Latest / The Daily Writer / Author Jenn Granneman on the Hidden Power of Highly Sensitive People

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Author Jenn Granneman on the Hidden Power of Highly Sensitive People · The Daily Writer

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for writing success.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: For more resources, including your free Daily Rider Starter Kit, visit DailyRiderLife.com.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: One of the most common things I come across when talking to writers is the frustration of being a creative, sensitive person, but yet wanting to build a successful business and doing all the things that that requires.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: And in some ways, that's the eternal question for creative people.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: How do you balance art and commerce?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a huge question that obviously we can't answer in just one episode, but I'm thrilled to bring you a conversation with somebody who can absolutely point us in the right direction.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Jen Graniman is the co-author, along with her co-writer Andre Solo, of the new book Sensitive The Hidden Power of the Highly Sensitive Person in a Loud, Fast, Too Much World.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: She's also the author of The Secret Lives of Introverts, a book that I highly recommend, particularly for anybody who identifies as a writer or as a creative person.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Jenna is the founder of the popular website Introvert Dear, and she's dedicated her life to writing about topics like sensitivity and introversion after she realized how difficult it was to navigate a world that favors extroversion and insensitivity.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: And she actually wrote her blog anonymously for almost two years because as an introvert, she had no desire to be in the spotlight.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: But today her mission is to empower introverts and sensitive people to embrace their innate strengths and to start seeing their nature as a good thing.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: She's been featured in the New York Times, CNBC, The Guardian, and more.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sensitive, her newest book, was named an Amazon editor's pick for best nonfiction.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe that was a great choice because the book is really, really good.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: In today's conversation, we dive into a bunch of topics from Sensitive.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Jen and I talk about the sensitive boost effect, the connection between being an introvert and a sensitive person, advice for people who are worn out by social media and Zoom calls, advice for sensitive people and introverts on building a business, and much, much, much more.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is a really heartwarming, heartfelt, encouraging, inspiring, and fascinating conversation.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I would throw in a bunch more adjectives if I could, but that probably will do it for now.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm trying to say is I learned a lot from Jen in this conversation, and I think you're going to be really encouraged and inspired as well.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: You can find out more about Jen, read her blog and grab all her social media links at introvertdear.com.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I also recommend that you check out her free quiz, which is available at sensitiverefuge.com.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's sensitiverefuge.com.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, there's links to all those items in the show notes.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Here's my conversation with the amazing Jen Graneman.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Jen, it's so good to have you here on the Daily Rider Podcast.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I didn't tell you this whenever we connected a little while back, but I actually have known about your blog for a long time and have really respected and admired it.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I forget how it was that I came across your stuff again.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, she would make a really fun guest.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I reached out and here we are.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate that.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Vicky.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's really nice to hear.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm excited to be here and talk to you.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, how long have you been doing your introvert deer blog?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's been a number of years, correct?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, well, we actually had our 10-year anniversary this year.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, right.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's kind of crazy to me.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know where all that time went.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, I started it uh about 10 years ago.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: I was teaching, which was a very extroverted job.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: I was living with an extroverted roommate, and I was dating a man who was very extroverted.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I had just learned about introversion and also high sensitivity.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: And those two things were really eye-opening for me.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I started this blog as a personal project, and I said I was writing about what it was like to be an introvert living in an extrovert's world.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: And to my surprise, people really connected with it.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't expecting that.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you've done a fantastic job.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, with the whole, and now I I know I'm kind of getting into like branding and marketing stuff, and sometimes I get annoyed by that stuff because there is a sense, and I wonder if you think this too, where you're kind of like, can't we just be writers?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, instead of always having to put the branding head on.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I know that's a part of it.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: But you've done like an incredible job building up this whole platform, you know, love or love or hate that terminology.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's really, really cool, and it's really exciting to see somebody have a concept that really resonates and then stick with it over the long term.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: And now you have all these cool things happening with it.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, and all from an introvert, which is even worse.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I I appreciate that.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think as introverts too, we just want our work to speak for itself.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we don't want to have to do the marketing or the networking.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: I I think a lot of times it feels like bragging for us introverts, and that's not a place that we feel comfortable.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, my I can I can say my comfort level with marketing has grown over the years.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: I did not want to do any of it at first, and I actually started the blog and wrote it anonymously for two years because I was just like, no, just keeping the spotlight.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: I have no desire to do this spotlight.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, you know, I I I can say that over the years my my comfort level has grown with that.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think you're a you're a wonderful example for people who, particularly introverted writers, who have a concept or an idea that they want to get out there.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And they they don't necessarily have to do all the crazy outfront marketing stuff.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: You can just write and let it build over time.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to do things that are comfortable for you and and not try to be somebody that you're not.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: I guess at the same time, it is important to push ourselves, and there are some marketing things that are really kind of required.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess it's just this constant tug of war, probably for us introverts when it comes to the marketing stuff.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: I I mean, I think that's kind of the beauty of being a writer as an introvert, because you know, you you get to just write something.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and when you after years perhaps of researching it and thinking about it, you get to write something and put it out there.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then it and then it's out there, right?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: It it's not you always on a stage or always behind a camera.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's your work is out there and it does get to speak for itself.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Totally, totally.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, love that.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: So let's dive into your brand new book, uh, which is called, of course, you know what the title of it is, but just for our listeners who are who are new to your new book, it's called Sensitive: The Hidden Power of the Highly Sensitive Person in a Loud, Fast, Too Much World, which is a great subtitle, by the way.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure that subtitle was workshopped a lot of times.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: It was, yes.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: But somehow you have, you know, as a ghostwriter and as an author myself, I'd I really love the whole art of titles and subtitles.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: And when I first saw your subtitle, it was like, they absolutely hit the nail on the head because these are all really emotional words that highly sensitive people in introverts really resonate with.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: So great job on that.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad to hear you say that.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I'm like, wow, this subtitle is a mouthful, but um, yeah, it it's it is.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: It it's what it's it's the message we want it to convey.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I do have some questions about the book.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: I have to ask, though, what is the I feel like this is kind of a dumb question that maybe maybe there's an obvious answer and I just don't know what it is.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you can ask me dumb questions.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: What is the connection?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're you're the expert here.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm uh I'm just the interview guy.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: What is the connection between introversion and sensitivity?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, like if you have somebody who's an introvert and you have a highly sensitive person, how much overlap is there between those things?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: I understand they're two distinct things, but what is the relationship between those two personalities or concepts?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great question.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that is not a dumb question at all.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually probably one of the most common questions that I get because I do write about both topics.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: And there is some overlap between the two, but the two are also very different in some ways.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: So the connection is that the majority of sensitive people are introverts.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: There's research out there that says that about 70% of sensitive people are also introverted.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, that leaves 30% who are extroverted.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we we probably all know that extroverted sensitive person, or maybe uh someone listening is one.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but an introverted sensitive person, you know, they're going to need more downtime.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: They might seem a little more reserved or in their inner world than an extroverted, sensitive person.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but the overlap is that sensitive people and introverts, they all need downtime, right?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you're an extrovert who's sensitive, you still need that downtime.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, really, everybody needs downtime, no matter who we're talking about.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but of course, introverts and sensitive people, they tend to need more of it.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, okay, so I've got three or four kind of questions that are swirling around in my mind here.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: One is what percentage of people are, would you say are introverted?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because the reason I'm asking this is I was in a group recently, and I said my impression was that more than half of the population generally would kind of self-identify as introverts.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: But then somebody pushed back and said, I don't think that's correct.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's more like half and half.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know, like for based on your experience, what would you say generally is the percentage of people who do identify as introverts on some level?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so the research puts the number anywhere between 30 and 50 percent.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think that really, yeah, the common consensus is more around 50%, but it but it's between 30 and 50 percent.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's just been a lot more awareness around introversion these last few years.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so I wonder if that is sort of making it seem like maybe there are more introverts out there than you know, than there really are.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: I can remember when I first started writing about this topic, people were like, introvert what?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what is that?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and again, that was 10 years ago.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: But um, you know, I recently had the experience of sitting in a coffee shop with my laptop while I was working on my blog.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: And there was uh two friends sitting next to me.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, people I didn't know, but they were friends with each other.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: And one of them was saying to the other one, yeah, I I'm an introvert, so I just sort of need some alone time and um, you know, just kind of prefer these one-on-one meetups.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I just thought, wow, like that that would have never happened 10 years ago.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, no you you wouldn't just sit in a coffee shop and talk about being an introvert and needing alone time.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: You people wouldn't be able to express that so clearly or confidently 10 years ago.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I just think there's sort of more awareness around the topic of introversion these days.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think you've been a big part of that.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really know of any other, and I'm sure there maybe there are, but I don't know of any other like people with a large platform or like a really popular blog that is just for introverts.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh I guess there are, but yours is the one that I've always known about, and I assume that's the case for a lot of people, probably.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's nice to hear.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: So let's dive into your book, uh Sensitive.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um first of all, what led you to write this book?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, of all the topics that you could have picked, you picked this one.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm curious, what was it about things that you've been thinking about the last few years or maybe experiences that you've had that led you to focus on this as your your follow-up book to your previous one?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, great question.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I I got to write a book about introverts.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: I get to blog about introverts still on a regular basis.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: And sensitivity has always been another part of my personal story.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: It has helped explain who I am in a way that introversion could not, because, you know, like like we said, there are some similarities between the traits, but there are also some important differences.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: So when I was writing about sensitivity, you know, back 10 years ago when I was also writing about introversion, I called writing about sensitivity my labor of love because I would write these articles about introversion, and I would also write them about sensitivity, and people would go, Oh, okay, yeah, I'm starting to understand what introversion is, or I've at least heard of that concept.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but then I would write about sensitivity and it would just kind of be crickets, right?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I just kept thinking, like, I just want to keep writing about this topic and bringing awareness to it because I think it's important and helpful and a useful way to think about ourselves.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so that's been in the back of my mind all these years, and getting to write a book about it and you know, with a major publisher and just having more visibility to the topic just felt like an awesome opportunity to finally be like, okay, yes, let's let's get high sensitivity out there.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: Let's like let's get it in the spotlight.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right, here's me being an introvert talking about being the spotlight, but right, like like let's get it in the public discourse.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to 10 years from now be sitting in a coffee shop and be able to sit next to someone and have them say, Yeah, I'm just kind of a sensitive person.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, here's what here's what I am and here's who I am.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I I'd love to change the conversation about sensitivity in the same way that I've helped change the conversation about introversion.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think it's easier for to to pitch these kinds of concepts to publishers than it was, say, like three years ago before before COVID?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think COVID really helps bring out more awareness of maybe uh I don't know, personality styles is the right word, but it seems like there's a lot more conversation about relationships and social dynamics and working from home versus not working from home and how people are wired.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, like when when you were talking with your publisher about this, do you feel like that it was easier to talk about this than it was maybe three or four years ago?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I think you're right.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: I I think there is a little bit different climate now.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I mean, it was the first time I I talked with a major publisher about this topic.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't have like another conversation pre-COVID that I could talk about necessarily.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I do think you're onto something there.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think COVID really made us, you know, reflect on ourselves and think about how much social time we needed, how much alone time we needed, how we fare okay, working from home or not working from home, and how that maybe can both energize us but also have some challenges to it.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I I I think this whole new post-COVID world is is definitely a part of that.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so too.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's I don't think it's ever gonna go back to whatever quote unquote normal was before that.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, as an introvert, I'm it was kind of funny.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, like when all the COVID stuff started, um, I was a college professor at the time and I started just working from home, and I was like, yes, you know, bad that there's a pandemic and people are dying and sick, of course, that's bad.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm like, I can totally work from home.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm super happy to be able to do this, I don't have to commute.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, my wife was going nuts because she was like, I feel like I'm cooped up at home.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: So uh it's just funny how different people kind of perceive perceive that whether it's like, yes, I get to stay home all the time.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is your wife oh, I don't get to go out and socialize.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right, yeah.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: So is your wife more of an extrovert?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say so.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: She's kind of a more of a mix, I would say.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um she definitely loves to I would say she's an introvert, but she also loves the socialization side of it, kind of within it has its limits, you know, going out and doing stuff and going places and having new adventures and and that type of thing.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that that was she really thrives on going to a place and talking with co-workers and interacting with humans and all that kind of stuff.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, yeah, I did a couple Zoom calls today.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm good.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let me just go off and read for 10 hours.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, no, I I understand that.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: I um I I was working from home before the pandemic started, and I just continued working from home.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: So no major change.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I think the difference is like I couldn't just occasionally go out and and hang out with a friend and get dinner or something like that.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: So um I found myself, I remember those first few weeks of the pandemic, just looking at my calendar and being like, oh my gosh, it's just empty.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's weird.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: It was a good feeling, but um, yeah, as it wore on, I have to admit, I I started to miss some of those connections.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it made me kind of reflect on well, I am a very introverted person, and I it doesn't take much socializing or hangout time for me to feel filled up in that way, but but I do need to see.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: I once got in trouble for my wife.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: This has been years ago.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: For uh we had a bunch of family over for Thanksgiving one year to our house, which was unusual because we we would normally go to their house.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: And um I was down in our basement playing guitar for a long time, and they were like, Where's Kent?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Where is he?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and that I kind of got in trouble for that.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I was like, hey, I'm I'm re I'm recuperating, I'm getting my batteries recharged, you know, like way too much noise in conversation.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds like something I would do, but like with a with a with someone's pet.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like the corner petting the dog.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: We need somebody to go get some extra ice.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let me go, please.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm begging, give me an errand to do.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's that is a hundred percent me.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Something that you talk about in your book, and I really love this this whole concept, is something that you term the sensitive boost effect.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm curious if you can explain what that is, because I don't want to sort of spoil what this is for people who haven't read your book yet.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: But what is that and how can people use this to excel more and achieve more under the right circumstances?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so the sensitive boost effect is the name we gave to this ability of sensitive people to draw more or benefit more from basic support.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: So research has found that, you know, sensitive people benefit more from simple things like self-care or talking to a therapist or just you know, journaling, or taking time to learn a new skill, all those basic things that we do to help support us.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: Sensitive people react more and respond more to their environment, so they respond more to the tough things in life, right?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, sensitive people might be more um more prone to trauma um when they go through a hardship, but they're also able to respond on a different level to those positive things.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, a positive relationship or um taking time to meditate in the morning or do yoga or something like that.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: So this is their ability to take basic supports and just springboard off of them and go further in life, which is an amazing ability, right?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, a lot of times we focus on the challenges of being a sensitive person, you know, feeling things deeply and feeling that pain in life.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but there's another side to it, which is all the good things in life.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, sensitive people can take those things and go even further.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's that's really profound.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a beautiful way of looking at that because I think sometimes we we look at the way that we're wired and whatever however we're wired, I think many of us tend to view uh those things as deficiencies, like, well, I can't do this, or I'm wired this way.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so that means I can't be successful as this person, or we compare ourselves, or whatever it is.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I love how you have taken this concept and said basically, hey, this is like your superpower.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: This can boost you like way further than maybe your competitors or people around you.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and I know the book is not all about competition, but but that is kind of a reality of what we do is we have people in our same ditch.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And here's a way you can like boost far beyond them, which I think is so cool.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: I love that concept.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I think it's one of the most amazing abilities of being a sensitive person, um, just to be able to go further with the good things in life and to you know, just to soak up every last benefit from life.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's amazing.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it's something we don't talk about enough with sensitivity.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: We'll get back to the conversation in just a moment, but first, a big thanks to today's sponsor, Vellum.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: For years, my go-to choice for a book formatting software has been Vellum.
• 20:57
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• 21:03
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• 21:12
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• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: You've only got to purchase it when you're ready to publish.
• 21:20
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• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: To download Vellum for free, visit trivellum.com slash daily.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's trivellum.com slash daily.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And now back to the conversation.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: How would somebody know?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and I know you go into this in a lot more depth in the book, and of course, I encourage people to grab a copy of it, but just kind of in a nutshell, how would somebody know if they are a sensitive person?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and we all have sensitivities, of course, but but in terms of what you're talking about, are there some kind of telltale signs or qualities that somebody would have that would generally put them in that sensitive person category?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: So when we talk about sensitivity, We're talking about a personality trait or a character trait.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, everybody is sensitive to some degree.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: We think about it as being on a continuum.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: So you can be very sensitive or highly sensitive, or more in the middle, or more on the far end of that, and then be considered a less sensitive person.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: So yes, we are all sensitive to some degree.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: There's a great checklist in our book to help you determine if you're a sensitive person.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: There's also a quiz on our website, sensitiverefuge.com.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, there are a number of characteristics that can point to someone being sensitive.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: One of those characteristics is that you feel emotions deeply, whether it's joy, whether it's happiness or sadness or pain or loss.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: Another characteristic is you take time to think things through.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Your brain reflects on information deeply.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: It takes in details from your surroundings and you process that information deeply.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of sensitive people don't even realize they're doing that deep processing because it's just so natural and automatic for them, right?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: So we're not necessarily talking about people sitting around just like thinking deep thoughts all the time, right?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: Thinking about the meaning of life.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: But sensitive people do do those things.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: But we're talking about a brain just that just naturally processes more, processes with more depth.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: Another sign of a sensitive person would be that you you notice details that other people might overlook.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe just a quick flash of emotion on a coworker's face that's there and then gone.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, I need a sensitive artist who could look at, you know, a paint color on someone's wall and just pick out all the different shades and tones of it.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I was just like, what?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I don't see that, you know.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: But he was trained in that way and he was also a very sensitive person.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so if he could see those little details, um, you know, another sign of a sensitive person is you do feel fatigued or overstimulated in a loud or busy environment.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so maybe you go out to the restaurants, restaurant with friends, but and maybe you enjoy yourself, but maybe you feel tired at the end of that event and need plenty of downtime to recharge.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, maybe you just feel pretty drained after a normal day at the office or a normal day at home with your kids, just because your mind is doing so much.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: Your mind and body are taking in so much and processing it all very deeply.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: So let me ask you this.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: What is I'm trying to figure out how to frame this question in a way that makes sense.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um if somebody is would characterize themselves as a as a highly sensitive person, what responsibility, and I'll put myself in this category, what responsibility do we have to kind of explain ourselves to people who don't share that characteristic?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: For example, you're out with a with a group of friends, most of them are extroverts.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they don't, they they're not really sensitive people.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, maybe there's a lot of brashness and loudness or loud music or or whatever the case might be.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: But we get exhausted easily in that kind of environment and we want to withdraw or we want to leave or take a break or something.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: How how do we successfully cope with that socially?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of people who are more brash or and or extroverted, they don't really understand that.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think it's possible for them to.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Do we have a responsibility to try and help people understand how we're wired?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Or do we not really have that responsibility and we just do our thing and let people feel whatever they want to feel about it or have whatever opinion they want to have about it?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, great question.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't think we ever have a responsibility to try to make someone understand something that we don't think they will understand.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: But with that said, that's a good point.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, of course, I would love if people were talking more about sensitivity on a regular basis, right?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: And um speaking up for themselves and advocating for themselves and just normalizing sensitivity.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I would say maybe it just depends on your comfort level in that situation.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: If you think that there's a way to talk about it, that the person might start to get a glimmer of understanding, do it, right?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because um I think that will just help to normalize sensitivity for everyone.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, there's something also to be said about just um not having to take on that burden, right?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, sometimes I will be really honest with people and just say, yeah, I just need some downtime right now.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just worn out, I can't do this.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: But there are other times when I, you know, just kind of keep my cards a little closer to my chest.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's I think either way is okay.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also as if you're a person who is who is really sensitive, or if you're an introvert, it gets kind of exhausting having to explain yourself to people.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: And there does come an element, and maybe this is just a function of getting older, where we just become, we just kind of get tired of having spank everybody in our lives happy, where you just decide, I'm just gonna do my thing, and if they don't understand it or don't accept it, that's really their problem.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm not saying we should be jerks or anything, but there is kind of a value to just letting people think whatever they're gonna think, and we just kind of do our thing.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: I I mean, I don't I don't think we have an obligation to make people around us happy, right?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that when we can do what honors ourselves, you know, it it's gonna kind of help us see who we even want to have in our life or not in our way.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if there are people who just completely do not understand your need for downtime at all, maybe those aren't necessarily the people you want to keep hanging around with, right?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, um, it's it's interesting.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: I've been going through kind of a new phase of my life where I've been dating again and making some new friends, and I've just been trying to keep in mind that, you know, I'm not gonna be for everyone and everyone won't be for me.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: And the best way to even determine that is to just be myself and to do what I need to do and to honor my own needs.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: And there are people who will get it, and then there will be people who won't.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's that's really it's a hard realization to look at your uh look at the relationships that that you have in life.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really hard to kind of admit to yourself that this isn't a relationship that I really want to continue investing in.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've got a yeah, I've got a friend who so I used to work, uh worked at a church years and years ago.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: It was a friend actually who was a member of that church.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: And we still see um I don't think he's listened to this podcast, so I don't even think he does I have a podcast, so I'm sort of going on a limb here.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: But he's like an extreme extrovert, really, really extreme extrovert.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so whenever we see them occasionally, it's like two or three hours of just like nonstop chatter.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I say it like two words, and it's really, really hard.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's so hard for me.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so and I think for people who are kind of in those situations, sometimes you just have to go, you know, it's okay if I don't continue to invest in those relationships that aren't really feeding me, and maybe they're part of kind of a past life and my life is going a new direction.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: But that takes the willingness to let go, doesn't it?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Which is really hard for us.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that can be really hard.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, you know, I I think especially as sensitive people, we have that heightened empathy.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so it can feel really bad to us to know that we're maybe disappointing someone or letting someone down, or just, you know, maybe they can tell that we're just not investing in the relationship as much as we used to.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it gets to a place where you're like, well, I feel bad when I'm around this person, but I feel bad about feeling bad.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't want to cut things off because now I feel guilty.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: And now you have like three layers of feeling bad.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's like this whole like it's this whole like collection of feeling badness.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, not at all.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: No, but I you know, I think there's also a point where you realize that, like you said, you feel bad around being around this person and it's strange to you.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I we're adults, we have busy lives, we only have so much time to give.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think when we're younger and we have more free time in our schedule, it's easier to maybe entertain some of those relationships like that.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, no, I I've gotten pretty, pretty ruthless as I've gotten older about just defending my time and just trying to only do things that are, you know, that they're that are good for me and healthy for me.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's I think there is there is something to admitting to ourselves that we really only have room in our lives for so many close relationships.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think those of us who are kind of wired to be more sensitive and introverted, um, I think maybe extroverts have they have a higher tolerance for a lot more relationships, but they don't go as deep.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to use the word superficial because that makes it sound negative.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not what I mean anyway.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I don't really want like 50 best friends.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: I want just like a small collection of people who they're gonna take the journey with me.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then I have a whole bunch of other people that I know through podcasts and business and clients and all that, but I don't really want like a ton of really close friends.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's bad.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I just I just don't have the bandwidth for it, right?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: I just mentally and and physically don't have the the energy to maintain tons of close connections.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this has been gosh, this has been such a great conversation.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: I and I want to respect your time.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do want to dive into just really quickly something really interesting that you're doing for writers, which is on your blog, introvertdear.com.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was sort of poking around your website a couple days ago, I noticed that you give writers an opportunity to write for your blog, which is really cool.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I love the way that you set it up to where basically they can either have a byline that has their links and they can promote promote themselves, or you pay them a small fee kind of as a as a thank you for writing.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I I've never seen anybody do that before.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that is such an ingenious way to set that up.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm wondering if you can if you can share how people write for your site, like what are the requirements, what's the process, um, anything at all that you can share about that, because that's a I think a really great model for inviting others to collaborate with you on your platform.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we are always looking for new submissions and new writers.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we there's uh a page on the what on introverteer.com that says write for us.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so you can see all the specifics there.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: I won't go into all the details, but yeah, you um we're looking for people who can write about being an introvert, write about what's working for them as an introvert, or write about the challenges they face as an introvert.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: We love personal stories that also share wisdom and practical advice and connect with other introverts, right?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because we're introverts, but we also need to connect with others and we need to know we're not alone in the things we struggle with.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it can be tough navigating life as an introvert in an extroverted world.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: So we're looking for people who can give good, unique, useful advice to other introverts.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, you write your article, we ask that it's at least 1,000 words, and um there's a form that you use so you can include your bio, your name, social media information, um, and then uh email it to us in a Google Doc and our both our editor and I take a look at those and make some edits to them.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: And um, yeah, we we just love to to publish good writing and writing that connects, connects with other introverts.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's really cool.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I love it.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm totally gonna rip off that idea.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm rebranding a bunch of my stuff, so I'm totally gonna rip that off.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean go for it, go for it.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, whatever you want to call it.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I um I wanted to give that option because, you know, when I was when I was first starting my blog, you know, I I was just looking for any way to, you know, kind of get some publicity, right?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Or or just get people looking at it.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I yeah, I I hope that it provides an opportunity for people to, you know, send send readers to their their websites or their uh passion projects or or their uh products or you know, whatever it might be.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's it's fantastic.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love how you've set that up and and you've made it so easy.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and thank you for not requiring people to go through like some big submission crazy platform, you know, unlike a lot of sites do.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um I actually used to work for one of those sites and it was it was really complicated.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: I have used those sites as well, and yes, they the let the layers of complication also annoyed me.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: I do understand why they use them though to an extent, because it kind of filters out the people who don't want to do the work of submission.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Which I I think there's some value to that, but um, I think simplicity is really good at the end of the day.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, that's what I like too.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, where can people find out all about your writing, the book, uh, all the cool stuff that you're doing?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, um, both my books, the one about introversion and sensitivity, are available wherever books are sold.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: You can find me on introvertdear.com, D-E-A-R, like you're writing a letter, not like the animal.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you'd be surprised.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: How often people get that or ask me that question.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you can find me personally on Instagram under my name, Jen Graneman.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, and we're in all the places.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: We're on all the social medias, and um, yeah, we're introverted deer, and also uh I am, you know, like I said, we're all over.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, here's uh what kind of one final again, a dumb question.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm the master of dumb questions.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: I have not thought any of your questions were dumb for the record.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm a big proponent of uh local bookstores as well.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, Amazon, I love Amazon too, but I love bookstores, whether it's Barnes and Noble, you know, chains or indie bookstores.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do you happen to know, and maybe maybe you don't know this, I don't know, but do you happen to know where in a typical Barnes and Noble your book would be found?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like what section would they put it in?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna go look for it because I have one like a half mile from my house.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: When I I visited a few Barnes and Noble's and other bookstores when my book first came out, and it was in like the new releases category.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I wanna say self-help or psychology at this point.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's probably been you know moved from the new releases to the more permanent collection, uh, if I could call it that.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I'm gonna say self-help or psychology.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm gonna go this week and vote on that.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'll I'll tell you what section it's in.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: If I I'll see if they have it in stock at our store.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, I'm always curious about that.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: I love local bookstores and um it's really fun to go in and see books by friends, and I'm like, hey, I know that person.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, no, I I love I love my local bookstore in St.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: Paul.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Jen, thank you again.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: This has been an absolute blast.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I just want to take a second before I close up shop here on this conversation, to just affirm that the work you're doing is really, really good stuff and it really makes a difference for people, especially introverted people, highly sensitive people, you know, groups of people who don't sometimes feel like they have a lot of advocates in the world.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you've done a really great service, not just for those people, but for everybody in helping raise awareness of these kinds of things.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: So keep up the great work.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're doing fantastic, and I appreciate all the ways that you're also serving writers by allowing them to contribute to your platform as well.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: So well done.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Good stuff.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: That that's so nice to hear.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: And this was such a lovely conversation for me, too.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Been a pleasure.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I hope you enjoyed that conversation just as much as I did.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: I want to encourage you to go out and grab a copy of Jen's new book, Sensitive.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's really, really good.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if you relate to some of the themes that we've talked about here in this conversation, you're really going to benefit from this book.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you go through life as a highly sensitive person, particularly if you're if you're a writer who's who's around a lot of sort of business-y types, many of whom you know move fast and can be sort of like hard-driving people and who are very goal-oriented and that sort of thing.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes when you're an introvert or a highly sensitive person functioning in a business environment, that can feel kind of overwhelming.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you just wonder, like, is there something wrong with me because I'm not like really wired that way, and et cetera, et cetera.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Or I don't like being at all the events and I don't like being on 85 Zoom calls every week and those kinds of things.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you relate to any of that, go grab the book.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's really, really good.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: And perhaps a good place to start would also be by checking out Jen's website, which is introvertdear.com.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: The site's been around a long time and it's really good and it's very popular.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's because it's meeting and need.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, my goodness.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh those of us who are introverts have already read the website probably, or we've read blog posts on the site.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and we go, yeah, I really, really relate to that.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I'd encourage you to check out Jen's free quiz, which I mentioned earlier.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: You can grab that by going to sensitiverefuge.com.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's sensitiverefuge.com.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, of course, big thanks to Jen for making time to be a guest on this episode today, and thanks to you for checking out this episode.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: I know there's a lot of podcasts you could be listening to, but the fact that you chose mine and that you've chosen this particular interview really does mean the world to me.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: So again, thank you so much, and I'll see you next time.