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The Study of Eternal Security Part 4 | Simply Christ Ministries · Simply Christ Podcast

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podcast hosted by Leon Martin, along with Aaron Keaton, Melvin
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Martin, Andrew Schrock and Dan Blatz.
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Let's get right to it. All right.
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Good morning. Welcome to you guys that are on
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here. Thanks for being here again.
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We are going to continue our study on security of the
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believer and going to talk about a couple of verses that people
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use to kind of defend the maybe or whatever this position.
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We'll talk about some scriptures there in that regard.
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So before we do that, we'll open up with a word of prayer.
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God, we just thank you for this day.
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Thank you that you love us and that you keep us.
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Guide us. Thank you for the Holy Spirit
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that you have given to make us alive to your word.
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And God, I just pray that you would bless this study this
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morning, that we could speak truthfully and that our hearers
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could hear and understand. And so God, as we go about our
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study, just guide us and lead us.
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We thank you, we praise you in Jesus name, Amen.
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Amen. All righty.
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Yeah, we had yesterday the Iowa State Fairs going on right now.
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We have the second or third largest State Fair in the United
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States here in Iowa and depends flip flops between Texas and
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Minnesota and us. And yesterday we had our Iowa
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Auctioneers Association auction championship at the state fairs.
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We're down there for the for the day.
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And did you win? I was, I'm the president of the
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board of the association. I wasn't competing.
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I was running the thing I had. I had won that.
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I had won the champion what, three years ago, Two or three
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years ago, I was a champion there.
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But so that was kind of fun and had a bunch of competitors from
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all over. We have our what Jerry, he's
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listening on the thing. He was one of our judges down
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there and, and the five judges and 10 contestants that we have
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a we have a convention in February and then we have our
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contest there in the top 10 from that contest come to the State
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Fair in the summer. That's where we do the finals
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then, so. They're judging.
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They're judging how you speak, how you sell things off, or
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what's the. Yeah, the the like the speed of
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your chant, the clarity, how well you run through the numbers
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kind of thing, your stage presence, like how do you take
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control, how you scan the crowd and interact with the people and
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how you're dressed and how your voice projects, you know, if
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you're confident, stuff like that.
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Just kind of one of the questions that the judges answer
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on their judge sheet is would you hire this person to?
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Work for you? You know, just kind of general,
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would he make a good auctioneer kind of thing?
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Yeah, well, if we usually have pretty good crowd there, you
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know, there's several 100,000 people at the fair any given day
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and yeah, that's a that's 11 days long.
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And the, and they, they have over 1,000,000 people in that 11
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days stretch. That's a fair amount of people
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right there. Boy, Andrew Schrock must have
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had something good in his copy this morning.
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Right, that would be what he must have had an espresso, so.
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Anyway, that was a fun day. We met Amos Rabers.
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They were there. Melbourne, I think.
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Yeah, Well, you guys would know. Amos.
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I like, I like. What would he be doing?
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He's not. He's from Indiana I think, or
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somewhere, but they were out visiting family and decided to
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come and check the Iowa State Fair out, so we didn't.
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Wow. Anyway, too many people for me,
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I'm always it's always fun to go and eat something foolish and
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then come home again because there's too many.
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There's so much food there, it's unbelievable.
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And it's expensive to pay 10 bucks for a cinnamon roll.
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Oh wow. That was our $8 for a cup of
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coffee. But if you think, you think
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about it, an average football game, you know, the tenants can
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be anywhere from 50 to 60,000. And that's a lot of people.
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But what you're talking about, you know, a million people in 11
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days, you know, 100,000 a day. That's, that's, that's hard to
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grab. That's a lot of people.
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Yeah, it's substantially over a / 1,000,000 too.
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I forget what the numbers always are, but I know some of the the
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highest attended days run over 200,000 evil, but it but it
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covers. I don't know how many acres the
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State Fair is, but it it covers, I don't know a lot of acres.
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It's, it's big so you don't, you know, it's not elbow to elbow,
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but pretty close. Wonder where all the people come
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from because it's just nothing but fields out there.
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They just come out of the holes somewhere like.
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Well see, a large part of it is cattle.
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Cattle showing livestock showing that's a big thing here.
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People come from all over the Midwest to show their cattle
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there. So that that's that's a big
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chunk of the the 200,000. But then just yeah, there's.
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It you heard the term coming out of the woodwork, when I will
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they change that to come out of the wood like the.
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Cornfields. Shields coming out of the
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cornfields. My mind's not coming out of the
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cornfields. They change that.
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Yep, they literally have that that Iowa Field of Dreams
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baseball game where the players come running out of the literal
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cornfield. That's seriously I do.
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This year was a Philly one of the team Phillies were playing
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in the Field of Dreams game. Wow.
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We wanted to go but we thought it was a little crazy to spend
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$700.00 for a ticket to a ball game so.
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That's crazy and I'm kidding. Oh, well, all right, let's,
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let's see what's what the Scripture has to say about the
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idea of security or conditional security is what we were talking
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about. So just to track back a little
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bit what we were talking about last week, we, we talked, we
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talked just about conditional security.
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A lot of a lot of churches have this a popular belief, I guess,
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that salvation, you know, is entered through the grace of God
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and can be lost through unrepentant sin or rejection of
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faith. There's varying degrees there,
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but you know that restoration is always possible through
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repentance. A lot of a lot of them would
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also kind of be out of the idea that salvation is kind of
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understood as an ongoing relationship, which is which is
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correct. But also a lot of people tend to
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think them too that, that it's you're keeping short accounts.
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You know, if you sin or do something foolish or sin against
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God, then you would immediately be broken away.
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We're actually going to talk about some of the verses that
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people will run to and use to make that argument, I guess.
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And anyway, one of those is in Hebrews 10, verses 26 through
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29. If you were with us listening to
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our Hebrew study a while back, we we talked at length on this
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verse, but I'm going to read it here and we're just going to
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discuss what this actually is talking about here.
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It says in Hebrews 1026 to 29 for if we sin willfully after
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that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there
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remaineth no sacrifice for sins. And I'll just say that a lot of
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people stop right there. We cherry pick that one verse
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which isn't even a complete sentence.
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You'll notice there's a comma at the end there, and but I'm going
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to keep on reading. But a certain fearful looking
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for of judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour
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the adversaries. He that despised Moses law died
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without mercy, under two or three witnesses.
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Of how much for punishment suppose ye, shall he be thought
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worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath
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counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was
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sanctified and unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the
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grace, unto the Spirit of grace? And so I guess then you're up,
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huh? Since Andrew ducked out on us
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there. But so just.
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I mean, to me, this this verse is a reminder to just remember
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to read the context because especially that that verse 26
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looks really separate from a lot of Scripture if you read it all
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by itself. But Dan, give us your thoughts
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on that. Yeah, we, like you said, we did
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go through this fairly thoroughly back when we did the
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Book of Hebrews. But just in this context or in
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this, in light of this idea of conditional security, this is
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where again, most Mennonites have gone to for their lack of
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security. They constantly feel like, well,
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I don't know if I am saved today, at least the kind of
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Mennonite I came from was you cannot ever say that, you know
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that you're saved. And if this verse meant if you
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sin willfully after you have received the knowledge of the
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truth, meaning if I get angry at my wife, or if I look some at
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something I ought not to look at, or if I didn't have pure
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intentions in all ways. You know, like every little sin,
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if every little sin was counted as the sinning willfully, then I
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would have no confidence because there's all kinds of little
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things that I do that I come short on that I fail on.
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And my security is not built on how well I perform.
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If, if this verse meant that kind of sinning willfully, then
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there is no such thing as a sin that's not willful.
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Every sin we do is something that we choose to do.
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That's why it is sin. The very fact that we're doing
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it when we desire to do it and we knew better, that's what
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makes it sin. If we didn't know what we were
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doing, it wouldn't be considered sin.
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And maybe the Old Testament might have been referred to as a
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sin of ignorance, but in the here and now, when you're doing
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a sin, you're doing it willfully.
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That's the whole idea. That's why you're guilty of sin.
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So this willful sin that we're talking about here is a very
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specific sin. It is falling from the grace of
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God. It is counting the blood
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wherewith you were sanctified and unholy thing.
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So it's a very specific kind of sin.
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Christ died for your sins. He was buried and he rose again
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and he's given you his Spirit, the Spirit of grace.
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If you do despite to that spirit, you say I'm not
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interested in what Christ has done anymore.
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I don't put my confidence in what Christ has done anymore.
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I'm not counting his work as sufficient for me.
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I'm going back to the Old Testament.
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I'm going back to circumcision. I'm going back to Sabbath day.
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Keeping you're, you're replacing what God has done for you for
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your salvation with something that you can do for your
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salvation. That's doing despite the spirit
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of grace, that's sinning willfully.
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That's going back under the old law.
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Whereas this passage says, under the old law, you see what kind
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of punishment they suffered for not obeying and walking
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faithfully in that covenant. Well, the covenant now is that
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Christ does the work for you and you simply trust in it.
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And if you stop trusting in it, you're sinning willfully against
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what God has done. And so much, much more could be
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said about this. But the sacrifice that Christ
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has made is the only one that gets us to heaven.
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And if you then decide to do despite to that sacrifice, count
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that thing as an unholy thing and put your faith somewhere
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else that is sinning willfully according to the book of
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Hebrews. And that would be the thing that
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would then make you no longer a part of the covenant, because
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all those that are trusting Christ receive eternal life.
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If you stop trusting Christ, then you've got a problem.
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So it's not about walking sinlessly or sinless
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perfectionism, as some churches might teach it.
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None of us would ever stay saved if that was the case.
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The idea is that you continue to trust Christ throughout
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everything that comes your way. Amen.
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That's well, that's well said. Amen.
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I think that wraps up well, said Dan.
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Yeah. So it the simple fact in my mind
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or the simple thing that I think about when I read this verse is,
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is that OK? So he said in verse 28, he that
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despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three
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witnesses. In other words, in the old God
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had provided the old law that if you follow this you will be
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saved. And if you do these sacrifices
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that I command you to do for your sins when you sin, and that
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didn't work, we, we, we can see that.
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And so now God has provided his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ
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to come and to take away our sins.
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And in other words, he's not going to send Jesus again to die
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on the cross. It's kind of what he's saying
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here. There remaineth no more
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sacrifice for sins. In other words, he's not going
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to let Jesus die again. And in Romans it says that very,
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very same thing. So if you read in context, if
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you back up, obviously he's really pointing out to the
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Hebrew church here that Jesus is our ultimate high priest and
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that there is no other way that we can stand before the throne
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boldly except through Jesus Christ and then the blood of
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Jesus. And so that's the point that
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he's making here. He's not saying Dan very well
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pointed out that if we commit some sort of sin that we are
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there's no more sack that we can't go back like it's.
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So anyway, that's what he's pointing out here.
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We have to, like we've been saying, we have to remember that
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we stay in context to what the scripture is pointing out here
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that. You know, and I, I could see
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somebody, you know, arguing and saying that, well, you're just,
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you're just picking that out because you don't want to, you
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don't want to recognize the fact that you have to maintain your
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salvation or whatever. I mean, I've, I've heard that
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argument plenty of times, but I would encourage you to go back
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and read the, the chapter, the Hebrews 10 there.
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See what, see what, what he's actually talking about.
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He's, you know, it's very obvious that he's entreating us
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to lean fully on the sacrifice that Jesus made versus something
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else. You know that matter of fact, I
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think I would argue that the book of Hebrews is largely
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that's what it's about. But Andrew?
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Yeah, the book of Hebrews is just telling us to not make the
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same mistake that the children of Israel did.
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And they rot it in the wilderness, you know, 40 years,
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all that were 40 years and older or whatever or 20 years and
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older. They didn't enter into the
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promised land. Why?
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Because of unbelief. They didn't say, you know what
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they sinned against God, what the sin that was against God was
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what Dan was saying turning from their salvation, turning from
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the promises. And it's consistent with all the
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New Testament. Paul we just read last couple
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times about in Colossians says if you continue in the faith,
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ground her and settle and not be moved away from the hope of the
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gospel. So don't be moved away from the
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gospel. If you add up all that the
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gospel is you look at it, you evaluate it, you count it and
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you count it as an unworthy thing.
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That's the problem. You know, that's what is he's
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telling us not to do. It's very consistent even with
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Romans 11 for those that think this has nothing to do with the
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body of Christ. In Romans 11 he says that we
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were wild branches grafted in and he said just like the
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natural branches were cut off for a moment because of
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unbelief, they rejected Christ and now he ushered in the
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Gentile nation and we're wild branches grafted in.
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He says don't be high minded because if the natural branches
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were cut off you, you, it's much easier for you to be cut off.
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And he's like, don't make the same mistake.
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Two things again. He's telling us that the
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possibility of us being high minded is there possibility of
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cutting off is there however you want to interpret that.
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But then people are like, well, so at what point do you lose it?
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And they're like, that's not really the point.
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And God doesn't really say, I don't.
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I just think it's important to realize that we have to stick
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with the gospel that's consistent.
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We know that If you want to check and see how far you can
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remove yourself from the gospel and still be saved, I guess
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that's up to you. If you want to gamble in that
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way, There's no, there's no gauge that says, OK, you're
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getting into the red, you better start turning back.
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But the real issue, I think, with security or not security or
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whatever, has to do with the lack of understanding of what
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makes us right with God in the first place.
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Yeah, I agree. If you look at the gospel, then
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you're either secure or you're lost.
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Like it's not, it's not like trying.
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So what what I'm trying to say is when people say, you know
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what I need to get right with God today or, you know, that
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person needs to get right with God yet, you know, before the
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day's over, I, I, I just want to get myself right with God.
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You know, they talk about I'm going to I'm going to fix my
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that's you don't know the gospel and 1st Corinthians 15.
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We're going through and man, that's powerful.
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We're going through that. I I had to hit it again Sunday
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and it says it changed from from one aspect to another was the
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resurrection. I think that I lost.
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It was, it was getting a little sketchy and then he dropped.
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Yeah. He'll be back in a in a minute.
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There he is. Can you?
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Hear me. Yep.
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Yeah. So what changed me from earthy
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to heavenly, from a corruptible to incorruptible?
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What's the resurrection? Because he's saying there, if
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there's no resurrection, we're still in our sins.
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And then he tells us what the resurrection did.
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It changed us from one state of being a carnal state, a sinful
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state, a corruptible state, into an incorruptible.
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So in order to change me from lost to saved, it has to do with
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the resurrection. So that's where it's at.
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How is that not secure? That is so secure.
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In fact, he says it's so secure that even death is swallowed up
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in victory. Why?
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Because we're changed through the resurrection from earthly,
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carnal, corrupt to incorruptible in the very image of God.
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That's. From a natural to glorified,
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that's the answer. So if that's the answer and if
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that's the solution, then this whole thing of getting right
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someone say, well, I got I got to, you know, I going to go
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confess my sins and get right with God.
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No, that's not the gospel. That's not it.
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That's not what did it. You see, if God would have said,
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you know what, in order for you to be changed from one glory to
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the to the other glory, from natural to spiritual, what had
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to do with you, then we would be insecure.
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And that is where our plain background loses it.
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They say it's arrogant for us to know.
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It would be if it was up to you, if it if we were, if it was
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based on your work and your repentance and your humility and
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all the things that they tell you to do.
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If that was it, then obviously it would be bragging.
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It would be bragging and it would be arrogant.
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Like, yeah, you know what? I pulled it off.
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That would be horrible. But you know that it's arrogant
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to not know. It's arrogant to not know where
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you're going. Why?
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Because you're counting the blood of Jesus Christ and you're
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saying it's short, Huh. Are you saying you can do
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better? Like, you know, we don't look at
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it that way, but I think it's extremely arrogant to not know
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because you're counting the blood of Jesus Christ and you're
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saying, you know what it, it would be like.
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Let's say I, I'm stranded on an island and it's all flooded
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around me and I'm going to drown.
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The water's rising. A ship comes by.
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It's my salvation, it's my deliverance.
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But I tell them, look, I appreciate the ship.
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I need the ship. It's here to help me.
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But you stay 150 feet away. I'll swim towards you.
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But there's sharks, there's currents.
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There's no way you're going to make it.
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But you're offering. You know what?
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I'll do my part. I'll.
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I'll swim over there. That's just arrogant.
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You can't humble yourself enough to say you look, I just simply
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need to rescue. I need a ship.
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You just picked me up like, but no, we want to say I, I, I'll
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crawl my way over there. You know, I got to do my part.
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Well, that's arrogant. That's not humble enough to
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receive a gift. And that is something that our
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background has a real hard time with is to say, look, we are
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lost. I can't help myself.
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I need a gift. And it's very arrogant.
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Yeah, yeah, that's, that's good. And I agree with you, Andrew,
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that is the, the underlying thing is, is definitely our
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Christ, the, the salvation that we have.
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And if it's not, it's not unsure.
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You know, if, if we, if we counted as unsure, we're
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counting the sacrifice of God as unsure or unstable.
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You know, in our in our seemingly humble way, we're
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actually we're actually discrediting the the power, the
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strength of God. And you know, you talked about
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confessing a little bit made me think of that verse in first
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John. I know this isn't in our notes
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that where it says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and
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just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all
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unrighteousness. You know, so Andrew was saying,
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you know, it's not it's not in the in the confessing and
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repenting. That's not necessarily the
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gospel. But what about a verse like
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this? You know, people come and yeah,
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this is another one that comes up in this discussion quite a
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bit. But again, read the context and
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and understand what what the confession of our sins is and
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what the subject is there first, John.
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But some some interesting stuff there.
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I think another way that when I read this I thought of like
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counting the Son of God of the covenant of the count of the
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blood of the covenant as an unholy thing.
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Another thing that comes to my mind is trying to add something
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to Christ like the Bible talks about circumcision.
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You know, they that the believers were saying that you
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you can have Jesus and it's only Jesus, but you need to be
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sacrificed, circumcised, you know, And so that was an issue.
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So if you try and add something to the gospel to say, well, yes,
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it is Christ, but also this. So when you attach something
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else to my mind also that can be crowning the covenant of the
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blood of Christ as an unholy thing, you're not just relying
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on on that. Yeah.
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All right, let's jump into the next set of verses here in John
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15. I'm going to read one through 6.
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And before I read that though, there was a pretty good
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discussion on Dan's channel about, I think it was about this
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exact verse, wasn't it, Dan? And if you're not familiar with
25:40
this, Dan has a WhatsApp community called In Light of the
25:44
Gospel with Dan Blatz. And he has a daily Bible study
25:50
thing, 5 minute Bible study that he does really, really good.
25:53
And then he has this Bible discussion and questions chat, I
25:57
guess we call it, right? Where can people find that if
26:01
they were inclined to come and listen?
26:03
I mean, I find it really good, especially the discussion.
26:06
There's not a lot of discussion on there, but what it is, it's
26:08
usually really good as well as the Bible says, where can they
26:11
find that? They under.
26:12
How did they find that? I don't know if you can just
26:14
search it. I think you pretty much have to
26:16
get an invite. So there is invites available on
26:19
the group, you can just share them and then anybody who clicks
26:22
on it can follow the link and join the group.
26:25
Is there a link that you could pop into?
26:27
The the, yeah, I should be able to do that, yeah.
26:29
You sometime here in the in the study.
26:32
If you can do that, that'll be great.
26:33
But this this scripture came up there in in this contact in this
26:38
light, actually kind of about how how this applies to a
26:42
Christian here in John 15. There was really good discussion
26:46
about it. I don't know if if I understand
26:48
the scripture good enough to talk about it much, but this is
26:51
one that gets discussed a lot in regards to security of the
26:56
believer. First John 5 or 15 verse one
27:00
says I am the true vine and my father is the husbandman.
27:03
Every branch in Me beareth not fruit.
27:06
Every branch in Me that that beareth not fruit, He taketh
27:08
away. Every branch that beareth fruit,
27:11
He purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
27:14
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto
27:18
you. Abide in Me, and I in you.
27:20
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself except it abide in the
27:24
vine, no more can ye except ye abide in Me.
27:28
I am the vine, He are the branches, He that abideth in me,
27:31
and I in Him, and the same bringeth forth much fruit, for
27:35
without Me you can do nothing. If a man abide not in Me, he is
27:39
cast forth as a branch, and is withered.
27:42
And men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are
27:47
burned. I have I have heard this.
27:51
If, if there will be one verse that kind of sticks in my mind
27:53
that I heard a lot or one set of scriptures.
27:56
This is one of you hear a lot of, we heard it in the Mennonite
28:00
circles a lot. And I've heard it since, you
28:03
know, even a lot of people come in here and, and preach about
28:09
this. And I, I think I'm, I'm really
28:11
interested in, in hearing what you guys have to say about this.
28:13
But I think a lot of it is used as a kind of scare tactic to
28:17
keep believers tied into the, the, the vine here.
28:23
But anyway, very interested to hear what you guys say about
28:26
this, Dan. I would have to say also that
28:30
this is one of the passages that it doesn't confuse me because I
28:35
feel like I understand it in context of where where Jesus was
28:40
at the time. But it is one of those that I
28:43
feel like sometimes when I'm just to be totally upfront, I
28:47
feel like sometimes I'm kind of dismissing this passage because
28:51
it doesn't say quite the way that I would feel like it should
28:54
say almost. And that's just me being very,
28:56
very upfront. It sounds like if you don't
29:00
abide in Jesus and and if you just take it out of contacts and
29:04
try to apply it to us today, you're left with trying to
29:08
figure out what does it mean to abide.
29:10
How do I abide And the most Bible teachers then or those
29:15
motivating speakers will say you need to pray everyday.
29:18
You need to read the scriptures, you need to study, you need to
29:21
have quiet time. And so it becomes a performative
29:24
based Christianity where you're trying desperately to stay in
29:28
the vine by what what is it that you're trying to stay in?
29:33
You're trying to stay in by the way that you read, the way that
29:35
you pray, the way that you live your life.
29:38
And so then it becomes very much a works based salvation.
29:41
And so if you understand the Apostle Paul's revelation to the
29:45
church and how we get saved and how we stay saved, it doesn't
29:49
become about that. And secondly, you understand
29:52
that Jesus was referring to his own life now heading to the
29:56
cross. He had he had actual disciples
30:00
right there with him in John 6. We know that's verse where or
30:03
that passage where Jesus says some very hard things and many
30:07
of his disciples walk no more with him.
30:10
Then he turns to his own 12 and says, would you leave also?
30:13
And they said, you know, Peter said, where would we go?
30:15
You have the words of eternal life.
30:17
And so Pete, Paul or Jesus was often challenging his disciples
30:21
to stay with him and to walk and go, even accept the cross, to
30:25
take up the cross and follow him right to the end.
30:28
But then he also said, none of you will stay with me.
30:31
You will all go your own way. All of you are going to deny me.
30:35
You're going to reject me, you're going to flee from me.
30:38
And so none of them actually stuck with him.
30:40
But I, I know I'm kind of rambling here.
30:43
The, the, the goal in Jesus's lifetime was to walk with him to
30:48
the end, to stay with him. But if you look at the New
30:52
Testament or the, the epistles of Paul, you see this idea of
30:56
the Jews rejecting Christ and they as this, this natural
31:00
branch are broke off and they're castaway.
31:02
So all the natural Jews that did not trust in Christ, they were
31:07
believing God up to that point. And now they rejected God
31:11
through Christ and they were broken off.
31:13
And then wild, wild branches, the the Gentile nations were
31:18
grafted in. Those that believe Christ are
31:20
graft into that branch. And so we are grafted in by
31:24
faith and we stand by faith. And so whatever this abiding is,
31:29
I think it's synonymous with believing and trusting.
31:32
But again, to walk through this passage, just this passage, can
31:38
be a bit of a tricky collection and I would like to hear other
31:41
people's views as well. Yeah, Dan put that link in the
31:48
in the chat there, just click on that and subscribe to his
31:51
channel. That's there's some really good
31:53
discussion on that. Well, and I don't even know if
31:55
you can see previous stuff if you subscribe or how that works,
31:58
Dan, but get on there that that's going to be a good one
32:01
for you, Melvin. Yeah, when I think of abide so
32:06
to me, it's not like we have to stay abiding in him somehow by
32:11
some sort of, you know, works or trying to cause like you said,
32:15
Dan, a lot of people take this and say all that we have to make
32:19
sure that we keep abiding in him while it it says I was trying to
32:23
find and I couldn't find it says later John, Jesus said if you
32:28
abide in me, we will come. And I think it uses the word
32:32
abode me and my father will come in and abode in you.
32:36
So in other words, like the spirit, you know, they, he God
32:41
is living in us through the spirit and God doesn't just like
32:45
someday decide I'm going to move out because you're whatever not
32:50
biting at me, you know, and so like to me, it's not something
32:54
that happens and unhappens and happens again.
32:59
If you read this, it's just like pretty simple, I guess in my
33:04
mind, because he's just simply saying I am the true vine.
33:08
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh away.
33:13
Every branch that beareth not fruit, he purges it.
33:18
Now you're clean through the word and then he says abide to
33:21
me and I and you as a branch cannot bear fruit of itself
33:24
except to divide the vine. Without me you can do nothing so
33:29
in other words, come to Jesus like Jesus is the way the truth
33:33
and the life and and without me you can do nothing.
33:38
Then that verse the last one is what catches most people in
33:41
verse 6. Like you said, this is the one
33:43
they stand on. He says every man abide not in
33:46
me. He cast forth as a branch and is
33:48
withered and men gather them and cast them into the fire and they
33:52
are burned. So in other words, in what way,
33:56
I kind of read this and I don't know, it might be, I'm sure it's
33:59
deeper than this actually. But to me it's like he's just
34:01
saying, if you're not going to accept Jesus and Jesus alone for
34:06
your salvation, like if you're not going to abide in me, trust
34:09
in me, and then I come abide in you, then you're going to be
34:13
cast into the fire and you're going to be burned.
34:16
In other words, talking about basically as unbeliever being an
34:19
unbeliever. So the abiding part is not
34:24
necessarily like hinged on what we're doing, on what we do, or
34:30
if we keep trying to do things, whatever it is that you may be
34:35
trying to do to stay in the branch or stay connected to the
34:39
branch. But that we are.
34:43
He is the true vine, and we can't do anything without him,
34:48
without Christ. And it's not something that we
34:51
move in and out of. So that's kind of the way I see
34:55
it, but I'm sure there's. A deeper aspect to it as well.
34:59
So what what I hear you saying is like I, I abide here at 2754
35:05
260th St. Charles City, IA 5 O 617.
35:09
That's, that's my, that's where I abide.
35:11
Even when I'm in Europe, I still, this is my, this is my
35:15
place. You know, even even when I'm
35:17
outside at work in Waverly, this is still my my place.
35:21
That's kind of what you're saying.
35:22
Like it's not like because I leave for work now, I'm not
35:24
abiding. That's right.
35:27
Yeah, right, Andrew. Yeah, I've always looked at a
35:33
little bit more on the way. Dan did like mention a little
35:38
bit about the fact that it like I'm trying to decide whether
35:43
this is Kingdom of heaven language or Kingdom of God as
35:46
well. And it works kind of either way.
35:50
And a lot of that. Sometimes it spills over or
35:52
whatever. It's pretty much the same.
35:55
But abiding with Christ. I have no problem with that.
35:59
Like where else are you gonna go?
36:01
You know, even the epistle Paul's irre consistent with
36:04
that. It's like, you know, I am the
36:06
true line. If you want to make it, if you
36:08
want to, if you want deliverance, stick with me.
36:10
I mean, I don't, I don't have a problem with it.
36:13
I don't. To me, it's not a works based
36:15
situation. Although the church is what,
36:19
what is really bad is, especially in the
36:21
Swartzentreuber Amish where I come from, this was used to just
36:25
drive fear in our hearts to where if we didn't follow all
36:30
the rules the way we're supposed to, they would really use this
36:33
verse And it worked. But what, when you're in that
36:38
situation, what you don't realize and what you don't see
36:40
is that it's a man made organization that they put the,
36:44
the, the, the label on Kamini Goddess or like the Church of
36:49
God, Like, you know, you can't just make an organization that
36:53
is way off the Bible and it's all 90% of its man made.
36:58
Like if you would take away the man made stuff, they wouldn't
37:00
know what to do. If you take if you took away the
37:03
world and all their ordinances and stuff, they wouldn't have
37:07
any, any identity. They didn't even know where they
37:09
stand. They don't know Christ.
37:11
So you take the world and there are man made traditions away.
37:15
They're naked, they don't know what to do.
37:18
But yet they put this big label on it.
37:20
They're the Church of God. And if you disrespect them, if
37:24
you don't obey the elders and the bishops, then you're
37:27
rejecting the, the Church of God and you're, you're in danger of
37:31
being cut off and be thrown out in the in the fire.
37:35
Well, we heard that a lot. That was a good way to get all
37:37
them wild young men to, you know what you need the fear of God.
37:41
And you need to respect the Church of God because if you
37:43
don't, you'll be cut off and burnt in our fire, you know, and
37:48
that's not what he's saying. He's, well, if it was the true
37:53
church, yeah. Stick with Christ, the two
37:55
churches in Christ. And he's telling us to stay
37:58
there. And it's that simple.
38:01
Where we need discernment and wisdom is the people that we're
38:04
identifying with and associating with.
38:06
Are they born again believers that are following Christ?
38:10
Then you can, yeah, you can be one with them.
38:15
But there's shouldn't be any fear or guilt to remove yourself
38:19
from something that is not. And don't let this fear tactic
38:22
work to keep you in darkness is what I would like to say.
38:28
Yeah, yeah, The the, the, the thing for me, my opinion, I
38:33
guess kind of is, which I'm an expert at, of course, is that
38:39
this is, I mean, I would not use this Scripture to try to use it
38:44
as a like, well, you better do this or else kind of thing.
38:49
Because what, what really breaks it down for if you use this as a
38:53
believer abiding in Christ. And and I don't think that's
38:56
actually what it's I think it's more like nations talking about
39:00
Israel. Actually, if you look at it, you
39:02
know, because a verse 6, that's that's the one that would bother
39:06
me if we were to apply this to a relationship with a son with,
39:12
with, you know, through Jesus being sanctified.
39:15
Verse 6 says if a man abide not in me.
39:18
So this is somebody that is that is not abiding in Jesus.
39:23
He's saying he is cast forth as a branch and is withered and men
39:28
gather those branches and cast them into the fire.
39:32
You know, men don't do the gathering in this, You know, if
39:36
you talk about it simply as, as a, as a New Testament
39:41
relationship with God, men don't have a part in that judgement.
39:46
They are not the ones putting those branches into the fire.
39:48
That's an issue with me. So, you know, if you want to use
39:52
it as a, as an allegory or, or a, a type, I'm OK with that.
39:57
But I wouldn't take it a bit further than that because I, I,
40:00
I don't think that it's actually talking about the relationship
40:03
of a father with, with his son or a son with his father here.
40:07
Because there's other versions, if you really get into it and
40:10
and you start looking at it, it kind of breaks down to where it
40:14
it would not make sense in the new covenant.
40:16
This is an old covenant. Jesus pre being, you know, died
40:21
going into the grave, rising again victorious.
40:23
He's talking to his disciples as if followers here.
40:26
And there's some stuff that does not follow through in the new
40:29
covenant. So that that's that's my
40:32
opinion. Again, I don't know exactly that
40:34
I could back that up, but I do know that verse 6 is a real
40:38
problem if you try to make a new covenant.
40:40
Yeah, the next couple verses there he goes on and says, as
40:43
the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you.
40:45
Continue in my love. If you keep my commandments, you
40:49
shall abide in my love even as I have kept my Father's
40:52
commandments and abide in his love.
40:54
And so, yeah, I I like that you pointed that out, that he's
40:58
using an illustration of naturally working in the field.
41:01
We have orchards right across the road from us and every year
41:05
they go through and they all cut off all the branches that aren't
41:08
bearing fruit or the ones that they don't want to bear fruit.
41:11
And they take those branches and they put them on a pile and they
41:13
burn them up. But men do that work.
41:16
So he's just saying, naturally when a a branch doesn't bear
41:19
fruit, you cut it off and you burn it up.
41:21
There's no point in it. This is not the father holding
41:24
Hellfire over you if you don't walk in his love.
41:27
Imagine that kind of love, right?
41:29
Like if you don't love me, I'm burning you.
41:33
It's it's not that he's using this natural example of a branch
41:37
that gets broken off. There's no use for that branch.
41:40
And so the only way for us to bear fruit is to abide in him.
41:44
How do we abide in him? We keep his commandments.
41:46
Why do we keep his commandments? Because he loves us, right?
41:51
Yeah. The other thing that is not
41:54
well, the other thing that is consistent is the people that
41:57
harbor on these verses, they normally don't embrace Paul's
42:07
epistles. Yep, that's the the like that's
42:10
a dividing factor. And if this passage keeps you
42:15
from embracing the revelation that Paul got after the
42:20
crucifixion straight from Jesus Christ, I want to hear from the
42:26
latest Jesus Christ reported to Paul, revealed the gospel of
42:32
Jesus Christ to Paul, not Peter, not the other apostles, but Paul
42:38
got it directly from Christ in Galatians, he tells us.
42:42
I want to hear what Paul has to say.
42:43
And when people reject the epistles of Paul to make the
42:47
book of Matthew and and the four gospels fit their teaching, then
42:55
I have a problem. They're not rightly dividing.
42:58
Yep. So what I'm saying, what we're
43:00
saying, I think is kind of that with it.
43:05
I, I don't want to be caught making excuses for the word of
43:07
God. OK, but but it's also important
43:09
to look at it in context, you know, so I mean, read, read the
43:13
verse, look at it for yourselves.
43:15
You know, if if, if it helps you understand the relationship
43:17
between God, whatever, that's that's perfectly fine.
43:20
But just know this that we're talking about like in Romans 6
43:23
says, therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death.
43:26
That like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of
43:29
the Father, Even so we should walk in the newness of life.
43:32
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his
43:35
death, we shall also in the likeness of his resurrection be,
43:39
you know, race again. So just keep that in mind when
43:42
you're when you look at that. One more thing if you don't mind
43:44
me adding, I I read verse 9 and 10 there about keeping the
43:48
commandments. But if you read verse 11, you
43:51
get the context and the real gist of what Jesus is trying to
43:55
say. The reason he said these things
43:57
is these things Have I spoken unto you?
44:00
Why? That my joy might remain in you
44:03
and that your joy might be full. So if you read John 15 one
44:09
through 6 and you're filled with terror and you feel like I've
44:12
got to walk circumspectly or else, then you have not
44:16
understood it the way that Jesus taught it.
44:18
Jesus was teaching this so that you could be full of joy and
44:22
that his joy might remain in you.
44:25
So that's how you should read this passage, a passage that
44:28
should promote and encourage joy and peace.
44:33
Very good. Yeah, that's that's really good.
44:37
All right, we're going to jump on the next one here, unless
44:41
someone else has something they want to cap that with you.
44:45
Second Peter in my computer froze up my the Word document
44:54
where I have my notes. Second Peter 2, find it in my
45:01
Bible verses 20 through 22. I'm going to read that.
45:05
Second, Peter 2/23/22 For if after they have escaped the
45:11
pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and
45:14
Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and
45:17
overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the
45:21
beginning. For it had been better for them
45:24
not to have known the way of righteousness, then after they
45:27
have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto
45:32
them. But it is happened unto them
45:35
according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own
45:39
vomit again and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the
45:43
mire. So this to me is a lot goes back
45:49
to what we were talking about earlier in in Hebrews.
45:53
So another another one of those verses that a lot of people, you
45:58
know, kind of watch out, you know, this is this is this is a,
46:01
you know, he's going to get you kind of verses.
46:04
And again, I, I, I, I feel like almost like a broken record.
46:08
We, we are always saying, yeah, but read the read what the
46:11
conversation actually is about. But Dan, your thoughts on on
46:15
this scripture? This is one of those verses that
46:18
I would go to, just like the ones in the book of Hebrews, to
46:22
warn believers to to watch how they're walking.
46:27
In the book of Hebrews, he says that their heart is hardened
46:31
through the deceitfulness of sin.
46:33
And so when someone's heart becomes hard, they can stop
46:37
being soft towards God and they could stop trusting him.
46:40
And so the whole idea is continuing in faith and trust in
46:45
what Christ has done. But a loose life, one that
46:50
you're what, not caring how you're walking and you're
46:53
walking according to your lust is one that will harden your
46:56
heart and the commandments of God won't seem very important to
47:00
you after a while. And so he makes it very clear
47:03
he's not talking about someone who is pretending Christianity.
47:06
He's someone who has actually escaped the pollutions of the
47:10
world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus
47:13
Christ. What is that?
47:14
But someone who has genuinely been born again.
47:17
They were walking in the vanity of their life.
47:20
They were full of lust and they escaped that, the pollutions of
47:24
that through Christ and his work.
47:27
Now they're being entangled again.
47:29
They're in they're and they're being overcome.
47:32
He says their latter end is worse than with them from the
47:35
beginning. So it is a strong warning for
47:38
believers not to go back and get re entangled in the lifestyle
47:43
that they were formerly in. Some people have this idea that
47:47
the apostle Paul teaches, let us do evil, that good may come.
47:51
And then he says when people accuse him of that, he says
47:54
their damnation is just Paul is never teaching in any way that
47:59
you can now walk as ever, however you want.
48:02
Just be like the grace of God is is a is a free card to do as you
48:06
please. There is a very real sense when
48:09
the apostle Paul preached the gospel, people thought he was
48:14
saying, because the grace of God was so all-encompassing.
48:17
People thought that the apostle Paul was teaching that we can
48:20
just go ahead and keep on sitting because the grace of God
48:23
are bounds above it because there is a valued truth to that.
48:27
We do believe that I cannot out sin the goodness and grace of
48:31
God. But then should we just keep
48:33
going? And Peter is making the point
48:35
very clear. He says this is like a a dog
48:38
returning to his vomit. Which of us would want to go
48:41
back to the life that we were redeemed from?
48:44
And so there there is a real sense in that people who walk go
48:49
back to the old lifestyle that they were in formerly will be
48:53
worse and more more strongly entangled in that lifestyle than
48:57
had they never escaped in the 1st place.
48:59
So I don't know how else to read this but a very strong warning
49:02
to watch how you walk and not get careless or take the grace
49:07
of God as lasciviousness or lawlessness.
49:12
No, that that's really good, I think.
49:14
I think the an almost exact parallel Scripture is that while
49:18
we discussed the first part of this that Hebrews 6 part where
49:23
if you have tasted the grace of God and you have you have
49:26
experienced this thing and then to go turn away from that and
49:31
and counted as you know unworthy Melvin.
49:36
Yeah. So obviously the context again
49:39
like you said we're like a broken record, but the context
49:41
here is false prophets and false teachers is what he's talking
49:45
about. If you look in verse one, it
49:48
says that they were false prophets among the people and
49:53
false teachers among you, that they're even denying that the
49:57
Lord that that bought them. So I think the I think the key
50:02
here is, is that just like you read in in Hebrews 10,
50:07
accounting the sanctification of the blood of Christ as an unholy
50:12
thing. I think that's the key here that
50:15
we don't do that because he keeps what you read there.
50:19
He says, I'm scrolling down to it, that after the escape
50:25
depletions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord Savior
50:29
Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein in Galatians.
50:35
He says in chapter 3, he says, O foolish Galatians who have
50:39
bewitched you that you should not obey the truth before whose
50:43
eyes Jesus Christ has been evidently set forth and
50:46
crucified among you. This only would I learn of you
50:49
receive thee the spirit of works for the law or by the hearing of
50:52
faith. Are ye so foolish having begun
50:54
in the Spirit and ye are that ye now be made perfect by the
50:58
flesh. So it's just it's all over in
51:01
the Scripture about about this, about not letting walking
51:07
outside of Christ, outside of what Christ has done, whatever
51:12
that may be, because it's a like damn saying it's a fearful thing
51:16
to be turning to your own vomit again.
51:19
And the South is washed and goes back to wallowing in the Mary
51:23
clay. So you know, there's verses that
51:26
say that God has plucked us out of the Mary clay.
51:30
Why would you want to go back into into the Mary clay again?
51:34
And so it, like Dan said, it is a thing that we need to
51:40
remember. But the key is, is that it's
51:42
Christ that we don't want to turn away from and keep, keep,
51:47
keep our focus on Jesus and Jesus alone.
51:52
Andrew. Yeah.
51:54
I think another aspect of it is that we don't really like the
51:59
idea that we're going to be challenged.
52:02
Our faith is challenged that this this life here is a pretty
52:06
big trial. And I mean, earlier Peter there
52:11
said, you know, right now we're a little bit of heaviness
52:13
because of the manifold temptations.
52:15
And you know, life is rough. We like to think that once
52:20
Christ got us, he's just going to keep us up on this high horse
52:24
and we're going to be on cloud 9 the rest of our lives.
52:27
It's just not the way God designed it.
52:30
He, he says, Paul says that homie loveth, he chasteneth.
52:35
There's a lot of trying. God allows us to stay in a
52:39
fallen world where bad things happen and we get challenged.
52:44
It's rough. Sometimes we get tried really
52:47
hard. The children of Israel, they
52:50
were promised the promised land, but man, they had some rough
52:52
obstacles, which is what brought about unbelief 'cause it's just
52:56
got so rough it, it looks so impossible.
52:59
And it actually was humanly impossible the situations they
53:03
were in, but then they forgot their their strong hand that
53:08
delivered them so many times. And if God is still in that same
53:14
mindset of trying his people to get strong, committed believers,
53:19
then we shouldn't be surprised if we get challenged with things
53:22
that are beyond our strength, that are beyond our means,
53:27
beyond our wisdom. And we have to simply trust God,
53:31
our Savior and keep walking in it.
53:34
And, but often what happens is we, we run for comfort.
53:39
And one of the things that we do is we start nippling around sin.
53:44
And you know, like, well, you know what, I've had it hard.
53:47
I'm going to enjoy, I'm, I'm going to enjoy something that
53:50
feels good for a while. It's rough and we get enticed by
53:54
the deceitfulness of sin and I, and from my own experience, I
53:59
know that you can get darker and darker and darker until you go
54:03
like, wait a minute, this is not going the right direction.
54:06
And I think the warning is, is that you can keep going in that
54:09
darkness and get darker and darker and darker and darker
54:12
until you find yourself in the worst situation than you were in
54:16
when you got saved. So I think that's a possibility.
54:20
Otherwise you wouldn't be warning us about it.
54:23
It's consistent throughout the Bible.
54:24
It's not just Peter. You know, people want to say,
54:26
well, Peter's not for the body of Christ.
54:29
That's why it doesn't make sense.
54:30
No, Paul's doing the same thing. He's challenging us the same way
54:34
that we're going to be tried. It's going to be rough.
54:37
Stick with it, continue it. You might be killed for the
54:42
faith or, you know, just the temptation.
54:45
I mean, it's give people freedom and the temptations go up to a
54:52
higher level, I think. And when we have to think for
54:55
ourselves, and it's with everything that we've gone
54:59
through, I can understand why people depart from the faith,
55:05
except for the fact that I don't know where you would go.
55:09
Like, where are you going to go? You come back to Peter, you
55:13
know? Yeah, bad things happen.
55:15
And if you blame God, which I know better than that, I know
55:18
we're living in a fallen world, but a lot of people blame God
55:21
when bad things happen. And maybe.
55:24
And then they blame him not even if they don't believe that it
55:27
was him causing it. Why didn't you to save me from
55:30
it? Because I asked him to.
55:32
Well, I asked that question, too.
55:35
You know, we prayed. We did everything like, you
55:40
know, we're supposed to in my mind, as far as like praying and
55:43
you know, it's safe and all that, but still something really
55:46
bad happened. The bottom line is where we have
55:53
to come to all the time is that regardless of what happens in
55:57
this life, Jesus Christ is the answer.
56:00
And I'm not. Nothing can move me, separate me
56:03
from that love. And we have to be resolved in
56:05
that. And I think that's the the
56:07
exhortation. I.
56:10
Think what Melton said, too, is pretty important to recognize
56:12
that there were these people speaking great swelling words of
56:16
vanity. They were filled with pride.
56:18
They were promising liberty, but they themselves were servants of
56:22
corruption. And if you're brought under
56:24
bondage by someone like that, you're going to go back to where
56:28
you were. So the admonition today is stay
56:31
away from the pollutions of this world.
56:33
Whatever you were caught up in before, run from it, flee from
56:36
it. And like, like, like Andrew was
56:41
just saying, I have had some of these kinds of temptations to
56:45
where before you know it, you can get caught up in some sinful
56:49
activity way more than you ever thought you would.
56:52
And you can see how much bondage you could get yourself in.
56:55
So just get away from those kinds of temptations, flee
56:59
youthful lust and whatnot, right?
57:01
So don't get back stuck in the ways of pollution that you were
57:05
caught up in before. Yeah, that's, that's really good
57:10
advice because the Bible tells us, you know, that that sin when
57:15
it is finished, it bringeth forth death.
57:18
So and and so that's to me, that's what this this is talking
57:21
about. Like, if we continue down this
57:24
road of just, of just doing whatever we want, eventually
57:28
we're going to be like some of the people that Charlie Kirk
57:30
debated in these colleges where they just, they refuse to
57:33
recognize that there is even a God, you know, there.
57:36
We refuse to recognize that there even was a Savior.
57:41
And so it's not the, it's not the cessation, it's not the
57:44
quitting of your sinful activity that makes you holy.
57:49
It's, it's the blood of Jesus that makes you holy.
57:51
In the same way, it's not the beginning of sin that makes you
57:57
unholy, right? It's still the blood of Jesus.
57:59
However, if we count it, like we said earlier, it's it's we
58:03
believe all four of us here believe that there is great
58:07
security of the believer but not of the unbeliever.
58:11
That that's kind of what it all boils down to if you're some
58:15
really carnal and sin filled believers, you know that that
58:20
when they die, they'll go to heaven and be with God just the
58:22
same as as somebody that is not the rewards are going to be
58:25
different at the end and there but reason that we don't want to
58:30
see people go down this stem filled Rd. is where it
58:35
potentially could end up at you being an apostasy.
58:38
It's separated from God and and spend eternity that way.
58:42
That's what we don't want. So anyway, there's a few more
58:45
scriptures that we're going to hit.
58:46
We're going to do one more kind of wrap this this whole thing up
58:49
with some stuff next week and just, and just kind of cap this
58:53
off and then we'll probably go back to do it.
58:57
A study on a book of the Bible again.
59:02
I got it like a one liner yet. Yeah.
59:05
So when you were talking, I was just thinking there's two types
59:09
of people, the the the liberal transgender that love the
59:14
darkness and love the sin. They're trying to get rid of the
59:18
judgement. So they just explain away the
59:20
judge. And then there's the other side
59:22
where we hate the sin. We see the destruction of the
59:25
sin, and we want to get eliminated from being judged and
59:29
being brought under that judgement.
59:30
And so we go to Christ. Yep.
59:33
That's right, that was 3 lines, but I'll call it a one line of
59:36
this. No, that's.
59:45
A preacher's one liner. Yeah, all righty folks, thanks
59:50
for being with us this morning. Same, same time, same place.
59:54
Next week we're going to do this again and kind of cap this thing
59:56
off and and finish it up. So once again, God bless you.
1:00:01
Keep looking at at the author and the finisher of our faith.
1:00:04
He is the one that is going to sustain us and guide us and lead
1:00:07
us. And and call us holy in the
1:00:09
sight of God. That's what we want to do.
1:00:10
So God bless you guys. Have a good week.
1:00:12
We'll see you again next week. Thank you.