Latest / Inside Politics / Can Albanese claim credit for Trump’s peace plan?

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Can Albanese claim credit for Trump’s peace plan? · Inside Politics

0:01
S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
0:04
S1: This is inside politics. I'm Paul Satchell, it's Friday, the
0:07
S1: 3rd of October. The Prime Minister has just returned from
0:11
S1: ten days of high wire diplomacy. Initially the United Nations
0:14
S1: in New York, before swinging through London and stopping by
0:17
S1: Abu Dhabi on his way home. He's claimed some credit
0:20
S1: for helping push along a potential peace plan for Gaza.
0:23
S1: Spruiked Australia's social media ban on the global stage and
0:27
S1: drummed up interest in Australia's green transition and critical minerals reserve.
0:31
S1: Foreign affairs correspondent Matthew Knott was on the PM's plane
0:34
S1: and he joins us today. Knotty, how are you?
0:37
S2: It's nice to be here.
0:44
S1: You've been away for a couple of weeks in New York, London,
0:47
S1: the UAE. Sometimes these trips can look a bit different
0:52
S1: up close to how they appear to us back home.
0:54
S1: What were your observations of the Prime Minister? And what
0:57
S1: did you observe about the state of the world we're in?
0:59
S2: Yeah, I'm not sure how it seemed from an Australian
1:03
S2: point of view, but the striking thing, having been on
1:06
S2: some of these trips with the Prime Minister and particularly
1:08
S2: in the first term, was a real difference in the
1:12
S2: level of ambition that he had on this trip and
1:15
S2: a difference in his persona in, in the way he
1:19
S2: was acting. You know, the way he was feeling was
1:22
S2: clearly a much more confident, much more self-assured in what
1:26
S2: he was doing. He wasn't just there to ride the
1:29
S2: wave of the summits. Uh, even on something like the
1:33
S2: Middle East, which the government repeatedly says, we're not a
1:36
S2: major player in that part of the world. And they
1:39
S2: still do say that he was right in their meeting
1:42
S2: across those three stops that you mentioned, actually meeting several
1:46
S2: of the key players. So the trip started with a
1:49
S2: meeting with the King of Jordan. Then in London, he
1:53
S2: met with Tony Blair, who was just emerging, could play
1:57
S2: a key role in this Gaza transitional authorities, and then
2:01
S2: on the way back and met the president of the UAE.
2:03
S2: And the UAE is another key country looking ahead to
2:08
S2: a post-war Gaza. So he was right in the middle
2:11
S2: of it. There at this two state solution conference are
2:15
S2: hosting an event on Australia's social media ban, with other
2:19
S2: leaders from around the world coming to watch and saying
2:22
S2: they wanted to learn from Australia. And even while there
2:26
S2: was a lot of speculation at the start of the
2:28
S2: trip about Will, he won't he meet Donald Trump? The
2:31
S2: Prime Minister was very confident, looking, very relaxed, and that
2:35
S2: all made sense when it emerged that he had locked
2:38
S2: in a white House meeting with the president.
2:41
S1: We'll get to the Gaza peace plan and what role
2:43
S1: the Prime Minister did or did not play in it.
2:45
S1: But just quickly, I want to talk about his stop
2:47
S1: through London. The prime minister was pretty widely criticized back
2:51
S1: home for giving a speech at the Labour Party conference
2:54
S1: on right wing populism and backsliding on democracy in Australia.
2:58
S1: At the same time, Andrew Hastie, the outspoken Liberal frontbencher,
3:01
S1: made a real ripple with his interventions on what Conservative
3:05
S1: Australia needs to do to win. And he sparked a
3:07
S1: conversation about the populist right in Australia. It's nowhere near
3:11
S1: as potent as it is in the UK with the
3:12
S1: rise of Reform and Nigel Farage. I'm interested in what
3:16
S1: the Prime Minister said at the Labour Party conference and
3:18
S1: a meeting with progressive leaders the day before, on what
3:21
S1: the difference is in the political climate in the UK
3:25
S1: and Australia. Why is Labour ascendant here and really struggling
3:29
S1: in the polls in the UK, according to our Prime Minister?
3:32
S2: Well, it was very striking. They're arriving in the UK.
3:36
S2: The difference from Australia and the difference that the Starmer
3:40
S2: government there is experiencing compared to where Albanese is, even
3:44
S2: at the Labour conference, there were anti-immigration protesters there outside.
3:51
S2: This issue is dominating all of British politics. While we
3:55
S2: were there, Keir Starmer was announcing plans for a digital
3:59
S2: ID card that all Britons would have to use to
4:03
S2: show that they're there legally. Nigel Farage is dominating the
4:08
S2: political landscape there and that's what Anthony Albanese flew into.
4:13
S2: And this pretty controversial appearance in Liverpool, it really stood
4:17
S2: out as being different to everything else that was happening
4:21
S2: on the trip. Having a bilateral meetings, um, the UN
4:26
S2: General Assembly, that was all very diplomatic. And yeah, attending
4:30
S2: this progressive conference, uh, that was clearly parties from the
4:35
S2: centre left. But there he was meeting with the Prime
4:38
S2: Minister of Canada, the prime minister of Spain. He was
4:41
S2: talking to them about free trade.
4:43
S1: All progressive leaders. Right?
4:44
S2: Yeah. Progressive, all progressive leaders. But, um, and I don't
4:47
S2: think there's anything wrong with, uh, Anthony Albanese talking about
4:50
S2: the nature of centre left politics and doing some big
4:53
S2: picture thinking. He thinks this is important.
4:56
S3: The labor mission has never been a theoretical exercise or
5:01
S3: just a rhetorical one. Our work is measured in deeds,
5:06
S3: and it depends on delivery, on change. Our citizens can
5:10
S3: see tangible, practical outcomes that make a positive difference to
5:15
S3: people's lives. This is where.
5:17
S2: At this stage of his second term, it's a bit
5:20
S2: of that. Paul Keating, give them the big picture. What's
5:24
S2: the narrative? And he sees the speech in Liverpool as
5:28
S2: part of that. But there's no getting around the fact
5:30
S2: it was a very party political event and that Keir
5:34
S2: Starmer is a man under pressure. So I think what
5:37
S2: you see the difference in that, Anthony Albanese is benefiting
5:41
S2: from the fact that Australia now doesn't have this issue
5:45
S2: with boat people arriving like we used to. He's benefiting
5:50
S2: from the fact that that's not on the agenda. Immigration
5:52
S2: obviously is a big issue here, as we've seen with
5:56
S2: the recent protests, but it's not nearly as significant as
6:01
S2: it is in the UK or Europe. That was dominating
6:05
S2: the entire discussion at this progressive summit was, how do
6:10
S2: center left leaders pursue progressive politics while not letting this
6:16
S2: immigration issue get away from them? So the climate is
6:20
S2: very different. And, uh, at this stage of his second
6:24
S2: term with facing not really an effective opposition in Australia,
6:30
S2: that's just totally different to the climate in the UK.
6:33
S1: It seems to me to be kind of dripping in irony.
6:36
S1: Nigel Farage is campaigning in the UK for a boat
6:39
S1: turn back policy that our conservatives championed under Tony Abbott
6:43
S1: and Scott Morrison. Uh, labor very reluctantly embraced that policy.
6:48
S1: It's quite a difficult thing for a center left party
6:50
S1: to do. And now the Prime Minister is in the
6:51
S1: UK spruiking that policy is the way the centre left wins.
6:55
S2: Yes, he certainly wasn't explicitly talking about boat turn backs,
7:00
S2: for example. But he did allude to the fact that
7:04
S2: Australia has this under control. So yes, I think he's
7:07
S2: reaping the benefits of some very tough decisions that other
7:10
S2: people took.
7:11
S1: Well, it might be anathema to him to use language
7:13
S1: like that, but that is the nature of the policy.
7:15
S2: Mhm.
7:23
S1: Let's move on to Gaza where now a couple of
7:25
S1: days on from the 20 point peace plan, Trump announced
7:28
S1: at the white House with Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister,
7:31
S1: along his side. What does Hamas said about the deal,
7:34
S1: and what's the reaction been like in Israel in its
7:36
S1: early stages?
7:38
S2: Well, Hamas has given conflicting signals, which I think does
7:43
S2: make sense when you think about this plan, which is
7:46
S2: striking for the fact that there are two parties in
7:49
S2: this conflict, Israel and Hamas. And any end to this
7:54
S2: war is going to be an agreement between the two
7:56
S2: of them. But Hamas has had no role in this process,
7:59
S2: certainly no direct role. I'm sure there was backchannel negotiations
8:03
S2: with countries like Qatar, and they would have been aware
8:06
S2: what was going on. But this is a US Israeli
8:09
S2: proposal backed by Arab nations, particularly in the region that's
8:14
S2: being presented to Hamas as an ultimatum.
8:17
S4: What the future holds for the Palestinians, no one really knows.
8:20
S4: But the plan that we put forward today is focused
8:23
S4: on ending the war immediately getting all of our hostages back,
8:29
S4: getting everything back. Hard to believe when you even say it.
8:34
S4: And creating conditions for durable Israeli security and Palestinian success.
8:40
S4: Israeli security is going to be involved. We're going to
8:43
S4: help you.
8:43
S2: So we've heard different things from Hamas leaders. We've heard
8:46
S2: that it's biased, that it's one sided, that it's there
8:50
S2: are so many problems with it in terms of what
8:53
S2: it would mean for the Palestinian people, but they've also
8:55
S2: said that they're open to looking at it. I think
8:59
S2: what you'd expect is for Hamas, which is under a
9:02
S2: huge amount of pressure from neighboring countries, and Hamas is
9:06
S2: very aware of the media narrative. They're very aware of
9:10
S2: the way things get reported. So I don't think Hamas
9:14
S2: wants headlines of Hamas rejects peace plan. Hamas wants the
9:20
S2: war to continue. So one possibility is that Hamas says
9:24
S2: we welcome this plan, but we have some of our
9:26
S2: own ideas, and that puts it back into Netanyahu's court,
9:31
S2: who's presented it as you have to do everything we
9:33
S2: want right now within 72 hours, release the hostages. So
9:37
S2: I think Hamas, even though many of their leaders have
9:40
S2: been killed, you know, there are still some people left
9:42
S2: who will be thinking this through strategically. That's one option
9:46
S2: for them. But the idea of them unilaterally disarming, handing
9:52
S2: over all their weapons, leaving Gaza is pretty, fantastical idea.
9:58
S1: And they've rejected many of those pleas in the past. Right?
10:01
S1: This is quite an asymmetric deal. So you do wonder
10:04
S1: what's in it for Hamas, other than succumbing to pressure
10:08
S1: from Arab states and potentially easing the suffering of their people?
10:12
S1: But they have noted in the past Hamas leaders that
10:14
S1: the suffering of their people might be worth it in
10:17
S1: some regard for the elevation of the Palestinian cause internationally.
10:20
S1: So do you see this dragging on and not coming
10:22
S1: to a resolution soon?
10:25
S2: Yeah. Hamas's whole raison d'etre is is armed struggle that's
10:29
S2: in their DNA. That's what they're all about. There's a
10:33
S2: lot of discussion about even the fact they came to
10:35
S2: govern Gaza was not really part of their original rationale,
10:40
S2: like their passion is not providing social services and education
10:45
S2: and healthcare and and all that. That's not really what
10:48
S2: they're about. It's armed struggle with Israel to try and
10:51
S2: achieve a big aim. So the thing with this plan is, though,
10:57
S2: there are so many flaws in it. Are there so
11:00
S2: many holes in it? Are there so many things that
11:02
S2: are unrealistic about it? Yes. But what the world is
11:05
S2: saying is this is the plan we've got. This is
11:08
S2: a template and this is what we have to deal with.
11:11
S2: Is it better than a few days ago when there
11:13
S2: was absolutely nothing? And the IDF is really into Gaza
11:18
S2: City and, you know, the war's intensifying and carrying on
11:23
S2: towards the two year anniversary of October 7th. This is
11:27
S2: the train that's leaving the station. So everyone's jumping aboard.
11:30
S2: The question is, how do you get Hamas to really, uh,
11:35
S2: lock on to that, even with the hostages? The hostages
11:39
S2: have been their key leverage. You can imagine them thinking
11:42
S2: this through. Okay. If we hand all the remaining hostages,
11:46
S2: living and dead, over to Israel, then what's stopping Netanyahu
11:51
S2: in a few weeks, finding some pretext to start the
11:55
S2: war again. Trump will have received all the credit for
11:59
S2: achieving the release of the hostages. And then will we
12:03
S2: be back at war again? So there's so many ways
12:06
S2: to be skeptical about this plan. Uh, but it's the
12:10
S2: one we've got.
12:11
S1: And on the other side, it's not without risk for Netanyahu. Right?
12:15
S1: He's trenchantly opposed the Palestinian Authority playing a role in Gaza.
12:19
S1: He's trenchantly opposed to statehood. Yet the plan makes reference
12:23
S1: to both. So going down this path risks blowing up
12:26
S1: his own right wing coalition. Isn't that right? Because some
12:29
S1: of these far right ministers, the two who Australia have sanctioned,
12:34
S1: don't agree with those ideas. So is there a chance
12:37
S1: that Israel goes slow on this and lets it fizzle
12:40
S1: out and continues on with its plans in Gaza?
12:43
S2: Yes, I think if you look at it objectively, it's
12:46
S2: a very Israel friendly plan A, particularly in the short
12:50
S2: term when it's most likely that anything would happen, Open.
12:55
S2: It's front loaded to Israel's benefit, this plan. And there's
12:59
S2: many caveats that Netanyahu, for example, standing next to Trump,
13:03
S2: was talking about how we're going to have a very
13:05
S2: staged withdrawal, a slow withdrawal. Experts of homed in, in
13:10
S2: that aspect as as one area where, well, this isn't
13:14
S2: the end to the war and Israel pulling out that
13:17
S2: you might suspect, or you might people might be thinking
13:20
S2: of when they think about the end to the war.
13:23
S2: He's he's reading it in a different way, I think,
13:25
S2: perhaps even than other people. And some of the long
13:29
S2: term ideas in the plan about statehood. It's vague language
13:33
S2: about aspirations for a Palestinian state. The role for the
13:38
S2: Palestinian Authority is vague and contingent on reforms that would
13:43
S2: take years to to take effect, elections all at the
13:47
S2: same thing we've been talking about with the statehood debate here.
13:50
S2: So that's not troubling in the short term for Netanyahu.
13:54
S2: But as you say, the political dynamics in Israel and
13:56
S2: his coalition. Yeah, they don't they don't want the war
14:00
S2: to end at all. And throughout the whole process, the
14:03
S2: big criticism, one of many of Netanyahu, is that he's
14:07
S2: never spoken about what in detail about what's going to
14:10
S2: come after the war. So now he's actually putting his
14:14
S2: name to some ideas here. People may not like them,
14:17
S2: people may want to change them. But he's actually talking
14:21
S2: about the day after the war. That in and of
14:23
S2: itself is controversial in Israel, with his far right cabinet
14:29
S2: ministers who hate this is Netanyahu says one thing in Washington,
14:34
S2: one thing in Israel sends out very different messages. Essentially,
14:38
S2: is this just part of a negotiating tactic for Hamas
14:42
S2: to say no or scuttle the deal in some way?
14:44
S2: And he says, well, we tried. We presented you with
14:47
S2: a deal to end the war, and you didn't take it.
14:49
S2: We're going to keep going on.
14:51
S1: And I noticed some of the opposition leaders, Joe Lapid
14:53
S1: and Benny Gantz offered to hold the coalition up if
14:56
S1: he goes down this path. So maybe that's a that's
14:58
S1: an avenue that pushes Netanyahu to the center of politics. Ironically,
15:03
S1: just on that day after the war that we're talking
15:05
S1: about in hopeful language, what do we know about this
15:07
S1: international stabilization force and this Board of peace that Trump
15:11
S1: says that he would chair? Are they just fuzzy concepts
15:14
S1: that don't have much detail or.
15:16
S2: I think, to be skeptical about it? I think the
15:19
S2: Board of Peace is a way to keep Trump really
15:23
S2: involved in this and kind of brand it as a
15:26
S2: Trump initiative, like he's branded things throughout his life. The
15:30
S2: idea that while running the United States, Trump was the
15:34
S2: America First president who's supposed to be focused on us
15:38
S2: Americans and working class Americans and making their lives better.
15:42
S2: Now he's got this moonlighting role in the Gaza Peace Board.
15:46
S2: I think what everyone says is that's just a way
15:48
S2: of showing Trump that it's his initiative. He's going to
15:51
S2: get credit for anything good that happens here at Tony
15:55
S2: Blair would be doing much more of the work.
15:58
S1: Maybe they'll operate out of a Trump Tower with Gold
16:01
S1: Trump imprint in Gaza City.
16:02
S2: Yeah, that's that's possible. Well, that was part of his
16:05
S2: original Riviera plan.
16:08
S1: Which he shifted away from dramatically. Right?
16:09
S2: Yes. And that's that is good that that was a
16:13
S2: to be honest, pretty crazy idea that was never going
16:16
S2: to happen. But it's good that we're dealing with at
16:18
S2: least more realistic solutions for Gaza that don't involve most
16:23
S2: of the Gazan population. Leaving the area are the stabilization force. Look,
16:28
S2: everyone who's an expert in this area says it will
16:31
S2: be really, uh, complicated. This is something the UN has
16:36
S2: done throughout its lifetime, including countries like Lebanon, much criticized
16:42
S2: for the way it goes, goes about its role, for example,
16:45
S2: like you're up against, say, in Gaza, you have Hamas,
16:48
S2: which is a militant force. You've got the might of
16:53
S2: the Israeli military, UN peacekeepers, how significant are they going
16:58
S2: to be there? Obviously, the Middle Eastern nations around need
17:03
S2: to take a key role and need to be invested
17:07
S2: in making it happen. It would be extremely difficult in
17:11
S2: that withdrawal we were talking about before. Yeah, there's there's
17:14
S2: discussion of at which stage the Israeli military would hand
17:17
S2: over to this stabilization force. That could take a long time.
17:22
S1: Would it be UN backed?
17:24
S2: Presumably I think the UN would have a role. What
17:26
S2: we're talking about here is definitely UN mandated, but with
17:31
S2: a very strong role for particularly the Arab countries in
17:35
S2: the region to lead it. I and other journalists on
17:38
S2: the trip have been asking Anthony Albanese about this, and
17:40
S2: he very much has not ruled out Australia playing a
17:43
S2: role in this force. We would certainly not be the
17:47
S2: main players, but like with the coalition of the Willing
17:51
S2: and Ukraine, He's left open the possibility of Australia being
17:56
S2: involved in some way and playing a role as good
17:59
S2: international citizen, but there's still a lot of detail to
18:04
S2: be spelt out about how it would work.
18:06
S1: Just on Trump, many analysts have said for a long
18:09
S1: time it was always going to be him who had
18:11
S1: enough sway to step in and try and solve this dispute.
18:15
S1: It's quite remarkable that Trump forced Netanyahu to apologise for
18:20
S1: the Qatar bombing at the white House. I heard Greg Sheridan,
18:23
S1: the columnist from The Australian, say that in all of
18:26
S1: his time covering Netanyahu, he's never heard him apologise. Probably
18:29
S1: speaks to Trump's sway. What does it say about the
18:33
S1: role Trump is trying to play? What are his intentions,
18:36
S1: and is it a statement of fact to say that
18:38
S1: he has the most sway on Israel out of anyone
18:40
S1: in the world?
18:42
S2: Definitely. Well, the just the United States in and of
18:45
S2: itself is always crucial for Israel, and that's a key
18:49
S2: role for the Israeli prime minister, whoever that is, is
18:52
S2: to manage the relationship with the US because of the
18:55
S2: military equipment, the weapons that the US provides Israel with.
19:00
S2: They wouldn't have been able to fight this war and
19:04
S2: also everything else going on with Iran, with Lebanon, they
19:07
S2: wouldn't have been able to do all that without all
19:09
S2: the equipment that comes from the US. The Trump Netanyahu
19:14
S2: dynamic is fascinating. We saw really actually, before Trump was inaugurated,
19:19
S2: he essentially forced Netanyahu to agree to a ceasefire agreement,
19:26
S2: but that fell apart when Netanyahu essentially broke it off.
19:29
S2: He didn't want to pursue it through all its stages.
19:32
S2: He just wanted to get as many hostages back as
19:35
S2: he could. Initially, he didn't want to end the war
19:38
S2: at that stage, and since then he's really played a
19:42
S2: Trump at every turn and outplayed him. He restarted the war,
19:47
S2: he bombed Iran and convinced America to become involved with that,
19:51
S2: which Trump initially didn't seem to want to do. It
19:55
S2: goes against his whole philosophy of keeping America out of
19:59
S2: these foreign entanglements. But that Qatar issue that really annoyed Trump,
20:05
S2: to put it mildly. I think that's a key turning
20:08
S2: point here, is that Israel really went a step too far.
20:11
S5: It was the attack no one expected in broad daylight
20:16
S5: near the center of Qatar's capital. It was another demonstration
20:20
S5: of hard Israeli power, a serious escalation in Israel's Multi-front
20:25
S5: war in the Middle East, and a blow for America's
20:29
S5: diplomatic efforts to end the Gaza War.
20:32
S1: Hamas and Qatar has a US military base, has worked
20:35
S1: on negotiations.
20:36
S2: Trump went and visited there. He's very invested in this
20:40
S2: part of the world. Also, from a business perspective, he's
20:43
S2: got a lot going on with these leaders. He's got
20:45
S2: golf courses all over the Middle East. Um, yeah, he's
20:49
S2: getting jets from them. So then when Israel went in
20:53
S2: and tried to assassinate Hamas leaders who were gathering for
20:59
S2: ceasefire negotiations and didn't even succeed in doing it, that
21:04
S2: was a massive failure. And it really annoyed Trump the
21:08
S2: way it played out. That's why he told Netanyahu to
21:11
S2: get on the phone, and he's clearly impatient about how
21:15
S2: long the war has gone on, and he has exerted
21:18
S2: a bit of pressure on Netanyahu. The question with Trump
21:21
S2: always is how long is his attention span? How long
21:24
S2: is he going to stay invested in this? The war
21:27
S2: in Ukraine will come back to prominence again, whereas Netanyahu
21:30
S2: is playing a longer game.
21:32
S1: And Trump's just entering a shutdown in the US. So
21:35
S1: there's so many issues he's he's having to deal with.
21:38
S1: Let's go to our prime minister's role. He said on
21:40
S1: the plane back from the UAE to you this week,
21:43
S1: I think dressed in his, uh, in his New South
21:45
S1: Wales Blues jumper with the name Albanese on the back. Uh,
21:49
S1: that he and the other Western leaders who have been
21:52
S1: pushing for Palestinian statehood in recent weeks, including at the UN,
21:56
S1: did play a role in bringing about this process that
21:59
S1: Trump announced. Is that right? What does he mean by that?
22:03
S2: Well, yes, he is not claiming central credit, but he's
22:08
S2: talking about Australia as being part of this really wave
22:11
S2: of momentum for something to happen here. So it was
22:14
S2: interesting looking at the way it's played out and say,
22:18
S2: Trump's plan, the 20 point plan. There's a bit of
22:20
S2: copying and pasting from other plans. So, uh, Emmanuel Macron
22:25
S2: at his two state solution conference at the UN, which
22:29
S2: neither the Israel or the US had any part of
22:31
S2: and totally opposed, he was talking about a lot of
22:34
S2: the ideas that are in the Trump plan. He was
22:36
S2: talking about the International Stabilisation Force using that terminology. And
22:42
S2: all the leaders at that two state solution conference have
22:47
S2: been working on declarations and plans, and Trump has adopted
22:50
S2: a lot of it, essentially made it a bit more
22:53
S2: pro-Israel and got Israel on board with it. So the
22:57
S2: question really is subconsciously, I think, at a level you'd
23:01
S2: never hear Trump or Netanyahu say that countries like Australia, Canada,
23:07
S2: the UK recognising Palestine, they say they oppose that it
23:12
S2: was counterproductive. It was rewarding Hamas for what had happened.
23:17
S2: They totally opposed it rhetorically. But what Albanese would say
23:21
S2: is this is adding to the pressure. This is adding
23:24
S2: to the momentum. This is adding to the sense that
23:27
S2: the war is simply gone on too long. That's the argument.
23:31
S2: So essentially what Anthony Albanese is saying is that we
23:34
S2: did what we thought was right. Look at the results.
23:37
S2: We've got a peace plan. Uh, things are moving in
23:40
S2: the right direction, and we're playing our role in that.
23:44
S1: And the big argument always from Penny Wong was we
23:47
S1: will only do we've shifted to an earlier recognition, because
23:51
S1: we could do so at a time when we could
23:52
S1: create international momentum for peace. And they can make an
23:55
S1: argument that that's come about. But the US has said
23:58
S1: for weeks that the Macron, Australia UK push actually pushed
24:03
S1: Netanyahu to the right, prompted him to start thinking about
24:06
S1: annexing the West Bank, and that only when Trump stepped
24:09
S1: in to say no to annexation and to bring Netanyahu
24:13
S1: to the table, did the tables get turned? So there's
24:16
S1: another argument, right, that Trump is the only driver of this,
24:20
S1: and he actually cleaned up the mess of the other
24:22
S1: Western leaders. That's an argument that could be made on
24:24
S1: the other side.
24:25
S2: Yeah, Trump is absolutely the key player in how Trump
24:28
S2: is feeling about it. And Trump's patience levels really with Netanyahu.
24:33
S2: And he had a meeting with Middle Eastern leaders, a
24:36
S2: big one at the UN. And so it's clear they've
24:39
S2: said what their absolute redlines are and what they can't accept.
24:43
S2: And he's listening to them. So all this talk about
24:46
S2: annexing the West Bank, they've made clear that that's a
24:48
S2: no go zone. He's also thinking about when he presented
24:51
S2: this plan. It wasn't just an end to the war
24:53
S2: in Gaza. He's talking about eternal peace in the Middle East.
24:56
S2: He wants many more of the Abraham Accords. He likes
25:01
S2: to call them the Abraham Accords.
25:03
S4: I'd like to say it that way, because the real people,
25:06
S4: that's what they call Abraham. I would say Abraham, but
25:11
S4: it's so much nicer when you say Abraham. It's so
25:15
S4: much more elegant.
25:16
S2: He went on a long riff about this at the
25:18
S2: press conference about how you say it, as Trump always does,
25:21
S2: while talking about very serious matters. So yeah, he wants
25:25
S2: to unlock all these deals, these peace agreements throughout the
25:28
S2: Middle East, and he sees this as part of it.
25:31
S2: And so that absolutely would not happen if Israel and
25:35
S2: Netanyahu pursued the maximalist agenda of annexing the West Bank,
25:41
S2: of putting settlements back into Gaza. Nothing's going to happen
25:45
S2: in the future if they were to do that. So
25:47
S2: Trump's essentially said, pull your head in. I'm a friend
25:51
S2: of Israel. I'm looking after you. But there have to
25:53
S2: be some limits here. I want to do things in
25:56
S2: the Middle East, and that's where we've ended up with
25:59
S2: this peace plan.
26:00
S1: Well, it sounded like a fascinating trip. And if the
26:03
S1: last two years has been anything to go by, the
26:05
S1: conflict might drag on. So we'll talk to you about
26:08
S1: it again soon. Thank you for joining us, knotty.
26:10
S2: No worries at all.
26:16
S1: Today's episode was produced by Kai Wang. Our executive producer
26:19
S1: is Tammy Mills, and Tom McKendrick is head of audio.
26:22
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S1: every week. I'm Paul Carl. Thanks for listening.