Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #384 Sleep Training - A Conversation With Carly Grubb

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#384 Sleep Training - A Conversation With Carly Grubb · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
0:07
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.
0:10
Speaker 2: Now when in actual reality it was never going to
0:14
Speaker 2: work for me. But there's like if there's no money
0:17
Speaker 2: to be made by an industry that only continues on
0:22
Speaker 2: the basis that it can fixes.
0:24
Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My mum
0:27
Speaker 1: and dad.
0:28
Speaker 3: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson. Very excited about today.
0:31
Speaker 3: We've got a special guest to talk about sleep training
0:34
Speaker 3: and the good, the bad, and the ugly around the
0:37
Speaker 3: sleep training idea. Actually there's not much good, so mainly
0:40
Speaker 3: the bad. He with Kylie, my wife and mum to
0:43
Speaker 3: our six kids, and we're excited to introduce you to
0:47
Speaker 3: Carlie grub. Carli is the founder and managing director of
0:50
Speaker 3: Little Sparklers, home to the Beyond Sleep Training Project. Hey, Carly,
0:55
Speaker 3: thanks for joining us today.
0:57
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. It's real honor to be here.
0:59
Speaker 3: So this this is a highly contentious conversation. Well sorry,
1:02
Speaker 3: we don't need to make it highly contentious, but there
1:04
Speaker 3: are some people who do get very contentious about this
1:06
Speaker 3: particular topic. Let's start right at the very start. For
1:10
Speaker 3: any parents who haven't heard of it what is sleep training?
1:13
Speaker 2: So sleep training is basically there's a range of methods
1:16
Speaker 2: that get used, but the whole idea is to basically
1:19
Speaker 2: make your baby sleep independently, put themselves to sleep, keep
1:23
Speaker 2: themselves asleep, and not need any input from another human.
1:28
Speaker 3: So I'm going to take my PhD hat off for
1:30
Speaker 3: a moment and just be the dad that I was
1:32
Speaker 3: twenty years ago when I was falling apart. Well sorry,
1:35
Speaker 3: I wasn't falling apart, but when I was getting it
1:36
Speaker 3: completely wrong with my daughter. And I'm going to hear
1:39
Speaker 3: somebody say teaching a baby to sleep independently without any
1:41
Speaker 3: input from another adult or any other person, and I'm
1:43
Speaker 3: going to go give me some of that, please, Like
1:47
Speaker 3: I'm tired, say totally that was.
1:49
Speaker 2: Like with my first baby. So that's actually how I
1:51
Speaker 2: came to all of this was that I went for
1:52
Speaker 2: sleep training path because I'm super wakeful baby, so I
1:56
Speaker 2: know sleep to birth deprivation on like an intimate level.
1:59
Speaker 2: And it really does sound like a great thing to do,
2:02
Speaker 2: Like who wouldn't want that?
2:04
Speaker 3: Like it?
2:04
Speaker 2: You know, it's sold as being the healthy way to
2:07
Speaker 2: manage sleep for your family, and it's got a compelling
2:12
Speaker 2: argument when you don't understand the implications in behind it.
2:16
Speaker 2: So what do its proponents say are the benefits of
2:19
Speaker 2: sleep training.
2:20
Speaker 3: Other than the family gets to sleep.
2:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, So largely the idea is that people will say
2:25
Speaker 2: that this is the way to build healthy sleep habits
2:27
Speaker 2: for life, for their baby and for the whole family.
2:30
Speaker 2: And sleep, as we know, is a basic human need.
2:33
Speaker 2: So of course the idea of getting everybody more sleep
2:37
Speaker 2: seems so logical that really oftentimes that's about the level
2:42
Speaker 2: of the surface that gets scratched before people dive right
2:45
Speaker 2: on into sleep training. So that's yeah, it's an easy
2:48
Speaker 2: argument to make, I guess.
2:49
Speaker 3: So there are some people out there who have written
2:51
Speaker 3: some really influential books on this whole sleep training thing,
2:53
Speaker 3: people who are talking about how we can save our
2:55
Speaker 3: sanity by sleeping more and teaching the kids to do that.
2:59
Speaker 3: Australian and overseas. It's a very very marketable idea and
3:05
Speaker 3: these people have done very well from selling this. What
3:08
Speaker 3: are the concerns with sleep training?
3:11
Speaker 2: Well, basically, it's the whole idea that, first of all,
3:14
Speaker 2: that it's something that's needed for your baby to be healthy,
3:17
Speaker 2: and so for people to understand that actually what your
3:21
Speaker 2: baby needs is response, and that growing brain actually benefits
3:27
Speaker 2: from that nurturing response that you're providing them. But sleep
3:30
Speaker 2: training kind of really downplays that and makes out like
3:34
Speaker 2: it's an optional extra or a want, whereas your baby's
3:37
Speaker 2: actually asking only for what they need from you, and
3:41
Speaker 2: that is care right through the twenty four hour period.
3:44
Speaker 2: It just doesn't stop when the sun goes down. And
3:47
Speaker 2: so I guess the danger there lies in the fact
3:50
Speaker 2: that automatically we start to disconnect from what our baby
3:55
Speaker 2: is actually communicating to us in terms of their genuine needs,
3:59
Speaker 2: and we start to put boundaries around that, which brings
4:02
Speaker 2: in this level of disconnection between what can be previously
4:06
Speaker 2: a really synchronous relationship that people have built with their child.
4:10
Speaker 2: And as that breakdown begins, it can have a really
4:14
Speaker 2: detrimental effect on your ability to pay attention to what
4:16
Speaker 2: your baby's trying to communicate to you in general. So that,
4:20
Speaker 2: for me, is the first real risk that we see
4:24
Speaker 2: when people go down the sleep trading path with their baby.
4:27
Speaker 4: It's interesting, as I'm listening to you, Cali, I'm going
4:29
Speaker 4: back twenty two years now to you know, parenting started
4:33
Speaker 4: for us. We've just celebrated our eldest birthday, and we
4:37
Speaker 4: were talking about some of the memories we had from
4:39
Speaker 4: those early years and early days of her birth and
4:45
Speaker 4: Justin and I, as he's eluded, we had many sleepless
4:49
Speaker 4: nights and at the time, control crying was the thing,
4:54
Speaker 4: and everybody was telling us we needed to do it
4:57
Speaker 4: for our sanity, and so we actually decided to we
5:00
Speaker 4: would go ahead and try. And I remember that one night,
5:04
Speaker 4: that's all I last did, one night where Justin literally
5:08
Speaker 4: had to pin me to the bed because my baby
5:10
Speaker 4: was crying and my heart.
5:13
Speaker 3: Was breaking to be with her.
5:17
Speaker 4: But everybody was telling me that she didn't need that,
5:19
Speaker 4: that I just needed to allow her to work this
5:22
Speaker 4: out and realize that she could just go to sleep
5:24
Speaker 4: by herself. And I'm just so grateful that in spite
5:29
Speaker 4: of the lack of sleep that we had, that we
5:32
Speaker 4: kind of just went with our gut and decided that,
5:37
Speaker 4: you know, at the end of the day, this was
5:38
Speaker 4: not going to last forever, and that my baby just
5:41
Speaker 4: needed me, and that has built a lifelong relationship that
5:45
Speaker 4: we have with her that we love and cherish.
5:47
Speaker 3: So I'm just going to jump in here. I don't
5:49
Speaker 3: remember ever pinning you to the bed, especially when our
5:51
Speaker 3: baby was crying. You made that sound really bad.
5:54
Speaker 4: You had to hold me down.
5:55
Speaker 3: I don't remember. You don't remember.
5:56
Speaker 2: I really don't remember, but probably blanked it out from
5:59
Speaker 2: the memory for the sound.
6:00
Speaker 3: Never you really had to hold me back. I was
6:02
Speaker 3: just a mess. I was sobbing in the bed. I'm
6:05
Speaker 3: assuming that you told me that I needed to keep
6:07
Speaker 3: you from doing that.
6:08
Speaker 4: Oh well, we made a decision that we were going
6:10
Speaker 4: to do it, but I just I couldn't handle it.
6:13
Speaker 3: I wouldn't.
6:13
Speaker 1: I just can't.
6:14
Speaker 3: I can't imagine I did that. Wow. But I do
6:17
Speaker 3: remember another night with a different child. We were living
6:19
Speaker 3: in we were living in a different place then, and
6:22
Speaker 3: we had several children, and I remember we tried it again.
6:26
Speaker 3: After many years and several children, we decided to try
6:28
Speaker 3: it again because this child was just killing us with
6:31
Speaker 3: her inability to sleep. And you went and locked yourself
6:34
Speaker 3: in the car outside, and you could still hear a
6:36
Speaker 3: screaming from outside, and I remember just thinking this, this
6:39
Speaker 3: is crazy. This is not what we're supposed to be doing.
6:41
Speaker 3: This is not how this should work. Now. Of course,
6:44
Speaker 3: proponents of sleep training are probably going to say, well,
6:46
Speaker 3: you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to you're supposed to
6:47
Speaker 3: go to them once they become really really upset. But
6:49
Speaker 3: I guess, Cali, what's the what's the deal here?
6:53
Speaker 2: Yeah? See, this is the thing. Like, it's like anyone
6:55
Speaker 2: who doesn't feel like it, you know, feels right to them,
6:59
Speaker 2: they're either told they need to be stronger or like
7:01
Speaker 2: it's some kind of weakness that you actually physically, viscerally
7:06
Speaker 2: cannot stand that sound of your baby crying, as though
7:10
Speaker 2: that's not, on a human level, actually compelling you to act.
7:14
Speaker 2: So there's that kind of argument around it as well.
7:17
Speaker 2: But then there's also this other side where if it
7:20
Speaker 2: doesn't work out, there's a really common blame game that
7:23
Speaker 2: gets placed at your feet. And I, as someone who
7:26
Speaker 2: was a sleep training failure, felt that acutely, even though
7:29
Speaker 2: I was actually supremely sleep deprived, even worse so from
7:33
Speaker 2: having been through the sleep training process and to then
7:37
Speaker 2: I was in the depths of postnatal depression and desperately lost.
7:42
Speaker 2: And unfortunately, the way that played out was I was
7:45
Speaker 2: almost blamed for my failure to make it work, as
7:50
Speaker 2: though I hadn't tried hard enough or I hadn't done it.
7:53
Speaker 2: A particular way, or if I'd just done this it
7:56
Speaker 2: would have worked, when in actual reality it was never
8:00
Speaker 2: going to work for me. But there's like, if there's
8:03
Speaker 2: no money to be made by an industry that only
8:07
Speaker 2: continues on the basis that it can fix this for
8:11
Speaker 2: your family, I don't sell a good story.
8:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, it kind of reminds me of the whole issue
8:16
Speaker 3: around time out, Like there's some studies out there that
8:18
Speaker 3: suggest that time out can actually be pretty useful. But
8:20
Speaker 3: for the most part, anyone who tries to.
8:22
Speaker 4: If I lock myself in the room, that's right.
8:24
Speaker 3: Anyone who actually tries time out goes this is hard.
8:27
Speaker 3: I'm not doing it right. This doesn't work. I'm not
8:28
Speaker 3: getting the results, and the proponents of time out keep
8:31
Speaker 3: on saying no, no, no, here's our latest parenting program. This
8:34
Speaker 3: is the thing to do to make it work. I've
8:37
Speaker 3: spoken with the research behind this, and it just it
8:41
Speaker 3: doesn't make sense in real life. They've got some statistics
8:45
Speaker 3: that make it look like it can, but it doesn't
8:47
Speaker 3: make sense in real life. I'm hearing exactly the same
8:48
Speaker 3: thing with the sleep training. So after the break, we're
8:50
Speaker 3: going to continue our conversation with Karlie Grubb. The founder
8:53
Speaker 3: and managing director of Little Sparklers, which is home to
8:56
Speaker 3: Beyond Sleep Training, and we're going to talk about what
8:58
Speaker 3: is beyond sleep training, what the best alternatives are, and
9:01
Speaker 3: what we do in those tricky situations where sometimes we
9:04
Speaker 3: just need some structure because we literally can't do it all.
9:08
Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcasts.
9:11
Speaker 5: Are Screens Creating Tension at home, tweens, teens and Screens
9:15
Speaker 5: is a webinar to guide families to healthy, safe superscreen solutions.
9:20
Speaker 5: Bye today at happyfamilies dot com, dot au slash shop.
9:24
Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time
9:27
Speaker 4: poor parent who just wants answers now. And today we're
9:29
Speaker 4: talking with Carlie Grubb.
9:30
Speaker 3: Carlie is the founder and managing director of Little Sparklers,
9:34
Speaker 3: home to Beyond Sleep Training or the Beyond Sleep Training Project.
9:38
Speaker 3: I should say so, Carlie. We've talked about what sleep
9:41
Speaker 3: training is. We've shared our horror stories about when we've
9:43
Speaker 3: tried to do the sleep training stuff or the controlled crying.
9:46
Speaker 4: Well, we've also touched on the guilt that parents fail
9:49
Speaker 4: when they try this and it doesn't work.
9:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, what are the better alternatives, Carlie, Because beyond sleep
9:53
Speaker 3: training sounds good, right, It absolutely does.
9:57
Speaker 2: But the thing is is I'm not going to give
9:58
Speaker 2: anyone at one size it's all fixer approach, because that's
10:01
Speaker 2: actually the whole point is that there are ways we
10:04
Speaker 2: can come at life without sleep training. But it's not
10:08
Speaker 2: like it looks the same for every family, and I
10:10
Speaker 2: think that's the beauty of it. You can take what
10:12
Speaker 2: works for your family, adapt it, give it a try,
10:15
Speaker 2: and change it as your baby grows and learns and develops,
10:20
Speaker 2: or circumstances change for your family as well. So for
10:23
Speaker 2: many of us in the group, one thing that is
10:27
Speaker 2: a huge part of actually being able to move beyond
10:29
Speaker 2: sleep training is first getting a handle on what is
10:33
Speaker 2: normal infant and toddless sleep. And by doing that, even
10:36
Speaker 2: though sometimes knowing it's normal that's certainly not going to
10:39
Speaker 2: stop you being any less tired or exhausted, it is
10:42
Speaker 2: actually still crucial in being able to pinpoint where the
10:46
Speaker 2: problems actually liee for you to solve, because as long
10:49
Speaker 2: as you're looking for a solution and pinning all your
10:54
Speaker 2: hopes on that solution being around getting your baby to
10:56
Speaker 2: sleep better, probably going to be sadly just pointed because
11:01
Speaker 2: being a wakeful baby or needing someone to help them
11:04
Speaker 2: to find and maintain sleep. That's actually normal behavior for
11:08
Speaker 2: a baby, and so if that's where you're thinking all
11:11
Speaker 2: your solutions lie, generally you're up for a bit of disappointment.
11:14
Speaker 2: But the good news is when you stop fighting against
11:17
Speaker 2: that normal behavior, you actually open your mind to being
11:20
Speaker 2: able to come up with clever solutions that allow you
11:24
Speaker 2: to meet those normal needs of your baby while also
11:27
Speaker 2: meeting your own needs and the needs of your whole
11:29
Speaker 2: family around you. And so for many of us, that
11:32
Speaker 2: involves being a bit more flexible around our sleeping arrangements,
11:36
Speaker 2: keeping babies nice and close by rather than insisting that
11:39
Speaker 2: they're off in their own nursery, which actually has threefold
11:42
Speaker 2: benefits too, because it room sharing does reduce the risk
11:46
Speaker 2: of SUTI and SIDS, and it also just limits that
11:49
Speaker 2: physical exertion that you need to go and tend to
11:51
Speaker 2: their nighttime needs. And a third bonus that many people
11:55
Speaker 2: underestimate is that it actually is really important to maintaining
11:58
Speaker 2: your breastmelt supply. So cutting nut time feeds, well, it
12:02
Speaker 2: might sound like you're going to get a lot more sleep,
12:04
Speaker 2: a lot of people soon find out that if they
12:07
Speaker 2: purposely cut those feeds early, their breast milk supply can tank,
12:12
Speaker 2: and if breastfeeding is important to you, it's a really
12:14
Speaker 2: important understanding to come to that those nighttime feeds can
12:17
Speaker 2: be crucial in maintaining your supply. Also being able to
12:22
Speaker 2: figure out ways to get contact maps, because lots of
12:25
Speaker 2: babies don't like to be put down, so learning about
12:27
Speaker 2: baby wearing can be a very helpful tool for people,
12:31
Speaker 2: and finding ways to get partners involved so that all
12:35
Speaker 2: of the nighttime nurturing isn't necessarily heavily on one person's shoulders,
12:40
Speaker 2: poritizing that.
12:41
Speaker 3: I'm just listening to what you're saying, and I'm remembering
12:44
Speaker 3: when we made the decision, and we did it quite late.
12:47
Speaker 3: But when we made the decision to bring our kids
12:49
Speaker 3: into our room, we tried co sleeping. It never really
12:52
Speaker 3: worked for us. We just found that kids wanted too
12:54
Speaker 3: much of the bed and we.
12:56
Speaker 4: Don't understand it stuff.
13:00
Speaker 3: She's right, but but just having them in the same
13:03
Speaker 3: room as us, And there's enough evidence now to say
13:05
Speaker 3: that that's probably sufficient. Like, if parents want to co sleep,
13:09
Speaker 3: that's great, but the evidence shows just having them in
13:11
Speaker 3: the same room. And I loved how you said it
13:14
Speaker 3: reduces I can't remember the words that you used, but
13:16
Speaker 3: it kind of reduces the amount of exertion that you've
13:18
Speaker 3: got to put out in the nighttime. Once the baby
13:22
Speaker 3: was in the same room, I became much more involved
13:24
Speaker 3: in the nighttime process. I would actually wake up and
13:26
Speaker 3: get the baby out of the cot and hand her
13:28
Speaker 3: to Kylie in the bed because I only had to
13:30
Speaker 3: take three steps until we started doing that, though for
13:33
Speaker 3: our older kids, I would just lay there and pretend
13:35
Speaker 3: that I couldn't hear anything, that I was fast asleep.
13:37
Speaker 3: I tend to be asleep so that Kylie would do
13:40
Speaker 3: it because it was too much exertion, exertion at that
13:42
Speaker 3: hour of the night. I was exhausted. I can't imagine
13:45
Speaker 3: how Kylie must have felt at the time. I'm not
13:47
Speaker 3: looking I'm coming off really badly in this podcast. I
13:50
Speaker 3: pinned you down, I sent you out to the car,
13:51
Speaker 3: and now I'm so lazy. Oh look, I'm a.
13:54
Speaker 4: Really slow learner. And it literally took us baby number
13:57
Speaker 4: six before I worked out a few of these things.
14:00
Speaker 3: And that's why we're all for big families. Just keep
14:02
Speaker 3: going to you get it right, just keep trying.
14:05
Speaker 4: But one of the things written till then, one of
14:07
Speaker 4: the things that really stands out to me was, I'm
14:09
Speaker 4: listening to the things that you're saying. Baby number four,
14:11
Speaker 4: I wore her for pretty much the first six months.
14:14
Speaker 3: I remember that sling.
14:15
Speaker 4: That changed everything. But then I had a cesaian with
14:19
Speaker 4: baby number five and I couldn't wear her, and that
14:21
Speaker 4: kind of, you know, changed things again. But baby number six,
14:25
Speaker 4: she actually slept in the living room while I was
14:27
Speaker 4: downstairs during the day, and then she slept in my
14:29
Speaker 4: room at night times.
14:31
Speaker 3: Our room room, Sancha's your room. Just was wondering.
14:35
Speaker 4: I didn't wear her a lot. She actually didn't like
14:37
Speaker 4: being in the sling, but she slept wherever I was,
14:41
Speaker 4: and that had such a huge impact as well. She
14:43
Speaker 4: was such a peaceful baby because she was just in
14:46
Speaker 4: my space.
14:46
Speaker 3: It's not funny that you've used the word peaceful with
14:48
Speaker 3: that particular child. She was anything but peacefulness anyway. So
14:53
Speaker 3: Carl's let's talk about this. What about in cases where
14:56
Speaker 3: where there are triplets or quads or other situations where
15:00
Speaker 3: routine really really matters. And I mean, you can see
15:03
Speaker 3: the appeal with sleep training when you've got these kids multiples,
15:07
Speaker 3: when you've got multiples, it's like, I just need routine,
15:10
Speaker 3: I just need structure. How do you respond when people
15:13
Speaker 3: bring that up to you.
15:14
Speaker 2: Oh, it's absolutely and you can so see why the appeal.
15:18
Speaker 2: Once again, the appeals there like we're human. That makes
15:21
Speaker 2: so much sense. So don't get me wrong on that
15:23
Speaker 2: for anybody listening along finding all of the appeal in that.
15:26
Speaker 2: But the reality remains that you're dealing with small humans,
15:30
Speaker 2: whole humans, so multiples. We've got families with multiples in
15:34
Speaker 2: our group, and they do require unique support and care.
15:40
Speaker 2: And a big thing that stands out here is that
15:42
Speaker 2: our culture generally isn't set up well to provide the
15:45
Speaker 2: kind of supports families actually deserve to be able to
15:48
Speaker 2: parent their babes in the way that they actually need.
15:51
Speaker 2: So while we're dealing in realities that aren't ideal, we
15:55
Speaker 2: have to recognize that that's not on the babies. The
15:59
Speaker 2: fact that they still need all of these things is
16:02
Speaker 2: not actually any fault on their part. And so for
16:06
Speaker 2: our families with multiples, often a big component is rallying
16:11
Speaker 2: support crews. And the thing is is some kids thrive
16:14
Speaker 2: on routines, but you will soon know if you've got
16:18
Speaker 2: one of those kids because it's something you can actually achieve,
16:22
Speaker 2: whereas other babies are more like boxes of chocolates and
16:25
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter what you're going to do, you're never
16:28
Speaker 2: going to know what you're going to get on any
16:30
Speaker 2: given day. And in our families with multiples, it's quite
16:33
Speaker 2: common for one or two babies to be relatively chill
16:38
Speaker 2: and go with the flow and fall into somebody's routine,
16:42
Speaker 2: and then there's usually a standout character who's going to
16:44
Speaker 2: do it their own way always. And so for our families,
16:47
Speaker 2: it's knowing that they have that flexibility to try things
16:50
Speaker 2: out and know that these stages where it's really messy
16:55
Speaker 2: and really intense do pass, because, for example, four months,
17:00
Speaker 2: this is a really common time for people to be
17:01
Speaker 2: freaking out about their baby and their sleep, and it
17:05
Speaker 2: coincides with the time where they're still needing a fair
17:08
Speaker 2: amount of day sleep, but it's starting to reduce a
17:11
Speaker 2: little and they're waking up a lot at nighttime and whatnot,
17:14
Speaker 2: and their intense needs are huge, and if you're imagining
17:18
Speaker 2: that this is going to continue on for many months
17:20
Speaker 2: to come, it's hard not to freak out, going, wow,
17:23
Speaker 2: how is ever? Going to be okay, And yet in
17:26
Speaker 2: actual reality, over those months, the number of naps reduces
17:29
Speaker 2: naturally and all of those things, And so it's not
17:33
Speaker 2: like any routine you nail is going to be the
17:36
Speaker 2: routine that sticks through anyway. So it's having that understanding
17:39
Speaker 2: it's okay to be flexible with it around what works.
17:42
Speaker 3: For you that is the annoying thing about kids.
17:45
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know that just participating in this conversation and
17:51
Speaker 4: having a dialogue around all of this has the potential
17:56
Speaker 4: to just alleviate so much of the stress and guilt
17:59
Speaker 4: that parents, especially new parents feel when they're kind of
18:03
Speaker 4: juggling all of these things and thinking, why is my
18:05
Speaker 4: baby not doing? What's you know, my best friend down
18:07
Speaker 4: the roads babies doing. We had a baby friends of
18:10
Speaker 4: ours who had a baby and literally slept through the
18:13
Speaker 4: state of origin with ten adults in the room, like
18:15
Speaker 4: going crazy. My baby never did that. But understanding that
18:20
Speaker 4: we're all different and our babies are no different from that,
18:23
Speaker 4: and that we can just be okay with what's going
18:27
Speaker 4: on is so powerful. So I'm hopeful that this conversation
18:31
Speaker 4: helps everybody as.
18:32
Speaker 3: They wish we'd learn about it in the early days,
18:34
Speaker 3: would have been so different for us. Yeah, seat of
18:37
Speaker 3: baby number six.
18:38
Speaker 4: If people are wanting more information, where can they go?
18:41
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you for asking. So we have got a
18:44
Speaker 2: free peer support group, which is the Beyond Soup Training
18:46
Speaker 2: Project on Facebook. We just managed to get one hundred
18:49
Speaker 2: and fifty thousand members last week. We've been celebrating and
18:53
Speaker 2: we also run a charity called Little Sparklers where we're
18:56
Speaker 2: trying to fill up that website with useful resources that
18:58
Speaker 2: are evidence space written by experts for families. And we've
19:02
Speaker 2: also launched the Beyond Sleep Training Podcast this year where
19:06
Speaker 2: we're sharing real tales from real families so people can
19:09
Speaker 2: actually really get a handle on how life can look
19:12
Speaker 2: without sleep training in their family or if they're like
19:16
Speaker 2: me and actually have sleep train in the past, and
19:18
Speaker 2: how you can kind of move from there into finding
19:21
Speaker 2: other ways of working sleep in your family.
19:24
Speaker 3: Well, we'll make sure that we link to all of
19:25
Speaker 3: those sites in the show notes. Karlie Grubb, founder managing director,
19:28
Speaker 3: Little Sparklers and home to the Beyond Sleep Training Project,
19:31
Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us.
19:33
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. It's great to get
19:35
Speaker 2: the message out there.
19:35
Speaker 3: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
19:38
Speaker 3: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer, and if
19:40
Speaker 3: you'd like more and fo about making your family happier,
19:43
Speaker 3: please visit happy families dot com. Do a you