Latest / I Do, Part 2 / Getting It Right This Time

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Getting It Right This Time · I Do, Part 2

0:16
Speaker 1: I Do, Part two is a unique podcast that is
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Speaker 1: all about divorce and heartbreak and the idea that you
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Speaker 1: can find love again. I'm one of your hosts, Jenny Garth,
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Speaker 1: and I know that the path to love isn't always
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Speaker 1: an easy road to travel, a theme that has come
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Speaker 1: up on this podcast a lot has been about self
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Speaker 1: reflection and growth that goes hand in hand with divorce.
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Speaker 1: All of a sudden, you're forced to take a hard
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Speaker 1: look at things, and sometimes the best way to make
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Speaker 1: sense of it all is through therapy. Therapy, therapy. I
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Speaker 1: want to bring on today doctor Hillary Goldsher, an incredible
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Speaker 1: psychologist who does in depth work in the arena of relationships,
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Speaker 1: to have an honest conversation about all the things divorced
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Speaker 1: people should know or be asking themselves when getting back
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Speaker 1: out there in the dating scene. So with that, Hello
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Speaker 1: doctor Hillary, Hi Jenny, so nice to meet you. Thank
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Speaker 1: you for coming on our podcast. My Please, we need you.
1:26
Speaker 1: We all need you. As you already probably know, this
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Speaker 1: podcast is all about people that haven't gotten it right
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Speaker 1: in love before they're divorced. Maybe they're a single parent,
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Speaker 1: but they haven't given up on the idea of finding
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Speaker 1: their person. So I wanted to chat about all the
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Speaker 1: things or questions that divorced people that are ready to
1:51
Speaker 1: date again should be thinking about or asking themselves.
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Speaker 2: Love it sound good, I don't.
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Speaker 1: Let's go. Let's do this. How do we heal from
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Speaker 1: the pain of a divorce? Big question? I'm starting out swinging.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, just a one sentence answer. No, I'm glad you're
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Speaker 2: asking that so distinctly because it gives me a chance
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Speaker 2: to say the following, which is that in my work,
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Speaker 2: I like to conceptualize divorce as a trauma. And this
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Speaker 2: is relevant regardless of the divorce. If the divorce is
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Speaker 2: amicable and mutual, or the divorce is high conflict and
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Speaker 2: one person doesn't want it right, the shift in paradigm
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Speaker 2: and the resultant change in orientation and related stability and
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Speaker 2: sort of spirit and soul is typically pretty shocking to
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Speaker 2: both parties thereafter, particularly women, And that I guess is
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Speaker 2: gender stereotypical, but it is often true in my experience,
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Speaker 2: and so having an opportunity to think of it like
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Speaker 2: that gives women going through it an opportunity to heal
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Speaker 2: any very intentional, prolonged way. And yes, when you think about, like, well,
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Speaker 2: how do you heal, you begin by realizing that your heart, body, mind,
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Speaker 2: and soul are going through something traumatic and profound.
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Speaker 1: I love that. I love that because it gives people
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Speaker 1: the opportunity to say, Wow, this is I'm in trauma,
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Speaker 1: like you said, and I need to be kind to
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Speaker 1: myself in this process, take care of myself.
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Speaker 2: Yes, I like to call the season post divorce the
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Speaker 2: quote after marriage, because there's an entire relationship with the
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Speaker 2: season of post marriage, who you are, who you want
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Speaker 2: to be, how you feel separate, and disentangling finances and
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Speaker 2: kids stuff if they're involved. It's an entirely other relationship
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Speaker 2: that you in some cases get to co create with
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Speaker 2: your ex and in some cases have to create on
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Speaker 2: your own if there isn't an amicable relationship. So it
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Speaker 2: gives an opportunity to think about what do I need
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Speaker 2: to soothe myself? What resources do I need to mobilize
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Speaker 2: to help myself through. What are the different phases that
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Speaker 2: I'm going through, and what do I need in each
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Speaker 2: one of them to sort of help myself develop into
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Speaker 2: the person I want to be in this new season
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Speaker 2: of my life.
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Speaker 1: Oh, that's going to be exciting. We're going to get
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Speaker 1: into that but I want to talk about accountability. I
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Speaker 1: think that how do we take our own accountability for
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Speaker 1: the things that happen in the marriage and not just
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Speaker 1: point the finger, not just blame the other party.
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Speaker 2: So slowing that process down is painful but critical. There
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Speaker 2: is absolutely room to identify the pain points, the frustrations,
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Speaker 2: the hurts, the betrayals, the infidelities, whatever occurred. Talk about
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Speaker 2: them and hold them up and feel them in a
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Speaker 2: safe environment with friends, a therapist, family, et cetera. It's
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Speaker 2: not only important but mandatory necessary. It is okay for
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Speaker 2: a part of the process to be anger. That's how
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Speaker 2: we move through it. We don't we don't dismiss it,
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Speaker 2: we don't suppress it, we don't paint it with like
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Speaker 2: a pretty color. We like dance with it. We hold it.
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Speaker 2: We decide what it's done to us and what we
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Speaker 2: want it to do to us moving forward. So I
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Speaker 2: could talk a lot more about that, but I want
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Speaker 2: to really be specific about reserving a space for all
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Speaker 2: of those feelings and being really deliberate about it. It's
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Speaker 2: a critical part of healing. Having said that, it is
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Speaker 2: also really important to say what about me? What about me?
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Speaker 2: Because two things can be true. At the same time,
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Speaker 2: you could have been betrayed and let down and hurt,
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Speaker 2: mistreat disrespected. All of those things can be true and devastating,
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Speaker 2: But there's some way in which we co created, even
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Speaker 2: if the quote only way we co created is that
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Speaker 2: we allowed it to happen for too long. We didn't advocate,
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Speaker 2: we didn't say no more, we didn't say you're not listening.
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Speaker 2: I'm staying in it until you do right and so
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Speaker 2: being able to recognize what our part is in co
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Speaker 2: creating this sustained dynamic is critical for healing and not
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Speaker 2: repeating it in future relationships. So it's an interesting dichotomy
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Speaker 2: because if you were mistreated, disrespected, cheated, on et cetera,
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Speaker 2: the understandable premise might be this is on him. I
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Speaker 2: don't need to look at this. I'm just the victim.
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Speaker 2: And in many ways that's a portion of that is true.
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Speaker 2: But what I just said is critical, or the healing
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Speaker 2: is not robust and not and doesn't have long jeopardy.
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Speaker 2: We need to figure out what we co created, what
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Speaker 2: we in, what our input was to make this dynamic
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Speaker 2: occur over and over and over again.
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Speaker 1: Yes, I always say stop pointing the finger and start
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Speaker 1: pulling the thumb. Yeah, so it works for me exactly.
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Speaker 2: It's really important to allow for both that there's something
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Speaker 2: really use that word again, robust and fulfilling about both,
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Speaker 2: allowing space for both. We get to be mad and frustrated,
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Speaker 2: angry and hurt, and we get to say it to
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Speaker 2: save for others. But we have to also figure out
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Speaker 2: how do we contribute. We have to or our healing
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Speaker 2: is not going to be complete and some version of
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Speaker 2: the pattern is going to repeat again. Whether it's enough
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Speaker 2: romantic relationship, a friendship, a professional environment with your kiddos,
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Speaker 2: it will reveal itself again until we tangle with it.
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Speaker 1: How do we know when it's time to date again?
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Speaker 1: I mean, should people try dating even if they don't
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Speaker 1: feel ready.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, glad you're asking that, because this is a topic
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Speaker 2: where I feel like it's so important for people to
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Speaker 2: practice relying on their own intuition. Because there's so many
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Speaker 2: cliches about this question. Well, you should lead a certain
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Speaker 2: amount of time, or you're not healed, or you should
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Speaker 2: get out there.
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Speaker 1: Or you got to get back out there, get on
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Speaker 1: the horse, yeah.
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Speaker 2: Right, or you're not really prioritizing yourself or taking care
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Speaker 2: of yourself. Neither of those things are absolute truth. There
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Speaker 2: is no I'm a clinician, I'm a doctor. This is
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Speaker 2: what I do. There is no here's the answer. The
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Speaker 2: answer is within you and your first guess at it
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Speaker 2: may be wrong. Right. You might decide I'm ready. It's
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Speaker 2: important that I get out there. It's important that I
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Speaker 2: start this. And you try it and it doesn't feel right.
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Speaker 2: It doesn't feel fulfilling. It feels stressful or anxiety provoking,
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Speaker 2: or in some way uncomfortable, and so we check it
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Speaker 2: again with our intuition to go. That wasn't a match.
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Speaker 2: We pause, We surround ourselves with comforts and safe people
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Speaker 2: and known quantities, and we try it right. And if
9:13
Speaker 2: the sort of edict that like right, If you go
9:15
Speaker 2: out there too quickly, you aren't dealing with your pain
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Speaker 2: and your trauma, and you're covering up your feelings with
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Speaker 2: other people and the dynamics that that can create. Something
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Speaker 2: to bunch out for. That can be true, But allow
9:29
Speaker 2: yourself to discover that it's really important post divorce to
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Speaker 2: start carving your own path. And carving your own path
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Speaker 2: doesn't mean just an upward trajectory where everything just keeps
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Speaker 2: getting better. And better and better and more successful in
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Speaker 2: me building a tolerance for carving your own path and stumbling, Oh,
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Speaker 2: that didn't work, that didn't feel good. Actually didn't make
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Speaker 2: me feel more expansive and more grounded. It made me
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Speaker 2: feel more destabilized and disoriented. Good. Good that you're able
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Speaker 2: to realize that insight and go back and by again.
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Speaker 2: So my answer is look within and take take your
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Speaker 2: best guess, and honor yourself as you do that. And
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Speaker 2: if it isn't a match, if it isn't resonant, honor
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Speaker 2: your ability to go back and shift it. It's so
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Speaker 2: much of what we don't do in a marriage that
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Speaker 2: doesn't work. Look at your intuition, honor it, change we get.
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Speaker 1: Peah, I was going to say, it's after that kind
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Speaker 1: of trauma and you're in the grieving process, it's so
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Speaker 1: hard to rely or trust your own instincts when they
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Speaker 1: come up, you know. So you're saying it's a good
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Speaker 1: idea to really listen deeply to your own instincts.
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Speaker 2: Yes, and to your point, which is so critical when
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Speaker 2: you're destabilized, which is going to occur post trauma or
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Speaker 2: during trauma. Right, there's something my world we call like
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Speaker 2: trauma brain, which is exactly what it sounds like, like,
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Speaker 2: can't think the way I usually do, can't remember what
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Speaker 2: my errand was, can't remember my kid had soccer tomorrow? Right,
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Speaker 2: you just think and focus and orientation is off, either
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Speaker 2: intermittently or like on the regular, And so to your point,
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Speaker 2: it will probably be difficult to access intuition, and so
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Speaker 2: not stopping there, but saying, like, right, my road to
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Speaker 2: my intuition is a little rocky right now. It's a
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Speaker 2: little stumbly, it's a little unclear. That's okay. I'm like gonna,
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Speaker 2: you know, sort of hike through it and make my
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Speaker 2: best guess and adjust as I recognize it either fits
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Speaker 2: or doesn't, because the extreme of that is to either
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Speaker 2: stay completely paralyzed and do nothing, or to not think
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Speaker 2: at all, not reflect internally at all and just sort
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Speaker 2: of act impulsively and sitting with that messy middle of like, well, sure,
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Speaker 2: but this is my best guess about what feels right
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Speaker 2: to me, and I'm here for myself if I find
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Speaker 2: out that's not true.
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Speaker 1: Okay, Can I just say I really wish I had
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Speaker 1: you about ten years ago, because well, we're just talking
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Speaker 1: about it now and it's taking me back to that trauma,
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Speaker 1: and I feel in my body like that, I feel
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Speaker 1: tense and a little tingly, And it was just you're so,
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Speaker 1: it's so true what you're saying. And I never gave
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Speaker 1: it any of these thoughts when I was going through it.
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Speaker 1: I was doing all the things I probably shouldn't have,
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Speaker 1: been impulsive and distracting myself and blaming all the things.
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Speaker 2: Yes, you're giving me the chills when you're talking about it,
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Speaker 2: because I have such a passion for women going through
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Speaker 2: divorce and the lack of this kind of conceptionalism and
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Speaker 2: that I think would be so useful and grounding. And
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Speaker 2: even what you're saying that you did ten years ago,
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Speaker 2: none of that is quote wrong. It's just your perception
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Speaker 2: and conceptualization of it at the time probably felt really
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Speaker 2: internally disorienting and the opposite of grounding, right that had
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Speaker 2: you had the language and the sort of conceptualization that like, oh, yeah,
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Speaker 2: this is okay, this is part of trauma. This is
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Speaker 2: my trauma brain. I'm noticing it. I'm dealing with it.
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Speaker 2: As I said before, I'm dancing with it. I'm pausing,
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Speaker 2: I'm reflecting on my intuition. I'm stopping. I'm turning around
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Speaker 2: and making a different choice. It's not that had you
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Speaker 2: had this information, you wouldn't have done all those things.
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Speaker 2: That's trauma. We're not avoiding the hard parts. We're not
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Speaker 2: avoiding the blaming, the distracting, the depression, the making of
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Speaker 2: the wrong choices, the like disobeying our intuition. We're still
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Speaker 2: going to do it. This is trauma. This is trauma.
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Speaker 2: So trauma's messy, But you had language to go Wait
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Speaker 2: a minute, let me pause, let me slow this down,
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Speaker 2: let me be more intentional, let me rescue myself from
13:50
Speaker 2: this mission. It's not working for me right, and so
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Speaker 2: I just want to hold that space for women out
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Speaker 2: there going through it that having this conceptualization doesn't take
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Speaker 2: away the pain and the journey and the tendency to
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Speaker 2: do all the things you're talking about. It just gives
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Speaker 2: a language to talk about it to ourselves so we
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Speaker 2: aren't shamed, and to rescue ourselves when we notice we're
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Speaker 2: going in a place we don't belong.
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Speaker 1: So good. What if the idea of dating repulses me,
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Speaker 1: I mean you, I remember thinking I would rather lick
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Speaker 1: the bottom of my shoe than go on a date. No,
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Speaker 1: I'm not going to do that.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. My answer to that is, well, before I
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Speaker 2: say this, people around you will encourage you to adjust
14:41
Speaker 2: your perspective in that regard and hold tight to what
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Speaker 2: feels her current experience. If it feels repulsive, let it
14:51
Speaker 2: feel that way. And what it was going to say
14:52
Speaker 2: with that context is get curious. That's so interesting, that's
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Speaker 2: so interesting. Tell me much more, although you're talking to yourself,
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Speaker 2: tell me much more, like why? What? What about it?
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Speaker 2: Like all the dirty details of what you're thinking? What
15:07
Speaker 2: makes it feel so awful and so intolerable and so
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Speaker 2: completely unsustainable? Get really curious. Don't shame it, don't try
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Speaker 2: to shift it, don't try to change it, don't try
15:18
Speaker 2: to modify it. And I would offer conceptualize it as
15:22
Speaker 2: a season rather than a lifelong conception. Right. If it
15:27
Speaker 2: turns into a lifelong conception, I don't know. We'll think
15:29
Speaker 2: about it then. Right, But it makes a lot of
15:31
Speaker 2: sense that post divorce and in trauma, particularly if you
15:36
Speaker 2: were blamed and shamed and disrespected and there was infidelity
15:41
Speaker 2: betray all of that, and even if you weren't that
15:43
Speaker 2: the idea of putting yourself in a vulnerable situation again,
15:47
Speaker 2: and trusting yourself to show up in a way that
15:50
Speaker 2: is steeped in self care is scary, and so having
15:53
Speaker 2: a lot of grace and compassion for yourself and allowing
15:56
Speaker 2: that to be so. So, my goal for a person
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Speaker 2: sitting in front of me who had that going on
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Speaker 2: wouldn't be to change their mind, but would be to
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Speaker 2: get really to build a relationship with that truth, right,
16:08
Speaker 2: to get to know it and follow it. Does it shift,
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Speaker 2: does it change, does it dissipate? Does it deepen? How interesting? Right?
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Speaker 2: And then if it becomes something that is completely unshakable
16:20
Speaker 2: in over a long period of time, maybe we go deeper,
16:23
Speaker 2: you know, we start thinking about does this bump up
16:26
Speaker 2: against other experiences in your life, childhood dynamics, abandonment, being devalued,
16:32
Speaker 2: not seen, betrayed as a child, or in other relationships,
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Speaker 2: and do we need to look at that intersection and
16:40
Speaker 2: start to work to reduce the hold that you know,
16:44
Speaker 2: my goal as a clinician is to help people access
16:47
Speaker 2: connection and love and community, assuming that's one's goal, and
16:52
Speaker 2: it is most people's goal. And so if it comes
16:55
Speaker 2: to a point where someone is really keeping themselves from
16:58
Speaker 2: those things, then we look at that, but that initial
17:01
Speaker 2: feeling should be paradoxically completely honored.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're saying, get curious, ask yourself questions
17:10
Speaker 1: about things. I think For me personally, after it happened,
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Speaker 1: I didn't want to talk to myself. I didn't want
17:19
Speaker 1: to ask myself questions. I don't want to trust myself
17:21
Speaker 1: because I was I felt damaged and hurt and like
17:25
Speaker 1: I couldn't trust myself.
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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I'm so glad you're talking about that, because
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Speaker 2: I think that feeling stated ubiquitous for divorced women. That's
17:35
Speaker 2: sort of like, I don't want to get close to it.
17:36
Speaker 2: I don't want to feel it. I don't want to
17:38
Speaker 2: feel the hurt, and I don't want to feel the
17:40
Speaker 2: self blame or shame that we cultivate around what we
17:44
Speaker 2: did to contribute and where we are and society's reflection
17:48
Speaker 2: about where we are now all of that. And again,
17:52
Speaker 2: I wouldn't try to suggest that we can make that
17:55
Speaker 2: feeling go away, but rather, and this is the hardest part,
17:58
Speaker 2: but rather just get a lit a little bit closer
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Speaker 2: to it, a little bit closer to it. What is that?
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Speaker 2: Why am I so afraid to go to the feelings
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Speaker 2: what's the worst that's going to happen. What do I
18:08
Speaker 2: think is going to occur? You know if I just
18:10
Speaker 2: take one step closer to it. And what I'm about
18:13
Speaker 2: to say is super practical, but I think useful, which
18:15
Speaker 2: is that when we are in avoidance mode of feelings,
18:19
Speaker 2: setting aside five minutes to sit with the feeling. Literally,
18:23
Speaker 2: I mean taking out your phone and setting five minutes
18:25
Speaker 2: and whatever feels right to you, whether it's journaling or
18:29
Speaker 2: talking with a friend or just thinking about something that
18:33
Speaker 2: feels tricky, and then just being done with it, gently
18:36
Speaker 2: urging the feelings back. It's going to be there when
18:38
Speaker 2: I'm ready again, and just for the purpose, even if
18:42
Speaker 2: it doesn't change much of our feeling state, for the
18:45
Speaker 2: purpose of interrupting our neural pathways that are well traveled.
18:49
Speaker 2: We get the feeling and our immediate response is to
18:51
Speaker 2: not go to it. Denial, suppression, avoidance. That's a neural
18:55
Speaker 2: pathway we travel over and over and over and over again.
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Speaker 2: We want to interrupt that so we have more choices
19:01
Speaker 2: for other things over time, and even if we interrupt
19:03
Speaker 2: it with like five minutes of like gentle thinking about it,
19:07
Speaker 2: we start to change our brain chemistry around it.
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Speaker 1: Okay, say it's time to date, we've gotten to that point.
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Speaker 1: What do we need to do emotionally, physically, mentally so
19:20
Speaker 1: that we don't make the same mistakes?
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Speaker 2: You know?
19:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, if we were married to someone who wasn't right
19:28
Speaker 1: for us, how do we know how to not do
19:31
Speaker 1: that again?
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Speaker 2: Yes, so my answer is going to be a little tricky,
19:37
Speaker 2: but based in reality and anecdotal experience and clinical experience.
19:42
Speaker 2: I suppose that is not totally the question, because that
19:48
Speaker 2: question is a pretty big setup for failure at the
19:52
Speaker 2: smallest event, Right, how do I not do this again?
19:56
Speaker 2: And then we're at dinner and you say something to
20:02
Speaker 2: impress someone rather than being more authentic. Now all of
20:05
Speaker 2: a sudden, you're doing it again, and you failed failed, Right,
20:10
Speaker 2: And you go out with someone and you over text
20:13
Speaker 2: them and are needy or clinging in your estimation. You
20:16
Speaker 2: failed again. And so the question is not how do
20:20
Speaker 2: I not do the same thing? The question is how
20:23
Speaker 2: do I get How do I stay close to my
20:26
Speaker 2: process so I continue continuously evaluate how it feels to
20:30
Speaker 2: me and how it's going, and where my blind spots
20:32
Speaker 2: are and where my vulnerabilities are, and where some of
20:35
Speaker 2: my less adaptive behaviors show up and I can step
20:38
Speaker 2: in and interrupt them or correct them, or repair and
20:42
Speaker 2: go back and try again. Right. So the idea that
20:45
Speaker 2: we can just and I know you were saying exactly this,
20:48
Speaker 2: but the idea that we can just flip from like
20:51
Speaker 2: doing it wrong to doing it right is way too tricky.
20:54
Speaker 2: We're flawed humans.
20:55
Speaker 1: And yeah, that's kind of unrealistic.
20:57
Speaker 2: Yes, And even the best relationships we have, stuff we
21:00
Speaker 2: show up in ways we don't feel good about and like,
21:01
Speaker 2: oh I did it again, I did that thing where
21:03
Speaker 2: I snap at my partner.
21:05
Speaker 1: I suck, Yeah, I suck, right, what's wrong with me?
21:08
Speaker 2: So the question is just how can I track myself?
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Speaker 2: How can I hold myself accountable in a gentle, loving way.
21:15
Speaker 2: When I say accountable, I don't mean like not having
21:18
Speaker 2: a misstep, I mean like my I feeling about going
21:21
Speaker 2: out tonight. How do I feel when I'm with this person?
21:24
Speaker 2: How does he make me feel? How do I feel
21:26
Speaker 2: when I'm sitting with him? Do I feel like interested
21:29
Speaker 2: and compelled? Do I feel bored? Do I feel a
21:31
Speaker 2: sense of like I don't know, like rowdedness, safety orientation,
21:35
Speaker 2: or does it seem like I'm not being listened to,
21:37
Speaker 2: or like just getting curious about how you feel in
21:41
Speaker 2: scenarios with dates and men, right, and getting curious about
21:46
Speaker 2: how you show up. Wow, I like really talked a lot,
21:49
Speaker 2: or I didn't talk at all, or like, gosh, I
21:52
Speaker 2: was so triggered once we said good night, all I
21:54
Speaker 2: could think about was in texting or calling, right, just
21:57
Speaker 2: noticing the stuff that comes up. I think the edict
22:00
Speaker 2: people put on themselves is trying to avoid having any
22:05
Speaker 2: of these things happen, and when they do, feeling guilt
22:08
Speaker 2: and shame, embarrassment, judgment, self criticism as opposed to like,
22:12
Speaker 2: oh so interesting, what's that about? And how do I
22:16
Speaker 2: feel about it? And that doesn't feel good to me.
22:18
Speaker 2: It doesn't feel good to me that I'm overvaluating if
22:21
Speaker 2: this person is going to contact me again? For example? Right,
22:24
Speaker 2: what's that about? What is it connected to? How do
22:27
Speaker 2: I feel my body when I think about it? Are
22:30
Speaker 2: there resources tools I can put in place to help
22:33
Speaker 2: manage those tricky feelings when they come up? Be a
22:37
Speaker 2: friends via self soothing, meditation, therapy. Right? What can I
22:41
Speaker 2: do when I notice something is not serving me well?
22:45
Speaker 2: And so that is how we mobilize a path that
22:50
Speaker 2: is different is staying present and in it and close
22:54
Speaker 2: to our feelings rather than some macro sort of edict
22:59
Speaker 2: that we have to show up a certain or a
23:01
Speaker 2: different way.
23:13
Speaker 1: When is it the right time to start talking to
23:15
Speaker 1: the new person about our ex or the bloody massacre
23:22
Speaker 1: that was the relationship, or what happened in our relationship,
23:25
Speaker 1: or even if we have kids, Like that's the second
23:29
Speaker 1: I would think, the second thing you would talk to
23:30
Speaker 1: them about, Like, you know, what's the timeline for those
23:33
Speaker 1: kinds of things like how when do I talk about
23:35
Speaker 1: my ex? When do I talk about my kids that
23:37
Speaker 1: I have?
23:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good one, and I'll probably be a
23:44
Speaker 2: little more prescriptive about this. Look, I mean, before I
23:48
Speaker 2: say what I'm going to say again, intuition, if you
23:52
Speaker 2: know it feels right and there's a sharing and well
23:56
Speaker 2: maybe maybe it happens and it's a respontanious way, trust
24:01
Speaker 2: yourself if that feels right, and if you end up
24:04
Speaker 2: regretting it. That's an example of what we were just
24:06
Speaker 2: talking about. There's no like this is the answer. Having
24:10
Speaker 2: said that, I think in this arena it's almost like
24:15
Speaker 2: phi like private health information, you know what I mean?
24:18
Speaker 2: I think about phi, right, You're not like sharing other
24:22
Speaker 2: people's health information without intention, and so think of it
24:26
Speaker 2: as kind of your private health information, right, And you
24:29
Speaker 2: wouldn't give it to just anyone. It's a sacred part
24:33
Speaker 2: of who you are. And it's fragile, particularly post divorce.
24:37
Speaker 2: In the year or two afterwards, like ten years afterwards,
24:40
Speaker 2: it's less so you might be able to just make
24:43
Speaker 2: a joke about it casually to an acquaintance you just met, right,
24:46
Speaker 2: But in those first couple of years it's really sensitive
24:48
Speaker 2: and fragile. And treating it with care I think matters
24:52
Speaker 2: to the healing process. There's like a gravity and a
24:55
Speaker 2: sombreness to it that relates to that trauma. We were
24:57
Speaker 2: talking about. Not using it to garner sympathy or to
25:02
Speaker 2: fill in idle moments on a date, right, not giving
25:08
Speaker 2: up more of yourself too soon, you know, establishing a
25:14
Speaker 2: connection and a sense of who this other person is
25:18
Speaker 2: and determining if your fragile health information is you know,
25:23
Speaker 2: sort of feels right. Sharing And I was about to
25:27
Speaker 2: use the word safe, and look, it's tricky. We've met
25:30
Speaker 2: someone two times, five times, ten times, do we really
25:33
Speaker 2: know for sure if they can promise like a robust
25:37
Speaker 2: sort of period of safety. I don't know, we all
25:42
Speaker 2: know plenty of stories where it seems to be true
25:44
Speaker 2: and it ends up not being true. So I would
25:47
Speaker 2: just say, proceed with care, continue to notice how do
25:51
Speaker 2: I feel with this person? How do I share around them?
25:54
Speaker 2: How do they seem to communicate notions around their own feelings?
25:59
Speaker 2: What is their emotional intelligence level? Look like, right, are slow?
26:05
Speaker 2: You know, start flow? You don't have to give the
26:08
Speaker 2: whole story up. You might say that's that's a painful
26:12
Speaker 2: period and I'm still processing it, and like, you know,
26:16
Speaker 2: over time, perhaps they'll share more. Right if your body
26:19
Speaker 2: is still telling you I'm ready here? And kids, I
26:23
Speaker 2: think I would look at it sort of two ways.
26:26
Speaker 2: I think it's factually important to sort of say like
26:30
Speaker 2: I have a you know, a ten, eight and five
26:31
Speaker 2: year old, and you know, the light of my lives.
26:34
Speaker 2: I have them halftime and like huge part of who
26:36
Speaker 2: I am and how I move through the world. No,
26:38
Speaker 2: that's true for you. I think it's important to have
26:40
Speaker 2: that truth be proudly conveyed and implicit in that is
26:46
Speaker 2: that if you're interested in getting to know me, that's
26:48
Speaker 2: that's part of who I am right. That's important. So
26:51
Speaker 2: you know, read out folks that are like, I don't
26:55
Speaker 2: want to be with someone that has kids that little,
26:56
Speaker 2: or don't want to be with some of those three
26:57
Speaker 2: kids versus one. Right, whatever it is, I would embody
27:01
Speaker 2: that part of your identity as a mother pretty quickly
27:04
Speaker 2: to support that part of the process in terms of
27:09
Speaker 2: your relationship with your kids, your relationship with your ads,
27:12
Speaker 2: how you co parent. Again, you might give like a
27:15
Speaker 2: macro like it's a work in progress. It can be
27:19
Speaker 2: tricky and it can be amazing and you know, perhaps
27:22
Speaker 2: more information you know, to come in the future. Right.
27:26
Speaker 1: I love these answers you're giving because there are things
27:29
Speaker 1: that people can actually say and if you're listening, I
27:32
Speaker 1: want to do this and I'm not even going through
27:34
Speaker 1: a divorce. I want to write these sentences that these
27:37
Speaker 1: responses down and just like have a cheat sheet in
27:39
Speaker 1: my pocket on my day and be like one second,
27:42
Speaker 1: let me just check. Oh yeah, it's complicated, and I'm my.
27:47
Speaker 2: Clients do that all the time, right down the sentences.
27:50
Speaker 2: That's that's one of the ways I love to work. Yeah, yes,
27:52
Speaker 2: I think it's nice to have something prepared ay and
27:56
Speaker 2: to not feel pressure to share more than you were
27:59
Speaker 2: ready and to really own and embody the truth without
28:04
Speaker 2: sharing too much, which is like, it's tricky right now,
28:06
Speaker 2: tricky season, and perhaps over time I'll share more, you know,
28:10
Speaker 2: and that's it.
28:11
Speaker 1: That's enough.
28:12
Speaker 2: That's enough. You don't own more, and it reflects your truth.
28:15
Speaker 2: They're not shying away from it. You don't have to
28:17
Speaker 2: say you're co parenting beautifully and over the divorce if
28:20
Speaker 2: you're not, and you're not. But you also don't have
28:23
Speaker 2: to share and explain everything you can own. I'm in
28:27
Speaker 2: the messy middle. I know it, I accept it. I'm
28:30
Speaker 2: taking it on and like more to come.
28:34
Speaker 1: So good. Okay, So say you have kids, right? I
28:37
Speaker 1: love though that you should pretty early on let them
28:41
Speaker 1: know your situation. You know, I have two kids and
28:44
Speaker 1: two dogs or whatever, because you don't want that to
28:48
Speaker 1: bite you in the ass if you haven't told them.
28:50
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, and you own that. You own
28:53
Speaker 2: it's a big part of your life if it's true.
28:56
Speaker 2: Is with that you don't just say that but meaning
29:00
Speaker 2: the latter part, but just owning I'm like an amazing
29:05
Speaker 2: part of who I am. I'm a mom with two kids.
29:06
Speaker 2: They're five and seven and what I got going on,
29:10
Speaker 2: And that's it, right, that's so good. God.
29:13
Speaker 1: How much of a say should your kids get about
29:16
Speaker 1: you dating again? That's hard because it just I'm sure
29:20
Speaker 1: it depends on like the age of the kids. I
29:22
Speaker 1: know when I started dating, I had young and I
29:24
Speaker 1: had it a sixteen year old who was very opinionated
29:29
Speaker 1: about every move I made.
29:30
Speaker 2: Yep. So I'm going to answer this in like gradients,
29:34
Speaker 2: because you're right, it really depends on the age of
29:37
Speaker 2: the kids. So if you have little kids and like
29:40
Speaker 2: I'm defining, I'm eliminating like babies and like really small.
29:44
Speaker 2: But you know, if you're like in the like four
29:47
Speaker 2: year old, so like I don't know, like ten year old,
29:50
Speaker 2: to the extent possible, you're not updating your children on
29:53
Speaker 2: your dating life. There's really no need for them to know.
29:58
Speaker 2: In my clinical opinion, I would only introduce the concept
30:02
Speaker 2: if and when someone important came into your life and
30:05
Speaker 2: you planned on introducing them, which is a whole other
30:07
Speaker 2: topic we can talk about, and I have a whole
30:10
Speaker 2: approach about what that would look like. But there if
30:14
Speaker 2: they come to know you're out on a Thursday with
30:19
Speaker 2: Joe for whatever reason, I would just frame it as
30:21
Speaker 2: a friend and leave it there. There's no reason to
30:24
Speaker 2: burden young kids with adult information unless it's relevant and important.
30:29
Speaker 2: And your date with Joe on Thursday is not relevant
30:32
Speaker 2: and important unless Joe becomes your person, right and you
30:35
Speaker 2: have a much more deliberate conversation, which, as I said,
30:38
Speaker 2: we can talk about. So I'm saying a version of like,
30:41
Speaker 2: keep it from them. There's no reason for your little
30:43
Speaker 2: kids to know that you're dating your older kids, who
30:48
Speaker 2: might even proactively ask the question or just come to
30:51
Speaker 2: know because they are conscious beings.
30:54
Speaker 1: Right, that's been.
30:55
Speaker 2: Going out, right. I think it's really important to have
30:58
Speaker 2: a conversation with your kids, and not on the night
31:02
Speaker 2: you're going out with Joe, Like, how do you feel
31:04
Speaker 2: about this? I'm leaving in thirty minutes that like, if
31:08
Speaker 2: they're talking about it, or it's in the atmosphere that
31:10
Speaker 2: you sit down with them and go like huh, Like tricky,
31:14
Speaker 2: You're thinking about the idea that I might start dating,
31:17
Speaker 2: And you're right, and that has to feel like really weird,
31:22
Speaker 2: really really weird and hard. I know it feels weird
31:26
Speaker 2: and hard to me, so I can't imagine what it
31:28
Speaker 2: feels like to you. I want to sit here and
31:31
Speaker 2: tell me everything you're thinking about it. I want to
31:33
Speaker 2: hear it and just open up a space. I mean,
31:35
Speaker 2: if you have a kiddo who will talk, right, I'll
31:38
Speaker 2: if you don't. But if you have a kid who
31:40
Speaker 2: will talk, great, And I don't like it. I want
31:44
Speaker 2: you and Daddy to get back together. I think it's
31:45
Speaker 2: so lame. I think it's so gross. I want you
31:47
Speaker 2: to leave me, to go out. Like all the things
31:51
Speaker 2: that you just validate. You don't try to change their mind,
31:54
Speaker 2: you know, try to justify it. But I'm here all
31:56
Speaker 2: the time. It's just two hours you lean in. I
32:00
Speaker 2: feel so bad, like no matter how often I'm here
32:02
Speaker 2: with you, it just feels so bad. It feels so awful.
32:05
Speaker 2: Of course, you wish your mom and dad were together, Like,
32:07
Speaker 2: I get it, get it, and this is a reminder
32:10
Speaker 2: that we're not. I get it.
32:14
Speaker 1: So I feel so emotional because I can just like
32:16
Speaker 1: remember all of this and I'm trying to navigate it
32:20
Speaker 1: the best I could without these amazing tools.
32:24
Speaker 2: Yes, it's so difficult. But for the kids, and this
32:29
Speaker 2: is not age dependant. All they're thinking all the time,
32:34
Speaker 2: especially at the beginning, is I just wish my mom
32:36
Speaker 2: and dad were together. And we are a version of
32:39
Speaker 2: over it because we're the adults and we've thought about it,
32:42
Speaker 2: and we've been ideally intentional about it, and we're working
32:45
Speaker 2: to move through it. We have decided, or at least
32:49
Speaker 2: have been told, that we're not going to be with
32:51
Speaker 2: that person. Our kids, they have no say, and they
32:55
Speaker 2: don't get to move on like we do. They don't
32:58
Speaker 2: get to move on. It's a chronic trama that their
33:01
Speaker 2: parents aren't together. And our parental edict is to like
33:07
Speaker 2: imagine or facilitate our kids not suffering, you know, and
33:11
Speaker 2: so we just want to see But they seem okay,
33:13
Speaker 2: Like I'm not going to bring up that this might
33:15
Speaker 2: be painful for them, because they seem fine in many ways,
33:18
Speaker 2: they are fine and functional and thriving. But they're never
33:22
Speaker 2: fine that their mom and dad aren't together. And it's
33:25
Speaker 2: never not a good time to say I get it.
33:29
Speaker 2: I know that's still on your mind, even if you're
33:31
Speaker 2: ten years out. You know that you're a new person,
33:36
Speaker 2: right that you're still I know this still might bump
33:40
Speaker 2: up against this wound your dad. That's painful. It's never
33:45
Speaker 2: okay from your standpoint. I get it, and so the
33:49
Speaker 2: messaging in that moment about your date with you know,
33:52
Speaker 2: Joe coming up, is not about the date with Joe
33:55
Speaker 2: and trying to explain that it doesn't mean a lot.
34:00
Speaker 2: It's I know this matters, that this is going to
34:04
Speaker 2: start happening, and I know it matters because you're in
34:06
Speaker 2: pain and I see it and I feel it and
34:09
Speaker 2: I can't fix it. But I want you to have
34:12
Speaker 2: a space to talk about it. I want you to
34:14
Speaker 2: know that I love you, your father loves you. What
34:17
Speaker 2: I'm about to say, if this is all true, there
34:19
Speaker 2: are many complex scenarios where it's not. But and we
34:22
Speaker 2: are still a family because we'll always be your mom
34:24
Speaker 2: and dad will always co parents, and we'll always all
34:27
Speaker 2: have that connection. Having said that, it's not the same,
34:30
Speaker 2: and I know that's what this brings up.
34:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take a pause right here. I want to
34:36
Speaker 1: continue this conversation because there's so much more that I
34:40
Speaker 1: have to ask you. If you want to call us
34:42
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Speaker 1: I Do Part two an iHeartRadio podcast where falling in
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