Latest / After Maghrib 🌙 / Do ONLY Shia Muslims get to HEAVEN?! (ft. Sayed Zafar Abbas)

Transcript

Do ONLY Shia Muslims get to HEAVEN?! (ft. Sayed Zafar Abbas) · After Maghrib 🌙

• 0:00
  Oh yeah, don't often. Sometimes.
• 0:03
  It take a few minutes. I'm I'm the king, I'm the king
• 0:05
  waffler. Just jump in with no plans.
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  Of course, that's the Allah similar.
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  Good to go. Salaam Alaikum.
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  Welcome back to the aftermath of the podcast.
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  Hope you're well, Inshallah. I have a question for you,
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  brothers and sisters. We are now at a point where we
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  have 8 billion people in this planet, on this planet.
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  Let me start again. I said in this planet Salaam
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  Alaikumaram to Allah, welcome back to after Magadan brothers
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  sisters, we now have 8 billion people on planet earth and
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  within 20 years we expect that number to reach 10 billion
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  people, of course of which maybe 10 to 15% of them would call
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  themselves Muslims. But how can it be where you have
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  a Lord? So must for like a last panel to
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  Allah where the mass majority of people are punished or
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  admonished for not believing in the Illah Illallah Muhammad
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  Rasool Allah. This is a question which we are
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  going to dive deep into today and many facets surrounding it.
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  Is salvation only there for Muslims, dare I say even Shia?
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  Or can others enter Paradise? And can others reap the rewards,
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  the benefits of Allah's panel to Allah's mercy in this life and
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  in the hereafter as well? Of course, when we talk about
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  religion, we talk about truth. Truth that was sent with Islam.
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  Allah says in the Quran that he created this world.
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  Bill Hack and in the same way Rasulullah Muhammad sallallahu
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  alaihiwalu Salaam came to this world and his primary mission
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  was Huck. And in the same way when he
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  stood on Jabulal Qabis and he said to the pagans, he said that
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  if I told you behind this mountain was a caravan
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  approaching, would you believe me?
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  They said of course you are Rasulullah until Sadiq al.
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  I mean, you are the the truthful and the trustworthy.
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  Truth is a defining factor which we're going to be talking a lot
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  about in today's discussion. So let's kick off inshallah.
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  Sitting beside me as always, the man said.
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  I live all the way. Salaam alaikum.
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  How are you doing, brother? Al Hamdulillah Wal speaking
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  about the truth, we can't not say Ali Omar al Haqqaal Ali
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  Well, you mentioned the point. You said, you know there's 8
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  billion people currently on planet Earth currently, right?
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  So pan Allah, Allah allowed us to of the 8 billion.
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  This is side by side, week by week on the aftermath of podcast
• 2:29
  bro that's that. Proper romantic.
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  I miss you bro. I miss you too.
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  Like how you keeping? I'm good, it's hot.
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  I'm feeling like Floyd in this Mayweather.
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  Do you know what I mean? So just trying to keep trying to
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  keep cool, man. Hamdul, I can't complain.
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  I'm beside for today's conversation, we have a
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  fantastic guest. We do someone we've been waiting
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  to bring on to after Mohab for quite some time.
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  And Al Hamdallah, someone who I would, I'd say is more than just
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  a scholar and a teacher to us. But in many ways, I call him an
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  elder brother, someone for for over a decade I've looked up to,
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  especially online. He's been educating our whole
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  generation for a very long time. And that is none other than say,
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  Zafra Abbas, Naki Islam, Alika, say no.
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  How are you keeping so good to have you here?
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  We're so on. And how was your family?
• 3:20
  How's the community? Al Hamdullah, Al Hamdullah
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  Bilal, I mean, thank you for having me and it's an honour.
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  It's an honour. Pleasure to be here.
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  The honour is ours, honestly, I said, say Ali.
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  Say, that's been a long time in the making, as I I call Ahmed
• 3:34
  said, you know, we've been trying to make this happen,
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  Hamdullah. Finally the client has come and
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  you know, Ahmed says something. You know, he's, he's, he's
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  learnt so much from you. I can say the same.
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  I still remember the old days. I think I was like my early
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  teens, you know, Central Sullava, we used to come.
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  He's sick of lectures. So I have great memories growing
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  up. You've been part of possible of
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  my spiritual growth and upbringing.
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  So I thank you for that. But say you don't have a
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  question. Go ahead.
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  Hamdallah, you know many know you as a speaker, lecturer,
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  scholar, a teacher, but for me this is new and in the last two
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  years I found out that you have like a special connection with.
• 4:13
  Men's wear. Having, you know, one of the
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  best, I'll call out Kingsman. Is that the right?
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  Kingsman for fire. Yeah, and when it comes to the
• 4:21
  suits and the shoes and the ties.
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  What is the stamp for Fashion is tennis Tenzi?
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  I think like from like from a young age, like Abdullah, like
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  my father was up to now Abdullah, he always dresses
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  well, amazing. And I think like as far back as
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  I can remember, like since I was young, I had this fascination to
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  to dress well. And then obviously now you now
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  nowadays everybody knows that if you if you look hard enough, you
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  can find a niche on social media for anything.
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  That's very true. Yeah.
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  So during COVID, whilst everybody obviously was sitting
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  at home and there wasn't much to much to do.
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  And you know, there's only so much, so many times you can go
• 5:16
  on zoom and, and give lectures. So, so, so I developed, you
• 5:21
  know, this interest and I started reading more about it
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  and, you know, doing stuff and, and it's actually.
• 5:30
  So I'll give you a little secret here, I'll give away a little
• 5:32
  secret here. And that is that everybody
• 5:34
  thinks that I have, I must have a lot of stuff because I'm post,
• 5:40
  because I've posted the but the, the thing that I learned during
• 5:43
  Covad whilst I was doing all this research is that the key is
• 5:47
  to have combinations, is to have things which go with everything.
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  Okay. And so it looks like you have a
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  lot of stuff, but you only need a certain amount of things.
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  And you say you're trucking? They stayed.
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  Have you? Have you, have you seen that guy
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  on Twitter die? Work where?
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  Yes. You'd like him, right?
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  Yeah. I love that guy.
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  You have you had this? Guy, there's Twitter.
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  Hilarious. Yeah, I encourage people to look
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  into it. Yeah, die workwear, like DIE
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  workwear. And bro, the guy, I've developed
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  a fascination on menswear. Do you remember when we had our
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  event last year and I was like giving, I was like, do this,
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  don't do this, do this, don't. That's all thanks to this guy,
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  honestly. But you can see in that, in that
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  frame over there, all suited and booted.
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  So, you know, there's, there's, there's a really like the king
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  of Spain he talks all the time about.
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  It absolutely yes. You know, shoulders, lapels, all
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  of that. Whether to wear a dealt with
• 6:42
  this suit, whether or not to how long to have your sleeves, your
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  calves, everything. So it's the whole world, bro.
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  It's like a science. It's an art.
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  And it's like you can just get lost because there's so much to
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  know and learn, but. You don't have to be a a a
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  millionaire to dress well, right?
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  You can. You can shop smart.
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  And the, and the key obviously is to, you know, within your own
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  budget, you have to decide how much you want to spend because
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  you can spend as much as you want and of course you can spend
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  a lot and still not look good. This is very.
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  So what's the advice to look good?
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  So the so the advice to to look good is that the most important
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  thing that I think is felt like obviously it's die work where I
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  post things some of some things which are a bit controversial.
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  That's true. And, and many things which I
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  don't, I don't, I don't really agree with.
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  But anyway, obviously. But one thing which is fairly
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  uncontroversial, and I think every person or everyone who's
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  into fashion will agree on, is to focus on the fit of your
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  clothing, you know, So no matter how expensive or lack of cost
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  this thing is, if it fits you well, you, you will feel more
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  confident. Of having the right alterations.
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  Absolutely so it has it has to fit your body your body type you
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  have to dress according to your own physique your height your
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  body shape your you know all these things in in
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  consideration. Obviously every single person is
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  unique and this actually and obviously because clothing is
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  obviously 2 dimensional and we are three-dimensional.
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  So this is obviously where you know, these things come in.
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  So, but we're making sure that something and, and obviously,
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  and I think, you know, if you ask anyone, even someone who's
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  not into fashion and you wear something and some things you
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  wear and you really feel good wearing them, even if it's like,
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  you know, you've had it for a long time or it's not that
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  expensive, but you really feel good.
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  And it's all down to the fit of that because you feel
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  comfortable. And obviously, if you feel
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  comfortable, become confident, then you become more.
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  Confident. So you know, there's one brand
• 8:59
  of clothing which always fits me well.
• 9:03
  I like the fashion, I like the style and that is aftermarket of
• 9:06
  merchandise Brunsister. So make sure you go and get your
• 9:09
  merchandise now live on the aftermarket of website, you can
• 9:12
  get hoodies. We've got three different types
• 9:14
  of hoodies and make sure you check that out, say honey.
• 9:18
  In addition to this, while you're on the website
• 9:20
  aftermarket.com, do consider becoming a partner.
• 9:23
  Support Aftermarket and shallow. We can grow this platform
• 9:26
  together. Ahmed, what's the truth?
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  So, all right, OK. So with your permission, we'll
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  kick off. So look, there's, there's a lot
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  in this conversation. I think a good place to start is
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  maybe to, to look at a poll we did on social media.
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  I mentioned to you beforehand, we just wanted to get some, some
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  thoughts on what people thought about the, the term truth.
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  I know truth in itself is not the theme of today's
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  conversation, although it does play a big role.
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  And we asked people what is the truth. 46% of people said Shiism
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  is the only truth. 17% said Islam is the only truth which
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  encompasses obviously non Shia, 13% said Abrahamic religions,
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  Jews and Christians all have truth and 24% of people said any
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  human being can find the truth. Now we, we very intentionally
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  left it ambiguous. We left it black and white,
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  which in my personal and humble opinion, I don't believe is a
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  black and white statement. But it's something of course,
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  which we wanted to look into. Now, when we talk about the term
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  religious pluralism, there are different elements of pluralism.
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  There's social pluralism, there's religious pluralism.
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  Pluralism in itself is a concept.
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  You have inclusivism, you have exclusivism and you have
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  pluralism. Islam in itself may not define
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  itself as pluralistic if I'm not, if I'm not mistaken.
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  But the question which I had today, specifically speaking, is
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  religious pluralism compatible with Shiite theology?
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  Particularly when you think of, you know, different Quranic
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  verses, some which talk about, you know, the the religion being
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  sent for for all people. You have verses specifically
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  which admonish people or verses which, which praise people of a
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  certain belief system. Where do we kind of begin with
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  this topic? So I think it's, I think it's
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  important beginning this topic by talking about the frames of
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  reference that we have to have in order to understand, you
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  know, any, any kind of belief or any kind of dogma, theology.
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  It's really important to know the frames of reference.
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  For example, we can find Quranic verses which support or on the
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  apparent support pluralism. And we can also find Quranic
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  verses which go against pluralism.
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  So for example, somebody might read the Quran.
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  Oh, and they do. We'll come back to this.
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  We'll come back, come to this later on.
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  Some people read the Quran and say, or let's say for example, 2
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  verse 62 says that those who believe and are Jews and
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  Christians and Sabians, then they don't have anything to fear
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  and nothing to worry about and so on and so forth.
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  And so somebody reads this verse and says, for example, that
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  means that all these people will get salvation, which obviously
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  is a big jump from they have No Fear and they will not grieve to
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  they will definitely get salvation and they'll go to
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  heaven and so on and so forth. And on the other hand, so
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  further on we go, for example, Surah 3 verse 85, which says
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  whoever comes with the religion other than Islam will not be
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  accepted from him, and they will be from the people who have
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  lost, so on and so forth. And unless $100 or for example,
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  Surah 3 verse 19, unless one does it, you know, the religion
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  is only Islam, so on and so forth.
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  And then there's all all these debates about, you know, what,
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  what does this Al Islam refer to?
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  Does it just mean submission as in the, the, the verb of
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  submission of submission? Or is it talking about a proper
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  noun of Al Islam being Islam, the religion and all this so on
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  and so forth. So all of this is, is there.
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  So you know from that's why we have to have terms of reference
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  that, you know, when we're reading the Quran, what are our
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  in terms of where are we getting the interpretation of the verse
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  of Quran when we're reading, for example, the Rawaya generations
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  from what are our terms of reference, so on and so forth.
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  So this is really important, first of all, to, to to know
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  before we go into whether you know, for example, does the
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  Quran support X or doesn't support Y?
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  What are our terms of reference? So for example, you know, if I
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  am a person who is a who is a Muslim and therefore believes in
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  the Prophet, sallallahu alaihi wasallam as the prophet and the
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  one whose word is final. And of course he says that I'm
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  leaving behind for you 2 things, the book of Allah and my progeny
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  in obviously Sunni and Shia collections.
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  Then obviously I can't take just the Quran or just the I have to
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  take both of them. So this is my term of, you know,
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  my first term of reference that whatever the Quran says, I have
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  to see what do Salam say about those particular verses or
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  whatever I had better name of Salaam do of course is in
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  accordance with what which Quranic verse?
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  How did they how did they interpret the Quranic verses?
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  And that is my term. Well, my first term of
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  reference. And then of course, when it
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  comes to narrations, you know, how do we interpret those
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  narrations? For example, in those particular
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  times in the time of the Prophet Salah Alayhi Salaam, then in the
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  time of the Imams Allah Musala al Salaam, then obviously we
• 15:05
  have issues about the, we have issues about, for example, you
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  know, this situation, that political thing going on, so on
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  and so forth. All we have to have all these
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  considerations in mind, all these things, all these things
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  that we have to have. But I think the most important
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  thing is or for example, maybe we can start with, for example,
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  the most important thing is, is the is the approach that the
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  holistic approach that Islam takes, for example, when talking
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  to the believers. So if we look for example, in
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  the Holy Quran and this for example, my theme not connected
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  to release pluralism, but bear with me.
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  And then Inshallah will come and that will lead us to where I'm
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  trying to trying to go. So for example, when we read the
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  Holy Quran and it's when it's talking to believers frequently
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  in the Holy Quran, when it's talking to believers, we find
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  reference to the fact that unless Mohammed Allah says those
• 16:07
  who believe and do righteous deeds, right?
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  This is a common, you know, this is a common address to those who
• 16:18
  believe. So it's rather Quran and time
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  and time again, unless Mohammed, Allah is saying those who
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  believe and do righteous deeds, OK, now what does this or why is
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  this important? For example, in this, you know,
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  obviously it's important generally, but why is it
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  important in this conversation about religious pluralism?
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  So if we see at the time of revelation of Quran, we have,
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  you know, two groups of people obviously.
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  Well, two groups of people from the Abrahamic faith.
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  So obviously, obviously we have the people who are worshipping
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  idols and of course, they also claim to believe in one God.
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  They just say, you know, for example, the idols are our
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  Wasila and our means to getting close to God and so on.
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  But we believe in, you know, the God that we believe in is 1.
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  But of course, the Abrahamic faith that exists in the time of
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  the professor. And this is really interesting
• 17:13
  because I was reading actually a on on, on on Twitter.
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  There's a professor, Professor Wood, the Christian theology,
• 17:27
  I'm, I'm sure you've, you've seen.
• 17:29
  So he, he wrote something, he wrote something comparing the
• 17:33
  Islamic approach and the Christian approach.
• 17:36
  That's not really interesting because when I read that, I
• 17:39
  thought to myself that this is really interesting because I
• 17:42
  thought, you know, I can. And when you told me that we're
• 17:45
  going to talk about religious person, I thought, you know, I
• 17:47
  can, we can talk about this because it's very, very
• 17:49
  interesting that. So we have the, the, the classic
• 17:56
  Orthodox Jewish approach at that time.
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  You know, I'm, I'm being careful here because for example,
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  somebody might say, you know, like now in, in 2025, we have,
• 18:07
  you know, this many different sects of Judaism and they have
• 18:10
  different approaches. But of course the Quran is
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  addressing the people at that time and those people who exist
• 18:16
  at that time. So that approach at that time is
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  that as long as, for example, you are a person who follows all
• 18:26
  the laws of kosher and you follow all the laws that you
• 18:32
  know Moses Salaam brought, then that's it.
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  You're, you are fine and you will get salvation.
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  And you don't need to worry about anything else as long as
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  you follow all those commandments and those
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  commandments. Now of course this kind of
• 18:52
  rigidity towards the law in in that kind was 1 aspect and very
• 19:00
  firm. And of course, as you know, the
• 19:03
  many of the Jewish people or tribes had moved from different
• 19:06
  places where they were to Medina because of their prophecy that
• 19:11
  they had read that their final prophet is coming and he's going
• 19:14
  to come to Medina. So this is 1 approach that
• 19:18
  existed at the time of the revelation of the Quran.
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  And directly contrary to this approach is the other approach
• 19:26
  that existed at that time and even up to today, which is what
• 19:30
  this Professor Wood has mentioned in his article, is
• 19:33
  comparing Islam and Christianity.
• 19:36
  And in that approach, he says, you know, Christianity says, or
• 19:40
  even modern and traditional Christianity says that the most
• 19:44
  important thing for a person to have is, you know, divine grace,
• 19:51
  that Jesus died for our sins as, as they believe, and that as
• 19:58
  long as you have divine grace, then it doesn't matter about
• 20:03
  your actions, about what you do. So the most important thing for
• 20:07
  salvation is having divine grace, OK?
• 20:11
  So you are, on this one hand you had this approach that you know,
• 20:14
  you have to follow the laws and that's going to save you.
• 20:16
  And on the other hand, you had this approach where you just
• 20:20
  need divine grace and that's, that's enough for you.
• 20:23
  So Islam came, and time and time again in the Quran emphasized
• 20:28
  this point, that neither is it sufficient for a person to
• 20:32
  believe that divine grace by itself is going to save you, nor
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  is it for a person to believe that their actions are good
• 20:41
  enough to give them salvation by themselves.
• 20:44
  OK, I see. You see and both of these things
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  together. So Islam says you have to
• 20:51
  balance both of these things in your life together and all and
• 20:55
  this very it is very important why because this keeps me humble
• 21:00
  and grounded. That's my actions on have no,
• 21:05
  you know, you know, superpower in front of God, right.
• 21:11
  They have no reality in front of God.
• 21:12
  Yeah, and the the reality of my actions is that Iman that belief
• 21:18
  that I have. They go hand in.
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  Hand right the validity of my actions are on the basis of the
• 21:26
  belief that I have and that yes I have to have my actions
• 21:32
  because hi my name is Salaam have told me that if you want
• 21:37
  salvation we will give you it but you have to make yourself
• 21:41
  worthy to receive our. So you have to meet a certain
• 21:44
  criteria. You have to meet that minimum
• 21:46
  level to be able to be worthy of getting that salvation.
• 21:50
  If you don't mind me interrupting, I think there's an
• 21:53
  especially, you know, of course, when the Agha Khan passed away
• 21:55
  in the last couple of months, this discussion became a big one
• 21:58
  and I was saved and I've discussed it on air kind of in
• 22:01
  reference. We've touched on this topic
• 22:02
  about about the the connection between belief and amala salihad
• 22:08
  mentioned in the Quran hand in hand.
• 22:10
  Because of course, when when the other hand passed away, we kind
• 22:15
  of had two strands of response within the Shia community.
• 22:18
  You had those who said, no, you know, he was a man.
• 22:20
  He'd look at the charity he did, the universities, the hospitals,
• 22:23
  the schools. We've all heard it.
• 22:25
  And we've all either believe in, you know, agree or don't agree.
• 22:29
  And then we've got the other group who say, yeah, but you
• 22:33
  know, he claimed Imam from the other debate of the Muslim
• 22:36
  ultimately. So he's not my Imam, he's
• 22:38
  claiming Imam. Therefore by some standards,
• 22:40
  he's kafat. It falls within the bracket of
• 22:42
  kafat. So that's another thing which is
• 22:44
  an interesting conversation to have.
• 22:46
  I think if you don't mind me sharing my opinion, and I don't
• 22:48
  know if it's the right time or place, but look, within all
• 22:52
  human beings, we have a primordial nature, OK, which we
• 22:55
  call the Fed law within us, which guides us as a compass
• 22:58
  towards the truth. Whether you're Muslim or not,
• 23:00
  whether you believe in a religion or not, we all as
• 23:03
  humans agree that the compelling factor is truth.
• 23:08
  Truth will always be a compelling factor for human
• 23:11
  beings. When we say LA iklaha fiddin and
• 23:14
  the there's not being a compulsion in religion, we're
• 23:17
  saying in some ways that the, the, the compelling nature for
• 23:20
  oneself is not the religious label they carry around, but
• 23:24
  rather is haqq. So for example, a Muslim may
• 23:27
  tell the truth and so may a non-muslim.
• 23:29
  A Muslim may feel bad to lie, but the guilt also applies to a
• 23:32
  non-muslim. That means that what is
• 23:34
  compelling to an individual is not what label they carry, but
• 23:37
  perhaps the truth in itself, right?
• 23:39
  Of course, it would also make sense.
• 23:41
  You know this argument that Islam is the youngest of the
• 23:43
  three Abrahamic religions. Personally, I don't agree with
• 23:46
  that. My opinion is that Islam, of
• 23:48
  course, unlike the other Abrahamic religions, Islam
• 23:51
  believes that Adam Alayhi Salam was a prophet, not just the
• 23:54
  first man, but was the first prophet.
• 23:56
  Unlikely are the Abrahamic religions who consider him to be
• 23:58
  the first man. And of course in, in
• 24:00
  Christianity, modern day Christianities, human beings are
• 24:03
  paying the debt. You know that you know from the
• 24:05
  sin that Adam did according to their belief system.
• 24:08
  But truth was revealed at the start of this, you know, the
• 24:13
  world as we know it. But then, of course, variants of
• 24:17
  truth had come out in the same form of like kind of Chinese
• 24:21
  whispers and whatnot. But one may argue, and I want to
• 24:23
  know what your thoughts are and obviously what your thoughts
• 24:25
  are, said Ali. But one may argue that, you
• 24:28
  know, of the 20, let's say, religions in the world, five
• 24:31
  major religions of the world, each religion may have an
• 24:34
  element, a variant of truth. Are there different ways to
• 24:38
  reach the top of the mountain? We don't know.
• 24:40
  We know in the Holy Quran Allah Spamta Allah says in Soto Saath
• 24:43
  61 nine Hueladi al Star Rosado who Bill Huda with Dean and
• 24:48
  Hakke Leo Hiroho Allah Kuladini Aladini Kuli Willow Karhill that
• 24:55
  he's the one who has sent his messenger with true guidance and
• 24:57
  the religion of truth, making it prevail over all others, even to
• 25:01
  the dismay of the polytheists. What you thought so it's.
• 25:05
  A property points that you've raised here that is fine.
• 25:11
  And you know, you mentioned like for example, from 20 religions
• 25:13
  to five religions and Abrahamic religions is going to be
• 25:15
  thinking. And when we talk about religious
• 25:17
  pluralism, does the Bahati faith fall under that category because
• 25:22
  they take from Moses Alayhi Salaam, Jesus alayhi Salaam
• 25:25
  Muhammad Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi sallam Krishna Buddha and
• 25:29
  you know that they end up now with a man made religion.
• 25:31
  For example, how far to what extent can we accept religious
• 25:36
  pluralism? And you spoke about the Fatah
• 25:39
  and I think the right to bring that into the conversation
• 25:41
  because it's not just about believing in a God where you
• 25:45
  automatically naturally have having that, but it's more about
• 25:49
  being inclined to the truth. And if you know lying is wrong,
• 25:53
  that's from your right. You'd want to find the truth.
• 25:56
  You know the good from wrong. You know the truth from
• 25:58
  falsehood. So to what extent count to what
• 26:00
  extent, say if maybe if I can ask, can we accept religious
• 26:04
  pluralism that doesn't go against your theology, for
• 26:07
  example, and not fall in the danger of.
• 26:11
  Can I add something? I think that's really
• 26:14
  interesting, what you mentioned. Of course, when we talk about
• 26:16
  truth, we have relative truths and we have absolute truths.
• 26:20
  We have the theory of relativism, which, you know,
• 26:23
  relatives believe that there is no absolute truth.
• 26:26
  Everyone has the truth depending on the dynamic, the culture that
• 26:29
  they're raising, their truth is valid.
• 26:31
  Their truth is legitimate. Their truth is their truth.
• 26:34
  They say all roads lead to God. All roads lead to God.
• 26:37
  This is the thing. So relativism doesn't just apply
• 26:40
  to God or religion or theology, but can apply to anything.
• 26:43
  Anything and everything, for example, right.
• 26:45
  So if I think that Lionel Messi is the greatest football player
• 26:47
  ever to live, that's true. But you might say Ronaldo is,
• 26:51
  and that's your truth, and this is my truth.
• 26:52
  That's relativism. Some may say religious pluralism
• 26:56
  is modern relativism repackaged into theology.
• 27:00
  All right, that's, that's the thought process that I had
• 27:02
  before the discussion. But if, for example, when you
• 27:05
  look at science, you know, all scientists have theories, all
• 27:09
  scientists have theories. Millions of scientists are all
• 27:12
  simultaneously working towards finding out their theories,
• 27:15
  their arguments on, let's say, the origin of the universe,
• 27:18
  where it came from, has it always been here, so on and so
• 27:20
  forth. But every scientist would agree
• 27:23
  that there is an undisputable, undivided absolute truth, which
• 27:27
  can never be altered, changed, or all things fall in line
• 27:32
  within. And that any surviving theories
• 27:34
  that a scientist may have is only tangible and can only be
• 27:38
  feasible if it is in line with absolute truth, whatever that
• 27:41
  is. And that their theories would
• 27:43
  survive trials and tribulations, would survive opposition and and
• 27:47
  queries and whatnot, if it falls in line with whatever that
• 27:50
  absolute truth is. And that parable can be related
• 27:53
  to Islam in many ways. So yeah, I just want to get your
• 27:56
  thoughts on that side. I think like, like it's very
• 28:04
  deep, but I was thinking whilst you're talking of of the
• 28:09
  conversation that that person in the battle of Jamal who came to
• 28:16
  Imam al Mamir Salaam and he asked him that.
• 28:21
  I'm confused. Oh yeah, I see that there are
• 28:26
  companions of the Prophet, Salah Alayhi Salaam on this side.
• 28:30
  And I also see that there are companions of the Professor Al
• 28:33
  Hari on the other side. So what should I do?
• 28:38
  So now it's it's very interesting because obviously,
• 28:41
  as you mentioned, the saying and, and this saying is, is
• 28:45
  really obviously very famous. That's Ali is Mali, Alko Alko
• 28:50
  Mali. And and of course, everybody
• 28:53
  knows this has been narrated by, you know, Mutafik and Ali
• 28:57
  amongst all the, all, the, all the, all the hadith collectors.
• 29:02
  But I mean, didn't reply with this thing.
• 29:05
  Instead he said something else. He said to this person that
• 29:10
  truth is not identified through people, right.
• 29:14
  She's really interesting because that that's not just a reply to
• 29:19
  that person. That's actually that's a that's
• 29:21
  a principle. That is that's that is what we
• 29:24
  said earlier that dynamic or that way or that theory that
• 29:28
  we're going to use in order to identify or how to interpret the
• 29:32
  Quran. That's Imam says that truth is
• 29:35
  not identified through the people.
• 29:37
  You, yes, you need to identify the truth like you said, and
• 29:45
  everybody has that capability to identify truth and then through
• 29:50
  the truth identify as people identify the analogue.
• 29:55
  So search for the truth and you know.
• 29:57
  Then you will know, then you will know as people, right?
• 30:00
  Or you, then you will recognize that you will recognize as
• 30:03
  people. So that means that This is why
• 30:08
  and that links back to or ties back to what we were saying
• 30:12
  earlier where Islam keeps on emphasizing about belief and
• 30:17
  righteous deeds. That is through these righteous
• 30:21
  deeds that I'm actually going to prove my adherence to, to the
• 30:27
  truth. Because obviously what I
• 30:29
  believe, what you believe or what Satan believes, we don't
• 30:33
  know. That's, that's within me.
• 30:35
  That's inside me. The only way that I can tell
• 30:39
  somebody about my beliefs is through my actions.
• 30:44
  You know, one of our teachers used to say that, you know,
• 30:50
  don't tell people that your beliefs are the best beliefs
• 30:54
  because if your beliefs can't change your own actions, how
• 30:57
  they're going to change other people's actions, right?
• 31:01
  You know, why, why are you having the need to tell people
• 31:04
  that my beliefs are the best belief?
• 31:06
  Because they're not changing me. So how are they going to change
• 31:10
  somebody else, right? If, if my beliefs are the best
• 31:14
  beliefs, if then they should make me into the best person,
• 31:19
  then everybody will recognize that these these are the best
• 31:22
  beliefs because they're making me into the best person.
• 31:27
  And similarly, like for all, for example, you know, all those
• 31:29
  hadith that you all know that for example, says, you know,
• 31:33
  invite people towards us to go home without the use of your
• 31:37
  time. What this is what he's saying.
• 31:39
  He's saying that you have the best beliefs, so then they
• 31:43
  should be reflected in the best actions, which will then
• 31:46
  automatically invite people to or for example, Imam Rodale
• 31:50
  Salaam, who says that no, Ali Manas, if people knew our words,
• 31:58
  then they would have followed us.
• 32:00
  The best of our words, then they would have, they would have
• 32:03
  followed us. So that means that it is just
• 32:06
  about living my life according to those best beliefs that I
• 32:12
  believe are the best beliefs that will prove that they are
• 32:15
  the best beliefs, right? But also coming back to this
• 32:21
  thing about, you know, relativism, for example, of
• 32:27
  course there are certain things where there are cut A, you know,
• 32:33
  for example, definitive truths, you know, God is 1.
• 32:39
  So that is cut A. It cannot be two or three or
• 32:42
  five or 100 or, you know, you cannot not exist.
• 32:45
  This is cut A. This is a true.
• 32:47
  There's no relativism, for example, in God being one.
• 32:50
  Yeah. Or that, you know, for example,
• 32:54
  other beliefs that we have, which are now there are some,
• 32:59
  for example, secondary category of beliefs that we met, for
• 33:02
  example, may hold where they are not in that kati.
• 33:08
  Maybe it can be relative for that.
• 33:10
  I'll share a narration. And this is a really beautiful
• 33:13
  narration. I think it's in the second
• 33:17
  volume of Al Kafi was talking about Iman about belief.
• 33:25
  And he says it's of or he he compares it to a ladder that's
• 33:30
  there are different, there are different steps of he manned the
• 33:34
  way there are a ladder. And then he said, and this is
• 33:39
  really, this is the the the beautiful power of generation.
• 33:42
  So he says that if you find yourself to be on a higher
• 33:47
  ladder to somebody else or higher step to somebody else,
• 33:52
  then it's your responsibility to pull that person up to and not
• 33:58
  to stick them off the ladder. And and thanks.
• 34:01
  We did a couple of weeks ago. We remember this, the same
• 34:05
  hadith. Yeah.
• 34:07
  Right. So that gives us insight
• 34:11
  obviously relating to pluralism. Of course there there could be
• 34:13
  lots of different angles to this hadith, but talking about
• 34:16
  pluralism, that tells us that there are some relative truths
• 34:19
  because obviously there might be somebody who's on that first
• 34:22
  ladder who doesn't understand what's on, who's on, for
• 34:25
  example, the 10th. So there is a sort of spiritual
• 34:28
  or enemy or whatever it might be hierarchy in that regard.
• 34:31
  Of course, for example, again, another famous generation,
• 34:35
  again, I'm sure all of our views I've had that, you know, the
• 34:39
  Prophet, Salahu and Salem says that if Abu Dhar knew what was
• 34:42
  in the heart of Salman, then he would have killed him.
• 34:47
  Why? Because he couldn't bear that
• 34:49
  which Salman could bear or he couldn't have that realization
• 34:55
  of truth that Salman could have. And we're talking about without
• 34:58
  who himself is on this highest level of, you know, there's no
• 35:02
  comparison with without with even other companions that
• 35:05
  alone, you know, with for example, people like us.
• 35:08
  But you know, even he can bear this position of which Salman
• 35:12
  has. So that means that there is some
• 35:15
  relativity between the Iman of Salman and the Iman of Abuta,
• 35:21
  right? And then of Makdad and then of
• 35:23
  Ahmad and then of, you know, for example, the rest of the
• 35:25
  companies. So that means that there is some
• 35:30
  room or some kind of pluralism that exists because of course,
• 35:34
  the if let's say, for example, now here we come to the, the
• 35:39
  question that you, you're coming to, I know, which is about the
• 35:41
  justice of Allah. So that means that if Allah,
• 35:44
  Subhanahu Adalah had made Iman for all of us, that you all have
• 35:49
  to have the Iman of Salman, then a lot of it unjust because none
• 35:54
  of us have the capability to have the Iman of we won't be
• 35:58
  judged on that because we have, we don't have the capacity to be
• 36:03
  on the Iman of Salman. Yeah.
• 36:05
  But yes, we have the capacity to have Iman, to have belief.
• 36:08
  We can strive. Well, we have the the capacity
• 36:12
  to. So I will be judged on the
• 36:13
  capacity that I have, right? And this is really important.
• 36:18
  Sometimes it's a bit hard for for some of us to get our heads
• 36:23
  around because you know, for example, we live in, we live in
• 36:26
  UK where we have the rule of law.
• 36:29
  And the rule of law means that every person is judged the same.
• 36:33
  Now, in a system where, for example, you know, the judge and
• 36:39
  the jury are ordinary people, you have to have the rule of
• 36:41
  law. There's no other way.
• 36:42
  If you don't have the rule of law, it's going to, there will
• 36:44
  be no, there's no semblance or no chance of having justice.
• 36:47
  So of course, rule of law is the foundation of democracy and
• 36:51
  foundation of, of, of free society.
• 36:53
  But of course, a loss of Hanover dollar is not limited by these
• 36:57
  limitations that human beings are limited with, Right?
• 37:00
  That's human beings have to judge on the basis of the rule
• 37:04
  of law. They have to judge on the basis
• 37:05
  of this legal system. And there can't be, for example,
• 37:08
  you know, one law for one person, another law for another
• 37:11
  person. It's not possible.
• 37:13
  But unless $100 can judge people each on their own capabilities,
• 37:19
  Yeah, Because they don't have, you know, you don't have to,
• 37:24
  does not have these limitations that he has to judge everybody
• 37:28
  according to the same the rules. No, say that's I'm sorry.
• 37:32
  To hear this a lot and I'm sure agree said like when we were in
• 37:35
  university, we still this in dialogue with different
• 37:38
  societies and we still have this chaplaincy in Birmingham, which
• 37:41
  was amazing but we used to hear this a lot about you know
• 37:45
  according to your books, where am I going to hell or heaven,
• 37:47
  for example, I believe this where am I going to end up
• 37:50
  according to you and you know we also hear this amongst amongst
• 37:53
  our peers in our own community that what about the people prior
• 37:56
  to Islam? What about the people who've
• 37:58
  never encountered Islam, those who live in the Amazon
• 38:00
  rainforest who were born 3000 years ago, the Cavemen that came
• 38:03
  of well, they will be judging the same thing.
• 38:05
  If they don't do will I Amidamot Manin?
• 38:07
  If they don't do their Naras in the mosque and they beat their
• 38:09
  church, are they going to be, You know, of course, this is the
• 38:12
  thing that say Ali and I talk about all the time.
• 38:14
  If Amidamot Manin is the splitter of heaven and hell,
• 38:19
  does that mean that the splitting determining factor is
• 38:21
  will IA or is it not? And if so, does that mean that
• 38:24
  there's, you know, a miniscule amount of human beings that fall
• 38:27
  on one side of the ladder or whatever the the partition of
• 38:30
  heaven and hell, and, you know, the mass majority are punished?
• 38:33
  And therefore is your Lord a Lord of punishment and a Lord of
• 38:38
  admonishment or a Lord of mercy and justice?
• 38:41
  You see what I mean? And this is something we speak
• 38:43
  about as well. We do, we do.
• 38:45
  And just to add to this, and you know, speaking, you mentioned
• 38:47
  the Adala of a lost one Matala, and I rang these points.
• 38:51
  You know, we believe for this core to our beliefs as part of
• 38:55
  our solid Deen. So this is this is foundational
• 38:58
  to to we believe in the justice of Allah.
• 39:00
  Now, he mentioned the example of rainforest and people might not
• 39:03
  take it serious, but this does happen.
• 39:04
  Of course there are more villages around the world and
• 39:07
  people who've never communicated with the outside world.
• 39:10
  People who don't have access to the Internet, let's say.
• 39:13
  Precious again. Even that our having people who
• 39:15
  are people who are incapacity, let's say they they are
• 39:18
  disabled, they're deaf, they're blind.
• 39:20
  Maybe they that they have a condition of some sort.
• 39:23
  How are they judged? These are things which people
• 39:25
  ask. By the way, I used to ask this
• 39:27
  question to my father a little as a young child.
• 39:30
  I still remember. So this is giving me memories
• 39:33
  and if I can just mention I think, I think he told me, if I
• 39:36
  if I say this correctly, is that a last finalist will judge them
• 39:41
  on the day of judgements with certain questions and see how
• 39:44
  they respond. But that was also I was given as
• 39:46
  a little child, of course, saying.
• 39:47
  That no, of course, and we have this in generations, but we also
• 39:50
  have in generations lots of things about, as you say, about
• 39:54
  the justice of Allah. And this was something that I
• 39:57
  found really fascinating as like you said, you know, this is one
• 40:00
  of our foundational beliefs. So this was something I found
• 40:02
  really fascinating. And in fact, maybe some of our
• 40:06
  views can probably confirm as well.
• 40:09
  And that was that unless Mohana Adalah's justice is to this
• 40:12
  extent that, for example, if a person has a deficiency in one
• 40:19
  capability that they have, then unless Subhana Adalah excels
• 40:22
  their capability in another. Yeah, yeah, we see the.
• 40:26
  So for example, if somebody has a deficiency, for example in
• 40:29
  their site, then they have very good hearing, of course.
• 40:32
  Yeah. Or vice versa.
• 40:34
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or smel or something or another.
• 40:37
  Right. Any other talent?
• 40:38
  Right. So, so this is part of that.
• 40:42
  He if, for example, there's a deficiency in something, then
• 40:45
  that he excels in another sense, for example or another in
• 40:49
  another area. Sorry to say, like we even see,
• 40:52
  I think in today's studies, they, they link people who have,
• 40:54
  for example, forms of autism. They have good memories.
• 40:59
  Yeah, yeah, they have excellent mathematical skills like.
• 41:02
  Creativity. Absolutely, absolutely.
• 41:04
  And, and, and also one of the arguments that's actually
• 41:08
  mentioned in some of the books of Kala is that this is one of
• 41:14
  the proofs of Alyssa Mahanavatala's Kodrat and his
• 41:18
  power that he has the capability to create people who have all
• 41:23
  these different capabilities, right, right.
• 41:26
  If all human beings were the same, then somebody could have
• 41:29
  objected. Now, for example, if a human
• 41:31
  being had X, how would that last $100 be able to create Alec?
• 41:37
  But you know, and that question, so all of these things, the fact
• 41:42
  that human beings, each of them are created differently and each
• 41:45
  of them have these different capabilities and some of them
• 41:47
  have deficiencies and so on and so on and so forth.
• 41:50
  Then these this is all part of his and part of his, the
• 41:54
  capability of the fact that he is powerful over every single
• 41:57
  thing. So coming back to the, the
• 42:00
  pluralism, all of these things, for example, come back to the
• 42:08
  Adant of Allah, Sohan Matala, that he is just and that he
• 42:12
  doesn't have to judge each person on the same judgement.
• 42:16
  And also, for example, on the interpretation of the text.
• 42:21
  So for example, where alas, Muhannu Atal is talking about
• 42:25
  Kufur, about disability or which we translate to disbelief.
• 42:31
  It's a very specific form of, of disbelief.
• 42:36
  It doesn't just mean, for example, you know, sometimes
• 42:39
  people think, for example, we're talking about Kufur.
• 42:41
  It just means every person is not a Muslim or, for example,
• 42:43
  not sure that no, doesn't apply for every single person.
• 42:48
  Where Kuffer in his definition is where a person who knows the
• 42:54
  truth and then rejects it or hides it or doesn't like, for
• 42:58
  example, acknowledge it. That is very different to, for
• 43:02
  example, somebody who's living in Amazon rainforest or even,
• 43:06
  for example, somebody who's not even living in Amazon
• 43:08
  rainforest. OK.
• 43:09
  Like, for example, you know, social media, it's all over.
• 43:13
  Everybody has access to it. But even up to now, there are
• 43:16
  places, for example, people in remote villages.
• 43:19
  We're not living. It's not Amazon rate France.
• 43:21
  There's no remote villages in Africa and India.
• 43:23
  You know, even in, you know, the Middle East in different places,
• 43:27
  there's people living in remote villages and they have no access
• 43:29
  to the outside world or limited access to the outside world.
• 43:33
  They don't know, for example, what's going on beyond that
• 43:37
  village that they're living in on that area or that place where
• 43:40
  they're living in. So that person has not been
• 43:43
  exposed to or has not even been presented the truth.
• 43:48
  So how can he or she reject the truth when they don't even know
• 43:54
  as far as outside of their own and bubble, if you like, or
• 43:57
  outside of their own play, they don't even know.
• 43:59
  And even actually today or today's day and age in social
• 44:04
  media, we can see that, you know, on on social media, most
• 44:09
  of us now, you know, the way that they have designed the
• 44:13
  algorithm are in are in our own echo chambers where we think
• 44:18
  that everybody thinks the same as us.
• 44:21
  Well, that's not the reality, right?
• 44:23
  If I'm, for example, following certain number of people or
• 44:28
  certain group of accounts, for example, on whichever social
• 44:32
  media platform you happen to be, then then then you are and you
• 44:38
  are going to get suggested those similar accounts which are
• 44:41
  similar to that. Yeah.
• 44:42
  And then eventually you're in this place where you're just
• 44:45
  surrounded by those opinions and those ideas which are already
• 44:51
  similar to you. And you, you agree.
• 44:54
  So now in that some ways, deciphering the truth becomes
• 44:58
  even more difficult. Said, Can I ask you a question
• 45:01
  if you don't mind, and slightly off script, but see look, I, it,
• 45:05
  it sounds to me like the truth is the determining factor of the
• 45:09
  way in one of the determining factors of the way in which
• 45:13
  Allah will judge us and how we have adhered towards the the
• 45:16
  absolute truth. If you imagine the absolute, if
• 45:19
  you know there's a circle being this ideological circle of
• 45:22
  humanity, all ideologies, all belief systems fit within the
• 45:25
  side, the circle in the pinpoint center, you have the absolute
• 45:28
  truth. People can find themselves at
• 45:31
  different distances dotted around and their, their
• 45:34
  proximity to the centre being absolute truth may be the
• 45:38
  determining factor as to where they stand on Yomal pyaama.
• 45:40
  Now, what I find interesting is, is that when we look at this,
• 45:45
  this notion, it, it, it makes sense to the point that you
• 45:48
  know, a lot of judges people based on their capacity to
• 45:50
  understand, a lot judges people based on the resources they had
• 45:54
  at their disposal. So for example, if they had
• 45:56
  social media in today's day and age, they may be judged
• 45:59
  differently in a in a world post Islam Liam Akmetu post that
• 46:05
  world compared to for example, someone in the pre technological
• 46:08
  world who had no access to monotheism, for example.
• 46:11
  Of course, in the Holy Quran we see Allah say that you know,
• 46:13
  there are signs for people for those who observe where you can
• 46:17
  find you can become one of the more hadean you can find Allah
• 46:20
  find to read just through observance of science and so on
• 46:23
  and so forth. But then for example, this is
• 46:26
  what I had a disagreement with with one of our our team members
• 46:30
  about this. We were having a karak Chai the
• 46:32
  other day, I remember saying, and we're standing outside and
• 46:35
  had this debate and this. Was during Ramadan.
• 46:38
  It was during Shah Ramadhan and my point of view was that for
• 46:44
  Shia, yeah, I feel that I need to wear this very carefully,
• 46:49
  otherwise I'm going to get cancelled.
• 46:50
  Basically. In essence, being a Muslim by
• 46:53
  name doesn't always mean anything, right?
• 46:56
  Or would have been Sat was Muslim by name.
• 46:58
  He did his Shahada team. He will be in the bottom pits of
• 47:00
  hell, right. And I believe that there will be
• 47:03
  Christians, atheists, arguably who may fall up or will likely
• 47:09
  be above or would have been Saturn in, you know, in in the
• 47:11
  Arkham makes sense. I don't think that's a that's a
• 47:14
  what you call it a statement, a provocative or a controversial
• 47:17
  statement. But in theory, what that means
• 47:19
  is accepting Islam on your tongue doesn't mean that you're
• 47:21
  accepting it within your hearts. You mentioned belief and
• 47:24
  actions, right? What about those who are not
• 47:27
  Shia? So those who have access to
• 47:29
  religion, those who have accepted Islam, those who have
• 47:33
  access to the books. You mentioned the beginning
• 47:35
  Haditha Thakalain and the fact that it's accepted by all
• 47:37
  Muslims in all books. Is the judgement for Sunnis, for
• 47:42
  example, going to be different to the judgement for Shia where
• 47:45
  they for all a non-muslim? If someone says I've accepted
• 47:48
  Muhammad Rasul Allah, yeah. And then at the point of the
• 47:52
  deathbed, that's where my religion ends.
• 47:55
  Or for example, where my my my interest in the religion ceases.
• 47:59
  Or in terms of unaltered purified masul belief.
• 48:03
  Does that make sense? But I think I think in some ways
• 48:06
  you answered your question with what you said before, which is
• 48:11
  that, you know, if I say I believe, say that I believe in
• 48:20
  Muhammad al Surallah sallallahu alaihi Wali, then I have to
• 48:24
  believe what he says. Yeah.
• 48:27
  I can't say that I believe Muhammad al Surallah, but as
• 48:32
  soon as he dies, that's it's finished.
• 48:34
  And now I don't I'm not going to listen to him anymore.
• 48:37
  Well, if I'm saying 10 times a day, Ashadwan Muhammad
• 48:40
  Rasulullah, I believe that Muhammad is the messenger of
• 48:43
  God. No, he was the messenger of God.
• 48:46
  I'm saying that I believe that he is the messenger of God.
• 48:50
  Then if he is the messenger of God, then that means that
• 48:53
  whatever he said still is what you know, what I have to follow
• 48:59
  and believe and, and listen to you.
• 49:01
  So now we've seen due to social media, you know, for example,
• 49:06
  maybe some of our viewers who know or do or know, and
• 49:10
  obviously those who know Arabic will also know that due to
• 49:14
  social media, lots of people who are Muslims have become or have
• 49:21
  found out what is actually written in the text.
• 49:25
  Because up to now there was, you know, for example, who reads
• 49:29
  books. Nowadays nobody reads books.
• 49:32
  For example, maybe in my, our parents generation or our
• 49:36
  grandparents generation, people used to read books.
• 49:38
  But in our generation, nobody reads books.
• 49:42
  And for example, you know, in our, in our parents generation
• 49:46
  or our grandparents generation, people were not that educated.
• 49:49
  Maybe like 5 or 10% or 15% of people knew how to read books.
• 49:54
  So those people who knew how to read, they used to read books.
• 49:56
  So the, the vast majority of people were not, for example,
• 49:59
  that educated or they didn't have access to books.
• 50:02
  Books are expensive. They even even now they're
• 50:04
  expensive. So they didn't have their
• 50:05
  resources, for example. So you know, their, their
• 50:12
  capability to access those things was limited course,
• 50:16
  right? It was limited to or for
• 50:17
  example, the books on Arabic. So now if I don't know Arabic,
• 50:22
  even if I can read, but I have no access to those books, let's
• 50:25
  say for example, or I know Arabic, but I can't read or I
• 50:30
  can't buy the books. Now because of social media,
• 50:34
  things become more accessible. You know, people are reading the
• 50:38
  books and they're showing you the highlighting the the the
• 50:41
  text and showing you on the screen that this is what it says
• 50:44
  in this in this text. And they're doing it in very
• 50:47
  differently. Obviously in Arabic has been
• 50:48
  having for a long time, but even older now you know, you know
• 50:51
  that for example, all over there's these people who are
• 50:55
  scholars and they are actually saying that.
• 50:59
  No, don't for example, just label any person who, for
• 51:04
  example, starts talking about the name of Salaam.
• 51:06
  You say this person has become Shia or this will become Rafadi.
• 51:09
  No, read your books and see what do your books say that the
• 51:15
  province of Allah said about and then decide.
• 51:20
  Don't for example, label somebody just because, for
• 51:23
  example, they're talking about topic X or they're talking about
• 51:26
  topic Y. No, read your books and find
• 51:28
  out. But but what's what this has
• 51:31
  done is because it made it more accessible.
• 51:33
  And now even those people, for example, in the past didn't have
• 51:37
  access to books or didn't have access to resources, didn't have
• 51:40
  access to what was actually being said.
• 51:43
  And they, for example, were like you said, that person, for
• 51:46
  example, that person is born a Muslim.
• 51:48
  Like, you know, and I'm the law where all of us here where
• 51:51
  people who were born in a household, which is Muslim and
• 51:54
  I'm the law behind me. But for example, a person is a
• 51:56
  boring household, which is Muslim.
• 51:58
  Does that person, does that mean that that person is definitely
• 52:00
  Muslim? I'll share a little anecdote
• 52:02
  here just to humor the mood a little.
• 52:05
  You know, I went for one time, I went to do a naka and the groom
• 52:13
  was Muslim Shia and the bride was a English lady.
• 52:21
  So some of the groom's friends, they came up to me just as we
• 52:28
  before we about started in a car and they said to me saying, how
• 52:33
  do we know that she's definitely become Muslim?
• 52:40
  So I was feeling a bit, you know, provocative.
• 52:45
  So I said to them, I said, how do I know that you're Muslim?
• 52:49
  Allah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 52:53
  Other than the fact that other than the fact that you were born
• 52:57
  in a household of Muslims, how do I know that you're Muslim?
• 53:03
  So he said, well, you don't. So I said I have to take your
• 53:06
  word. Yes, right.
• 53:08
  So I said, well, if I take your word, then I'll take her word as
• 53:11
  well. And this is what Islam teaches
• 53:14
  me. Of course, Islam teaches me.
• 53:17
  And we have an innovation as early as you mentioned
• 53:21
  regarding, for example, a person who says that they're a Muslim
• 53:25
  and what their belief is, you know, between Islam and Iman.
• 53:29
  So on the basis the Imam al Islam says that Islam is what
• 53:33
  defines, for example, a person being allowed to marry another
• 53:36
  person. If this person says that they're
• 53:39
  a Muslim, then the guy is valid, right?
• 53:43
  They've met the basic criteria. They've met that criteria, that
• 53:45
  in front of me that person said Shadow, and they haven't done
• 53:51
  anything contrary to that belief.
• 53:54
  So I have to take their word that they have become a Muslim.
• 53:58
  Now. I said when I said to them, I
• 54:01
  said, well, why should I? I only assume that you're Muslim
• 54:04
  because your father was a Muslim.
• 54:08
  And this lady, her father's not a Muslim.
• 54:11
  Therefore, I can't assume that she's a Muslim.
• 54:13
  No, right. This is on there the the basic
• 54:17
  criteria. You know, the the way that we
• 54:19
  and this is the only way that a person can judge because we have
• 54:23
  to take each other's take what we there's no other way.
• 54:26
  Nobody knows what's inside. You can't do it.
• 54:28
  Right to do it right. So that, so when it comes to
• 54:33
  pluralism, we have to consider what, for example, how Islam
• 54:38
  has, you know, in some ways this is a pluralism in itself.
• 54:43
  Yeah, that's we have a pluralism when it comes to, for example,
• 54:46
  Akam. Yeah, that's when it comes to
• 54:48
  fiki Akam. We judge people on the basis of
• 54:50
  what they say, yes. But when it comes to other
• 54:53
  things, then yes, it's different.
• 54:56
  For example, when it comes to talking about salvation and and
• 54:59
  so on and so forth. Now, now it's different now.
• 55:01
  Now we have a different judgement.
• 55:03
  That was a different criteria to judge people, for example.
• 55:07
  And you know, in this narration, for example, between Imam
• 55:10
  Masadaf al Islam and that Syrian person is mentioned, Shahmuf
• 55:13
  Federaldan Latale, mentioned in Al Rashad.
• 55:16
  When that person comes and he says, you know, I won't come to
• 55:18
  debate with Imam Masadaf al Salaam and Imam al Islam calls
• 55:21
  Hisham and then he debates with him.
• 55:25
  And so at the end of the debate, you know, he says that now I've
• 55:32
  become Muslim and Imam Ali Salam corrects him and says, no, you
• 55:36
  were a Muslim because you attested to shahada den.
• 55:41
  But today you have become a believer because you've also
• 55:44
  recognized the Imam. Today you have become.
• 55:49
  So in reality, this is a pluralism, right?
• 55:51
  Yeah, yeah. That you were you were a Muslim.
• 55:54
  But now you've become a believer because you also recognize the
• 55:57
  Imam and you've recognized the fact that after the prover
• 56:00
  sallalahu alaihi Salam because. So this comes back to the
• 56:04
  criteria that after the province of Allahu, Alaio Salem, is there
• 56:08
  a need for people to get guidance or not?
• 56:12
  Of course, right. So EUS guidance, right, Yeah,
• 56:15
  yeah. So.
• 56:15
  Either there's a need for people to have guidance, or there's not
• 56:20
  a need. Otherwise, what the Christians
• 56:21
  done? But this is interesting and I
• 56:26
  didn't and I didn't think of this.
• 56:27
  You know, for example, we, for example, I've grown up, you
• 56:30
  know, since our young age in Madalis, in, you know, madrasa
• 56:34
  everywhere. These are the talking points,
• 56:37
  you know, is there necessity to have guidance after the province
• 56:40
  Salaam or not? And so, you know, since for
• 56:43
  example, maybe like 5 years old, we've had this so many times
• 56:46
  that now it's now second nature that, you know, we, we believe
• 56:50
  that after the province Salaam, Salaam guidance is necessary.
• 56:54
  And who the guidance? I'm Malayalam Salaam.
• 56:57
  So one day, again, another little anecdote just to mix,
• 57:00
  just to mix it up of it. So one day there's this guy in
• 57:05
  in our community and he, he says to me that I have accepted the
• 57:13
  ZDR belief. Oh, OK.
• 57:18
  So I asked him what's the, you know, what's the evidence for
• 57:23
  accepting ZDR belief? So he says to me that so, and
• 57:30
  this is where I got this idea and I actually, you know, did
• 57:33
  more research on this idea of before talking about any topic,
• 57:37
  you have to know the terms of reference, of course, because
• 57:41
  otherwise you're talking at cross purposes with the other
• 57:43
  person. When this person thinks that
• 57:45
  yes, I am correct because his terms of reference are different
• 57:50
  to my terms of reference. So I asked him, I said, what's
• 57:52
  the belief? So I actually said to him, I
• 57:55
  said to him, look, if you have this idea of belief, then that
• 57:59
  means that you believe and after you believe in and then
• 58:07
  obviously you believe in Shahid and then you believe in all
• 58:12
  these other imams. And so what's the criteria?
• 58:15
  So of course, as you know, like traditional, the idea belief was
• 58:18
  that, you know, the Imam has to be one who calls people to
• 58:23
  towards battle. And that's why there's a bit of
• 58:25
  debate about whether Imam Hassan is Imam or not.
• 58:28
  And then, for example, there's this theory that, you know, Imam
• 58:32
  Sajad al Salaam actually fought on the day of Ashura according
• 58:34
  to his idea of belief, and then he survived and so on and so on
• 58:37
  and so forth. Anyway, so he says to me, no,
• 58:41
  no, that's not my belief. That's OK.
• 58:43
  So I said to him that, OK, so what's your terms of reference?
• 58:45
  So this is my terms of reference.
• 58:47
  That guidance after the province allow anyone in Salem is
• 58:51
  necessary, right? I say either yes or no.
• 58:56
  If yes, after the province allowed in Salem guidance is
• 58:59
  necessary, then that guidance remains necessary as long as
• 59:04
  people are there. Yeah, of course, right.
• 59:07
  So once I believe that Amirul what Minina Salato Salaam is the
• 59:12
  successor of the province of Salaam.
• 59:14
  Now I don't need any more other evidence for each every Imam.
• 59:18
  Yes, of course we have that each Imam after one after the other
• 59:22
  says, you know that Imam after me is going to be, but that
• 59:26
  there has to be an Imam. That is already proven by Khadir
• 59:31
  that the province of Salaam said that's you have to have guidance
• 59:35
  after me continuously and Amirul Mala Salato Salaam is the one.
• 59:40
  OK, So he says to me, no, take my terms of reference are
• 59:42
  different. So this is really interesting
• 59:45
  for me. So I said, OK, so what's your
• 59:47
  terms of reference? So he says, no, my terms of
• 59:50
  reference are that or what we, for example, might call the
• 59:54
  lowest common denominator that it has to be in the Sunni text
• 59:59
  and in the sheer texts and in the Zaidi texts.
• 1:00:03
  So this is the lowest common denominator.
• 1:00:06
  So I said no. Why if I believe that Amir
• 1:00:10
  Normani Salaam is Imam so that's it.
• 1:00:12
  Now if he says to me after me X person is going to be imam then
• 1:00:15
  after me that's enough. Sufficient.
• 1:00:17
  Yeah, he says. No, you have to bring proof for
• 1:00:19
  every single one. I said no next because.
• 1:00:23
  My truth is my. Truth, I said.
• 1:00:26
  Because my terms of reference are that EDIL Gadir proves that
• 1:00:31
  has to be involvement in every time, whereas your terms of
• 1:00:35
  reference are that it has to be in each and every text, which is
• 1:00:38
  not. But that's your, that's your
• 1:00:40
  flawed argument. That's your terms of reference.
• 1:00:41
  So because of your terms of reference are different.
• 1:00:44
  That's why you're coming to different different conclusion.
• 1:00:48
  Yeah, yeah, it's going to be a flawed argument.
• 1:00:50
  Like you can't ever find that lowest common denominator
• 1:00:54
  denominator argument. You can't.
• 1:00:55
  You can't. Doesn't work.
• 1:00:56
  It's very. You see it more often nowadays,
• 1:00:58
  so panel on a lot on a lot of these YouTube channels, these
• 1:01:01
  new era social media channels. You see this thing now that we
• 1:01:05
  take from all month hubs and we take from all of them and
• 1:01:09
  whichever, whichever the kind of parallels we find between them,
• 1:01:13
  we accept. All Muslims believe it,
• 1:01:15
  therefore it must be true. Do you see what I mean?
• 1:01:17
  This is similar to the point I mentioned earlier about the
• 1:01:19
  Baha'i faith. To what extent do you accept
• 1:01:22
  religious pluralism? But you know, Ahmed mentioned
• 1:01:24
  the point where you you spoke about Karbala.
• 1:01:28
  And and it brings me also to a point we've had reference, we've
• 1:01:32
  referenced it on many podcasts, even as recent as the one we
• 1:01:36
  have on sale. Hamid Barker as we knew when it
• 1:01:38
  came to recognizing Imam Mehdi, like in Karbala, they you know,
• 1:01:43
  the enemy, the army fighting about Abdullah Hussein, Ali
• 1:01:46
  Salaam, they believed in Allah, Allah, Muhammad Rasool Allah.
• 1:01:50
  They knew he was about Abdullah. They knew he was the son of Atma
• 1:01:53
  Zara, the grandson of Rasool Allah.
• 1:01:56
  Yet they still attacked him, killed him, both of them,
• 1:01:59
  massacred his family, his companions.
• 1:02:04
  So why is it say it like I want to understand this.
• 1:02:07
  Why is it when someone has presented the truth, they see
• 1:02:09
  the truth, they can taste the truth, they can smell the truth.
• 1:02:14
  They are in Karbala, they're there with Imam Hussein, they
• 1:02:17
  know his Haq. He's fighting for Haq, he's
• 1:02:19
  standing for Haq. What makes someone reject it?
• 1:02:23
  Like if someone believes in Allah, Muhammad Rasulullah, why
• 1:02:26
  would you reject the truth? It's that I don't understand
• 1:02:29
  until today. I think that, you know,
• 1:02:32
  alhamdulillah Bilal, I mean, we, we are living in a time and in a
• 1:02:40
  place where our, you know, practicing our beliefs or having
• 1:02:46
  or holding our beliefs is not threatening to my life.
• 1:02:51
  OK. It's not, you know, I'm not.
• 1:02:53
  I have no direct threat to my life or to my family or to my,
• 1:02:57
  you know, my honour, for example.
• 1:03:01
  But of course that's not the case in many places.
• 1:03:04
  And also especially during the time of, for example, Yazid or
• 1:03:11
  during the time of such tyrants where there are people who
• 1:03:17
  genuinely, for example, they are scared.
• 1:03:22
  They're all they're enough is leading them towards, for
• 1:03:28
  example, that way, you know, we have that story.
• 1:03:30
  For example, after the day of Ashura, there's a person I don't
• 1:03:35
  want to say the wrong name, so I'll just say one person the in
• 1:03:39
  the right, it does actually mention that person's name, but
• 1:03:42
  the name is not is not with me at the moment.
• 1:03:47
  And this person is actually holding on to the Khilaf of
• 1:03:50
  Kaaba, and he's begging for forgiveness.
• 1:03:54
  And somebody recognizes that this is one of the people who
• 1:03:59
  was. Who took part in the back?
• 1:04:01
  Took part on the day of Ashura and that person says to him,
• 1:04:06
  obviously now you know Yazid is gone and the time is different.
• 1:04:10
  So somebody says to him that why do you think that you're going
• 1:04:15
  to get forgiveness from God when you took part in the massacre,
• 1:04:20
  in the killing, murder of the grandson of the Prophet
• 1:04:23
  Salahuddin. So this person says that go away
• 1:04:27
  from me. And you don't know that we were,
• 1:04:31
  you know, for example, what situation we were in or, you
• 1:04:34
  know, we were following orders and, you know, we didn't have a
• 1:04:38
  say in, for example, in in, in doing this.
• 1:04:43
  Of course, that was his excuse. And that was the excuse, for
• 1:04:48
  example, even when Mokhtar brought the people to, you know,
• 1:04:52
  confess for their crimes, they each each and every single one
• 1:04:57
  of those people whom he brought, they just the start of the
• 1:05:01
  conversation with this, there are no, we were just following
• 1:05:04
  orders. We didn't have any choice.
• 1:05:06
  We were just following orders. And then obviously he would make
• 1:05:09
  them confess and so on and so forth.
• 1:05:11
  But of course, we every year mention the story of horror,
• 1:05:17
  which reminds us, which gives us all hope that of course a person
• 1:05:22
  can, you know, as long as they come towards Abdullah, they can
• 1:05:26
  get salvation even at the last minute, even the moments before
• 1:05:30
  they die. But we have in the mahat
• 1:05:33
  generations that it's not just horror.
• 1:05:36
  There's other people who also left The Who deserted Yazid and
• 1:05:42
  came to the side of, but there's not a single person who went
• 1:05:46
  from the side of towards the side of Yazid.
• 1:05:50
  Just in itself a fascinating well.
• 1:05:52
  That's beautiful. A fascinating which is which is
• 1:05:55
  a fascinating thing to see that on the day of Ashura, you know,
• 1:05:59
  on the side of Imam Hussein Al Salam, there's thirst, there's
• 1:06:03
  hunger, There is, you know, less people, there's less resources.
• 1:06:07
  They know that they're all going to get massacred.
• 1:06:09
  They're all going to die on the day of Ashura.
• 1:06:12
  Yet there's no, there's no single narration, no false, no
• 1:06:16
  weak narration which states that a single person went from
• 1:06:21
  outside to you as you'd say, yes.
• 1:06:24
  For example, there might be some narrations that, you know, when
• 1:06:26
  I was selling some part of the candle, some people left.
• 1:06:30
  Debatable. Again, maybe a little
• 1:06:32
  controversial 1 here. You know, some people, some
• 1:06:34
  people say no, nobody left. But yes, maybe some people, it
• 1:06:37
  was the darkness of night. We don't know some, maybe some
• 1:06:40
  people left, but nobody went to the side of Yazid.
• 1:06:44
  Yeah, but yes, from the side of Yazid or from the side of Omar
• 1:06:48
  al-Assad, apart from horror, we have at least ten other people
• 1:06:52
  who came to the side of on the day of Ashura before the battle
• 1:06:59
  commenced. So really and truly that day or
• 1:07:04
  maybe in Monsanto, Salam's stand, it was there to show
• 1:07:08
  that, you know, coming back to the Huck and the identifying
• 1:07:14
  Huck is that Huck is asking me for sacrifice and is my nafs, is
• 1:07:23
  my soul willing to sacrifice? Is it willing to go through
• 1:07:28
  difficult? You know, how much value does my
• 1:07:31
  nafs, my soul have for Huck is the question that Imam was
• 1:07:35
  saying that Salaam is asking on the day of Ashura.
• 1:07:37
  So, you know, and, and of course the, the beautiful thing about
• 1:07:42
  this is that you've got the people who are not Muslims who
• 1:07:48
  are reading about Imam al Senador Salaam or for example,
• 1:07:53
  going to Abahin of Imam al Senador Salaam.
• 1:07:56
  And they are giving the testament that, yes,
• 1:08:00
  theologically that person is different to my faith, but he
• 1:08:06
  recognizes the truth because Imam Hussein al Salaam embodies
• 1:08:13
  and this person recognizes that, or this person recognizes to.
• 1:08:17
  And maybe that's an answer. For example, like you're saying
• 1:08:21
  that when we're young, we think of things of like, what would
• 1:08:26
  have happened if this happened? So what would have happened, for
• 1:08:29
  example, if Imam Hussein al Salaam hadn't been killed?
• 1:08:31
  Let's say Imam Hussein al Salaam went to Karbala, or he didn't go
• 1:08:37
  to Karbala, for example. He went to Yazid and he
• 1:08:39
  overthrew Yazid and he came in his position.
• 1:08:43
  Then what would have happened after some time?
• 1:08:46
  I was saying that Salam would have passed away, and then it
• 1:08:48
  would have gone back to what it was like before.
• 1:08:51
  Yeah, but by Imam Salah do Salam giving his life, he did
• 1:08:57
  something that makes every person who reads the story or
• 1:09:02
  hears the story pause to think that what was happening that was
• 1:09:08
  so severe that the grandson of the Prophet Salallahu Asylum had
• 1:09:14
  to give his life to in order to preserve.
• 1:09:18
  And how valuable must that be for him to do that?
• 1:09:23
  So maybe when it comes to pluralism, it's it is or the
• 1:09:33
  prophet Salallahu, Salaam's family and rather never Salaam,
• 1:09:36
  just their, you know, their presence, their, their them
• 1:09:41
  being there on the scene. That's that gives us insight
• 1:09:44
  into into into hug. I think, I think there's so many
• 1:09:51
  powerful ways you mentioned this.
• 1:09:53
  And of course, we're fast approaching the the, the blessed
• 1:09:55
  month of Mahadram and Inshallah, a lot of food for thought for us
• 1:09:59
  in terms of how we can use this blessed month coming to align
• 1:10:02
  ourselves with Haqq, how we can find ourselves in a position
• 1:10:06
  where we would be like those who join the Imam or those who never
• 1:10:10
  left the Imam. And you know, that's something
• 1:10:13
  we strive for something which a friend mentioned to me earlier
• 1:10:15
  today on this conversation was that one way of looking at it.
• 1:10:19
  And obviously we see Andrew Wyatt a lot about those who at
• 1:10:22
  the time of the whole of the Holy Imam of the Sharif, we hear
• 1:10:27
  a lot about those who are strange who will come towards
• 1:10:32
  Islam as well. Of course, there's Rawat that
• 1:10:34
  say Islam started strange and will come back as strange, but
• 1:10:37
  also people who come towards Islam who one would not expect
• 1:10:40
  to be coming towards the holy religion.
• 1:10:42
  And I think my own kind of reflection on, on this is that
• 1:10:47
  there are those who perhaps may not theologically align with
• 1:10:51
  their religion, but may morally and on a humanistic level
• 1:10:54
  aligned with the values of the Ahmed Beit al him Salaam.
• 1:10:57
  And I think those kinds of people will find some form of
• 1:11:01
  salvation. This is my personal opinion, but
• 1:11:04
  I believe people who do not conflict with anything which is
• 1:11:08
  Huck and they don't have a moral and A and a worldly confliction
• 1:11:12
  with any of that. And they do align to, for
• 1:11:15
  example, the, the core values of truth, of goodness, of dignity,
• 1:11:19
  of honor, things that we preach and we share with, with humans
• 1:11:22
  alike. Those people will find the mercy
• 1:11:27
  that that they're looking for from Allah's panel to either.
• 1:11:30
  And of course, as you mentioned saying that there's, there's
• 1:11:32
  different rankings and hierarchies.
• 1:11:34
  There's like plenty of hadith about this in, in, in the
• 1:11:38
  hereafter where that stands. But it's not black and white.
• 1:11:42
  And it doesn't matter if I say I'm a Muslim, I'm good.
• 1:11:46
  I can relax and chill because I'm going to go to heaven and my
• 1:11:50
  colleague at work won't. It does not work like that.
• 1:11:53
  And it, you know, but that's not something I think we can
• 1:11:55
  definitively says is what will happen.
• 1:11:59
  For sure. I mean, for example, like if we
• 1:12:01
  come back or to as you were saying to to to people that for
• 1:12:08
  example, we may not assume or may not think.
• 1:12:12
  So you know, on a Mac micro level, we can we can see that in
• 1:12:16
  our own communities. Course, we, we mentioned the
• 1:12:19
  example of what that, you know, this, this story, and I always
• 1:12:25
  mentioned this in Muharram that, you know, Salaam story.
• 1:12:28
  The biggest lesson I think for us in today's day and age and
• 1:12:32
  the way that we live our lives from this story is that the door
• 1:12:38
  of Imam Salaam is always open for everyone.
• 1:12:40
  Yeah, at any time. You know, sometimes we have this
• 1:12:43
  notion, maybe we don't say aloud, but you know, I'm
• 1:12:47
  thinking in my mind. Oh, this person, for example,
• 1:12:50
  hasn't come to the mosque in years and now it's shown up and
• 1:12:54
  I was to be involved. So what maybe yesterday or today
• 1:13:00
  a lot of $100 gave him to come. So, so who am I to judge and say
• 1:13:07
  that, you know, this person came or for example, this person got
• 1:13:11
  guided. You know, I just now I had a
• 1:13:14
  conversation, this Jamaican brother and he's been a Muslim
• 1:13:19
  for, I don't know, 30 odd years. So he was saying, oh, you know,
• 1:13:24
  you guys are blessed. You were born into Islam.
• 1:13:26
  And I said, no, I, I, if you ask me, I feel like you are blessed
• 1:13:31
  because Al Hamdi, I didn't have to do any hard work to become
• 1:13:34
  Muslim. I was born in Muslim.
• 1:13:36
  You searched and you became Muslim.
• 1:13:41
  You accepted Islam, you found Haq, you found a little better
• 1:13:47
  than was allowed to Islam, and you did that a a difficult time
• 1:13:52
  in your life. For example, you know, you you
• 1:13:56
  were in your 40s when you came to Islam.
• 1:13:59
  That's not easy time for a person to change their beliefs.
• 1:14:03
  You know, for example, somebody changes their belief when
• 1:14:05
  they're a teenager or maybe in their 20s.
• 1:14:08
  It's very different to somebody who changed their beliefs when
• 1:14:10
  they're in their 40s or in their 50s.
• 1:14:11
  Yeah. You know, so that's not an easy
• 1:14:13
  time to change your beliefs. You have to change your whole
• 1:14:15
  life, you know, because you accepted, you know what you But
• 1:14:22
  this is the strength of conviction.
• 1:14:25
  That's if a person has a conviction, they can leave
• 1:14:27
  everything on their past life and come to Islam.
• 1:14:30
  But at the conversely, like you said that you can have the
• 1:14:35
  grandson of the province in front of you and you give no
• 1:14:40
  thought to the fact that I'm I'm, I'm ruining my life because
• 1:14:44
  I'm not acknowledging the truth. So really, you know, it is
• 1:14:47
  sometimes it is those little things.
• 1:14:50
  It's one conversation, it's one sentence, it's one statement.
• 1:14:53
  It's something you said, you know, I think about 10 years
• 1:14:57
  ago, I was with a group on Ziara and we went to see say Sistani
• 1:15:05
  of the Allah. So I had the opportunity after a
• 1:15:10
  long time to ask him because I was doing the translation, that
• 1:15:14
  I had the opportunity to ask him a question.
• 1:15:17
  So I got my question in Ellie and I said to him that, you
• 1:15:20
  know, I have this opportunity to be with young people a lot.
• 1:15:27
  So what are some of your advice to them?
• 1:15:33
  And he said something really, really, you know, it's very
• 1:15:36
  obvious and simple. It's very powerful.
• 1:15:39
  He said to me that you live in a place where the majority of
• 1:15:44
  people are not Muslims. You live in a country where the
• 1:15:47
  majority of people are not Muslims.
• 1:15:48
  So he says tell young people that I said, and this he was, he
• 1:15:52
  was very emphatic that he said tell them that I sent this to
• 1:15:56
  them, that you live in a place where majority of people are not
• 1:15:59
  Muslim. And so it is imperative that
• 1:16:04
  your behaviour with those people who are not Muslim is better
• 1:16:11
  than your behaviour with Muslims.
• 1:16:13
  Because one thing that you say or you do could bring that
• 1:16:19
  person towards Islam or take them away from and you'll be
• 1:16:22
  responsible for whether you bring them towards Islam or you
• 1:16:28
  take them away from Islam. And that gives you insight.
• 1:16:32
  That's how deeply he as he says himself whenever you go to see
• 1:16:36
  him that he studies the affairs of I show you all over the world
• 1:16:41
  two hours every morning after he says I read about every single
• 1:16:46
  country where they are she are living and what's going on in
• 1:16:51
  their lives. Beautiful every single country
• 1:16:55
  for two hours. He says every night my team,
• 1:16:57
  they gather all the news, they translate it into Farsi and then
• 1:17:01
  every morning after two hours after fidget, he reads about
• 1:17:05
  every like a summary of each and every country what's going on.
• 1:17:09
  So when he gave this insight, I remember when I reflected on I
• 1:17:12
  said I said to him that I said that more than for young people.
• 1:17:16
  This is for me, yeah. This this advice you're giving
• 1:17:20
  to me that you know how important it is for a person
• 1:17:23
  who's living in a country who, where I am representing Islam.
• 1:17:27
  I am representing to show you. I am representing, if you like
• 1:17:31
  how And so that is that must only.
• 1:17:33
  Yeah, yeah, is is increased. Now, you know, for example, a
• 1:17:36
  country where everyone's, for example, Muslim is different.
• 1:17:38
  There's that that is not the same As for example, we're
• 1:17:42
  living here or and that extends, for example, on social media
• 1:17:45
  that I'm representing to show you I'm representing Islam.
• 1:17:48
  I'm representing and each and every person because of course,
• 1:17:52
  especially on social media, like for example, let's say here I'm
• 1:17:56
  dressed in a way which identifies me, that I'm a
• 1:17:59
  student of religion. But on social media, everybody's
• 1:18:03
  the same. Very true.
• 1:18:05
  Right. And if I have, for example, in
• 1:18:08
  my bio 313 or like little car or whatever, then I'm representing
• 1:18:13
  Toshio. So now if I'm then, for example,
• 1:18:15
  saying something or doing something which is not
• 1:18:17
  appropriate and it's in front of everybody, then that's make you
• 1:18:22
  know, that is, that's even greater than, for example, if I
• 1:18:25
  was just doing, doing on the road, because that's now.
• 1:18:28
  And for example, now kids nowadays are realizing that, you
• 1:18:32
  know, nothing really gets deleted off the Internet.
• 1:18:34
  If you if you look hard enough and long enough, you can find
• 1:18:38
  everything, even those things which have been deleted.
• 1:18:41
  And like, for example, these politicians are finding out
• 1:18:43
  like, you know, these tweets from 10 years ago, this Facebook
• 1:18:46
  program 10 years ago, everything is in archives.
• 1:18:49
  And you know, if they want to use that against you, they can.
• 1:18:52
  They can use, yeah. And they are using against
• 1:18:55
  people right right now, which which we know that, you know,
• 1:18:58
  post that they, for example, made like 10 years ago when they
• 1:19:00
  didn't even know they're going to run for office.
• 1:19:02
  And now this person, he gets elected.
• 1:19:05
  Now they both bring up, oh, ten years ago, 10 years ago you said
• 1:19:09
  this or 15 years ago said this is very, this is very important.
• 1:19:12
  A lot of the time you see these people expose, expose their
• 1:19:15
  their thoughts and whatnot and, and they put on that facade and
• 1:19:19
  they go out absolutely office or they have a public platform,
• 1:19:22
  they get cancelled. Yeah, it's mad.
• 1:19:24
  It's. Look, it's All in all, it's been
• 1:19:25
  a fantastic discussion, said. I feel like we've only just.
• 1:19:28
  Touched the surface. Yeah, we say this a lot,
• 1:19:31
  honestly said. But we've just truly scratched
• 1:19:35
  the surface. I.
• 1:19:36
  Think this question we we actually say this a conversation
• 1:19:39
  in itself, Yeah, requires a separate.
• 1:19:41
  Podcast we wanted to go into like, you know, cosmic justice
• 1:19:44
  and whatnot. We touched a bit on Adala, but
• 1:19:47
  there's a lot more to of course, and there's a lot more, I think.
• 1:19:50
  And Charlotte, hopefully people can can reach out to you.
• 1:19:52
  You're very active online. Are you comfortable for people
• 1:19:55
  to reach out to if. I'll have that, of course.
• 1:19:57
  Yeah, amazing, amazing. Say Ali.
• 1:19:59
  Any final thoughts? I just want to say thank you for
• 1:20:02
  sharing that advice that was given.
• 1:20:05
  To you, Yeah. Beautiful.
• 1:20:06
  I. Understand because of this
• 1:20:08
  absolutely, absolutely. It's very true Yanni.
• 1:20:11
  I I don't I don't want to take much more of your time say that
• 1:20:13
  about coming to think of it when when we interact with
• 1:20:17
  non-Muslims, they've 99% of the time never picked up the Quran.
• 1:20:22
  They've never read the words of Allah.
• 1:20:24
  They don't know nothing about Rasul Allah.
• 1:20:26
  They've never come across a Sierra.
• 1:20:28
  They don't know who this mercy to mankind is.
• 1:20:30
  Yeah. And how we, you know, act and
• 1:20:32
  how we and. Maybe and maybe, sorry to
• 1:20:35
  interject you, but maybe for this person you might be the
• 1:20:39
  only. The only.
• 1:20:41
  Shia or only Muslim person that they mean the whole life, the
• 1:20:44
  whole life. Many of times that is the case
• 1:20:48
  so so that increases each and everyone of us responsibility.
• 1:20:53
  To sent some say that may Allah protect you and bless you for
• 1:20:55
  her words of wisdom and gems and advice he's given us today.
• 1:20:59
  So much to reflect on. And Charlotte, we do reflect,
• 1:21:01
  you know, an hour of reflection. Equals of course. 70 years of
• 1:21:05
  Agatha, of course, of course said.
• 1:21:08
  Said, thank you again. Thank you very much.
• 1:21:10
  Appreciate it. You've you've taken time to be
• 1:21:13
  here. We prayed, Margaret.
• 1:21:15
  And then we start straight after Margaret and Charlotte.
• 1:21:21
  We see you against it. Please.
• 1:21:22
  Thank you so much for coming. Thank brother Sisters, as
• 1:21:26
  always, thank you for being here.
• 1:21:28
  It's been a great conversation. I'm surely agree.
• 1:21:31
  That said, Zafar Abbas is highly eloquent, highly intelligent.
• 1:21:34
  He's well versed not just in Islamic studies, but in so many
• 1:21:37
  other theories and, and ideologies as well, which he's
• 1:21:40
  looked into. So please do check his work out.
• 1:21:42
  And so, so many years worth of content that he's he's got
• 1:21:46
  online as well for us to learn from.
• 1:21:48
  So, Ali, be back next week. And shot Allah hit the subscribe
• 1:21:53
  button, become a partner buyer much aftermath.com See you soon
• 1:21:58
  with Salaam Alaikum Allahi.