Latest / The Christy-Faith Show / Ep. 93 - Church Hurts: The Cost of Staying Too Long in a Toxic Community // Behind the Screen (Part 2/6)

Transcript

Ep. 93 - Church Hurts: The Cost of Staying Too Long in a Toxic Community // Behind the Screen (Part 2/6) · The Christy-Faith Show

• 0:00
  Christy-Faith: Good morning, mamas. It's Christy here. I just noticed in the camera, there's this little swirly do here. That's called bed head. It is 06:36AM.
• 0:08
  I was supposed to be filming this at 6AM. Maybe this will benefit you because I have to finish this thing pretty quickly to get to co op. Scott's waking up the kids right now. If you hear noise in the background, it's them eating breakfast before co op. But I am just so thankful to be here today.
• 0:24
  I've been praying about this episode and honestly praying that I don't mess up. I don't wanna wrong anybody when I go into what I am about to say in my own experience. And I think that I've done that. And if I haven't, let me know. I really truly don't wanna hurt anybody, but I do need to share my story about this particular time.
• 0:44
  Alright. Let's go. Have you ever blown up your own life on purpose? That's what we did a few years back when we had to leave the church that we were currently going to. And listen, it felt like escaping a cult.
• 0:59
  Now I know that sounds dramatic, but as I was contemplating it, there really isn't another way to describe it, and I don't wanna minimize people that actually have escaped cults. That's not my purpose here. But when I go into my story, I think you'll start to realize what it was costing us to leave at that time. Because when your entire life is wrapped up in one place, your friends, your kids' friends, every single person that you know, leaving doesn't feel like just changing churches. It feels a little bit like defecting, like leaving your entire life behind because the very thing that you've been called to do makes you wrong in their eyes.
• 1:37
  And we stayed so much longer than we should have. And you wanna know why? Because I couldn't name what was happening. I now have words, but I didn't at the time. I'd see something that bothered me and immediately start second guessing myself.
• 1:51
  Do you do that? Let me know in the comments. Just last night, I was like, oh my goodness. I'm gaslighting myself with this particular thing. It was like a silly thing with co op.
• 1:59
  But are you a person that goes, wait a minute. Am I actually the problem? Am I just being too critical or too judgmental? Is this just what being in real community looks like? And I need to buck up and pull up my big girl pants.
• 2:12
  Maybe I'm the one that needs to change. Do you tell yourself those things? We did, and then we just stayed, and we just tried to extend more grace and tell ourselves that we were overreacting with things that we saw. But it was death by a thousand cuts, you know? Each one small enough to explain away, but all of them together, they were eating away at me.
• 2:32
  And what finally changed? Well, I learned to name what I was seeing. Like, that's not strong leadership, that's spiritual abuse. And that's not actually concern for someone, that's a gossip dressed up with a Bible verse. And that's not biblical eldership, that's called nepotism.
• 2:50
  And the thing is is once you can finally name something, you can't unsee it. Hi. If you're new here, I'm Kristi Faith, author of Homeschool Rising, and you're still doing the hard internal work host. For the next several weeks, I'm stepping away from my typical show format. I'm really enjoying this, by the way.
• 3:08
  Just to take a break from kind of the tips and tricks and hacks and how to's. And I'm sharing six stories that have shaped who I am. The more vulnerable stuff, I'm sharing some painful stuff, and parts of my life that I don't usually talk about. And this right now is episode two of the series, and the series is called Behind the Screen. If you missed part one and you wanna know why I'm doing this series, kind of like the big heart pouring out moment where I explain why, please go to episode 91, the very first segment I explain everything.
• 3:41
  And no, this is not to be self indulgent. This is actually really hard for me. But the short version, why I'm doing this series, because real community, healthy community, real connection, and us belonging, what God wants truly for community requires vulnerability. And it's how we're wired and how we feel connected. And I don't just want to be useful to you.
• 4:06
  And I do enjoy being useful to you. Don't get me wrong. But I also have a deep desire to build something real with this podcast and with this community. I don't want you to just see a polished podcast host because girl, I am far from polished. Look at the part in my hair right now.
• 4:23
  It's so bad, and I'm still filming this. So the point is is that I'm going first. I wanna hear your thoughts about what I'm doing. I wanna hear in the comments if you relate to anything that I'm saying, if you're going through what I'm talking about right now. Today, I'm sharing what happened when we had to leave a church a while back.
• 4:42
  And I'm honestly scared to do this because part of what makes this so hard is that in all of the mess, I'm actually the villain in someone's story. And there are people who, if they listen to this, they will know that I'm talking about them. And I'm not interested in gossip, and I don't desire to just dig up the past and rehash old wounds. That's not what this is about. So I'm gonna try to be really careful when I explain my story because I don't wanna slander anybody.
• 5:10
  I don't wanna do that. But the story is really important for you to hear because it was such a shaping moment in our lives and also in me becoming the Christy faith that you know today. And I'm gonna share because this is about the messy, complicated reality of being human. The reality that you can be hurt and knowingly hurt others who you care about deeply at the same time. That sometimes the right choice causes tremendous pain for you and your family and for others, for people you genuinely care about.
• 5:41
  That you can love something and still need to leave it. And that growing up emotionally and spiritually sometimes means making peace with being misunderstood. Because sometimes in order to clear your name, it would require you becoming exactly what you're trying to walk away from. So the show really is it's just about living with hard choices, about accepting that you can never control the narrative of what is being told about you. I've really learned that since becoming somewhat of a public figure in the homeschool space.
• 6:13
  And about the grief of necessary endings and the courage that it takes to act sometimes when you know that some people will never understand. And the sadness of discovering which people in your life, the ones you thought were your friends, chose not to reach out, chose not to ask, chose to believe a version of you that isn't true. So if you're in a situation right now or have been, and you probably will be, where nothing feels clean, where every option seems to hurt, where you're grappling with your own guilt and shame, while also knowing that you need to protect yourself and your family, maybe this show today will help you feel less alone in that. Maybe this will help you understand that maturity isn't about getting it all right. It's often just about making the best choice you can with the situation that's in front of you, and then being willing to live with the aftermath.
• 7:05
  And I know what you're thinking right now. People leave churches all the time, Christy. This is kinda dumb. So why is this particular story one of my six stories in this series right now? It's because leaving this church wasn't about leaving a church.
• 7:19
  This was one of those pivotal life altering moments for us and our family. Up there with getting married, having kids, doing a major move, that kind of moment that divides your life into a before and after? Because this is when I became Christy Faith. The work that I do now, the way that I think about friendship and churches and relationships, the boundaries that I hold, all of it traces back to this season. Even starting Thrive Homeschool Community came from this.
• 7:49
  I did so much growing up emotionally and spiritually during that time in ways that were incredibly painful, but so necessary, and I'm thankful. And it's also where I learned something that I really didn't wanna learn, but thank you, God, anyway. That sometimes there is no way out that doesn't hurt people and people who you love. And I've had to learn to live with that, with being someone's villain, with causing pain I never intended or wanted to cause. And don't worry, I'll tell you the story.
• 8:20
  But that's been one of the hardest parts for me to carry, and it's not easy. And it's not something that I talk much about publicly at all. My friends know, and my family does. But yes, you're right. People do leave churches all of the time.
• 8:32
  But this, and I'm gonna explain further why it was such a big deal, this changed the trajectory of our entire lives. So let me tell you the story. Okay. Welcome back. Before we get into all of this, let me tell you about something that freed up over $12,000 a year in our budget.
• 9:02
  Our family of six was paying $2,000 a month for health insurance. $24,000 a year. And when we switched to health sharing instead of health insurance, we immediately started saving over $1,000 a month. That's $12,000 a year back into our budget. And before I was skeptical thinking, okay.
• 9:21
  What's the catch here? Moving to health sharing rather than health insurance because it's not health insurance, but it does replace it. And honestly, with Summit HealthShare, there is no catch. Just yesterday, they told me that another family saved over $11,000 a year by moving to Summit HealthShare, and they're now gonna be able to get better care. Here's the thing.
• 9:40
  You can keep your same doctor. Of course, you get the major medical. You get wellness visits, maternity programs, even holistic and functional medicine. And the plan I'm on, we get free labs and free prescription drugs. So if you're currently on health insurance, here's what you need to do.
• 9:55
  Just do me a favor and do this. Go to summithealthshare.com, and I'll put a link in the show notes. You can even do this right now while I'm talking. Use their savings calculator. It takes about thirty seconds.
• 10:05
  And what you do is you put in what you're currently spending on health insurance, and then it will show you how much you could be saving per month. It works for individuals, groups, and businesses. And then when you see how much you're gonna save, go ahead and give them a call. They will spend as much time on the phone with you as you need. Just yesterday, a sweet couple called and the person spent an hour on the phone with them.
• 10:27
  So, yeah, definitely something to look into. We are so glad that we made the change. Okay. So now let's get into the nitty gritty of me spilling the tea on my own life. If you're new here, you may not know who I am.
• 10:38
  Hi. I'm Kristi Faith. I've been homeschooling and working in education for over twenty years. I've taught teachers, coached parents, worked with kids, read thousands of IEPs. I'm also the author of Homeschool Rising, which you can find on Amazon.
• 10:52
  And I also started Thrive Homeschool Community. It's the crown jewel of what we do around here. It's a proven framework with expert access and real community support. In Thrive, moms tell me all of the time that they cannot imagine homeschooling without Thrive Homeschool Community. Now we don't keep it open year round.
• 11:09
  It only opens a couple of times a year, and spots are limited when we do. So if you want in, I'll put a link in the show notes. Get on the wait list cause we open that early and that will guarantee your spot. But whether you join or not, I'm here for you and I'm so happy that you're here today. Alright.
• 11:24
  Let's get to it. Okay. Back to my story. So where do I even start with this? I think I need to take you briefly to the beginning back to when we first found this particular church and fell in love with it.
• 11:36
  Because I think that you need to understand how all in we were and how much we loved it and how good it felt at first. Because that's what makes leaving so hard. Right? If it was absolutely toxic from day one, you'd just leave, but it's never that simple. Right?
• 11:51
  Something starts out feeling like home, like you finally found your people, and then slowly, so slowly, you don't even see happening, things shift. And by the time you realize something's wrong here, you're in so deep that leaving feels impossible. That was us. So let me paint you a picture of what our life looked like at this church. When I say that we were all in, I mean all in.
• 12:15
  Being a part of this church, it was our whole lives. And the reason why it was our whole lives is because we were new to Denver. We had just moved. We didn't have any friends here yet. There was a couple that we knew in LA who went to this church and they absolutely raved about it.
• 12:28
  So we kinda knew even before we moved here to Denver that we were going to be going to that church probably because we really liked them. And then when we came and we visited, we just immediately got plugged in. We started to volunteer. We got in leadership, the whole thing. It was a really beautiful experience unlike anything we had felt before.
• 12:46
  It felt like we lived in a Hallmark movie. Now keep in mind, we were from a big city. City churches are a lot different. This just felt a little bit more down home and intimate. The pastor was and still is a genuinely amazing human being, an incredible teacher, a great guy.
• 13:01
  I very much respect him. He was problem. Our entire social calendar revolved around this place. Sunday mornings, Wednesday nights, our kids' friends were kids from the church. Our couple friends where we would go out to dinners with church.
• 13:15
  And we weren't just involved. We were also kind of in that popular crowd. And I know how this sounds, and I almost cut this part out, but I think it's important to say because it's just true. We were invited to everything. We were in kind of the inner circles.
• 13:30
  And personally, I have to be very careful when I enter new communities because I can easily find myself in the popular crowd. And historically, when I look back on my life, I've come to realize I don't really like the people there. I've gone down some deep rabbit holes on popularity and the psychology of status seeking, and let's just say there are patterns and not good ones. But that's another Oprah. And I'm a lot of things, but I'm not a status seeker.
• 13:56
  But I do think that I'm pretty friendly and well spoken, and I try to make people enjoy being around me because I want people to feel better when they're around me. So I do often find myself being accepted in kind of any and all circles. I'm one of those types. I've been that way since high school. I can kinda just be anywhere.
• 14:15
  But my point is, it wasn't just a church that we attended. This was our entire lives, our family, our roots, the community that we thought we would raise our kids in for the next twenty years. We literally thought our kids would marry the other kids there. This was going to be our forever church. And for a while, it really felt like it could be.
• 14:35
  But slowly and so slowly, I didn't really see it at first. I started to notice things. There was this underlying belief there that this church was the one that was doing church right, the biblical way. And with that, a belief that most other churches in the area weren't really doing things right. They had compromised.
• 14:55
  We have quite a few, what you would call mega churches in our area, and those always got really big eye rolls for having watered down gospels or pastors that just basically give self help sermons. I mean, people at this church would even look down on people who went to some of those mega churches in the area. Like, they're not really Christians or something. It was it was kinda weird. I did notice that right off the bat, that kind of this church was the faithful one in the area.
• 15:20
  And this was something kinda new to me too. The cancel culture at this church was intense. Like, you know that show, The Chosen? Of course, you know the show, The Chosen. Canceled.
• 15:30
  Harry Potter, oh, man. Canceled. Some of those famous Christian female leaders, I don't know if this one is specific, but like a Beth Moore, for example, would get canceled for some reason. This is such a funny story. I remember asking a friend, and I can't tell you who because it would totally reveal who this person is.
• 15:48
  I asked her if she had a copy of Harry Potter that I could borrow, like, secretly because I wanted to read it myself to decide if I wanted my kids to read it. And she did lend it to me, but we kinda kept it on the down low. And this was a woman whose husband was in leadership. We kinda had to hide it. That's how intense it was.
• 16:03
  And it wasn't always coming from leadership. I wanna be very careful because this made things kinda harder to pin down. A lot of this was coming from strong groups within the church. And sadly, a lot of it was the homeschoolers. Like, someone would mention a resource, and then suddenly another mom would say, oh, they're awful.
• 16:22
  I canceled my membership. Or, oh, I will not shop there anymore. Or regarding someone, a a female leader, you know, nationally, oh, she's leading people astray. Those are the types of things that I would hear. And this started to bother me because I've always been a researcher.
• 16:38
  You know that I have a background. I'm a trained historian. I have a graduate degree in history. I think research is really valuable even if you don't agree with everything that that particular author or researcher says. You know, like, for example, Brene Brown.
• 16:51
  I think her research on shame and vulnerability is stellar, and Christians have a lot to learn from her. Or doctor Ross Green's parenting work. Man, mind blowing. I personally disagree with the entire premise of his book. I kid you not.
• 17:06
  But his research on behavior and why we see concerning behaviors in kids, really solid. But that type of thing wasn't really welcome in this environment. It was kind of an all or nothing place. Maybe you would label it as, like, anti intellectualism, but I don't even know if that's right word. But if someone believed the wrong thing, everything they said was now just contaminated, and that person was dangerous.
• 17:26
  And if you mentioned the wrong person or recommended the wrong research, you were kinda just uninformed and needed to be corrected, or you were just ignorant or or something. It was kinda weird. There was a lot of panicked pearl clutching at that church. Like, did you know what this person said on this podcast? Or did you hear that they are going woke?
• 17:45
  Or did you know that this person didn't take a stand on blank? I mean, just fill in the blank. It was always something. And I'm sure you know where this is going right now. As my social media platform was growing and fast, and I was becoming kind of a public figure in the homeschooling space, I knew I knew it was just a matter of time before I said something that someone didn't like.
• 18:09
  Because there was always someone that they were upset with. Always. And I knew my turn was coming, and boy did it ever. And then there was the leadership structure. Now I actually agree with biblical eldership in principle, and that's what this church was, and they really love the fact that they could call themselves a biblical eldership church.
• 18:27
  I mean, don't know their exact phrasing, but that kinda was it. But nepotism, that's when positions of power go to family members rather than the most qualified people. Yeah. Problem. And let me tell you, we got so spooked from this.
• 18:39
  We had never been in a situation where nepotism was a problem with church leadership before. Come to realize, it actually is kind of a big problem, a common problem. But Scott and I got so spooked whenever we would wanna try out a new church. The one of the first things that we would do is go to the website and go to the leadership page of the website and look at last names and see how many were the same. And, you know, that wouldn't be able to weed out if, like, someone was a brother-in-law or whatever, but still, we didn't visit some churches because we saw this.
• 19:08
  And nepotism, that's not biblical ownership. That's keeping power in a closed circle. And here's the thing. I think that they really believe that they were protecting something important, the integrity of the church. And not every single person was related, but it was there.
• 19:23
  And kind of a culture of being afraid of outsiders where you can only trust your own inner circle, you're not protecting truth at that point. You're protecting control. Now that's gonna rub a lot of people the wrong way. I'll live with it. But anyway, back to the after church, my daughter was being really honest with me, and we were kind of in a group of people, and she was struggling with envy.
• 19:45
  She was little, and it was someone else's birthday, and she was just processing something with me out loud, you know, because she feels safe around me, and she was being real with her feelings. But this one mom overheard her, and oh my, she looked at me like I was the worst parent in the world for not immediately punishing my daughter for expressing her feelings of envy. I'm not kidding. My child was feeling safe with me and expressing real emotion and wanting help, and it was viewed as a parenting failure. That moment really stayed with me.
• 20:16
  And then this other time, I was in a social situation. I think I cut this part out of the episode, but I'm gonna add it back in, ladies. I was in a social situation, and this one woman said, I can tell every single child at this church who is not s word. And you know what s word I'm talking about. I don't want this episode to get banned or anything.
• 20:33
  But in terms of corporal punishment in parenting, that's what she was talking about. And I was like, wow. That says a lot more about you than anybody else. And there also was this subtle message about women, especially strong, educated, capable women. And this one was a little bit tricky to navigate, but it was still there.
• 20:52
  I remember one time I was expressing another social situation. We had somebody over to our house, actually a group of people, and I was expressing how Scott and I had really agonized over a curriculum choice for weeks, and we were kinda researching together and talking it through. And then we I was just telling the story about how we finally made the decision together and landed on this particular curriculum. And when I was talking to this other homeschool mom, someone who literally knew my background and what I used to do for a living and what I do now, and she said something along the lines of, oh, just isn't it wonderful when our husbands just know the right decisions? And I was like, excuse me?
• 21:29
  It wasn't exactly overt enough to actually call her out in the moment. I kinda was taken back by it. It's like one of those things where if you hear the comment coming from a different person wouldn't come out that way, but because I knew her life and their beliefs and all of that, I kinda knew that it was loaded in that way. That type of thing was just constant, kind of like this underlying message that women, especially capable, educated, strong women should not outshine their husbands, that they need to stay small and to defer and not be too much to make it clear that their husband was the head. I can only think of one family at the church where the wife was the breadwinner.
• 22:10
  And I think because a lot of people just felt uncomfortable if the woman was the breadwinner. Now I'm not making any statements about breadwinning and all of that. I'm just trying to explain to you kind of this underlying culture. Now regardless of my theological stand on male headship, which I do have one, by the way, that I'm just not gonna share right now because it's not the point. Here's what I do wanna say about it.
• 22:31
  Male headship is not patriarchy, and we got some problems in the church today. And I know this is gonna ruffle some feathers. I don't just be feathered. I don't know. Or tart and feather me.
• 22:40
  I can handle it. And then came a moment that should have been a five alarm fire for us. Oh my goodness. Okay. So an elder was teaching this class one time and told the people there, like, publicly.
• 22:53
  There were probably, 30 or to 50 people in this class, and he said, don't read this particular book. I read it already. I read it for you, and you don't need to read it yourselves. Let that sink in for a second. I read it for you.
• 23:07
  You shouldn't read it. And I don't have a tape recorder. I don't remember the exact words. But I do remember that there were several people after who were like, wait. Did we just hear what we just heard?
• 23:17
  So I'm not making things up. And, actually, we did bring that to the pastor that one time. But here's the thing about that. That's culty. There is no other word for it.
• 23:26
  When someone tells you not to make your own decisions or form your own thoughts, to not read and discern for yourself, to just trust them to tell you what the book says and what to think, that is cult behavior. And, honestly, that should have been it. That was close to the end. That should have been the moment that we said, alright. We're done.
• 23:44
  But we didn't leave still. We stayed. What? Because I wanna be a loyal person, and we had invested so much there. And we really believe that this was the best, most biblically sound church in the area.
• 23:58
  And so I was kinda drinking some of the Kool Aid at the time too, and that all the other churches weren't good, and I just have to stay because this is the best option we have. So not true, by the way. But that was part of the culture, that unspoken but very real message that we were kinda the only faithful church around, and that also is pretty cultish. Now does everyone at this church believe that? No.
• 24:19
  But do enough? Yeah. And then and you're like, oh, no. Christy, why? You're so nuts.
• 24:24
  Why did you not even leave? Then there were the child safety concerns. I know what you're thinking right now. Actually, when I'm saying this out loud, it's like, what, Christy? Oh my goodness.
• 24:34
  But we saw some concerning things that were happening with child safety in the church, and we spoke up, and we brought it to leadership. And at first, they acted very concerned. But, ultimately, instead of making changes that really every church should have made fundamentally if these issues existed, we became the problem. Look at that. I felt like kinda overnight, we kinda became a little bit divisive or, like, causing trouble, viewed that way, I mean, not submitting to leadership maybe.
• 25:05
  And there were certain people who we knew and had evidence should not be working with children. This is what we brought to their attention. And the leadership let them do it anyway under supervision. If you're listening, you're not seeing my air quotes right now, and you're I hope you're hearing the sarcasm. But, yeah, hard no.
• 25:24
  When you speak up about protecting children and you become the enemy or they dismiss you and your concern, that is not okay, and that is not church leadership. That's complicity. If something happens. I don't know if anything has ever happened, but I'm just saying if something happens, that's complicity. Yeah.
• 25:42
  You heard that right, and I can say it louder too. So, obviously, we stopped sending our kids to those particular activities immediately. And when we did send them to an activity, we were there. We protected our kids and, honestly, other kids too, but we still stayed at the church. Can you believe that?
• 25:57
  This is so embarrassing. Okay. We gotta go to a quick break, but when we come back, I'm gonna tell you about a business partnership that became an absolute nightmare and how trying to leave one toxic relationship forced us to blow up our entire lives. It's gonna get juicy, so stick with me. And don't fast forward the commercials.
• 26:14
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• 26:39
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• 27:21
  To find out how BJU Press Homeschool can come alongside you in your homeschooling goals too, visit bjupresshomeschool.com or click the link in the show notes. Alright. I'm so glad that you're still with me. Quick pause before we continue because I have to ask you for your help. This is like a little pause from the show for a second, just me talking directly to you about something else.
• 27:41
  This show is completely free to listen to, but it does take a lot of real work and resources to create this show every single week. And I know you know that. There's production costs, there's editing, there's all sorts of things. But we do it because we believe in what we're doing here. We're building a community of moms who are taking back the hearts and minds of their kids, and it's so cool.
• 28:02
  And I'm so happy that all of you are listening. So if this episode today is landing for you, if you feel like you're getting any help whatsoever from what I am saying today, would you do me a favor and engage in the show in some way that could be giving me all of the stars if I deserve it, leaving a comment, asking me a question, saving it for later, sending this to a friend who's like, girl, you need to hear this. Right? Or subscribe to the show. Just any type of engagement because it's those little robots behind the screen that are triggered when we do that, and this show can get in front of more eyeballs when we do that.
• 28:34
  And it's just a little thing that you can do right now as I'm talking, but it really truly changes everything. Because I know there's a mom out there who is looking for exactly this type of show or maybe needs this particular episode today. So I just wanna thank you ahead of time for doing that, and we read every single comment. Okay. So thank you so much.
• 28:52
  As promised, I'm gonna tell you that I just kinda went into kinda the church culture, and that was a part of the story, but an equal part of the story was that I was also in a pretty toxic friend group at the church. So let's go there for a second. And sadly, a lot of these were homeschool families. Right? Fellow church members, a lot of them were wives of men in leadership.
• 29:15
  Women were not in leadership at this church, by the way. On the surface, it looked like friendship, like a community, but it was like living in a Bravo show too. I remember this in particular. There were two moms who were friends. They were homeschoolers, and both of their kids did speech and debate together.
• 29:30
  But when one of the moms was not around the other mom, the talk was just super competitive about each other, comparing their kids, cutting each other down. But like, in a way that you can't exactly call gossip, it's very weird. It's very subtle, but it's also pretty unhealthy. And one time, one of the moms confessed to me that she actually wrote her kids speech and debate arguments so that they could win. Like, yuck.
• 29:52
  Right? Anyway, they're probably still friends. But my point is this church kinda had that cancel culture. It had a lot of gossip. It had constant judgment about who was parenting right, who was doing homeschooling right, who was letting their kids do this, that, or the other.
• 30:08
  Oh, that family is a public school family. But you know what I remember the most? And hear me with this because I think this is a really big takeaway, and it's how I've changed how I do friendship now. It was how I felt about myself after being around these people and in those social situations, especially with the popular crowd. And, I have my thoughts on popular crowds and popular people.
• 30:31
  I generally find that I don't love who those people are. But I'd walk away from conversations with my chest tight. I would be replaying in my head everything that I said. I would worry that I said the wrong thing. Worried that my kid had done something wrong in front of them, and now they were judging my parenting.
• 30:49
  Worried that they were talking about me and what they were saying, because that's the way they talked about everybody else. I was becoming a public figure on social media and making public content, and I would be thinking in my head, and I shouldn't ever care, and I don't care now. But, oh my goodness, what if they see this particular thing? What are they gonna think? I've totally grown out of that.
• 31:08
  Thanks to therapy. Yay. But, yeah, that's where I was at the time. My chest is even tightening a little bit right now, just remembering it. And man, am I thankful?
• 31:17
  Ugh. So thankful. Yeah. I kinda lost myself for a hot minute there. That time feels like a cloud.
• 31:23
  And in the midst of all this, when we already weren't super happy, but couldn't really pinpoint or name what was going on, we had this really close family friend, the whole family. We were like, our two families were really good friends. They were fellow homeschoolers. Their kids were absolutely wonderful. Still probably are truly sweet, sweet kids.
• 31:42
  And we decided, wait for it, to go into business with them. I know. You can't make this stuff up. Right? And we thought it was the best idea in the world until the first day.
• 31:52
  I knew. I knew by behavior that I saw on day one that it was a mistake. Day one, I knew. Man, do I kick myself about this. And as you would expect, pretty quickly, no surprise to anyone around me but us, it became clear that the partnership wasn't working.
• 32:11
  And for all parties, I don't think anybody was happy. My sister could see it. My therapist could see it. My mentor at the time who actually is now one of the mentors in Thrive Homeschool Community, she could see it. She knew the signs.
• 32:23
  They all tried to warn me. This person is showing narcissistic tendencies. This couple seems dangerous. But the crazy thing is is that no one in the church saw it, and so we really couldn't see it either. I just thought other people didn't understand our relationship.
• 32:38
  You know? Like, oh, you don't understand. No. They're great. It's gonna be fine.
• 32:42
  And the thing is is I hadn't experienced that particular type of narcissistic behavior before. It's kind of a more covert type. I didn't really have a framework for it to understand what was happening. And when we finally realized that we needed out, when we wanted to part ways amicably and professionally and just kinda be done, that's when things got really bad. And if you know me, you know that I have ran businesses for my entire professional career since my early twenties.
• 33:10
  And so I didn't really have an experience of having a negative partnership like this before. Even though I was an experienced businesswoman, this was brand new. And the whole time, we were trying to figure out how to exit the business. We were hoping that leaving the business didn't mean leaving the church, but we knew that things were kinda intertwined and it was gonna get complicated. And we prayed about it for a long time because we knew by the behaviors that we were seeing that if the business breakup went badly and we were starting to see some true colors and some concerning things, that it could very well go in a bad direction.
• 33:44
  Maybe a therapist would say hit one of those narcissistic wounds. If this person or this couple got angry, the narrative about us was gonna be pretty bad. You see, this person had been at the church for years. They had raised their family there. They had influence.
• 33:58
  They had relationships. They were in leadership. They definitely had the power to shape how people saw us. And if you know anything about narcissistic behavior, protecting the image is everything. We had only been there for about four years, and that seems like a long time.
• 34:13
  But in this church, for people that raised generations and generations of kids there and married each other and all of that, we were the new outsiders. So before we even had the breakup conversation, we did know what possibly could be at stake, and we had prepared for the worst, but we also hoped for the best. We wanted to do this in a way where we could all laugh years from now, like, at a party saying, oh, remember that one time where we tried to go into business together and that just didn't work, you know, and go, which that's totally something that I would be able to do. But, yeah, not the case. What we got, unfortunately, was the typical narcissistic bloodbath.
• 34:52
  And our only choice, and we knew it that very afternoon, was to leave the battlefield. We tried to end it cleanly. We had consulted professionals, and we knew a generous buyout number. We offered that number, but it turned into ugliness, accusations, blame. We had to get multiple lawyers involved to advise us, and it dragged on a long time.
• 35:13
  And Scott protected me from so much of it. He got so many false accusations and mean emails. He is a saint. Let me tell you that man is a saint. He got so beat up.
• 35:24
  Thanks to those lawyers who helped us keep emotions out of it. When we were attacked, we didn't attack back, and I'm really proud of us for that. But emotionally, I had to fight and hard to not go to a place of hurt, anger, and bitterness. During that whole time, I read this little orange book. I'll put it in the show notes, and I would read it every single day.
• 35:46
  This book is called a little book about a big problem, and it's about anger. And I knew that if I let anger take hold, that it would be a massive mistake, and it would make things even worse. So I read that little book as a devotional every day. I knew I had to guard my heart and mind against bitterness and anger that could have so easily, honestly, been justified. But you know what?
• 36:09
  We just wanted out. We just needed to be free. And getting all emotional about it would only just slow down that process. But at the time, it felt like there were tentacles and grips on me, and that this person just wouldn't let go. It was it was kind of intense.
• 36:24
  We knew we knew that when we finally got out of this and disappeared from the church, that they were going to tell their version of the story and that we wouldn't be there to defend ourselves. I wanna ask you right now, and I want you to share in the comments, have you ever had to leave a situation where you knew there was going to be false talk about you and you just decided not to defend yourself. I'd love to hear your story. But in leaving, we knew that when we finally got out of this and left the church that they were going to tell their version of the story and that we wouldn't be there to defend ourselves. That part was really hard for me because I really wanted to defend our honor and my husband's honor to tell the truth, to make sure people know what actually happened.
• 37:10
  But we also knew that staying and fighting for that would keep us trapped. It would keep us engaged with these people, with the situation, and with the whole toxic system, and we just needed to be free. We needed to be free more than we needed to prove that we were right, and we were scared. Me in particular, I didn't wanna start over again. And even though we had a beautiful life here in Denver, there were there was a season there where I regretted moving here.
• 37:34
  I felt like that church was the one good thing that we had about being here. And that made the whole thing worth it, and we had such a beautiful community that we lost. The funny thing is, I bet the people involved, if they're listening to this show, they're probably thinking right now, and that's what you guys deserved, Scott and Christy. Right? So anyway but I've worked through that.
• 37:53
  But my point is is that that church community is a large part of what made Denver home, and now we were about to blow all of that up. So everything was just imploding at once. You know? We had this business partner nightmare. We had friend group toxicity.
• 38:08
  My platform was currently growing, and I was feeling like there was a target on my back. We already pulled our kids from the unsafe activities at the church, but we were still showing up every Sunday trying to make it all work. And we realized staying would destroy us. That day that we asked for the business buyout, that actually never it never ended up going down that way. Sadly, that would have been great.
• 38:27
  We never went back to that church. We just couldn't. It was too hard. So here we were. No church, no community, our kids asking us questions.
• 38:36
  At first, we didn't know how to answer, and honestly, we were terrified. But that very first Sunday after we had made the decision to leave, we went and visited another church in the area, kind of a larger church, and both Scott and I independently, we both had this completely spiritual experience at this place. This overwhelming sense of relief, of rightness. We realized what had been missing. And for the first time in years, we felt light.
• 39:02
  And I think that's what legalism does. It's just such a heavy weight because at that other church, we could breathe for a hot minute. We didn't have to perform. We didn't have to watch what we said. We didn't have to worry about who was watching and who was gonna gossip after.
• 39:15
  Nobody was keeping score. Nobody cared if my kid wiggled during the sermon or if I accidentally recommended the wrong resource or if I said something that could be misconstrued. The worship just felt different. The teaching felt different, and the people felt different. Now, this church didn't end up being our forever church.
• 39:32
  We didn't stay there long term. But boy, was it the perfect place at the time to kind of hide and heal for a while. We just needed to catch our breath and think about what we wanted for the future, and we certainly didn't wanna dive into something like we had dove into that. And we certainly didn't wanna dive into something fast. We had already done that with the other church.
• 39:50
  But, anyway, that very first Sunday, we knew we had made the right choice in leaving. Do we know exactly what our future was gonna look like? No. But there was a peace. And I even ask Scott every once in a while, are you still glad that we left?
• 40:04
  And he goes, I am so glad we left. But that moment of clarity, that didn't make what came next easier because we were all alone. We had blown up our lives. We were in this new city. You have to remember our entire social circles are wrapped up in this particular church community.
• 40:18
  Our kids all of a sudden had no friends. We had no birthday party invitations, like, overnight. We had every reason to believe that people were kinda spreading lies about us. And the reason why I do know that is because at this particular church, whenever a family would leave, and this was pretty widespread, there was always talk about how that family did things wrong. So, basically, it was victim blaming.
• 40:40
  I now know the word for that. That's victim blaming. But it was like if this family left, it was like, oh, it's because this person left and they said it was because they couldn't find community. Well, they never went to home groups. You know, it was always the family that left that was blamed.
• 40:52
  There was never internal introspection on, wait a minute. Are there some things that we need to change here? Should we look at this deeper? None of that ever. And that was pretty widespread.
• 41:03
  Now not from the pastor. I never heard that from him, but pretty much everybody else I did. When someone left the church, it was they were the problem. I'm so glad they left. God's protecting our church family.
• 41:14
  It was kind of a weird I remember being in a situation at a party thinking, oh my goodness. This is a little bit weird that this family left unhappy, and everyone here is blaming that family. And then they're talking about how the Lord just really protects our church and moves families out that need to go out in order to protect us, and it just felt really ick at the time. So, of course, it's been a while now since we've left, and we've had time to process, a lot of time to heal. I've been in therapy myself, and we can now reflect on what that season taught us.
• 41:46
  And, honestly, some of the biggest validation has come unexpectedly from our son. He's now in high school, and he said something to me about a year ago that really warmed my heart, and it validated a lot. We were at a homeschool conference that I was speaking at, and he had just met a couple of the moms from Thrive, some founding members who are now my friends. And he talked to us later, and he said, mom, you've really up leveled your friend group. These people are amazing, and they're such a higher quality person.
• 42:17
  And he has said it several times since because I'm not in friend groups who gossip anymore. I don't do the dog eat dog thing. Oh, and here's one thing that I wanna mention about being in a toxic friend group is I carry a lot of guilt and shame because I think back at some things I said and how I behaved when I kind of stooped to that level, and I'm not proud of who I was there. You know how you can walk into environments and you're like, man, that person kinda brings out the worst in me. Not that I'm putting responsibility on that other person.
• 42:47
  Our actions and our words are always our responsibility. But at the same time, we can put ourselves in environments where we were lifted up, and we can put ourselves in environments where we are torn down. And I definitely didn't like myself that much and how I behaved back then in looking back, and it's completely changed how I choose friendships. And when we finally left and that isolation that we knew was gonna come when it hit after all of that, Questions started to come when I started to process and really do some internal work. Like, am I not likable?
• 43:17
  What did I say wrong? Why couldn't I make this business partnership work? Can I not keep friends? What should I have done differently? Why did this have to end so catastrophically?
• 43:28
  Am I the problem? Yes. You heard that right. I started gaslighting myself. Thank goodness for my therapist who wouldn't allow me to do it.
• 43:34
  Yes. She had me take responsibility, but also gaslighting yourself is not healthy either. Because here's what I've learned. When something painful happens, our brains try to find what we did wrong so that we can fix it and make sure it never happens again. And it's a coping mechanism.
• 43:48
  Did I say things that I wish I didn't say? Of course. I still do and live to regret it even on this show. But in a healthy community, being imperfect doesn't make you an enemy. There's room for growth.
• 44:00
  There's room for apologies. There's room for grace. And that season of isolation after we left, that loneliness where really all we had was each other for a while, I look back on that time now as so precious because it taught us to rely on the Lord in a way that we never had before. We didn't know what our future church home was going to look like. We didn't know who our future homeschool friends were gonna be.
• 44:24
  There was a lot of unknowns, and when you live in that unknown, you have to cling to what is known, and that is God and his word and his promises. Because when you don't have community propping you up and when you can't lean on friendships or church programs or the comfort of belonging somewhere, you learn what it means to be dependent on him, just him. And now I know because in private circles, I'm very open about this. I even have one talk when I go to conferences. It's my friendship talk where I discuss this.
• 44:52
  I now know that our experience isn't uncommon. Did you know that research shows that thirty four percent of adults have experienced religious trauma, harm in the name of faith? Now I know my situation is a lot different. Maybe it doesn't even fit in that category, but I thought that statistic was really important to share today if that's you. You're not alone.
• 45:10
  One in three people get really hurt. So please don't think that you're overreacting or that you're gaslighting yourself. If you're starting to have to explain away a lot of things, maybe something's up. Maybe what's happening is real. Maybe you're in a toxic situation right now, whether it's in a church group, a friend group, a homeschool community.
• 45:27
  Who knows? And listen, and I need to say this loud and clear, church is not the problem. We didn't leave the church. We left a church. And we also don't expect people to be perfect, and we don't expect churches to be perfect.
• 45:40
  Hurt people hurt people. And I think that's what I was in. I was in some toxicity, and there were wounded people who were operating out of their own pain and creating systems that felt safe to them. Never once did we question God or the goodness of God in that situation. And now years later, we have a church home that we absolutely love.
• 46:02
  Now do I get triggered sometimes? You betcha. Do I watch for red flags? Do I sometimes wait for the next shooter drop? I hate to admit it, but yes.
• 46:11
  But I also don't wanna be blind again. So in trusting God, I kinda hold that tension. And here's the thing. If a few situations had been different there, could we have stayed? Maybe.
• 46:21
  Could we have been a part of making that environment healthier? Maybe. Would I have loved being a part of that redemption? Yeah. I really would have.
• 46:29
  But that's not what happened. That wasn't the story that God had for us, and we've had to make peace with it. Alright. I've saved the best for last. When we come back, we're wrapping this up, and I'm sharing a quote that captures this entire journey.
• 46:42
  And trust me, it's gonna hit home. Don't go anywhere. Before we continue, I wanna share with you a program that's been a game changer for our homeschool. At our center, we instructed and helped kids through pretty much every math program on the market and know firsthand just how important a solid math foundation is for our kids' futures. As a career educator with high standards, finding the right program that checked all the boxes felt like too tall of an order until one day I tried CTC Math.
• 47:08
  CTC Math is an online math curriculum for k to 12 students with motivating interactive lessons that allow kids to learn at their own pace. It does all the teaching and grading so you don't have to, and their adaptive lessons adjust so your child is progressing confidently. With CTC Math, your child is getting a top notch education, and you just made your homeschool life easier. Visit ctcmath.com to start your free trial today or click the link in the show notes. Is your child struggling with attention, memory, reading, writing, or math?
• 47:36
  If you're experiencing this, you know how heart wrenching it is to watch them face these hurdles. You've poured love, time, and attention into their education, yet the struggle persists, leaving you feeling stuck and desperately searching for answers. You guys, I want you to know about LearningRx, a proven program designed to help your child's cognitive skills, enabling them to think faster, learn more easily, and perform at their best. I'm talking getting real long term help here with things like ADHD and dyslexia. LearningRx is backed by thirty five years of research, and their results are transformative.
• 48:09
  Use code HOME 50 for $50 off your cognitive skills assessment. Go to learningrx.com or click the link in the show notes. So if you're in a toxic church right now or friend group right now and you're gaslighting yourself, you're telling yourself to stay, to try harder, you're being hard on yourself, and you're questioning your own sanity. Here's what I wish someone had told me. The hardest part isn't the toxicity itself.
• 48:34
  It's that you lose the ability to trust your own perception. You start questioning everything. Am I being too sensitive? Am I causing division? Am I the problem?
• 48:43
  Because toxic communities make you doubt yourself before anyone even has to gaslight you directly. If you raise a concern and you're labeled as divisive, are you believing it? When you ask a question and get told you're stirring up trouble, what happens? You end up stop asking. When you bring up a valid concern and it's brushed under the rug, is that healthy?
• 49:03
  And here's the real insidious part because at least in our story and maybe in your story too, and this happens a lot in church communities, you want to be loyal. You want to work through hard things with people and be in relationship together, and that's not always easy. And actually, that's a really good thing. Community can be hard, and we can all grow together. And that kind of creates a pressure to stay often longer than we should.
• 49:27
  I know because that was us. So here's the permission I'm giving you that I didn't give myself. Trust what you are seeing. Stop explaining away your concerns. Really ask the Lord if you're out of line for something because you might be.
• 49:39
  I don't know. Ask yourself how you feel after being with these people. Do I like who I am around them? Because you're unease, it might mean something. It might need further investigation.
• 49:49
  Now can I tell you whether to stay or leave? No. Absolutely not. And it's between you and God, and it's your particular situation that I don't know. But here's what I do know, that toxic communities replace our internal compass, and they replace it with their judgment.
• 50:03
  And a lot of us, we have to find our way back, and it's hard. So whatever you decide, my hope with today's show is that you at least can make that choice with your eyes open. Let's bring this home with our quote of the week, and here it is. Maturity is measured not by whether people understand our choices, but by whether we still need them to. Because that's really what this whole story is about, isn't it?
• 50:27
  Not whether someone got it understood or was able to see our side, not whether we can make them understand. At least for me, it's about if I could walk away without them needing to understand, without needing approval, without needing to be validated, being okay with being misunderstood. And do I have it all figured out? No. I mean, that's the point of this series.
• 50:46
  I'm still a work in progress, but I do know that I have grown, and life was really hard after it, but I'm thankful. So let me ask you. Have you ever stayed in a toxic environment too long? And I wanna hear what finally gave you the courage to leave. Or on the flip side, were you in a hard situation and you chose to stay and you were part of the redemption?
• 51:05
  I wanna hear that too. That would be so encouraging. Your experience might be exactly what someone else needs to hear right now. So ladies, please go and check those comments. And listen, if you're in the middle of this right now, let us know.
• 51:17
  You do know that we check every email. And I know this particular show isn't about homeschooling, but I have tons of great free resources for you. In fact, I'll put this in the show notes. I actually have a guide to picking a healthy co op. It's like I think it's called 15 questions to ask before joining a co op.
• 51:32
  I'll go ahead and put that in the show notes. And it's not just about emotional health of a co op, though it does include some of those screening questions. It's also logistically just how to help you make a wise choice because joining a co op community is a big decision. Okay. So next week, I am going to talk about why we walked away from authoritarian parenting.
• 51:51
  And, man, am I gonna go there? And, yes, we're gonna talk about how I feel about the s word, corporal punishment. Subscribe so you don't miss it. And if today's episode helped you at all, share it with another mom who might need to hear it because maybe she's sitting in church or in that friend group in that toxic environment, second guessing herself right now and being too hard on herself. And maybe you sharing this episode will be what finally helps her see her situation for what it is.
• 52:19
  And remember, you're not alone in this. Let me know what you think even if you think I'm wrong, and I'll see you next week.