Latest / Woodlands Church Academy's Podcast / Summer'25 Bible School- Reading Proverbs- Session 3- Dan Viner & Tim Dobson

Transcript

Summer'25 Bible School- Reading Proverbs- Session 3- Dan Viner & Tim Dobson · Woodlands Church Academy's Podcast

0:01
SPEAKER_11: Alright, good evening everyone! Welcome to Bible School Summer Series.
0:08
SPEAKER_11: Wisdom Literature Part 3, the Book of Proverbs.
0:11
SPEAKER_11: Welcome.
0:12
SPEAKER_11: Thank you all for coming.
0:13
SPEAKER_11: Nice to see some of you back after having attended previously.
0:17
SPEAKER_11: It can't have been that bad.
0:18
SPEAKER_11: That's really good.
0:20
SPEAKER_11: As you may or may not it, we're doing wisdom literature this summer in our Bible school.
0:25
SPEAKER_11: If you've not been here before, it's a chance where we can dig into a theme, a book, uh a style of literature from the Bible in a little bit more detail that we can't do on a Sunday evening.
0:35
SPEAKER_11: It's a chance where you can ask questions as well.
0:37
SPEAKER_11: Feel free to raise a hand or to ask a question at the end if you have anything you'd like to discuss.
0:42
SPEAKER_11: We're going to be doing some talking to each other at different points just to chat something through.
0:46
SPEAKER_11: But um, yeah, we're doing proverbs today.
0:49
SPEAKER_11: Um when you think of wisdom literature in the Bible, it's probably the book that you think of first.
0:54
SPEAKER_11: So we'll be digging into a little bit what that actually means and and where um where that kind of fits into that wider wisdom literature, which, as we talked about in previous weeks, is uh Proverbs, Psalms, Ecclesiastes, Job, and Song of Songs.
1:09
SPEAKER_11: Those are the five books we're looking at across the four-week series.
1:12
SPEAKER_11: But I'm gonna kick us off um with just talking a little bit about what what this book actually is.
1:24
SPEAKER_11: You we we we talk about wisdom, um, but uh we've not maybe dug into practically what that means in this context.
1:31
SPEAKER_11: A lot of the other books, wisdom seems kind of maybe tangential.
1:35
SPEAKER_11: Obviously, Job is a story, there's a lot of poetry, Psalms is songs, and there's wisdom in there, but this book is is wisdom at its heart, and it's you know what we probably think of when we say wisdom in the Bible.
1:46
SPEAKER_11: But actually, what does that look like?
1:49
SPEAKER_11: What does that actually mean?
1:50
SPEAKER_11: It's quite different to a lot of the rest of the Bible.
1:52
SPEAKER_11: It's it's directly telling you this is how you should live your life.
1:56
SPEAKER_11: But the authority that that is based on is different than a lot of the Bible.
2:01
SPEAKER_11: It is it's a father to a son, is really the kind of the voice that we hear.
2:06
SPEAKER_11: It's not like the law, which is you know, God delivers literally in his own voice from on high to Moses or on the Ten Commandments.
2:14
SPEAKER_11: It's not like a prophecy, which is you know, someone saying, God's literally saying this through me.
2:19
SPEAKER_11: It's a different kind of authority.
2:21
SPEAKER_11: We see in chapter 1, verse 8, it's a parent speaking to a child, and it's representative of human wisdom being passed down between the generations.
2:31
SPEAKER_11: It's very, very human feeling, actually, you know, exactly like your parents might have said to you, you know, sit down, give you some advice, your grandparents.
2:38
SPEAKER_11: It feels quite like that.
2:40
SPEAKER_11: But the authority is still there.
2:42
SPEAKER_11: We'll dig into a little bit what that looks like and where that comes from.
2:45
SPEAKER_11: But it does feel quite different, and it's maybe important to acknowledge that at the start.
2:50
SPEAKER_11: But this word wisdom, what does that actually mean?
2:54
SPEAKER_11: Who is it for?
2:55
SPEAKER_11: What does that look like?
2:56
SPEAKER_11: We'll uh not do too much linguistics, don't worry.
3:00
SPEAKER_11: But the word wisdom is this one here on the screen, hochmark, which is uh a Hebrew word, um, which is got way too many K's for my liking, but essentially it's it's not like wisdom as we might have in our mindset.
3:16
SPEAKER_11: It's not just knowing things, there is a doing element to it.
3:21
SPEAKER_11: There's an applied wisdom um element sort of encased in that word.
3:28
SPEAKER_11: This this verse here, um, Exodus 31, is actually the the first usage uh of the term um spirit being given to someone specifically for a purpose in the Bible.
3:38
SPEAKER_11: That's quite significant uh in the kind of Hebrew tradition.
3:41
SPEAKER_11: But this guy Bezalel is the guy who is he's chosen to make the Ark of the Covenant, basically.
3:46
SPEAKER_11: He's chosen to craft the inside of the tabernacle, God's house uh with Israel.
3:50
SPEAKER_11: And God says, I filled him with the Spirit of God with wisdom to make stuff.
3:55
SPEAKER_11: It's not wisdom to know how to you know interpret the stars, it's wisdom for making.
4:00
SPEAKER_11: There is uh a strong active element in wisdom in the Bible encased in this word hochmark that we can interpret from that that this book, Proverbs, when right at the start it says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, it's not just the fear of the Lord is knowing about God.
4:20
SPEAKER_11: There is something that needs to be done off the back of it.
4:23
SPEAKER_11: This is about developing a set of practical skills for living well in God's world.
4:28
SPEAKER_11: And as I said, it's linked to the fear of the Lord.
4:32
SPEAKER_11: If you've got a Bible in front of you, if you've got a phone, we'll be um reading um through chapter one in just a second.
4:38
SPEAKER_11: Um, but that uh chapter one, verse seven, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
4:45
SPEAKER_11: There's a reverence, there's an awe implied in that.
4:48
SPEAKER_11: There's a humbling of ourselves before God, encased in that term.
4:54
SPEAKER_11: Um, and it's about acknowledging that we don't get to choose the best way to live, even if that's a bit inconvenient to us at times.
4:59
SPEAKER_11: That's what the book of Proverbs is about.
5:02
SPEAKER_11: Now, we're gonna do um a quick little bit of reading.
5:04
SPEAKER_11: That's one of the values that we like to sort of to inhabit here at Bible School.
5:08
SPEAKER_11: Now, I'm aware I'm putting people on the spot.
5:10
SPEAKER_11: Would anyone like to read Proverbs chapter one for us?
5:14
SPEAKER_11: It's okay if not, I'm very happy to read it.
5:16
SPEAKER_11: But um, if anyone has a desire to read, it'd be great to hear from you.
5:22
SPEAKER_11: Sure.
5:22
SPEAKER_11: Great.
5:23
SPEAKER_11: Could you read chapter one?
5:25
SPEAKER_11: A problem for us.
5:26
SPEAKER_11: Yeah, thank you, Nate.
5:28
SPEAKER_15: The problems of Salomon and Salah Dev, you know, if gaining wisdom and instruction, for understanding words and receiving instruction and prudent.
5:41
SPEAKER_15: For giving prudence to those who are saying knowledge and discretion to wise and understanding problems and saying that's all the words.
7:12
SPEAKER_15: How long will you who are single knowledge after you were single?
7:16
SPEAKER_15: How long will walkers of the light of mockery and fools hate knowledge?
7:21
SPEAKER_15: Repent at my roof at my relief, and I will pour out my philosophy, and I will make known to you my nature, since you refuse to listen to what I go.
7:30
SPEAKER_15: And no one pays attention when I stretch out my hand, since you have disregarded all my advice and do not have my relief.
7:37
SPEAKER_15: I will die in turn and will laugh when disaster stretch you.
7:40
SPEAKER_15: I will mock when calamity overtakes you.
7:43
SPEAKER_15: When calamity overtakes you like a soul, when disasters control you like a world, and distress control, they will then they will call to me, but I won't answer.
7:55
SPEAKER_15: And they will look for it, but they will not find it.
7:58
SPEAKER_15: Because they hate the mind, they're not choose to fear the world, since they will not accept my advice on the burn my way.
8:05
SPEAKER_15: They will need to find their way.
8:11
SPEAKER_15: For the way we're not saying it will kill them.
8:14
SPEAKER_15: The complacency of all those words.
8:17
SPEAKER_15: Whoever listens to me will live in safety and be at least without fear or hard.
8:25
SPEAKER_11: Amazing.
8:26
SPEAKER_11: Thank you very much.
8:28
SPEAKER_11: Now, that's proverbs one.
8:31
SPEAKER_11: Does it feel very proverb y, particularly?
8:35
SPEAKER_11: Maybe not.
8:36
SPEAKER_11: I mean, one one thing I'd like you to do now is in two threes just where you are, talk about what is a proverb.
8:44
SPEAKER_11: Uh you've had a couple of minutes, maybe start uh defining your little uh your sentences together.
8:51
SPEAKER_11: Um people on this on this side of the room over here.
8:54
SPEAKER_11: Uh on this side.
8:55
SPEAKER_11: Anyone anything they'd like to share?
8:58
SPEAKER_11: Uh any any thoughts on what what a proverb is for you guys?
9:01
SPEAKER_11: This this sort of third.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: We have a godly pearl of wisdom.
9:04
SPEAKER_11: A godly pearl of wisdom.
9:06
SPEAKER_11: So it needs to be religious, doesn't it?
9:10
unknown: Perhaps probably.
9:11
SPEAKER_11: Okay, so it's div it's there's some divinity inherent in it, okay?
9:15
SPEAKER_14: There's a bit of threat in in it as well, isn't there?
9:19
SPEAKER_11: Okay.
9:19
SPEAKER_14: This is going to happen to you if you don't listen to it.
9:21
SPEAKER_11: Okay, yeah.
9:21
SPEAKER_11: No, so there's like a there's a real, there's a payoff either way.
9:25
SPEAKER_11: Uh like this happens if you do this.
9:27
SPEAKER_11: There's there's a cause and effect.
9:29
SPEAKER_09: So a memorable phrase which has a a nugget of wisdom, which you can apply to your life.
9:36
SPEAKER_11: Yeah.
9:37
SPEAKER_11: Yeah, I think we're all getting at something there.
9:39
SPEAKER_11: There's there's sort of there's something maybe inherent underneath it, there's maybe a divine element that is applicable to life that there's cause and effect there.
9:47
SPEAKER_11: That's that's interesting.
9:48
SPEAKER_11: What about you guys in the middle?
9:49
SPEAKER_11: Any any thoughts on what a proverb is from your perspectives?
9:53
SPEAKER_14: Something that's short and punchy that hits straight to the heart.
9:57
SPEAKER_11: Short and punchy, hits straight to the heart, just like that definition.
10:01
SPEAKER_11: Say again, sorry?
10:02
unknown: Like a moral teaching?
10:03
SPEAKER_11: A moral teaching.
10:04
SPEAKER_11: So there's a moral element to proverb as well, links to what you were saying about it being being godly.
10:09
SPEAKER_02: I think it's a surface level quote that has a deeper meaning, but it's somehow also linked to that surface level quote.
10:16
SPEAKER_02: Like it's gotta be easily intelligible, like straight away you've got to get it.
10:20
SPEAKER_02: In Swahili, like you kind of used to finish like proverbs.
10:24
SPEAKER_02: That was like one of the exam things we used to do in Swahili.
10:28
SPEAKER_02: I was just saying that like if you follow, if you follow a bee, you get honey.
10:34
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
10:35
SPEAKER_02: So like there's a surfacing of the bee and the honey, but then like there's deeper stuff when I see it.
10:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, multiple layers of meaning.
10:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but then it still links to the honey.
10:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
10:44
SPEAKER_11: That's really interesting.
10:45
SPEAKER_11: I guess it's sometimes a bit like the Bible, to be honest.
10:47
SPEAKER_11: There's a there's a surface meaning, which is anyone can understand, but then you can dig deeper and find more and find more.
10:52
SPEAKER_11: That's great.
10:53
SPEAKER_11: What about you guys over here?
10:54
SPEAKER_11: Any thoughts on on proverbs?
10:56
SPEAKER_12: I thought of um like um holy advice, like advice about how to do things by holiness.
11:04
SPEAKER_11: Again, with that sort of divinity, godly, godly theme.
11:07
SPEAKER_11: Uh anything else, last one?
11:09
SPEAKER_11: A wise thing.
11:10
SPEAKER_11: A wise saying, yeah.
11:12
SPEAKER_11: Okay.
11:12
SPEAKER_11: I mean, all completely valid, and I think it shows the sort of diversity of experience, you know, international, you know, proverbs and the way that we are we're approaching this.
11:21
SPEAKER_11: But I I just literally Googled what is the definition of a proverb, and Cambridge Dictionary says which, you know, here are a few, you know, from around the world and from the UK.
11:32
SPEAKER_11: Cambridge Dictionary says a proverb is a short statement, usually known by many people for a long time, that gives advice or expresses some common truth.
11:40
SPEAKER_11: Which I think actually we've we've hit some nuances there in our definitions that maybe capture something a bit more than that, you know, we some of something about morality or you know, cause and effect, all that kind of thing.
11:52
SPEAKER_11: I think it's interesting that, I mean, as Faniki's referenced, every every culture collects proverbs, every culture has its own little sayings that just sum something up that we all kind of know already, which is quite interesting.
12:03
SPEAKER_11: It's a it's a clever way of passing on the insight that comes from experience across generations that you know, someone of my age, uh 30, I can speak to my grandparents who are in their in their 80s and they can distill some of their wisdom and just give it to me in a sentence rather than me having to live an extra 50 years to acquire it.
12:23
SPEAKER_11: It's about sharing and storing wisdom.
12:26
SPEAKER_11: And I think that you know that's a pretty good definition of of what a proverb is.
12:30
SPEAKER_11: You know, we've we've got a few examples here, you know, really obvious, the kind of thing that just makes sense to us straight away, but there is maybe some deeper meaning beneath them.
12:38
SPEAKER_11: You know, this one here.
12:39
SPEAKER_11: The path is made by walking.
12:41
SPEAKER_11: Yeah, the path's already there, but then you can make your own path by walking, but then you you can see if you dig into them, there's more beneath, and there's something that you can grasp instantly, but if you sit with there's maybe more meaning there.
12:53
SPEAKER_11: But all of these are I mean, it's it's interesting that actually that definition doesn't include divinity, doesn't include morality necessarily, it's just a way of expressing a common truth, something that everyone kind of knows already.
13:08
SPEAKER_11: Many hands make like work.
13:09
SPEAKER_11: It's easier doing a job with someone else because the work is split.
13:13
SPEAKER_11: That makes sense.
13:14
SPEAKER_11: But when we see proverbs in the Bible, which are, you know, in a context historically, there are lots of other collections of proverbs and wise sayings from that time.
13:24
SPEAKER_11: There's dozens of them from, you know, as far back as you know, ancient Samaria, two and a half thousand years earlier, uh, there are right up to sort of the Roman, the Roman time, people would collect pithy sayings, you know, clever quotes.
13:38
SPEAKER_11: But they don't have the divinity element.
13:40
SPEAKER_11: There might be a morality there, but they're not explicitly linked to the divine very often.
13:45
SPEAKER_11: Proverbs is a bit different in that it's elevated to the divine level.
13:49
SPEAKER_11: It's more than just human wisdom, but it is expressed in a human way.
13:54
SPEAKER_11: And that's something interesting.
13:55
SPEAKER_11: We'll dig into that in a moment.
13:57
SPEAKER_11: So we know we can see that they're they're linked to Solomon, we see that right from the start.
14:01
SPEAKER_11: You know, these are Proverbs of Solomon, Son of David.
14:03
SPEAKER_11: He's probably, you know, he's he's definitely written a lot of these, we're we're we're confident that.
14:07
SPEAKER_11: In One Kings, it says he wrote he wrote thousands of Proverbs.
14:10
SPEAKER_11: They were compiled probably hundreds of years later, you know, a bit like the rest of the Bible.
14:15
SPEAKER_11: They were written down and they were brought together, collected by editors further down the line.
14:20
SPEAKER_11: Um, and like I said, it's more than just human wisdom, it's not just Solomon, it's divine through that.
14:26
SPEAKER_11: But before we dig into that, I wonder just quickly if you want to have another, just a chat for a minute with the people around you.
14:31
SPEAKER_11: Have you ever tried to read Proverbs?
14:34
SPEAKER_11: You know, in your Bible, have you ever tried to just get through it?
14:39
SPEAKER_11: How did it go?
14:40
SPEAKER_11: Maybe just another couple of minutes.
14:43
SPEAKER_11: What?
14:43
SPEAKER_11: Have you ever opened the Bible and just read anything of Proverbs?
14:46
SPEAKER_11: Or have you just, you know, seen a couple, seen a verse here and there, had a memory verse?
14:51
SPEAKER_11: What's your experience reading Proverbs?
14:53
SPEAKER_11: And how was it?
14:54
SPEAKER_11: Just let's start over on this side this time.
14:59
SPEAKER_11: Anyone in this kind of third of the room?
15:02
SPEAKER_11: Any any perspectives on reading Proverbs?
15:05
SPEAKER_11: How did it go?
15:06
SPEAKER_12: So I had some advice that I recklessly stole from the ticket.
15:10
SPEAKER_12: Go on.
15:11
SPEAKER_12: Um basically I took the day of the month, and there is the 19th, so then I'd read the 19th chapter of Proverbs because there's 31 Proverbs, and then you're always reading a different one each day.
15:26
SPEAKER_11: So the 31 chapter is 31 different days.
15:28
SPEAKER_12: Exactly.
15:29
SPEAKER_12: So it's kind of like just building up that habit and just a pattern of just reading one chapter every month every day.
15:36
SPEAKER_11: That's cool.
15:37
SPEAKER_11: And it says something maybe about does there seem to be a structure in proverbs that is a bit less linear?
15:42
SPEAKER_11: Potentially, you can start on the 19th and read jump to the 19th.
15:44
SPEAKER_11: Maybe there's something there we can we can investigate anywhere else from this from this section.
15:50
SPEAKER_05: We were saying similar to like you wouldn't read it cover to cover, or like like a song, you might read a whole chapter, but in proverbs you mean you have to pick three verses, and like it it's it's like self-sectional than that.
16:01
SPEAKER_11: You get something out of it because they're just a sentence, it's not the U.
16:05
SPEAKER_11: But how does that how does that go without sort of picking a bit, reading a sentence?
16:09
SPEAKER_11: Do you feel that you get much out of that, or is it do you have to read it over and over again?
16:13
SPEAKER_12: Do you think I feel like um it makes it quite um digestible?
16:18
SPEAKER_12: And I think it's easier to meditate on it when it's like you're just picking out that term.
16:23
SPEAKER_12: So like when like like when you look into it, you can capture like a first five verses, meditate it on it, and like can sort of think about it, and then you can go to the next one and it kind of builds that repetition and that's it.
16:38
SPEAKER_11: Yeah, I think you raise a really good point as well about meditating on it, like we said, proverbs, particularly these ones, that there's a surface level, but you you sick it sit on it, you soak in it for a bit, you you can acquire maybe some deeper insight.
16:50
SPEAKER_11: That's really interesting.
16:51
SPEAKER_11: What are you guys in the middle?
16:52
SPEAKER_11: Any any thoughts?
16:53
SPEAKER_11: House proverbs for you guys.
16:55
SPEAKER_02: It's like it's reading a textbook, it's all good to read from cover to cover on life.
17:00
SPEAKER_02: Uh especially when most of my textbooks had sections are just proverbs you have to memorize for exams.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
17:08
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it was like that.
17:09
SPEAKER_02: But from time to time, you just pick it out randomly.
17:13
SPEAKER_02: Like I think it's Proverbs 29, 23, pride brings out the person's love for the Lord Spirit, but the Lord Spirit gained honor, so like a few bangers there.
17:24
SPEAKER_02: But the only issue is it's like if you read it from cover to cover, it's like I do like the suggestion there.
17:32
SPEAKER_11: It feels like just reading a list of how-tos for life, maybe, and you can't take every single one in, you maybe want to pick one.
17:39
SPEAKER_11: Yeah, they're not very connected because that's really helpful.
17:44
SPEAKER_11: Thanks, Vaniki.
17:45
SPEAKER_11: Anyone else in this middle section, any thoughts?
17:48
SPEAKER_01: Seems to me it's like a lot of random thoughts all thrown together with a lot of structure.
17:53
SPEAKER_11: Yeah, maybe not seeing a through line connects them all together, even if you know there might be some repeated themes, but is there a narrative arc maybe?
18:01
SPEAKER_11: I don't know, it seems can seem tricky to find.
18:04
SPEAKER_11: Yeah.
18:04
SPEAKER_11: These guys, yeah, go ahead.
18:06
SPEAKER_06: Um you're saying that sometimes if there's like a keyword or subject or something that we're studying, that it can be useful as a sort of like a reference point that you can either Google or accordance, just look for a keyword, and okay, what's probably got to say about this topic?
18:25
SPEAKER_11: Interesting.
18:26
SPEAKER_11: Yeah, like uh almost like a yeah, a reference word like a textbook, uh okay, I'm I'm dealing with someone who's challenging in my personal context.
18:36
SPEAKER_11: What how should I do that?
18:37
SPEAKER_11: Yeah, that's great.
18:38
SPEAKER_11: Any last thoughts over here?
18:45
SPEAKER_09: I mean, I as a child it was my favourite book because you could just you didn't need comprehension of what went around it.
18:54
SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
18:54
SPEAKER_09: You could just pick it up and yes, I used to read it all the time.
18:58
SPEAKER_09: It's the only book I really did read all the time.
19:01
SPEAKER_09: Because it was a a very um applicable to everyday life.
19:06
SPEAKER_11: You you can actually get it.
19:07
SPEAKER_11: Yeah, there's a really, really surface-level meaning that you can just as a child grasp.
19:13
SPEAKER_11: That's really interesting.
19:14
SPEAKER_11: Yeah, lots of really interesting thoughts there.
19:16
SPEAKER_11: Um I it's really interesting, actually, that all of you have talked about the the proverbs themselves, but obviously we we read chapter one there.
19:25
SPEAKER_11: Um that's not pithy phrases about you know how to live life and you know, don't answer a fool according to his folly.
19:34
SPEAKER_11: That was a bit of a poem about what the book's about.
19:38
SPEAKER_11: And it's interesting, yeah.
19:40
SPEAKER_11: I think as we look at Proverbs, how do how should we read it?
19:42
SPEAKER_11: The structure of it actually gives us a bit of an insight into how we should approach it.
19:46
SPEAKER_11: If you look at Proverbs, you mentioned that there are 31 chapters, a third of it is not Proverbs.
19:52
SPEAKER_11: If that's helpful for sort of perspective.
19:55
SPEAKER_11: You know, 33% is introduction, basically.
19:58
SPEAKER_11: Chapters 1 to 9, none of it's a proverb, it's it's a speech.
20:04
SPEAKER_11: Well, it's it's 10 speeches, actually.
20:06
SPEAKER_11: Um, a father to a son, 10 speeches about wisdom and why you should listen.
20:11
SPEAKER_11: And it's really important.
20:12
SPEAKER_11: Listen to my wisdom, listen to your mother's wisdom.
20:15
SPEAKER_11: It's a parent sitting a kid down and going, we know stuff that you don't, okay?
20:19
SPEAKER_11: Just just listen.
20:21
SPEAKER_11: And we can imagine that.
20:22
SPEAKER_11: That's a very human, a very real image that we can understand.
20:26
SPEAKER_11: But as we talked about, you know, proverbs are a really great way of communicating knowledge in a condensed way that is easily intelligible to even a child.
20:34
SPEAKER_11: Um, and that that's the very human side of it.
20:37
SPEAKER_11: But then we also have the divine side as well.
20:40
SPEAKER_11: That's what we talked about before.
20:41
SPEAKER_11: This is not just a set of observations about the world, this is something a little bit more.
20:46
SPEAKER_11: Um, and this the introduction, this first sort of nine chapters, really showcases the duality of the human and the divine in this book.
20:54
SPEAKER_11: It's wisdom in the tradition of Solomon, verse one, we see that.
20:57
SPEAKER_11: He's a human, it's written by him and shaped by others.
21:00
SPEAKER_11: It's a compilation, obviously, later on.
21:02
SPEAKER_11: It's not laid out as an oracle from God, and God spoke to people through Solomon saying, etc.
21:09
SPEAKER_11: Verse 1, uh chapter 1, verse 8 to 9, we saw that.
21:12
SPEAKER_11: It's it's an exhortation of the older generation to the younger generation.
21:16
SPEAKER_11: Please listen.
21:17
SPEAKER_11: But it's not just human thinking.
21:19
SPEAKER_11: The really key part in this first section is uh a series of poems, basically, uh speeches to an extent from this character Lady Wisdom.
21:29
SPEAKER_11: There are four of them.
21:31
SPEAKER_11: The first one is actually in that chapter one we just read.
21:34
SPEAKER_11: Chapter eight is the key one, probably.
21:36
SPEAKER_11: Um, Tim's gonna dig into that a little bit more later on.
21:39
SPEAKER_11: But essentially, this is wisdom with a capital W personified.
21:45
SPEAKER_11: It's it's a a woman who is representative of of wisdom as a concept, wisdom as a as a as a thing, as a as a being, divine wisdom, God's wisdom.
21:58
SPEAKER_11: And what she says.
22:00
SPEAKER_11: Is interwoven with the speeches that the father makes.
22:02
SPEAKER_11: The father will make a speech here in chapter one.
22:05
SPEAKER_11: He'll make his speech as said, you know, such as the end of all who go after all got on gain, it takes away all the lives of who gets it.
22:11
SPEAKER_11: And then we have a little bit of narrative.
22:13
SPEAKER_11: Wisdom calls a lad in the street.
22:15
SPEAKER_11: She raises her voice in the public squares.
22:18
SPEAKER_11: She cries out in the gateways of the city, she makes her speech.
22:21
SPEAKER_11: And then we get this speech from wisdom as a person, a woman.
22:26
SPEAKER_11: That's quite interesting.
22:27
SPEAKER_11: You know, again, this is in the ancient world.
22:30
SPEAKER_11: Women do not have a voice.
22:31
SPEAKER_11: Women do not have a place in sort of learned society.
22:35
SPEAKER_11: They're not educated in the same way.
22:36
SPEAKER_11: But wisdom here is a woman.
22:38
SPEAKER_11: And she said, How long were you simple ones, love your simple ways?
22:41
SPEAKER_11: She goes on and on and on.
22:42
SPEAKER_11: And says, You need me, you need me, you need my wisdom.
22:47
SPEAKER_11: And I'm reaching out to you.
22:49
SPEAKER_11: Wisdom is right there, wanting to be known, wanting to be interacted with.
22:54
SPEAKER_11: And we see in chapter 8, she claims that she is the foundational principle that undergirds the whole universe.
23:02
SPEAKER_11: In chapter 8, verse 22 to 31, if you're taking notes, there's a really key section where she basically says, When God made the universe, he used me to do it.
23:12
SPEAKER_11: I don't know if you've ever read the book, The Shack.
23:15
SPEAKER_11: There's a character in there, wisdom.
23:18
SPEAKER_11: That's a bit like what's going on here.
23:20
SPEAKER_11: Is this not another member of the Trinity or anything?
23:23
SPEAKER_11: This is not, it's just it's an image used to talk about how God has made the world and it makes sense.
23:30
SPEAKER_11: God's not just throwing stuff up in the air and it's landed where it's landed.
23:34
SPEAKER_11: The universe has rules that govern them, that govern it, and this character, wisdom, is that personified.
23:42
SPEAKER_11: So I was trying to think of an image to sort of to portray this because this is the way that wisdom and the father-son speeches are interwoven suggests that essentially this is a human piece of wisdom.
23:57
SPEAKER_11: This is a father speaking to a son, but there is something deeper there.
24:00
SPEAKER_11: This human intergenerational wisdom is accessing something deeper, something more foundational, which elevates it a bit more.
24:08
SPEAKER_11: So it's saying that the wisdom is from the person, but it is accessing something even greater.
24:13
SPEAKER_11: A bit like physics.
24:15
SPEAKER_11: You know, those are foundational rules, principles that we all know govern the universe.
24:20
SPEAKER_11: Um, and you know, in school, I could learn about using a lever to lift a heavy object.
24:25
SPEAKER_11: And you know, my teacher who is who's wiser than me, has more experience, has done this before, tells me how to do it.
24:30
SPEAKER_11: And then I go away and apply that to my life and I lift something heavier than I could do on my own with a lever.
24:35
SPEAKER_11: But is that me accessing my teacher's wisdom, or is that me accessing something a bit deeper than that?
24:42
SPEAKER_11: A foundational universe principle that just levers work because the universe works that way.
24:48
SPEAKER_11: My teacher has accessed that, and they they've had the experience and the knowledge, and they're passing it on to me, but they're accessing something a little bit more fundamental about the universe.
24:57
SPEAKER_11: And that's a bit like what's going on here, and that's a bit like what the interplay of this divine and human wisdom is is about.
25:05
SPEAKER_11: And that is the filter through which we need to read the book.
25:08
SPEAKER_11: It's not just a bit of pithy sayings about, you know, don't be lazy because you won't prosper in life.
25:15
SPEAKER_11: It's telling us that the universe has been set up in a way that makes sense, that works, and that we can access and we can benefit.
25:24
SPEAKER_11: It's it's an invitation.
25:26
SPEAKER_11: Wisdom, you know, says I cry aloud on the streets, who's who's gonna come to me?
25:31
SPEAKER_11: It's an invitation from God to listen to the people who are more experienced than us, our our parents, uh the older generation, and through them to access divine wisdom.
25:42
SPEAKER_11: The way that I heard it described once is it's an invitation to to live your life along the grain of the universe.
25:49
SPEAKER_11: You know, you can get by, but it's much easier living in line with how the world is meant to be, how creation is made.
25:57
SPEAKER_11: And of course it makes sense.
25:59
SPEAKER_11: You know, we see in these proverbs, you know, you can avoid the the relational strife that comes from having an affair, you can avoid the heartbreak that comes from damaged friendships, you can avoid the the mental breakdown of not working hard enough and not having any money and being on the street, you know, that all makes sense to us instinctively, but it's because the universe is set up in a way that that makes sense, that works.
26:23
SPEAKER_11: So, this is the structure of the book.
26:25
SPEAKER_11: Now we have our, yeah, just quickly, what's going on?
26:28
SPEAKER_02: Um sorry to bring you understanding.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: No, it's good, man.
26:31
SPEAKER_02: But do you think that's this is the same wisdom that randomly appears in job?
26:35
SPEAKER_02: Like lady wisdom, damn with the job thing, like in between the arguments, like I'm gonna have to.
26:40
SPEAKER_11: Oh, you mean the um the hymn to wisdom?
26:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:44
SPEAKER_11: I'm not certain about that.
26:46
SPEAKER_11: I'm not a job expert.
26:47
SPEAKER_11: I would think probably not, but I'd be interested to discuss it with you afterwards.
26:52
SPEAKER_11: And I haven't thought about that in any depth.
26:54
SPEAKER_11: So that's just an interesting response.
26:56
SPEAKER_11: No, that's fine.
26:57
SPEAKER_11: We we I mean, so Lady Wisdom in in Proverbs at the start is contrasted with Lady Folly.
27:02
SPEAKER_11: There's uh another lady who is sort of the opposite of wisdom, is representative of all bad, unwise choices, and they're kind of comparing and contrasting one another, so there's a duality there, and I think in Job the there's not like a personification, it's just like a hymn to making good decisions and wise choices in general rather than a personified wisdom, if that makes sense.
27:23
SPEAKER_11: So I think there's something a little bit more here, but it's definitely a good connection to make, and one thing we'll talk about briefly at the end is we need to read these books in light of one another to get the full picture.
27:34
SPEAKER_11: So it's great to make connections like that as we're going through.
27:38
SPEAKER_11: Um we have our lens, wisdom, divine wisdom, and that's how we're supposed to read the Proverbs in general.
27:46
SPEAKER_11: We have a structure here, as you see, you know, a third at the start is wisdom, it's an invitation, access it, it's divine, it's human.
27:54
SPEAKER_11: And then we have, you know, 20, 20 chapters of Proverbs, those those pithy sayings, you know, maybe they can be read a little bit more in out of order.
28:01
SPEAKER_11: It's a more of a reference term rather than a narrative structure.
28:05
SPEAKER_11: But then at the end we have these two chapters as well, which are a bit different.
28:08
SPEAKER_11: The sayings of Agar and the saying of Lemuel, well, Lemuel's mom, actually.
28:12
SPEAKER_11: And they're a bit different again.
28:14
SPEAKER_11: I'll quickly touch on those because they are a little different and they do, they you they warrant a little bit of um further further examination.
28:22
SPEAKER_11: So Agur is, he's essentially presented as the ideal reader of Proverbs.
28:27
SPEAKER_11: Excuse me.
28:28
SPEAKER_11: He basically starts his little chapter by saying, I don't have any wisdom, I don't know anything at all, I'm a bit of an idiot.
28:34
SPEAKER_11: And then he says, actually, wait a minute, in the scriptures, there's loads of wisdom.
28:39
SPEAKER_11: This is awesome.
28:40
SPEAKER_11: And then he just has a whole lot of reflections on how great the natural world is: ants, lizards, rock hyraxes, all that kind of stuff.
28:47
SPEAKER_11: He just goes on about how amazing it is, and I don't really understand it, but it's great.
28:51
SPEAKER_11: The world works.
28:52
SPEAKER_11: And he's basically presented as the ideal reader.
28:55
SPEAKER_11: He doesn't think he has wisdom, he examines the scriptures and realizes, oh my gosh, the world works.
28:59
SPEAKER_11: Isn't this exciting?
29:00
SPEAKER_11: I still don't really get it, but wow, it's so cool.
29:04
SPEAKER_11: And he's kind of presented as a good way to read this.
29:07
SPEAKER_11: And then chapter 31, which obviously bookends uh the book with chapters one to nine, we have this guy, King Lemuel, and the things that his mum taught him.
29:16
SPEAKER_11: So we're back with a parent and a child passing wisdom between one another.
29:20
SPEAKER_11: His mum gives her son some guidance, and then we have verse 10 to 31, which is a little a kind of a poem, which is entitled The Wife of Noble Character, which is an interesting way to end, but it's actually an acrostic.
29:34
SPEAKER_11: Each verse is, uh starts with a different letter of the Hebrew alphabet, goes through, and it's basically applying Proverbs.
29:42
SPEAKER_11: It's an example of a woman who is doing all the stuff that Proverbs said she should do.
29:47
SPEAKER_11: She does this, she does this, she does this, it benefits her, it benefits her family, she makes wise decisions.
29:52
SPEAKER_11: It's like an applied example.
29:54
SPEAKER_11: This woman, you know, this in a poetic sense, is living out Proverbs.
29:59
SPEAKER_11: She takes the wisdom, she applies it to her life, and it bookends, you know, the the uh the Proverbs book as a whole.
30:06
SPEAKER_11: We start with a father passing wisdom to a son, we end with a mother passing wisdom to a son, and a worked example.
30:12
SPEAKER_11: That's the structure of Proverbs as a whole.
30:14
SPEAKER_11: Tim's gonna dig in a bit more to some examples of like specific proverbs and how we can examine them, but um, just for now, that's kind of the book as a whole.
30:24
SPEAKER_11: So, how should we use Proverbs?
30:26
SPEAKER_11: I think we've actually touched on it a little bit already.
30:30
SPEAKER_11: It's it's not necessarily to be read cover to cover and just taken and absorbed.
30:36
SPEAKER_11: It is meant to be a bit more of a reference work.
30:38
SPEAKER_11: We need to meditate on it.
30:39
SPEAKER_11: We need to read through and say, oh, that applies to my life.
30:42
SPEAKER_11: We need to think, oh, I'm going through some money troubles or whatever it might be.
30:45
SPEAKER_11: What wisdom is there here?
30:47
SPEAKER_11: But we're not just reading it as a this is something that someone who's older than me, wiser than me, has said.
30:53
SPEAKER_11: This is something that is helping me to access the divine undergirding wisdom that has built the universe.
31:00
SPEAKER_11: These are principles which make sense, which work, you know, and we can read it and go, oh yeah, that of course, that makes sense.
31:07
SPEAKER_11: And they're simple on the surface, but there is depth there if we sit with them.
31:11
SPEAKER_11: But as I'm sure you you know you've been thinking this whole time, what about when they don't make sense?
31:16
SPEAKER_11: What about when they're not true?
31:18
SPEAKER_11: Or they contradict one another?
31:20
SPEAKER_11: Well, I think that that comes back a little bit to what a proverb is.
31:23
SPEAKER_11: A proverb is not a promise.
31:25
SPEAKER_11: And that's a really important distinction to make.
31:28
SPEAKER_11: And that comes back to the sort of the human-level wisdom as well, is that these are you know they're they're accurate and they're verifiable, and we can, by personal experience, say, well, yeah, generally if you're lazy, you don't succeed.
31:44
SPEAKER_11: But then we could all think of someone who is lazy and who has succeeded, or uh, you know, a fool who never prospers, but what about this person I know who has, or this good person who's had bad stuff happen to them?
31:55
SPEAKER_11: We can all think of those instant contradictions to a proverb, and that's because they're focused on probabilities.
32:02
SPEAKER_11: You know, the way that the universe works, we we all know that if you throw something up in the air, then it'll come down again eventually.
32:09
SPEAKER_11: But then, you know, if you're in space, it doesn't, it just stays there.
32:13
SPEAKER_11: There are contradictions based on context and based on different situations, and so that's why we need to recognize that life is too complex for a formula for a simple, pithy saying to sum up everything.
32:26
SPEAKER_11: There are no guarantees, lots of things can and do go wrong.
32:28
SPEAKER_11: We know why that is.
32:29
SPEAKER_11: We know that the universe isn't fully working the way that it should because of the fall.
32:34
SPEAKER_11: And actually, the Bible does recognize that.
32:37
SPEAKER_11: We've mentioned Job already.
32:38
SPEAKER_11: We've mentioned the other wisdom books, they don't give easy answers.
32:44
SPEAKER_11: I I don't know how many of you were here for um our session on Job, the first session we did, but I thought it was really clear that Job doesn't give any answers.
32:52
SPEAKER_11: There's no easy solution to Job's issues, to Job's suffering.
32:57
SPEAKER_11: He just is suffering, and it's rubbish, and things break down and it doesn't make sense.
33:01
SPEAKER_11: And that's also in the Bible, as well as this whole collection of sayings that say life is ordered and works exactly this way all the time.
33:08
SPEAKER_11: And that's why we need to read all these books together.
33:11
SPEAKER_11: We need to always read the Bible in light of the Bible.
33:14
SPEAKER_11: We need to appreciate that this is a different type of wisdom.
33:19
SPEAKER_11: This is the general rule, but it's also but there are exceptions as well.
33:24
SPEAKER_11: Um we need to read them alongside one another.
33:27
SPEAKER_11: It also explains why the, you know, maybe there are there appear to be contradictions at surface level in some of these proverbs.
33:32
SPEAKER_11: There appear to be, well, this one says this, but this one says this, and they're next to each other.
33:36
SPEAKER_11: How does that work?
33:37
SPEAKER_11: Again, we'll we'll dig into some of that in a little bit.
33:40
SPEAKER_11: But um for now, I think I'm just gonna leave it there because um we've talked a lot about the kind of generalities, we've talked a lot about the you know the structure, um, but I think it's it's also good to look at how we can read those specific proverb examples.
33:54
SPEAKER_11: Uh, Tim's gonna come up now and speak to us about that.
33:57
SPEAKER_11: Does anyone have any questions off the back of that that they would like to raise now, or um are we happy to just select him crack on that?
34:04
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, um, referring back to Phil, but when he's talking about Joe, it wasn't meant to be easily digested.
34:11
SPEAKER_04: I think he used the expression that you had to chew it over or something and it was it to struggle with almost to get a deeper understanding.
34:18
SPEAKER_04: Would you think that applies to this also?
34:21
SPEAKER_11: I think it's a bit of both, isn't it?
34:22
SPEAKER_11: Like Job is that there is no easy solution in Job.
34:27
SPEAKER_11: It is a conundrum, it is a mystery, it's something to be sat with and wrestled with, and why is this happening and what's going on there?
34:34
SPEAKER_11: And that's Job.
34:35
SPEAKER_11: And I think proverbs is a different type of wisdom.
34:39
SPEAKER_11: We've, you know, as we've discussed, there is very applicable and very accessible wisdom that you can get from reading a proverb that says a fool never prospers, or something like that.
34:50
SPEAKER_11: You can get value and wisdom from that instantly.
34:53
SPEAKER_11: But as we've said, if you sit with and you meditate on and you read the collection as a whole, there is deeper meaning there.
35:00
SPEAKER_11: And you can draw out more significant truth, I think, as well, that only comes with time and with wrestling, and with saying, but this doesn't make sense to my situation, and that doesn't you know correlate with what I can see in my life.
35:14
SPEAKER_11: Why is that?
35:15
SPEAKER_11: And that then draws you into the wider wisdom literature like a Job, like an Ecclesiastes or something, where you can find different ways of looking at that.
35:23
SPEAKER_11: And I think you read it as a corpus, as a as a body, as a whole, and that's how we do it, but it doesn't mean that actually you know a child can't read a proverb and go, yeah, that makes sense, but that's how the world works.
35:34
SPEAKER_11: And I think that's part of that intergenerational kind of vibe we've got going, is that it's a compressed experience being transmitted from one person to another, and there's a really strong, you know, divine undergirding to it that means we can we can trust it.
35:52
SPEAKER_11: Does that answer your question?
35:54
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
35:54
SPEAKER_11: Anything else, or are we we happy for Tim to jump in?
36:00
SPEAKER_11: Fantastic, all right Tim, over to you.
36:02
SPEAKER_04: Right, thanks much.
36:04
SPEAKER_10: Um said that the beginning this these poems about this is wisdom, then the major chunk is those little kind of proverbs and with the conclusion.
36:17
SPEAKER_10: Um so um uh yeah, how how do proverbs how do the proverbs bit of proverbs work?
36:24
SPEAKER_10: In some ways, there's a little kind of rhyme to it and there's a little rhythm to it, and again, it's how to make it memorable.
36:31
SPEAKER_10: And and in English, uh they're supposed to be memorable, aren't they?
36:35
SPEAKER_10: Um uh there was a little um primary school, they had little kind of tests to see how how memorable proverbs were.
36:43
SPEAKER_10: They asked the children to complete uh complete um some uh proverbs.
36:47
SPEAKER_10: Um and this was some of their answers.
36:49
SPEAKER_10: Kind of uh don't bite the hand that looks dirty.
36:53
SPEAKER_10: Or uh it's always darkest before the clocks go back.
36:59
SPEAKER_10: Or a penny sade is not much.
37:04
SPEAKER_10: Um should be seen and not grounded.
37:10
SPEAKER_10: Um don't put off till tomorrow what you could put on to go to bed.
37:18
SPEAKER_10: Um what else do they have?
37:20
SPEAKER_10: Um when the blind lead the blind, get out of the way.
37:27
SPEAKER_10: Laugh and the whole world laughs with you, cry and you have to plug your nose up.
37:33
SPEAKER_10: Um a man who lives in a glass house should change clothes in the basement.
37:40
SPEAKER_10: Um that's that that's that's supposed to be kind of memorable.
37:43
SPEAKER_10: Uh obviously for some people that didn't quite work.
37:46
SPEAKER_10: Um but how do the how do the um how does this work in Hebrew?
37:50
SPEAKER_10: So obviously the proverbs was written in Hebrew, and whereas we have uh proverbs in our own language, and they have the way the words are going, the way the phrase are, the way that words sound set.
37:59
SPEAKER_10: Actually, try and make it memorable.
38:01
SPEAKER_10: Um, well, uh in some ways the proverbs kind of work that way.
38:06
SPEAKER_10: Um just before we look at that, uh again, the the key verse to understand the whole book of Proverbs is this the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
38:14
SPEAKER_10: Um there's something about fearing God that uh helps you navigate the book.
38:20
SPEAKER_10: If you just want to look for at the book for some nice proverbs to try and lead a moral life, actually, I don't think Proverbs will do what it should do, because actually it's the fear of the Lord that's the beginning of knowledge.
38:29
SPEAKER_10: Or as it says in Proverbs 9 verse 10, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
38:37
SPEAKER_10: Um and I I think when we come to look at the Proverbs bit of Proverbs, um, unless you've got a reverence and fear for God and you want a life that's lived in his will, his way, unless you've made a choice that Jesus is going to be Lord of your life, and when Jesus is Lord, it means that you kind of uh you submit your will and and how you feel that you can navigate life the best that you possibly can, and say, actually, now there's a a different authority.
39:05
SPEAKER_10: Actually, I I I fear, I respect, uh there's an awe for God and the God who made this world, the God who made me, the God who made society, actually the God who knows the way that humanity functions the best kind of way.
39:17
SPEAKER_10: Now, if you have the fear of the Lord in your life, and you think I'm gonna put him first rather than myself first, his dreams, his longings, his morals, out of my dreams, my longings, my morals, actually, the fear of the Lord, actually that's the beginning to find a life that's a wise kind of life.
39:32
SPEAKER_10: Does that make sense?
39:33
SPEAKER_10: And so you could just look at the proverbs, like those other proverbs, kind of um uh bird in the hand is worth two bush.
39:40
SPEAKER_10: And you can think, okay, well, they're just nice sayings.
39:43
SPEAKER_10: But actually, if you think it starts with the fear of the Lord, and I'm bringing my life under his control and his lordship, I'm bringing my life under his wisdom.
39:50
SPEAKER_10: Actually, that's where you truly find a wise kind of life.
39:53
SPEAKER_10: Does that make sense?
39:54
SPEAKER_10: So that in some ways that's the kind of the key, the key text to understand, unlock the whole book.
39:59
SPEAKER_10: So it's not just a cerebral exercise of lovely, quaint sayings, but it's actually it's it's here's a book that's going to help you to navigate life well and bring your life under the lordship and control uh of God.
40:13
SPEAKER_10: Um so uh how does it work?
40:16
SPEAKER_10: Well, as you look through the themes of the of the of the Proverbs, actually it contrasts the fool, the wise and the fool.
40:24
SPEAKER_10: So there's some so the wise person like this, the fool is like this.
40:28
SPEAKER_10: Be the wise person.
40:30
SPEAKER_10: Or the righteous is like this, and the wicked is like this.
40:33
SPEAKER_10: The righteous does this thing, the wicked is the thing.
40:35
SPEAKER_10: Actually, be a righteous person.
40:37
SPEAKER_10: It's slightly more complex because there's there's quite a few problems contrast rich and the poor.
40:42
SPEAKER_10: And and in some ways, you're never quite sure whether you should be poor or rich.
40:47
SPEAKER_10: Should you be rich or poor?
40:49
SPEAKER_10: Actually, it's not as straightforward as um uh as uh as the other two.
40:56
SPEAKER_10: Uh probably, um I think it's more like this.
40:59
SPEAKER_10: Actually, if you are rich, kind of actually beware.
41:03
SPEAKER_10: Uh again, wisdom of the time was if you prosper and if you're rich, the gods are on your side.
41:10
SPEAKER_10: Actually, you're living uh the right kind of life.
41:13
SPEAKER_10: If you're poor, there's bad karma, you've there's something you've obviously done something that's wrong, and the gods are not on your side.
41:20
SPEAKER_10: So you're not living a good kind of life if you're poor.
41:23
SPEAKER_10: The reality is that sometimes circumstances happen that are beyond our control.
41:27
SPEAKER_10: Sometimes, because of sin in our world, rich people manipulate people so they become poor.
41:32
SPEAKER_10: And and they're people who fumble without uh options and without choices in life.
41:37
SPEAKER_10: Uh and some ways at times it's the rich that are the baddies.
41:41
SPEAKER_10: Actually, rich are the wicked and the fools rather than the uh righteous and the wise.
41:47
SPEAKER_10: And so, as you look at the proverbs, when you come to the wise and the fool, you know which one you want to be.
41:52
SPEAKER_10: When it comes to the righteous and the wicked, you know which one to be.
41:55
SPEAKER_10: Actually, when it comes to the rich and the poor, have a look a bit closer.
41:59
SPEAKER_10: Because it may be that if you have got riches, there's a challenge to you.
42:05
SPEAKER_10: And if you are poor, actually there's maybe some benefits to that as well.
42:09
SPEAKER_10: So those are kind of um three little kind of contrasts.
42:13
SPEAKER_10: As you read through the Proverbs, you'll probably notice uh that those are contrasted.
42:17
SPEAKER_10: Again, to live a good life under God's lordship, you want to live wisely, you want to live righteously, and you want to live handling money and possessions well, whether you've got a lot or whether you've not got a lot.
42:32
SPEAKER_10: Actually, for both of them, you need a wisdom to handle both riches and poverty.
42:36
SPEAKER_10: Does that make sense?
42:37
SPEAKER_10: So look at those ones a bit more kind of closely.
42:40
SPEAKER_10: Like we said, if you're here last week when we talked about Hebrew poetry, so in uh in English proverbs, again, there's a rhythm to it, there's there's words that sound similar, uh, kind of maybe there's things that rhyme.
42:53
SPEAKER_10: Uh, Hebrew poetry is obviously it's very different from English poetry.
42:58
SPEAKER_10: Um, and the way that it works is that that they have two lines, like we were saying yesterday with the psalm, last week with the psalms, there's two lines that kind of uh well that they're either uh synonymous, so uh synonymous parallelism it's called, actually, which means that the first line and the second line are kind of uh reinforce one another.
43:18
SPEAKER_10: So the fear of the Lord being the wisdom, the knowledge of the holy one is understanding.
43:22
SPEAKER_10: It kind of it just states the kind of the the first truth and it's restated in the in the second line.
43:30
SPEAKER_10: Does that make sense?
43:31
SPEAKER_10: The um uh you've then got antithetic parallelism, the second line contrasts thought of the first line.
43:39
SPEAKER_10: So again, this is how the poetry works.
43:41
SPEAKER_10: You you have a statement, and the second line of the poem is kind of the opposite to that.
43:46
SPEAKER_10: So here's here's something kind of the word of the the words of the reckless appear like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.
43:54
SPEAKER_10: Again, here's one thing, and here's the opposite.
43:57
SPEAKER_10: Here's one thing, and the consequence here's the opposite when the consequences.
44:00
SPEAKER_10: Consequence.
44:00
SPEAKER_10: Actually, that's how the proverb, the the the da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da, kind of things.
44:05
SPEAKER_10: That's how it works in Hebrew.
44:07
SPEAKER_10: It has um uh the first and second.
44:09
SPEAKER_10: Um again, similarly, Proverbs 17: uh a cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones.
44:17
SPEAKER_10: Again, here's one thing, and here's the opposite thing.
44:20
SPEAKER_10: Here's here's what uh cheerful gratitude brings, it's like medicine.
44:26
SPEAKER_10: But actually, if your spirit is crushed, then actually it dries up on the inside.
44:31
SPEAKER_10: Um and the third kind of way that the poetry works is um uh synthetic parallelism.
44:37
SPEAKER_10: The second line adds extra information to the first line.
44:40
SPEAKER_10: So it doesn't just repeat the first line, there's extra information that comes.
44:44
SPEAKER_10: So uh the one who loves a pure heart and who speaks with grace will have the king's a friend.
44:51
SPEAKER_10: Okay?
44:52
SPEAKER_10: Here's one thing, but actually here's a conscript, here's something else, here's something different that's added on.
44:57
SPEAKER_10: So the second line adds extra information to the first line.
45:00
SPEAKER_10: So both with Psalms and with Proverbs, you'll find that these kind of these two liners, uh, that's how uh Hebrew poetry works.
45:08
SPEAKER_10: That's how how the Hebrew uh proverbs uh work.
45:13
SPEAKER_10: So if that's how you understand, if you understand that the general themes, rich and uh sorry, uh uh wise and fool, uh the righteous and the wicked, rich and the poor.
45:25
SPEAKER_10: How how do you go about using them or navigating them?
45:28
SPEAKER_10: And in some ways, uh when we look at the Old Testament, I I think we should interpret the Old Testament in the light of the New Testament.
45:36
SPEAKER_10: Um I've said it before at Bible School is that um the the Old Testament is um it's like a shadow, and the reality is in Jesus.
45:46
SPEAKER_10: So, so kind of it's on a bright sunny day, here's Jesus, the person kind of uh incarnate.
45:53
SPEAKER_10: And that there's a bright sunshine, the bright sunshine casts the shadow onto the floor, and so you can see the vague outline on the shadow on the floor that represents the outline of the real thing.
46:04
SPEAKER_10: And in some ways, the Old Testament scripture is like a shadow of the real thing that's Jesus.
46:09
SPEAKER_10: So, how does what we read in the Old Testament give us an inkling, give us the kind of shape, give us a point towards the reality that's in Jesus?
46:19
SPEAKER_10: And in some ways, when we look at the book of Proverbs, I think for me, one thing, well, did Jesus ever use Proverbs, the book?
46:26
SPEAKER_10: Did Proverbs inform the way that Jesus did ministry?
46:29
SPEAKER_10: Because if Proverbs inform the way that Jesus did ministry, then in some ways maybe that's the way that we, as we follow Jesus, should allow proverbs to form us in a similar kind of way.
46:40
SPEAKER_10: Does that make sense?
46:41
SPEAKER_10: Now, do you think I mean you can think of any situations where Jesus used a proverb, one of one of the proverbs in his teaching?
46:52
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, any particular parable that's any particular proverb, a particular parable?
46:58
unknown: Something about the weather.
46:59
SPEAKER_10: Sorry?
46:59
unknown: Something about the weather?
47:01
SPEAKER_10: Something about the weather?
47:04
SPEAKER_10: You can know when when the half.
47:07
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, so so that there was kind of when the sky's red, you read the signs, kind of, and uh so uh again that was a a saying of the time.
47:15
SPEAKER_10: Actually, uh it's not in the book of Proverbs.
47:18
SPEAKER_10: So that so Jesus used little sayings that were probably common sayings, a bit like a bird of handsworth through in the bush, kind of, but they weren't actually biblical proverbs.
47:27
SPEAKER_00: Did he use them when he was tempted?
47:31
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, when he was tempted, he he he used the book of Deuteronomy mostly when he was tempted.
47:35
SPEAKER_10: So that that was the book he referred to then.
47:37
SPEAKER_03: Um I'll put you out of your acronym, shall I just I'll just uh wisdom is justified by her children in the context of when the Pharisees refusing Jesus for casting out demons by the Elzebub.
47:50
SPEAKER_03: And he's saying every king by against himself cannot stand.
47:52
SPEAKER_03: So how can I cast out demons and voice by the Spirit of God on casting out demons?
47:56
SPEAKER_03: And he said wisdom is justified by children.
47:57
SPEAKER_03: Is that clear?
47:58
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
47:58
SPEAKER_10: So so wisdom is so so that is kind of the wisdom there is a reflection on the first eight chapters of of the book of Proverbs.
48:07
SPEAKER_10: He's talking about that kind of wisdom is is made known uh through the children.
48:11
SPEAKER_10: But here's a few things just for you to kind of so uh Proverbs chapter 2.
48:16
SPEAKER_10: If you look uh uh sorry, and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as uh as for hidden treasure, this is kind of looking for wisdom.
48:26
SPEAKER_10: And uh again, Jesus saying the kingdom of heaven is like hidden treasure in a field.
48:31
SPEAKER_10: Kind of that there's hidden treasure in a proverb, but if you if you're looking for wisdom, it's like hidden treasure.
48:37
SPEAKER_10: Jesus takes that little illustration of hidden treasure from uh maybe from the proverbs there.
48:42
SPEAKER_10: Um the house of the wicked, this is Proverbs 14 and verse 11, the house of the wicked will be destroyed, but the tent of the upright will flourish.
48:49
SPEAKER_10: What's that sound like?
48:51
SPEAKER_10: Why has man built his house upon the rock?
48:54
SPEAKER_10: Uh so whoever hears these words of mine puts them to practice, it's like a man who built his house on the rock.
48:58
SPEAKER_10: The upright, there, the temple flourish.
49:01
SPEAKER_10: Actually, the foolish man puts his house on the sand, it collapses.
49:04
SPEAKER_10: The house of the wicked will be destroyed.
49:06
SPEAKER_10: So again, here's a little proverb that they would have known, and Jesus takes it and puts a um, like I was saying, a little parable uh around it.
49:14
SPEAKER_10: Um whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord.
49:19
SPEAKER_10: This is Proverbs 19, verse 17, and he will reward them uh for what they have done.
49:24
SPEAKER_10: Okay, how can you lend sorry, how can you lend to God?
49:29
SPEAKER_10: Well, being kind to the poor.
49:31
SPEAKER_10: When Jesus tells the parable of the sheep and the goats, remember that story?
49:35
SPEAKER_10: And kind of, I was hungry and you fed me, I was naked and you fled me, I was in prison, you visited me.
49:39
SPEAKER_10: When do we do that?
49:39
SPEAKER_10: Do that, Lord?
49:40
SPEAKER_10: Actually, whatever you did, truly I told you, whatever you did for the least of these, my brothers and sisters, actually you did for me.
49:46
SPEAKER_10: So somehow being kind to the poor, you're lending to God, and he will reward you for what you've you've done.
49:52
SPEAKER_10: Um of the themes of Proverbs came across kind of um uh do not exalt yourself in the king's presence, this is Proverbs 25, and do not claim a place amongst the great men.
50:02
SPEAKER_10: It is better for him to say to you, come up here, than for him to humiliate you before his nobles.
50:09
SPEAKER_10: Does that sound familiar from Jesus' teaching?
50:12
SPEAKER_10: So Jesus in Matthew 13 says, When someone invites you to a wedding feast, don't take the place of honour, for a person more distinguished than you might be might have been invited.
50:20
SPEAKER_10: If so, the host will uh invite both of you, will come and say to you, give this person your seat.
50:25
SPEAKER_10: Then the humiliated, you will have to take the least important place.
50:29
SPEAKER_10: Okay, this is a teaching of Jesus, a problem of Jesus, but he's drawing on uh the wisdom of the book of Proverbs.
50:36
SPEAKER_10: Um Proverbs 27, verse 1.
50:44
SPEAKER_10: Uh don't boast about tomorrow, for you do not know what the day may bring.
50:48
SPEAKER_10: Again, therefore don't worry about this it's in ceremonies, don't worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow you'll have enough worries about worries about itself.
50:57
SPEAKER_10: Um pride, this is 2923, pride brings a person low, but the lowly in spirit gain honour.
51:07
SPEAKER_10: Uh for those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and whoever humbles themselves will be exalted.
51:11
SPEAKER_10: Again, here's some of the the wisdom of Jesus in his teaching as echoes, it's like a shadow.
51:18
SPEAKER_10: There's a that is cast on the book of Proverbs.
51:20
SPEAKER_10: Some of the when Jesus is here giving wise, godly, inspirational teaching, there's that little shadow that's cast in the book of Proverbs.
51:28
SPEAKER_10: Um what other ones are there?
51:32
SPEAKER_10: Uh yeah, this um uh song of Agar that um Dan was just saying, one of the questions is who's gone up to heaven and come down?
51:42
SPEAKER_10: Well, John says, I know who's gone up to heaven and come down.
51:45
SPEAKER_10: Uh no one has ever gone up into heaven except the one who's come from heaven, the Son of Man.
51:49
SPEAKER_10: Again, here's this question that's at the end of the book of Wisdom is left open.
51:53
SPEAKER_10: Kind of uh who is this God?
51:55
SPEAKER_10: Uh yeah, tell me his name.
51:56
SPEAKER_10: What's the name of his son?
51:58
SPEAKER_10: It says in there in chapter uh 30.
52:01
SPEAKER_10: Um, and the answer, of course, is Father God and Jesus.
52:06
SPEAKER_10: Um Proverbs 30, verse 8 keep falsehood and lies from me, give me neither poverty nor riches, but give me only my daily bread.
52:15
SPEAKER_10: What else do we hear about daily bread?
52:17
SPEAKER_10: The board's bread.
52:19
SPEAKER_10: So give us today our daily bread.
52:21
SPEAKER_10: That's the end bit of the proverb, and don't use in temptation, keep falsehood and lies from me.
52:25
SPEAKER_10: Um give me neither poverty nor riches.
52:28
SPEAKER_10: Kind of I don't want to have too much or I'll ignore you, God.
52:31
SPEAKER_10: And I don't want to have too little or I'll start stealing.
52:34
SPEAKER_10: That's what the proverb says.
52:36
SPEAKER_10: Um, and in some ways, Jesus includes, incorporates that proverb into what we call the Lord's Prayer.
52:42
SPEAKER_10: Um so there's there's quite a bit of uh, again, the shadow that's cast on the book of Proverbs, Jesus uh takes some of it in his own teaching, he uh uses it as part of the the bedrock for some of the uh the parables that he teaches.
52:59
SPEAKER_10: Does that kind of make sense?
53:00
SPEAKER_10: And and and as you look through the the any bit of the old testament, one of the questions I will always ask is where where is Jesus?
53:08
SPEAKER_10: Where's the shadow of Jesus here?
53:10
SPEAKER_10: Where's their little outline that can help me to realize the fullness that came in the person of Jesus, that is explained in the epistles and uh the rest of the old the New Testament?
53:20
SPEAKER_10: Um but there's this bit um that um Paul um Paul says in 1 Corinthians, it says we we preach Christ crucified as somebody not to the Jews and a foolishness to the Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.
53:43
SPEAKER_10: Actually, Paul says that in encountering Jesus, I found in Jesus there's a power of God at work.
53:51
SPEAKER_10: But I'm not doing that.
53:52
SPEAKER_10: Jesus is the wisdom of God.
53:55
SPEAKER_10: Now, I mean that's what does it mean for Jesus to be the wisdom of God?
54:02
SPEAKER_10: Now what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna ask Emma if she'll read chapter eight.
54:05
SPEAKER_10: Now, as we as we read chapter eight and this um female representation, if Jesus is the wisdom of God, as we listen to this chapter eight, does it ring any bells with the life of Jesus and who Jesus is?
54:24
SPEAKER_10: Is that okay?
54:26
SPEAKER_10: So this is chapter eight of Proverbs, and ask the question where might we see Jesus here?
54:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm reading from the NIV.
54:35
SPEAKER_00: Does not wisdom call out?
54:38
SPEAKER_00: Does not understand raise her voice?
54:42
SPEAKER_00: On the heights along the way where the paths meet, she takes her stand.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: Beside the gates leading into the city, at the entrances, she cries aloud.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: To you, O men, I call out.
54:58
SPEAKER_00: I raise my voice to all mankind.
55:01
SPEAKER_00: You who are simple gain prudence.
55:04
SPEAKER_00: You who are foolish, gain understanding.
55:09
SPEAKER_00: Listen, for I have worthy things to say.
55:14
SPEAKER_00: I open my lips to speak what is right.
55:17
SPEAKER_00: My mouth speaks what is true, for my lips detest wickedness.
55:24
SPEAKER_00: All the words of my mouth are just, none of them is crooked or perverse.
55:30
SPEAKER_00: To the discerning, all of them are right.
55:33
SPEAKER_00: They are faultless to those who have knowledge.
55:37
SPEAKER_00: Choose my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: For wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her.
55:54
SPEAKER_00: I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence.
55:59
SPEAKER_00: I possess knowledge and discretion.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: To fear the Lord is to hate evil.
56:05
SPEAKER_00: I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.
56:11
SPEAKER_00: Counsel and sound judgment are mine.
56:15
SPEAKER_00: I have understanding and power.
56:19
SPEAKER_00: By me kings reign, and rulers make laws that are just.
56:27
SPEAKER_00: By me, princes govern and all nobles who rule the earth.
56:34
SPEAKER_00: I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.
56:42
SPEAKER_00: With me are riches and honor, enduring wealth and prosperity.
56:48
SPEAKER_00: My fruit is better than fine gold.
56:51
SPEAKER_00: What I yield surpasses choice silver.
56:56
SPEAKER_00: I walk in the way of righteousness along the paths of justice, bestowing wealth on those who love me and making their treasuries full.
57:28
SPEAKER_00: When there were no springs abounding with water, before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth.
57:39
SPEAKER_00: Before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world, I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary, so the waters would not overstep his command.
58:08
SPEAKER_00: And when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was the craftsman at his side.
58:16
SPEAKER_00: I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.
58:27
SPEAKER_00: Now then, my sons, listen to me.
58:32
SPEAKER_00: Blessed are those who keep my ways.
58:35
SPEAKER_00: Listen to my instruction and be wise.
58:39
SPEAKER_00: Do not ignore it.
58:42
SPEAKER_00: Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway.
58:53
SPEAKER_00: For whoever finds me finds life and receives favour from the Lord.
59:00
SPEAKER_00: But whoever fails to find me harms himself.
59:15
SPEAKER_10: It's fascinating, isn't it?
59:17
SPEAKER_10: If if Paul thought wisdom was Jesus, I wonder if you replaced wisdom with Jesus in what Emma's just read.
59:27
SPEAKER_10: I wonder what that tells you about Jesus.
59:29
SPEAKER_10: So just again, in uh three or four minutes, uh, in just for people near you, from that chapter, what do you think this shadow of Jesus, what what do you think uh if you put Jesus instead of wisdom, do you think that tells you anything about Jesus?
59:44
SPEAKER_10: Or does it ring any bells uh of of the life of Jesus?
59:49
SPEAKER_10: Um I'll call back to order.
59:52
SPEAKER_10: We'll have a few little kind of um chance to feed back some things, and uh are there any bits of that you think when I read that I definitely think of Jesus.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_10: What what what bits of that do you think when you read that you think that that that sounds like Jesus?
1:00:10
SPEAKER_09: All those bits about being there at the beginning.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_10: Okay, being there at the beginning?
1:00:14
SPEAKER_09: That's how John 1 starts.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_10: In the beginning was God, God was with yeah, the words with God.
1:00:19
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_08: In verse 17 where it says, Those who seek me find me.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_10: Okay, those who seek me find me, seeking you all will find off and all will be open to you.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_10: Kind of um yeah, seeking the white seeking little wise near.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_10: What are you gonna say, David?
1:00:31
SPEAKER_02: That was exactly the same creation.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_10: Alright, yeah, yeah.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_10: Anyone else?
1:00:35
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
1:00:35
SPEAKER_02: Counsel and righteousness, uh, counsel and sound judgment are mine and he's a wonderful counsellor.
1:00:41
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, wonderful counsellor, mighty God.
1:00:44
SPEAKER_13: Also it seems to express intimacy with the Father.
1:00:47
unknown: Yeah.
1:00:50
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:00:50
SPEAKER_10: That interplay with God the Father and and and and Jesus.
1:00:55
SPEAKER_12: And heaven says for wisdom is more precious than movies, and nothing we can desire from compare.
1:01:01
SPEAKER_12: I think that's the whole like how we see Jesus.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:01:05
SPEAKER_12: Nothing we could ever desire is better than that.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
1:01:10
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
1:01:12
SPEAKER_10: Any other bits?
1:01:15
SPEAKER_10: Anyone else talk to have a thoughts?
1:01:17
SPEAKER_10: Oh yeah, that that sounds that sounds like him.
1:01:25
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_14: Even with uh 34 watching Dangley at my door 10 talk about.
1:01:36
SPEAKER_14: Yeah.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_14: Talking about I I am the gate.
1:01:39
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, I'm the door, yes, yeah.
1:01:43
SPEAKER_02: I think there's also something in reminiscence about doors and star.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yes, be all that's hanging the door, knock.
1:01:49
SPEAKER_10: Yes.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
1:01:51
SPEAKER_10: I think Whoever finds me finds life.
1:01:54
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
1:01:54
SPEAKER_10: I mean, I mean that's that's Jesus, isn't it?
1:01:57
SPEAKER_10: Whoever finds Jesus finds life.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_10: Any other things?
1:02:02
SPEAKER_00: I think there's always choice with Jesus.
1:02:04
SPEAKER_00: And in verse 33, listen to my instruction and be wise, do not ignore it.
1:02:08
SPEAKER_00: The choice is with us.
1:02:10
SPEAKER_00: We can ignore Jesus' instruction about our peril.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_00: And the choice is ours.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah.
1:02:15
SPEAKER_10: And that's the peril.
1:02:16
SPEAKER_10: Whoever finds me, uh whoever fails to find me, harms himself.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_10: Actually, that's the deal in life, isn't it?
1:02:23
SPEAKER_10: If we don't find Jesus, bad news.
1:02:32
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_10: Well, it's fascinating.
1:02:36
SPEAKER_10: I mean, I think I think there's just loads.
1:02:38
SPEAKER_10: But when Paul says that Jesus is the wisdom of God, I wonder whether you have this chapter in mind.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_10: And I I wonder if this is this kind of who is who is this wisdom that was with God at the beginning?
1:02:52
SPEAKER_10: And it's it's it's fascinating where where people will say um when they talk about God and gender, they say, oh, kind of um, why is God the Father and why was Jesus a man?
1:03:03
SPEAKER_10: And kind of it's all very male kind of uh well actually here, wisdom is is female.
1:03:09
SPEAKER_10: And actually, if Paul says these very female characteristics were pre-embodied Jesus, uh of course uh God has no gender, uh his spirit.
1:03:22
SPEAKER_10: Um actually before Jesus became a human being, he had no gender.
1:03:27
unknown: Exactly.
1:03:29
SPEAKER_10: The son didn't it kind of imply gender, it was to do with position.
1:03:34
SPEAKER_10: Um so it's fascinating that even even here that actually maybe the pre-incarnate Jesus, wisdom, they were okay to be referred to wisdom as she.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_10: I don't know what you think about that.
1:03:48
SPEAKER_10: You think, oh dear me, you're very trendy and kind of kind of of course God's male, kind of um actually genuinely he isn't male.
1:03:58
SPEAKER_10: In our world we have to try and understand God through what has been made, and so we we attribute attributes towards God that we that may be male, uh, but actually here is wisdom is female.
1:04:12
SPEAKER_10: Does that so that mean so so I think um when we have gendered uh words and ideas in the Bible, they're always to do with privilege rather than to do with uh um gender.
1:04:24
SPEAKER_10: Uh so so to be a firstborn son in the cultural is written, that was you are top dog.
1:04:30
SPEAKER_10: So the fact that we are all sons of the living God is we're all top dog, we're all God's favourite, kind of we're all we've all got the privileges that the firstborn son was gonna have.
1:04:40
SPEAKER_10: I mean so it's it's to do with privilege rather than to do with gender.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_10: Does that does that make sense?
1:04:44
SPEAKER_10: Um and in some ways, when God became fully human, because humans are either male or female, he had to be one or the other.
1:04:52
SPEAKER_10: Um and again, culturally, if he'd have come as a woman, he wouldn't have been understood.
1:04:58
SPEAKER_10: He wouldn't have been listened, he wouldn't have been given the time of day.
1:05:00
SPEAKER_10: So, in some ways, his hand was forced slightly to become a man.
1:05:05
SPEAKER_10: Uh so um again, you might think, Tim, what you're doing talk about that, but here to talk about proverbs.
1:05:12
SPEAKER_10: Um but I think it, I think, I think, I think God is is is neither.
1:05:17
SPEAKER_10: We were all made in the image of God, male and female, uh uh or all in somewhere in there in God.
1:05:23
SPEAKER_10: Does that make sense?
1:05:25
SPEAKER_10: Okay, any other any other questions or comments from chapter chapter eight um at all?
1:05:31
SPEAKER_10: But do you think that do you think that's fascinating that that it's in there?
1:05:34
SPEAKER_10: And fascinating again if you think about Jesus the person and and Jesus the shadow, that actually even uh Solomon, as he was kind of whether they were actual Solomon's proverbs or whether he was like a a proverb magnet and he just kind of gathered all this wisdom together.
1:05:50
SPEAKER_10: Uh actually, even within that, there's something about uh about Jesus and and the wisdom of the proverbs that Jesus taught had.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_10: Based on Old Testament scripture.
1:06:02
SPEAKER_10: Okay, what else is in the Proverbs?
1:06:06
SPEAKER_10: The Holy Spirit.
1:06:07
SPEAKER_10: Proverbs 1, verse 23.
1:06:09
SPEAKER_10: If you turn at my reproof, behold, I will pour out my spirit to you.
1:06:16
SPEAKER_10: I will make my words known to you.
1:06:18
SPEAKER_10: Okay, what must we do?
1:06:19
SPEAKER_10: Day of Pentecost.
1:06:20
SPEAKER_10: What must we do?
1:06:21
SPEAKER_10: Repent and believe, be baptized.
1:06:24
SPEAKER_10: What happened?
1:06:24
SPEAKER_10: No, full of the Holy Spirit.
1:06:25
SPEAKER_10: Kind of uh here it is in Proverbs.
1:06:29
SPEAKER_10: There's again, here's how it works.
1:06:31
SPEAKER_10: You repent, I'll pour my spirit upon you.
1:06:34
SPEAKER_10: You come to Jesus, kind of here's Jesus, that kind of uh to wisdom, and actually there's life.
1:06:41
SPEAKER_10: Um as you go through the the the book, um, you'll see that there's um again the what's called the fruit of the spirit, actually the fruit of the spirit, um uh those nine characteristics, again, those nine characteristics uh are scattered through the book of Proverbs.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_10: If you look at the love, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, self-control, goodness, all those ones.
1:07:05
SPEAKER_10: Actually, they they are so so um Proverbs 3, verse 3.
1:07:10
SPEAKER_10: Let love and faithfulness never leave you.
1:07:12
SPEAKER_10: Buy them around your neck, let them be, uh write them as a tablet on your heart.
1:07:15
SPEAKER_10: Okay, love, faithfulness, to the fruits of the spirit.
1:07:18
SPEAKER_10: Um uh here's uh chapter Proverbs uh 5.
1:07:22
SPEAKER_10: A gentle word turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
1:07:27
SPEAKER_10: When the fruits of the spirit is gentleness.
1:07:29
SPEAKER_10: So actually, if you find the fruits of the spirit, you're not gentleness, actually it turns away your wrath.
1:07:33
SPEAKER_10: But if you haven't got gentleness and you're harsh, actually just make things worse.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_10: Here's here um there's proverbs about um patience.
1:07:42
SPEAKER_10: Better a patient person than a warrior.
1:07:45
SPEAKER_10: One who is self-controlled, the one who takes a city.
1:07:48
SPEAKER_10: That's interesting, isn't it?
1:07:51
SPEAKER_10: Kind of in our world, people who do stuff out there are in control of stuff out there, uh uh kind of uh are the ones that will follow.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_10: But actually the problem is saying, actually, but you need to be in control in here.
1:08:02
SPEAKER_10: Actually, the person who can control their flesh life, actually somehow you've learned a trick, you've learned a skill, you've learned a power of self-control.
1:08:11
SPEAKER_10: My self-life is under control, but it's better than a warrior, it's better than someone who takes a whole city.
1:08:16
SPEAKER_10: Actually, you've you've learned a skill in life, that fruit of the spirit of my self-life under control, under not under my control, under the control of the Lordship of Jesus, under the control of the Holy Spirit.
1:08:28
SPEAKER_10: Actually, if you find that secret, you're so much better than any kind of Hercules or Sparta or whatever it is, that um any warrior that they might have thought of.
1:08:38
SPEAKER_10: Fruit of the Spirit, what else is there?
1:08:40
SPEAKER_10: Whoever is kind, kindness, whoever's kind uh to the poor, then to the Lord, he will reward them for what they have done.
1:08:48
SPEAKER_10: Um like a city whose walls are broken through, uh, is a person who lacks self-control.
1:08:54
SPEAKER_10: Again, self-control in Proverbs 25.
1:08:58
SPEAKER_10: Um, so as you look at wisdom, wisdom's there through the Spirit, um, just a few other places where the New Testament writers refer to to Proverbs, uh, refer to the book of Proverbs.
1:09:12
SPEAKER_10: So again, uh they they will quote uh Proverbs that are cultural proverbs about um uh but here's here's some of the quotes are actually from the book of Proverbs.
1:09:25
SPEAKER_10: So Proverbs chapter 3, my son, do not despise the Lord's discipline, and do not resent his rebuke, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.
1:09:36
SPEAKER_10: Does that sound familiar?
1:09:37
SPEAKER_10: That's what almost word for word what it says in Hebrews, isn't it?
1:09:40
SPEAKER_10: Hebrews says, um, Hebrews 12, moreover, he who uh uh we all uh had human fathers who disciplined us, and we respect them for it.
1:09:49
SPEAKER_10: How much more should we submit to the father of spirits and live?
1:09:52
SPEAKER_10: They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best, but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness.
1:10:00
SPEAKER_10: So he's the writer to the Hebrews, and he's drawing on a kind of Proverbs wisdom as he tries to explain again the life in Jesus and why we should live in him.
1:10:10
SPEAKER_10: Um Proverbs 10, verse uh 12.
1:10:14
SPEAKER_10: Hatred stirs up conflict, but love covers over all wrongs.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_10: Okay, it's almost Peter almost takes it word for word.
1:10:21
SPEAKER_10: 1 Peter 4.
1:10:22
SPEAKER_10: Above all, love one another because love covers over a multitude of sins.
1:10:27
SPEAKER_10: It was kind of and people would have known when Peter wrote that.
1:10:31
SPEAKER_10: Oh, you're being scriptural, Peter.
1:10:33
SPEAKER_10: It's not just that's not just a kind of oh, you're trying to be give out some moral kind of ideas to us.
1:10:39
SPEAKER_10: No, he was quoting scripture.
1:10:41
SPEAKER_10: He he he Peter, a fisherman, loved the scripture, and when he encountered Jesus, he re reorientated his understanding of scriptures from being a small Jewish boy to saying actually, this is now pointed towards Jesus.
1:10:53
SPEAKER_10: And so uh he would quote um Proverbs.
1:10:57
SPEAKER_10: Paul in Romans um uh Proverbs 10 verse uh 16 uh the wages of the righteous is life, but the earnings of the wicked is uh sin and death.
1:11:06
SPEAKER_10: Okay.
1:11:08
SPEAKER_10: And that's almost again famous Romans 6, 23, the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1:11:17
SPEAKER_10: Again, a famous kind of maybe a verse that you you know well, but did you know that it that Paul's quoting Proverbs as he kind of one of the great verses that we might look at about what Jesus has achieved for us?
1:11:30
SPEAKER_10: Um Proverbs 25, verse 21 if your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat, if he's thirsty, give him water to drink.
1:11:38
SPEAKER_10: In doing this, you'll heap burning coals in his head, and the Lord will reward you.
1:11:41
SPEAKER_10: Hebrews 25, that is.
1:11:43
SPEAKER_10: Again, Paul in Romans 12.
1:11:45
SPEAKER_10: On the contrary, if your enemy is hungry, feed him, if he's thirsty, give him something to drink.
1:11:49
SPEAKER_10: In doing this, you'll heap burning coals on his head.
1:11:51
SPEAKER_10: Okay, it's quite a quote from uh from the book of Proverbs.
1:11:56
SPEAKER_10: Um what else have we got?
1:12:00
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, is it uh so um is that is that okay?
1:12:06
SPEAKER_10: How Jesus used Proverbs, how those first followers of Jesus uh used Proverbs, again the shadow of Jesus in the Old Testament, how do we see from the book of Proverbs how we can be Christocentric in our interpretations?
1:12:20
SPEAKER_10: Um any any questions on that before we just do a few little final final comments?
1:12:26
SPEAKER_10: Any questions or any thoughts, any reflections on Jesus and Proverbs, New Testament and Proverbs that we wanted to ask?
1:12:43
SPEAKER_10: Okay, great.
1:12:45
SPEAKER_10: Um like Dan was saying earlier, um how how do we handle things that look contradictory?
1:12:54
SPEAKER_10: So this is Proverbs chapter 25.
1:12:57
SPEAKER_10: And there's two proverbs here.
1:12:58
SPEAKER_10: First proverb is don't answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.
1:13:04
SPEAKER_10: Next parab, next next proverb.
1:13:06
SPEAKER_10: Answer a fool according to his folly, or he'll be right in his own eyes.
1:13:12
SPEAKER_10: Which is it?
1:13:14
SPEAKER_10: I mean uh does it look as though it's contradicting itself?
1:13:17
SPEAKER_06: I don't know, it says in the Hebrew.
1:13:20
SPEAKER_10: Um uh I I I'm not sure what it is.
1:13:23
SPEAKER_06: Because sometimes sometimes it can be because of our simple English.
1:13:27
SPEAKER_10: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, there are there are times.
1:13:31
SPEAKER_10: Um I I I I think for me, we like binary answers.
1:13:40
SPEAKER_10: We like to know this is right, this is wrong.
1:13:42
SPEAKER_10: Actually, we'd love to come to scripture and we want to know that this is exactly how we do it.
1:13:47
SPEAKER_10: I I did a physics degree, I taught physics for a while.
1:13:51
SPEAKER_10: I I love equations, I love order, I love things this plus this equals this, and F equals M A.
1:13:57
SPEAKER_10: And I and I I like things to be clear.
1:14:00
SPEAKER_10: And sometimes I can approach scripture and I think I want scripture to be crystal clear, I want to know exactly what I should do.
1:14:08
SPEAKER_10: Um, but sometimes life isn't that straightforward.
1:14:11
SPEAKER_10: Actually, sometimes it isn't that that clear.
1:14:14
SPEAKER_10: And I think the book of Job and some of those lament psalms that we looked at last week, I think show us that actually sometimes life isn't just quite as simple as we would like it to be.
1:14:28
SPEAKER_10: And so we would love to know here's somebody and they're a fool.
1:14:33
SPEAKER_10: How do I treat a fool?
1:14:34
SPEAKER_10: Well, I know that I treat a fool, I I kind of um I'll not answer him according to it, I'll just ignore any silly comments he makes every time.
1:14:43
SPEAKER_10: Um but there's times where actually, if I love that person who's a fool, and I just let them get away with their foolish notions without any kind of challenge, actually, am I truly loving them?
1:14:58
SPEAKER_10: So it's to do with the context in which you're speaking to this person, and in some ways it comes back to that key verse.
1:15:06
SPEAKER_10: The key verse which is the fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom.
1:15:10
SPEAKER_10: Actually, if we just want wisdom, I just want to know how to answer a full.
1:15:15
SPEAKER_10: I just want the answer.
1:15:17
SPEAKER_10: Rather than God, I want you.
1:15:19
SPEAKER_10: I want you, and as I find you, I want to know how to navigate every situation.
1:15:25
SPEAKER_10: So the fear of the Lord informs the wise response.
1:15:29
SPEAKER_10: So if I'm talking to somebody uh who's quipping and joking and lacking about, and I just quipping and joking lack about at the same time, actually, am I kind of actually don't get involved in well Paul says, endless genialities and meaningless kind of all this kind of stuff that um was happening in in Ephesus.
1:15:52
SPEAKER_10: Uh don't get involved with meanless chat and not wife's tells, don't answer a fool according to his folly.
1:15:58
SPEAKER_10: And that sometimes that that's the best thing to do.
1:16:00
SPEAKER_10: But sometimes when people are just living and they're making silly decisions, making wrong choices, acting foolishly.
1:16:09
SPEAKER_10: Again, if I'm a loving person, I need to know the wisdom.
1:16:13
SPEAKER_10: Actually, in this situation, here's somebody, and they're not just larking about and and being cynical and snaring and kind of uh foolish, but actually they're just making a foolish decision.
1:16:23
SPEAKER_10: Actually, at that point, I I need to address them and the folly that they're in.
1:16:28
SPEAKER_10: Um, or else they'll think they are going the right way, they're doing things that are wise and wrong.
1:16:34
SPEAKER_10: But in some ways, how do I understand when it's this and I don't answer them, and when it's this and I do answer them?
1:16:39
SPEAKER_10: Well, it's the fear of the Lord that helps me to navigate the wisdom.
1:16:44
SPEAKER_10: So in this situation, God, what are you saying?
1:16:46
SPEAKER_10: This person is looks as though they're being a fool.
1:16:49
SPEAKER_10: Shall I answer them or shall I not answer them?
1:16:52
SPEAKER_10: God, in this situation, they're doing things that are foolish.
1:16:56
SPEAKER_10: Shall I answer them or not answer them?
1:16:57
SPEAKER_10: And God, I I I need your wisdom.
1:17:01
SPEAKER_10: So the proverb is wise in this situation, and the other proverb is wise in this situation.
1:17:08
SPEAKER_10: But I need the fear of the Lord to discern how to act appropriately.
1:17:13
SPEAKER_10: And in some ways, it goes for some of the other proverbs as well.
1:17:17
SPEAKER_10: The proverbs are there not just to be a proverb for life, but actually it's God, what are you saying to me about how I should treat my family?
1:17:27
SPEAKER_10: Actually, what are you saying to me about the way I should train my children in the way they should, ways of the Lord, and that when they grow up they won't disappoint me?
1:17:36
SPEAKER_10: Actually, how do I navigate my my tongue?
1:17:39
SPEAKER_10: That my tongue can bring healing to the bones, but actually it can also kind of bring destruction.
1:17:49
SPEAKER_10: Ah, God, I I just I need your wisdom to know how to navigate my internal impulses, to navigate my relationships.
1:17:57
SPEAKER_10: Actually, I know my impulse is to live as a righteous person and not a wicked person, to live as a wise person and not a foolish person, to live whether I'm rich and poor, knowing you, God, in all situations, being content when I have much or when I have little.
1:18:13
SPEAKER_10: Actually, that's how you find true wisdom in the book of Proverbs.
1:18:17
SPEAKER_10: Does that make sense?
1:18:19
SPEAKER_10: So don't just look for the nice little proverb.
1:18:22
SPEAKER_10: Nagging wife is like a dripping turntap.
1:18:25
SPEAKER_10: I don't know.
1:18:26
SPEAKER_10: Um there's things that you can kind of pick out, and but no, let's actually look, let's find some of the wisdom of God there.
1:18:33
SPEAKER_10: Is that okay?
1:18:34
SPEAKER_10: Um unless anyone's got any questions, we're gonna finish there.
1:18:39
SPEAKER_10: So any anyone got any questions?
1:18:42
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
1:18:44
SPEAKER_10: Yeah?
1:18:44
SPEAKER_06: Um in that Proverbs 1 and 7 where it talks about the fear of the Lord, I can imagine for some people that they might draw with that word fear.
1:18:53
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
1:18:54
SPEAKER_06: Um again with the original Hebrew, do we know is it more about reverence rather than quaking with fear?
1:19:03
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, it it it's it's it's it's awe, isn't it?
1:19:06
SPEAKER_10: So so if if you if you think what what what is fear?
1:19:10
SPEAKER_10: Fear is a reaction to a situation.
1:19:13
SPEAKER_10: So here's a situation.
1:19:15
SPEAKER_10: So um uh yesterday uh we were just about to get into bed and this spider ran across uh my wife's pillow.
1:19:24
SPEAKER_10: She screams because there was fear, because she has an idea of spiderness.
1:19:32
SPEAKER_10: And the fact that she could have gone to sleep with it under a pillow and it could have crept into her mouth.
1:19:37
SPEAKER_10: And and what fear does is it takes a little something and it makes it big.
1:19:44
SPEAKER_10: Now the fear of the Lord is taking the Lord and in our imagination making him big.
1:19:52
SPEAKER_10: So so it's it's the same kind of it's it's the same process that that irrational fear will take you this way.
1:19:58
SPEAKER_10: Actually, the fear of the Lord should take you this way.
1:20:00
SPEAKER_10: I said something about the awe and the reverence and the wonder and the space that you give to God and the way you let your imagination drift this way.
1:20:09
SPEAKER_10: Fear will get you to drift this way.
1:20:12
SPEAKER_10: It takes a thing and you imagine all the possible negative outcomes that can happen.
1:20:16
SPEAKER_10: The fear of the Lord says, here's God, his kindness is goodness, and it takes me.
1:20:23
SPEAKER_10: The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
1:20:25
SPEAKER_10: It actually takes me along this kind of path.
1:20:27
SPEAKER_10: Does that kind of make sense?
1:20:28
SPEAKER_10: So it's that kind of all so it's not kind of ah, he's gonna kill me.
1:20:32
SPEAKER_10: It's it's the how do you take something and you and you make it bigger than it should be?
1:20:37
SPEAKER_10: Does that make sense?
1:20:40
unknown: Yeah.
1:20:40
SPEAKER_13: Yeah, it's just a silly little thing, really, but um chapter 30 says there are three things that are never satisfied.
1:20:47
SPEAKER_13: No, four that are training up, and it's been drawn with others as well.
1:20:51
SPEAKER_13: There are three things that amazed me.
1:20:53
SPEAKER_13: No, four things that maybe there are three things that make the earth tremble, but no, four it cannot be brought.
1:21:00
unknown: Why does he change his mind?
1:21:02
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, I I think I think it's it's it's like poetry.
1:21:06
SPEAKER_10: Sometimes you you have you have to accentuate something, you say, it's a bit like this.
1:21:10
SPEAKER_10: Actually, no, it's a bit like this.
1:21:11
SPEAKER_10: Oh no, it's a bit like this.
1:21:12
SPEAKER_10: I know it's a bit like this, and just actually the poet, the the poetic kind of it again, it's not you for poetry, uh, and we touched on this last week, you don't take it literally, so is it literally literally four things, or is it actually the movement and the repetition repetitive nature kind of to say, oh it's the oh it's this, and oh it's this, and it's the ah, it's the it's that kind of emotion that's trying to change his wondering.
1:21:36
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah, it could have or or he's reconsidered again, then it's yeah, it's this, or then oh it's that, no, or this and almost that, and kind of, and it's just kind of how our reaction, our response to God.
1:21:46
SPEAKER_10: And again, it's it's a poetic form rather than a literal, or is it literally three or is it literally four?
1:21:51
SPEAKER_10: Actually, it's it's a poem that's trying to draw you in a direction.
1:21:54
SPEAKER_11: Just to kind of that's all it's actually Hebrew, it's like we might say it's wearing cats and dogs, but it's yeah, it's it's to the three and four, it's just like all of this.
1:22:04
SPEAKER_11: It's like they use I mean a bit like uh when God says what his name is the Lord, the Lord, compassionate, gracious, etc.
1:22:12
SPEAKER_11: maintain the love to you know everyone, but we'll manage the third and fourth generation.
1:22:18
SPEAKER_11: That's or if you're doing third and a fourth one, just say four.
1:22:21
SPEAKER_11: But like three and four, like one after the other, is like a video that they just use like to context, it just means all that.
1:22:30
SPEAKER_11: You know, it's just it doesn't make sense quite to us, but they just use that.
1:22:33
SPEAKER_11: Like we might use A that wouldn't translate directly to another language.
1:22:37
SPEAKER_06: Could you create it to more and more?
1:22:40
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:22:42
SPEAKER_11: You just say loads basically.
1:22:44
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, loads of stuff.
1:22:47
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah, great.
1:22:48
SPEAKER_10: Um folks, if you want the PowerPoint, uh uh my PowerPoint with those notes on, or if you want a link to the audio uh as well.
1:22:58
SPEAKER_10: Uh again that QR code, uh if it didn't work last time, I I think I put the uh uh one that didn't work last week.
1:23:05
SPEAKER_10: Um but that that should take you to a little login page for Bible School.
1:23:08
SPEAKER_10: Um and you should be able to log in.
1:23:10
SPEAKER_10: If you log in with remail, I'll uh on Thursday I'll drop you a little email with a link to the notes and to the audio as well.
1:23:19
SPEAKER_10: Is that okay?
1:23:20
SPEAKER_10: Um just pray for us as we finish.
1:23:23
SPEAKER_10: Um and uh