Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / The Value of Camp: What a tech-free summer teaches kids

Transcript

The Value of Camp: What a tech-free summer teaches kids · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: To day sailing. Milo, Elena and Anna all got their
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: beginners cardinals. Meghan Doug are beginners at tennis.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: I'm Emily Astar. This is parent data and today we're
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: going to camp.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: Okay, everybody show me your bracelets. I don't have many bracelets,
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: am I looking at right?
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: I have a lot account.
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: Also, that's another thing about camp.
• 0:33
  Speaker 4: You like give people a bunch of different braces. This
• 0:36
  Speaker 4: is from SO and so, this is from SO.
• 0:38
  Speaker 5: I just kind of like little memories, you weary memories shot.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: I remember camp for a few things.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: For the realization that it was okay to wear a
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: sports bra on stage in a play. Camp was the
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: place that I learned to shave my legs, although no
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: one told me that you should use shaving cream. And
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: it was the place where I first kissed a boy.
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: Camp is different.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: It's a place where you can be unself conscious. You
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: can have pure fun in the woods. It's a place
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: where you have camp friends. They're not the same as
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: your school friends. And if you know, you know, and
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: if you don't know, it's hard to explain.
• 1:32
  Speaker 5: Okay, one two three underwear underwear how I it's from
• 1:39
  Speaker 5: my woolen underwear.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: Oh, how I wish I.
• 1:43
  Speaker 5: Had gotten some made of cotton, so I wouldn't. It's
• 1:47
  Speaker 5: the way I do from my gosh darn, gosh darn
• 1:51
  Speaker 5: woolen underwear.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Hey, camp is a place where you're a twelve year
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: old your favorite activity is sailing, and also you're an
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: expert at it.
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: It's fun.
• 2:02
  Speaker 6: It just like depends on the wind.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: I was in there with three other preeople, any of
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  Speaker 1: them counselors.
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  Speaker 2: No amazing and especially now. Camp's a place where you
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: leave your screens and your phone at home and you
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: figure out what do you do instead?
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: We like each other's hair.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: Explain what you have in your hands right now.
• 2:23
  Speaker 6: Oh, technically I'm not supposed to have this, but I
• 2:26
  Speaker 6: forgot to bring it.
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  Speaker 3: Put it back in my cabin.
• 2:28
  Speaker 6: It's my string box. A lot of people make bracelets
• 2:31
  Speaker 6: here with string, so you just like buy a bunch
• 2:34
  Speaker 6: of string and you like put it into knots and
• 2:36
  Speaker 6: make bracelets.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: So we're not just going to camp today. We're also
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: going to talk to Steve Baskin. Steve Baskin is the
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: director of three camps, one in Massachusetts, one in Texas,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: one in North Carolina, and he's the incoming president of
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: the American Camp Association.
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: Steve loves camp.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: That will come across in this interview, and we're also
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: going to talk about why he loves camp and why
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: he thinks.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: It's so important for kids.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: We'll talk about interpersonal skills, about camp as exposure therapy,
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: about the importance of homesickness and of teaching resilience to
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: kids and teaching them to be alone together. And we'll
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: talk about phones and camp as one of the last
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: places where kids don't have them, and how kids react
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: when you take away their phone.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: Spoiler, it goes fine.
• 3:28
  Speaker 6: Not having my phone is like a part of camp,
• 3:32
  Speaker 6: and I think it really especially this generation. It's where
• 3:35
  Speaker 6: I'm addicted to screens, and I find when I come
• 3:38
  Speaker 6: back from camp, I don't have as big of an
• 3:40
  Speaker 6: urge to pick up my phone constantly. I think because
• 3:43
  Speaker 6: I'm I've gotten used to being outside. I don't need
• 3:47
  Speaker 6: to have my phone every every minute to see did
• 3:51
  Speaker 6: somebody snap me? Did somebody send me in a message?
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: I think for any parent who's camp curious, any parent
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: whose kid is camp curious, any parent who's thinking about phones,
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: and anyone who just loved camp, this is one to
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: listen to.
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  Speaker 5: Some advice for parents is send your kids to camp
• 4:09
  Speaker 5: because they are They will be like less addicted to
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  Speaker 5: technology and more like outside and.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: Reading, and they will be happier when they return after
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: the break. Steve Baskin, Steve Baskin, thanks so much for
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: joining me.
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  Speaker 1: I'm delighted to be here.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: So you run a camp, and we are here to
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  Speaker 2: talk about summer camp, and I would love to have
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: you introduce yourself, tell us about your camp, and then
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: we can talk a little bit about why you've devoted
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  Speaker 2: your life to doing this.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, well, I've been a camp professional for a little
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: more than thirty years. I did She's starting camp. I
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: went to investment, banking and consulting and business school before
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: I alighted into summer camp. And I run a camp
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  Speaker 1: in Texas as well as a camp in North Carolina,
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  Speaker 1: and I'm associated with a day camp outside of Boston
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  Speaker 1: as well, so I'm a full time camp geek.
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  Speaker 2: We met during the pandemic when in that first pandemic
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: summer in which you actually operated a camp, and I
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: was thinking about camps and kids, and we somehow connected.
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  Speaker 2: But it was very clear to me then and now
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  Speaker 2: and every time we've talked since then that this is
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: something you think is really important, and I'd love to
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  Speaker 2: have you talk a little bit about why.
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  Speaker 1: Well, if I can indulge a story, please, When I
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: was eight years old, I was the younger brother of
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: a local football star in Midland, Texas, right, and that's
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: where Friday Night Lights was written about. You know, football
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: is religion into sports at matter of football and spring football.
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  Speaker 1: And he was five eight and one hundred and forty pounds,
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  Speaker 1: which was nothing, and he was the all district center
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  Speaker 1: in the middle of the line. He blocked against the
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  Speaker 1: guys twice his weight kept the football team everyone called
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  Speaker 1: the Mighty Mouse. The winning parade float had a mighty
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: mouse with his jersey on it. Well, everyone wanted me
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: to follow in his footsteps, in regardless of the fact
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: that I was a chronic asthmetic who's the liversity of permudagrass.
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  Speaker 1: So I developed a image of myself as a failure,
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  Speaker 1: as somebody who couldn't meet other people's expectations. And of
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: course my parents told me you're not a failure, you're different.
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  Speaker 1: For your brother, you're okay. But everyone else was giving
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: me that look like oh, bless his heart. And I
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: really just felt like I was never going to measure up.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: And I went to camp, And at camp, I did
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  Speaker 1: not have an older brother. At camp, I had a
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  Speaker 1: nineteen year old that made me feel like his life
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  Speaker 1: was somehow made complete because the skinny asthmatic eight year
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  Speaker 1: old was in it and he met me, he listened
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  Speaker 1: to me, and I felt fully seen and I went
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  Speaker 1: back and never worried about playing footba again. So let
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: me also positive that I had as good a parents
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  Speaker 1: as someone could possibly hope to have. But they couldn't
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  Speaker 1: give me this third party validation. They couldn't give me
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: the knowledge that I was okay even if I wasn't
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  Speaker 1: a football player. So somewhere in the back of my
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: year old mind, I saw camp as a place for transition.
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  Speaker 1: My mom used to say, it's a place you can
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  Speaker 1: try on new versions of yourself. And I won't bory
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: you with another story. But when I was fifteen, I
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: got the equivalent of like an eagle scout, and I
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: became convinced I could do anything on my own, not
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: with the help of my parents. So those two things
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  Speaker 1: informed me my view that camp was a place for
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  Speaker 1: massive transformation.
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  Speaker 2: It's so interesting because that anecdote is about it's basically
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  Speaker 2: an anecdotal version of a lot of what we see
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  Speaker 2: in the data, which is camp as a kind of
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: sense of belonging and as when we look at trials
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: or data on what happens with kids at camp, there
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  Speaker 2: is this piece that comes out very strongly of this
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: being a place where kids, especially who are different in
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: some other way from their peers, can connect with other
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  Speaker 2: people that they connect with better, and that has very
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  Speaker 2: good emotional effects.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely. Now I'll also say I like also having the
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: kids who are having trouble other places and they get
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  Speaker 1: to come and then try out being kind. Sometimes the
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  Speaker 1: alphas will learn that, hey, you're the top of the
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  Speaker 1: total poll and you don't have to acknowledge the people
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: down below a camp that's not okay. So they're getting
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  Speaker 1: new narratives as well. Sometimes I frame camp is a
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  Speaker 1: place to develop new and better narratives when the narratives
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  Speaker 1: that you've developed to that date are created by an
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  Speaker 1: ecosystem that you cannot change.
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  Speaker 2: I will tell you that I one of the most
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: formative experiences of my adolescence was the summer I went
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  Speaker 2: to camp after seventh grade, and I had had a
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  Speaker 2: very very.
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  Speaker 3: Difficult social time. As you might imagine.
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  Speaker 2: Middle school was not serving me well, and I was
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  Speaker 2: very unhappy. And I went to a camp that involved
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: doing math all day, so it was just like you
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  Speaker 2: did math all day like and for me, like that
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  Speaker 2: was what I wanted. I really liked doing math, and
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  Speaker 2: I the first time in my whole life I was
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  Speaker 2: around other people who also wanted to do that and
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  Speaker 2: for whom I could recreate as someone who was like cool.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I still remember I got invited to this.
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  Speaker 2: Like at the end, some of the people I thought
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: were cool at camp had like a final circle and
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  Speaker 2: I was there and I was like, that's it, Like
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  Speaker 2: I've i this is this is my people. And then
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  Speaker 2: it was almost like it's going to be okay because
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  Speaker 2: I know these people are in the world and one
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  Speaker 2: day I'm going to find them again.
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  Speaker 3: It's not going to be the eighth grade, but it
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  Speaker 3: will happen. And it was. It was really important.
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  Speaker 1: Well, and I bet also, and I don't want to
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  Speaker 1: put words in your mouth. Once you sort of felt
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  Speaker 1: more comfortable, you didn't feel judged, you started to hone
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  Speaker 1: other interpersonal skills in an environment that wasn't being mediated
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: by other adults. And when you came back, maybe you
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: weren't you know, as happy when we're in eighth grade,
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: but you were mrgly better and interacting with people even
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: outside of your MAILU. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an unusual circumstance to put a kid in
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  Speaker 2: a place where they don't have an adult to scaffold
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  Speaker 2: and they don't really know anybody else, and say, you know,
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  Speaker 2: figure out, figure out these relationships, figure out this environment
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  Speaker 2: by yourself.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: Actually, you just said something too that I'm going to share.
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  Speaker 1: One of my geekier theories right now is that people
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: are talking a lot about the developmental benefits of unsupervised
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: free play. Right. Uh. Literal skin Easy talks a lot
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: about this. John Hide talks, Yeah, believe it entirely. Here's
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: the thing. Parents aren't totally jazzed about the word supervised.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: What camp is. Camp is an arbitrage. Camp is an
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: opportunity to get unusual benefits with unusually low risk. So,
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: in other words, from the kids point of view, it's
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: unsupervised food play because the nineteen year old's too cool
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: to be an adult, right, But they're actually watched better
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: than at home, and I can't remember exact stats, but
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  Speaker 1: I seem to recall that schools are twice as safe
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: as homes, and camps are five times safe. With the homes,
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  Speaker 1: I joke that I will let my kids play and supervised,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: but I won't let yours. Right, But again, who's supervising?
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  Speaker 1: Supervising by these super cool nineteen year olds that see you,
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  Speaker 1: so it does not feel like a judging parrot. And
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: also they're watching ten kids, not one. So they let
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: the kids spread their wings a little bit, They let
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: them go a little further and disagreeing about the rules
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: of a game of Gaga without marching in and say no,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: here's how we're going to do it. So the kids
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: can adjudicate their own issues, and they the supervisors only
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: step in when you're beyond the bounded range of what
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: is actually safe. Does that make sense?
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it does.
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  Speaker 2: It's interesting because I think that this as you as
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: you know, this conversation about kind of unsupervised play has
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: come up a lot lately, and I think one issue
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: for many parents is going from where we are now,
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: which is a lot of kids, you know, they're not
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: walking to school on their own, They're not really going
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: out by themselves. Going from that to like my kids
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: to just play in the woods by themselves and come
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  Speaker 2: back at dinner time is a bridge.
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  Speaker 3: Too far, and that's that's too difficult to do.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: And the idea that maybe there's a way to get
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: some of that an intermediate way.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, campus exposure therapy. My child went away, I didn't
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: watch them every moment, and they didn't just come back. Okay,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: they came back better. Hm. So maybe with the right friend,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: I can let them go play, you know, at a
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: park for a couple hours and they come back and
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe I'll have a few the neighbors like
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: out the windows and make sure they're okay, but I'm
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: not going to be the one there, and eventually you
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: can start to recreate something closer to what we had
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: when we grew up. Yeah.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think exposure therapy on this stuff is
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: so it is a nice way to put it, because
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: it does get easier the second time. The second time
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: you let you could walk to around the block by themselves,
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: it's easier than the first time. And some of those
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: are just getting over the barrier of you know, how
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: worried we are about our kids. For a good reason,
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: but not always to their benefit.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: I've developed a hypothesis that there are sort of two
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: pools of parental effort. Pool number one is protect and provide,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: and pool number two is prepared. And when you're holding
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: that baby in your arms, you've better be one hundred
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: percent in the protected provide. You're not in preparation, you're
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: not whispering them about the secrets of the world. You're
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: just making sure they're okay. But by the time they're
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: twenty one twenty five, I hope you're one hundred percent
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: in the prepare and not in the protected provide. And
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: it almost seems them a sort of cross lines on
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: a graph the amount of parental time. But we don't
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: see that. What we see is we keep We don't
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: want to let go of the protect mode. And it
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: makes sense because our neighbors aren't right and we feel negligent.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: We feel when people look at us like, oh, yeah,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Emily really doesn't like her kids. Look she's letting them
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: go do this. And it's hard to have the confidence
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: in yourself to say no, no, I know this is
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: what will make my children strong, right, And that's just hard.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: So I want to talk a little bit about screens,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: because the other thing that comes up probably the most
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: in the parents that I talk to, particularly with older kids,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: is stuff about phones. It actually overlaps some with these
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: issues of independence and especially with the anxious generation discussions.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: Parents are concerned about their kids' phone.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Use, and camp is often one of the few places
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: that kids are where phones are not. And so I want, first,
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: can you just tell us what this screen phone policy
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: is at your camp?
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: There are none?
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: And when people can you just like say a little
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: more about what you mean by none.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: What that means is that they might see a movie.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: We might project up a movie on movie night. Maybe
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: I'm not even sure we have moving that this term right.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: They will not have a phone, they will not have
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: a game system, they will not look at a computer.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: A few of the kids in high school, one of
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: their activities is working on our media team. So they
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: might take some photos and post them up, but that's it.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: The only other time they will see anything looks like
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: a chicnic trying screen is if you were a high
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: school kid and you're part of our high school leadership program,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: and we'll bring you into the house and maybe show
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: you a ted talk of the importance of not being
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: addicted to screens right, just as a starting place. Other
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: than that, it's ten thousand minutes without looking at any
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: kind of electronics screen.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: And tell me what happens.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: A kids shows up a camp, they give you their
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: their phone, and area is how they react to this.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: You know, it's been really interesting to watch the trend.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: About six years ago, you would have felt like you
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: were taking the ring from Gollum in Lord of the Rings.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: So the kids are like grasping onto them. Some of
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: them will bring second phones. I had a parent one
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: time ship a phone inside of a Teddy Bear.
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, how did you find How did you
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: find it?
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: It started to ring as we were handed it to
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: the child, which I actually thought was pretty delicious anyway.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: But now we get a small number of first time
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: campers for whom the phone is a social crutch that
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: when they're not quite sure what to do, they could,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: you know, go down and look at it as if
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: something really important is happening. You know, it is something
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: that when they're bored, they could stay entertained. By the way,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of boredom. I'm boring with all
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: my theories there, but I really want kids to day
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: dream some but you know, they are used to every
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: moment being able to have music or a distraction or
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: something that keeps them from sort of sitting with themselves.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Those first time campers break up into kind of two
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: different groups. One if there's like a day where they're
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: not quite sure and then they go, wait a second.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: This kind of talking to people face to face and
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: having them laugh at my jokes is awesome and wow,
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: actually get to put my arm around a friend or
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: give them a hug, and there's some importance. I don't
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: know all the neurology about this, but there's an importance
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: of physical contact and just knowing that other person's there.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: So most of the kids fall in that category. There
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: are some kids that I would put into the they're
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: actually kind of addicted category and you just have to
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: love them through it. Right now, the returners, this is
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: entirely different. They're like, OMG, I love this because for
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: most teens, the phones have gone from a liberating element
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: to almost a burden. If you do not respond quickly
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: to your friend's instagrams with glowing praise as rapidly as possible,
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: you're not a good friend. So now you have this
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: call on your time in the pocket that texts and
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: messages and instagrams and all the stuff that you have
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: to respond to to be a good friend and someone.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: They go, oh, I could tell all my friends that
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: my camp director is a jerk and doesn't let me
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: have a phone. But secretly I'm delighted to not have
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: to deal with it anymore. There's a I had a
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: talk discussion yesterday with thirty high schoolers and they're like,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: I just love this. I just don't know how to
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: recreate it back home. Yeah.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: So I'm curious about that because it seems like the
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: central piece of this is that.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: The other people around you are not doing it.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: So both they're physically not doing it, and then they
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: have no expectation that you will be interacting with them
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: exactly like that.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: And I'll throw one other thing out there. The counselors
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: aren't either, right, So the young kids, especially the young kids,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: get to see adults not addicted to their phones. I'll
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: actually say that if a counselor has a phone in
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: the presence of a child, they're doing harm because their
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: job is to be the one exemplar of somebody who
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: doesn't need it, right, But you've identified the biggest issue.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: It's a collective action problem. Yeah, so it's collective action.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: It can't no one has it. In fact, if I
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: were to give a phone to just one of those kids,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: they would be incredibly self conscious looking at it, right,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: because no one else has it. So we spend a
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: lot of time thinking about how do you address the
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: collective action problem. Now, you know what it feels like
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: to be present with another human being, you know what
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: it feels like to have a real connection and not
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: a virtual connection. How can you create an environment in
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: which that can happen at some level on a regular
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: basis at home?
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: Do you have ideas well?
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: I had one of the young women say, I have
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: a group of friends and we agree at least twice
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: a week to do an hour and a half thing.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: Maybe we go to eat, maybe we just go to
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: the but we don't even take the phones with us
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: so we can reach for And I thought, wow, that's
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: super cool because there's a group of people, they are
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: being social together and none of them can be tempted.
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Other people will say, hey, look, I will not do
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: any text or in my phone after eight o'clock at night,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: so you know, maybe blame on your parents, but I'm
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: not going to be connecting. Then if you want to
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: call me, maybe you could call me, but I'm not
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: going to connected this way.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit of a the
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: there's a message, a little bit of a message for
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: parents in here that in some sense the boundary of
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: you know, my camp director is a jerk and we'll
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: maybe on my phone is a version that one could imagine,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: you know, especially for a younger team, being able to say, look,
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: we're just not on our phones after seven pm, and
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: you should tell your friends your parents said, you know,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: your phone is not available after seven pm, and they
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: shouldn't expect to hear from you.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, But I think there's another step. There's a book
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: coming out from a psychology professor un text is called
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: David Yaeger, and he posits that the primary motivationing force
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: for teenagers is status in respect. That sounds right, So
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: there's not quite as much status and say my parents
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: tell me I can't use the phone. There is status
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: and say, hey, I'm really tired of the idea that
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: I am a product that is being sold to advertisers.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: And the idea that if I want to be on
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Instagram reels for thirty minutes, but I'm on for two hours,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: that means I just made Mark Zuckerberg. Richard. You know,
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: we together need to have a frame where we will
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: not be slaves to our phones. So what are we
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: I'm talking now a group of six year olds, what
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: are we going to do to make sure that we
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: own our phones that they don't own us? And I
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: think that's going to be the key to getting the
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: collective action thing going, is creating a frame where it's
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: not the parents trying to take the phone away, because
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: that is not giving them status, that's not giving them respect,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: and it goes against their desire to individuate. But instead
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: you say, no, look, these companies don't care about you.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: You are the product that's interesting. And when you frame
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: it this way, that works. And I know actually one
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: of my sons used to do the same move. They
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: go out to a meal or something, they put the
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: phones in the middle. And everyone's always heard that if
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: you reach for your phone, you pay for it. You're
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: you know, you're just you pay for this. But there's
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: a real status in that because your parents are paying
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: for it's like you're shelling it out. No, he says,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: if you reach for your phone, you're weak. No, but
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: think about the frame. It's so simple. Yeah, and you
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: would think they were made of radioactive uranium. No one
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: reached for them at all because no.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: One wanted to be No one wants to be weak.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: So what we need to do is help create a frame.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: And I do this with my high school kids. But
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: that I mean my high school leadership program that you
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: don't want to be slaves to, you know, TikTok or
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: the companies. You want to have agency, you have to
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: be the leader that creates It's a frame within your
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: community that gives you ownership as opposed to being owned.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: How are you going to do that? And they're so like, yeah,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: put me in coach. I like that.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: And what is it like to be withouts? It's actually
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: kind of nice.
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: I really, I really like it. I feel like like
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: I feel like I wouldn't bond with people any mirror
• 23:27
  Speaker 5: mirror as much as I do if there were phones,
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: because I feel like I'm closer with a lot of
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: people here than with people at home.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: That I've known for longer.
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't stress about like what's going on around
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: the world or like my friends, it's just like people
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: here and.
• 23:42
  Speaker 6: If something happens, I just talk about with my friends
• 23:44
  Speaker 6: and it's not really a big deal.
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: A lot of people like assume that sucks, But I
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: actually enjoy it more because I feel like it gives
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: me like.
• 23:50
  Speaker 6: A cleanse or whatever, like from the outside world that
• 23:53
  Speaker 6: like I definitely need. Yeah, I feel like I have
• 23:56
  Speaker 6: a lot more fun because like I'm not worrying about stuff,
• 23:59
  Speaker 6: Like you're just to screen all. Yeah, like I it's
• 24:03
  Speaker 6: easier to like actually focus and like have more fun
• 24:07
  Speaker 6: and well you're not like electronics and stuff.
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: Also, like if you don't have your phone on you,
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: some people are like worrying about like what their friends
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: are doing or being like left out at camp since
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: I don't have my phone, I'm just like having more
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: fun with my camp friends than I would at home.
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: It's easier to like make friends and stuff.
• 24:23
  Speaker 5: You make better connections with people.
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: I think I'm close with my camp friends and my
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: friends at school.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: Yes, what I mean.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: More parent data, including why homesickness is a feature of
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: camp life not a bug. After the break, Okay, so
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: we're gonna get all right, I want to get back
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: to the camp piece of this, because whenever I talk
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: to you about this, I'm just like, how can everyone
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: go to camp? And and I think that many parents
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: will also get here and think like, yes, this sounds amazing.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: There's no phones, everybody feels they're belonging. But even if
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: I'm not concerned about my kids safety, which I think
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: many parents can get over, people are going to worry
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: about their kids being homesick. And I'm going to send
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: my kid to this camp and they haven't been away
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: from me very much, maybe not at all, and I'm
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: afraid they'll be sad, and so I love to start
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: by just asking, like our kids sad?
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: Absolutely? Okay, home is a nice place.
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Have you ever traveled to a foreign country that doesn't
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: speak your language and been absolutely comfortable the moment you arrived? No,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: I'm not. I need to figure out how to ask
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: where the bathroom is, how I can get food and
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: change money, like until that happens, and maybe transportation. I'm
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: not comfortable in a country that I don't speak the language,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: but to travel, and I have to be comfortable with
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: being uncomfortable in order to get the wonderful experience of travel.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Home is a wonderful place, but it's a place that
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: doesn't enable you to grow as much as environments that
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: stretch you. So I would suggest that homesickness is a feature,
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: not a buck or put differently, there's some parents that go, hey,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: other kids could do this, but mine can't. Be hold
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: is she she's twelve? Okay? Most kids can do three
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: or four weeks when they're eight. Okay, that's about ninety
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: five percent are going to be totally okay at age
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: eight to go several weeks. If you tell your twelve
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: year old they can't do it, and then you ask
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: them when you want to do it, well, and they're thirteen, Well,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: other people can do it, maybe I can't. When are
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: they ever going to know they can do that? And
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: by the way, they're going to be going to college
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: at some point you think there's suddenly it's going to
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: snap and go, oh I could go to camp for
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: two weeks, but now I could go for nine months.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Right back to the prepare and protect there is to
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: protect them. Yes, they will have moments when they're a
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: little bit sad, and they'll be around other people having
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: the same experience, or people who have had that same
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: experience with two counselors, probably with you know, eight nine,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: ten kids who have been trained on how to deal
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: with homesickness. And there's a whole array of techniques, but
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: just know this is one of the things that you
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: have to do well if you're a camp professional, right,
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: And then what happens on the other side is, wait,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: I'm now the kind of kid that can be away
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: from home and make friends and accomplish new skills and
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: be spectacular without being in the shadow of my mom
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: and dad. I still love them as much. In fact,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: I might leave them a little bit more because they
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: had enough confidence in me to take this risk. So
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: I absolutely believe that homesickness is an exercise in anti fragility.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: It's one of those things that puts us outside of
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: our comfort zone that then gives us evidence that we're
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: more capable than we thought.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: Like kids call their parents, no, I mean there's no
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: your face said answered that.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's it's a little bit like, Okay,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: we've just got them somebody. That's a terrible analogy. If
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: someone has just gotten off of use in their phone,
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: they've now learned I'm not constantly looking at my hand
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: or looking at my pocket for the phone. Would you
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: then reintroduce it after three days? The hearing a parent's
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: voice in about nineteen out of twenty cases will only
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: make homesickness worse. Now, what's the twentieth case. The twentieth
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: case is the parent who needs to say no, I'm
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: not going to come get you. And by the way,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: here's the thing that I've learned about kids, and this
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: is true in about you know, nine hundred and ninety
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: nine out of a thousand cases, so I have maybe
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: two campers of two thousand a summer. That this does
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: not apply to is that once they know the option
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: is not there, they will redirect their energy. They're not
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: pools right now, they're but they're really really good at
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: being persistent. So they'll try their counsel, then they'll try
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: the divisilator, then they'll try a director. And sometimes we
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: just have to be look, I'm telling you you're not
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: going to call home, and they go okay, and then
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: they adjust, and very very very rarely the parent has
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: to stay actually, I'm not going to come get you.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Have a good time. But that's super rare.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: Do you ever have kids leave.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll have one or two leave a summer. But
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: what's what's you're my mathematician, what's two in two thousand?
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: Do you encourage kids to write to their This is
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: like a very practical thing.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: But you do you encourage kids to write to their parents?
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: I do. I do, And that, by the way, is uh.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: I believe it's developmentally appropriate. Wait, boys almost never write. Yeah,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: and when they do write, they write the letter I
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: wrote if for parents listening. Remember I am now a
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: full time camp official, but I was eight years old.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Remember the Asthmata kid and the letter I wrote to
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: my parents. Mom. I got some water in my hand
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: and dripped it on the page, and I wrote, dear mommy,
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: I had not called her mommy in like two years.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Dear Mommy, the stains on this page, the tears that
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: are falling from my eyes. If you truly loved me,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: you'd come and get me.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: Okay, one she got that letter last year?
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually write that to the parents. I say,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: do you buy get this letter? Well? My mom calls
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: the camp, has a laugh, doesn't do anything. Why because
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: my two older siblings had done all this ten years earlier,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: and she knew that I'm writing this during rest period
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: when nothing else is going on, and I'm not thinking
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: about the fun activities. I'm thinking about home, and I'm
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: getting a little ruminating and I'm melodramatic. So I write this.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: They called up and said, is he okay? Yeah, I've
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: seen me smile it all the time. No, you know,
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: evidence of massive despondency. Nope, doing great, Fine, she saved
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: the letter. That's nice, very high quality of parenting right there.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: So again, I see, let me back up again. If
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: you come and rescue your child, if you tell your child,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: if you're uncomfortable to sleep over, for example, I will
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: come and get you. I see. It comes from a
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: place of love. It comes from a place of it.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: I do not want you to suffer at all. I
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: don't want you to feel scared. But if you're the
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: only one that's being rescued, and I'm saying this with
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: love to any parent listening to it, your child gets
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: the message that they aren't able to deal with it.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: If I cut your meat for you, Emily, every time
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: you ate, you would think I'm sending the messages. I
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: don't think you could catch your own meat. If I
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: rush and open the door and do everything for you.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: At some point you go, hey, buddy, I am an
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: adult human being. I don't need you to do things
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: for me. If you do things for people all the time,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: especially when they see other people aren't being scoffolded as much,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: they will get the message that they're not capable. And
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: I know parents don't want to hear this, but that
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: is questionably the message they get is other kids might
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: be able to do camp, they might be able to
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: do a sleepover, but you, my sweet, delicate Chida doll,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: you can't. And again, I hope this doesn't sound like
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: a jerk.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: No, I think I actually think it's incredibly important to hear,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: you know, in part because I just think we aren't,
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: as parents, for good reason, comfortable living with our kids
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: being sad, and in some ways I think we're looking.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: People are looking in this for answers like, well, you know,
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: when your kid goes to camp, like there's some or
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: there's some situation in which they're not They're like they're
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: never having any discomfort. And sure, some kids are going
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: to show up and be like this is great, I'm
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: not homesick. But the recognition that many kids will show up.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: They will have some discomfort, they will be a little sad,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: and it is still the right thing.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: Holding that together is so crucial.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: I'm going to say that I would not actually say
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: to a parent, but it's like, hey, my child was
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: hosteding this. I want to say, you're welcome. Yeah, they
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: got on the other side and now they're better for it, right,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: you know. Oh, and they had an argument with one
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: of their cabin baits. You're welcome. They're gonna have it
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: argued with the roommates someday, but they adjudicated it on
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: their own. They learned that you could disagree with somebody
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: and be friends with them later. Right. Here's the little
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: secret about camp is campus a place that is challenging
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: in a lot of different ways. I will try an
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: activity and fail at it, and then I'll learn through
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: tenacity I could later succeed. I'll try an activity and
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: fail at it and never succeed. I could set a
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: goal to dunk of basketball and it ain't gonna happen.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: I could set that goal. I have to learn some
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: things I can't do. I will have friends cabin baits
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: I don't like. I'll have days I was looking forward
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: to activity it rained, and all these little inconveniences are
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: ones I learned to deal with. It keeps fun enough
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: and the relationship is strong enough that it makes it
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: all okay. Right. But I'm a big fan of the
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: the guy who wrote The Black Swan I forget his name, right.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: It talks about a differgility. Is that tell you is
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: that if we act like profsial, we will develop I
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: think if you want your kid out to be sad,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: you need them to have moments of sadness and get
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: on the other side of it. If you make sadness
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: the ultimate theme to be feared, when they finally do
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: experience it later in life, they will see it as
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: maybe even an existential threat, as opposed to, Oh, I've
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: been sad before, and I know I can come up
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: the other side of it, right. I really just believe
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: that having evidence that you can have a difficulty and
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: be made better for it. Back to the definition of
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: menu of f agility is those things that are estful
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: and strainful that make a system better. So immune systems,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: or muscles or bones or the human spirit. Our things
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: are anti fragile.
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: I have a very practical question.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: One of my favorite academic papers about camp is a
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: randomized trial of trying to get boys at a sleep
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: boy camp to brush their teeth. And they found that
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: if you if you limited swim time unless they have
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: proven that they brush their teeth, that encouraged tooth brushing.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: Is my kid going to brush his teeth at camp?
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: Please say yes?
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Yes? No. Look, we have learned there are very small
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: handful of things that cannot be forgiven. A parrot will
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: forgive that of a eight year old boy wears the
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: same shirt three days in a row. They're not going
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: to forgive that they wear the same pair of underwear
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: three days. If they don't shower a week, Mom's gonna notice. Right.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: So it's not just that it's the right thing to
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: do to teach some responsibility. It's that that's a baseline
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: of care. We've got to make sure they're hell healthy
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: and safe, and part of that is basic.
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: HIGI okay, I'm relieved.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: So I have one last question, which is you've been
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: doing this for thirty years. What are the biggest changes
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: over time, either in kids or parents.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: I think one of the big trends is back to
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: the protect and provide versus prepare. I think we've dialed
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: down preparation, dialed up protection. I could say that with
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: absolute certainty. I will also say that the level of
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: professionalism in camps have gone way way up. Yeah, when
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: I came to the industry thirty years ago, if you
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: looked at brochure, it was like a carnival cruise line.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: We've got archery, we've got canoeing. Here are the activities
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: we do. And it might be twenty four pages, twenty
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: two of which is here's stuff you get to do. Now.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: A well crafted message about camp is here are the
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: hero role models we're going to have as counselors. Here's
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: what your child's going to learn. Here are our values
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: that our camp sits responsibility, respect, reaching out, reasonable risk,
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: and resilience the four or five hours, depending on if
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: it's the camp in Texas or the camp in North Carolina.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: So there is an overall sort of youth development professionalism
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: that has come in. You will not be surprised to
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: have camp directors who know who Emily Oaster is as
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: opposed to just know who's like a really really good
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: person to teach the breast stroke. Right. So, I think
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: we've just really elevated a game in terms of creating safe,
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: healthy environments that enable kids to grow.
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Steve.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Tell people where they can find you if they're dying
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: to send their kids to your camp.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, one camp is called Camp Champions. It's outside
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: of Austin, Texas. The other one is called Camp Pinnacle.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: It is outside of Asheville, and the day camp is
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: in Sharon, Massachusetts. But either camp will commun to come
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: to the website and send us an email, and if
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: you're interested in camp, we recommend it. But also I'm
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: the incoming chair of the American Camp Association. So what
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: I want to say to anyone here is find a
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: camp that tried for you. Not all camps. Camps are
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: more expensive than I'd like to be because you have
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: to make a whole year's worth of work done in seven, eight,
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: nine weeks. But there's a whole array of costs of camp,
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: and there are camps for everybody. It might be a
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: math camp for a budding young PhD.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: Might be a math camp, might be a math camp,
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: might be a music camp, might just be a regular camp.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: In the woods. Thank you so much, Steve, I really
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: appreciate it, and thank.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: You Emily for being a boys to talk with camp,
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: and I will thank you one another thing. I'm not
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: sure I to have had the courage to run camp
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: in twenty twenty if it weren't some of the conversation
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: head with you and other people.
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: Well, I am sure the kids really really appreciated that.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Oh as did the counselors. It was a sanity saver.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: Special thanks today the Falcon Camp in Carrollton, Ohio for
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: so generously inviting us to record their day and they're
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: awesome campers.
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: Parent Data is produced.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: By Tamar Avishai with support from the Parent Data Team
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: and pr Rex. If you have thoughts on this episode,
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: please join the conversation on my Instagram at Emily Aster
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: and if you want to support the show, become a
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: subscriber to the parent Data newsletter at parentdata dot org,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: where I write weekly posts on everything to do with
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: parents and data to help you make better, more informed
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: parenting decisions. For example, earlier this year, we published an
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: article titled a Data Driven Approach to Summercamp, which not
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: only tackles the data about the importance of camp like
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: we talked about today with Steve, but also helps them
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: manage all the logistics one word labels iron on, press
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: on just labels, read all about it at parentdata dot org.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: There are a lot of ways you can help people
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: find out about us.
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: Leave a rating or review on Apple podcasts.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: Text your friend about something you learned from this episode.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: Debate your mother in law about the merits of something
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: parents do now that is totally different from what she did.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: Post a story to your Instagram debunking a panic headline
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: of your own. Just remember to mention the podcast too.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: Write Penelope right, mom, We'll see you next time.
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: Saying this is a miss issue.
• 41:11
  Speaker 6: Seven little things he's gonna feel.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: Wow, gop Nice, I can't wait to hear it at
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: campfire if it sounds that awesome already