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It's All About The People with Danika Dreslin · Humanity Working

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's the pursuit of perfection over progress, right?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think that will serve us well in ambiguous environments.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: A couple of weeks back, Paul sat down with Danica Dresslin.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Danica is an HR leader who has worked in several large enterprises, including Pfizer, Weyerhauser, and others.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: She's got a really interesting perspective on what soft skills are needed to succeed in the workplace today and how work is continuing to evolve.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's a great discussion, and it's worth a listen.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think, you know, I had that understanding early on that my gosh, a career consists of many years.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so if I want a career that's going to carry me for decades, boy, it better be personally important to me.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so what's important to me?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, given my short little journey to that point, I'd been the fortunate recipient of great mentors who had given me a leg up and helped me kind of craft my path and wanted to do that for other people.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so my initial instinct was like, gosh, how can what are those opportunities where you can connect with people or a person and work with them to understand what are their goals, what are they trying to achieve given a set of circumstances?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: So in the case of human rights, right, you might be in circumstances you can't very well change that are oppressive, but what are the opportunities to make forward progress in a way that serves your purpose, allows you to have, you know, a meaningful employment in some way in connection with community?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: So just taking that a step further in the career, I eventually had the great opportunity to be in a support role for the Harvard Law School Human Rights Program and got to see very up close and personal the actual lives of a lot of those human rights activists.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I again thinking ahead to that long career path and maybe some of the practical needs, um, you know, I think I had a very deep reckoning with what is required, a lot of just personal and emotional sacrifice.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I have a lot of respect for the folks that I got to support in that in that capacity, but I really had a reckoning with myself.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Am I really ready to make that commitment on my own?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it just so happens that a pretty um what would I a pretty uh influential person in my life who was my stepdad was head of HR at a within Pfizer's central research and development branch.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, he, you know, he saw my interests brew and he said, you know, there are other opportunities out there that really help you kind of serve your same aim.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Have you thought about human resources?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, I think my I think perhaps not unlike a lot of folks.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: My initial reaction was like, gosh, attracting talent, so recruiting people into companies, maybe, um, getting them on payroll and rolling them in benefits.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: And he's going, wait, wait, wait.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's much, much more than that, right?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um there, you know, businesses are communities of people, and people are people.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: And people need just help sometimes, navigating the interpersonal dynamics, navigating the constraints of um their environment, their work situation, their budgets, right?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so there is this role called the business partner that gets to take that consultative nature, and you're helping business leaders achieve their goals through people.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then you're also helping people achieve their personal goals through their business context.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so with just a little bit of direction and questions from, again, a pretty important person in my life, um, you know, and you know, and to his credit, he also just kind of connected me with some folks in his professional network so I could do informational interviews, a lot of the things I would now encourage for anybody who's early in their career.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it did sway me into my gosh, yeah, this really does sound like an interesting profession.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what what lit me up about stepping into it and what continues to light me up today about it is really finding that intersection where business need and personal goals, personal um interests uh collide.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: And you really get to, you know, for the benefit of the business, spark some innovation, progress, results, and for the individual, just find meaningful work and interesting challenges and interesting problems to solve, which at the end of the day, I think um, in my experience, that's like when you when you talk to somebody who's engaged, they're like, they have a problem in front of them that's just like just wrapping their mind, or you know, they're just having a blast getting their minds around that problem.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: They want to solve it, they want to be part of the solution.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: So um, yeah, that's that's how I got into it.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I'm here.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's actually quite a shift from I'm guessing the Danica that went into college and the Danica that came out of college.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm guessing that based on the way you've just spoken about this, that that was not you weren't thinking about working in HR when you picked your major.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: So when you had to when you made that shift, I shouldn't say had to make that shift, when you when you chose to make that shift, um, was there a period of adjustment?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Was there like a sense of loss for what you thought you were doing?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: We get this question quite a lot because I think that it's interesting, people um, you know, at any age, whether you're 18 or whether you're 40, sometimes when you're like changing direction, it can feel like what got you to that point was wasted.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then you get this sort of sense of loss associated with it.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious as to what it was like for you.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's really interesting.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: I love that question.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um because when you said, you know, I feel like my I feel like my short trajectory, I can't say have like a whole wealth of experience, but like it's just been a kind of continuous story of shifts.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: So just to um growing up, uh, my the I grew up actually with a probably till the age of 20, um, with a this belief that I was put on this earth to be a musician.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: So my first two years of college were actually spent um pursuing vocal performance.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um and again, it was just that, it was that continuous self-assessment of like, what do I want my life to be like?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: And is this path going to get me there?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that I that was my first big shift away from a focus in music into liberal art, like a broader liberal arts and going into international relations.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, I think there was some aspect of mourning with them, but I wonder if I didn't learn from that.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: And and did that give me then, did that empower me to your point, you know, to make that shift from human rights to uh human resources, um, you know, to understand that it's it's you don't have to lose it.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: You can still carry what's meaningful forward.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so in that exam, in that prior example, right, yeah, you can continue to focus on your music musical studies, you can find other avenues for um expressing your talent, but um, what are those career options that are perhaps going to give you a little more, I think there was a lot wrapped up in that, be it um not such a narrow focus for one, because I, you know, I I had a lot of interests outside of music, but then also I think just for um job and financial security as well.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I remember a mentor early on in my career um uh who said to me when I was talking about the various things that I could do and what I would leave behind if I went in this direction or that direction.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um said to me that what makes you think that you have to do that in the context of your job?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I and that to me was a really interesting thought, right?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because most of us are working, you know, in the range of, I don't know, 40 to 80 hours a week, something like that.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's less than half a week.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: And sure, we're spending some of that time sleeping as well.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we've always got some time where we're doing something that is not the thing that is paying our bills, and we can use that however we want.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was a that was a point that was made me very early on, this idea of like get a sense of what you want to do with your life, and then having had a sense of what you want to do with your life, figure out what role work plays in that in that broader, bigger picture.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it sounds to me like effectively what you're saying is that you've built up this your life so far has been sort of a set of interests that you've pursued, and that set of interests has molded who you are.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And a great way to pursue that, uh, a good proportion of those interests is through HR, which is really it's it's a very kind of astute way of I think thinking about it and and gets rid of the fear of shifting from one direction to another direction.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, the flip of what we were just talking about really is that sometimes when people get into a particular type of career, they think of themselves getting stuck in a rut or they get bored or that kind of thing.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: But you've been in this field of HR for quite some time.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: So what draws you to it like on a now, on a day-to-day basis?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Why are you still getting up in the morning and being excited about being in HR?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: I just I'm compelled by interesting problems to solve for one.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I'm also very compelled by just service and being able to, on the other side of an engagement or an activity or an action, just to know that I've helped somebody, to know that as a result of the conversation, as a result of the questions and advice, they're able to see things in a way they hadn't before and see a path forward.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, yeah, I and I guess when it comes to right human resources, it's a very specific area of focus, right?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: So when you're you're solving problems, you're solving problems about the organization and how it functions and how you create the conditions for people to show up and do their best work.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: And a job is a job, right?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: There, there are always aspects of kind of the cleanup and the maintenance that might be less fun, but how you know, how can we connect individuals to the opportunity that's going to make a difference?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's it, that's both mutually beneficial in terms of their own growth as well and the business's growth.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: Those are the challenges that I love to wrap my head around.
• 10:47
  unknown: Yeah.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose with people being so central to the equation, people being different, that every day is different.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Is that is that accurate?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's, you know, um that is one of the things uh about I think the business partner position that can be a challenge because it's generalist in nature, right?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: There is so much when it comes to human resources that you could focus on.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'm I'm where I tend to gravitate towards is um, as I just described, I think um, you know, engaging leaders in discussion around the goals that they're trying to achieve and what they want that employee experience to be like in the achievement of that and who, you know, understanding the talent that's helping them get there and where are the gaps, right?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's where I go.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: But then there's always, of course, just the you need to, as a HR professional, you need to be able to consult in a way that's also just um, you know, legal and mitigates risk for the business.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's a lot to know there.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then there's a lot to know just about the kind of support structures for employees, be that benefits and compensation.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and then certainly as the last year has just again presented us with this amazing learning opportunity.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: How do we support individuals in a in who are forced into completely new working environments, right?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: In um in circumstances they would have never anticipated and weren't ready for.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you spent a a good period period of your time working for you know some really big companies.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: And from that now, I understand you've moved into consulting.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: So what caused that shift from working for a single organization to working for multiple?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: And what would you say is different for you as a result?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: I just found myself at a, I think, a place where I was looking for more control over my time and um and found, you know, I had had enough in terms of a lot of different experiences in HR that I have enough generalist background and experience behind me that I certainly have something to offer for.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think, you know, here in the Seattle area, we're gifted with all of these great, you know, tall startups, um, small businesses that, you know, are of such size that they um maybe it doesn't make sense to have um in-house HR support, but do need that kind of HR person I'm retainer.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so um it's it gives me an opportunity to kind of scope the hours, um, which then frees up more time for me.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think what I'm most excited about is um with the time that I've freed up of all of those upper, you know, all of those learning opportunities I've had within the HR function, is there some area where I'd like to develop like niche knowledge and expertise?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so the opportunity to deepen my expertise in any particular area, maybe one or two.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm currently thinking about it, um, with with some of that extra time that has been freed up.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: And quite honestly, it's you know, it's um it's been nice to have some of those weekends and evenings back.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now, what's interesting about that, I suppose, is that in a sense, you're doing a different kind of juggling of commitments, right?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we we foresee that as you as we move into this kind of gig economy world, that many, many, many more people are gonna become in quotes independent consultants.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And even people that actually have a full-time job may be doing one or two or three additional side gigs as well.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: So the type of juggling that you were doing, I suppose, was very unstructured in nature, in the sense that you had all these different parties inside the large organization that were competing for your time.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and now to a certain extent, uh it gives you back some control over that because you can choose how many things to take on, and um and you'll take on as many as feels right for your work-life balance in the moment.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Is that is that accurate?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well said.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, interesting.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I know that for a lot of our listeners, there's been a there's a lot of fear associated with the idea of of not having a single paymaster, as it were.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say has been the hardest thing of stepping out of the comp of that comfort blanket and stepping out into a world where if you don't land a job, you might not get paid.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that that absolutely in what you're describing, there's there's no question that there was an element of risk that I I really had to feel comfortable that I that it was acceptable risk for me.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that I had the financial cushion.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think had I been, you know, presented this question to myself, do I want to make this step now, maybe five years ago, I I likely wouldn't have done it.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think, you know, to your point, there there are a lot of benefits provided by the employer.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and certainly, as we know, just I just how important medical coverage, medical insurance is to everybody, and an employer-sponsored plan being just an easy way to that, you know, I I'm in a situation now where I, you know, I can roll on to my husband's plans, which is a great benefit available to him and fortunate to me.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I think I did need to look at the resources I had around me to understand is this a level of risk I am comfortable and willing to take at this point in time?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think I also just feel very fortunate that I um, again, I think the power of networks, I, you know, I was aware of this particular um people consulting firm locally who just happened whose again, you know, my my interests were gosh, there's this, there's got to be this latent need for just HR support for small businesses and startups.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it just so happened that there was a consulting firm that that was kind of where they were, that was their sweet spot.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so um to be able to join their roster of available people, operations consultants, in some ways that's that's really great.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, our values in are aligned, um, our goals are aligned.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I get that extra help for um the business development, right?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: So there are looking for those options where it's not all incumbent on you to do everything as you're stepping, you know.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: So, so when you're making that brave step and it there is a change, um really taking stock of what you need in order to do that in a way that continues to put the root, you know, put food on the table, have your core needs met, um, and and and have enough nest egg, I suppose, saved up um to weather some of the storms when, you know, because there there very may well be a time where the the business is just not coming in.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, and knowing that there are always options, I think that's the other thing, right?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: Is that um you you are you do not need to be relegated to the choice that, you know, if if if that market opportunity does not bear out, you still have skills and experiences that are valuable in some aspect, way, or form.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, what are the other options and alternatives available if the worst case scenario does emerge?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a really interesting point, isn't it?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think as you go forward in your life, there's a couple of couple of conflicting things that happen at the same time.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, number one, your set of commitments, you know, go up, right?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, it's extraordinary how over time you build up this set of financial commitments that make it harder for you to step away from the existing workplace.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: And you get sort of that, even if you say, Oh, I'm not never gonna be caught by golden handcuffs, you sort of do, right?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, you know, you're looking at the mortgage or the car payment or whatever it happens to be.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's that element that kind of came to be.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: But the other thing that you build up over time, which runs contrary to that, is you could develop hopefully a deeper understanding of the value that you have, and therefore that you probably do have a set of skills that is marketable outside of the current organization that you're in.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: So there's these sort of two things that kind of compete against each other.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I've found personally in terms of what, you know, and which of those things.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, so let's uh let's switch gears a bit.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about the um relationship between employees and employers.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, someone who's worked in some some very big companies, um, I will tell you that um that in many cases, I personally uh have uh steered well clear of HR.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I know many uh I I know many others as well who who their relationship with H with HR inside certain companies um is uh the only time you talk to HR is the time you're hired, and then if you're unfortunate enough to be fired.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then otherwise, other than that, you steer you steer well clear of it.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um almost a fear in some cases of HR?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: What do you what do you think should be the most functional relationship between HR, uh the HR function and the employees inside an organization?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll add another question onto it as well, if I may, which is um why do you think that in certain organizations there is this kind of dysfunctional relationship between employees and ostensibly the people who are set up to help them?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, gosh, I mean, I love your question because I think what you're describing is really at the heart of a lot of HR conversations and those who specialize in the function, uh, I'm thinking of David Ulrich in particular, uh, it's that balance of um a member of the management management team, but also employee advocate.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think HR continues to have an important role to play in terms of being the employee advocate.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: I do get concerned that, you know, I think um I think that there's always, you know, understandably businesses are always um looking at cost containment.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think the HR function is one area where you're all areas, but like where can where can we save some costs?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think the HR professional has been stretched more and more to really um, you know, prioritize their time towards uh the strategic objectives.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: So um, and what that requires is really close partnership with the business leaders to understand what are you trying to achieve?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um what kinds of skills and profiles do you need to get there?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: Where is it working well now and where isn't where isn't it?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so sometimes that does involve performance, the performance conversations you've met or mentioned rather.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, and so I I think the concern I have for the function is preserving those times for those positive interactions with employees.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it is incumbent, I think, on the HR professional as well, to look for those opportunities.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I think some of those strategic priorities arguably are are maybe the more fun and intellectually stimulating types of work.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um however, are you looking for those moments and opportunities where just showing up?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: To be part of the conversation or to celebrate something really gives you that opportunity to put positive deposits in the bank account.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: So you are this you are an approachable and trustworthy person.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, to your question about why that perception exists, I think that's very much, you know, if you're an employee and you have any question about, you know, how your function's being led, and you as an HR person are perhaps perceived as a member of the management team, well, how do you play that dual role of confidant to the employee, somebody that they can turn to, but also somebody who is linking arms with the management team in pursuit of the goals and objectives?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, I was thinking about how I think there were days where with automation, we lose some of those natural connections and what I maybe describe as more benign entry points for connection and introduction to employees.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: So they're being onboarded and they have some questions about their benefits plans.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it used to be the case you called your internal HR person who, you know, that's the that's the stuff we know in our sleep, right?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: There's no ambiguity in there.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: We can we can give you the right answers, we can answer your questions quickly.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a way to put ourselves in front of an individual to show um we're here to help you and we're we're another trustworthy resource that you can talk to if you ever, if, if you ever want to share your experience, right?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: If you're having challenges, but also as that person to advocate for you as well.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so, and I think about that from a career perspective, that's really where I, you know, I wished I could have had more time to really engage to say, where with some specific individuals, where where are you hoping to go?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Where do you want to take your career?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what steps have you taken to understand what kind of opportunities exist with the within the business to create a path for you?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so to the extent that I can't reach out to you and have that conversation, if you want to have that conversation, to know that I am that resource that can help you.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I can ask you questions, I can connect you to a broader network, I can ask, have you explained I'm aware of what's going on in neighboring division?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: Have you heard about that?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: Have you had any conversations about that?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I I, you know, I am not surprised to hear the perception, you know, and I think it's something we always have to be on guard for.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um we we do need to continue to play that dual role.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: We need we need to strike that balance of uh of advocacy for the employee.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: And and really, I if you there's the insights that an HR professional can bring to strategy, um, if they are connected at a more individual level with the folks in their organization, um, you know, through that, those insights, you're gonna be in a better position to help the leaders make take action towards the employee experience that they want to develop, that they're striving for.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: And if they're if they're looking to head a direction to be better informed of what the challenges and the barriers are or what's working in their favor, you're bringing them important intelligence if you can have those connections.
• 25:13
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• 25:21
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• 25:28
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• 25:36
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• 25:46
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• 25:52
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• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: The answer to the question as to how a functional relationship can exist between employee and HR is wrapped up in the question of how uh a strong trust relationship can be established between the employee and the employer.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do you agree?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do you agree with that?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: I do agree with that.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's really what I was trying to get to with those benign points of entry, right?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because and and I think um I think there's been a towards the extent of like understanding your employee population's experience, you know, employment experience, I think there's a lot of um digital tools, um, artificial, you know, a lot of progress in terms of how we can survey and pulse from a very transactional and um inner, you know, transactional perspective to get employee sentiment, right?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: I get concerned that as we automate and as we kind of create more, more of that distance between the HR professional, you miss those those human points.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: To you should have, I'm not necessarily suggesting that the right thing to do is to have a person, uh, an HR professional kind of hold that new hire's hand and talk through every component of their benefits plan.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: That may or may not be the right answer.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: My point more being is is to find those opportunities where again, where it's um they're very safe points of discussion and human interaction so that you are able to establish trust with those employees.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: So that um, and and a positive representative for the organization as well, right?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because oftentimes with those things, you're you're speaking on behalf of the company and what we're trying to do to support you as an employee.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, what a great entry point for just building relationships, human relationship, and knowing that there is somebody who's there to talk and listen to your interests and help you carve your path within the corporate context.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I do get concerned that the more we automate, the more we cost-contain and the more we focus our the very, you know, very needed strategic folk.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: We if we if we weight that too heavily, we're perhaps missing those opportunities to make the positive deposits into the employee relationship experience, that it's not just your manager, it's not just your immediate team.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: You have a broad network of folks available to you to help you.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and yeah, and and those, again, just those um, those very easy, simple entry points of human connection.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, are are we making it a priority to define those and make sure that we're in front of our folks and um and we're building that trust between the organization and the and the talent base?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: So work is changing.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and just over the course of the last 20 years, we've seen the rise of many more roles that are ambiguous in nature, uh, that are unstructured, don't necessarily have clear, um, definable outcomes.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, job descriptions have got a little more vague in some cases.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um as you've seen this shift towards more flexible work and um and this kind of unstructured, ambiguous work, what characteristics are you seeing um in the most effective employees that have to work that have to or want to work in those kinds of functions?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: So when we talk about ambiguity, and what I heard you say was really around the ambiguity around um maybe I'm I'm you know, the bounds of my role are not super clear or even my ultimate deliverables, and in some ways I can really resonate with that.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I think also what comes to mind for me when I think ambiguity is it's it's implied that we don't have all the answers, the way is not clear, and the answers are not readily available.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I think about that context and and folks who I've seen kind of navigate that successfully, what first comes to mind for me is just learner's mindset, right?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's so because of the very fact that there is so much unknown, um, I think we need to give ourselves the the the um the grace to try and to fail.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and to, if you failed, to not think of it as a mark on your record or a mar or poor reflection on your capability, but rather what do we learn from that?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so I and that's really kind of key to resiliency, which I think is also just very important.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, to have the wherewithal to, I tried that, it didn't work, let's try something new, right?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and with that, you know, I do think there's also, you know, what goes hand in hand in that is just being um a self-starter.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: So so not a passive participant or victim to the unknown, but really to see the opportunity and to ask the questions and to demonstrate the courage um to um to seek the information that you know, or or maybe even to take the risk of um, I'm not sure that this is right, but why don't we try it, right?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um then I also just um how we elicit the best of teams and to demonstrate, I think, patience and compassion so that to know that you are not the only person struggling with the ambiguity.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: There are a lot of others, even your own leader, perhaps struggling with the ambiguity.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: And what we don't want to do is to hold ourselves up and to hide, but rather to to going and engage and and and to have compassion for yourself that you're struggling, as well as compassion for others that they're struggling with the murkiness or the lack of clarity.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um the other thing that really does come to mind as well is when the way is unclear, have we gone back to just, you know, the root of the problem we're trying to solve?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: So at the end of the day, what are we ultimately striving for?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I've seen that, you know, where where things are unknown, what do we know?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: What do we need to anchor ourselves in?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one just prime example of that um from recency is just um, gosh, when COVID hit and we didn't, you know, we didn't know how we could safely bring folks back on site, but we had some critical functions that had to, right?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, you know, and the answers weren't readily available in terms of what you can do, what you can't do, what you can ask, what you can ask employees.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but what we always knew was the utmost important, what uh utmost importance was employee and customer self-hate safety.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: So if you are anchoring yourself in what is most important, that can be a helpful guide for all of the decisions and tough choices you need to make, and even just to assess the pros and cons of your options.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: So anchoring in what is at the root of the problem we're trying to solve, or what is um what is of the utmost importance for us to protect and maintain can be a helpful light forward.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's also one thing when I have a lot of sympathy for leaders in ambiguous environments, because I think we have, gosh, I even think when I first entered the profession of human resources and um cascading goals, and there was a lot more structure, I think, and a lot of cascade of information.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I think leaders often expected to have the answers, expected to at least be able to point out the right path.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: And our leaders in these circumstances are also experiencing the ambiguity and are also figuring it out at the same time as their teams.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, I think there's a really important role that leaders play in modeling the behavior and creating the conditions for folks to do exactly that.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: So making it safe to fail, right?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: That um one of the most important roles of a leader um is to make decisions based on incomplete information.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: And to your point, in the COVID example, right, you were never gonna get all of the information that you needed.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: And in most cases, actually, with most decisions that senior executives make, um there is no they could they could spend six months gathering all the information that they need to gather, but in the meantime, the business has been stalled for six months.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: So there's this ability, um, which is really heightened in in successful chief executives to be able to absorb information rapidly, gather enough, know what is enough information in order to be able to make a decision, or know how hard it would be to gather additional information and just say, that's gonna be too much work to get additional information, so therefore I'm gonna make a decision right now.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's a behavior that senior executives have always had to have inside organizations, but it's now a behavior that in these unstructured, ambiguous roles that many of us have to do, right?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Many of us on a day-to-day basis have to go, all right, well, this is all the information I'm gonna get right now, so we're gonna we're gonna go down path X instead of path Y.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a real opportunity here for um executives to almost pull back the curtain on that a little bit.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: And just and and help people understand that that's how they make decisions too.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: They don't always have there and they're struggling through that.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think you're raising a really important point.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, it's it's one I would add to I think what I'm hearing in this is, and then I've seen perhaps at more of the kind of individual contributor team level, is beware of um creating the culture of heroism.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: What I mean that is is the pursuit of perfection over progress, right?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think that will serve us well in ambiguous environments.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: You to your point, you need to make decisions and in order to make progress, you need to work with the facts you have.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I think there's um, but I think we have, I think we traditionally recognize and reward the perfect answer and the hours that go in to creating the perfect answer, right?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the sacrifices that go in versus versus building the muscle of principles-based decision making, right?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: At the end of the day, what like what are some critical few important criteria that we just always want to strive for and use as kind of our guardrail for when we don't have enough information and and to teach that capability um early, uh, I do think is important.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: I if I'm picking up what you're putting down there, that that's what what you just said, just in spite, and I think is really important too um that the the the nature of life and and how the world turns is we have imperfect information and incomplete information, but we can't sacrifice progress for um you know for for for gathering those facts.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what's at the root of that is a fear of mistakes, a fear of failure, a fear of not good enough that um that it stalls us out.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I and so just to to start rewarding more of the here is what I knew, here was what was guiding my choices, and and and this is how I acted.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes that's gonna play out great.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes it's gonna be like, ah, we missed something.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, we know that now.
• 37:57
  unknown: Right.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: There's it's always it's a journey um versus I think of an event and and to to reward the steps in the journey versus the big um sacrifices and um heroics that I think we see when we um value perfection over progress.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Are you looking to hone the skills you need to thrive as work and the rest of our lives merge?
• 38:22
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• 38:24
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• 38:32
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• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: Just visit effectiveness.me and join up now.
• 38:41
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• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: Billion Minds.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Providing practical tools for our way too busy lives.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: We've had a lot of people share with us their opinions on what employers need to do differently in the next five to ten years as as work continues to become more ambiguous, continues to become most likely uh more unstructured in nature and more flexible in nature.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: What's your take on that?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that something will shift in uh employers as employees do work more flexibly and as employees have to work with others that are not just inside their company but outside their company and say they could I mean I think we have this like emblazoned view of how we work, uh a a perspective on how we work, the ways of working, like the 40-hour work week and kind of those core business hours of eight to five.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: I I feel like that it's it's emblazoned in our minds, and I and I and it's interesting to me because that emerged out of a society that looked very different from where we are today, um, where we see much more knowledge-based working um in and kind of thinking about, you know, perhaps that's not physically taxing, but maybe that's mentally taxing.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so what are what are kind of the natural rhythms that we need to match and support our employees with?
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: And is the 40-hour work week the best way to match that?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and also just the notion that, you know, it was also emerging at a time when it was a lot of just um, I'm I'm probably generalizing, but I think a lot of you know, single-income families where, you know, today it's that's just um, and granted, that's a very kind of metropolis-centered perspective, but it's it's just rare that you can have um you can raise a family and equal living with just a single income.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, now you have two working parents, and and um, so I think we just need to um, I I do hope that we start to broaden our perspective and just really explore, for example, meeting culture.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um so we we need a meeting.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: Why do we need a meeting?
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because people need together.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, why do people need to be together?
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: Because there are certain materials we can't whiteboard from Zoom, you know, like to really poke and prod at the ways we've traditionally worked and perhaps not fall into those traps that don't allow for the flexibility we've gained um over the prior year.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I don't know that that's a succinct answer, but I do think that um an HR can, you know, can play a role in asking the questions and influence thinking on that.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a very I think it's a very interesting answer, particularly as we start to think about things like, as you say, the 40-hour work week.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we probably need to go back and reflect the the idea that that's an artifact for which not a lot of thought went into that artifact.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: It just became almost like a cultural norm.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and just because it's a cultural norm that dates back for a long period of time and consists of the idea of doing about eight hours a day, about five days a week.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: There is there are studies out there right now that indicate that you can reduce that number and increase productivity, right?
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: So um if that's true, we need obviously need more research on it, but if it is true that you can reduce that number and increase productivity, who benefits from it being 40 hours?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: The employee doesn't, right?
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and the employer doesn't either, if the if those two things are true.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it probably does warrant quite a bit of study to understand what is, particularly for knowledge work, what's the most effective relationship in terms of you know, sheer effort put in from the employee and uh and what comes out on the employer side, which what what they want is results from that effort, right?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: They want impact associated with that effort.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so the effort impact equation is what we sometimes call it billion minds, but that effort impact equation we right now think that the effort impact equation is about 40 hours of effort for whatever impact comes out.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: But it could well be that if you know 36 hours of effort results in a higher degree of impact, we should all stop working 40 hours a week and we should start working 36.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's it's a good it's a good question to ask.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: And um and I think that more enlightened employers should start to actively invest in answering that question.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and towards again, I think it's I think um tradition, I wonder how much our traditional ways of working are back towards that that goal of attracting, retaining, and engaging your employees.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: Is it helping you?
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: Or in some ways is that structure hindering you?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I and to by extension, um, are you going to be able to perhaps uh gain access to a more diverse talent pool if you loosen up some of that tradition the traditional norms uh of around the ways we work.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah it's uh hmm I think we do have a lot of learning and evolving to do.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure I got the answers.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: But at least we know that we we know we have the questions to ask.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah that's exactly right.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah that that's the point is is um I think we should really seize this opportunity to understand more and to and to act on the you know I in some ways we were forced into the opportunity with the pandemic and we learned.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so in the absence of the critical nature of we need to all hunker down in our homes, in the absence of that, let's continue to inspect that and pursue the opportunities that again we can test and learn.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: We don't you know we could pilot um and see what works and and serves our talent base well okay so last question for you.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: With all of this um discussion as to how the world of work is changing um what it means for employees what it means for employers to kind of loop it back around to where we started um what do you think happens should happen to the HR function itself?
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: I know for example inside Microsoft a couple of other companies they've started um calling the HR leader the chief people officer actually I think that's in the word people is in your own uh title as a consultant now.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: So what is is that indicative of something of a broader trend?
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: Is that indicative of the way in which you think HR should move um over the course of the next five to 10 years?
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah I mean I I I say it's funny just because the the titling convention has evolved right it started as the personnel department and then it became the human resources department.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you're right and now we're starting to see people I mean you know and I think I think every change has been indicative of like is the title signaling a um a lens through which we look at our talent right so personnel sounding very administrative and dry perhaps um human resources well resources yes they're human almost sounds like automatons right um and so I mean I do like the notion of being the people people and to and to be the center of expertise that thinks of the person holistically and that acknowledges their work life is just one aspect of a broader life.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think to me that's what people signals is that we are people that are multifaceted with unique strengths and capabilities and we're unpredictable.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: We you know we have a lot to contribute and we have a lot of interests that reside even outside the workplace.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so to create to be in the in the center of expertise that's really maybe focused on the thriving of humans, right?
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think to me to hear that title of people, that's what that signals to me.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: I like it, but gosh, I wonder where we'll be 20 years from now and important.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I you know I think you were leading with a that point of also now being remote, you know, largely remote I I do I think about those, you know, I think a lot about our folks who are graduating college and entering their first professional experience in this circumstance.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: And boy, um what is that experience like in and thinking about I just in the absence of a physical space where you see your team, you see the broader business, you know, your broader company community um if you don't have that um I do get concerned for the connectedness and the people ness of of that uh you know employee experience.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so um that's going to be something I'm gonna be really interested in watching and learning as we as we start to re-enter and what re-entry looks like and how we create um communities connection and encourage the mixing of diverse viewpoints and um making magic happen with connections that you that don't just happen because of the meetings that you're in, but the whole, you know, what used to be the hallway drive bys or meeting somebody in the kitchen.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's the people, right?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's the people aspect.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I it's gonna I think it is important, you know, our our whole selves and and how we continue to foster that if we see more of our work lives be outside of the workplace and more in a digital format.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be interesting all right Danica thank you so much this was fun the way too busy podcast was presented and produced by me Matt Neal and was brought to you by Billion Minds.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to get in touch with us tweet us at Rising Billion or email us at way too busy at billionminds dot com billion Minds creating practical tools for our way too busy lives