Latest / Sarah Knows Support Workers / NDIS Provider Marketing & Growth Strategy: What's Actually Working in Australia Right Now | Chris Lapa

Transcript

NDIS Provider Marketing & Growth Strategy: What's Actually Working in Australia Right Now | Chris Lapa · Sarah Knows Support Workers

• 0:00
  Everyone, it's Sarah from the Support Worker store today.
• 0:02
  I've got Chris from the Growth Academy.
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  Hi, Chris, how you going? Sarah, I'm fantastic.
• 0:08
  Thanks for having me. How are you?
• 0:10
  Fantastic. I was actually really excited
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  about having you on, to be honest, because I've actually
• 0:15
  seen you talk in person before. So the fact that I've got you
• 0:18
  here on the podcast today I'm pretty thrilled about.
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  So thank you so much. Oh, awesome.
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  So I'm going to get right into it.
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  Tell us a little bit about yourself.
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  Look, the abridged version is I've lived and breathed
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  businesses and marketing for about 15 years.
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  Truth be told is longer than that.
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  My mum's been an accountant, small time bookkeeper, my dad's
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  run businesses, you know, so I've seen things first hand for
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  a long, long time. And then I went and did my
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  degree in business and majored in marketing, went over to the
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  US and learned about social media and social media ads over
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  10 years ago now when it was taking off in Australia.
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  So that was sort of a rite of passage into the landscape that
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  I work in a lot now and gave me a lot of opportunity.
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  So throughout my career I've worked in marketing teams for
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  some big brands in Australia, a Channel 9 in a digital arm,
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  Southern Cross Stereo. And then I worked in marketing
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  agencies for quite some time. And that really helped
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  foundation of knowledge on all marketing channels and the
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  expertise that's required across all the different ones and
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  helped me find my niche as a strategist and just brought a,
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  you know, sort of being a people person, managing clients,
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  supporting them on their growth journeys and knowing who to lean
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  on when we need those better strategies.
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  And yeah, I guess the last couple of years I've landed in
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  the NDIS sort of by design, but by chance as well.
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  So yeah, it's been a really good last couple of years.
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  And I got to the point in my career before the NDIS where I
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  was not overly enjoying doing marketing for brands I wasn't
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  passionate about anymore. And I wanted to use my powers
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  for good, if you will. And just so happens that I found
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  out the NDIS was an industry where there's a lot of heart and
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  lot of opportunity for providers to develop their skills in
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  growth, marketing, sales, all of those sorts of areas.
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  So yeah, kind of combined my love of wanting to work for
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  brands that are doing good and the skills that I have and
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  hopefully simplify it and help people.
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  Yep. So you based in Sydney or
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  because of your reach, are you everywhere?
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  Physically I'm actually north of Sydney on the Central Coast.
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  Grew up here and love it here but yeah, due to the nature of
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  what I do, I can reach. I have clients all over
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  Australia. Yeah.
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  So I want to go back to that part because I when you were
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  talking, you were talking about that you got into marketing
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  because roughly you have family members that are in business
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  space. Did you have that burning desire
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  to be an entrepreneur in that way or a business owner?
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  I don't know that I was the typical lemonade stand kid at 10
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  years old burning desire entrepreneur.
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  That sounds almost obligatory to claim, but I was always
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  interested in business. You know, business makes the
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  world go round and employs a lot of people, creates a lot of
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  opportunities. So I was always curious about
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  business, even back to, you know, and I took business
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  studies and we did our first kind of project around building
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  a hotel under the sea, like a big concept.
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  And then we had to be able to go to market plan.
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  And it was certainly one of my favorite courses at school.
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  And then, yeah, throughout the years, I've just loved the
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  process of understanding businesses, what makes them tick
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  and all the opportunities that every business owner is missing
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  out on, which is I just want to share the knowledge and, and
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  help people and enjoy doing it. So how?
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  So when you were talking about your, your career progression
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  and stuff, you talked about that you started in some NDIS aged
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  care businesses. And is that what was the one
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  before that you got to the growth Academy?
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  Because you didn't just one wake, woke up one day and
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  thought, you know what, I'm going to open the growth
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  Academy. Was it the business beforehand
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  that grew you into the growth? My background has led me to the
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  skills I have to build the Growth Academy.
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  So again, having so much knowledge across all marketing
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  channels has allowed me to have conversations with any business
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  owner around before we pick a channel, let's do a bit of
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  groundwork and understand where our customers are and all of
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  that. And so the Growth Academy for me
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  is a way to educate business owners.
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  And it just so happens that the job I had after I left Agency
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  Land was for a provider and it combined a couple of things of 1
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  was marketing, 2 was health and fitness, and three was I learned
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  to love more and more with the NDIS space.
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  And so that was at a company called We Flex with a guy called
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  Tommy Trout, who is a very near and dear friend of mine at the
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  time. He had a really killer brand,
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  but no idea per SE. And he won't mind me saying that
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  the marketing wasn't doing as well as it could have.
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  And so he put a desperate play out on LinkedIn for a marketing
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  manager and to a friend of a friend.
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  That's how I found out about it, found out the great things they
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  were doing. And yeah, I guess the rest is
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  history around my space and my time in in the NDIS space.
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  And then sort of progressing a little bit further.
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  Tommy and I both left. Tommy sold.
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  He's part of the business there. And I left.
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  And then through that, had a lot of connections with the likes of
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  Tanya Gomez and a few other big people in the industry.
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  Went on the road, went to Seal Summit and did a few things.
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  And yeah, few people liked what I was talking about.
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  And I got the chance to work with more and more providers.
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  That's cool because it to be honest with you.
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  So I've been in the support workers store.
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  I started with Instagram 1st and I will say it was a very hard
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  market, this market to get the attention of people.
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  And I know that each platform has a different audience and all
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  that stuff and adapting stuff. So it isn't easy.
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  It can be taught because I do fail a few times and I that I'm
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  I'm happy to admit. But when you get a provider that
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  comes into you and they want to market their stuff, is there a
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  preferred platform for them in this sector?
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  Or is it what works? Like how do you help a a company
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  or provider I should say find the right social platform for
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  them. Look, there's some loose rules
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  around what platforms do or what they're there for.
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  You know, Google Ads is really good for people actively looking
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  for a solution. So if someone's Googling for a
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  support worker in a specific location and your website's not
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  showing up, that's some low hanging fruit, right?
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  And so if we jump on and your website's not there and we know
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  that people are looking, well, why not put some ads together on
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  Google to make sure you show up pretty quick before we build a
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  bit of a long term SEO play or whatever.
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  With social media, the the very top level idea is it basically
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  replaces TV and radio in my eyes in many ways.
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  Yeah, from a cost perspective specifically, you know, TV and
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  radio were the mechanisms for many years to broadcast your
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  message, but now social media makes that a lot quicker and
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  easier and. It's something really cool the
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  other day and it said that instead of calling it social
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  media, it really should just be called media because all your
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  content practically is media driven.
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  Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's there's a guy in the industry or
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  the broader marketing landscape called Gary Vaynerchuk or Gary
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  Vee. Hate him or love him, but he's
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  got some good ideas and he's talking about the change in
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  social media and now becoming just a media platform.
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  It's purely, you know, not as much about staying connected
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  with friends and family. It's more about just consuming
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  hours of content, often aimlessly.
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  But nonetheless, it's an entertainment platform.
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  It's a media platform. Rather than watch 30 minutes of
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  television, you can easily scroll for 30 minutes on social
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  media, that's for sure. So to go back to your question
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  earlier, when any provider comes to me, it's all about
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  understanding their growth goals.
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  And that sounds very cliche, but I want to take them through that
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  process and I want to help them build foundational thinking
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  around marketing is not just an overnight thing.
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  Growth is not an overnight thing.
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  Let's put a plan in place. Of course, we definitely want to
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  look for some quick wins. We want to look for some
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  opportunities that maybe we can turn some Google ads on to
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  quickly get you present, or maybe there's a Facebook group
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  you can join, or maybe there's a LinkedIn strategy to get you
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  some more referrals quickly. But we've got to look long term
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  and then also pair that with understanding your customer or
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  your audience. And unlike any other industry
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  I've worked in, there's so many stakeholders involved in the
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  decision making of one person. You know, if I want to go and
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  buy a pair of shoes, truth be told, it's my partner who looks
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  1st and then tells me that they're there because I'm, I
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  hate shopping. But generally it's one, it's one
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  person, right? You decide you want a pair of
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  shoes, you Google it or you go and have a look online somewhere
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  or a brand, you know, and you click and you might think about
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  it or discuss it with your partner from a budget, but
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  that's about it. Whereas we know there's so many
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  stakeholders involved, There's coordinators, there's support
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  workers, there's allied health therapists, there's parents, the
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  list goes on. And so you know, I'd, I'd always
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  encourage providers to think about where is their customer
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  coming from? Are they always getting them
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  from support coordinators? That's a whole different
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  strategy from a platform to the messaging to the creative.
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  So if you need more support coordinators in your corner,
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  although you're looking for participants, it's a whole
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  different strategy. And it's really important to
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  think about that. You know, and and conversely,
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  there's people out there saying all you need is LinkedIn
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  referrals. Well, that's one part of it.
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  Yeah. But is 65 or 70 years old making
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  decisions for her daughter or her son?
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  Who's the 30 or 40? They're still in Facebook
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  groups, they're still at local charity events, they're still
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  at. So there's such a land.
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  So much to consider. Don't forget the ITA board.
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  Yeah, exactly. Right, Exactly.
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  You're spot on. But we're not fully tech.
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  We're not fully tech yet. You know, there's still people
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  out there grabbing pamphlets from a local news agent and all
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  of those things. And quite often, they're the
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  ones that need disability supports for themselves or their
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  children. I do get this question quite a
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  bit. Where would you go?
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  And I'd say go where the people go, whether it be in a doctor's
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  clinic, whether it be at the physiotherapist, whether it be
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  at the speechy, putting your pamphlets, your cards, they're
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  still viable in this right now. Even your local library,
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  sticking it on the board. It doesn't have to look all on
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  social media because LinkedIn, like you said, because I look, I
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  love LinkedIn, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't feed all
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  of my audience and the people that I'm after because not all
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  support workers are on LinkedIn. And that's, and then my content
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  for LinkedIn is completely different to what's on
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  Instagram, correct? Yeah, spot on.
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  And you and you said the most important thing where go where
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  your people are. And then the next thing is if
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  you don't know where they are, let's start there.
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  Let's go and think about your customer.
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  Walk a mile in their shoes, think about where they're
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  sourcing their information. Where are they in their
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  diagnosis? Is it early diagnosis?
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  Have they been dealing with it for years?
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  Has it been a catastrophic injury that's led to a an
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  acquired brain injury? Because they're all different
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  scenarios. And so Facebook ads or Google
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  ads, they're just pieces of the puzzle that you have to put
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  together by first understanding your customer.
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  Yeah. If you're, if you're wanting to
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  get support coordinators and you're right, you need to be
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  present on Google because the 1st place is what coordinator
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  goes. They look for the suburb Pascot
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  Vale support workers and then that is what will come up.
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  So that in that ranking there 100% more important than what I
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  could post on say, Instagram, because it doesn't mean that
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  I'll get the reach that I need to get to that Pascoe Vale
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  support workers and such. I agree, but also not every like
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  for I know for the audience that I serve, not all support workers
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  are on LinkedIn. So it really is difficult to
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  find it. But also, I don't know whether
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  you do the same. But when people ask me about
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  this, I talk about doing one platform really well to begin
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  with and then expanding yourself.
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  Because it's really easy to get burnt out because in the
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  beginning a lot of people don't like your content or they don't
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  like your marketing. You kind of suffer a bit until
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  you improve. Yeah, 100%.
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  I'm a big believer in, you know, I'm a big believer in choosing
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  one platform, doing it well, and then moving through.
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  And so for me, we've had this discussion.
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  I've not expanded my brand to Instagram or LinkedIn.
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  I mean, sorry, Instagram or Facebook just yet because I have
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  more than enough opportunity through LinkedIn.
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  I haven't needed to bolt on the next platform because it's
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  another thing for me to manage. Sure, I can just publish the
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  same content, but I just haven't needed and this is the whole
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  thing is what is your growth goal?
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  How? Cool's.
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  That and for me I will, sorry. How cool's that, that you
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  haven't needed to expand? You've got enough for just one
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  platform. That's the lie that you have to
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  spread yourself so thin. But really, if you're doing it
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  really well, you don't have to expand that far like who does
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  do. Well done.
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  No, thank you. And look, if if you were to ask
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  me my marketing platforms, it would be LinkedIn.
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  It would be live events and doing good jobs, which means I
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  get referrals from my clients. They're the three things right
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  now that I've focused on and they've been enough for me.
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  I now have plans to do other things which we'll talk about,
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  which then will force me to go and do more on Instagram or more
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  on other platforms, more, better e-mail marketing, nurture
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  sequences, all of that kind of sophisticated stuff.
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  So you've worked with a variety of different people.
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  Yeah, Yeah, there is. There certainly is.
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  One of the most notable elements of being with a larger provider
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  is we have more budget to play with, which they're also chasing
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  more leads and they need more clients to keep their business
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  moving. And versus a smaller provider,
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  they might only need a few new customers or or participants to
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  support and that keeps them going for the next 6 months.
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  And again, if they run a sill house, they might only need 2
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  participants and then they're good for a minute.
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  And so those smaller providers have the ability of being more
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  nimble and more relationship based, but the larger providers
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  need to start building scalable systems with more sophisticated
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  marketing campaigns, more sophisticated emails and sales
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  management processes. So there's certainly a
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  difference. And you know, I love the outage
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  of what got you here. Won't get you there, right?
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  Yeah. And so it's all about those
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  growing pains. And as you get to the next
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  level, you need to implement new systems, new marketing, new
• 15:52
  growth strategies. You'll need to invest more.
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  You can't afford personally to go and be at every networking
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  event anymore because you've got to be running the business
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  versus if you're a whole and sole trader, you just go and
• 16:04
  knock on doors and shake hands and kiss babies and you'll get a
• 16:08
  few new customers. So there's, there's certainly
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  different strategies for different sizes of clients.
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  Yeah, sure. Sorry, you're right.
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  I don't want to be going around kissing other people's babies,
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  but it is more than one thing. And marketing isn't just online,
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  it is in person as well and how you market yourself.
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  What I have learnt in this journey so far is that when I am
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  marketing in person and the way that I network with people, I've
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  had to work on that part there because I feel like I got one
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  part sorted. It was, you know, explaining my
• 16:38
  story, the reason why I have the support worker store, the whys
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  behind it and why, you know, I think that this would be a
• 16:44
  really good relationship for us to work together.
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  That has probably been the hardest part for me.
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  I'd dare say like that part there because it's selling
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  yourself where I'm so used to supporting people.
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  So at the current market, you said that there are some really
• 16:58
  big challenges that NDIS businesses have that come
• 17:02
  across. Is there something in particular
• 17:04
  that they all seem to have? Like is it a lot of the Google
• 17:07
  stuff? Because from what I can gather,
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  it's that landing page more than anything.
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  The biggest challenge is, look, the thing that I see most
• 17:15
  commonly from an internal operation perspective for every
• 17:19
  provider is they actually, they, they have an adverse reaction to
• 17:24
  the idea of a structured sales process.
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  And what I want to encourage providers to do is to embrace
• 17:31
  the idea that you just have to inquire, sorry, manage those
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  inquiries Well, yes. And so again, if we think about
• 17:39
  the life of a mum, for example, with three kids, maybe one or
• 17:44
  two maybe on the spectrum, yeah, you and then you may have one
• 17:48
  that's even high level needs, which is a job in and of itself.
• 17:53
  And so, you know, if you're at your wit's end at 11:00 on a
• 17:57
  Sunday night and you're just feeling desperate and you need
• 18:00
  some help and you go make an inquiry because you've just
• 18:03
  Googled something, tomorrow you could wake up and the whole
• 18:07
  world crumbles down again. Everything goes out the window,
• 18:09
  your routine, your plans, and all of a sudden you blink in a
• 18:12
  week's gone by. Now, if a provider only wants in
• 18:16
  that way, I believe they're actually doing the mom a
• 18:19
  disservice by not giving her a chance to be heard on her time.
• 18:23
  And so if you call her a few times, you may just get her at
• 18:26
  the right time. Or if you decide actually phone
• 18:29
  calls aren't the best approach, let's send a text first, you
• 18:33
  know? Hi, Sarah, it's Chris from XYZ
• 18:35
  Support. I know life can be a little
• 18:38
  crazy. I'm just shooting you a text to
• 18:40
  let you know I'm here when you're ready.
• 18:41
  We've received your inquiry. I'll try and give you a call
• 18:44
  again tomorrow. That's not, that's not pressure
• 18:48
  tactics, that's just making her life a bit easier.
• 18:50
  She needs help. And so having a good structured
• 18:54
  process just helps everyone, helps mom get the support she
• 18:58
  needs, gives her a chance to answer the phone when it suits
• 19:02
  her. If you call her a few times, it
• 19:04
  gives you guys a chance to help that person because you believe
• 19:07
  you're the best fit. So one of the biggest
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  opportunities for every provider, I believe, is having a
• 19:12
  better structured inquiry process and being OK with trying
• 19:17
  a few new methods of connection with that parent or that inquiry
• 19:22
  and knowing that you're just helping, you're trying to help,
• 19:25
  you're not trying to apply pressure tactics.
• 19:27
  Well, you're going to like this one.
• 19:28
  I agree with you completely. What I had was actually a
• 19:33
  communication list that I would go through when I'd get a new
• 19:36
  person come in to service and I would go through the list of
• 19:40
  have I contacted them? What questions will I ask?
• 19:42
  Because the aim of the game was to get into contact very quickly
• 19:46
  with them to say that, you know, I am very interested in being
• 19:49
  your provider. And but also in that
• 19:51
  conversation I could also filter whether I was going to be the
• 19:54
  best provider for them or not. And then giving them that
• 19:57
  feedback saying right, I don't offer XY and Z.
• 20:01
  However, I can refer you to Harry down the road because he
• 20:04
  does a better job of working with people with complex
• 20:07
  medical, those type of things. It is about getting it in
• 20:10
  quickly. Figuring out whether you can be
• 20:13
  the best provider and if you can't refer, if you can start
• 20:18
  the intake process with them. It's making it really easy and
• 20:21
  simple and being really approachable that the person
• 20:24
  that's texting is actually the person that they can call.
• 20:26
  Having that one person, multiple people, confuses people, text
• 20:30
  messages, emails, fantastic, but it doesn't always land.
• 20:33
  I am, I am a phone caller person.
• 20:35
  I'll be honest with you because I feel like communication with
• 20:38
  words and you can hear the reaction, you can hear the
• 20:41
  response, you can hear how somebody feel.
• 20:43
  You can feel that type of stuff over a phone.
• 20:45
  I don't think you can get that in an e-mail.
• 20:47
  I feel like it's called. Yeah, and it and it's just
• 20:51
  about, again, your customer, every person's different.
• 20:55
  You could have a 60 year old inquiring one day and a 20 year
• 20:58
  old inquiring the next day. Yeah, the method of
• 21:01
  communication, them, their interests, all of those things
• 21:05
  are different. And so you need to adapt.
• 21:09
  And so having a process where you just handle all inquiries
• 21:13
  through the admin person at the front desk or whoever it gets to
• 21:17
  them whenever it suits them on that day isn't enough.
• 21:20
  I think there just needs to be more confidence and
• 21:23
  understanding about how to get better connection rates and get
• 21:27
  in touch with people and either get them on quicker or move them
• 21:31
  on quicker to the right supports.
• 21:33
  And we went through the same thing at Wayflex.
• 21:35
  We used to send people a link to do the onboarding thing, and it
• 21:38
  just was falling away because life happens, right?
• 21:42
  And so we've found actually, if we get them on the phone and do
• 21:45
  it with them, it's a much faster process and it wins for
• 21:50
  everyone. Yeah, it's convenient for them,
• 21:52
  convenient for the business. Everyone wins to get supports
• 21:56
  quicker. It might be that the forms
• 21:58
  itself are really hard for them to access and to enter in, but
• 22:01
  we've got to bear in mind that, you know, we work in the
• 22:04
  disability sector and it might also be that the family
• 22:07
  supporting them might have disabilities that cannot assist
• 22:10
  them to get through the onboarding process.
• 22:12
  So to make it wherever easy for to me to be honest, I like to
• 22:16
  turn up and do meet and greets and meet people as well and go
• 22:19
  through the process with them. Because I'd hate to think that
• 22:21
  people were doing forms and filling in intakes and yet they
• 22:25
  couldn't understand the questions that were asked in,
• 22:28
  you know, provider land because that would be quite overwhelming
• 22:32
  because they're not designed to be easy to read and fill in.
• 22:36
  They're designed to be quite thick to make sure that when we
• 22:40
  are on boarding people into and provide a land, we've got as
• 22:43
  much detail as possible so we can serve the best way possible.
• 22:47
  But it doesn't always match the people that we serve.
• 22:49
  I get that 100%, yeah. So anybody that's new in their
• 22:53
  sector, any new businesses would be one of the best point of
• 22:57
  calls is to get into touch with you straight away or should they
• 23:01
  be be in their build business for a little while and build
• 23:04
  their feet before they decide to tackle marketing?
• 23:08
  So short answer is there's a few ways to approach this.
• 23:13
  So if you're new in business, first and foremost educate
• 23:16
  yourself. Educate yourself on basic
• 23:20
  marketing foundations, things like if I run a campaign, how
• 23:25
  much can I afford to pay to acquire a customer?
• 23:29
  Things like that. Because you can start to learn.
• 23:32
  While you're learning and understanding that, I would also
• 23:35
  encourage the best points of marketing to start with is
• 23:39
  networking. Yes.
• 23:40
  And I read something the other day, I think it might have been
• 23:44
  Tanya, that said the NDIS is unlike any other industry of how
• 23:49
  willing everyone is to refer to one another.
• 23:51
  Yeah, it's not a competitive landscape.
• 23:54
  Now, I still believe we still need to consider each other as
• 23:57
  competitors in some degree, but we'll talk about that later.
• 24:01
  But I would encourage people to go and make and greet.
• 24:05
  Go to networking events, meet your kind of people, strike up
• 24:09
  conversations, create lasting relationships, introduce
• 24:13
  yourself. Another thing you should do
• 24:15
  early on is really understand how to, I guess, sell yourself
• 24:19
  like you mentioned, yeah, but do it in a way that's not about
• 24:23
  you. It's doing it in a way that's
• 24:25
  supporting the other end, the other person.
• 24:27
  And my good friend Tommy Trout talks about what is the outcome
• 24:31
  you want and who is the receiver?
• 24:33
  And so knowing your receiver, if you're walking into a room full
• 24:36
  of support coordinators, understand their world.
• 24:39
  So I want every new provider to think like this first, to think
• 24:43
  if I walk into a room full of support workers versus support
• 24:47
  workers versus allied health, et cetera, they're all different
• 24:51
  people. They're all different personas.
• 24:53
  So the first point of reference from marketing is to learn how
• 24:57
  to identify your customer and what they want, what they need,
• 25:01
  what frustrates them. Yep.
• 25:03
  And that's, that's free. You can Google that.
• 25:05
  You can use chat 2 PT, you can go and do a few online courses
• 25:09
  and learn about that kind of stuff because that will help you
• 25:12
  get better results for your networking because it actually
• 25:16
  shows you understand the person in front of you.
• 25:18
  You've thought about the person and it's not about you.
• 25:21
  It's not about you. And introducing yourself and how
• 25:23
  much capacity you have must be a good person.
• 25:26
  Ask them about their world. What worked for me with
• 25:29
  especially when it came to support coordinators, I wanted
• 25:33
  to know their pain points. I wanted to know who was on
• 25:36
  their list at this point in time isn't happy and whether I could
• 25:41
  feel that and help that or not. And if I couldn't, I would refer
• 25:45
  them to have provided that court or an independent.
• 25:47
  My aim for all networking when it came to provider land was me
• 25:51
  to figure out who are the support coordinators that have
• 25:54
  got pain, who can I help? And then if I knew their niche
• 25:57
  as well, because their support coordinators that I knew that I
• 26:00
  could work with because their niche meant that I would get me
• 26:04
  in front of the eyes of participants, that I knew that I
• 26:07
  could serve perfect. And to be honest, all I really
• 26:10
  needed was probably two or three really good support coordinators
• 26:14
  and the rest just came. And they came because it was
• 26:17
  word of mouth. They came because I got referred
• 26:19
  because that support coordinator said that Sarah knew how to do
• 26:22
  XY and Z and had support workers that could do so.
• 26:25
  There is a way to do it when it comes to networking, but this
• 26:29
  isn't a skill that happened overnight.
• 26:31
  This is a skill that was learnt and it took time to learn to get
• 26:35
  to that skill. It wasn't something that I was,
• 26:38
  I was naturally born with. I think for me, when it came to
• 26:41
  networking, at the beginning I was a big watcher and I watched
• 26:45
  and you know, read the room trying to figure out how I
• 26:48
  could, you know, put myself out there.
• 26:49
  Because it is very difficult in this sector to get that type of
• 26:52
  training, that type of how to pitch yourself in a way that
• 26:57
  isn't going to annoy the crap out of the next person.
• 27:00
  And you feel sadly and sleazy that it just all wants a no
• 27:04
  give. Because when it comes to these
• 27:06
  type of conversations, it's give and take.
• 27:08
  And they've got a, we both have to receive something from this
• 27:11
  conversation, whether it's knowledge or wealth or referral,
• 27:15
  whether it's a multiple things that we could work in the
• 27:17
  future. And that's The funny thing about
• 27:18
  referrals. It's not straight away in that
• 27:20
  conversation. It could be two weeks, six
• 27:23
  months, a year down the track that somebody refers to you.
• 27:27
  So yeah, correct. These type of things to keep in
• 27:29
  mind. Yeah, it's spot on.
• 27:31
  And and that is actually one thing I am working on in the
• 27:34
  background and we'll be working on with Tommy as well, is a
• 27:38
  whole list of resources for providers to get started.
• 27:43
  And it's really around the why, the how and the what.
• 27:47
  And so understanding go and work out how to understand your
• 27:51
  customer. And then I'm going to talk about
• 27:53
  every person, every stakeholder is a different customer.
• 27:56
  And then I want you to go and obsess over their world.
• 27:59
  I want you to go and obsess over, like you said, they're
• 28:02
  pains. You know, one of the one of the
• 28:04
  most crafts, but relevant kind of analogies in marketing is
• 28:09
  twisting the knife. You know, if you imagine there's
• 28:12
  a knife in someone's side and it's the pain, the biggest pain
• 28:15
  in the world, If marketing was able to twist that knife, then
• 28:18
  it really exaggerates. And then you can solve that
• 28:21
  problem and you can show them how to solve that problem.
• 28:24
  And I'm not saying twist the knife in anyone's side, but the
• 28:28
  idea of someone has a paying and for support coordinators,
• 28:32
  they've often got caseloads that are far too big.
• 28:35
  Yes, they're overworked, they're admin heavy.
• 28:38
  You know, they don't want extra work, they want less work.
• 28:42
  They want to help people, but they want to do it with people
• 28:45
  that are good providers. So if you can solve their
• 28:48
  problems by being better at administration, better at follow
• 28:52
  up, better at delivering for your clients, you know they're
• 28:56
  all things that they're going to appreciate.
• 28:58
  One of the things I read the other day was be a pleasure to
• 29:03
  refer to and it's so simple. Just if someone refers you,
• 29:07
  someone go hard and be the best provider they can say in their
• 29:12
  books, but understand their world.
• 29:14
  It's not about you, it's about them.
• 29:17
  I agree. Now you said something that was
• 29:19
  really interesting. See, it sounds like you're up to
• 29:21
  a little bit of mischief and you're creating something in the
• 29:23
  background and the growth Academy.
• 29:25
  Am I are we allowed to talk about it or is it all hash hash
• 29:28
  for now? Yeah, no, we can because then if
• 29:31
  we talk about it, make it happen faster.
• 29:33
  So a couple of things. I'm Tommy and I are pulling
• 29:37
  together. We've just sold out our first
• 29:40
  one, which is a full day workshop of branding and
• 29:43
  marketing. So Tommy's on a mission to make
• 29:45
  providers stand out in the sea of same.
• 29:48
  Too often we're seeing websites and marketing messages that say
• 29:52
  the same thing. We're seeing the same stock
• 29:54
  images. We're seeing the same.
• 29:56
  Yeah, we're saying the same, same stock content on social
• 30:02
  media or on websites, the same messaging on websites.
• 30:07
  You know, what we want to do is take people through a full day
• 30:09
  workshop of understanding more about your brand and and what
• 30:13
  makes you different. And then we want to be able to
• 30:15
  sing it from the rooftop and the right rooftop.
• 30:18
  And what I mean is choosing the right channels, taking that
• 30:21
  customer journey from start to finish and understanding your
• 30:24
  customer better. So then that way, providers will
• 30:27
  walk way with a better understanding of who their brand
• 30:30
  is and what it stands for and what it isn't.
• 30:32
  They're going to know what they can and can't say and how
• 30:34
  willing they are to push the boundaries because we want to
• 30:37
  see people push the boundaries in a fun way.
• 30:39
  And what I mean by that is they're a different brand.
• 30:42
  Stand out. And then we want to make people
• 30:44
  understand their customer and make it about them.
• 30:47
  And then we can go into what marketing channel should we use?
• 30:51
  Well, we know what we're going to say and we know who our
• 30:53
  customer is and we know where they are.
• 30:55
  That makes choosing a marketing channel much better.
• 30:57
  And then we're going to have some fun with some AI tools to
• 31:00
  just help speed things up and loosen the load.
• 31:03
  And then off to the side, I'm also building a range of online
• 31:06
  courses and downloadable kind of products for shortcutting your
• 31:11
  marketing or for those providers that want to get started.
• 31:14
  I am going to build those online tools so you can map your
• 31:17
  customer, you can understand your competitors, you can put a
• 31:22
  bit of a marketing plan together and then we'll talk about if
• 31:26
  you're starting out, here's what I would do if I was a provider
• 31:29
  starting out. If you're scaling, here's what I
• 31:32
  would do. Here's the channels I would look
• 31:34
  at and here's how I would map it out.
• 31:36
  So I'm putting together a bunch of resources in person and
• 31:39
  online to make sales and marketing and and AI and
• 31:44
  technology a lot simpler and easier to understand and
• 31:48
  applicable to the NDIS. That's exciting.
• 31:50
  So we'll all be on through your website.
• 31:52
  Or will it be like what it will come through the Growth Academy
• 31:56
  website or somewhere? Else yes, or it'll be so I'll
• 32:00
  promote it through my website, but it will also be on a like a
• 32:05
  Kajabi platform. So an online learning platform.
• 32:08
  Yep. But if anyone is looking for it,
• 32:11
  hang tight for a little bit longer.
• 32:14
  Dare say by the end of this month we'll have some early,
• 32:17
  early things that we can promote, but you can just go to
• 32:21
  the Growth Academy website and there'll be some pages around
• 32:24
  what it's going to contain, and then they can click off and go
• 32:27
  and look at the different courses and different resources.
• 32:31
  So yeah, I'm excited. It should be that's, that's a
• 32:35
  lot of work. I've done some course creation
• 32:37
  in the past. I can tell you it's a lot of
• 32:39
  work. It's not easy to do because you
• 32:41
  want to be engaging and you want to give enough information.
• 32:45
  So I, I get it and then I find out about you.
• 32:48
  But I found that I was overdoing it.
• 32:50
  Like I went that little bit too far, like with information.
• 32:53
  And I think that's because I really just eagerly just wish to
• 32:56
  serve my audience. But you're doing things in
• 32:59
  person. I believe it.
• 33:00
  Is it next month in Sydney that you're doing?
• 33:03
  Yeah. So that's the the first one with
• 33:05
  Tommy in Sydney in July. So we've sold that one out, the
• 33:08
  first one in Sydney, but we're gonna keep releasing.
• 33:11
  So I'll share with you the links that people can go and register
• 33:15
  their interest. And basically at the moment
• 33:18
  we're keeping it small. We're keeping it to 10 providers
• 33:21
  per daily event just so everyone can actually get some hands on
• 33:25
  experience. And so that's what I was talking
• 33:28
  about earlier is just bringing everyone into a room and it's
• 33:31
  actually pen to paper kind of stuff.
• 33:33
  You're gonna walk away with a custom GPT built in your ChatGPT
• 33:38
  account. So you can use that.
• 33:40
  You're gonna have a custom branding framework or messaging
• 33:44
  framework that you can put into the GPT.
• 33:46
  You're gonna have the customer journey map that is drawn and
• 33:51
  written on and scribbled on. So you can then go and think
• 33:54
  about your customer. You know, we might do 1.
• 33:57
  So we might do a, a participant and their carer, or we might do
• 34:01
  a support coordinator. But then you can go and
• 34:03
  replicate that for every single stakeholder that matters to your
• 34:06
  business. And so it's all those
• 34:08
  foundational things that businesses can grow with.
• 34:12
  And the other thing the, the main, one of the main reasons we
• 34:15
  want to do this is I've seen businesses over the years and
• 34:20
  providers just not getting the most out of people like me,
• 34:26
  people like marketing agencies or marketing managers, because
• 34:31
  they don't have the foundational knowledge to ask the right
• 34:34
  questions. And so we want to give these
• 34:37
  businesses, these providers, these owners, these people, just
• 34:41
  some really strong skills to ask the right questions.
• 34:45
  So if you do outsource to a marketing company or you do
• 34:48
  bring in a marketing assistant, you actually get to know what
• 34:51
  they should be doing and what they should be reporting to you.
• 34:55
  So you're not just in the dark getting an automated report at
• 34:58
  the end of the month or looking at copy and not knowing whether
• 35:01
  it's right, right or wrong, or whether they've considered your
• 35:03
  brand or your tone or whether they're really pushing the
• 35:06
  limits or whether they're just writing more copy.
• 35:08
  That says empowering participants to live life on
• 35:11
  their term. It marketing's fun, like I, I
• 35:14
  don't know you, but like it is. I enjoy it because it is.
• 35:17
  It can be personalized. There is a way to put yourself
• 35:21
  out there as your company and as you think this to do it like
• 35:24
  I've I've had to be self-taught to do everything that I'm doing
• 35:28
  and Mrs. YouTube tutorials. Oh my, yeah, I my tutorial very
• 35:33
  hard, let's just say the least. But from that I have been able
• 35:37
  to learn how to deliver a message because and how often
• 35:41
  you should deliver it and when. I'll give you an example.
• 35:45
  I saw a provider put out an event and I saw it once and that
• 35:49
  was it. It disappeared into the realms
• 35:52
  of marketing. They didn't continue to bring up
• 35:54
  that that event was going on. There was no follow up.
• 35:57
  There was no and on Tuesday, we have this.
• 36:00
  It was, it was just like radio silence.
• 36:02
  When the event came. They didn't get what they wanted
• 36:06
  for the amount of people to attend the event.
• 36:08
  And I think clearly was because that it was only released once
• 36:12
  and it just went silent after that and said that, you know,
• 36:15
  continue messaging that we've got an event, it's coming on,
• 36:19
  we'd like to see you there. Yeah.
• 36:21
  So, yeah, they're all the technical things around
• 36:24
  frequency and consistency and split testing messaging.
• 36:28
  And now there's a whole realm of things that you should do and
• 36:33
  that that is where experts do come in.
• 36:36
  And whether you really motivated, there are a
• 36:39
  percentage of business owners like yourself that are really
• 36:42
  driven to spend hours on YouTube and learn and be self driven and
• 36:47
  do all of those things. Yeah.
• 36:48
  But credit to you, I love it. And that's why I want to bring
• 36:52
  these courses together is kind of like streamline the learning
• 36:56
  and to kind of just pick and choose what I believe to be from
• 36:59
  10 years of working with all business owners and now very
• 37:03
  heavily involved in the NDIS, what I think are the most
• 37:06
  important starting blocks. And that being said, there is a
• 37:09
  point where you still need experts, you still need to rely
• 37:13
  on whether it's an agency or whether it's a outsource
• 37:16
  freelancer or whether it's a internal marketing team.
• 37:20
  You do need to, because as a business owner, you've got five
• 37:24
  other pillars of your business. You've got to think about
• 37:26
  marketing. It's just one.
• 37:27
  You got sales, you got operations, you got accounting,
• 37:31
  finance, you know, the list goes on.
• 37:33
  HR, you got to wear all those hats.
• 37:35
  Yeah. At least if you're a little bit
• 37:36
  educated in marketing, you're stronger and more informed to
• 37:41
  get the most out of your marketing.
• 37:43
  I think that's that part because I've enjoyed creating content
• 37:47
  for people and I've always found that the hardest part to let go
• 37:52
  because I've had quite a I get a thrill out of it because I love
• 37:56
  watching who shares it, where it goes, the commentary.
• 37:59
  I enjoy it. And I thought, Yep, they feel
• 38:01
  that way too. But also just the monitoring
• 38:04
  part. I think what you brought up
• 38:05
  before is how to find the right marketing company for you to do
• 38:10
  it. Yeah, to me, I think that has
• 38:12
  been an absolute struggle. And I'll be honest and it's a
• 38:15
  struggle because my brand is so personalized and it's one of
• 38:19
  those things that you've built for such a long time and the
• 38:21
  idea of somebody else touching what I've what I've built and my
• 38:25
  messaging and all that stuff that that takes a lot to.
• 38:28
  Try bang in my shoes. I rely on other people too.
• 38:33
  Yeah. So how do you source your team?
• 38:35
  Because I take it like as you said, you're a how do you source
• 38:39
  your team? Because with your company, it
• 38:41
  does take a lot of people in different roles.
• 38:43
  Funnily enough, I'm still me and only one or two others and
• 38:47
  that's on purpose. First thing I wanted to do was
• 38:51
  work with some really good providers.
• 38:53
  I'll be honest and say I've had as many conversations about not
• 38:57
  the right provider for me because I still believe there's
• 39:01
  a level of integrity and a level of proper business, particularly
• 39:05
  in this space. And so I've gotten pretty good
• 39:08
  at sensing when people are just in it because they heard you can
• 39:12
  open a few sale homes and make millions.
• 39:17
  And yeah, it, it happens, you know, and so, but for many, what
• 39:23
  helps, and I think this is relevant to providers as well,
• 39:26
  what helps get the right team around you is systemization.
• 39:30
  And that is understanding how to extract everything out of
• 39:33
  yourself and going to this mindset of if I disappeared
• 39:38
  tomorrow, could my business run without me?
• 39:40
  And until you get very comfortable doing that.
• 39:43
  But then when it comes to, for example, personal brand, it's
• 39:46
  about understanding how can you transfer how you think and feel
• 39:50
  to someone else. Yeah.
• 39:52
  And that's through firstly hiring.
• 39:55
  I hire on gut feel. I have a chat with people, I ask
• 39:58
  him a few key questions, but I really get a good sense of if
• 40:02
  they're the right person or not. But then it's about systemizing
• 40:06
  my thinking. And it's really hard, like I'm a
• 40:08
  control freight, but I've got to work out how to.
• 40:12
  And whether that's a conversation with ChatGPT, I
• 40:15
  could sit here for 30 minutes and go, hey, ChatGPT, these are
• 40:19
  all my deepest, darkest thoughts.
• 40:21
  Here's what I'm thinking. Yeah.
• 40:22
  Here's how I transfer this knowledge.
• 40:25
  I wanna bring someone on. Yeah.
• 40:26
  Who's gonna represent me as a person and as a brand?
• 40:30
  Help me come up with something. Bang, JPT will do that now.
• 40:34
  And so, but it all comes down to that system's thinking, how do I
• 40:39
  extract it, document it, hand it over.
• 40:42
  And a good plug on a book that I've got right here, which I'm
• 40:45
  rereading at the moment. Systemology, really, really good
• 40:49
  book. He talks about the critical
• 40:50
  client flow, which is a really cool way to just document the
• 40:54
  whole process from no one's ever heard of you to they've paid you
• 40:59
  money into their existing customers to they're referring
• 41:02
  people. Yeah.
• 41:04
  So does that answer the question?
• 41:06
  There's a lot there now. I, I, I'm a control freak.
• 41:08
  I get it like, and I've found that really hard because I, I
• 41:11
  know I could hire somebody. It's just the idea of letting it
• 41:15
  go because I because yeah, I know that say personal, I know I
• 41:19
  have to leave that part, parts of it.
• 41:21
  No, because I need to focus my energy with with the new build.
• 41:26
  But then I know, yeah, this is more of a counselling for Sarah.
• 41:30
  I know, I know that with the new build.
• 41:32
  That's marketing. I'm a counsellor.
• 41:36
  I, I know with the new build that I'm going to need skill
• 41:39
  sets that are, that are different that I need to focus
• 41:41
  my energy on. And I just, I think because I've
• 41:44
  been so consistent on social media, I don't want to lose that
• 41:48
  pace because there's, I feel like for me, I've got a really
• 41:53
  good pace. It it's very hard if we're
• 41:55
  talking about competition, to compete with me there, yeah.
• 41:57
  Yeah, look, I think two things. The letting go aspect, I don't
• 42:02
  know how to say it other than sometimes you just gotta say
• 42:07
  stuff it. Yeah.
• 42:08
  And roll the dice. Yeah.
• 42:10
  And know that you when I the fall back to that should be that
• 42:15
  you have a bit of a checkbox process in place.
• 42:18
  So for example, if someone was to create content and post it on
• 42:22
  your behalf copywriting wise, so it's not the videos that you
• 42:25
  film personally, it's any other sort of what I'd call filler
• 42:29
  content. So static posts or you know,
• 42:31
  little quotes and quips and stuff like that, right?
• 42:34
  So what you should do is say, OK, again, with the advent of
• 42:38
  technology we have is you go and brain dump everything you want
• 42:41
  to do and not do. Funnily enough, I was working on
• 42:45
  a system today around quality control of content and giving
• 42:50
  ChatGPT guidance on what to do and not do and so you could just
• 42:54
  brain dump that. Then you could have a process
• 42:57
  where the person creating for you creates it all in a
• 43:00
  spreadsheet and you just go through and say yes or no, yes
• 43:03
  or no. And then you just give feedback.
• 43:06
  And then what you do with that feedback is you feed it back
• 43:09
  into your GPT And so then it learns.
• 43:12
  So then in the future you're building this thinking partner
• 43:15
  that does majority of the work for you and it removes you more
• 43:19
  and more. And so you build this system
• 43:21
  around building on learnings and, and you know, there's going
• 43:25
  to be a post here or there that goes out that you hate, Just
• 43:27
  pull it down. As long as it's as long as it's
• 43:29
  not completely bad, but you've cast your eyes over it.
• 43:34
  Love that, Love that. That's great.
• 43:37
  Yeah, you're right. Love that.
• 43:39
  Love that. Yeah.
• 43:40
  Yep. Correct.
• 43:41
  That's OK. Nothing officially booked.
• 43:43
  We've got some wait lists building in I think Brisbane and
• 43:47
  Melbourne. And so again, we're just waiting
• 43:51
  to get enough people that we can validate going essentially.
• 43:56
  And so we're just expressions of interest out there, telling the
• 44:00
  world about it. Tommy and I have both been on
• 44:03
  the road a bit and been sort of shouting it when we're there.
• 44:06
  And so we've got wait lists. And again, I can share that for
• 44:09
  your audience after. And we can.
• 44:11
  Yeah, as soon as we get enough people saying they want us to
• 44:14
  come up and hang out for the day, we'll do it.
• 44:16
  And yeah, we just want to make sure we'll do the first one in
• 44:20
  Sydney and we want to get it right and then we'll build on
• 44:22
  that. We're not trying to make
• 44:24
  millions of it, We're just trying to get to as many
• 44:26
  providers as we can. Yeah, I think one thing I
• 44:34
  definitely want to share is not every business has to have this
• 44:40
  personal brand influence of vibe on social media.
• 44:44
  Look, I definitely think it's important in many ways.
• 44:49
  You know, they're saying the trend now is people buy from
• 44:51
  people, not from brands, right? And there's these comparisons
• 44:55
  getting around that, you know, Elon Musk has a bigger following
• 44:59
  than Tesla or Steve Jobs would have had a bigger following than
• 45:02
  Apple or, you know, so on and so forth.
• 45:05
  But the reality is not every business wants to be like that
• 45:09
  or needs to be like that. And people can still fall in
• 45:12
  love with brands. And the reality is a lot of what
• 45:16
  will happen is a lot of these brands that go personally and
• 45:20
  upcoming full circle because the person burns out.
• 45:23
  They're like, I wish I could step away from my business and
• 45:26
  have it still run without me. And so, you know, again, why I
• 45:31
  called the Growth Academy, The Growth Academy is so it's not
• 45:35
  Chris Larper consulting or something.
• 45:37
  It's a way to be able to scale and to do different things.
• 45:41
  And then I end up just being the founder guy on stage and the
• 45:44
  Growth Academy builds courses and does all of this different
• 45:47
  stuff, still has my heart and soul in it.
• 45:50
  And so these businesses that are scared that they feel like they
• 45:54
  have to start and maybe the face isn't always the situation or
• 45:59
  the reality for whatever reason. If you're scared, if you don't
• 46:02
  like video content, if you're not natural on it and it seems a
• 46:06
  bit cringe, there's only so many sort of cans of glitter we can
• 46:10
  throw on it before it still isn't very pretty.
• 46:13
  The good thing about brand building is you can build a
• 46:16
  whole brand that's independent of someone.
• 46:19
  It can have its own tone, it can have its own voice.
• 46:22
  It can be a little bit more risky or a little bit more safe
• 46:26
  or whatever you want it to be. It can create this alter ego.
• 46:30
  And then the beautiful thing is you can actually build a team
• 46:34
  around it. And so people fall in love with
• 46:37
  the brand. They fall in love with the Apple
• 46:40
  logo, not the Steve Jobs photo, you know?
• 46:43
  And so I want everyone to understand there are basically 2
• 46:47
  paths that can end up leading both to success.
• 46:50
  One is building a really good business brand, One is building
• 46:54
  a really good personal brand. The lines are very blurry these
• 46:57
  days, but I believe you can do both.
• 47:00
  Some will cost more, others won't.
• 47:03
  I believe it's easier to build a personal brand if you're genuine
• 47:06
  and you've got a good story, but not everyone's that good at it.
• 47:10
  Yep, Yep, Yep. And it's OK if you don't want to
• 47:13
  do it. Yeah, Yeah, exactly.
• 47:16
  Yeah, yeah. There's, there's always, there's
• 47:19
  always ways. There's always ways to do it.
• 47:21
  And again, what got you here won't get you there.
• 47:23
  You can always change. Things can evolve.
• 47:26
  And if you're really not comfortable creating video
• 47:28
  content or being the next influencer, talk to someone,
• 47:32
  talk to someone like me or to ChatGPT or whoever and say,
• 47:35
  look, my growth plan is I don't want the business to be centred
• 47:39
  around me. I want it to be centered around
• 47:42
  the team and what we do as a company and our clients.
• 47:46
  Can you give me some advice on how we do that?
• 47:49
  That changes everything and that's OK.
• 47:52
  And you're saying, yeah, absolutely.
• 47:55
  ABS look, don't worry about me and my stuff.
• 47:58
  I think if I was to sum up where I'm at, sorry, if I was to sum
• 48:03
  up what I've seen and what I'm passionate about for the
• 48:07
  industry and providers out there is I want you to learn about
• 48:13
  growth. I want you to learn about the
• 48:15
  different marketing channels, the sales activities, the
• 48:19
  technology you can employ to save time and money.
• 48:23
  There's no denying that the NDIS is running on tight margins
• 48:28
  quite often, profits not in the plenty.
• 48:31
  And people are very, very good at caring.
• 48:35
  That's not a question in my mind that a lot of providers care a
• 48:39
  lot, often too much to their own detriment.
• 48:42
  And that is a challenge. But I understand that is the
• 48:45
  duality of what everyone does in this industry.
• 48:48
  So where can you find opportunities to improve your
• 48:51
  business? And that is to understand your
• 48:53
  numbers. That is to understand what you
• 48:56
  can and can't afford to pay for marketing, how you can get more
• 49:00
  inquiries, and then how can you convert more inquiries?
• 49:03
  How can you support your clients better?
• 49:06
  How can you leverage technology to reduce your admin burdens, to
• 49:11
  reduce the time it takes to deliver supports or things that
• 49:16
  just ultimately reduce overheads?
• 49:18
  And so my, my vision for the industry is to say providers be
• 49:23
  more savvy with their growth planning, leveraging technology
• 49:27
  better and having smarter systems in place to just find a
• 49:30
  little bit more profit so they can enjoy the fruits of their
• 49:33
  labor. What I mean is they can put
• 49:35
  their feet up after 80 hours or 100 hours and actually feel like
• 49:39
  they they can spend a bit of money because there's a little
• 49:42
  bit of profit there. Absolutely.
• 49:44
  Yeah. Yeah, you definitely don't need
• 49:48
  a marketing guy to tell you how to go and shake hands with a few
• 49:52
  people and meet people and build good relationships.
• 49:56
  You probably need some understanding of how to make
• 49:59
  those relationships fruitful and how to get as many of those, and
• 50:03
  that's by simply knowing your audience.
• 50:05
  If you do nothing else today, get better at understanding the
• 50:09
  person on the other end of that conversation and how you're
• 50:12
  going to make their world a bit easier today or tomorrow.
• 50:15
  It's, it's absolutely, I feel like I'm still scratching the
• 50:18
  surface and I've been very privileged and grateful to be
• 50:22
  welcomed into the industry. And it's, there's often some
• 50:26
  dirty looks at marketing people and I understand that.
• 50:30
  I totally get it, you know, and I believe there's a chance for
• 50:34
  everyone to help each other. And so I've been very grateful
• 50:38
  and privileged to have a good network of people like yourself,
• 50:42
  like Tommy, like 10, you know, the list goes on.
• 50:44
  Cedar there. There's so many names I could
• 50:47
  rattle that have just been open and supportive.
• 50:50
  And then all the providers are willing to just, they are, their
• 50:53
  hearts are in the right place, you know, and they, they do
• 50:56
  care. And, but I just want them to be
• 50:59
  a little bit more selfish, to be better at their business, to
• 51:01
  survive a bit longer. Being selfish is OK.
• 51:04
  You got to be selfish. And am I wrong?
• 51:08
  Am I wrong in thinking that? Or is that right?
• 51:10
  Like it's, it's the, it's the challenge of needing to be
• 51:14
  selfish. As long as you can stay in
• 51:20
  business, it's been an absolute privilege.
• 51:23
  Thank you for having me. Thanks.
• 51:25
  See ya.