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Where do we draw the line? · Checked In

• Taylor: Welcome to Checked In, a mother-daughter cultural deep dive with Jenny and Taylor, where each episode we unpack the topics that we can't stop talking about. I'm Taylor, the daughter. Jenny Gumm: I'm Jenny, the mom. Taylor: And since it's our first episode, we thought we would do a little get to know you exercise where we give you guys a couple random facts that say a little bit about us and who we are as people. Do you wanna go first, Mom? Jenny Gumm: Sure. So a couple of fun facts about me is I'm actually a third generation Californian. So my mom's mom, my mom and I were all born in California, which given the history of the state, I just found out that San Francisco is only 250 years old. So same as the country, is quite rare. It's very seldom that you'll find people that have that many generations born in California. I have through work and life traveled to 47 of the 50 states in this country and gotten to see a lot of different cultures and realize pretty early on that we call ourselves one country. However, we have a lot of variation in culture and even how we speak. And it was super fun to get to learn about all those things. Taylor: Wait, how many of the continents have you been to? Jenny Gumm: Six. I just haven't been to Antarctica and it's on my bucket list. And I now know I can go with National Geographic. So it's a 2027 trip I'm gonna take. Yeah, to go Taylor: Wow, that's so cool. Jenny Gumm: see the icebergs. And then my first, my second job out of college, I was with waste management for 10 years. So I was a trash lady. And in those 10 years, I had 13 jobs. And so got to do a lot of different things, started in finance and ended up in IT, but in the meantime did a ton of different stuff. Taylor: I feel like you have to clarify that you are not actually on the trash truck. Jenny Gumm: No, I did not drive a trash truck. I worked in finance and projects and then IT. So all support functions. Yeah. Taylor: People don't know you but but they don't know how genuinely terrifying it would be if you were behind the wheel of a trash truck. Jenny Gumm: That's true. However, on Founders Day back in the day, we did have where everybody would go out for a day and spend a day on the truck because the beliefs of the founders at the time, and this was a while ago, was that it it didn't matter what job we had, the j the drivers were the core to our business. So I have spent time as a passenger and actually throwing residential trash. Taylor: I wonder if they still do that Jenny Gumm: I don't know. Taylor: in the current day. I feel like that's kind of a bygone era of corporate America. You know what I mean? The undercover boss era of corporate America. Jenny Gumm: Probably. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Taylor: Okay, let's see. three things about me. So one is that I get really hyperfixated on things. I read a book about hot dogs, Shout Out Raw Dog by Jamie Loftus and have have Jenny Gumm: Excellent book. Taylor: gone on a hot dog journey. But along those same lines, a inside joke with my sister and I turned into me getting a Guinness tattoo just because the inside joke went too far. the second Fact is that I moved across the country on a whim. My partner came up to me when I was very hungover after the Eras tour and asked if we should move to New York. And within I think four months, we were in New York with our dog and cat. So I don't know what that says about me. Irresponsible, fun, either way. Jenny Gumm: Well, but you could move 'cause of your jobs, right? I mean yeah. It wasn't like you were Taylor: Yes, yes. Jenny Gumm: picking up and yeah, starting over. Taylor: That's true. We were both working remote at the time. and then last is that I read about 150 books a year. I know when we were talking about it, you were like, but you read 200 last year. But the goal is to actually read less. so I'm trying to keep it to 150 going forward because it really does take over your life when you're reading like a book every third day, I guess. Okay, so mom, what are you checking in on this week? Jenny Gumm: So I was super excited to go see The Odyssey because I've read the poem. I guess it's not a poem, it's a book, whatever you want to call it, that Homer wrote. And I read all about how it was filmed, first film ever with the IMAX camera, read all about the camera, was super excited. And then I read Maureen Dowd's article in the New York Times. About it and how basically they took all the sensuality, grittiness, and how this complexity of the man, which meant that the women in the story are downplayed out of it. And now I'm like, okay, maybe from a cinematography perspective, it'd be nice to see because you know how much I love movies. I've been going as soon as I could. And I'm now I'm conflicted 'cause I don't think I want to go see it anymore. Taylor: Wait, I thought you did see it. Jenny Gumm: No, not yet. No, because I want to see it in IMAX. If I'm gonna see it, I'm gonna see it in the big Taylor: Right. Jenny Gumm: like thing. so I don't know. Because I don't think we should simplify things like that, because you know, heroes are complicated, they're not straightforward. Taylor: I think, and where I land is that I do want to see it because it is a movie based on all practical effects. And in the Jenny Gumm: Yeah, that's true. Taylor: world of CGI bullshit, it's kind of cool. And Christopher Nolan, Jenny Gumm: yeah. That's true. Taylor: you don't want to see what he does with a woman. I don't think we want to know what he thinks. Jenny Gumm: That's true too. Maybe that's why maybe this is a better I mean, in fairness, he does take which he should, he does take some artistic license and changes the end a little bit and does some stuff. So I recognizing that when even though you take a certainly well known, longstanding book that there will be some artistic license. Taylor: And I do think, just shout out, if you wanted to read about Odyssey Times from the female perspective, A Thousand Ships by Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Was it? Taylor: Natalie Hines is a good kind of counter narrative. But it's not uplifting at all because not good to be a woman back then. Jenny Gumm: Those times. No. Taylor: Not good at Jenny Gumm: No. Taylor: all. Jenny Gumm: What are Taylor: week? Jenny Gumm: you checking in on this week? Taylor: Okay, so I started watching this show on Netflix called Freerin. It's a anime about an elf Jenny Gumm: okay. Taylor: who lives for a long time and she went on a quest that kind of changed her whole life. And my sister recommended it to me and I just like started ripping through it, even though it's pretty sedated. but it's very I like it because you see the elf who lives for a thousand years interacting with like mortals and how she has to kind of have a different like cross to their understanding. And she takes on a like human apprentice. And the apprentice is getting frustrated when Fririn, the elf, wants to take 10 years to do something. And of course, he is. Jenny Gumm: 'cause it's so long for a human. Yeah. Taylor: And so it's very sweet and cute, but I do kind of like that idea of what is time and how what it means to all of us based on I guess like what our mortality is and it's a it's a sweet show and I don't really watch TV so it's fun to have something that actually took me in and kept me interested. Jenny Gumm: it sounds cool. I guess we forget it when you think about time. Sometimes a day can seem so long. And sometimes then when you step back and realize though, we're only here for not very long when you think about history. So Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: yeah. Taylor: Yeah, mortality, man. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: It comes for all of us. Jenny Gumm: It does. You know me. Shout out to my We Croak app that lets me know five times a day I'm gonna die. And it has helped me Taylor: Yeah, that's Jenny Gumm: be in perspective about death. So I don't know, it works for me. Taylor: I think that would just make me think, wow, I should have another sweet treat, cause what if I die tomorrow and I didn't eat this Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: cookie? Okay. So this week our topic is where do you draw the line with creators of media, books, whatever that you love or loved or mean something to you? And how do you kind of puzzle through those questions and we're gonna focus on Harry Potter and one Miss J.K. Rowling, Turf Extraordinaire, for our first episode. What? We don't we don't have to be polite to her. Jenny Gumm: She is. So yeah. No, we do not. She is not polite to many people. Taylor: No. So I thought We could start with kind of a little background on what the books meant to us. And I feel like you can do a better job at first because they came to me through you, reading them to me as a kid. So Jenny Gumm: Yeah. So we looked up and the first book came to the US in September of nineteen ninety-eight. So you were four. And so I don't think I got them then, but you started reading really young. And I traveled on and off and we started reading them together probably when you were about five. Or six. And so consequently, I used to read them to you before you went to bed. By the time you were five or six, you could read them yourself. But they were something that we did together. And then because you were reading them, I read them all too. And we would get them as soon as they got out. And we would go see the movies. And I loved everything I I've been reading for a long time and read a lot of books too. And to me, she really just was be able to create worlds that you could immediately Delve into, and I think it's such an was is an extraordinary gift to be able to write like that, that you can literally imagine yourself in that world. And so, yeah, you and then you started reading them all yourself, and you had them all. I think you had them hardcover and paperback and kept them with you for a Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: long time and reread them. And And not only for each other, but then when we would go to the movies we would take your friends. So it was you know, not only between us, but also kind of a community. And our most of people in our family also read. Taylor: Yeah, you were definitely mom MVP. You were always doing the thing that other parents didn't want to do. The midnight movies, the warp tour, the black eyed peas concert. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. That's true. Well But it was fun for me. So I mean it wasn't a tour. And your friends were great, so it wasn't torture or anything. Taylor: So a a question I had was, did you read the books before you read them to me? Jenny Gumm: I didn't read the first one before I read it to you. I just started reading with you, but I did go ahead and finish it. but no, Taylor: Mm mm. Jenny Gumm: I hadn't read them before I read them to you. And so it was probably a couple of years after they came out that we got on the bandwagon. But then once, you know, it probably maybe the first one had been out a bit, but then the as they continued to come out, then you would just read them and I would read them too. Sometimes you would read them before me, sometimes I would read them before you did. But no, I hadn't, I didn't know. That's why, as you know, I could not pronounce Hermione's name. And we said it all wrong for a long time. Taylor: I think families across America learned how to pronounce Hermione when the first Jenny Gumm: Yes. Taylor: movie came out. I'm guessing you weren't the only parent that was mispronouncing it. But that's so interesting because I in my head thought that you read them before me and kind of brought them to me later. I think in my head the timeline that more books had come out before I started actively. participating in the reading process, you know? but Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: like looking back on it, I guess that's not true. it's just funny how Jenny Gumm: You maybe the first one, I'm trying to think. But pretty shortly. Yeah. You were reading them pretty shortly. But I still read to you when Taylor: I mean I was obsessed. Jenny Gumm: yeah, I know. And I still read to you even when you could read. So not for too long. I know. Taylor: They were everything. They were everything to me. The movies, the books. I mean I I even for a long time like still watch the movies at Christmas with my partner's brother. I have been to the Universal Studios in Hollywood multiple times. and yeah, I like Had the computer game, had the video game. I don't know. Like it was ran read fan fiction when the real books weren't enough. Like I'm deep, or I was. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: Which I guess gets us to the next part of it, which is what did our friend J.K. Rowling do to make us decide to quit? Her lovely world of characters that we loved so much. Jenny Gumm: So we did some research on this. We know generally, and many of you may or may not have heard. However, we did go back and look at where J.K. Rowling started coming out against transgender people. And it actually started when she liked a tweet in 2018 and that compared transgender women to men in dress. And then she tweeted support for a woman in 2019 that people should dress and live how they please, but condemned forcing women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real. And so, but after that, she kind of backed up. She would back up and move forward, but then she really, really Dived in deep when she in June of 2020 published a lengthy web essay on her website. And I think what we started to see is then the cast had to respond to it, then it started becoming an issue for people. And since then it's just continued, she's just continued to proliferate her views. And as recently, you know, she was pushing for. A Supreme, a UK Supreme Court ruling. She actually was actively working towards that. And I think part of the problem is that it's just she continues to double down on it. And so when you think about that and you think about our viewpoints, it just became something that to me it's certainly people are entitled to their views. However, it's not a view that I want to support. And I think the thing is, is the Harry Potter won't go away. Cause now HBO is coming out with a series there and she keeps, you know, for a while was writing books and continued. And so I just for me, the more she doubles down, the more it just emphasizes to me that I just can't continue to support her and her efforts. Taylor: Mom, she she's still writing books. I volunteer Jenny Gumm: Is she? Taylor: for an organization that like puts books is gets books out into the hands of K through twelve youth in New York City. And we got a big shipment from Scholastic that had like new books for the year. There were three different JK Rowling items. Two in the Harry Potter franchise Jenny Gumm: wow. Taylor: and one just I forget with some new book she wrote. Jenny Gumm: So she's keeps being prolific in her writing. Yeah. I mean, Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: I do think it's interesting because her her point of view is she would say nuanced. It's just that she believes that in her words, I'm gonna quote this, the legal recognition of gender ident identity as self-declared threatens protections built around biological sex. But I think we know that that's not true. And so I do think she might argue that it's a nuanced view and that it's not anti People being trans, just the protections that they would receive based on their gender. And to me, it almost makes it worse because why do you need that nuance? I mean, if people are protected because they're women, then all women are protected. And so it almost in a weird way, by trying to nuance it, makes it even harder to understand. Taylor: Yeah, and I think her if she even tried to say that, which I would I don't know if she would in twenty twenty six anymore, but I think it falls apart because Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: she's consistently misgendering people online, Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: using dead names, being super disrespectful to trans people, in a way that if you actually had any sort of good intention, you wouldn't do because That's just disrespect and like disrespect is not good intentioned. And I think that's kind of when I've had discussions with friends about it, when they say, it's nuanced. I just always want to push back on that because any sort of subjugation that you decide to kind of give wiggle room to for someone else is giving other people the same right to do that to you. And I just have a super hard time with like some white lady. Like I'm a white lady. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: I I have most things. Like my life is pretty pretty great. And like I just have a hard time thinking that like my life is gonna be materially worse because like trans people get equal access and like equity in our world. it's like a very Kind of disgusting premise, honestly. Jenny Gumm: Well, I think it it is hard when you are looking for human rights across the board and to think that something like this would in any way hinder the rights of anyone. It just it doesn't hold up. And I think it just I think also because of the voice she has, to your point, she continues to proliferate. Harry Potter continues to be a big part of our culture. And she has a strong voice. And so what she says does make a difference, also. And so it's just I don't, distasteful maybe? I don't know. And Taylor: NG has so much money. The money is like Jenny Gumm: Yes. And Taylor: endless. Jenny Gumm: and so at this point it's disappointing and I j I haven't honestly since that first couple things I really haven't I don't have any books anymore. I haven't read anything. I haven't watched any of the movies. I haven't done any of that. Taylor: Yeah, it took me a minute because I I really do sympathize with people who have such a connection to these Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: books because I I really did. Like it feels like such a big part of my childhood and like it's in my like cultural learnings of growing up, but I think at some point I stopped being able to watch it without thinking about her. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: And without the knowledge that supporting it is just enriching her. And I don't I don't believe that if you reread your books that Jenny Gumm: No. Taylor: you love. And I honestly don't fault people who still engage with the franchise I do have complicated feelings about the new stuff, but I do understand how nostalgic it is. And I am a millennial, so that's basically we're doomed to be nostalgic for life. as a generation. But Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: I do think for me, it was when I couldn't even watch. Like nothing about it could be separated from her. And I like got angry, like I started getting pissed. That she Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: had to do this to something I loved so much. And of course, there's like flaws with the story, there's flaws with characterization, whatever. But like, I was a kid when I read them, like I wasn't thinking deeply. I was just thinking, how cool would it be to have magic? And Jenny Gumm: I know. Well, I think even as an adult, you could you could really imagine it and it was so cool. And I think too is because I went with you and your friends and it was a it was it was to it brought the experience out of the books into life and I loved them all and yeah, I mean I'd probably don't have as much of an attachment to you because I read them more of as an adult. But I do have really fond memories. And I think that's the other part, is regardless of what's happened, I still have fond memories of the books. I have fond memories of going to the midnight movies. And that is not hasn't changed for me because in that moment, it was all the things that I experienced. I just think now, and this is, I think, what's hard is where is it that you make choices to disengage from things. But then also the one thing that you're you know you're talking about and we do have is that we get to vote with our wallet on Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: things. And that's one of the few ways as a private citizen that we have to make our voices known. And so Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: that became something. So at that point I started disengaging. But to your point, I mean I think you said there's a Broadway show. It's not going away. It's Taylor: No. Jenny Gumm: it's everywhere that we look. Taylor: And it still remains one of the only examples of frizzy haired readers that are also badass. So I am a frizzy haired girl who Jenny Gumm: Yes. True. That is true. Taylor: loves reading. Of course I was gonna love Hermione. Jenny Gumm: I know. Taylor: but I think jumping off of what you're saying about the like voting with your wallet, I do think that's kind of where this all culminates when you see talk about people like J.K. Rowling or other media and conversations that are similar is that There is this notion that cancellation is bad or has like gone too far or has done this or that. And what is always lost in that conversation, or not always, I'm sure people are having a nuanced conversation somewhere on the internet. I haven't seen it. But this Jenny Gumm: No. The internet is not for nuance. Taylor: But it is one of the only ways we can use our power. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: Like we live in America voting the Electoral College. That's not real. like Jenny Gumm: No, well it voting in your state and local is real mostly. Yeah, I know. I know. Yeah. Taylor: No, I mean, you know what I mean. It's you can you can see real change when a group of people choose Jenny Gumm: You can. Taylor: not to buy something. Like we saw with the Tesla stock. I Jenny Gumm: We did. Taylor: mean, it didn't hold him down much. SpaceX. But whatever. Like Tesla really Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Well at that point, you have to remember he at that amount of wealth, there's n there's not a lot we can do. So I I do think though it made people aware. Friends of mine who have Teslas were putting stickers on their cars saying they bought them before. I mean, so it did if nothing else, it was it it was culturally relevant and changed people's and and made people aware and changed people's thinking. So, and I do think that, you know, with the whole Jimmy Kimmel thing, people were canceling their subscriptions. And so Disney had to make a difference, make a change because people were canceling. And I think that that's a couple things. I mean, thankfully we have so much at our fingertips to look at. although I would wonder if they had a sporting event somebody wanted to watch, if they would still have canceled that because that wouldn't be the question. However, people canceled and we do have choices, and people are willing to go without things if if they Taylor: Mm-hmm. Jenny Gumm: feel that the brand or the person is not aligned with their values. And in it and I think what Target was another good example. Is they had to make some changes to their policies and those types of things because people stopped shopping there. And Taylor: And I think, yeah, we have to remember. I think Like me canceling Disney Plus does nothing, but thousands of people doing it did do something. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: And I think that it's important to remember we're not stuck under these conditions. You're never stuck. Jenny Gumm: No, we're not. Taylor: And we do have free speech. It's one of the things that I think we take for granted in America. Because it's so woven into our culture. And of course, you can debate whether we really do and who gets punished really by the system. but ostensibly, we have free speech and we can use that speech to connect with other people and make choices and learn about things and make a difference. And I guess I'm just hoping more people decide to stop buying J.K. Rowling books. Jenny Gumm: I know. Taylor: Go to the library, you guys. Steal it. Do something. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Well, yes, if you want to read, go to the library. I think yeah. I mean, and you're not you're not gonna really impact her at this point. And I do think having the conversation is important. And there are plenty, there are millions of books to read, let's face facts. And so that's the other part. There's not that there's one choice and We get to choose the types of authors we read, and we get to choose the people's voices we want to listen to. And it's not saying that we shouldn't listen to people that we disagree with. in this case, though, it when their stance is when you have a person whose stance is so different than yours and so against your values, it's not just a a difference of opinion. It's really a values question. We do it's a one small way that we can. And even if it's just for ourselves is, you know, paying, having that conversation with yourself about what what when you live your life, what is it that you are supporting? Taylor: Mm-hmm. Yeah, because it doesn't Jenny Gumm: And Taylor: Doesn't feel good to like live incongruently with your values. Jenny Gumm: Exactly. Taylor: I think that's why these conversations even come up is because it's like you're seeing it and you have this like icky feeling, you hear a song and you're like, like didn't that guy harass someone? Like it you Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: don't feel great when you are living that way sometimes. And I think that is kind of at least for me, the point where I'm like, Okay. Like this is something that I've gotta get rid of in my life because why there's so like you said, there's so much out there. Why consume something that gives me that icky feeling, you know? Jenny Gumm: Yeah. I mean, and in fairness, in this country our basic usefulness as citizens is to be consumers. And so Taylor: You know. Jenny Gumm: if you if you think about that, then we do get to choose how we consume and what we consume and and sometimes it's convenience and those types of things. And Again, I don't think it's about canceling, it's just giving people choices. And other people will not make that choice. And that's okay too. I think one of the things, you know, as we've been thinking about this and looking at this is recognizing that everybody does have the ability to say anything. I think also, though, when we say things and have opinions, we need to know that people will agree disagree with us. And that if you are somebody who has a very big platform and the ability to reach a lot of people that you can say anything, should be able to say anything. And then there like everything else in life, there are consequences to that. And so if people choose not to come to your shows or not to buy, if you're a corporation, not to buy your products or something, then it doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means that there might be a consequence to your actions. And I think what's happening now is that no one I think part of it is is there's just this feeling that there's a view that if you speak out about certain things, there will be punishment. And that it's not about punishment when it's boycotting. It's about just people using their voices to say no thanks. Taylor: Well, and it's so funny that the people who are the most against cancel culture, I can't get rid of them. They're canceled, but they're on TV, they're on podcasts, they're on every social media app, they're screaming on my roof, they're literally Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: nonstop everywhere, yet somehow they have been canceled. And I'm just like At this point, I mean, we are in a situation where every viewpoint can be monetized. And I Jenny Gumm: That's true. Taylor: like part of it is you want people to have a reaction to you, so you can go to the right wing grift pipeline and make money just yelling slurs and calling it a joke. But it is weird to think. About anyone demanding universal love for their viewpoint. Especially a hateful one. Jenny Gumm: Yes. I mean, no one is for everyone. Taylor: Some people are Paddington Bear, who could hate him. He's not saying Jenny Gumm: Okay, Patty. That's true. Okay. Taylor: slurs. and if he ever has, no one tell me because he's precious to me. he has been around for a very long time, so I guess Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: it's possible he did some. weird British imperialism stuff at one point. But Jenny Gumm: Probably. Taylor: but yeah, it is a funny way that this has been branded into this. Jenny Gumm: Everyone doesn't have to like each other. I mean, I think that I always have had the premise that we should be respectful and kind to each other. We don't have to like everybody. Not everyone's gonna buy your product, not everyone's gonna buy your output, not everyone's gonna listen to you. And I mean the cool thing is is with social media and everything, people who didn't used to have a voice can have a voice. And they even if it's just a few people that they connect with, they may be connecting with people. I think the downside Taylor: Mm. Jenny Gumm: is that when people are hateful, they can be hateful very quickly and probably in ways Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: where they would never walk up to the person and say that thing. And so I think that's where with JK Rowling, to me, it's I suppose we're not saying anything here that I wouldn't say to her, is that I'm curious and disappointed about your view. Taylor: well. I think I would boo her if I saw her in real life. I'm not gonna lie. Like I think Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: I'm at the level of like she's in one of those scenarios where I would feel comfortable booing her to her face. Jenny Gumm: Okay, so but that is a choice you would make to her face. So if you boo her on the internet, you would still do that. I think what we're, you know, what I'd be I am always curious of when I read people's snarky comments and those types of things, is that a conversation you would have or is that something you would do? I think that it allows for anonym some I'm not gonna pronounce it right, anonymity. And so consequently I I do think that that's why these things get escalated. When it was boycotting Taylor: Mm, yeah. Jenny Gumm: with signs or people on the street, it was a group of people who came together, where now so much of this gets escalated because people are piling on on the internet, which has also made it seem like people are less tolerant of differences. And I don't think that that's what it is necessarily. Taylor: Yeah, I think there's two levels to it, right? Like harassment online is a real thing. And I think one, there's a difference between a private person, even if you're like tweeting or posting Jenny Gumm: Mm-hmm. Taylor: on Instagram and you're public, you're not necessarily a public person, but like a celebrity or like a reality star. And I do think you are inviting some level of criticism. But of course there is a point where it goes too far. Like when people are following people in real life, when they're like sending Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: graphic rape fantasies to women, like it does go too far. And like I'm not I don't condone that, but I do think like if you're being snarky online about a public person, I think that's just part of your job, Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: unfortunately. And it's not the fun job fun part of the job, but I mean in the attention economy, someone being snarky about you is giving you more money, which I guess brings Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: up another question, like even discussing this topic, somebody might seek out of Harry Potter Jenny Gumm: Yes. Taylor: content based on it. Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Well I think It's like most things, it's taking a step back and then recognizing there isn't just one way to approach it. However, and then we all get to decide. I just yeah. to your point, when you get the ick, you get the ick. So I have the ick with her. That's all. Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. It's no good. But I think one other thing that this whole conversation makes me think about is the fact that your opinion can change Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Taylor: and you can evolve. when I first got back into reading, I refused to read any male authors. Because I was so over it. I was verging on Miss Andry for a moment there. And over time as I read more, I s I put more male authors in. Not usually white men, unless they're the classics, but I definitely realized how I was coming off or not coming off, but I was creating a very very narrow vision for what reading meant to me. And I think that just goes to show that you're always allowed to change your mind. Jenny Gumm: You are. Taylor: J.K. Rowling, I'm talking directly to you. You can turn this ship around. You can change your mind. And I will go see the cursed child on Broadway the day you do. Jenny Gumm: I think the other thing that you brought up too was nostalgia. And I think that there's in the society, there's a lot about nostalgia and people looking back. And and one of my favorite authors is Brittany Brown, and she did has a book on a Atlas of the Heart, and it talks a lot about different emotions and ones that are both, you know, positive, negative. It's not that nostalgia is a bad thing, but I love that her Definition of nostalgia, and I want to read this, is we define nostalgia as yearning for the way things used to be in our often idealized and self-protective version of the past. And so that's where I think that when we're nostalgic, we have to be really careful too, that we're not nostalgic for something that really was never there. And it also we can have very fond memories and appreciate what. the feelings that those memories bring without thinking that our memories are accurate always. because what we tend to do in those cases is remember things as as we'd like them to be. Yeah, which is a good way, you know, it's not a bad thing. It just to your point, being cognizant of that as we remember and we recall things because thing every era, especially when we're being nostalgic about time periods, every era was equally as complicated as the one we live in now. Taylor: That's such a good point. It's like when you see people being like, I yearn for like the homesteading life, and it's like, girl, you couldn't have a credit card back then. Your husband Jenny Gumm: Not to mention Taylor: could beat the shit out of you. Like in p that's true. Jenny Gumm: It was hard work. I mean the what those pioneers, if you really think about when we think about the day to day life, those people were so courageous and brave with what and harmful to and so it was equally complicated as it is today. And I think what Taylor: But Mom, Ballerina Farm is out on her farm with her like eight kids, homesteading in a beautiful gown. Jenny Gumm: So I will have to look that up. Taylor: And it looks so nice for all of us who are toiling away at a desk, you know? Jenny Gumm: Well, in fairness, when you were six you only wanted to wear ball gowns to school. So you that would probably be your perfect life. Yeah. Taylor: I was preparing for my homesteader. I think while JK Rowling is kind of like this does feel like something that's been, you know, it's been talked about, it's been discussed, it's been beat it's it's the horse we've beat to death. But Jenny Gumm: Yes, we have. Taylor: I do think it's still a conversation that feels important to keep having because I think The reason for it all, like coming back to like the fact that you actually can make a difference and you can participate and you can change things is kind of why we want these conversations why people even bring light to what she's doing in the first place. I think that We do wanna see change. People do want other people to understand why they're not interacting with something anymore, why it's important to them that you know that this guy Like has sexual assault allegations against him, why it's important to know that like the person who wrote this book is racist. Why there are these things that can influence people, and it is good to talk about them. And it is good to take a little temperature check on yourself to see where how you feel about it and if that's something that you care about, and like what you might want to do about it, whether it's just not reading or like doing something out in your community to make even more of a difference. It's like these kind of conversations. Conversations can lead to more than you might initially think about when you're just saying seeing people yelling about JK Rowling on the internet, you know? Jenny Gumm: Yeah. Well, I think in conversations too is sometimes we get caught in a loop in our heads. And that that loop is not taking into consideration other people's perspectives or even one other person's perspective. And then when we have a conversation, it helps bring light and shed light and helps us think about things that we wouldn't have thought about and think about things in a different way than maybe we would have. And I think also in our case, when I first heard about it, I did go do some research because I think that's the other thing we can do today is see the headline and make a lot of assumptions. And you really do if you know, at least for me, if I'm gonna start to form a strong opinion about something, I at least wanna know I'm working with the facts as opposed to something that I read on a headline or a brief Instagram post and then start. making, you know, going from A to Z super quickly and then find out a week later that the headline was not rooted in any kind of facts. So I think that's also why when you say things to people or when you're having a conversation, taking the time to look something up, it can be helpful just to help you Taylor: Yeah. Jenny Gumm: keep keep honest with yourself. Taylor: Yeah, for sure. And do you know what this means for our movement, mom? Jenny Gumm: What does it mean? Taylor: Those very annoying people that are policing everyone online. They are part of our movement. We are them. Jenny Gumm: They are we are them and they are us. And they have every right, again, starting in the beginning, to free speech, just as we do. Taylor: Yeah, they do. They do. And we have to accept that. Jenny Gumm: Yes, we do. Taylor: Okay, that's what we are checking into this week. Thank you all so much for listening.