Latest / Ridiculous History / CLASSIC: The People vs. Lenny Bruce: Ridiculous Stand-up Stories with Wayne Federman

Transcript

CLASSIC: The People vs. Lenny Bruce: Ridiculous Stand-up Stories with Wayne Federman · Ridiculous History

0:00
Speaker 1: Fellow Ridiculous Historians. Welcome to this week's classic episode. Now
0:04
Speaker 1: we want to let you know at the top, this
0:06
Speaker 1: is an interview. It's a very exciting one for us,
0:09
Speaker 1: and we had a lot of fun with a friend
0:11
Speaker 1: of the show here. There is also some strong language, so.
0:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no way to get around at y'all, MEPs
0:19
Speaker 2: and Jeffson. This one with our buddy Wayne Fetterman, who
0:23
Speaker 2: you may know from Curb Your Enthusiasm from stand up.
0:26
Speaker 2: He's just a long time fixture in the LA comedy
0:30
Speaker 2: scene and a really cool dude, and I believe he
0:32
Speaker 2: also teaches history of stand up comedy at the time
0:35
Speaker 2: he did at a university of some stripe there LA.
0:43
Speaker 1: He also is, as you were saying, he is a
0:45
Speaker 1: legitimate walking encyclopedia of stand up comedy history and one
0:52
Speaker 1: of the people that he really connects with, and a
0:57
Speaker 1: story that he has examined in thorough depth is the
1:00
Speaker 1: story of the legendary stand up Lenny Bruce.
1:04
Speaker 2: Lennie Bruce, very famous censorship case, indecency case. Excellent film
1:13
Speaker 2: starring what's his name Dustin Hoffman called Lenny by Bob
1:17
Speaker 2: Fossey that I highly recommend and we get into all
1:20
Speaker 2: of that and the sad and tragic tale of Lenny Bruce,
1:23
Speaker 2: who was a really funny guy with some really not
1:26
Speaker 2: funny demons.
1:27
Speaker 1: And this is part one of a two part series
1:30
Speaker 1: with Wayne Fetterman, So tune in for our next classic
1:34
Speaker 1: in the same vein about George Carlin. Ridiculous History, is
1:40
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. Before we get started, folks, it's
1:44
Speaker 1: important to know that this episode contains some strong and
1:48
Speaker 1: explicit language that may not be suitable for all the listeners.
1:52
Speaker 1: So if you've got your kiddos in the crowd, this
1:55
Speaker 1: might not be the episode for them. We thought about
1:58
Speaker 1: censoring it, but we just we couldn't, not in good faith,
2:02
Speaker 1: because this episode is fundamentally about free speech and language.
2:07
Speaker 1: We hope you enjoy. And one additional note, we had
2:10
Speaker 1: a little bit of technical difficulty at the beginning of
2:14
Speaker 1: this episode this first part of our two part series.
2:17
Speaker 1: Due to this technical difficulty, Noles Mike is actually not
2:21
Speaker 1: on for the duration of the first episode or for
2:25
Speaker 1: most of it. However, we believe that this interview was
2:29
Speaker 1: important enough and enjoyable enough and fantastic enough that we
2:34
Speaker 1: wanted to salvage it. And play it out in full.
2:37
Speaker 3: And hopefully I didn't say too much.
3:04
Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, ridiculous historians, we have something very
3:08
Speaker 1: special for you today. Now we get our yucks, and
3:11
Speaker 1: we get our goffas and our chuckles. Occasionally, wouldn't you say,
3:14
Speaker 1: no yucks and the chucks mm hmm, that's how we
3:17
Speaker 1: refer to them. But we have rarely talked about the
3:22
Speaker 1: profound depth of story in the evolution of comedy and
3:27
Speaker 1: comedy is commentary right, No, Like way way back in
3:30
Speaker 1: the day in Western Europe, even the jester was the
3:34
Speaker 1: only person sometimes who could speak the truth to the king.
3:36
Speaker 4: Well, sure, I mean it's a profession of truth telling, Ben,
3:39
Speaker 4: which is your name? Oh, that's right, And it's evolved
3:41
Speaker 4: over time and it's become an important source of satire
3:45
Speaker 4: and social commentary. And it's these comedians that are able
3:48
Speaker 4: to say things that are needed to help society like
3:51
Speaker 4: move forward, and to help change laws and change perspectives.
3:55
Speaker 4: And that is no exception for the two incredible comments
3:58
Speaker 4: we're talking about today.
3:59
Speaker 3: But we're not doing it a.
4:00
Speaker 1: Right, that's right. No, we are joined of course, as
4:03
Speaker 1: always with our super producer. We've got Paul Deccan filling
4:06
Speaker 1: in for Casey Pegram today. Make sure you knocked out
4:09
Speaker 1: the sound cues, Paul. But we did not come alone
4:17
Speaker 1: into this fray of comics versus the law. We came
4:22
Speaker 1: with an expert. We would like to introduce you, fellow
4:26
Speaker 1: ridiculous historians, to the man, the myth, the legend, Wayne Fetterman.
4:30
Speaker 5: Thank you, thank you for calling me a myth?
4:33
Speaker 3: What does it mean to be a myth? Does that
4:34
Speaker 3: mean exist?
4:35
Speaker 5: That means I don't exist?
4:37
Speaker 4: We clearly if you've watched television over the last several evers, yeah,
4:42
Speaker 4: I mean you have seen this man and everything from
4:45
Speaker 4: the X Files. I saw you as an episode of Baywatch,
4:47
Speaker 4: which was very impressive to me.
4:49
Speaker 1: Enthusiasm.
4:50
Speaker 3: You are Dean Weinstock and Kurby Enthusiasm.
4:52
Speaker 4: And you basically extorted Larry David for a meeting of
4:55
Speaker 4: Julia Louis Dreyfus so that he would have a.
4:57
Speaker 3: Wire removed from his backyard, and in the meeting didn't
5:00
Speaker 3: go well, and you refuse to have the wire removed.
5:02
Speaker 3: What is your deal?
5:03
Speaker 1: What was that line? What was that line in that
5:06
Speaker 1: in that one? We say you call that a meeting,
5:08
Speaker 1: I call that one of the most.
5:10
Speaker 5: Fortat just so horrible moment in my life.
5:11
Speaker 1: Yes, that was. That was amazing.
5:14
Speaker 5: Also, just before we continue with my credits, because that's
5:17
Speaker 5: going to be the best part of the show. You know,
5:20
Speaker 5: none of those lines are written, so every it's just
5:23
Speaker 5: you have the bullet points of what's supposed to happen
5:25
Speaker 5: in that scene, and we do it, and we do it,
5:28
Speaker 5: and then we'll do it a few times and then
5:30
Speaker 5: Larry will go more of that, less of that, more
5:32
Speaker 5: of this. That's funny. And so every line you hear
5:36
Speaker 5: me say on that show is something I wrote at
5:38
Speaker 5: the moment.
5:39
Speaker 1: That's even more impressive.
5:40
Speaker 4: That's incredible, And I have to ask to be behind
5:42
Speaker 4: the curtain. Is it a pedantic number of takes or is.
5:45
Speaker 3: It pretty show?
5:46
Speaker 4: Is it pretty much like, let's do it a couple
5:48
Speaker 4: of months, let's do one more time. It seems like
5:49
Speaker 4: Larry would be more laid back, like.
5:51
Speaker 1: Be a little more like a brief emotional direction or something.
5:55
Speaker 3: What's the scoop?
5:56
Speaker 5: Well, it's a good question for that was I mean
5:58
Speaker 5: this was early on, that's like the sixth episode of
6:01
Speaker 5: the show, so they were still kind of figuring out
6:03
Speaker 5: their technique at that point, and a guy named Larry
6:06
Speaker 5: Charles was directing it, but just basically Larry David like, yeah,
6:10
Speaker 5: that's that's close enough. Let's go on to the next
6:12
Speaker 5: Like it wasn't. It wasn't like, oh, this moment has
6:16
Speaker 5: to be perfect, and so yeah, so it wasn't a
6:19
Speaker 5: lot of takes. Although I will say this, and this
6:21
Speaker 5: is going to sound like I'm bragging, but I'm not.
6:24
Speaker 5: It's just that Larry sometimes gets like these giggle fits.
6:28
Speaker 5: And so the next time I did the show where
6:30
Speaker 5: I had to hug him and he breaks my glasses
6:33
Speaker 5: and I'm like, no problem, I'll just send you an invoice.
6:35
Speaker 6: That's right.
6:37
Speaker 5: He kept laughing every time because I'm so sincere in
6:40
Speaker 5: my like I'm the nice guy who's a horrible guy.
6:43
Speaker 5: Is sort of was the angle of that dude that
6:46
Speaker 5: he just kept laughing, laughing, laughing to the point where
6:49
Speaker 5: he had to apologize to the crew for pushing in
6:51
Speaker 5: the shoot back.
6:52
Speaker 1: So that's great.
6:54
Speaker 4: I mean, oh my god, I just want to say
6:56
Speaker 4: I wish Larry David was my dad.
6:58
Speaker 3: I've said that many times.
6:59
Speaker 4: I don't know why I didn't have a very good
7:00
Speaker 4: relationship with my dad, So maybe that's being informed by that.
7:03
Speaker 4: But Larry David just strikes me as like the perfect curmudgeon.
7:06
Speaker 4: But he also seems like he'd be pretty cool to
7:08
Speaker 4: work with and pretty easy to get along with.
7:09
Speaker 3: This by his careacter.
7:10
Speaker 5: So you want to dad his multimillionaire.
7:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess it just makes great observations.
7:17
Speaker 1: You know what, Noel, I agree, I would love it
7:20
Speaker 1: if he were your dad, because then I could just
7:22
Speaker 1: come over. But I would it wouldn't have to be
7:25
Speaker 1: a forever thing I could leave. But let us continue
7:30
Speaker 1: just a little bit way with some more of some
7:33
Speaker 1: more of these credentials. Some people may not know that
7:36
Speaker 1: you are a professor at the University of Southern California.
7:40
Speaker 5: Correct, that is correct. I am officially, I mean I'm
7:44
Speaker 5: a professor, that's the right word. But I am an
7:46
Speaker 5: adjunct professor. Do you know what that means?
7:49
Speaker 1: Does that mean not tenured?
7:50
Speaker 3: Do I mean you don't have an office.
7:51
Speaker 5: All all of those things? Correct? Whatever you think means,
7:56
Speaker 5: it basically means not a real professors. What it means
7:59
Speaker 5: it means I don't have like a master's or a
8:01
Speaker 5: PhD or something like that.
8:03
Speaker 3: But just are you teaching the history of stand up.
8:05
Speaker 5: Is that your specialty in both the history of stand
8:08
Speaker 5: up and a performance class combined? Yes, and it's advanced.
8:12
Speaker 5: It's you have to take another stand up class even
8:14
Speaker 5: to get to Professor Betterman.
8:17
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, so if we were to enroll, we would
8:20
Speaker 1: have to start start at level one.
8:22
Speaker 3: You got pre RECs. You have pre RECs.
8:24
Speaker 4: I have pre And not only do you teach these classes,
8:28
Speaker 4: you also have a brand new podcast on the Ponglomerate
8:31
Speaker 4: Network that's called The History of stand Up, which is
8:34
Speaker 4: a surprise surprise, is about the history of stand up.
8:37
Speaker 5: Uh, yeah, it's not. It's not a misdirect. It's not like,
8:40
Speaker 5: oh my god, We're just gonna be talking about, you know,
8:43
Speaker 5: youth culture and Monrovia. That's how good I am at
8:48
Speaker 5: ad libbing. I can't quite get a word at.
8:50
Speaker 3: But you never know. We're gonna tap some of your
8:52
Speaker 3: your knowledge on the subject today for this episode.
8:55
Speaker 5: Of course, that's why I'm here.
8:56
Speaker 1: Before we continue, I do want to say a specific
9:00
Speaker 1: enjoyed the episode on the rise of stand up or
9:04
Speaker 1: what we perceive as modern stand up through the Vaudeville era,
9:08
Speaker 1: and thank you? Yeah, I think you I learned a lot.
9:11
Speaker 1: I'm going to be insufferable at parties for the next
9:13
Speaker 1: few weeks.
9:14
Speaker 4: Was you want to set the stage a little bit
9:15
Speaker 4: with just like I think that the comics we're talking
9:17
Speaker 4: about today obviously benefited from and you mentioned at the
9:20
Speaker 4: top of the show, Ben the idea of stand up
9:22
Speaker 4: as truth telling and this notion of the what is
9:25
Speaker 4: it called the performance.
9:26
Speaker 1: Of one performance in one one?
9:28
Speaker 3: Will you talk a little bit about that, Wayne, like.
9:30
Speaker 5: Just this concept a little absolutely. It's just so you know,
9:34
Speaker 5: I know you you hold these comedians up as these
9:37
Speaker 5: truth tellers and on the vanguard of social change, and
9:41
Speaker 5: there is an element of comedy that is that there's
9:44
Speaker 5: also a whole nother see whole ocean of comedy that
9:48
Speaker 5: isn't that that's just making people laugh and in a
9:51
Speaker 5: way that's a wonderful experience.
9:54
Speaker 1: Agreed.
9:54
Speaker 5: So yeah, so I just I know you. I feel
9:57
Speaker 5: like comedians, some kinds get elevated these truth tellers, like
10:01
Speaker 5: they're really just trying to get people to laugh. There
10:05
Speaker 5: is their main goal. Is their main goal. So, uh no,
10:07
Speaker 5: if we go back to VA, it's interesting you should
10:09
Speaker 5: you picked up on that episode because we talk about
10:12
Speaker 5: this guy Frank Fay that a lot of people look
10:15
Speaker 5: to is the architect of the modern what we consider
10:18
Speaker 5: the modern stand up. It's kind of like a wise guy,
10:21
Speaker 5: smart guy in a suit, who does you know, no
10:24
Speaker 5: baggy pants, no weird hat, doesn't you know, crazy big
10:28
Speaker 5: tie or anything like that that screams, hey, I'm a comedian,
10:31
Speaker 5: you know, just a guy, a sharp talking guy. And
10:34
Speaker 5: from that with this guy's name is Frank Fay, and
10:37
Speaker 5: another time he should do an episode. You guys should
10:39
Speaker 5: do one Frank Fay because he's a really interesting guy,
10:43
Speaker 5: because he not only creates this, but is this sort
10:46
Speaker 5: of anti Semitic and he's he supports the Nazis, and
10:49
Speaker 5: it's he's just a crazy dude. He's a very insufferable man.
10:53
Speaker 5: And uh, it's just like that, this guy. I love that.
10:57
Speaker 5: In fact, this is the guy that sort of started
10:59
Speaker 5: the whole thing. It's perfect. It's perfect. So anyway, vaudeville
11:02
Speaker 5: was family entertainment, and the height of vaudeville, like what
11:06
Speaker 5: today would be getting a Netflix special, was to perform
11:10
Speaker 5: at a theater in New York or the Palace, which
11:13
Speaker 5: was right off Broadway in forty four or no, no, no,
11:16
Speaker 5: it's a little higher than that. Forty eighth and so
11:19
Speaker 5: that was like the goal of every comedian, and Frank
11:21
Speaker 5: Faye was the MC at the Palace. They used to
11:24
Speaker 5: not even have MC's. They used to just put up
11:26
Speaker 5: a placard or like a big card and say this
11:29
Speaker 5: is you know, Fink's mules, and then this act would
11:32
Speaker 5: come out and they do it. So he would like
11:34
Speaker 5: in between the acts, he'd like kibbets with the crowd,
11:36
Speaker 5: and eventually that became his act. And by performing in one,
11:40
Speaker 5: usually there was a curtain and so in one was
11:43
Speaker 5: the very front of the stage. That meant you didn't
11:46
Speaker 5: need anything behind you. So a lot of times comedians
11:49
Speaker 5: were needed because they would be setting up an acroback
11:52
Speaker 5: act or a contortionist act behind the curtain while the
11:56
Speaker 5: stand up was just doing his stick. So that was
11:59
Speaker 5: called being in one. And now it means sort of
12:01
Speaker 5: like you are alone out there. It's a literal and
12:05
Speaker 5: figurative statement, if I'm not mistaken.
12:08
Speaker 1: So that's that makes sense though from from the behind
12:12
Speaker 1: the scenes perspective that you wouldn't want that dead air, right,
12:16
Speaker 1: you would want the audience to have something to look at, yep.
12:20
Speaker 5: Yep, exactly. You don't want a big, deep stage behind
12:22
Speaker 5: you when all you really need is it just your voice.
12:25
Speaker 5: And then microphone sort of changed that a little bit,
12:28
Speaker 5: you know, and that was more of the nightclub era.
12:30
Speaker 5: And that's when they added something called alcohol to the equation.
12:35
Speaker 4: And is that is that we kind of move more
12:37
Speaker 4: from vaudeville into like burlesque, where it becomes less of
12:40
Speaker 4: a family affair.
12:41
Speaker 5: Is that when the now ran ran concurrent to vaudeville,
12:44
Speaker 5: which was like a lower class entertainment that was kind
12:47
Speaker 5: of looked down upon. And mainly men went to burlesque shows,
12:50
Speaker 5: not a lot of women, and it was sort of
12:52
Speaker 5: like there might be a stripper or a you know,
12:55
Speaker 5: a very a fan dancer or something you know like that.
12:59
Speaker 5: And and the cam in Burlesk were way more broad
13:02
Speaker 5: and because you had you know, there were just guys
13:05
Speaker 5: there in them, you know, degenerates in the middle of
13:07
Speaker 5: the afternoon watching women. And then it was very hard
13:11
Speaker 5: to do very subtle kind of you know Jack Benny
13:14
Speaker 5: to kuype of humor to these guys. Yeah, so Burlesk
13:17
Speaker 5: grant concurrent to Vaudeville, but was like considered a low
13:21
Speaker 5: form of entertainment.
13:27
Speaker 1: And when we were originally talking before doing this episode,
13:33
Speaker 1: we had asked you to share with our listeners some
13:38
Speaker 1: stories about what we would what we would call notorious
13:43
Speaker 1: cases of comedians versus the law. And I'm setting this
13:48
Speaker 1: up now because when we I believe you had said
13:52
Speaker 1: earlier in the history of stand up that the term
13:55
Speaker 1: stand up comic didn't really come about until the late forties,
13:59
Speaker 1: maybe nineteen forties or so.
14:01
Speaker 5: One hundred percent correct. Somebody is listening to my podcast.
14:03
Speaker 5: This is a miracle. I love it. I literally thought
14:06
Speaker 5: my podcast would be for like, I don't know one
14:09
Speaker 5: hundred and eighty people who are ridged in the history
14:11
Speaker 5: of this. So yeah, they didn't have a term for
14:15
Speaker 5: like when Milton Burrell was doing stand up and we
14:17
Speaker 5: have a clip of Burrell at the Winter Garden Theater
14:19
Speaker 5: doing basically stand up jokes. You know, he does a
14:22
Speaker 5: joke about a restaurant that's so expensive they have three
14:25
Speaker 5: waiters for each table, one to give you the check
14:27
Speaker 5: and two to revive you, so, you know, just to
14:30
Speaker 5: like a joke, just to you know, jokes. And he
14:33
Speaker 5: was doing that stuff before there was even the term standards.
14:36
Speaker 5: So they called him either monologists or comics or something.
14:39
Speaker 5: Like that. But then eventually, like bookers wanted to know
14:44
Speaker 5: what you were getting, Like they would book a variety
14:46
Speaker 5: show and they would need a singer and you know,
14:49
Speaker 5: maybe a juggler, and then a comic, and they go,
14:53
Speaker 5: what kind of comedy does he stand up? Does he
14:55
Speaker 5: need music? Does he you know? And so it was
14:57
Speaker 5: a specific kind of comic who just used their voice.
15:01
Speaker 1: I guess one of the big questions we have, like
15:03
Speaker 1: the to Knowle's exploration there of burlesque running concurrently with
15:07
Speaker 1: vaudeville but being considered a lower form of entertainment. Where
15:12
Speaker 1: did these stand up comics fit in? Were they controversial?
15:18
Speaker 1: Were they just something new and strange? Was it a
15:21
Speaker 1: slow evolution or a sudden one.
15:24
Speaker 5: That's a good question. I you know, I think people
15:27
Speaker 5: always you know, I just think it's a human need
15:31
Speaker 5: to want to laugh. Like, especially in a group of people.
15:34
Speaker 5: It's a very exciting, cathartic, you know, elevated moment is
15:40
Speaker 5: when you're all laughing at the same time. I don't
15:42
Speaker 5: know if you've ever seen a movie called Sullivan's Travels,
15:46
Speaker 5: but it's just a great movie about this Broadway producer
15:50
Speaker 5: who like gets burnt out on Hollywood and goes to
15:53
Speaker 5: see what, you know, what is, pretends he's like a bum.
15:57
Speaker 5: And one of the great moments is just watching these
16:00
Speaker 5: these cartoons with a bunch of itinerant workers and they're
16:04
Speaker 5: all laughing together and it's like, oh, there's value in this.
16:08
Speaker 5: There's a value. It's a beautiful movie. And I know
16:12
Speaker 5: that's a little sidetracked, but.
16:13
Speaker 3: My point is it sounds fantastic.
16:15
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's like, well, I don't
16:18
Speaker 5: know anyway, Joel McRae, Veronica Lake, I'm gonna name the
16:22
Speaker 5: whole cast people no one's ever heard of. I'm gonna
16:25
Speaker 5: keep going. So it's I don't know, I I guess.
16:30
Speaker 5: You know, there's always been funny, but like you said earlier,
16:32
Speaker 5: there's court gestures and you know even uh, you know,
16:35
Speaker 5: early on in vaudeville there was like funny comedian singer types,
16:39
Speaker 5: which is like an Eddie Canter or something like that,
16:43
Speaker 5: and then they were just like, oh, people just like
16:45
Speaker 5: the comedy part, and so people specialized in that, and
16:49
Speaker 5: then that became very much more kind of like an
16:52
Speaker 5: opening act for like a singer like I was just
16:55
Speaker 5: listening to like George Carlin would open for this singer
16:59
Speaker 5: named Oliver in the sixties, and Woody Allen opened for
17:02
Speaker 5: Barbara streisand and then later for Jim Crochey. So it
17:05
Speaker 5: was like a great way to sort of settle the crowd,
17:09
Speaker 5: get some laughs, and then you know, get the headliner
17:11
Speaker 5: up there. Unless it was and eventually the comics became
17:14
Speaker 5: the headline.
17:15
Speaker 7: Well.
17:15
Speaker 4: And it's also like kind of a self sufficient act, right,
17:18
Speaker 4: Like you don't really need a whole lot of props
17:20
Speaker 4: or you know, back line or like equipment or anything.
17:22
Speaker 3: It's just a person and their brain.
17:24
Speaker 1: And their mouth and maybe a microphone a microphone.
17:27
Speaker 5: So that's yeah, one hundred percent. That's why musicians like
17:30
Speaker 5: want to be comics. They're like, oh, I don't have
17:32
Speaker 5: to deal with this road crew guy and this dude
17:35
Speaker 5: setting up my guitar and not tuning it right. And
17:37
Speaker 5: like even to be in a band is a lot
17:39
Speaker 5: of stuff, like we just get on an airplane or
17:42
Speaker 5: get in a car and go to the gig and
17:44
Speaker 5: then go back. It's it is. I think it's the simplest, right,
17:48
Speaker 5: there's really I mean, I'm gonna throw that out to
17:50
Speaker 5: you guys. Can you think of anything where you need
17:53
Speaker 5: to bring less physical attributes to the to the act.
17:57
Speaker 3: No, not really, maybe podcasting. I mean they usually provide
18:01
Speaker 3: the mikes for us too.
18:02
Speaker 4: We're actually doing our first tour next week, so we'll
18:05
Speaker 4: report back and let's go how that goes.
18:07
Speaker 5: But we do have Oh you're going out on the road.
18:09
Speaker 5: I love it.
18:10
Speaker 1: We're hitting the road way and wish this luck.
18:12
Speaker 4: But listen, let's get let's get to let's get to
18:14
Speaker 4: the let let's get to the headlines.
18:16
Speaker 5: So the headliner. All right, sorry, knowledge, I'm sorry, hey.
18:20
Speaker 3: Professor Fetterman, come on, let's take it easier.
18:24
Speaker 4: So we're talking about the term stand up not really
18:26
Speaker 4: coming around until the forties. But around the fifties, you
18:29
Speaker 4: got a guy named Lenny Bruce who comes onto the
18:31
Speaker 4: scene and he gets his start, you know, doing the
18:35
Speaker 4: same thing that a lot of comedians would do, where
18:37
Speaker 4: he would be on what was it the Steve Allen Show?
18:40
Speaker 3: I believe he was on pretty early in his career.
18:42
Speaker 5: Lenny Bruce is a fascinating story because he's he's like
18:46
Speaker 5: this legend in a way because of what he did
18:50
Speaker 5: basically in a like a four or five year period.
18:52
Speaker 5: And I'll explain it to you he really he was
18:54
Speaker 5: in the war in the forties, his mom was in
18:57
Speaker 5: show Becausiness. She was kind of a comic. He was
19:00
Speaker 5: a talent show and he gets, you know, does a
19:02
Speaker 5: bunch of impressions, and then he's on Broadway Open House
19:05
Speaker 5: in I f and then he's not really on television
19:07
Speaker 5: at all. In for most of the fifties, he's basically,
19:11
Speaker 5: remember we were talking about burlesque and strip clubs. He
19:13
Speaker 5: was basically a comedian that worked in strip clubs was
19:16
Speaker 5: his thing, and which was this brutal existence. But he
19:19
Speaker 5: was you know, he fell in love with this stripper
19:21
Speaker 5: named Honey, and he you know, he just could kind
19:26
Speaker 5: of develop this act trying to entertain these guys and
19:29
Speaker 5: was just kicking around. Couldn't get anything go and tried
19:32
Speaker 5: to make these short films and wrote scripts in Hollywood
19:35
Speaker 5: and nothing, couldn't get any traction, really, and then finally
19:40
Speaker 5: when mort Saul came along and opened up stand up
19:45
Speaker 5: to being a little more about commentary, which you guys
19:48
Speaker 5: mentioned earlier. This inspired Lenny Bruce. And also there was
19:52
Speaker 5: a he had sort of a I don't know what's
19:55
Speaker 5: a muse is the word I would use, named Joe
19:57
Speaker 5: ansis this is famous comedy history who kind of developed
20:02
Speaker 5: Lenny Bruce's jazz talking jive style. I don't know if
20:07
Speaker 5: you've heard his records, but it's sometimes it's hard to
20:09
Speaker 5: even to connect with them because the language is like,
20:12
Speaker 5: you know, so up too, said times.
20:15
Speaker 7: Ladies and gentlemen, the Palladium Theater.
20:17
Speaker 6: Body was in Semitica's fastest rise young comedian and dean of.
20:21
Speaker 7: Satire, mister Frank Dell.
20:24
Speaker 6: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and certainly nice to be
20:27
Speaker 6: here at the most famous theater in the world, the
20:30
Speaker 6: wonderful Palladium Theater. Well, folks, I just got back from
20:38
Speaker 6: lost wages. Never funny thing about working lost wages, folks.
20:45
Speaker 6: The way to make a lot of money there when
20:47
Speaker 6: you get off the plane, walk right into the propel
20:50
Speaker 6: and then into the motel jokes, the army jokes, the impressions, ten, twelve,
20:55
Speaker 6: fifteen minutes, and he's bombing nothing but not left one.
21:02
Speaker 7: Now he goes into the dying jokes.
21:06
Speaker 8: Oh, well, folks, I wasn't born having him short dying
21:10
Speaker 8: here hah, A lot of different ways to die and
21:14
Speaker 8: blah blah blah. Nice starts with putting the audience down well,
21:18
Speaker 8: Freddy Freddie boye. I see it's little Squaresville, the little
21:21
Speaker 8: Squaresville for the first.
21:22
Speaker 7: Show, the greatest in them all. Oh my baby, Billman cracks.
21:29
Speaker 7: Let's go to show business Heaven. How about him? I
21:33
Speaker 7: show eh walks off. I guess the little courtesy was
21:36
Speaker 7: two people. Sounds like Citizen King Harold.
21:40
Speaker 5: And again this is this is later in his career.
21:43
Speaker 5: This is not in the fifty one to fifty. He
21:45
Speaker 5: only started recording later, and that recording is a perfect
21:48
Speaker 5: example of it. I just this. You know, he would
21:50
Speaker 5: do bits, but he had kind of a hey Man style,
21:53
Speaker 5: and he was very much, you know, into amphetamines and
21:56
Speaker 5: pot and you know, he was he had a relationship
22:00
Speaker 5: with with drugs, let's let's put it that way, ultimately
22:03
Speaker 5: killed him. And then then he puts you know, he
22:07
Speaker 5: puts out this album and that came out in nineteen
22:10
Speaker 5: fifty nine, and he was known for using dirty words
22:14
Speaker 5: and became what known as a sick comedian. There was
22:17
Speaker 5: a great article on Time magazine about these sick comedians
22:20
Speaker 5: who would do just like like one of his jokes
22:22
Speaker 5: would be like, uh, the problem with my marriage was
22:27
Speaker 5: my mother in law because I slept with her too
22:29
Speaker 5: many times or something like, you know, just like weird,
22:31
Speaker 5: like people would be like, what is God? What is he?
22:34
Speaker 5: What did I hear? You know, that kind of thing,
22:36
Speaker 5: And so, guess what, he starts making fun. One of
22:39
Speaker 5: his big bits is called religion Incorporated. And he starts
22:42
Speaker 5: doing this bit, and you know a lot of cops
22:46
Speaker 5: are irish, you know at that time, and so and
22:51
Speaker 5: just you know, the DA's and stuff. So he gets
22:53
Speaker 5: arrested in San Francisco and then he becomes known as
22:56
Speaker 5: this comedian who's being censored, and sort of that elevated
23:00
Speaker 5: him a little bit. And then he gets arrested in
23:04
Speaker 5: Chicago at the Gate of Horn and you know, believe
23:06
Speaker 5: it or not, George Carlin is at that show also
23:09
Speaker 5: gets arrested just because you won't show the cops his ID.
23:14
Speaker 5: And Lenny Bridge is like, why do they arrest you
23:17
Speaker 5: because I wouldn't show my idea because you're a schmuck,
23:19
Speaker 5: you know that kind of thing. But the big case
23:27
Speaker 5: happened in New York at the Cafe Wah Wah. I
23:31
Speaker 5: think it's called.
23:32
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's like fed up with these puritanical l A
23:36
Speaker 4: cops or Southern California.
23:38
Speaker 3: Cops, which is right.
23:39
Speaker 5: So he thinks New York is going to be way
23:40
Speaker 5: more progressive.
23:41
Speaker 1: And that's in Greenwich Village, right, yes.
23:43
Speaker 5: Yes, this is the scene. You know, Ginsburg's there and
23:47
Speaker 5: Dylan is there, and it's like it's, uh, you know,
23:50
Speaker 5: it's very couldn't be more progressive. I mean outside of
23:53
Speaker 5: maybe Madison, Wisconsin or something. I mean, it is the
23:57
Speaker 5: centerpiece of progressive and so he's like, Okay, I'm this
24:00
Speaker 5: is where I'm going to do it. And of course,
24:02
Speaker 5: you know, the Irish New York cops they arrest them,
24:05
Speaker 5: and that arrest and conviction stayed on his record for
24:11
Speaker 5: his entire life. And it wasn't until I believe two
24:13
Speaker 5: thousand and three when Governor Pataki of New York overturned
24:18
Speaker 5: or gave him clemency or whatever. He pardoned him and
24:22
Speaker 5: struck that from the thing. So it was like he was,
24:25
Speaker 5: I know, it sounds impossible to believe that adult. No
24:28
Speaker 5: adult complained. There wasn't one patron. I love using that
24:33
Speaker 5: word patron at these clubs. It was like, I can't
24:37
Speaker 5: like they knew the sick humor in Lady Bridge. This
24:39
Speaker 5: is what we want to see this is what we
24:41
Speaker 5: want to hear and expand our minds a little bit.
24:44
Speaker 5: We may be a fact we can handle it. So
24:47
Speaker 5: it was just just try to think of that, you
24:49
Speaker 5: guys of a time not that long ago. I mean,
24:53
Speaker 5: you know, I was born in fifty nine, so it's
24:55
Speaker 5: not it's in my lifetime. When police would come into
24:59
Speaker 5: an an establishment and arrest somebody for using language that's insane.
25:05
Speaker 1: They were also undercover police, is that correct, Like they
25:08
Speaker 1: were there in playing clothes or something.
25:10
Speaker 5: Yeah. Sometimes, I mean the one in Chicago is hilarious,
25:13
Speaker 5: and because there's a recording of it and he's talking
25:17
Speaker 5: about the cop he sees them over there, and then
25:19
Speaker 5: he says something and then the cop literally says okay,
25:22
Speaker 5: folks shows over, you know, like the cliche, and he
25:26
Speaker 5: gets arrested. Then they just shut it down.
25:29
Speaker 3: Well, and here's the thing too, they actually this was
25:31
Speaker 3: on the book.
25:31
Speaker 4: So in New York when he got arrested, it was
25:34
Speaker 4: because of something called Penal Code eleven forty dash A
25:38
Speaker 4: and this is this is the language of this. It
25:40
Speaker 4: prohibited something they referred to as quote obscene, indecent, immoral,
25:45
Speaker 4: and impure drama. I assume that means drama, play, exhibition,
25:50
Speaker 4: and entertainment, which would tend to the corruption of the
25:53
Speaker 4: morals of youth and others for you, and then you know,
25:57
Speaker 4: this is so broad, This is such incredibly broad language,
26:00
Speaker 4: the corruption of youth and others.
26:03
Speaker 3: And it's like, who's asking for this?
26:04
Speaker 1: But it's also it's it's also part of the hypocrisy
26:08
Speaker 1: of the American legal system. That's an historic thing. It
26:11
Speaker 1: goes to any form of language or communication, like the photographs, yeah,
26:17
Speaker 1: or like the James Joyce ulysses, which all right went
26:20
Speaker 1: to the courts on the basis of being what pornography
26:24
Speaker 1: and the ultimate ruling was I know it when I see.
26:27
Speaker 5: It, right, right, So this is a very slipper. Now again,
26:30
Speaker 5: I want to talk about all of these issues, including
26:34
Speaker 5: motion pictures what's going on with them as well. But
26:37
Speaker 5: the point you're making is youth and others. Was that
26:41
Speaker 5: the language was it? The youth and others?
26:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, the corruption of the morals of youth and others.
26:48
Speaker 4: So what does this even mean? Who's asking for this?
26:50
Speaker 4: Where is this coming from? What are your what are
26:52
Speaker 4: your thoughts?
26:52
Speaker 5: I will tell you where it's coming from. There used
26:55
Speaker 5: to be something called community standards, and that was basically saying,
27:00
Speaker 5: in this community, we don't want a certain kind of
27:03
Speaker 5: film here, and we don't want a certain kind of
27:05
Speaker 5: entertainment here. And there was it was a lot of
27:09
Speaker 5: it was, believe it or not, the Catholic League would
27:13
Speaker 5: have their own board which would decide would rate movies
27:17
Speaker 5: and get the Catholic Board didn't this let your movie
27:21
Speaker 5: come into your town. It didn't come into your town.
27:23
Speaker 5: And you know, and that's how the politicians stayed in power.
27:26
Speaker 5: And that's how these penal codes, including the one you
27:29
Speaker 5: just read eleven what was the number.
27:31
Speaker 3: Eleven forty dash A.
27:33
Speaker 5: Yeah, I always think of eleven forty dash B. But
27:35
Speaker 5: I always get that wrong. I always get that wrong.
27:37
Speaker 5: Now that's fair enough. Fair why I'm not teaching at Yale.
27:39
Speaker 5: That's why I'm not at an Ivy League school right there.
27:43
Speaker 5: So that's that was going on in the United States.
27:48
Speaker 5: Even when I was a kid. There was something called
27:49
Speaker 5: the Catholic League that would like, no, you can't have
27:53
Speaker 5: this coming, this movie come in here. So that only
27:56
Speaker 5: changed really in nineteen sixty eight when they started the
27:59
Speaker 5: movie rating system. So before then, I don't know, this
28:03
Speaker 5: is incredible. Just it's a sidebar, but I think it's interesting.
28:06
Speaker 5: It's a few years, maybe eight years after Lenny Bruce
28:09
Speaker 5: gets arrested. A lot is uh. You know, they put
28:11
Speaker 5: in these rating systems. So now the first movie to
28:15
Speaker 5: ever be raped to win Best Picture is a G
28:18
Speaker 5: rated movie. The only one a g rated movie called Oliver.
28:21
Speaker 5: The next year, sixty nine, an X rated movie wins
28:25
Speaker 5: Best Picture.
28:26
Speaker 1: What was it?
28:26
Speaker 5: That's you know, John Lloyd, Everybody's talking, which is funny.
28:33
Speaker 5: It's now been re rated. It's now been rerated.
28:36
Speaker 3: Dustin Hoffman is in that.
28:37
Speaker 4: And Dustin Hoffman plays Lenny Bruce in the movie Lenny's
28:40
Speaker 4: so full circle.
28:41
Speaker 5: It's all one big thing. It's all. But I'm just
28:43
Speaker 5: saying that sort of opened up the world for a
28:46
Speaker 5: lot of moviegoers, especially in small towns in America, because
28:49
Speaker 5: now they could see a movie that the Catholic League
28:52
Speaker 5: didn't deem, you know, immoral for this community, these community standards.
28:58
Speaker 5: So anyway, I just want to give an overview of
29:00
Speaker 5: like why these penal codes were on the books. It
29:04
Speaker 5: just it just gave them a legal reason to shut
29:06
Speaker 5: down a movie or something like that.
29:08
Speaker 4: Oh and it's crazy and we take all that for granted.
29:10
Speaker 4: These days, I mean, it's so easy to not appreciate
29:13
Speaker 4: the fact that I can go watch anything I want
29:15
Speaker 4: on Netflix or you know, in the in the theater,
29:18
Speaker 4: that I can see dirty stuff.
29:20
Speaker 1: Well, people still do slide back into moral panics on
29:23
Speaker 1: a cyclical basis.
29:24
Speaker 4: Oh absolutely sure.
29:26
Speaker 5: Here well, oh.
29:27
Speaker 1: So, for example, we will see the same kind of
29:31
Speaker 1: moral panic of rock music polluting the hearts and minds
29:36
Speaker 1: of young children because the beat is a little too bouncy,
29:40
Speaker 1: that's right.
29:40
Speaker 4: I mean there was even all that tip or Gore
29:41
Speaker 4: stuff with the parental advisory stickers and like rap music
29:44
Speaker 4: and Marilyn Manson and all that stuff. So absolutely it
29:46
Speaker 4: seems like that stuff goes in cycles. But ultimately I
29:50
Speaker 4: feel like as a as a culture, we're pretty free
29:53
Speaker 4: still to explore whatever you know, tickles our fancy.
29:56
Speaker 3: As far as arts concerned.
29:57
Speaker 1: I would advance. We are making progress, especially like as
30:01
Speaker 1: a country, we're making progress. But what a lot of
30:04
Speaker 1: people don't know is that this was a hard one
30:07
Speaker 1: road and that it was uphill for a lot of
30:10
Speaker 1: the ways.
30:11
Speaker 5: And that's why we're still talking about Lenny Bruce.
30:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no.
30:15
Speaker 5: That's really more than any comedy bit he did, any
30:19
Speaker 5: you know, any of those bits which were wonderful. But
30:23
Speaker 5: I think that's the reason, you know he's number three
30:25
Speaker 5: on the Rolling Stones' Greatest Comedians of All Time or
30:28
Speaker 5: something like that, is that's the reason.
30:31
Speaker 4: Well, and there's that rim lyric and the end of
30:33
Speaker 4: the world as we know at Lenny Bruce is not afraid,
30:35
Speaker 4: and I think that's a very important way of looking
30:37
Speaker 4: at him. He kind of boldly went and boldly did
30:40
Speaker 4: not give a fuck about what was going to happen
30:44
Speaker 4: to him as far as the law was concerned. And
30:46
Speaker 4: that's why I think maybe overstated the case at the
30:48
Speaker 4: top of the show about comedians as truth tellers and
30:51
Speaker 4: maybe it's not something they're intending to do at the time.
30:53
Speaker 4: Maybe he's just speaking his truth and that's because he
30:56
Speaker 4: thinks it's funny, but removed from the time, and you know,
30:59
Speaker 4: with his tragic end and all of this court case
31:02
Speaker 4: and all these court cases, you can't help but think
31:05
Speaker 4: that he was kind of paving the way for this
31:06
Speaker 4: kind of free speech and being able to say whatever's
31:08
Speaker 4: on your mind and not be persecuted for I think.
31:10
Speaker 1: That's what I think you encapsulated it very well there, Wayne,
31:15
Speaker 1: because also he's saying things that everybody knows but no
31:21
Speaker 1: one is saying in public.
31:23
Speaker 5: You know, that's part the hypocrisy of it all, like
31:26
Speaker 5: we've never heard these words.
31:29
Speaker 1: And speaking of words, ay, yes, seven in particular, right,
31:34
Speaker 1: Holy no, No, this is just kind of off to
31:37
Speaker 1: the side for us. But at this point in the
31:39
Speaker 1: interview things are really heat. No, this is going well to.
31:42
Speaker 4: Hot hot MIC's hot mike, only not a hot mic
31:45
Speaker 4: on this particular installment because due to a technical difficulty,
31:49
Speaker 4: my mic was not properly on, so you're hearing my
31:52
Speaker 4: voice through Ben's mike or an adjacent mike. But we
31:54
Speaker 4: assure you for part two of this series, my mic
31:57
Speaker 4: will be on.
31:58
Speaker 1: And we thought this interview is fantastic enough that we
32:02
Speaker 1: wanted to preserve it for posterity. So thank you for
32:06
Speaker 1: checking this out. This is a rare two parter for us.
32:09
Speaker 1: Have we ever done a concurrent two partner? Now this
32:12
Speaker 1: is a first for us. Then we're very excited and
32:15
Speaker 1: we hope that you tune in for the second part
32:18
Speaker 1: of this series, wherein we explore the story of another
32:22
Speaker 1: controversial comedian whose case eventually went all the way to
32:27
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court.
32:29
Speaker 3: I can't wait.
32:30
Speaker 4: In the meantime, we'd like to thank our super producer
32:32
Speaker 4: Paul deccant. Guest superroducer Paul deccan, our super producer in spirit,
32:36
Speaker 4: Casey Pegram, He's always with us.
32:38
Speaker 3: We have to thank Alex Williams who composed our theme.
32:41
Speaker 1: We'd like to thank Eves, Jeffcote and Christopher Hasiotis our
32:44
Speaker 1: crack team of research associates. We of course would like
32:47
Speaker 1: to thank Wayne Fetterman, but you'll hear us do that
32:50
Speaker 1: plenty in the second episode. And Noel, you know what man, Thank.
32:54
Speaker 3: You, yeah man, thank you did.
33:03
Speaker 4: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
33:07
Speaker 4: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.