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ADHD Parenting: Why Rewards and Punishments Often Backfire · ADHDtime On Air

• Daniella Karidi, PhD: Hi everyone, and thank you so much for joining us at ADHD Time On Air. Today, I get to speak with a colleague and a friend, Mary Smith. She's an unward ADHD winning coach, a speaker, and the creator of CAS Free ADHD. I think she has like at least 15 years of experience. And every time I meet her at a conference, I love our conversations. I learned something new. So I invited her to talk with me today about... support for parents and strategies that are practical to be used with children. And I'll let her share more about herself because I don't want to get any of it wrong. Mary Smith: You bet. Well, I am an ADHD coach. like Daniela said, I have over 15 years of experience. My specialty is working with children, 16 years of age and younger in a collaborative environment with their parents. I also do parent training in behavioral management and parent coaching. Daniella Karidi, PhD: So not busy at all, not a lot of things in your plate. Nah. Nah. So Mary Smith: Nah, not at all. Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: if someone is just joining in and doesn't know, what is ADHD coaching for parents? Tell me a bit what it is, in a nutshell, and what makes it so important. Mary Smith: Well, I think what makes it important is that today's parents were raised by parents who were told that ADHD was a disruptive behavioral disorder. And so that's the only version of ADHD they know besides that Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mmm. Mary Smith: knucklehead in the back of the room that wouldn't be quiet during history class, right? And all of the behavioral interventions in the past when people thought it was a behavior problem, we're based on exerting control over the child's behavior and trying to motivate compliance through these external methods like rewards and punishment. And so that's all parents know to do. And what ADHD coaching for parents does is teach them more this modern definition of ADHD as a developmental disorder. And it gives them better, more targeted strategies. to handle these unique challenges that are often seen as behavioral challenges with their children. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Wow, it's good summary. I'd love if you tell me why those strategies that were used so much in the past don't work. Mary Smith: Well, let's look at it this way, right? The rewards and punishment that were used in the past, they're good for situational redirection and short-term compliance, but they're not good for skill building. Okay, Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mmm. Mary Smith: and let me use an example to kind of explain this. Let's say you're at a child's birthday party and your child ask another child, hey, let me play with that toy. Well, that child says, I'm not really finished with it. And your child punches them in the nose and takes that toy away. Now, the first thing you're going to do is go over there and probably put them in timeout. And this is going to be a very effective way of extinguishing this incident quickly so that it doesn't further disrupt the party. Okay. That's really a punishment timeout, right? It's a form of punishment. There's probably also going to be a little, hey, that's not the right thing to do. That's not how you treat people. This is what you should have done. But at this moment, this child's amygdala, their emotional center, has kind of taken over. And the logical or the learning part of their brain is just closed for business. So it doesn't really matter how gently you talk to them. There's no learning that's gonna go on here. In fact, your punishment, even though it was expedient and maybe the right thing for the situation, Daniela, did nothing for the root cause of your child punching the other child in the nose. And that root cause is your child's skill deficit in regulating their emotions, right? Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm. Mary Smith: And so there's going to be a portion of your audience that says, yeah, but I only use positive reinforcement. And again, if we're trying to teach a skill with a promise of reward, we have to take into account the way that the reward circuit in the brain works. That circuit requires dopamine to pass messages back and forth from the pleasure center to the memory center to the logic center to create this conscious experience of how that reward was earned. And from what we know about the ADHD brain, it has less dopamine, it has lower cortical mass, any fewer connections. So in a really simple sense, the ADHD brain does not have enough dopamine to transfer that information to all of these key areas of the brain. And it has fewer pathways along which to send it. Daniella Karidi, PhD: So if punishment and rewards don't work, okay, if they're not our solution, what Mary Smith: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: would you say, I know this is not like a, might not be a five minute, but what would be the highlights of what is the solution? Mary Smith: You know, that's the deer in headlights look that I often get from parents when I say, hey, we gotta move away from that. They'll just be like, well, wait a minute. If I can't reward or punish, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna motivate their behavior? And what I tell them is that, look, again, your child's not intentionally. doing these things, right? It's not intentional disobedience or defiance. This is a skill deficit. And so we have to start focusing more on building a skill and less on trying to control behavior, right? Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yep. Mary Smith: And I also ask my parents, remember, building these skills takes time and it takes endurance. So we have to approach motivating that endurance in a more supportive way. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I like that. I like that. Can you share some examples with the audience? Mary Smith: Yeah, I can. Let's take this little boy. He was a second grader and every day he would come home with his little behavior sheet and a frowny face stamped on it, right? And every night the parents would talk to him about, hey, what happened? What were you supposed to be doing? What are you gonna do next time? And eventually they would end up taking electronics or TV time away from him. Well, his situation in the classroom never got better. And every day he got into the car in the pickup line and just in this bad mood, right? His mom could see him walking down the sidewalk, just having a great old time. The minute his hand hit that door handle, his face fell and he was just in a bad mood. Well, his mom decided, hey, I'm going to promise you, a cake pop from Starbucks if you get a smiley face, a smiley face on that behavior chart. Well, he did it one day and he couldn't keep it up, right? Then he started getting into the car, the pickup line and just melting down the minute he had to open the door, right? So his classroom behavior even got worse. And his parents are at a loss, they don't know what to do. And I asked them, do you think we could try and experiment? Because this is a really hard sell for parents. Can we just try and experiment for two, maybe three weeks? Can you disconnect the cake pop and the lectures and the removal of TV time and electronics from that behavior sheet? Can we just say, hey, we'll look at it, frowny face, whatever, and just go on with our day? Well, the parents discussed this with the son. So they told them, this is, look, we're just not doing this anymore. We're not going to have rewards or a punishment. Now the parents had to prove this concept a couple of times and he got a frowny face and he'd get in the car and he'd just be waiting, right? And mom would say, Hey, see a smiley, a frowny face. You can try again tomorrow. Is there anything I can do to help you? And he'd be like, no. Okay. Well, Pretty soon, there were no more meltdowns in the pick-up line. His behavior started to improve in the class. One day he got a smiley face and he asked for that cake pop. And mom reminded him, we don't do that. But she verbally acknowledged his competence and that he's learning the rules. He's getting better, right? Well, his behavior continued to improve. And without that stress of rewards and punishment, the teacher's redirection ceased to be a trigger for further misbehavior. Now he gets more smiley faces and they go to get a cake pop just because, right? And I think that that's what some parents don't see is sometimes the reward or the promise of a reward can be just as dysregulating as a punishment. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I hear you and I love that perspective. I can see that even with my older adult clients. And I can see that when you're talking about adults with ADHD in different life transitions, the promise of some reward, if I finish this work and then I'll go get ice cream, okay? Usually Mary Smith: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: makes the ice cream bitter or makes the... or makes the work before not as motive, it doesn't work the same way. It might work for neurotypical individual. Mary Smith: Right, because they haven't attached, they've still attached an external control over them performing that task. They haven't found their internal motivation. And that's what I try to help parents do, is build that internal motivation within their child. And there's some certain frameworks to do that. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Love it. So when we think about the challenges of parents with kids with ADHD, I know there's a lot of burnout, a lot of burnout. And I think that comes many times because also one of the parents might have ADHD because we know how Mary Smith: Mm-hmm. Daniella Karidi, PhD: genetic this is, but also just even if that's not the case, just from raising a kid that has these challenges, what would be your top insights for coping with that family burnout. Mary Smith: The first one and foremost is that the parent should be involved or complete a parent training and behavioral management class because that class is going to help them shape a realistic expectation or a realistic perspective of their child's behavior, right? That it's not intentional disobedience, it's a skill deficit. So I think that's the first thing they need to do. The second thing I think they need to do is again, is move away from those rewards and punishment and follow a framework like self-determination theory. And what that theory says is that I have to be able to relate to my child if I'm going to change behavior in any way, right? Is that we all want to be... you know, understood in our environment. We want to know that there are people in our corner. And this sense of relatedness from self-determination helps the child kind of realize, hey, my parents love me just the way I am. They're on my side. And when things get tough, they're gonna be here for me. They understand why things are hard for me. Instead of just saying I'm being, you know, uncooperative, right? So that's the first thing. The second thing is parents have to learn to let go a little bit and to offer some autonomy. In my 15 years of coaching, I hardly ever find an instance where parents are asking kids to really do stuff that's outside of their capability. But what I do see is that the child is either micromanaged or they're left totally unsupported. It's one extreme or the other. And so I encourage parents to see that there is a middle ground with varying levels of support, right? And one of the tools that I use with them is sort of like for each task, make sure that your child understands the expectations. If you want your child to take autonomy or to take over, take ownership, that's very important. You have to give them... the boundaries and clear expectations. And so I encourage parents to just take a piece of paper, draw a cloud on the top of it, and just in different parts of that cloud, write what are the expectations? Let's say it's cleaning your room, right? Has to be done by Saturday, 10 o'clock in the morning, bed made, floor vacuumed, laundry done, toys put away, right? Then hand that piece of paper to the child and say, which one do want to do first? Let's write that as step one. Which one do want to do second? Let's write that as step two. And so this is a way to let the child exercise that autonomy and meet your expectations in the meantime, right? And so now the family has this codified document of these are what the expectations are. They're not changing. because the child's memory will sometimes play tricks on it. And sometimes one parent has one set of expectations, the other parent Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm-hmm. Mary Smith: has a different set of expectations. Now it's codified as an unchanging expectation for right now, Daniella Karidi, PhD: Right. Mary Smith: right? And the child has a written process to follow if they get stuck, Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yep. Mary Smith: right? Daniella Karidi, PhD: It's that famous question that we ask people a lot is, especially when we talk like a schoolwork or college kids, like what's the definition of a finished project? If you get an assignment Mary Smith: Yeah! Daniella Karidi, PhD: and a lot of kids like, well, I complete it. And I'm like, no, submission, submission is the last step. Like not completing the assignment, Mary Smith: Exactly! Yes! Daniella Karidi, PhD: submitting the assignment. And they're like, yeah. And you think that's like so Mary Smith: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: obvious, but it's not. always that obvious for our ADHD brain, we kind of like, Mary Smith: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: sometimes move on to the next thing without completing that last step because we did not make it very clear and obvious. And if we are a kid and the expectation is to unload the dishwasher, for instance, and for us as a parent, that means the bottom and the top, but as a kid that was smaller and it could only reach the top now, or only the bottom, and now there's an expectation that changed, but we didn't communicate it. Mary Smith: Right. Yeah, you could add that to the cloud now. Right? Exactly. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yes, yes. So clearing what the definition of finished is and also what is expected, making everyone on the same page, it really helps for sure. And I think that even as an adult, when we say, want to, you know, I want to read more books. I have a lot of clients that are retired and they want to do specific things. I want to read more books. And I'm like, what is more books? Let's make that clear. Mary Smith: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Cause I read 122 Mary Smith: Right. Daniella Karidi, PhD: books last year. So for me, more books might be very different than for your number. Mary Smith: Exactly. Daniella Karidi, PhD: So defining it really helps fit it, making sure the expectation is filled. And it's also making it something that is not invisible. I do find that as a lot of parents, we have invisible expectations from our kids. Mary Smith: Yes, invisible not communicated and you know what else Daniella I think is often missing from Expectations is the time element Right. It's like hey, we'll say things like hey this weekend you need to get that room cleaned and You know bedtime is 10 o'clock on Sunday and at 959 They're just Now they're gonna do it and you've been fuming about it on Friday night, Saturday, Sunday, all day, when to them, by the weekend, they followed the expectation, but your expectation was different, and you've been over there stewing about it all weekend, about why they're not doing it. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Got it. That's also important. So adding the time element, adding what is expected in the expectation, discussing it, potentially writing it down, and making it obviously age appropriate. We're not expecting, I want to make sure that our audience that's listening don't say, like, care, we're expecting a five-year-old to vacuum their room. No, the expectations are usually age appropriate. And sometimes some parents need support figuring that out, too. Mary Smith: Yeah, they do, right? And, you know, one of the things that I, I don't wanna say I enjoy, but I really do enjoy, is when we're talking about emotional regulation, you know? And let's say you have a 10 or 11 year old that can vacuum the floor and you tell them, hey, I need you to vacuum the playroom, but they're doing this the whole time. I don't know why you asked me to do this. I have other stuff to do. Why do you always ask me how come they never have to do it right? but they're doing that the entire time they're walking to the closet, getting the vacuum, turning it on and vacuuming the floor, right? And technically that's emotional control. They have done the task, you know, even though they've managed their emotions to do the task and to just try to tell them that's your child's way of coping with this, right? It really doesn't have anything to do with you. It's them developing that emotional regulation. And if the task is getting done, just step back and let them cope. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I like that. I like this stepping Mary Smith: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: back and letting cope. I also want to say that my kids, a lot would fall apart in the car at the end of the day. And I Mary Smith: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: was having a conversation with another mom and I said to her that I feel very honored that my kids fall apart in the car. And she looked at me like I'm a little cuckoo, which I am, but that's a different conversation. Mary Smith: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I said, no, it means that they feel safe, that they feel comfortable, that they have a place Mary Smith: Mm-hmm. Daniella Karidi, PhD: to let go emotionally. that they kept it in Mary Smith: Right? Daniella Karidi, PhD: where they needed to. They needed to function at school. They needed to be social with other kids. They needed to do the work. It wasn't a time to fall apart, but coming into the house or into the car, that's the time, Mary Smith: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: that's the place. Go ahead. This is safe. as they grew up, it happened less and less, right? But the idea was that Mary Smith: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: they knew that this was a safe place to be 100 % authentic and to fall apart if they need to and to let go because They worked hard at school being appropriate for school and doing all these emotional regulation stuff and doing. So I think that also giving parents an opportunity to understand when breakouts are appropriate or allowed or expected. Even for them to break out with us, with us coaches, this, we're their safe space. Mary Smith: Exactly, exactly. know, there is, we just kind of need to know what the reason is. Are you breaking down because you've had to mask and regulate all day and now you're just exhausted? It's like, let it out, right? But if there's something we're contributing to, then we probably need to take a look at that. You know, let's make Daniella Karidi, PhD: Good point. That's a good point. Mary Smith: sure we understand what's contributing to that meltdown. But I'm so with you, we are the safe place. We are the cotton cloud that they need to land on. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. So talking Mary Smith: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: about that, this is a great opportunity to share with people what you think people are getting wrong about ADHD, what you wish out there, like all these, like there's, tic tacers, there's influencers, there is also misinformation going on. What would be that Mary Smith: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: one thing you want to correct that people are getting wrong? Mary Smith: Well, let me, okay, I'm gonna start with parents. Again, it's that continuing to misinterpret a lack of developmental skills as disobedience or defiance. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mmm. Mary Smith: I think that's damaging to families. As far as social media, look, there are some people out there who really know what they're talking about. And there are some people who don't, right? And I'm all about the... the social media people who are just like, hey, let's hold hands around the flagpole and let's sing Kumbaya and let's celebrate our differences. That's fine, but these people still have to live in the world where those differences are causing them significant challenge and it's taking a toll on their psyche. And so I think that's... what some people are getting wrong is that this idea of neurodivergence is acceptance and just accept the way you are. And I think sometimes that's internalized to the people who hear that is just accept that your life is going to be fraught with challenges, right? Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. Mary Smith: And that's not okay. I don't think that's okay. Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: No, no. And I talked with someone that was very active in the ADHD Awareness Month. And we were talking a while ago about the difference between awareness, acceptance, and change. And Mary Smith: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: if awareness is not leading to change, it's not helping enough. So awareness Mary Smith: Thanks Daniella Karidi, PhD: is a great, important to lead to change. But if it's just keeping us in our corner, then we're not doing what the purpose of awareness is. Mary Smith: Exactly, exactly. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Now I'm going to get a lot of like DMs about that comment, I'm going to, Mary Smith: I'd like to see them. I'd like to see them. Daniella Karidi, PhD: but besides that, what would you tell to yourself, like your young self, now that you know all this about ADHD and about parenting and about like coping with burnout, what would be what you'd want to tell to your young self? Mary Smith: well was diagnosed at 35 and what I would tell myself before I was 35, okay, is that you need to find someone who can teach you and guide you through understanding the difference between a lack of skill and a lack of compliance and motivation so that you can be a better parent to your children. If there was anything I could go back and do better, would be that. To be the better young mother to my children. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I appreciate that. And since I'm so future oriented, what would you tell to future self? What would you tell to future Mary? Mary Smith: What I would tell to future Mary is you've been through a lot, right? You got a lot of lived experience, but you have a lot of formal training too. You have a lot of higher level education around ADHD. It's really kind of time for you to stop sitting on your butt and get out there and start spreading this message a little bit farther and wider. Daniella Karidi, PhD: love it. And we were talking before this conversation about something that you're doing about this in your current hyper focus. So share with us a little bit about that. Mary Smith: Yes, me and my partner, Eliza Baraj, partner in coaching, we are developing a conference strictly for ADHD coaches and those mental health care providers who want to add a coaching component to their practice. We just want to provide high level research informed continuing education. for people who have already been through an accredited coaching program and gotten their feet wet with coaching. And we want to make sure that we're doing that in an affordable sense. We want people to be able to afford to get this education. All of our sessions, we're shooting to have certified for CEU credits through ICF and PAC. And it's going to be October 1st through the 3rd. just to kick Daniella Karidi, PhD: Wow. Mary Smith: off ADHD Awareness Month. Daniella Karidi, PhD: looking forward to it very much. Mary Smith: Thank you. Daniella Karidi, PhD: to those that don't know the initials you threw out, ICF is the International Coaching Federation. And Mary Smith: Thank you. Daniella Karidi, PhD: you gave another initial, but my brain Mary Smith: I think it's a professional association of ADHD coaches. That's a credentialing board. They're both credentialing boards. Daniella Karidi, PhD: And, and, and I think it's very important to emphasize that, when you seek help, um, it's, it does, it is better. have no, I, if, when you seek it for a professionally trained individual, if you are seeking medical help, go to a doctor, not a YouTuber that, um, if you're seeking, um, mental health, go to a trained coach or a psychologist or a therapist. or a nurse practitioner Mary Smith: Please. Daniella Karidi, PhD: that specialize in ADHD that have the lens of ADHD that can really support you. I think that that it makes a significant difference. And I know that Mary, I know you would agree with me that knowing, understanding Mary Smith: Yes. Daniella Karidi, PhD: what ADHD means will change the lens that you treat individuals. Mary Smith: It absolutely does. Daniella Karidi, PhD: so what, would you think would be like the, the final words you want to share with people? Mary Smith: Sure, I think what I would like for your listeners to go away with is using rewards and punishment are both dysregulating to your child and they're damaging to your child. We know that using frequent punishment, doesn't even have to be physical punishment. It can be verbal punishment or perceived verbal punishment. We know that that increases aggression. We know that that increases anxiety. It lowers self-esteem. It decreases performance and it damages that parent-child bond. So please find a qualified coach that can help you move past that and help you teach your child the skills they need to be successful in life. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I love that. And where can people find you if they want to work with you? Mary Smith: They can find me on my website. That's probably the easiest way. It's chaos free ADHD.com. Daniella Karidi, PhD: what would be the biggest tip you'd give a family that's looking into starting to think about coaching? Like what would be the starting point? What will you tell them? Mary Smith: Hey, I would say, go out, first of all, you can call me, or you can go out to the ACO directory and find a coach that's ADHDcoaches.org. You can find a coach out there. You can also find one on the Chad website. I think ADDA.com also has directories, but go out and look at some of the biographies. for these family coaches and find one that kind of resonates with you, that kind of looks like you're people and just talk to them. Most of them give free discovery calls or low cost discovery calls. Just call them and find out what it's all about and how it would help you. Daniella Karidi, PhD: love that. I would add to that that asking for help is amazing and we upload anyone, parent, adult, child that are seeking to improve their life. And I think that I would support people to understand that this process of being better at being ADHD could use support, could use help. Mary Smith: Yeah, I think that I just you just don't have to live in chaos. There is a way out. There is a way through. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Love that. Well, thank you so much for joining me today and I Mary Smith: thank you for having me. Daniella Karidi, PhD: look forward to the October event. Mary Smith: Great, thank you, Daniella. I really appreciate you having me on. I feel so honored. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Thank you.