stuff. She's working with the homeless population
10:21
Speaker 1: very regularly, coming in for medical care, right? And as
10:25
Speaker 1: much as I can understand the words that she is
10:27
Speaker 1: communicating to me, the emotional depth of it is not
10:30
Speaker 1: something that I can access very well. Right?
10:33
Speaker 2: I have to say, though, and this is coming from you,
10:38
Speaker 2: and I happen to know you, and I know... that
10:42
Speaker 2: you are a natural empath on the spectrum of empathic
10:48
Speaker 2: and like mind sight. You are so strong in that area.
10:53
Speaker 2: And for you to say, sometimes I just can't even
10:56
Speaker 2: wrap my head around it or it feels like there's
10:58
Speaker 2: this disconnect. You are so gifted in this area that
11:01
Speaker 2: I just want to emphasize then what a profound issue
11:06
Speaker 2: this probably is for many people who are in these
11:08
Speaker 2: types of relationships who might not have your natural abilities,
11:11
Speaker 2: I would say. Yeah. Seriously. Yeah.
11:13
Speaker 1: I mean, it is a massive advantage in our relationship
11:16
Speaker 1: that I am a therapist. We joke about that not
11:18
Speaker 1: infrequently because it's right there.
11:21
Speaker 2: Well, not all therapists are empathic. True.
11:25
Speaker 1: Naturally, my career is very beneficial to us maintaining a
11:29
Speaker 1: healthy emotional relationship and that I have a greater capacity
11:34
Speaker 1: to empathize with her. And, you know, I'm sure there
11:37
Speaker 1: are other couples out there where it's not a therapist
11:39
Speaker 1: partner who can do the same thing.
11:40
Speaker 2: Right.
11:41
Speaker 1: But by and large, like there is no matter how
11:43
Speaker 1: you slice it, there's a gap there.
11:46
Speaker 2: And then so before we leave, I'd love for you
11:48
Speaker 2: to teach us some of the things that you're doing to.
11:51
Speaker 2: make that empathy gap a little bit smaller because you're
11:54
Speaker 2: saying that this is one of the primary things that happens.
11:57
Speaker 2: So I was going to stick a flag in that
11:59
Speaker 2: and we'll come back to that towards the end of
12:01
Speaker 2: our time together. We'll have like, okay, here's what to do.
12:03
Speaker 2: So anyway, but you're saying there's this empathy gap and
12:06
Speaker 2: the person who's less like of a maniac sometimes really
12:09
Speaker 2: not understand what's going on.
12:10
Speaker 1: Really not understanding what's going on. And that's a really
12:12
Speaker 1: hard pill to swallow when that person has needs in
12:15
Speaker 1: the relationship that are going unmet.
12:17
Speaker 2: Right.
12:18
Speaker 1: Hey, I'd really love for you to be at an,
12:21
Speaker 1: home in time for dinner that I've really kind of
12:23
Speaker 1: worked hard to make for you to make sure that
12:25
Speaker 1: you're fueled and ready to go. Hey, can we spend
12:28
Speaker 1: some quality time together? I know that you have a
12:30
Speaker 1: lot of work to be doing and you have a
12:31
Speaker 1: lot of deadlines coming up, but like we haven't spent
12:34
Speaker 1: any quality time this week. Can I get an hour
12:36
Speaker 1: of your time this evening?
12:39
Speaker 2: Right.
12:39
Speaker 1: And that, that partner is on the other side of that.
12:42
Speaker 1: And here's hearing that thing of like, how do I
12:44
Speaker 1: fit this in? Like I have 50 things on my
12:46
Speaker 1: to-do list that I need to do. If I don't
12:48
Speaker 1: get these things done, X, Y, and Z consequences is
12:51
Speaker 1: going to happen. I'm going to get further behind and
12:53
Speaker 1: that's going to make the initial problem harder, right? It's like,
12:56
Speaker 1: it's not that I don't want to spend time with
12:58
Speaker 1: my partner. Like I don't want them to feel like
13:00
Speaker 1: that at all, but also my hands are tied because
13:04
Speaker 1: my problem and being stressed and my anxiety levels are
13:06
Speaker 1: only going to get worse if I don't spend all
13:08
Speaker 1: evening working and sit staring at my laptop for a
13:10
Speaker 1: period of time, right? And then, you know, you can
13:14
Speaker 1: get into really kind of problematic conflict cycles where the
13:17
Speaker 1: partner in this way is like, hey, I need you
13:19
Speaker 1: to do this.
13:20
Speaker 2: Right?
13:20
Speaker 1: I feel lonely. I feel like I miss you. And
13:23
Speaker 1: the other partner's like, I'm sorry, but, right, I have had,
13:27
Speaker 1: you know, I have X, Y, and Z things to
13:29
Speaker 1: do today. What do you expect me to do if
13:30
Speaker 1: I don't do this? People are, this is a little
13:33
Speaker 1: bit melodramatic, but people are going to die, right?
13:35
Speaker 2: Like, I mean, for your partner, that might actually be true.
13:38
Speaker 1: For her, it's a little bit more literal of like, hey,
13:39
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that I spent, you know, 12 hours today
13:42
Speaker 1: doing like three cardiac arrest cycles and intubations, and I
13:46
Speaker 1: still got to write all my notes and like this
13:48
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And It's the I'm sorry, buts that
13:51
Speaker 1: can get really problematic where like they know it. I
13:54
Speaker 1: know it. Everyone knows why the thing is happening, but
13:57
Speaker 1: that doesn't take away the fact that need is going unmet.
14:00
Speaker 2: Yeah.
14:01
Speaker 1: And, you know, if we don't, if both partners on
14:04
Speaker 1: either side of that don't handle that very well, you're
14:06
Speaker 1: basically just creating resentments that are on repeat.
14:09
Speaker 2: Right.
14:09
Speaker 1: You run into that same situation over and over again
14:13
Speaker 1: as the career is continuing to suck more and more
14:14
Speaker 1: time and space away from the relationship. And, you know,
14:18
Speaker 1: at the end of it, all that thing that that
14:20
Speaker 1: career driven person is working for in terms of financial
14:22
Speaker 1: gain and the lifestyle may not amount to anything because
14:25
Speaker 1: the relationship might be dead.
14:27
Speaker 2: Right.
14:27
Speaker 1: There may be no emotional warmth, empathy, compassion, closeness at
14:31
Speaker 1: the end of it. And you kind of have to
14:32
Speaker 1: look at one and be like, what was the point
14:34
Speaker 1: of this? Yeah.
14:36
Speaker 2: Right. Because that's one of the myths. Right. But I'm
14:40
Speaker 2: doing it for us. I'm doing it so that we'll
14:42
Speaker 2: have a better life and we can have all these
14:43
Speaker 2: nice things and all. Right. And that absolutely at the
14:47
Speaker 2: end of the day, like what it all crumbles around you.
14:51
Speaker 2: And I think that that's very common. I think especially
14:53
Speaker 2: for entrepreneurs, it's a known issue of thinking of, oh
14:58
Speaker 2: my God, some of the best brand marketing I've ever
15:01
Speaker 2: seen in my life. Have you ever seen a commercial
15:04
Speaker 2: for a Philippe Patek watch? They're like $ 100, 000 watches. And
15:07
Speaker 2: it's just like, Legacy and being with your family and
15:13
Speaker 2: giving your kid this watch and thinking like that's the
15:18
Speaker 2: devil's bargain that some entrepreneur is probably making. But I
15:21
Speaker 2: gave you a lot.
15:22
Speaker 1: And like, you know, I'm saying it for presenting as
15:25
Speaker 1: if like the career driven person is like 100% on
15:28
Speaker 1: board for like a family life and that kind of thing.
15:32
Speaker 1: that may not always be a 50% of it or
15:34
Speaker 1: 60% or 70%. It might be like, I actually really
15:36
Speaker 1: want the status that comes with all of this work
15:39
Speaker 1: and the family and the couple stuff isn't as high
15:42
Speaker 1: of a priority as I was saying. And like those
15:46
Speaker 1: dynamics are not always talked to or even realized when
15:48
Speaker 1: the relationship begins.
15:51
Speaker 2: Yeah. Ooh. Okay. So let's crack into that a little
15:55
Speaker 2: bit more. So you're saying that there's sometimes, You know,
15:59
Speaker 2: getting through graduate school, for example, when both people are like,
16:03
Speaker 2: we hate this. This is not ideal. Let's just get
16:06
Speaker 2: through it. But that is kind of a different thing
16:09
Speaker 2: when maybe one partner is actually has values that are
16:14
Speaker 2: attached to the status, the money, the also the maybe
16:19
Speaker 2: like the building or the developing or the being that person,
16:23
Speaker 2: whereas their partner really wants to have a different type
16:28
Speaker 2: of lifestyle. that the money or the status is really
16:31
Speaker 2: not as important to them. They want, they want to
16:34
Speaker 2: go as a family to the kids' soccer games, like
16:36
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. And that it's hard to get
16:39
Speaker 2: visibility into that before you commit to a relationship. Yeah.
16:44
Speaker 1: It's hard to know, right? When we start our relationships, right?
16:47
Speaker 1: Cause we're very different life stage developments, right? When we're
16:49
Speaker 1: in grad school or we're in college or even immediately
16:52
Speaker 1: after when we're working our first jobs, we think we
16:54
Speaker 1: want one thing, right? But as soon as, you know, we, we,
16:58
Speaker 1: get a little bit more established when we get along,
17:00
Speaker 1: people can reestablish priorities and goals depending on, again, and
17:05
Speaker 1: this is if you're getting all your positive feedback from
17:07
Speaker 1: your work, your goals might be reoriented more around goal
17:09
Speaker 1: than it is around your home life. Just because that
17:12
Speaker 1: feels better. Right. And it's, it's a shame for both
17:18
Speaker 1: parties because you can't predict that sort of thing. Right.
17:22
Speaker 1: And if you're not like brutally honest upfront about what
17:24
Speaker 1: the possibilities are or what you're in for it, you
17:26
Speaker 1: may run into that issue. You may run into that issue.
17:30
Speaker 1: It may not matter.
17:33
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think it's also subterranean. Like, who's going
17:37
Speaker 2: to say out loud, I care more about my career
17:40
Speaker 2: than our kids. Yeah. That is not like those are
17:44
Speaker 2: not words that are uttered, even if that is actually
17:47
Speaker 2: what people are.
17:47
Speaker 1: Correct. The only exception that I can give is if
17:49
Speaker 1: it's two very career driven people who are on board
17:51
Speaker 1: for that. Of like, hey, we're both career-driven people. Like
17:54
Speaker 1: we prioritize a career over. This is a compatibility thing
17:57
Speaker 1: where actually we feel more compatible because you're much more
18:00
Speaker 1: career-driven than anything else. Now how do we balance relationship
18:03
Speaker 1: around both of us prioritizing our career over one another?
18:06
Speaker 1: Can we make that fit in? Yes and no.
18:10
Speaker 2: Got it. Okay. Well, Silas, you have done such a
18:15
Speaker 2: magnificent job of kind of setting the framework and also
18:19
Speaker 2: giving us some visibility into what it feels like to
18:24
Speaker 2: be the partner who's almost like, I don't, I don't
18:27
Speaker 2: know if this is the right word, but waiting, wanting,
18:30
Speaker 2: like when are you coming home? Like that kind of
18:32
Speaker 2: thing and what that does and that disconnect and how
18:35
Speaker 2: it erodes over time. We have to take a quick break,
18:38
Speaker 2: but on the other side, I wonder if you could
18:41
Speaker 2: also take us more deeply into the experience of the
18:44
Speaker 2: other person and what that feels like. Because my hope
18:48
Speaker 2: is that when we get both of those things out
18:50
Speaker 2: onto the table, we can start talking about how to
18:53
Speaker 2: build bridges to the center, which today is why people
18:57
Speaker 2: are listening to this. We're going to deliver. So we'll
19:00
Speaker 2: be right back. So we're back with my friend and colleague,
19:11
Speaker 2: Silas Hendrick, a licensed marriage and family therapist who specializes
19:15
Speaker 2: in relationships and particularly relationships where there are differences in
19:22
Speaker 2: career orientations. Silas, I know you work with a lot
19:25
Speaker 2: of couples where one person is maybe a medical professional,
19:29
Speaker 2: law enforcement, entrepreneurs, helping people build bridges to the center
19:34
Speaker 2: so that they can have a satisfying relationship and happy
19:38
Speaker 2: personal life in addition to a spectacular career. And so
19:43
Speaker 2: before we took a break, we were talking about what
19:46
Speaker 2: it really feels like and looks like for the person
19:48
Speaker 2: who is less career. oriented, waiting, watching, wanting their partner, right?
19:54
Speaker 2: Who's always, you know, out slaying dragons or whatever. But
19:58
Speaker 2: take us into what you have come to understand. But
20:02
Speaker 2: the perspective of the person who is out there doing
20:06
Speaker 2: all the things and what that starts to do to
20:09
Speaker 2: them over time and how it impacts the relationship. Yeah.
20:13
Speaker 1: So we should acknowledge that there's like an underlying, like
20:17
Speaker 1: societal process going on here that societally we glorify the
20:24
Speaker 1: hard worker, right. Or the person who is doing the
20:27
Speaker 1: incredible thing. We glorify the entrepreneur, we glorify the doctor.
20:32
Speaker 1: society doesn't look as kindly at the partner who is
20:35
Speaker 1: maybe less career oriented. It is more about homemaking or
20:39
Speaker 1: that sort of stability by and large. And so that
20:44
Speaker 1: is like a, like a, a, a, like a self-reinforcing
20:48
Speaker 1: message going under the surface. Like I can't challenge what
20:51
Speaker 1: my partner is doing or how much time they're spending
20:53
Speaker 1: on doing it because they're working so hard. They're so productive.
20:58
Speaker 1: Look at all the amazing things that they're doing. My
21:00
Speaker 1: needs pale in comparison to the needs that they're meeting
21:03
Speaker 1: outward in this way, right? How can I ask for
21:07
Speaker 1: things when their mission or their goal is so serving
21:11
Speaker 1: or so valuable, right? And so there's almost like an
21:15
Speaker 1: ethical or a moralistic issue there, which reinforces a dynamic
21:21
Speaker 1: that I think a lot of those partners struggle with,
21:22
Speaker 1: which is it's really hard to ask for what they need.
21:24
Speaker 1: And sometimes they wait too long or wait too much
21:27
Speaker 1: or they... sit on too much before they say something
21:31
Speaker 1: something is wrong right i want to be supportive of
21:34
Speaker 1: my partner i don't want them to take away from
21:35
Speaker 1: all the work that they're doing i don't want to
21:37
Speaker 1: be the thing that gets in the way of their
21:39
Speaker 1: success or the benefits that they're bringing about their lives
21:42
Speaker 1: like i don't want to get in the way of
21:43
Speaker 1: the doctor who is saving people's lives i don't want
21:45
Speaker 1: to make them feel bad about the work that they're
21:47
Speaker 1: doing when it's already so difficult.
21:51
Speaker 2: Yeah uh And you're absolutely right. There's also the societal
21:56
Speaker 2: message about what they're doing is important and valuable. And
21:59
Speaker 2: so that we need to prioritize this and help them.
22:03
Speaker 2: So your needs take a back seat. And I, okay,
22:08
Speaker 2: I guess two things coming up here. And I know
22:13
Speaker 2: like even just thinking about my own relationship, because I'm
22:17
Speaker 2: the maniac in my marriage, right? And so I think
22:19
Speaker 2: that there's also over time, especially in certain seasons, like
22:25
Speaker 2: the mental and emotional, even physical toll that that starts
22:28
Speaker 2: to take on somebody. And I don't ask to do
22:31
Speaker 2: any overly personal questions, but I would imagine anybody in
22:35
Speaker 2: your partner's role who's an emergency room doc, especially a trainee,
22:39
Speaker 2: who might struggle with things like burnout, vicarious trauma, feeling
22:43
Speaker 2: really overwhelmed, like coming home after days of this and
22:46
Speaker 2: not actually being that okay. I know I've had some
22:49
Speaker 2: weeks where I'm like, not that okay. great and not
22:53
Speaker 2: taking good care of myself, not sleeping. And so then
22:56
Speaker 2: I think that what that turns into is if I
23:00
Speaker 2: start asking them to do more stuff for me now,
23:02
Speaker 2: it's just going to make them worse. It's going to
23:04
Speaker 2: be harder. They're obviously not okay.
23:07
Speaker 1: Exactly. Like the exhaustion, the fatigue of maintaining that can
23:12
Speaker 1: get to our partner sometimes, right? And with the It's
23:17
Speaker 1: great that you brought it there, Lisa, because that creates
23:19
Speaker 1: another cycle where resentment can happen, which is like, I'm
23:21
Speaker 1: the supportive partner. I want to help my partner. I
23:23
Speaker 1: see that my partner is getting home fatigued and exhausted.
23:26
Speaker 1: And I'm like, hey, have you eaten today?
23:29
Speaker 2: Right.
23:29
Speaker 1: Have you consumed any food?
23:30
Speaker 2: Right.
23:31
Speaker 1: Like what's going on there? Drinking water. I mean, basic
23:34
Speaker 1: needs like that's what I think you have. I mean,
23:37
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've had those days, Lisa, where you're working
23:39
Speaker 1: so much that like where do you fit in the
23:40
Speaker 1: lunch break? You don't. I'm guessing, right? Are you drinking
23:44
Speaker 1: water throughout the day?
23:46
Speaker 2: Food is for more at all.
23:48
Speaker 1: And, you know, and so like, and the support partner
23:50
Speaker 1: sees that they're like, right, that is a need that
23:52
Speaker 1: I can help with, right? I can't help with all
23:54
Speaker 1: their work-related stress. I can't answer any of those questions.
23:57
Speaker 1: I can't help them with that. What I can help
23:59
Speaker 1: them with is I can make sure that you're eating
24:01
Speaker 1: or I can make sure that you're drinking. I'd be like, hey,
24:03
Speaker 1: when you're on shift, in my example, like, can you
24:06
Speaker 1: take five minutes to go and take care of it personally?
24:08
Speaker 1: You can go to the bathroom, like that sort of stuff, right?
24:12
Speaker 1: But you're telling that someone who is so fatigued and exhausted,
24:15
Speaker 1: they know that they need to eat.
24:17
Speaker 2: Right.
24:17
Speaker 1: But they may not feel like the physical desire even
24:19
Speaker 1: to eat.
24:20
Speaker 2: Right.
24:21
Speaker 1: Or they may be like, I can't even take time
24:24
Speaker 1: for that. Like, I got to keep going.
24:26
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah. Or it's a vending machine. Yeah.
24:28
Speaker 1: Or it's a vending machine. And I'm sitting in a
24:29
Speaker 1: supportive partner like I can make you lunches. I can
24:31
Speaker 1: make sure that the hot meals are done. And, you know,
24:34
Speaker 1: like they may or may not be able to actually
24:36
Speaker 1: utilize those. And I feel resentful for trying so hard
24:39
Speaker 1: to meet those basic needs that then go go unmet.
24:41
Speaker 2: Yeah. Right.
24:42
Speaker 1: To no fault of anyone's. But like, and that's, I think,
24:46
Speaker 1: the thing that gets people stuck up. It certainly gets
24:49
Speaker 1: me stuck a little bit. It's like, this is no
24:51
Speaker 1: fault of anyone. Why am I so angry and frustrated
24:53
Speaker 1: with my partner? Like, they're not letting me help.
24:57
Speaker 2: I'm very bad. Matt said the same thing. Why do
25:00
Speaker 2: I spend all this time making dinners for everybody that
25:02
Speaker 2: nobody eats? You know, and because it does take energy
25:05
Speaker 2: and it's also an expression of love. And then people
25:08
Speaker 2: are right. Like not.
25:10
Speaker 1: And you're kind of limited to that, it feels like.
25:12
Speaker 1: Sometimes that feels like that's all I can do.
25:14
Speaker 2: Yeah. Right? I hear that.
25:18
Speaker 1: And, you know, it's like a no-win scenario for everyone involved,
25:21
Speaker 1: except it isn't. And maybe we'll get to that here
25:24
Speaker 1: soon of like, okay, like what can you do and
25:26
Speaker 1: how do you acknowledge these things?
25:27
Speaker 2: We're going to turn a corner and bring us back
25:29
Speaker 2: into the life we are. We're going to get there. But,
25:31
Speaker 2: you know, another thing that's coming up for me, and
25:33
Speaker 2: I feel like we just need to talk about this because,
25:35
Speaker 2: you know, I think maybe many times the default assumption
25:37
Speaker 2: is that in this here scenario, the entrepreneur, the person
25:42
Speaker 2: with a big career might be the male partner, at
25:44
Speaker 2: least in a heterosexual relationship, and that a woman would
25:47
Speaker 2: take more of a supportive role. And so we're both
25:49
Speaker 2: in situations where that is not the case. And I
25:50
Speaker 2: think it's actually less the case than people might assume,
25:54
Speaker 2: which is fine. But do you think this is a
25:58
Speaker 2: different experience for, you know, a man in a supportive
26:03
Speaker 2: role in a heterosexual relationship than it might be for
26:06
Speaker 2: a woman? Are there other complexities to this or not?
26:10
Speaker 1: That's a really good question, Lisa. And it's probably something
26:13
Speaker 1: that I should be confronting more in my own personal work.
26:18
Speaker 1: I was in a conversation with my partner, maybe a
26:20
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, and it was something related with money.
26:23
Speaker 1: And like, she's sort of challenged me. She's like, do
26:25
Speaker 1: you think that you're uncomfortable with the fact that I'm
26:27
Speaker 1: going to make way more money with you? And this
26:28
Speaker 1: is why we're having this conversation. And I had that
26:30
Speaker 1: thought of like, I've known for a long time that
26:32
Speaker 1: you're going to make a lot more money than I am.
26:34
Speaker 2: Right.
26:35
Speaker 1: And I thought that I'd come to terms with it,
26:36
Speaker 1: but maybe I didn't. And maybe there is a part
26:39
Speaker 1: of me that's resentful or struggling with that. How would
26:42
Speaker 1: I know if that was the case? Everyone should be
26:46
Speaker 1: seeing a therapist or a coach to help challenge you
26:50
Speaker 1: on these things. But I think there is probably some
26:52
Speaker 1: uniqueness as people are adjusting to new family structures and
26:57
Speaker 1: new income potentials and just different dynamics that I think
27:02
Speaker 1: we're not used to societally and not prepared for societally
27:06
Speaker 1: that can cause some friction there.
27:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, I get that. And that's that. What does it
27:12
Speaker 2: mean about me? Do I have thoughts or beliefs about
27:16
Speaker 2: what should be happening that's different than what is happening?
27:19
Speaker 2: And is there like almost an inner tension that's creating,
27:23
Speaker 2: contributing to the stress?
27:25
Speaker 1: I think for men who are on the flip side
27:27
Speaker 1: of all of this, I think that there is a
27:29
Speaker 1: certain amount of like shame and insecurity that they have
27:32
Speaker 1: a hard time confronting with that of like, maybe I've
27:37
Speaker 1: looked at all the examples of other men in my
27:38
Speaker 1: life and they're always the primary breadwinner or the primary
27:41
Speaker 1: worker and this kind of stuff. And I'm in a
27:43
Speaker 1: relationship where I'm not, and I feel like I need
27:45
Speaker 1: to be contributing more. And what I'm contributing from my
27:47
Speaker 1: household doesn't feel real to me because I haven't been
27:49
Speaker 1: told or presented that's a real contribution or not.
27:54
Speaker 2: That's really unfortunate because it is, it's so important. I mean,
27:59
Speaker 2: somebody needs to be holding down the freaking fort or
28:01
Speaker 2: it's not going to work, but, but there's almost more, um,
28:06
Speaker 2: approval or acknowledgement for a woman to be in that role,
28:10
Speaker 2: that to be a man in that role, it feels
28:12
Speaker 2: like you're not contributing.
28:13
Speaker 1: Am I doing enough? And I'm even, am I even
28:15
Speaker 1: doing a good job of it? Even right. Like if,
28:18
Speaker 1: if I'm the one who's at home and I'm working, right.
28:20
Speaker 1: But like, I have way more capacity for like outside
28:23
Speaker 1: behaviors or outside, you know, my household management than my
28:26
Speaker 1: partner does. Am I doing a good enough job or
28:29
Speaker 1: are they just actually better at that than me too?
28:32
Speaker 1: And so why am I bothering? And it becomes this
28:35
Speaker 1: really cruel cycle where now they're definitely not going to
28:37
Speaker 1: voice any needs that they have because they feel like
28:39
Speaker 1: they're failing at the one thing that is kind of
28:41
Speaker 1: their domain while they're also not making as much money.
28:44
Speaker 1: And they're floundering and thinking like, oh, I don't deserve
28:48
Speaker 1: this person now. It's gone even further. And so I
28:53
Speaker 1: think that is so hard to deal with that level
28:57
Speaker 1: of shame and insecurity. And I mean, Lisa, as you
29:00
Speaker 1: and I both know, shame only gets more powerful in life.
29:03
Speaker 1: the more we avoid it and the longer we go
29:05
Speaker 1: at acknowledging that shame, it gets more and more powerful
29:07
Speaker 1: over time. And it leads again to like a lack
29:10
Speaker 1: of confidence within a relationship that has a whole slew
29:13
Speaker 1: of downstream negative impacts on our relationship.
29:17
Speaker 2: Absolutely. You know, like I've heard Matt, I'm coming in
29:21
Speaker 2: the doors like seven o'clock at night, I've been sitting
29:24
Speaker 2: at my desk, it's a freaking five o'clock in the morning.
29:26
Speaker 2: And Matt will pull like a frozen pizza out of the, like,
29:30
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. And I'm like, are you kidding? Like
29:33
Speaker 2: the fact that somebody did something about dinner that wasn't me, like,
29:36
Speaker 2: I don't care. Cheese and crackers, totally fine. But like, there's,
29:40
Speaker 2: but that to be mindful that you're saying that out
29:43
Speaker 2: loud because of what you're saying, this like shame piece,
29:47
Speaker 2: because then that contributes to this lack of communication, this
29:51
Speaker 2: disconnection that if you're not okay, you feel like you
29:53
Speaker 2: can't talk about it. And like hiding, you know, I
29:57
Speaker 2: think shame makes us all hide. Yeah.
29:59
Speaker 1: And it's lovely to bring up like a genuine expression
30:02
Speaker 1: of gratitude. That's enthusiastic can do so much good for
30:05
Speaker 1: a situation like that. Like, like my partner may be
30:09
Speaker 1: exhausted and fatigued and tired whenever she gets home.
30:13
Speaker 2: Right.
30:13
Speaker 1: But if she gives me like, Oh my God, this
30:15
Speaker 1: dinner is amazing. Like it tastes really good. Like, thank
30:18
Speaker 1: you so much for doing this. Even if it's a
30:19
Speaker 1: frozen piece or anything like that, like that level of
30:22
Speaker 1: enthusiasm tonally and that warmth that she can convey does
30:28
Speaker 1: so much good. to everyone involved really because it means
30:32
Speaker 1: that i can match that and that can be just
30:34
Speaker 1: as warmful and thoughtful back to her which is good
30:36
Speaker 1: and so it creates this positive feedback loop that is
30:39
Speaker 1: beneficial but feels impossible at times right i mean how
30:42
Speaker 1: can i expect her to do that every day when
30:44
Speaker 1: say she had like two or three people die or
30:47
Speaker 1: she had a 30 year old who went through a
30:48
Speaker 1: cardiac arrest that she doesn't know if they're going to
30:51
Speaker 1: make it the next day as she's checking their charts
30:54
Speaker 1: throughout the evening to see what's happening with it. How,
30:56
Speaker 1: how is she supposed to do that? Lisa, how are
30:58
Speaker 1: you supposed to do that after you have like 10
31:00
Speaker 1: back-to-back meetings in a day and you pop out and
31:04
Speaker 1: all you want to do is go to bed and
31:05
Speaker 1: go to sleep, but you have to do more work.
31:07
Speaker 1: And then your partner's like, Hey, what about me?
31:11
Speaker 2: Oh, all right. Now that we are all thoroughly depressed,
31:14
Speaker 2: we're going to take another break. And on the other side,
31:18
Speaker 2: we're also going to talk about the happy path and,
31:22
Speaker 2: How do you find a balance? Because I know, and
31:24
Speaker 2: I have lived this and I know that you have
31:26
Speaker 2: as well. How do we navigate this where it could
31:28
Speaker 2: be a both and? There is a happy medium and
31:32
Speaker 2: it can get better. So Silas, you're going to take
31:35
Speaker 2: us there when we come back. We are back with
31:55
Speaker 2: my colleague, Silas Hendrick, a marriage and family therapist who
31:58
Speaker 2: specializes in healthy relationships and who has special insight into
32:03
Speaker 2: partnerships where there might be differences in career orientation and
32:10
Speaker 2: helping couples find their way forward. So Silas, we spent
32:13
Speaker 2: a really, I think, productive time so far together. unpacking
32:18
Speaker 2: like the deeper layers of this experience, which is so
32:22
Speaker 2: important because I don't know about you, but for me
32:27
Speaker 2: as a relationship counselor, I think that it's very easy
32:30
Speaker 2: to see what's happening on the surface and the things
32:33
Speaker 2: that we don't like. It'd be like, I don't like
32:36
Speaker 2: that and that and that. Whereas to kind of really
32:39
Speaker 2: go deeper and understand why they're happening and how people
32:44
Speaker 2: are really feeling and some of the like, dynamics that
32:48
Speaker 2: are holding these things in place and making it hard
32:50
Speaker 2: to change. There's so much empathy there that I think
32:54
Speaker 2: is incredibly important because when we really understand it more deeply,
32:58
Speaker 2: you have more opportunities to connect and start to create
33:03
Speaker 2: positive change in a relationship that's more than mechanical, you know,
33:07
Speaker 2: like I need you home by six would be a
33:10
Speaker 2: mechanical thing as opposed to a real opportunity for deeper connection.
33:14
Speaker 2: So thank you, first of all, for taking us there.
33:17
Speaker 1: Of course.
33:17
Speaker 2: For superpower. And with these things in mind, when you
33:22
Speaker 2: have worked with people or perhaps even in your own
33:24
Speaker 2: life where people have found a healthy balance where there
33:29
Speaker 2: is that bull van, what happens that creates that?
33:33
Speaker 1: So one of the, I think, most effective interventions is
33:37
Speaker 1: that i can do with a couple who are in
33:38
Speaker 1: this kind of situation is it's addressing this sort of
33:41
Speaker 1: like out of control like we have no agency or
33:44
Speaker 1: power to change our our situation that as soon as
33:48
Speaker 1: we can get even or even an ounce of control
33:51
Speaker 1: or an expectation that can be readily met a lot
33:55
Speaker 1: of the frustration resentments that can come with this sort
33:57
Speaker 1: of dynamic can begin to fade away a little bit
34:00
Speaker 1: more and one of the common complaints that happens with
34:02
Speaker 1: a couple in this situation is like I can't, there's
34:05
Speaker 1: the partner who works and has a career. They're like,
34:07
Speaker 1: I can't set any boundaries, right? If work calls, I
34:09
Speaker 1: have to answer, right? I can't say no at any
34:12
Speaker 1: point to the career, right? This creates resentment from the
34:16
Speaker 1: partner in their side. Cause it's like, I can't count
34:18
Speaker 1: on you for anything. Like I have no reasonable expectation
34:21
Speaker 1: for when you're going to be home or the, basically
34:23
Speaker 1: what you're telling me is that I can't expect anything
34:25
Speaker 1: from you. What I get is essentially a bonus and
34:28
Speaker 1: I should be grateful for that. And that's one of the,
34:31
Speaker 1: quickest things that I and my work begin to evaluate
34:34
Speaker 1: a little bit is like, how true is it that
34:35
Speaker 1: we can't set boundaries? And is that actually the case?
34:40
Speaker 1: Or is that just something that we have gotten used
34:42
Speaker 1: to over time as it's slowly encroached and begin to
34:45
Speaker 1: dominate our lives? Is there even one day a week
34:48
Speaker 1: where you can set a reasonable boundary with work where
34:50
Speaker 1: you will absolutely be at home at a certain time, right?
34:53
Speaker 1: So that your partner can count on that at the
34:56
Speaker 1: very least, right? If we can set even one boundary
34:59
Speaker 1: with work, That can open up a whole slew of
35:01
Speaker 1: opportunities for that couple, which is like, oh, actually, we
35:04
Speaker 1: can do this. And the consequences of setting that boundary
35:06
Speaker 1: that I thought were the case were not actually the
35:08
Speaker 1: case or they were different than what I had realized.
35:11
Speaker 1: That sort of intervention can be really powerful for being like, oh,
35:15
Speaker 1: maybe we can have our cake and eat it, too,
35:16
Speaker 1: at least a little bit. Sure. And having a sense
35:19
Speaker 1: of agency or control is a big deal just from
35:21
Speaker 1: a psychological perspective, but even a relational health perspective, like
35:26
Speaker 1: we're not.
35:26
Speaker 2: Yeah.
35:27
Speaker 1: Helpless. We're not at the whimsy of whatever the winds
35:30
Speaker 1: are taking us to. Like we can steer the ship
35:33
Speaker 1: at least a little bit.
35:34
Speaker 2: Right.
35:35
Speaker 1: That is enormously helpful.
35:36
Speaker 2: Can I also add to this a perspective for like
35:40
Speaker 2: the entrepreneur in the relationship or the person with the big,
35:43
Speaker 2: huge career? Because this is actually something that changed things
35:46
Speaker 2: for me. You know, I think that years ago, there
35:49
Speaker 2: was a certain level of nobility that comes with being
35:52
Speaker 2: a like maniac workaholic, right? Like I'm doing all the
35:56
Speaker 2: things and whatever. But, you know, I think it is
35:59
Speaker 2: also true, especially as you develop a business or become
36:05
Speaker 2: more established in a career, that the true measure of
36:10
Speaker 2: success is actually your freedom. And if you're an entrepreneur
36:13
Speaker 2: who cannot leave your business for 10 minutes because things
36:16
Speaker 2: will fall apart, it's actually a sign of a dysfunctional, non-scalable,
36:20
Speaker 2: poorly managed business. It's not like some kind of heroic thing.
36:24
Speaker 2: And getting that memo was like, oh. And I think
36:28
Speaker 2: it's true for a lot of people in careers that
36:30
Speaker 2: especially if you have attained a certain level, your status
36:33
Speaker 2: symbol is the ability to have more control over your
36:37
Speaker 2: time and your energy. And so I just wanted to
36:38
Speaker 2: put that out there for any, and I know that,
36:40
Speaker 2: you know, there are seasons we do what we have
36:42
Speaker 2: to do, but take that in the hopper.
36:43
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up because even
36:45
Speaker 1: like the fear, the sheer fear and terror of like
36:48
Speaker 1: letting go and, and setting a boundary with work is
36:51
Speaker 1: enormous for so many people, right? Even if they know
36:54
Speaker 1: that that the promised land of where they're going to,
36:57
Speaker 1: They think, oh, I have to get to the problem
36:59
Speaker 1: zone in order to have that, right? I have to
37:00
Speaker 1: make X, Y, Z certain goal, or I need to
37:02
Speaker 1: do X, Y, Z certain thing in order to do that,
37:05
Speaker 1: which is not always the case. But you really have
37:08
Speaker 1: to talk about the real and present danger and fear
37:10
Speaker 1: that comes with it. And the responsibility that person holds
37:12
Speaker 1: of like, if I set a boundary with work and
37:14
Speaker 1: it doesn't work out, and it means that we lose revenue, right?
37:17
Speaker 1: That impacts my partner. And that's a bad thing too.
37:19
Speaker 1: So I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.
37:21
Speaker 1: And it feels like I, or at least it feels
37:22
Speaker 1: like I am.
37:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does. Yeah, but you're saying to do some
37:27
Speaker 2: reality testing around what is fear. You know, most entrepreneurs
37:32
Speaker 2: are deeply traumatized individuals is also part of this as well.
37:35
Speaker 2: But like, so what is that like, you know, the
37:38
Speaker 2: catastrophe narrative that's coming up. And so what you're saying
37:40
Speaker 2: is to really sit down and take a look at
37:42
Speaker 2: what are the points of control and what is a
37:45
Speaker 2: reality based fear that isn't. And just to see like
37:48
Speaker 2: what you have to work with would be step one. Yeah.
37:50
Speaker 1: And that we call it step one. That's a really
37:52
Speaker 1: complicated step. Yeah.
37:55
Speaker 2: Right.
37:55
Speaker 1: I think we're oversimplifying it a little bit for the
37:57
Speaker 1: audience a little bit, right? Because one of the big
37:59
Speaker 1: barriers there is like the partner who's asking for that
38:02
Speaker 1: needs to understand what they're asking for in terms of
38:04
Speaker 1: like the fear and the terror. Like if they don't
38:05
Speaker 1: have a level of like empathy and validation towards that
38:08
Speaker 1: with the partner who's working, that partner is not going
38:10
Speaker 1: to let go. If you don't understand like what it
38:13
Speaker 1: takes for me to set this boundary with work, I'm
38:15
Speaker 1: not going to do it.
38:16
Speaker 2: Right? Right. And there might be structural things. I mean,
38:19
Speaker 2: it might take like months of work to actually get
38:22
Speaker 2: it to that place where you can do that. Yeah.
38:25
Speaker 1: And this is easy when it's an early intervention. It's
38:28
Speaker 1: really hard when it's a late intervention, when a couple
38:30
Speaker 1: has been stuck in the cycle for a very long time.
38:33
Speaker 2: Right.
38:33
Speaker 1: Because I have seen so many couples where like, there's
38:36
Speaker 1: like an eye roll that happens when the, I'm talking
38:40
Speaker 1: about this with a couple and the, the partner with
38:43
Speaker 1: the career driven stuff is like, oh yeah, yeah. I, I,
38:45
Speaker 1: I've been working an X, Y, Z thing so I
38:47
Speaker 1: can get time away and I can spend more time
38:48
Speaker 1: at home. And I see the other part of roll
38:50
Speaker 1: their eyes and be like, oh, you said they've said
38:51
Speaker 1: that for the past five years.
38:53
Speaker 2: Yeah.
38:54
Speaker 1: I don't have any reason to believe that that's true.
38:58
Speaker 2: Trust has been eroded.
39:01
Speaker 1: And it can be brought back, but it is hard
39:05
Speaker 1: to do when it's been five years as opposed to
39:08
Speaker 1: one year. It's a little bit easier to get some
39:09
Speaker 1: buy-in to that and create some shifts. Yeah, that makes
39:14
Speaker 1: a lot of sense.
39:15
Speaker 2: But so the road to repair then is showing your partner,
39:21
Speaker 2: it sounds like, that it can be different. Here's where
39:24
Speaker 2: I can have control. Here's where I can come home.
39:27
Speaker 2: Here's where I can be more reliable, more present. but
39:30
Speaker 2: then follow.
39:30
Speaker 1: Yeah. You need traction. You need a win somewhere to
39:34
Speaker 1: start to build buy-ins. Once you have one win, then
39:37
Speaker 1: you need more, but it becomes a little bit easier.
39:40
Speaker 2: Yeah. So that's the first step. As they say in AA,
39:45
Speaker 2: watch that first step. It's a bit. What's the next step?
39:48
Speaker 2: Then what do you? You know, the people listening to
39:51
Speaker 2: this just like to thank you for saying this is
39:53
Speaker 2: a process. It occurs over time. I'm hearing that especially
39:57
Speaker 2: if it has become entrenched, you might want some support
40:01
Speaker 2: to help.
40:03
Speaker 1: I think you need a way to inject some like
40:07
Speaker 1: warmth and compassion back into the relationship and that Again,
40:10
Speaker 1: that's simple to say hard to do, right? Because you're
40:15
Speaker 1: probably dealing with one or both partners who's dealing with
40:18
Speaker 1: like some self-esteem or some confidence issues as a result
40:21
Speaker 1: of this dynamic for a long time. And here you,
40:26
Speaker 1: positive feedback loops are the best ones, right? We want
40:30
Speaker 1: to solicit change through positive feedback more than negative feedback
40:34
Speaker 1: and finding ways to do that. It can be challenging,
40:37
Speaker 1: but very rewarding when you find something that works.
40:40
Speaker 2: Right. Like. Give us an example.
40:42
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I'll use one from like my personal life
40:45
Speaker 1: of like a, and I've sort of already alluded to this,
40:49
Speaker 1: but my partner's like enthusiasm when she greets me, when
40:53
Speaker 1: she comes home from work is really key. She's really
40:55
Speaker 1: good at doing it in a way that I can
40:57
Speaker 1: imagine is sometimes difficult to do.
41:00
Speaker 2: Right.
41:00
Speaker 1: That it's very hard to feel warm and positive towards
41:05
Speaker 1: someone when they're just greeting you in that sort of monotone, like, Hey,
41:08
Speaker 1: how's it going? How's your day? sort of like token
41:11
Speaker 1: responses versus a, Hey, it's so nice to see you.
41:14
Speaker 1: I'm glad that I'm home. I'm sorry that I'm late X, Y,
41:17
Speaker 1: and Z happened, but I'm so glad that I'm home
41:20
Speaker 1: and I'm looking forward to spending some time with you.
41:22
Speaker 1: That holds a lot of power as opposed to, Hey,
41:26
Speaker 1: I had a crappy day at work. I don't want
41:28
Speaker 1: to talk about it. Yeah. Like, you know, Even if
41:31
Speaker 1: those things are true and you are feeling really low fatigue,
41:34
Speaker 1: that capacity to like take 30 seconds before you walk
41:36
Speaker 1: in that door to compose yourself so that you can
41:38
Speaker 1: deliver this sort of more enthusiastic response.
41:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, like come with a little bit of energy.
41:42
Speaker 1: Yeah.
41:43
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Right?
41:44
Speaker 1: And that positivity can create a positive feedback loop that
41:46
Speaker 1: really injects itself into the system as a whole. Right.
41:50
Speaker 1: That the person receiving it, they feel really good. So
41:52
Speaker 1: it's a lot easier for them to... For instance, be
41:56
Speaker 1: forgiving for a boundary that was crossed a little bit
41:58
Speaker 1: of like, well, you walked in 20 minutes late. However,
42:02
Speaker 1: like you were so excited to see me that I
42:04
Speaker 1: almost don't care. Those little instances are small in nature,
42:09
Speaker 1: but big in impact if they are done regularly and
42:13
Speaker 1: with some amount of value. Right?
42:16
Speaker 2: Yeah.
42:17
Speaker 1: The other thing that really kind of comes to mind
42:19
Speaker 1: with that is how do you share about your day?
42:21
Speaker 1: I think this is an issue that happens. a lot
42:25
Speaker 1: with people who are highly career oriented is that they're spending,
42:29
Speaker 1: you know, they like work, they enjoy it.
42:31
Speaker 2: Right.
42:31
Speaker 1: And they're doing 80% of the day. And sometimes when
42:34
Speaker 1: they come home, they're disincentivized to talk about it because
42:37
Speaker 1: maybe they want to get away with it for a change.
42:39
Speaker 1: They don't want to talk about it too much, or
42:42
Speaker 1: they're so tired about even thinking about that. They like,
42:45
Speaker 1: I just want to like shut down basically.
42:48
Speaker 2: Right.
42:49
Speaker 1: And if we look at it from the inside, what
42:50
Speaker 1: does that say to your partners? Like, Oh, you're spending
42:52
Speaker 1: 80% of 90% of your time, outside of this relationship.
42:55
Speaker 1: And you won't even tell me a little bit about it.
42:56
Speaker 1: Like I can't even be involved in your life.
42:58
Speaker 2: Right.
42:59
Speaker 1: Like I understand that I can't literally understand what my
43:02
Speaker 1: partner's day is like at work, but it's nice to
43:04
Speaker 1: still hear about it and at least be told, yeah,
43:06
Speaker 1: like I had this really challenging thing that happened to
43:09
Speaker 1: me today, or I had this really great thing that
43:10
Speaker 1: happened to me today. Like I want to still want
43:13
Speaker 1: to know some things, even if I can't engage with
43:15
Speaker 1: the material as well as, you know, say a colleague
43:18
Speaker 1: can or someone else. And if, if a partner gets
43:22
Speaker 1: stuck in the cycle where they're just not, about the
43:23
Speaker 1: kind of thing, what are they talking about, but how
43:25
Speaker 1: are they connecting over? Because that's the newness that's happening
43:28
Speaker 1: in relationship. You need novelty.
43:30
Speaker 2: Right.
43:31
Speaker 1: And yeah, absolutely. If the career driven person doesn't have
43:33
Speaker 1: a lot of hobbies or anything outside of work, like
43:35
Speaker 1: work is the thing that they can talk about. And
43:37
Speaker 1: if they stop talking about it, you don't have anything
43:39
Speaker 1: to connect over.
43:40
Speaker 2: That's a really good point.
43:43
Speaker 1: Yeah.
43:44
Speaker 2: And so to be inviting them to talk about things
43:47
Speaker 2: and their lives and almost like being a good friend
43:50
Speaker 2: and making space for it and understanding like what a
43:53
Speaker 2: big slice of the pie that might be for them
43:55
Speaker 2: in a way that's different for you. I would imagine
43:59
Speaker 2: the reverse is true as well. Like, you know, asking
44:03
Speaker 2: another partner, like making it a point to be curious
44:06
Speaker 2: about their life in that world.
44:08
Speaker 1: Making a point and I should call myself out here.
44:11
Speaker 1: Sometimes I don't feel like sharing about my day because
44:13
Speaker 1: it feels so much less interesting and valuable than what
44:15
Speaker 1: my partner's definition is.
44:18
Speaker 2: I went to Target.
44:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, I went to Target. I went to the grocery store.
44:21
Speaker 1: I bought things for us to eat at dinner, right?
44:24
Speaker 2: Which... Still like a thank God somebody. Right.
44:26
Speaker 1: But, you know, it's like, I don't want to talk
44:28
Speaker 1: about that because I want to hear about all the
44:30
Speaker 1: cool like procedures that my partner did. Like, it feels
44:32
Speaker 1: like a waste of time to talk about me stuff.
44:34
Speaker 2: Right.
44:34
Speaker 1: And sometimes she has to like challenge me a little
44:36
Speaker 1: bit like, no, no, I actually want to hear about
44:37
Speaker 1: your day. So I don't care if you didn't really
44:39
Speaker 1: do all that much today. Like, I still want to
44:40
Speaker 1: know about it. That intentionality and that thoughtfulness that's communicated
44:44
Speaker 1: with that statement, she may be just as bored as
44:46
Speaker 1: I am talking about how I went to the grocery
44:48
Speaker 1: store and I went to Target and I sat with
44:51
Speaker 1: three or four clients that day, but nothing really interesting
44:53
Speaker 1: happened because, again, I can't really tell her that much
44:55
Speaker 1: about my day either. Her communicating that she still wants
45:00
Speaker 1: to hear about it, even if she's not actually all
45:01
Speaker 1: that interested in it, secretly on the side, still feels
45:04
Speaker 1: valuable as a partner on the other side. And it's
45:06
Speaker 1: something that we can connect over and is really important
45:09
Speaker 1: that we do so.
45:09
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So look for those points of connection.
45:16
Speaker 2: Find opportunities to exert some agency there. And work on
45:22
Speaker 2: reestablishing trust, being more reliable and intentionally creating spaces that
45:28
Speaker 2: you can commit to and follow through. These are really good. And,
45:31
Speaker 2: you know, I love these because and I'm hearing you
45:35
Speaker 2: say that like just creating this can take some work.
45:40
Speaker 2: And so to not have unrealistic expectations about like snapping
45:43
Speaker 2: your fingers and it's different. But these are also very
45:45
Speaker 2: actionable and like not not anything crazy. Are there any
45:49
Speaker 2: other things that you'd like to share with our friends
45:51
Speaker 2: here before we wrap up or cover the biggest points?
45:55
Speaker 1: I think those are the two big, at least in
45:57
Speaker 1: terms of like early scaffolding things that are like really
45:59
Speaker 1: easy to do right off the bat. One thing that
46:03
Speaker 1: is very helpful, but is not always workable in different
46:07
Speaker 1: situations is taking your partner to work, right? Or that
46:12
Speaker 1: very literal, like let's spend a day in one another's
46:14
Speaker 1: shoes to a certain extent. Like that's not always workable,
46:17
Speaker 1: but it's very valuable for allowing empathy to come in
46:20
Speaker 1: something very cool that my partner's residency program did right along.
46:24
Speaker 2: Yeah.
46:24
Speaker 1: They allowed a partner shadow day.
46:26
Speaker 2: Right.
46:27
Speaker 1: So I filled out a bunch of paperwork, did a
46:30
Speaker 1: background check. Oh my God. Thankfully I didn't see anything
46:32
Speaker 1: gnarly where I can. And I spent a shift with her.
46:36
Speaker 2: Right.
46:37
Speaker 1: And I watched her be amazing and be incredible at
46:41
Speaker 1: her job. And also I got to see the realities
46:43
Speaker 1: of what is being asked of her on a daily
46:45
Speaker 1: basis and That for me made her decision fatigue was
46:49
Speaker 1: a lot easier for me to understand when I witnessed
46:51
Speaker 1: her being asked a question while she's writing a note,
46:55
Speaker 1: while she's filling out orders for patients, while she's doing
46:58
Speaker 1: a procedure. Yeah, like it's this constant thing. And I
47:02
Speaker 1: was like, oh, okay. I didn't fully understand even how
47:07
Speaker 1: empathetic it was, how many decisions you're making in a
47:10
Speaker 1: eight or 12 hour period that makes sense. Why, when
47:13
Speaker 1: I asked you, what do you want for dinner? You
47:14
Speaker 1: can't answer that. Like I get that now.
47:17
Speaker 2: But I'm imagining too. Well, and I don't know. And
47:20
Speaker 2: maybe this is like longer, like you have to stabilize,
47:23
Speaker 2: restore empathy, restore trust, get to a basic. But then
47:28
Speaker 2: at some point I would imagine starting to have like
47:33
Speaker 2: life design conversations. We just want to be doing this
47:37
Speaker 2: five years from.
47:37
Speaker 1: Now, 10 years from now. That's very much like the,
47:40
Speaker 1: not end phase, but medium, middle to end phase is,
47:44
Speaker 1: is this what we really want? And is this serving
47:47
Speaker 1: us and our true goals?
47:50
Speaker 2: Silas, this has been such a fascinating conversation. And I'm
47:56
Speaker 2: so glad that you joined me today and shared some
47:59
Speaker 2: of your expertise, but also are talking about a process
48:03
Speaker 2: of And you are not going to say this yourself,
48:06
Speaker 2: so I'm going to say it, that if anybody's listening
48:10
Speaker 2: to this and thinking like, oh my God, this is
48:11
Speaker 2: me in my life, we probably do need support. I
48:15
Speaker 2: hope that you reach out to Silas directly. Silas, you
48:18
Speaker 2: are just so masterful and come into this with so
48:21
Speaker 2: much sensitivity and insight, but also skill in like changing this,
48:27
Speaker 2: but in a very gentle, non-confrontational way that I really
48:30
Speaker 2: value about you. And so you guys, this is the situation,
48:34
Speaker 2: especially if you've been in it for a while, that
48:36
Speaker 2: does require support. And so you can come to growingself.com
48:40
Speaker 2: forward slash Silas, S I L A S growingself.com forward
48:45
Speaker 2: slash Silas to connect directly with Silas. I mean, you
48:49
Speaker 2: got a little bit of his insight and guidance, but
48:52
Speaker 2: there's so much more where that came from. You can
48:55
Speaker 2: book a free consultation with Silas just to kind of
48:57
Speaker 2: check it out, talk a little bit about your situation.
49:00
Speaker 2: Make sure it feels like a good fit on both sides.
49:02
Speaker 2: But it's no obligation. You can take it from there.
49:04
Speaker 2: So growingself.com forward slash Silas. So Silas, I want to
49:08
Speaker 2: be sensitive to your time. I know we've gone a
49:10
Speaker 2: little bit over, but I'm just so grateful for everything
49:12
Speaker 2: you shared today. And I'm glad we created a path
49:14
Speaker 2: forward for people to continue this conversation.
49:17
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you, Lisa. It was such a pleasure to
49:18
Speaker 1: be on and be able to talk about, essentially brag
49:21
Speaker 1: about my partner for an hour, but also talk about
49:24
Speaker 1: my expertise in the area.
49:26
Speaker 2: Well, good. Well, we're going to have to do this
49:27
Speaker 2: again because you are a multidimensional human with many areas
49:31
Speaker 2: of expertise. And so this is part one, but we'll
49:34
Speaker 2: do this again soon.
49:35
Speaker 1: Okay.
49:35
Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you so much for spending this time
49:56
Speaker 2: with me today. And if you have found this episode helpful,
50:01
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50:14
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50:17
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50:22
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50:25
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50:29
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