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Issue 362: The Death Star Cell Block · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

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We must be cautious. Welcome to the Nerd Party. Hi, this is
0:08
Nick Anstasu, story editor on Star Wars, The Clone Wars and Star Wars
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bad Batch. And you are listening to aggressive negotiations. That's right, it's
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aggressive negotiations the Star Wars podcast hosted here on the Nerd Party Network. That
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is your guide to the deep dark crevices of all the things that you wondered
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about the thematic and story elements of the Star Wars saga. But we're not
0:41
afraid to ask, except occasionally when you realize that the question might have somebody
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give you answers that you didn't want it. But that's what we are here
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for. I am John Mills, and I am joined once more by my
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esteemed colleague, Jedi Master Matthew Rushing, the Keeper the Secret and the Guardian
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of the Flame. How are you doing, Matt and are you excited for
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tonight's surprise topic? I am more than excited about tonight's topic, as they
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would say on Friends, could I be more excited? And so you know,
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I yes, I'm ready. I always love when you just pull something
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out of your nether regions and ask me a question that I'm not expecting.
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So that's true. I pull it out of the nebula left and right.
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And what I would love to pull out of the nebula is some new ratings
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We do this for the love of the game. Look, let's face
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Matt, like we were dropping a hint, I'm gonna surprise you with a
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topic. This is a weird one that was sort of baking in my brain
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for a little bit. On the Death Star. We've gotten rogue one now
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where we see it's just completed, and we all know that Princess Leah gets
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captured and she's put in the detention block on the Death Star. My question
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for you is two part One, were there any other political prisoners on the
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Death Star that were therefore incinerated when the rebels blew it up? And two
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were they obligated to try to discover if there were additional prisoners and try to
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break them out as part of their destruction mission. I am tempted to think
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that there were not, and mainly because the you know, Rogue one shows
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us I think, uh, you know, some of the first action of
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the Death Star, and since uh, Rogue one's end leads right into Star
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Wars's beginning, I don't think there was another place for the Death Star to
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have gone and or a political prisoner to have been transferred to the Death Star.
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At this point, it does seem like you would still be bringing political
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prisoners to you know, Corussants or somewhere else. You know, we saw
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the bad Batch, you know, Admiral Ramparts put on a work colony of
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the Empire, and so those types of places seem to be the places you
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would find some type of prisoner like that. I don't really think the Death
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Star would be the place for those people. And it also seems like two
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and this is just conjecture, but you know, when you see them looking
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through, you know, they're like trying to figure out what cell she's in.
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It doesn't really seem like that there's anybody else in there. It's more
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like they're trying to find out which cell they've put like somebody in, and
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it's like the only cell that's occupied seems to be hers. And so that
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would be my answer to that question, because I just get the feeling like
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the Death Star is too new at this point, especially with the storyline that
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we got from one, that you really haven't had the opportunity for that to
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happen just yet. Okay, fair, I think that's a very fair read.
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I would counter it by saying, while the Death Star is being constructed,
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you could make the argument that there were political prisoners on Vader's Star Destroyer,
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and when he showed up at it, they decided to drop them off,
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you know, as part of a transfer program. You know, obviously,
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I think it's an uncomfortable thing to think that there are other prisoners in
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there that they didn't spring out, I mean, just for the sake of
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getting Lea out, springing other prisoners as distraction tactics. Would that seems like
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an and or show honestly the type of thing that they would go with that.
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But in those terms, I think it's it's accurate to say that they're
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probably were no other prisoners. But then fine, let me peel another layer
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off there, because there is a second part to it. But let's have
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like sort of like a subpart of part one here. If she was the
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very first one to be put on to the Death Star as a prisoner of
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any sort, then why was the cell block so staffed up? Don't you
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think they could have gotten away with one guy on duty instead of having a
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whole bunch of people on duty or did they just figure everybody would be and
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they're like, I don't know, go stand in the cell block or something
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like that prep for when we bring all of the prisoners in. You know,
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I actually feel like it's it's uh that thing where there isn't anything for
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these characters to do, uh, these people to do yet on the Death
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Star it's so new. Uh, there's there's and and they're trying to figure
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out the running of the Death Star you know itself and who's needed where.
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I mean, gosh, the guys that are on duty, uh, you
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know, making sure that people aren't in restricted areas don't really seem that interested
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in making sure that's the case. They're not doing a great job of that,
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right, And so I think that these detention block guys are the kind
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of the same way. They've got one prisoner to guard. They're super bored.
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There's no to jeric board in there for them. Uh, and they're
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really just waiting for their calf break. Uh and uh, you know the
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possible underworld, you know, spice dealer janitor, that's gonna give them their
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fix for the rest of the week. Well but again, like in all
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honesty, as we said here, we're thinking through it, and everything doesn't
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Staffing up the detention block on the Death Star seem really silly to begin with,
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right because okay, we have a couple of troopers, march you down
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there, we throw you in a cell, we close the door, peace,
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we're out. Do you really need any more than one person standing there?
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Because even if somebody escapes somehow and overpowers that one person on duty,
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where the hell are they gonna go? They have no idea where they are
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in relation to anywhere else on this entire moon sized battle station. They have
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tons of stormtroopers around. But I mean, I don't know. Am I
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answering my own question in my head right now? Thinking yes? But Han,
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Luke, Lea and Chewy waltz around the Death Star with impunity, armed,
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mind you, in no semblance of military clothing or armor. So maybe
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it is easier to sneak around the Death Star than I thought. Right,
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those four scamps got up to a whole lot of trouble. Well, this
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is the thing that I do think is a really interesting question, right,
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because I do think that the Death Star is this massive thing, right,
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and it always in some ways does it does make me wonder, you know,
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exactly why it's so big, and if really most of it is taken
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up with the machinery for creating you know, this massive planet destroying laser,
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and then of course the hyper space engines needed to fling this thing through hyperspace.
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Right, You would expect that both of those types of technologies would need
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to be incredibly big to get something as large as a moon basically a small
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moon through hyperspace, and then to power this type of laser, and so
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and I think, Yeah, I mean, you know, I know they've
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done the cross sections of the Death Star and those cross Section books and everything,
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and it seems to have like forty two million decks to it and everything.
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But you know, it does seem like that so much of the Death
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Star. I mean even think of like when they go to the elevators,
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the space elevators, and there's just that section and it just drops off,
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and it just seems like a big part of the Death Star as well,
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is kind of hollow. You know, there's a lot of space that isn't
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filled. And so yeah, the engineering of the Death Star itself seems to
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be a little bit nebulous. It feels like a lot of wasted material went
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into this place. And in some ways though, I do think this was
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meant to be the Imperial battle station that moved and you know you could house
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Star destroyers, you know, it was it was going to be the type
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of place you could you know, have you know, ships come in for
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matan maintenance and all that kind of stuff as well, and so well,
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yeah, I mean the thing is, I in my head, right,
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I loved the cross Section books. I think they're amazing, But in my
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head basically, the Death Star, if you will, is sort of like
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an egg where the shell is a certain thickness and everybody sort of exists in
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the shell. Who's the day to day operations of everything? And then you
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have this core. You have to be capable of docking a Star Destroyer in
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there, right, you have to or more than one Star destroyer. You
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have to be capable of docking all of these things. And we've seen the
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scale, how much larger it is than even the Superstar Destroyer. Sure,
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and so I would say there has to be a ton of empty space.
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And just as we're sitting here talking about it, I would argue that you
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would also need a ton of empty space just to keep people as far away
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from whatever radiation is being emitted from the core. Otherwise you're gonna have people.
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You know, your staff is going to have to be frequently replenished.
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I don't know. Those guys just stand right next to the laser beam as
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it comes out, you know, as it joins with the other laser beams,
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and I feel like their life expectancy is at like zero every time that
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happens. I will go ahead and let's write some headcanon right now that every
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time we see another shot of those guys in there, I think we see
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one with the death Star two, and then I think it's one or two
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within the original what I can't recall the whole I apologize. I know I'm
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not a real fan. I can't recall every single shot and head right now.
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But I would say on everythan not at all. Well, I would
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say, guys, we're so sorry, we'll stop doing a Star Wars podcast
12:07
everyone. I would say that every time you see a new shot, it's
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two new people, like one blast and they die like they're just they're basically
12:16
just fried corpses at the end of it, and that's that's the end of
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it for them. But it's a glorious moment, right they're actually sitting there
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hoping, oh, please please let the rebels capitulate. Don't fire the gun,
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don't fire the you know, like, can you imagine the two guys
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that get called Like this feels like something you would see on that Star Wars
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detour sort of thing, like they get the guys get fried every time it
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fires off. And then I was like, Okay, Johnson Miller, you're
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next, and it's like I want it goes me in the laser. Yeah,
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exactly. I mean looking at the cross sections too. There there is
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an incredible amount of this that is just housing machinery, right and the different
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reactors needed to pass or this thing. But at the same time, you
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know, like we said, this is also a place that was meant to
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be something that was a way to take care of this massive star fleet,
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and I think be a place where you could have you know, star destroyers
13:20
fixed, you know, in the outer rim if needed, without them having
13:26
to come home and all of that kind of stuff. And so I do
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think and you get the sense, especially with the first Death Star in the
13:33
original Star Wars, that this is something that they they don't have it all
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figured out yet and everything is just kind of running a little bit, you
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know, maybe lacks of daisical as the word. I had not considered the
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possibility of repair crews on the Death Star. I'm glad you Like, Seriously,
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at no point have I ever thought to myself, well, if they're
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gonna have star destroyers and such in there, they need repair crews. They
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need large numbers of repair crews in there. So basically, maybe the majority
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of the staff when the Death Star really is just maintenance people. It seems
14:13
like maybe not, but it seems like it would need room for that.
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But I come back again, as we're talking about these large maintenance crews and
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servicing star destroyers and tie fighters and all of these different sorts of things,
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because obviously the tie fighters aren't just sitting in star destroyers. They have them
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ready to scramble straight out of the bays. I come back to the detention
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block because isn't the detention block pointless in the era of the Death Star?
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Like who's information are you going to squeeze out? Like, you know,
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how long is it possibly going to take Vader or anyone else for that matter,
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to squeeze enough information out of somebody to know what planet to eradicate,
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or if you're willing to blow up a you know, important world like Aldron
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just as a show of force, just the suspicion of rebellion is enough for
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you to fry the planet? Right, Like, is a detention block even
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serving a real purpose within the context of the Death Star? I think that
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the reason that the tension block exists on the Death Star is that there are
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going to be times where they are going to be taking you know, political
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prisoners. They are going to be taking people to which they're trying to get
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information out of and or uh they're they're maybe just just transporting like they can't
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be seen, uh, you know, willingly killing these people. Uh.
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And and so they bring them on this detention block, they get what information
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they can out of them, and then they you know, do away with
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them maybe later on. So I could see the reason why this this exists.
16:08
You know, I think there's always a reason to have a place to
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hold prisoners for many different reasons. And I think, you know, the
16:22
Death Star is meant to be a place that deters people from doing things that
16:32
they shouldn't, you know, by destroying planets. But at the same time,
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it's also this this massive and enforcement thing where I think you could just
16:41
be taking a certain amount of prisoners with you, uh and bringing them to
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work camps, right and that kind of thing. You know, you take
16:49
enough of the population away, and it could be something that deters the population
16:53
then from rising up against the empire. And so you know, I definitely
16:57
see the reason for you know, having the de tension block for that reason
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as well. So I think there's a few different reasons why you would have
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it. You know, it does like a long block, but you know
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they got a lot of space to fill up. Let me let me give
17:21
you a horrifying possibility here too, because apparently, you know, they're willing
17:25
to put people to death, they're willing to torture people, They're willing to
17:27
put them in cells and everything. We all know that the Death Star would
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also have to have some sort of recycling program. You know they have a
17:37
garbage shoot, yes, but they also have a lot of people to feed.
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Is it possible that these detention cells could also serve as the means to
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soilent Green prisoners up from time to time to serve them to the staff of
17:52
the Death Star because we we've often talked on the program about the fact that
17:55
one of Palpatine's power moves is to create more darkness in the galaxy. And
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what is more horrid than basically taking the bodies of your enemies and feeding them
18:06
to your staff, right, And the staff doesn't need to know. It's
18:08
not like they're sitting there and like, oh, hey, we've got some
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wookies in last week. It's gonna be good eating tonight, right, Like
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I'm talking about like, you know, yes, I'm offering this a joke,
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but I'm also thinking in terms of like, if they have these prisoners
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on there, what if somebody dies on board, do you just toss them
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in the garbage compactor or do they have some other more hideous fate in store
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for them? Uh? You know, I was thinking actually that the Death
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Star probably has to have some sort of hydroponics bay, and you know,
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to have food for this amount of people, right that, you know,
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they they probably have to have some kind of way of creating food like that.
18:57
Although so well, although just so it was cut out of The Phantom
19:03
Menace, although you can still see a vestige of it with Qui Gon reaching
19:08
underneath his robes into one of his supply pouches when they first get to Anakin's
19:12
home. They did have pills that could turn into food, sure, and
19:19
we see that, of course in episode seven we also see that. And
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yeah, so those are places where we actually see that kind of play out
19:30
as well. But I get the feeling like the Empire, in its arrogance,
19:38
would be somebody who, you know, one of the reasons for wanting
19:45
to join the Empire was maybe that they gave you better food, you know,
19:51
it's one of the few ways maybe they cared for their people. So
19:56
I could see that being the case. That would be pretty interesting. And
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again, you just got all the space in the Death Star. I can't
20:03
imagine you know, some sort of massive hydroponics bay on one of the lower
20:07
levels isn't a part of the Death Star, well, one of the inner
20:12
one maybe maybe closer to the core. It's giving off some sort of a
20:19
you know enough, some sort of energy that they can convert into something that
20:25
would enable plants to grow. Sure, you know that that sort of thing.
20:30
Maybe another you know, since since it could go from place to place,
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maybe they just planned to fly over to a planet, suck it,
20:40
drive its resources, and then blow it up so it could prove the horror
20:42
of what they did, or you know, would they really care. I
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mean, they touched on that in the original withh Soca book. We've touched
20:52
on that in a couple of things where the reason there are so many desert
20:55
planets is because the Empire has stripped them of their resources completely and just left
21:00
them as empty husks in their wake. But setting that aside, let's come
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back to part two of the question, which is if there were political prisoners
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on there. Just for the sake of argument, there was even so much
21:15
as one other one than lea. Did they have an obligation to try to
21:18
free those prisoners before they blew up the Death Star? Like let's say to
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Donna sitting there and simultaneously as he figures out, hey, there's this flaw
21:29
in it. There's no way to get in to exploit it. But here's
21:32
this thing which we could use to exploit the flaw that was built into it
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and the reactor, and he discovers a file along the way where he goes,
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oh, no's there could be ten people on there that are innocent.
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Did the rebels have an obligation to hold off on destroying the Death Star until
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they try to get those people out? I don't think so. And I
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think that we can take lessons from history, especially when you think of you
22:02
know, bombing campaigns and World War two and those type of things. When
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you think about the destructive power of the Death Star and what it could do
22:12
and what it could bring on the galaxy, I think the collateral damage of
22:19
a few political prisoners is a small price to pay for billions upon billions upon
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billions of people that you're saving by this thing being destroyed. And I think
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that even those political prisoners would probably agree, and so especially if they were
22:40
ones fighting the Empire, and so, you know, I think that's something
22:45
that we often forget. You know, there are things that are worth dying
22:51
for. And that's that's one of the lessons of Star Wars, right to
22:55
get philosophical for a second. I think that's one of the keys to Star
22:57
Wars, that there are are things that are worth giving our life for.
23:03
Values, there are ideas and freedom itself. Right. You know, here
23:07
in America as we're recording, we just had Memorial Day where we remember those
23:14
who gave their lives for the freedoms that we enjoy here in the United States.
23:19
And we remember them because they were willing to make that ultimate sacrifice.
23:26
And you know, I think that's one of the beauties of the things that
23:29
we've been seeing in the Star Wars series, you know, as they've been
23:33
exploring the depths of the dark times with the Empire, those that were willing
23:41
to rise up and do what it took, even if it took their own
23:47
death. You know, I think the and Or series does that. I
23:49
think the Bad Batch series does that rebels of course does that. You know,
23:53
You've got all of these series that are that are showing us it's it's
23:59
not just that we get our lives for the cause, but these people are
24:02
giving their lives for people they don't even know, you know, to have
24:06
freedom. And I think there's something incredibly beautiful in that. And so that
24:10
would be my really philosophical answer to that question of whether or not not saving
24:17
those people was Okay. Well, I mean I agree with you specifically,
24:22
specifically because in the cause of rebellion in Star Wars, you can easily make
24:27
the argument that to your point about these people agreeing about their sacrifice being appropriate,
24:34
when they joined the rebellion against the Empire, they knew that death was
24:38
a possible outcome exactly, and if they were willing to go on missions that
24:44
led to their potential capture and death, then even if you don't send them
24:51
a message explaining it beforehand, they would be of a mindset to say,
24:56
oh, you have to blow this thing up to save everybody else. Well,
25:00
I would have done that. That's why I was out there fighting.
25:03
Right. Uncle Lowen would not have been happy about the decision, right,
25:07
But Uncle Lowen most likely was not going to end up in a detention block
25:11
on the Death Star because he didn't want anything to do with what was going
25:15
on. It's so far away from here. It's not my fight, it's
25:18
not anything that I want anything to do with. I'm just going to live
25:22
my life in exactly, you know, in the manner that I can,
25:26
which in and of itself, I mean, that's a whole other philosophical thing
25:29
we've explored before too. But you know, you can't fault Owen for feeling
25:33
that, you know, Hey, I'm pretty advanced in age. There's not
25:36
much I can do physically to go out there and do these sorts of things
25:41
from Tato Wine well, and I think if you're not notwithstanding, I think
25:47
that that's also one of those things, you know, you think of one
25:49
specifically, right, And I know you don't love the beginning, but that's
25:52
one of the places where I think that the conundrum than that and or Fax
26:00
is right, do I do I kill this guy and get away so they
26:04
can bring this information to the rebellion with the hope of saving who the entire
26:11
galaxy? And those are the type of questions that we're asking, right,
26:15
you know, And and that are being asked. I think in these series
26:19
that we're watching, and even that Star Wars itself, UH, in its
26:23
small way does bring up and that's what makes this, I think, a
26:32
series that continues that people keep going back to because I think there's so much
26:37
to mine. Uh and George knew that and it's something that I think we're
26:42
all very aware of as we watch this series. Well, I definitely want
26:48
to say that, especially with part two of the question where we're talking about
26:52
whether the you know that the political prisoners would agree with it. The idea
26:56
of in you know, in a sense, or good guys being on board
26:59
the death start at that. I remember specifically an old Expanded Universe book I
27:03
believe it was called Children of the Jedi, where there was a character that
27:08
advanced this idea. And if I'm getting the title wrong, I know there
27:12
was a book though, where Luke encountered someone who said specifically he was responsible
27:22
for the deaths of people who were simply in the empire. Basically, it
27:27
was a big equivocation where it was, you know, it gets back to
27:30
the whole Clerk's argument about like, oh, those contractors knew what was going
27:34
on when they were working on the Death Star sort of thing. But the
27:38
idea was that well, only Tarkian and Vader were really the most evil ones
27:42
on there in a couple of the generals. Everybody else was just doing their
27:45
job, and it you know, I'm sure that it's not as simple as
27:52
I'm portraying it, but I remember bristling at it at the time because this
27:56
character was laying a heavy guilt trip on Luke about it, and I was
28:00
saying basically what you and I are saying here, which is like, what
28:04
were they supposed to do? Let it that start blow up you have in
28:07
four and basically end the rebellion at that moment. That's worse. That's actually
28:11
a worse outcome for everybody. And it's like, you know, I'm sorry
28:17
that I feel that way sometimes, I guess because like I can sort of
28:22
see it, but at the same time I see it as a hideous overrationalization
28:26
of everything to sit there and think that the rebels in that moment had any
28:30
other choice at all, right, exactly, that would be like saying,
28:36
you know, at the Battle of Endoor, they should not have blown up
28:37
the superstart a story because there was a janitor on Deck four twelve that was
28:42
just there making ends meet, and it's like, I mean, I know
28:48
it seems heartless. I know there will be people that bristle at this,
28:49
but you can't avoid it in a situation like that. Yeah, and that
28:55
you know, that's why you have people that are making those decisions and they
29:02
have sleepless nights. They're not happy about it. Well, yeah, the
29:04
only people would be happy about it are the bad guys because they're monsters and
29:08
they don't care exactly. Well, look, I think that this is the
29:15
thing that is so important about this whole discussion is that in the end too,
29:21
and it comes directly from the Harry Potter series. You know, Dumbledore
29:27
says this, I believe, to Harry as they're talking and he says that,
29:30
you know, there are things worse than death when he's talking about Voldemort.
29:34
I believe it's in their conversations and the Half Blood prints, and you
29:40
know, I think that that's such an incredibly interesting thing. And I think
29:42
that that's also in some ways the way in which the Star Wars universe sees
29:48
the world right, that there are things worse than death. And I really
29:56
appreciate the way in which, you know, we talk about these issues,
30:03
and it's one of the great things about Star Wars that we can have these
30:06
really in depth conversations right about things that seems silly, but they lead to,
30:17
you know, big conversations, and that's the greatness of the series when
30:22
it's done well. And so it also makes me excited for all the things
30:27
that hopefully are to come in Star Wars that lead us to more conversations.
30:33
At the end of the day, it's the classic discussion of good versus evil
30:37
and at what point do you go too far in one direction or the other
30:42
before things get blurred and the responsibility of your actions becomes too weighty. Because
30:49
I honestly think that there is an argument to say that the Jedi Order itself
30:56
winds up backed in to this terrible bureaucratic role that they have specifically because it
31:04
would have been you know, I could project myself further back in time and
31:11
say that they tried the complete non involvement route because they didn't want to make
31:15
these difficult calls because they felt it wasn't true to their calling. And then
31:19
they realized that that was the place that chaos came from, you know,
31:26
without them taking any sort of direct action and all the ella. Anyway,
31:33
while we could debate these sorts of things until we are green in the face,
31:38
Matt, if anybody wants to discuss the merits of the Death Star's inner
31:45
workings or how many cell blocks they may have had on board, because we
31:49
know that Princess Leah was on cell block AA twenty three, does that mean
31:53
there was an AA zero one through twenty two where there were one hundred aas
32:00
sprinkled throughout the Death Star? And was it possibly just when a stormtrooper got
32:05
drunk. That's what they were really built for to through the middle. That's
32:07
what I was going to ask too. Is this really just where we have
32:10
our our meetings for the Stormtroopers? Yeah? Right, yeah, somebody gets
32:17
in a brawl in the mess hall the troopers in there, that sort of
32:21
thing. Yeah. But then going sort of in the Simpsons route with the
32:25
Treehouse of Horror episode that they had, if you have repete offender stormtroopers,
32:30
those are the ones that get turned into the food for the mess hall,
32:32
and you know, they just get put into a big blender and thrown through
32:37
and everything. I mean, it's a great way to reduce reuse and recycle.
32:39
But if people want to reach out, rediscuss and rediscover certain things with
32:44
you online, Matt, where can they find you? Well, reach out
32:47
and touch someone on social media under the name Matt Rushing zero two. You
32:52
can find me all over the place. You can also find me here on
32:54
the network with owl posts talking about every chapter of the Harry Potter series One
32:59
Chapter Time with Drea Kaufman. Over on the TFM network, you'll find me
33:02
doing a bunch of shows. One is a general keep show talking about all
33:07
of the franchises that we love, and John has a frequent guests over there,
33:10
so you can check that out. We've had some great crossovers too,
33:14
as we've been talking about some recent Star Wars editions. You can also find
33:21
me over on the TFM network on shows like Literary Tracks, The or Warp
33:25
five, The Artific Tango, and Saddle Up. But John, where can
33:30
people find you? Well, Gosh, you can't find me anywhere because I'm
33:36
more an idea than a person. But if you chanted the name Kessel Junkie
33:40
online, I will manifest myself in various different ways. But you can also
33:45
find me co hosting a show here on the network called House lights where we
33:50
look at the work of directors. I'm still campaigning for House of Neil Breen,
33:53
but you know, it's an ongoing conversation. And like you said,
33:58
I love doing the crossover episodes with you over on the six oh two Club,
34:01
and I can't wait to discuss for Snyder cuts, the completely renamed not
34:07
special editions, longer r rated cuts of Rebel Moon, which I sincerely hope
34:12
are better. I think that's the official title. I think that's the official
34:15
title. I hope they're better. Yes, I think that's exactly Rebel Moon
34:19
Part one could be improved. Rebel Moon Part two. Please let this be
34:22
watchable. So now that I've angered every possible Snyder fan in existence is listening
34:28
right now. I love him, guys, I love him. Okay,
34:30
I was just disappointed. You can go ahead and count on us to be
34:34
setting the old dvr. Does anybody still have those setting the old dvr to
34:39
catch all of the past Star Wars shows that were aired on network television back
34:45
in the day, back at the Temple, So, Master Rushing, I
34:50
believe it is time to close these negotiations, John, negotiations are close.
35:02
Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.