Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to James Lark about his choice of Delta & the Bannermen (1/3)

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Talks to James Lark about his choice of Delta & the Bannermen (1/3) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:22
None. A hamster with a blump pen knife
0:35
for doing quicker. Quicker Welcome back to A
0:40
Hamster with a Blump Pen Knife the Doctor Who Commentary
0:44
Podcast. It is my delight today to have
0:49
as not a newbie to hamster. I've got Mr. James Lark with me
0:55
today. Hello, James.
0:56
Hello. You've done a few of these now,
0:59
haven't you? But you haven't done any of
1:00
these commentaries. It's the first commentary.
1:02
I've done four of the book clubs.
1:05
And. Oh yeah, and and strict.
1:08
How could I forget and and strictly come hamster on.
1:13
Was it 11? We did. 11 which is ever
1:16
climbing ever higher. My top 10 most listened episodes
1:20
ever. It's it's settling around sort
1:23
of five at the moment. But yeah, that very popular,
1:26
that one who knew so many people loved monster Peloton.
1:30
Well, I didn't. You did I?
1:33
Feel like on that episode? I feel like I became the voice
1:36
of the silent majority. So convincing.
1:39
We all put it through. Astonishing.
1:43
But we're not here to talk about season 11.
1:45
Today we are skipping to another insanely popular season, Season
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24. I've got three questions for you
1:55
before. Is that ironic when you say
1:57
insanely popular? Or is it?
1:58
Or do you think it is insanely popular now?
2:00
No, I was dripping with sarcasm. Although when the did you notice
2:03
when the Blu-ray came out there was this sort of.
2:05
Lot of love for it and lots of love for it.
2:08
I feel like the people that sort of wait in the wings that love
2:11
season 24, there's about sort of three in 100, but finally they
2:15
they could shout out yes, because everyone is so excited
2:18
when those Blu rays come out, even the seasons that are less
2:21
popular. Well, and that was a cracking
2:23
set as well, that. I mean, I think probably of all
2:26
the Blu Rays, that one came packed with the most exciting,
2:30
just reams of extras that I don't.
2:33
I don't know if anyone's even worked their way through them
2:34
all yet, but. Do you think there's a reason
2:36
for that, though? Because I think 23 did as well.
2:42
What? Just a load of footage on the
2:43
custom room floor and. I I I think they packed those.
2:46
Well, not not only because there's only four stories and a
2:50
lot. Of the other thing that's a lot
2:51
of that's true, but there's a lot of stuff that's that.
2:53
That seems to me that there's a lot more material exists from
2:57
around Season 24 than Season 26, weirdly.
3:00
I love. I mean, I can't watch it all.
3:03
I prefer it. You know, the all the the
3:06
filming stuff that they've got, you know Kate Omar are standing
3:09
in a damp quarry looking a bit pissed off under a brolly.
3:13
I I like it when they cut all that down to little segments and
3:15
they give you all the best of it.
3:17
But I can't sit there and watch 5 hours a bit.
3:19
That's a bit hard call for me and just waiting for something
3:22
to happen. There's there's on the time in
3:24
the Rani one, you can actually just watch the the TARDIS prop
3:26
in a quarry for about half an hour.
3:28
Nothing. Nothing happening at all.
3:31
There's one or two of people on Twitter I know probably have
3:33
endured that, but not too many people.
3:36
But there is something in The first thing I went to when I got
3:38
that Blu-ray was Sylvester Mccoy's regeneration sequence,
3:43
and it's about 20 minutes of material, that's how.
3:45
I haven't washed that. Right.
3:47
Well, I it is fascinating, but partly because what they're
3:52
trying to do is completely wrong headed.
3:55
They're trying to zoom the camera in and then, I mean in
4:01
their heads they think it's going to be simple and, you
4:02
know, whip off the wig, scrub his eyebrows and it'll all line
4:06
up. And of course, the minute you're
4:07
zoomed right in, so the minute his face moves a millimetre,
4:11
it's completely out of line. And what you watch is 3 or 4
4:16
takes of the of the initial shot.
4:18
And then they're like, right, hold the camera, get the wig
4:20
off, scrub his eyebrows. And by the time they finish
4:23
scrubbing his eyebrows, scrubbing all the Colin Baker
4:26
out of him, he's he's just moved.
4:30
He's just moved into a completely different position
4:32
because they're doing it in the most insane way.
4:34
They should have moved the camera in and you're there going
4:36
well, you're never, ever, ever going to line that up.
4:39
And McCoy just lies there while people are going just just a bit
4:43
to your no, no, to your to my left, no to hang on up, up, a
4:47
bit down. And it's just utter insanity.
4:51
And there's something quite moving about watching this kind
4:54
of his prostate figure, prostate figure, prostate figure.
5:02
Thank you. I wondered where that was going.
5:04
Oh, you guys scrubbing Colin Baker out of him and now he's a
5:06
prostate figure, his prostate figure, surrounded by this
5:09
chaos. You know, he's this calm.
5:11
He's just being an absolute pro and just letting it happen.
5:14
And there is a point where he just sort of opens his eyes a
5:16
bit and says maybe if I could see the monitor I could help a
5:19
bit and it it just sort of in macrocosm.
5:23
You've got his entire Doctor Who journey there, like surrounded
5:27
by chaos while trying to be a kind of absolute pro in the
5:30
middle of it. He tells wonderful stories,
5:32
doesn't he, About how, like they do the producers run all the
5:36
rehearsals and everything and then, you know, everyone has to
5:39
be absolutely perfect on the floor, hit your marks, say your
5:42
lines. Special effects are paramount.
5:44
And Sylvester McCoy is there going, oh, maybe I could just
5:47
try this, you know, can we try that?
5:48
He tells wonderful stories about that.
5:50
So maybe that's where it started, right there, right at
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the start. Well, but, but ultimately, I
5:55
mean then it cuts out before you see.
5:57
You don't actually see who who managed to solve the problem,
6:01
but you can hear them trying to lug a monitor over into his line
6:04
because they've got him at a really stupid angle as well,
6:06
sort of filming up his nostrils. And what is astonishing is that
6:11
somebody didn't notice that under that blonde wig, a curl of
6:15
his dark hair is visible. So when the week vanishes,
6:19
obviously the black hair stays and the whole thing is just
6:23
blown. I mean, it's obvious anyway, but
6:26
hey, it was a primitive time for television special effects.
6:31
Was a primitive time. It wasn't.
6:32
It wasn't a very primitive time for knowing how to move TV
6:37
cameras around. They're basically, they're
6:38
basically doing attempting to do a really crap version of the
6:42
first regeneration. And what they achieved
6:44
beautifully in 66, they have somehow forgotten completely how
6:48
to do in 80. 7 James doing this podcast.
6:51
The amount of time, as I've said, how is it they've got this
6:54
right in whatever year it is and they somehow forget how to do
6:59
this technique with puppets with location work?
7:02
Fades special. Garlic voices all.
7:05
Sorts. Yeah.
7:06
Well, yeah, we covered that last time.
7:09
Honestly, I knew you and me were going to go to some depth, and
7:11
we haven't even started talking about Delta yet.
7:14
We are here today to talk about Delta and the Banner Men.
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I've got to hit you with three questions before we even go into
7:21
the first episode. So how long have you got?
7:24
Question #1 is what do you think of the talent of Classic Who,
7:31
the Sylvester McCoy era? Question 2 is what do you think
7:35
of Season 24, which is a very different beast I think to the
7:40
rest of the Sylvester McCoy era and three.
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I hope you're paying attention. What are your initial thoughts
7:48
on Dealt with the Bannermen before we go in?
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Oh, well, they're all easy questions to answer.
7:54
In a way. I think that the tail end of
7:57
Doctor Who is absolutely one of the pinnacles, I think.
8:05
Oh, hello. I've just had a troubling
8:08
message saying that there's 20% of battery.
8:10
I thought that my phone was charging.
8:12
That's exciting. It might lose.
8:14
It might lose. It might lose my face at some
8:16
point. We'll see what happens there.
8:20
I think it's AI think it's a pinnacle comparable to the Hinch
8:23
Cliff years. I would go that far.
8:26
I think it's one of the absolute high points of Doctor Who.
8:30
I wonder if the only reason it was able to be quite so
8:33
brilliant was because nobody in the BBC was really paying any
8:38
attention to it. I think they had a freedom that
8:40
most television doesn't have. I think they were doing things
8:42
that arguably television should attempt to do at 7:30 on a on a
8:48
Wednesday. But I think it's it has an
8:52
incredible integrity to it. I think it has a just an
8:55
incredible team of people working hard on it in ways that
9:01
go well above and beyond the Call of Duty.
9:04
And we'll talk about this with with Dash from the Banner.
9:05
But I think there are aspects of Doctor Who in this era that are
9:08
just done for the love of it. And I think that for the first
9:12
time in many, many years people are having fun with it.
9:15
It's a real sense of purpose and direction.
9:17
So I've got so much time for it. But also personally I I I find
9:22
it hard to be objective about it because I am.
9:24
Sylvester McCoy is my Doctor. Ironically, Sylvester McCoy is
9:29
my Doctor, but I most of his stuff I missed because I was
9:35
introduced to Semester Boy through a friend's school who
9:38
showed me remnants of the dialects, and I was a Doctor Who
9:40
found for life from that point on.
9:42
But my parents were Coronation Street watchers and we didn't
9:46
have a video recorder, so there was absolutely no way of
9:49
watching Doctor Who back in those days.
9:51
There was no iPlayer, No, I mean no video recorder.
9:55
Just it didn't have. We bought a video recorder just
9:58
before the 1st episode of Ghost Light and then the BBC went and
10:02
cancelled Doctor Who. So we watched.
10:04
I saw four. I don't think I even saw all of
10:07
remembrance. Actually, I think it was just
10:08
episodes 2-3 and four. So I saw, you know, 3 3/4 of
10:13
Sylvester Mccoy's stories and then went into this wilderness
10:17
where I think I probably watched much more Jon Pert with him
10:20
because the BBC went through a phase of just repeating the Sea
10:25
Devils and then we got the Demons plan of the dialects.
10:28
For whatever reason they were on a big personally drive and they
10:32
were the ones that that were out on video as well.
10:35
So when when I started to find people who had Doctor Who
10:38
videos, they were things like Day of the Daleks and they were
10:41
quite slow to to release Mccoy's stuff.
10:46
So season 24 coming to your second question would have been
10:53
discovered quite late on really they were they were releasing
10:56
the the later two seasons more I think maybe.
11:01
I think time in the Rani might have been the 1st to come out on
11:04
video. Either that or dragon fire.
11:06
Those were the the first two I saw and you can.
11:08
Dragon Fire was the first I got and I was getting them as they
11:11
were coming out. You can see the log pick.
11:13
They Dragon Fire was a big fan favorite and was doing and
11:17
looked the most like Doctor Who. It you know, it's Spacey.
11:23
It sort of vaguely has a more serious tone, although I'm not
11:27
sure. It's still pretty camp.
11:30
It's still pretty camp time in the Ronnie has got, you know,
11:33
special effects to die for. It looks great.
11:36
It's a very glossy production. So though you can sort of see
11:38
why in the 90s those were the ones where they were going.
11:41
We we should put those out first.
11:42
I think Delta might have been the last.
11:45
It was really late, Delta. Yeah.
11:47
It was the time Steve Cole was in because it had one of those
11:50
sort of swirlyish covers. Yeah, there was definitely some
11:53
swirl in the Delta cover. And so I'm what I wonder if it
11:59
was still considered the embarrassment of this of the
12:02
season. It certainly feels as though
12:06
it's the one that people didn't talk about or just it wasn't
12:10
even talked about in in a bad way like time in the Rani.
12:13
People were were really dissing in the 90s.
12:16
Yes. Delta the man.
12:18
Just just you just didn't mention it and it and it didn't
12:21
look like Doctor Who the, you know, the book cover when it
12:23
came out, just looked it looked, you looked at it and you went,
12:25
that doesn't quite look like a a Doctor Who story.
12:29
It's a bit odd and it's called Delta and the Bannermen, which
12:31
is not really a Doctor Who title.
12:33
It's a play on Echo and the Bunnymen, you know, it's it's a
12:36
weird old title. It's a weird old story.
12:38
So there was definitely the last one I saw, and I guess by the by
12:45
the time I saw it, I'd read the discontinuity guide.
12:47
So I was expecting something that was fun.
12:50
And I was also kind of enlightened enough not to have
12:54
written off season 24, though I felt it was kind of the the
12:57
weakest of the three. Well, I mean, I think you'd be.
13:01
I think you'd be pretty hard pushed to argue that season 24
13:04
wasn't the weakest of Mccoy's 3. Season James I I hate to
13:08
disagree with you there, but Season 24 is my favorite of the
13:12
three of McCoy seasons. That's not.
13:13
That's not quite the same thing though.
13:15
No, we're going back to being objective and.
13:18
Yeah, you know, I'd say I'm saying objectively it's the
13:20
weakest of the three. It's a show with a new lease of
13:24
life. It's a show being in a really
13:26
exciting direction and it hits it's stride in season 25 and it
13:32
has this new found confidence, which is all built on season 24.
13:36
But it's not arrived yet and I think that there are things
13:39
about season 24 that don't quite gel and it's a very uneven
13:44
season. What what is interesting to me
13:47
looking at it now is how this perception that kind of the the
13:52
strongest story is Dragonfire which was you know won all the
13:55
polls at the time. It that seems to have been
13:57
maintained. I think Dragonfire still won the
14:00
most the highest position in. The in the recent past, although
14:04
listening to a lot of podcasts, I'm hearing that opinion sort of
14:08
change a bit, but that people are sort of considering that the
14:12
least ambitious of the four. So the least ambitious and I
14:16
would say that the the scrappiest to look at I I just
14:18
think it's it's it's the one where the money has started to
14:21
run out and and it looks a bit in terms.
14:25
Of like plot holes and things like that.
14:27
I think it's, I mean there's like, right?
14:29
Like, like a lot of the stories in the Carmel era, it doesn't
14:32
have enough time to tell the story.
14:33
It wants to. It needs longer.
14:35
It's. The biggest flaw, don't you
14:36
think, as a scripted itself, is it he can't get it dumped to the
14:40
time. He wants everything to be about
14:42
an episode longer than it is. It's a flaw here.
14:45
So to to try and see it from Carmel's perspective, I think
14:48
what he's doing is writing for a different place of television.
14:51
I think he's, I think he's writing.
14:53
I think he's writing with a comic strip sensibility.
14:56
We know that. We know that he was.
14:57
That was one of his the formative ideas in his
15:01
conception of Doctor Who. I think he's got an idea of what
15:04
television is going to look like later on.
15:06
I think he's think he's, if you look forward to kind of Buffy
15:08
the Vampire Slayer or The West Wing Way, you know, they are
15:10
able to deliver that amount of dialogue.
15:12
And you look at the way most of it is filmed and it's so
15:15
ponderous and it's filmed in that old fashioned BBC way.
15:18
And I can sort of feel Carmel's frustration where he's just like
15:21
actually I delivered a script that should have worked on time.
15:24
It was directed at the wrong pace and I think many of these
15:27
stories just feel like they've been filmed in a very old
15:32
fashioned way when actually they need a new to that.
15:35
You know, you need a Graham Harper to come in and direct
15:37
some of these. And it would have been really
15:38
interesting to see if they got directors that had slightly more
15:42
dynamism and slightly more kind of drive to deliver the script
15:46
that as I think they probably looked on the page.
15:49
And there's two occasions though where the pace is right for the
15:54
script on the back and that I think remembrance on the whole
15:58
is fairly pace, especially the last episode, and I think Curse
16:00
of Fenrik as well, especially the last episode that has a
16:04
furious pace. I don't know if it's a lot of
16:06
chop because it's a lot of short scenes, but it certainly it feel
16:11
it feels like 90s TV to me because of Frederick rather than
16:14
late late 80s. And remember, it certainly does.
16:16
But I think remembrance is very cleverly written.
16:18
I think that actually remembrance is written in such a
16:21
a pithy way. You know that that dialogue is
16:25
really, I mean the Benaranovich's dialogue I think
16:27
is head and shoulders above anything around it.
16:30
He just knows how to write really really good characters
16:33
and entertaining 1 liners. And also Paul.
16:37
Can you pull a line out of your head right now?
16:40
Oh, unlimited rice, pudding, etcetera, etcetera.
16:42
Oh, do you know which one came to me?
16:43
And it's quite a long one as well.
16:45
Do you doubt the non terrestrial nature of the Daleks?
16:47
I mean, examine this one. I'll bet it gets ask you a
16:50
scientific advisor. I mean, it just trips off the
16:52
tongue. I used to quote in The
16:54
Playground that Daleks are such boring conversationalists.
16:57
You know, it's it's written in like a comic strip maybe and and
17:01
so that. But then Sylvester McCoy and
17:03
Sophie Aldridge know that they get the pace right?
17:06
You you. I think that McCoy is often
17:09
criticized for his inability to deliver dialogue.
17:12
I'm not sure he's given sufficient credit for pacing
17:16
dialogue. Well, I'm sure he sometimes
17:18
fumbles the odd line and he's not great when he hasn't done
17:21
his homework. But on television, I think he
17:25
understands he's he's a physical performer.
17:28
He understands how to time the dialogue to match what's on
17:32
screen. It's never dull when he's on
17:33
screen. It's never slow when he's on
17:35
screen. I just think there's quite a lot
17:37
of guest cast that don't necessarily pick on that pace in
17:41
certain stories. I find him.
17:43
I I've got a a complete terrible with McCoy.
17:45
I used to find him. He used to be my least favorite
17:48
performer as the Doctor, and now he's one of my favourites.
17:51
And it's because he's I kind of a dangerous actor.
17:54
You never know what you're going to get because he throws himself
17:56
so wholeheartedly into what he's doing.
17:59
Yeah. And it's kind of if we're going
18:00
to go one way or the other, he's going to go over a Cliff or he's
18:03
going to land it in the most amazing way possible.
18:06
And either way, I'm on edge to see which way it's going to go.
18:09
So for every sort of, I don't know, more gain if they're dead,
18:14
which you know, is terrible, you get that sequencing ghost light
18:17
where there are, you know, he's comforting Ace and talking
18:21
about, you know, burnt toast and bus stations and.
18:24
And it's absolutely yeah. So much a ghost light.
18:30
I don't think he delivers a bad line in in ghost light.
18:32
I'll. Put a name.
18:34
One or two, but there's not many, there's not many.
18:37
And this is it's the same as if he finishes, he's.
18:40
He's treading this kind of this line between I, I again, I think
18:46
what he does is is sort of unsung because he makes it look
18:49
easier than it is this kind of clown who suddenly gets serious.
18:52
I know it's been sort of parading.
18:53
I think he's not done himself any favours with some of his big
18:56
Finnish performances in which he does that but not as well.
18:59
But on television, I think he makes it look effortless but
19:02
he's he's constantly judging pace.
19:04
He's he's like a he's he's like a jazz musician.
19:09
And like you said there, it's only when, because he can be
19:11
brilliant with big, you go listen to Damaged Goods.
19:14
He's sublime in that, but it's when he's prepared and you know
19:18
when he's prepared. You can tell when he you can
19:20
tell when he's had time, when he's not been off hobnobbing
19:23
with Peter Jackson, when he's actually had time to sit down
19:25
with the script. Well, I can swing this back
19:27
around to season 24 via McCoy because I have a theory that
19:33
take time and run out of the equation.
19:34
Because I don't. They didn't know they were
19:36
writing for McCoy and that's just everybody finding their
19:39
feet from Paradise Hours onwards.
19:42
McCoy is kind of the darkest thing in season 24 because
19:45
everything around him is so camp and outrageous and the
19:48
characters are so big and I think McCoy just looks around
19:51
him and goes, I can't top this and be a feasible character.
19:56
And so he gets moments in paradise, hours in dirt and
19:58
abandonment, and in dragon fire that are kind of dark and
20:02
haunting. I love him in this season.
20:05
I agree. I think he learns as he goes on.
20:07
I think he's better in this than he is in in Paradise Towers.
20:10
I think in Paradise Towers you can see the points where he's
20:14
going, this is how this is how I can make it work and other
20:17
points where he's slightly floundering Delta from the
20:19
Bannerman. I think he's it's like he's
20:21
suddenly worked it out and he is blessed with writing that,
20:26
compliments that as well. The cliffhanger to episode 2,
20:30
where he just storms him with righteous in indignation as his
20:35
only weapon. That is, that's the mould for
20:37
his doctor from then on, and he nails it.
20:40
But the writing nails it as well.
20:42
But also, like awkwardly comforting Ray outside the
20:46
laundry house, love has never been known for its rationality.
20:49
Looking so mournful. I mean, he's great in this.
20:53
And again, but then plaudits to the writing and to the script
20:57
editing. What doctor?
21:00
Certainly in recent years maybe? I mean, what doctor since?
21:05
Hurt me, at least. Elton has been given the kind of
21:08
space in a story to to do that, to do character development, do
21:13
little character moments. No, I don't think Davison
21:16
definitely. Doesn't get to do it.
21:18
Not even, I mean. Maybe Tom in his first couple of
21:20
years, but later on, no, because he's just so out of control that
21:24
I think he would lose those moments anyway.
21:27
But given a. Scene that is entirely based on
21:30
character development and not plot development.
21:32
There's no the dance scene is not is not plot.
21:35
It's it's all seen. It's all character.
21:39
What a what a gift for for the cast.
21:40
What a gift for the show as well.
21:42
Suddenly it's going no, we can do this.
21:43
We can do, we can do reality as well as running down corridors
21:48
and he brings. So you were right when you said
21:49
he brings so much physicality sort of role.
21:52
I can't think of another doctor that does physical comedy as
21:55
well as McCoy. The bit where she starts dancing
21:58
with him and he hasn't got a clue what he's doing, he's
22:00
trying to twirl her around. That's a wonderful matter.
22:03
I don't. It's hard to tell who's leading
22:05
who in that she. Dives.
22:07
Into his arms and and and he has this look on his face like what
22:11
the hell I'm dancing. It's it's so beautiful.
22:13
It's touching. I I I love this story.
22:16
For the space it has around the events the space to allow things
22:20
to breathe and actually the the extended version on the Blu-ray,
22:25
it's the only one that's worth it on on the season 24 Blu-ray.
22:28
It's the only one. Why is that?
22:30
But the others just don't have that much more material of
22:32
always. Why this one?
22:34
Oh, why this? One, because the stuff that was
22:37
cut wasn't cut because it was no good.
22:40
It was just cut because it was sort of not plot, and you
22:43
actually get a little bit more world building.
22:46
There's also a lot of, there's a lot of characters in this story.
22:49
A lot of them get dispatched rather conveniently before the
22:53
end, but certainly at the start you're establishing a really big
22:58
cast and it's got a it's got an unusually grand scale for for
23:04
Doctor Who of any era, really. I know we're in a holiday camp
23:07
and that's there's something gloriously kind of knowing about
23:11
the fact that that's the scale that they know Doctor Who can
23:13
do. You know, it's it's a it's a
23:15
Doctor Who, isn't it? We're.
23:16
Promising us Disneyland and we get Shangri-La in Wales.
23:21
Look at all the extras. Look at, look at the number of
23:23
look at the children in those scenes.
23:25
It it feels like a populated world.
23:28
And I I I think that's a a gift to the show because it suddenly
23:33
takes time to establish its reality before plunging it into
23:36
kind of all kinds of chaos. Well, I think it.
23:38
Surrounds you with characters that you care about as well,
23:41
which we haven't really done in Doctor Who for quite a few
23:44
years, you know. No, no, no, we haven't.
23:46
And good. Characters.
23:47
They're well. Written.
23:48
They're well-rounded and funny all.
23:50
Kinds of different cultures. It's.
23:52
It's establishing several different worlds as well.
23:54
It's very ambitious and yet doing it in this very unassuming
23:58
way I've recently. Covered season 22 and Strictly
24:01
come Hamster. And I'll tell you now though,
24:02
they were trying to make some characters funny in that.
24:05
But they're all bleak. They're nasty characters out
24:07
there. Most of them get killed in
24:09
horrible ways and most of them deserve it, whereas these people
24:13
are just so lovely and showy and my in with a character is
24:16
usually they don't make me laugh.
24:18
How funny are they? And these are really charmingly
24:21
funny characters, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
24:24
Charmingly funny. Well pitched, well acted.
24:27
And it doesn't of all of season 24, it it's the least kind of
24:32
uneven in terms of performances. It feels like they all get it
24:36
somehow. I feel like the the wrap party
24:39
is another thing that it's just a a demonstration of they
24:42
they're all kind of relaxing into this show like it feels
24:45
like a production team that's happy that knows what it's doing
24:49
and a cast that have got on board and gone.
24:50
Yeah, yeah, we we're all on board with this.
24:52
We all have Maybe Ken Dodd is the kind of exception that
24:55
obviously he was only filming for kind of one one night shoot
24:58
but the others all just feel like of of a piece.
25:01
And I think it's it sets the tone for the two years that that
25:06
is to follow which by all accounts you know all the the
25:09
special features are cast. Talking about really happy
25:12
times. You you look at special features
25:14
from kind of season 2122. You know, it's just nightmare
25:17
after nightmare and people falling out and people not
25:20
having enough time to do stuff and just endless frustration and
25:23
producing a script editor who gradually beginning to loathe
25:27
each other. From this point onwards you get
25:30
the sense the Doctor Who was a a healthy place to work and a
25:33
happy place to work and that's there's something wonderful
25:35
about that that absolutely comes across on the screen as well
25:38
the. The thing I cribbed most from
25:41
the Richard Molesworth JNT Diaries is that after the
25:45
cancellation, after trial of a time on all the drama that
25:48
happened that season, behind the scenes JN TS back in the office
25:52
and he's working hard to make the show work.
25:54
And it's on the screen. You can see it, and you're
25:57
right, it's so much smoother. The tone is smoother, you know,
26:01
and everything's working, you know, not everything's working.
26:04
It's it's cheap television, so they can't always pull
26:06
everything off. But it doesn't feel like two
26:10
people pulling the show in different directions.
26:12
No it doesn't. It feels like.
26:13
Actually, it feels like Cartmel pushing the show in a direction
26:16
and J&T going, yeah, all right, all right, well, look, I mean,
26:22
we've talked a lot, but we should probably go in and watch
26:24
episode one. What do you reckon I would have
26:26
said? So yeah.
26:29
I think we could probably talk about the Sylvester McCoy here
26:31
for about 5 hours. We could.
26:33
I'm assuming you want. To go to bed at some point.
26:35
At some point I. Probably ought to yet.
26:36
So it's a It's a work night. Why don't you count?
26:39
Us in, then give me 5 seconds, OK?
26:42
Are you all ready? We're going in. 54321 play.
26:51
Can I be Utterly? Cliched and ask you the
26:54
question. I ask everybody and that is,
26:56
what is your favorite Doctor Who titles and why is it this, it's
27:00
this. Because oh, so many reasons.
27:03
But I guess probably like 98% nostalgia.
27:07
There's something about that explosion at the start, and the
27:11
Norways it makes still makes me come out in goose pimples.
27:16
It literally comes. At you, doesn't it?
27:18
And I. Think.
27:19
I mean, I think objectively this is a one of the better theme
27:23
arrangements as well. I think it keeps the weirdness
27:25
of Deeley Derbyshire's sounds. It's it's a much stranger sound
27:30
than Peter Howell's theme and certainly more more than Dominic
27:34
Lynn's. But it's got a pace to it that
27:36
is absolutely right for this era of the show.
27:39
I think it's a a really. I mean I'm going to talk more
27:42
about Keth McCulloch, I shall warn you, because I think he is
27:45
a bit of an unsung hero. Oh.
27:47
You're speaking my language, James.
27:50
I love Kev. In fact, I was listening to the
27:52
time when the Rani soundtrack at work this week.
27:53
So no shame. Look at this.
27:57
We've got a full scale battle in a quarry and it's great, except
28:02
that they're fighting action men, I was.
28:05
Reading that this was not originally going to be filmed,
28:08
all of this, it was. It started on the spaceship and
28:11
JNT said no, let's start with a bang.
28:14
I'll get your I'll get your explosions, Let's start with the
28:17
bang. He's absolutely right.
28:18
And he has Roy Scammell doing an amazing fall off a Cliff as
28:22
well. It's like harking back to the
28:24
the the good old days, isn't it? In more ways than one.
28:27
The I also understand that Jonathan Turner was furious when
28:31
he saw the masks they'd bought. And I mean, this is a a failure
28:38
of costume design, isn't it? Well, the mouth.
28:42
The mouth just the. Mouths don't open, but I think
28:44
that's a partly a rescue job. I feel like they bought
28:48
something that was basically a joke shop mask and they had and
28:52
at the on the morning itself they had to kind of work out
28:55
something. And so the the face makeup is
28:57
the rescue job rather than the original intention, you know, I
29:01
say. Something about the tone of this
29:03
season, because everybody says this is a very light camp season
29:07
and this is opened with, you know, the genocide genocide of a
29:11
race. There's, there's.
29:14
Dark ideas this season, and it plants in.
29:16
The right way. You know, before taking us to a
29:18
camp, a camp camp, Look how good this looks as well.
29:24
It's great. And it's night shooting as well.
29:26
Isn't it automatically atmospheric?
29:29
There's something so iconic about and this is the first
29:33
appearance of the the question mark umbrella, isn't it?
29:36
Doesn't this? Feel like it's the start of a
29:39
Doctor Who comic strip? This bit here?
29:41
A toe port? It looks like it, yeah.
29:43
But it sort of has a scale. They've by filming at night and
29:48
filming against the backdrop of something huge, they've given it
29:51
a kind of comic book scale, haven't they?
29:53
And it's very well lit. And here's Ken.
29:55
Dodd and here's Ken. Dodd.
29:58
I won't hear a word against him well.
30:02
I'm not going to say a word against him.
30:03
I think he's wonderful. I think it's wonderful to have
30:06
him here and I think he's very well cast.
30:08
I suspect that there's a better performance in him if he'd been
30:12
given a bit more direction possibly.
30:14
And I'm very pleased that the moment he died was hot where it
30:18
was, because there is an extended version of his death
30:21
scene that is a little you can see the.
30:24
Full embarrassing glory of But again I I don't know that he the
30:30
the story that McCoy tells us that he was sort of floundering
30:33
and Chris Clough and JNT were sitting in mocking in the OB van
30:38
sort of mocking him going what what the hell is he doing well.
30:41
Direct your cast, then. I love Mccoy's lying there as
30:44
well, he goes. You mean 1010 million people
30:47
have come here, This miserable place, you know?
30:50
But this is, and also we should say what a great story from Mel,
30:56
who often is not given great stuff to do or great costumes to
31:00
work in, and here it just feels like she's at home.
31:02
And what's Bonnie Langford? In the equivalent of a musical,
31:06
of course she's at home and. Speaking of musical theatre
31:09
legends, here is Stubby K oh. Can you explain?
31:13
That please, because my musical theatre history is not great.
31:15
Well. Like like all of the guest stars
31:21
in this piece, he's kind of outside my frame of reference,
31:24
except that he's the guy who first sang Sit Down, You're
31:27
rocking the Boat. So he is a absolute Broadway
31:31
lend. Like when Bonnie Langford gets
31:33
excited about working in Sabi K it is basically like, you know,
31:37
this is royalty in musical for its terms.
31:40
And he was in so many of those Golden Era musicals and here he
31:44
is just delivering a really charming performance on on
31:47
Doctor Who now, my other half. Gets annoyed by these two
31:49
because he thinks they're utterly superfluous to the
31:52
story, and I think he's probably right.
31:57
I don't care. I really enjoy spending time
31:59
with them. Yeah, you could.
32:03
You could cut. You could cut this strand.
32:06
That's not how we analyse television though, is it?
32:09
They're the B plot. Well, the C plot, they're they
32:12
are in modern drama terms, they're what would be called the
32:14
C plot, the comic C plot. The the one that doesn't have a
32:18
massive impact on on the storyline, but which is there to
32:20
provide some, you know, variation games, I'm not sure.
32:23
He analysis TV at all. If I'm honest, it's
32:25
interminable. Doing a podcast with him.
32:28
You know, although a lot's happened straight away.
32:31
We've got the, you know, the the near genocide.
32:33
We're on the toll port. Suddenly there's a space.
32:35
This is. Where it's been haunted down.
32:38
This is where I think. The the extended version has the
32:40
edge because it just allows a little bit more breathing space
32:43
and this scene is a bit longer and rather than going straight
32:45
into that, which I love this but I love the way they cheer him
32:48
when he comes out as a human. That's It's so funny.
32:51
It's so, oh, I love the. Costume.
32:52
It's mental, isn't it? Yeah, no, it's perfect.
32:55
But we get more of that costume in the extended version, and
32:57
actually it establishes it in a slightly more convincing way.
33:00
And this whole bit, because the the the Toll Master of it is a
33:03
very short section of the episode really, and it's just
33:06
gives it a bit longer to establish this before we go
33:08
flying off to somewhere else I love.
33:10
This as well. They've won this fabulous
33:12
holiday, they're off to Disneyland in the 50s and
33:14
they're going to this dreadful old bus.
33:16
It's so Doctor's perfect, isn't it?
33:18
It's very Doctor Who. Yeah, and the doctor knows
33:23
straight away, doesn't he? Their their reputation of this
33:26
holiday tours company. He's not going to get in that
33:29
bus. So what happens at the second
33:32
they take off? They smash into that piece of
33:35
equipment and down they go. Yeah, he's.
33:40
Fabulous as well. I don't know what else he's
33:41
done. Johnny Dennis.
33:44
No, I. Couldn't tell you, but he's
33:47
fabulous, Johnny Dennis. Playing Murray and I think he's
33:49
he's again just a a pro who's gets the tone of this straight
33:56
and that's the the miracle is that they all get the tone of
33:58
this in a way that not everyone got the tone of Paradise Towers,
34:02
no. Yeah, and you know it's awkward
34:05
because of it. Whereas whereas this it feels
34:07
like this is all this would be a much harder.
34:09
One to read. I know they didn't have tone.
34:11
Meetings at this point, but it does feel like they have.
34:14
But this one, which is balancing genocide with the holiday,
34:17
somehow they all read the scripts and went, Yep, we get
34:19
it. I mean, Don.
34:20
Henderson knows exactly what he's doing, doesn't he?
34:23
He is the Hissable villain. There's nothing redeeming about
34:27
him at all. But he's genuinely scary as
34:30
well. You can totally believe in him
34:32
as a a genocidal maniac. What?
34:34
I don't know. Have you ever watched Red Dwarf?
34:37
Yes, he. Plays the He was a.
34:39
Simulant, wasn't he? He was a simulant.
34:42
Yes, it was a very. Similar series.
34:45
No, it was when the series had gone slightly jumped the shark.
34:49
It was after one of the writers left and I can't remember
34:51
whether it was Doug Grant or Rob Naylor but or Rob Grant and Doug
34:55
Naylor Is I there. I mean you shouldn't have to
34:59
write on a series and expect anyone to remember the first
35:02
names. But one of them had left and and
35:05
that whole season is a little bit, is a little bit weak.
35:09
But I don't. Even think there's anything
35:11
knowing in his performance and there's a lot of arched eyebrows
35:13
in season 24. He knows he's just this
35:16
loathsome evil bastard and he's playing it for real.
35:21
Yeah, he's great. And I think he's.
35:23
Done things like the spiked eyebrows, That's his idea.
35:25
The webbed fingers is his idea. I mean, it's not.
35:28
Subtle, the bit where he's chewing, that bit of meat.
35:33
I'm not saying they're subtle ideas, but they're good ideas.
35:37
If anyone's going to eat some raw meat in any story, it might
35:39
as well be this one. You know better this than the
35:42
two doctors. Yes, I quite like the two
35:45
doctors. But yeah, do you know what?
35:48
There's something about Doctor Who going out in the bright,
35:51
breezy countryside. Our door, I think people.
35:55
Don't. Maybe don't forget this, Maybe
35:57
people don't go and walk to their families anymore.
35:58
But when I was growing up, the fact that what would otherwise
36:02
be quite a boring walk in the countryside looked a bit like an
36:05
episode of Doctor Who. It's absolute saving grace.
36:08
So you know what mine was? I had woods the back of my
36:10
house, so every like there you go.
36:13
Mummies. Were chasing me about it was the
36:15
best time, yeah. But don't be afraid, the tree
36:17
won't harm you, yes. Indeed.
36:20
Would you stop mocking Season 22, please?
36:24
I like Season 22. I'm soggy.
36:27
And Doctor Who, come on, it's great.
36:29
It's. And it's doing.
36:30
I mean, I wish, I wish it had maybe had the guts to go a
36:34
little bit further with with the songs and the musical theatre.
36:37
But we do get live music and we also get a soundtrack that draws
36:41
from 50s music in a way that is so perfect.
36:46
In fact, what this when I first saw this, and as I say, this was
36:49
the last McCauley story I ever watched.
36:53
So we were well into the 90s by the time I watched it.
36:55
What it reminded me of most of the time was heartbeat, which
37:00
was very big at the time. And of course the gimmick of
37:02
heartbeat was it was kind of exciting stories about a
37:04
policeman. But the soundtrack was all 60s
37:07
classes, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I come episode 2
37:12
when we're listening to Lollipop during the suspense sequence
37:15
whilst the soldiers are going about, and then episode 3 where
37:18
you've got that crazy electric guitar going during the climax.
37:22
It's just, do you think this is Mcculloch's most comfortable
37:26
soundtrack? I feel like he feels very
37:28
confident in this one. I think he's.
37:30
Better than that. I think he's very comfortable
37:32
here. He's obviously are.
37:33
You imagine, I don't think you can imagine any other Doctor Who
37:37
composer from this era, maybe from any era, doing the 50s
37:40
stuff with this kind of panache, with the equipment they had at
37:44
the time, certainly and and there's no other, they couldn't
37:48
have got any of the others up on the stage to play with the band
37:50
in the way that McCulloch does here.
37:53
I just think that his, I think he's very confident as well when
37:56
writing in a slightly more modern style.
37:57
And I think there are qualities to his music that are now
37:59
slightly overlooked because this, the his sound samples are
38:03
have dated and it's, you know, it sounds very much of its time.
38:06
But his use of harmony, his use of tonality, his use of rhythm
38:09
is really exciting and really daring.
38:11
And there's nothing that sounds like this on television from
38:13
this era. I think his score.
38:15
For Tom and the Ronnie is excellent because it's so weird.
38:19
He's just he he's just frozen. So he jams two things together
38:22
that. That that thing of by tonality
38:24
where he goes, yeah, I'm going to write this theme, I'm going
38:26
to write this theme. There's a point where he has,
38:29
he's got a theme that is for the planet and he's got a theme
38:31
that's for the Doctor and he's got a theme that's for the
38:33
tetraps and he just buns them all together.
38:35
And that's actually a really sophisticated thing to do,
38:37
whereas other composers might have kind of lost it by trying
38:39
to somehow weave their way. You know, Peter Howell would
38:42
have done a a beautiful segue from 1 theme to the next, which
38:44
is something he does very well. Kef just goes, no, let's have
38:47
them all at the same time. And it works because it's a
38:49
point of high tension. He's not afraid to go bananas as
38:52
well with sound, which I love. Oh, here we go.
38:55
So here we are at Shangri-La. The bus is like I say look at
38:59
all the yeah. So I mean, again, on a really
39:01
small scale, this has got an epic sensibility.
39:04
Look at that shot, Look at that low angle shot.
39:06
Look at all the people in the scene.
39:07
There's John Nathan's dog. Oh, Pepsi.
39:10
I do. You know, I think Chris Clough
39:12
is very, very competent on location.
39:16
I do sometimes think he loses a bit in the studio, but because
39:20
this is all on location, it's. All on location great.
39:24
This is better. Director than dragon fire, I
39:27
think. And.
39:28
He's so Burton now. Who's this actor he was in?
39:32
He was again outside my frame of Richard Davis, outside of my
39:36
frame of reference, because all the stuff he was in is stuff
39:39
that I didn't watch. But he was.
39:40
He was well known, I remember. Him being in an episode of 1
39:44
Foot in the Grave, which was absolutely hilarious, but he
39:47
turned up in all the comedies. In all, he was a.
39:50
Yeah, he was a comedy staple, but he had a long running role
39:53
in a school comedy, I think. He's one of those people.
39:57
If you look at his IMDb, he was never our work, yeah.
40:00
Yeah, and he's so naturalistic here.
40:02
He again, he gets the tone. He's a he's a character who
40:05
takes his job very seriously. This holiday camp is the most
40:08
important thing to him. I love how I love how believable
40:11
these scenes are. And you're right.
40:14
Look how many extras there are there.
40:19
They've landed a just a beautiful location there as
40:21
well. I mean obviously they've they've
40:24
gone to a butlands that apparently there was their worst
40:26
people staying here the. Location has just got even more
40:30
beautiful as I just spotted Billy there as well.
40:33
Are we a fan of Billy? Oh, I think he's.
40:35
Quite pretty, yeah. I'm not sure he's the best actor
40:37
in the world, but never mind. He's nice to look at.
40:40
He's fine. Though he's he does what that
40:42
character needs to do, you know? Do you know, I think works so
40:45
well with Mel as you throw into and so many of her stories are
40:50
crazy science fiction stories and she sort of loses her way a
40:54
bit. But you throw her into a natural
40:55
setting and Bonnie is perfectly at home.
40:58
What's sad is, you know you when we watch episode 3, she gets
41:02
about two lies. In episode 3, she's completely
41:05
sort of awake, heard to me. Because there's.
41:07
So much going. On and she's.
41:09
Sort of detached from the plot by that stage, but she's got a
41:12
wonderful role to play here in that she's suddenly this
41:17
character, this kind of two-dimensional character that's
41:19
been forced upon her. Makes sense because she's
41:23
someone who's always going to try and be the friend and she's
41:25
put into a room with someone who can't trust anyone and the
41:28
tension in those scenes is unbearable.
41:31
You've got someone being absolutely lovely and it's just
41:33
thrown back in their face, but she's not going to give up on
41:35
them. I I think Mel comes across
41:37
really well here. I'd love.
41:39
The bit more scenes like that to.
41:40
We'll get there, but. Where they just both sit down on
41:43
the bed once the baby's born and it just fades into the morning
41:47
and you just know they've just set up all night basically
41:50
talking. Did you see McCoy there with
41:51
that satellite? Like playing with all the parts
41:54
of it? And that's what I mean about him
41:55
being like such a physical he's always got.
41:57
Something going on. He's always got business in it.
41:59
What? What business?
42:00
Can I do in this? Yeah.
42:05
And look how he's handling that prop and just bless him.
42:09
It's very delicate. Take care of it please.
42:15
It's the only quad crystal this side of the nebula, you know.
42:21
My other half got me one of those umbrellas for Christmas.
42:23
Oh, Mark. 'S got one as well, he thought.
42:26
It was going to be like this sort of joke present and he was
42:28
a bit shocked when I just spent. I saw Christmas.
42:30
Day hugging. Hugging an umbrella, I was like,
42:32
no, I don't need any other presents.
42:33
You were so. Proud, but there was on the back
42:35
under the. Tree.
42:36
I was delighted. Put it up.
42:38
I put it down again. I haven't dared take it out in
42:42
the rain yet. You have the oh I did that this
42:44
morning. I was pissing down the windows
42:46
of that are smashed. I think it's, I think they've
42:50
actually put something on them to look smart because they
42:53
smashed when the when the satellite hit them almost
42:56
actually. Drop it, don't they?
42:57
Later. Yeah.
42:59
They did, they did. But I think, I think that's just
43:01
clever dressing. Actually.
43:03
I don't think they did smash the windows.
43:05
Oh look, he's. Ray.
43:06
Jesus, she's turned up and we haven't even mentioned it.
43:08
Oh well, what? Do we think of Ray?
43:10
Oh, now. I don't know how she would have
43:12
worked as a companion, but as a sort of pseudo companion in this
43:16
story, I think she's superb. She's so nice.
43:21
It's a. Slightly ill advised accent.
43:25
Well, yes, but that's how everyone, well, sounds to me
43:27
anyway, so. Yes, I'm I'm not doubting his
43:32
authenticity as a fake Welsh accent.
43:35
I think that the accent gets in the way of her performance.
43:38
I think it gives her a sing song quality, which is not quite what
43:41
she would have done if she'd been acting it without without
43:44
the shackles of a of of an accent that she hasn't really
43:46
had been given the time to learn means her comedy.
43:49
Lines are a bit overplayed. So when later when she goes, oh,
43:51
he was ionized, you know, it's all very stressed, but I love
43:55
that. Life.
43:55
I don't know. Two reasons I do.
43:58
But she's. Very.
43:59
The the point is, she's really likable, you know, And we're
44:03
we're doing something we've never ever done before, really.
44:05
And Doctor Who is this weird relationship drama between her
44:08
and Billy and Billy falling for Delta.
44:10
Yes. And the point is we have to like
44:12
her in order to feel for her when she realizes in that
44:15
glorious scene when Billy looks at Delta that she's not the
44:19
person he's interested in. Oh, here we go.
44:22
Ken Dodd. So this is where I.
44:24
Just think he he's he's he's still in comedy mode and if he'd
44:28
been given up just a prod in a a slightly different direction
44:30
he'd have played it down a bit or done real terror because I
44:34
think he had it in him because there's.
44:36
An intensity to Henderson here. I mean, he's got a smile on his
44:39
face, but he knows he's going to kill him.
44:43
I mean, that's just badly directed because why is he
44:44
running towards the wall, yeah. And it's a nice show.
44:49
End of. A night This is where we know.
44:50
Gabbrock is truly evil because he's just shot Ken Dodd in the
44:53
back. That's the most evil thing you
44:55
could have done in 1987. And I want to say just, oh, I
45:00
love this. I love.
45:00
This more somewhere and look at now.
45:02
You have to keep watching McCoy for his Apple business because
45:05
he's got something different to do with it.
45:06
Every time you the pan, the IT pans back to him.
45:09
He's doing something a little bit different with the IT goes
45:11
to where he. Gets he tickles his.
45:13
He's worked all that. Hang on, I've got to.
45:15
Keep an eye on this Apple look all these extras.
45:18
It's for a fully pop it's it's it's such a realistic setup it's
45:21
it's interesting because when you.
45:22
Watch the behind the sofa, Bonnie says.
45:24
At the end of it, she goes. It felt like more of a
45:27
production than what hit the screen when she does doesn't.
45:30
She yeah, and I don't agree. With her in, in Doctor Who
45:33
terms, this is quite a big production maybe.
45:36
It looks a bit small fright. I don't think Bonnie Langford
45:38
watches a lot of Doctor Who this.
45:41
Right. This silent scene where Billy
45:42
sits down and they're clearly interested in each other.
45:46
That just would never have happened on the Sabre.
45:48
Never. We're in a We're in a new era
45:51
now. Well, I think I'll get to know
45:55
you dance. Well.
45:58
Look at this one. Look, this is gorgeous.
46:01
Again, it's it's a convincingly populated.
46:04
I mean, that's cleverly filmed because it's not that full, but
46:07
it looks like a proper, full on dance and this is where it goes.
46:11
Full heartbeat. It's the we haven't done this.
46:14
Since black orchid like relaxed like this.
46:17
We haven't, and we should. And in black.
46:21
Orchid It's yeah. Black Orchid is the first
46:26
episode of Black Orchid has a has a kind of charm.
46:28
It's kind of polite and. Mannered, isn't it?
46:31
It's polite and mannered. And and it's intercut with Peter
46:34
Davison stuck in a wall. So you're never allowed to kind
46:38
of forget the the the drama and the the, the hissing man.
46:41
This is just a dance and the only.
46:44
Drama at the moment. The only drama is Ray, Billy and
46:50
Bonnie enjoying herself, but do you know?
46:52
I can believe in that. I don't really, you know,
46:55
genocide, things like that. I don't have any great
46:57
experience of, but heartbreak I do.
47:00
So I'm invested. It's just not what I'm used to
47:03
seeing in Doctor Who and that makes it really refreshing.
47:06
And there's KEF. Oh yeah.
47:10
What were those singers called again?
47:12
Do you know I can't remember they they.
47:15
Did they were like a band? From the Dingle dongles or
47:18
something? Oh, why did Falls fall in love?
47:21
I love this song. Oh, and look.
47:23
At the way he meets her eyes. But McCoy?
47:25
Notices as well, so he's so freed from the accent.
47:28
She doesn't have to say anything there and that look was so
47:31
beautifully judged. And the way he goes all Ray, do
47:35
you want to dance? Because he knows how sad she is.
47:38
Colin wouldn't have done that. Is this our first night time
47:43
camping scene since The Stones of Blood?
47:45
Yes. And I don't think the same sort
47:47
of thing is going on. Different kind of.
47:49
Thing No one's doing their flies up in this one, McCoy.
47:53
Is roasting. Look, it's been dancing a while.
47:59
Why don't people? Like this James?
48:03
I don't. I think I don't.
48:05
I don't. I I understand why people don't
48:07
like it in 1987. Because why?
48:12
Because it's not what they want Doctor Who to be.
48:14
And they're taking themselves very, very serious Even so.
48:16
But the show's just taken. Itself.
48:18
Seriously. For five years, you know?
48:20
And it got cancelled, Yeah. It does.
48:25
This doesn't look like a show taking itself seriously.
48:28
I look, I'm not going to try and psychoanalyze the, you know, the
48:34
Doctor Who audience of 1987. I don't know what the general
48:36
audience would have made of it. But for me, this is much more
48:38
kind of what This is much more palatable television for the
48:41
time, can I ask you? Would this would this have
48:43
enticed you as much as remembrance of the Daleks did?
48:48
Oh yeah, I think so. Because the thing that enticed
48:50
me most about remembrance of the Daleks after the Daleks was
48:53
Sylvester McCoy. And this is a great Sylvester
48:55
McCoy story. And this has got everything.
48:59
Everything I would have wanted. So how old would I have been?
49:02
Eight years old. This has got everything I
49:04
wanted. Then it's got aliens, it's got
49:05
space, it's got the TARDIS, it's got the Doctor, it's got guns
49:08
and and laser pistols and and chases.
49:11
It's got everything. Well, it's got everything.
49:12
I want in it. And that's relationship drama,
49:15
you know, Campness and crazy villains.
49:18
He's good as. Well, this is the guy from the
49:20
Flying Pickets, isn't it? Just, isn't it?
49:24
That's right. After faking his own death, he
49:27
ended up in Doctor Who. I don't think it's a cliffhanger
49:30
land, so do you know, I don't know if it's his delivery or the
49:33
music. There's something about the
49:35
cliffhanger. I think it's trying to be really
49:36
quite scary and it's not. Would you change this music
49:41
though? It's like the Gunfighters Part
49:44
one, isn't it? Oh, look at Mel's pyjamas.
49:48
And it's a double cliffhanger we get.
49:50
We get male screaming at the same time.
49:52
The baby comes out with the puppeteers farm in the mouth,
49:57
OK? Again, maybe not as scary as oh,
49:59
I don't. Care.
50:00
Oh, of course she screams. Of course she does.
50:02
Do you think she's going to be allowed to scream in the new?
50:04
That's pretty. Good.
50:05
Actually, look, it's slimy. It's not clear whether it's.
50:08
I'll tell you what. James That was auctioned off a
50:11
couple of years ago and it was in a terrible state.
50:13
Someone bought it for about 12 grand. 12 grand?
50:16
Yeah. It wasn't you, was it?
50:21
I think this work he's he's got a moment of self sacrifice.
50:25
I don't just kill for money. It's also something I enjoy.
50:27
That's a that's a it's a good line.
50:29
I don't know that he quite announced the delivery.
50:33
I love how. What we should have had is a is
50:36
a crash. Zoom into Mccoy's face going No.
50:41
If it had been a year. Earlier, that's how they would
50:43
have filmed it. Do you know some part?
50:45
We would love to see Colin in this so because he can do gentle
50:48
as well. He'd have been lovely in this
50:51
and it would have suited his doctor and his dynamic with Mel.
50:53
It's my biggest. What if you know is what if
50:56
Colin hadn't been fired? But Carl, Mel has still come in
50:59
and I can see. Him in this season, I can't see
51:01
him in 25, No, I could see him in.
51:03
Paradise hours? Oh, absolutely.
51:05
I could see him in Dragonfly. I can see him in all of them.
51:08
He clearly could see him in time in the running.
51:12
Do you know what I love about this Clipper as well?
51:14
It's the way the fillers dispatched immediately.
51:17
Like about 3 seconds in. But not by the Doctor.
51:19
By the villain of the piece. Well, that's him.
51:22
Done. We know where she is now.
51:24
Oh, it's glorious. Well, look, as we are episode
51:28
one, how do you think that Fares as a scene setter?
51:33
I'm still trying. I'm still puzzling over your
51:36
question about what what people would have made of that and why
51:38
fans didn't like it at the time. I I get why older fans
51:45
determined to take themselves and their show seriously, who
51:48
had ideas about what the show was like when it was greater,
51:54
would have seen that as the bit of a piss take and and not
51:58
engage with it in the way that you need to.
52:00
I think maybe tonally it's a bit ahead of its time because like I
52:03
say it reminds me of mid 90s ITV program.
52:07
You know it's got sort of Midsummer Murders and Heartbeat
52:10
and instead at the time the frame of reference would have
52:14
been Heidi High which was a bit old hat by then and drama was
52:17
all quite gritty. So maybe the general audience
52:19
would have seen it as more of a sitcom than than a drama as
52:23
well, but I don't understand why people would look at that now
52:26
and have a problem with it, or or not see that as I think it's
52:29
stronger than. Some of season. 25 oh.
52:34
Absolutely. I also think as well, as far as
52:36
fandom is concerned, they'd fallen out of love with John
52:40
Nathan Turner and obviously, slowly but surely he was
52:43
bringing in sort of celebrity actors and things like this.
52:47
And this story is like the the the quintessential John Perry
52:51
store, John Perry John Nathan Turner story.
52:54
It's crammed full of celebrity actors.
52:57
Well, he's cast all. His musical theatre heroes.
52:59
I mean one one story appropriately as well.
53:01
But absolutely. Appropriately and and they all
53:04
deliver great performances. It's a bit like, you know, it's
53:09
again, it's it's stuff he builds on because then later on of
53:12
course he absolutely nails it with Nicholas Parsons and people
53:15
were up in arms when he was cast because they thought it's just,
53:17
you know, it's a showbiz, it's sale of the century and they've
53:20
forgotten that these, you know, these celebrities can also act.
53:23
Well, you fight. Me on this, but I really don't
53:26
think I could. I could deliver a strong
53:29
argument that every casting decision you made celebrity
53:32
wise, I don't think he put a foot wrong.
53:35
I think. I think people see them as as
53:37
big names and so that's an issue for some reason I don't think I.
53:41
Don't have an issue with any of this stunt casting.
53:44
I I think you could look at Silver Nemesis and say that that
53:47
is self indulgent. You know, if you're a fan
53:49
determined to kind of criticize celebrity, you know, Nathan
53:52
Turner going to his Broadway legends, I think you know the
53:56
American tourist scenes could all hit the cutting room floor.
53:58
Dare throw. Shade on No.
54:00
Listen, I'm not throwing shade down shade.
54:03
If if you were that way inclined and wanted to say this has got
54:07
nothing to do with the port and it's very self indulgent and
54:09
actually makes the scenes of story drag a little you you
54:14
might be able to argue it there is a.
54:16
Comedy subplot in every single episode of Silver Nemesis that
54:20
is utterly that's nothing. To do that's the joy of silver.
54:23
You've got some indulgent? Is the dictionary definition of
54:26
silver nemesis, but I think delta.
54:28
Is better than Silver Nemesis because the comedy subplots are
54:33
all in some way linked to the plot.
54:35
Even the two. Even the two Americans are
54:38
linked to it tenuously, yes, but but they're not just bystanders.
54:43
They get caught up in it. Well, I mean.
54:46
I think it's on 2 levels. I think one, as we discussed
54:49
earlier, they're likable people, so and they're in danger, so
54:52
that works on that level. But if you look at it and it is
54:55
tenuous a little bit, everyone gets a role in the climax,
54:58
everyone does something. So they're all there for a
55:00
reason at the end. So as part one, I would say that
55:04
crams a lot in. I'm not sure this would have
55:07
worked as a full parter, but it feels like if they'd had half
55:10
hour episodes, it it would it wouldn't have been to the
55:13
detriment of this story. Well, I had a blissful time
55:17
watching that episode one. Are you ready to jump into
55:20
episode 2? I'm having a blissful time.
55:22
As well. Well, let's do it.