Latest / Bookies' Favourite / Queen Mary Small Press Fiction Prize 2026 | Director Neil Griffiths & Judge Susanna Crossman

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Queen Mary Small Press Fiction Prize 2026 | Director Neil Griffiths & Judge Susanna Crossman · Bookies' Favourite

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Welcome to the club, bookies favorite book club.
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We read literary shortlists and award-winning novels.
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We've been reading the Queen Mary's Small Press Fiction Prize
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shortlist, an award that recognizes the art of literature
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and promotes works of high merit which have been published in the
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UK and Ireland. The winner will be announced
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today. We have read selected books from
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the long list Small Boat by Vincent de la Croix, published
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by Small Axes and in print of Hope Rd.
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We've also read The Weasel and the Horror by Martha Louisa
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Hernandez Cadenas and published by Heloise Press.
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And On the Grounds Line by Shady Lewis, published by Pyrenee
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Press. And from the shortlist we've
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read figures Crossing the field towards the Group by Rebecca
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Granston and published by the Tangerine Press.
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And Ghost Driver by Nell Osborne, published by Moist
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Books. You can check out our reviews
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and thoughts on those books in our previous episodes.
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There are three more books on the shortlist.
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The first Jasmines by Samia Begum by Hagar Press.
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Daryl by Jackie S Published by Divided Publishing.
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And Spit by David Brennan, published by Epoch Press.
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I'm Aaron Rice, our resident broadcast journalist.
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I'm Lucy. It's just title.
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We were lucky enough to speak with the director of the award,
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Neil Griffith, and one of this year's judges, Susanna Crossman.
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We started by asking Neil why he launched the Queen Mary in the
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first place. Initially, I I always wanted to
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be a writer and I so I published a couple of novels with Penguin.
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The first novel won a very minor prize and was shortlisted for
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some other minor prizes. And then the second novel kind
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of died, but then it got shortlisted for the Costa novel
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of the year and that made a huge impact.
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I was on sales and, and whatever.
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So, so then I, I wrote a third novel which was very different
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and I couldn't place it anywhere until someone told me about
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small presses, which I didn't know anything about.
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You know, I've been reading all my life.
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I've been reading quite deeply into literary fiction or
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whatever, but I sort of wasn't really aware of this kind of
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emerging microclimate. I realised that there might be a
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a problem kind of of, of exposure.
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So, you know, I've won a prize and I'm sure this didn't
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actually that was kind of transformative, but not just
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kind of, it wasn't really financially transformative, but
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but it was kind of in kind of a sense of kind of, you know,
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worth and validation. But it also got a book that had
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died back into the press. So I suddenly thought, because I
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sort of have an entrepreneurial head, I mean, I wish I didn't,
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but I do. Why don't I set up a small press
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prize? Because actually price structure
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is a really useful way for the media to understand what's
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happening. Because you essentially, you
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know, you kind of go, we have a long list and it's this and we
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have a short list and we have a winner.
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And the media understands that because they do that all the
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time with other prizes and whatever.
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And the publishers understand they have, you know, they've got
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eligibility criteria. The whole thing becomes very
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kind of easy and then it becomes a kind of curatorial project for
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like book shops who are interested in small presses but
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don't have the time to kind of whatever.
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So we we end up with a kind of long list that's saying this is
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the best of, of small presses. So it was essentially sort of
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having gone through that myself and realising that it kind of
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did something for me and my book that you could, I could create
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this thing that would do it for the small press community.
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And that was 10 years ago now, because we're, we're in our, you
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know, anniversary year. It used to be called the
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Republic of Consciousness was small presses, which is a
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slightly mad title, but some people love it.
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I slightly grew to hate it. Now it's morphed into the Queen
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Mary's Small Press Fiction Prize, and the Republic's
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consciousness is now Foundation. So we can now do other kind of
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work with small presses and the prize is kind of nested in the
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university and the, the foundation.
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I mean, not that we have any money, but if we had money, we
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could do other things. So we're going to try and do
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that, but we've never had much money.
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But we've in the end we've given about, I think we're about
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around £120,000 we've given to small presses, plus all the
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books we've sold through our book of the month club.
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And, and obviously sales, knock on sales from people being on
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their long list, the shortlist and whatever.
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So I think, you know, we've been a kind of, we've been a good
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thing, but it's been a, it's been a struggle because pretty
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much every morning I wake up after the winner event, we've
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kind of got zero money. The Arts Council have been
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brilliant and you know, a few private donors and etcetera,
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etcetera. And then sometimes universities
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step in before we, you know, have partnerships with the
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University of Westminster, partnership with the University
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of East Anglia, and now a proper kind of more formal partnership
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with Queen Mary. How involved are you with the
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judging? Like do you get to read many of
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the books that are nominated for the prize?
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I was a judge for the first three years and then I realised
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that it was quite difficult because it was kind of my prize
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and I was a judge and the other judges and if we disagreed I
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could kind of go, well oh, it's my prize, I can decide what's on
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the longest 1. And I never did that obviously.
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But I did actually become too emotionally involved and because
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it was my price, there was a sort of conflicts of interest.
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So I decided to move away after like 3 years and just share.
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Now the problem is, is if you chair something and you've read,
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let's say 10 of the books, you can't help but kind of lobby for
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the ones you've you've read and you love.
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So there's one year where a book, I, I mean, I just thought
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it was a winner. I mean, it was just so
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straightforwardly the best book I've read of.
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Let's say there was 60 entries and I've probably only read 10
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of them. But I just thought this was a
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winner. And he didn't even make the long
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list because, you know, judges have, you know, different tapes.
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So then I started thinking, well, that's no good because if
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I'm, if I've read some and not all of them, you know, am I
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actually on some, you know, some unconscious bias going on where
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I'm kind of leading them or I'm kind of making them talk a bit
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more. I'm saying, can you have a look,
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look at that again, etcetera, etcetera, when I'm, you know,
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chairing the meetings. So that went on for a few years
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and then I basically decided, well, actually I'm not going to
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read anything if I haven't read it because it's fallen, you
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know, on my radar for other reasons, which sometimes it
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does. I'm not going to read anything
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until the long list is sorted. And so we have the kind of
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corral, the ideal is I would have read the long list by the
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time we've come to the winner. Then I have to chair a shortlist
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meeting when I read, you know, quite a lot of the long list.
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And then maybe the other unconscious bias comes back in
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again. So I think I've narrowed down
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over the years how to talk to the judges about thinking about
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the long list, which I always say is, should essentially be
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the, the, the broadest range of the best of small fiction.
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But when it comes to the shortlist, we're now thinking
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more about kind of one of the ethoses of the prize is that
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creative risks in in publishing carries the most financial risk.
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You know, sometimes there are, you know, there are novels that
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people love, but they're they're not commercial, but perhaps
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they're slightly more conventional or mainstream in
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form. And so I say, well, you know,
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that's where the longest book, but you also then have to weigh
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up, you know, a book that is maybe conventional in form, that
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is brilliantly executed to a book that is less conventional
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in form but is less well executed.
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You know, what do you what do you do with that?
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So it's a, it's not, it's, you know, it's not, it's not
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straightforward. But I think the, the questions
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that I'm asking the judges are kind of right in terms of why we
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set the prize up. Because, you know, even though
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we're going to, we only give £10,000 away, whatever we give,
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we give, you know, 500 each to the long list and then 1000 more
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to the shortlist and nothing to the winner.
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But I feel that that just those questions in the way get out get
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get over my if I have any unconscious bias, you know, the
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whole prize judging long list short thing is, you know, is is
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is is very kind of ethically fraught.
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You know what the mechanisms that you choose, they are
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imperfect unless you've got a lot of money to pay the judges
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to take a lot of time and whatever, you know, they're
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probably reading too fast. They're reading in kind of
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batches. And then, you know, 1, you know,
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1. And you know, we, we, we try and
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deal with all of that, but it's, it's always, it's always
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imperfect. And you know, I'm sure with
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every prize books that, you know, would have hit a long list
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the year before or the year after don't find it on the the
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year it's entered. And sometimes obviously better
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books don't get kind of judge dependent, isn't it?
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And we've had some, you know, brilliant judging panels, you
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know, who've really, really, and I think close to the best this
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year, actually, they've really, they've taken their job really
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seriously, but with lots of kind of fun and enthusiasm.
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I mean, the good thing is, is they've agreed on a lot, but
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they've also been able to talk others into things that they've
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seen that the others haven't. And then the others have
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discovered that. And that happens often because
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part of the reading process is you if you read a great entry
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and then you read the next entry, you're sort of judging
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that entry by where you felt on this entry.
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And often it kind of doesn't get put in the right place.
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Whereas if it had come first, you might have gone, well,
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that's really great. And then the next one you kind
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of go, Oh, what A and so there's, it's always really
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important that that judges. And part of the thing I tell
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them is, is that if you really hate something, you don't
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discard it. You set it aside because later
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down someone would go, I, you know, I really fucking loved
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that. And you go, I really fucking
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hated it. And you kind of go, well, I
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don't know which one of you is right when you, you may be both
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right, but actually it, you know, it might be you reread it
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and realise how good it is. And then you reread it, realise
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actually it was because you'd, you'd read 5 bad books in a row
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and this seemed like good. And you know, you just kind of
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were full of kind of joy because you'd found something that was
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OK. All that kind of dynamic stuff
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happens. And so my job, I think is to
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just kind of press slightly on the more extreme views just to
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kind of make sure that they're kind of they're kind of anchored
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in reality. Fascinated now because you've
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been talking about it about these like this is not a
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question I had coming into this. It's a question I have now.
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I'm really fascinated by how how do these meetings like, like
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what's the structure does it? You're the chair.
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So I think this these could be things that we apply to our book
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club. There's the structure that I
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would like and the structure that tends to break down in the
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discussion. So really, you know, the idea
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would be to, you know, if we're in a room, it's it's sort of a
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bit easier, but on Zoom it's less so.
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And, and, you know, we've often had a judge in another part of
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the world. So at the moment we have a judge
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in France and then we have a judge in, you know, in, in the
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Republic of Ireland and we've had people who've been shielding
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for reasons or whatever. So a lot goes on on Zoo.
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So the idea is, is, is, is, is to do things quite
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systematically, which is talk about each book, you know, the
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protocol of each, each book. But actually you can't do that
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because actually most books don't make the grade because,
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you know, if we had, you know, 60 books this year and we're
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down to 10, you know, at least thirty of them just aren't going
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to make the grade with any of whatever.
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So actually what you're really doing is you want to spend the
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bulk of the time talking about and wrestling with the books
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that are really in contention. And one of the things I learnt,
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which is part of behavioural economics is this is this thing
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called anchoring, which is the, the first person who speaks
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essentially anchors the conversation.
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So if someone's really down on something, even the everyone
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else, kind of, even if they're more, if they like it more
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actually kind of gravitates to that place.
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So it's actually really important when you go to a book,
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you basically go, I mean, the, the correct way to do it is make
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people score it. So you basically they, they go,
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you know, and then you go hold up your score.
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And if someone says 2 and someone says 8, you, you know,
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actually where they are. So they can't, they can't kind
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of group think their way into it.
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I don't do that. What I basically do is I say, I
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say, OK, let's talk about what's good about it first.
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There's a kind of pessimist bias, pessimism bias in, in, in,
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in in all this case, it's easy to tilt towards what's wrong
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with something. It's just easier to talk about
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than what's what's right with something.
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So that's what I tend to do. We end up basically kind of
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moving quite quickly to let's say the 30 books that are in
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contention that we have to get down to 10.
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We probably will get them down to 15.
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And then everybody, you know, and then we we just have a
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think. But if you basically say to
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people, what did you like about it, that galvanises everybody to
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looking at the, at the, at the positives.
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And I can tell quite quickly how much they sort of drop from the
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positive down to the negative. And then I kind of know actually
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it's, you know, they're, they're not that key.
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You're watching body language, you're watching, you're
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listening for intonation and inflection and micro glasses.
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And then you're seeing someone and, you know, having run 1000
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focus groups, I'm actually really good at reading people
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being quiet, whether they agree or disagree or whatever.
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So that's what I'm doing. I'm just kind of trying to build
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a picture and what inevitably happens because our long list is
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of 10 is you. We get to kind of 12 or 13 books
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and this kind of happens almost every year.
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It's you really often basically have 8 that are just going to
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make the long list and then you've got 5 for two births.
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And kind of when it gets to the shortlist, you've probably got 3
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or 4 where everyone's, you know, whatever and you've got a berth
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1 berth for five for five books. But you know, it's not going to
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be 9 and 10 because people will struggle whatever.
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So these things kind of begin to kind of shape or fall out and,
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and, and whatever. It is a largely positive
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experience. We've only had one shortlist
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person shout and almost physically abuse the winner
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because they were, I'm not running.
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I'm not going to say anything yet.
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It was, it was, it was, it got it got quite ugly.
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They were friends so. OK, it was light hearted.
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Like it really wasn't light hearted.
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Can you tell us how these presses can submit their their
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work? You have rigorous rules or, or
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criteria that they have to meet. And I think that's also changed
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over the years. Yeah.
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It, it is hard. It is hard to it's, it's, it's
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been, it's a kind of movable feast in the sense that when we
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started, I mean, fits crowd, they were eligible for about 5
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years and then they just grew too big.
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And the point is, is even though actually they at that point,
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they fit our criteria, they were obviously too big.
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And the idea of the prize is we're, you know, we're trying to
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give a small amount of money to people for whom that small
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amount of money is meaningful. So Fitzgrad had outgrown that.
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And you know, and but the continued could continue to be
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shortlisted and long listed the win because, you know, of the
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quality of the book. So because at that point it was
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5 or fewer full time worker, you know, employees, and if you took
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all the freelancers and eccentric and kind of
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amalgamated them and whatever. And so that was all it was at
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that point. So obviously that's not going to
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allow favour in or Bloomsbury, but it but also a loud
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Fitzcarraldo in when they were publishing, you know, Nobel
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laureates and, you know, 15 books a year or whatever.
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So we decided a couple of years ago and I was actually also, I
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realised that Daunt were getting in and they weren't financially
17:22
independent and that you know, and that's that's no good if you
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know, if you've essentially got a financial backer, you can make
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creative decisions with no sense, not such a great sense of
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financial risk. So we had to think so.
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So essentially we basically went, I think it's like 4 or
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fewer full time people, 8 or fewer books a year, financially
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independent and a turnover of less than £100,000 a year.
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But you can have, apart from the financial independence, which
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is, is, is a deal breaker. You can have two of, you can
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have two of those three because some small presses have had, you
18:11
know, they've had a breakout book.
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And so they're still publishing, you know, whatever they're still
18:16
publishing, you know, 345, whatever, they had a breakout
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book. So, you know, kind of quite a
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big turnover, you know, in one or two years as the book breaks
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out, but they're still publishing, you know, stuff that
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is creatively adventurous. And so I asked a few small
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presses, you know, what is their kind of what is their turnover?
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And that seemed to be the right cap.
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But I would say 70% of our presses have turnovers that are
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half that. I wouldn't want someone like
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galley beggar who had, you know, goes 1/2 form thing and ducks
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new report and you know, the Alex Phoebe, you know, they only
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published 3 books a year. There's only two of them and
19:01
whatever I wouldn't want. And I think they, you know, they
19:04
crested that amount a year. There's no way they should not
19:07
be eligible. So that's that's but it's once
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again, it's not perfect, but I think it's work.
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I think it works at the moment and they can only smoke submit
19:19
one work of fiction, but that can be in translation.
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It can be and and it could be, you know, short form fiction, as
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long as it's a collection by by one writer.
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And we're the only prize that does that, which is put sets up
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short fiction, you know, short form fiction up against, you
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know, long form fictions sets up translation against, you know,
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native language stuff. So the first winner, Counter
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Narratives by John Keane, was ineligible for any other prize
19:48
in this country. You know, short form fiction and
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he was AUS resident. So there's the Republican
19:54
conscious night in the US. Do you think that there there's
19:58
been such a gap in the market for this kind of thing that like
20:01
other places are going well? You know, this is an excellent
20:04
idea because it is an excellent idea.
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Yeah, the, the, the prize in, in the US, she just got in contact
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and a bit like me. So I had a, you know, I
20:15
certainly don't have any disposable income now, but I had
20:18
a bit of disposable income back 10 years ago.
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So she had a bit of disposable income.
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She runs a bookstore in, I think it's Houston, love small
20:27
presses, has lots of energy and realise and actually what she
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does, which I think is really great is because she runs this
20:36
small independent bookshop. She knows lots of small
20:39
independent booksellers around the US So she gets them to be
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judges. The size of a small press in the
20:45
US is like 4 times the size of a small press in the UK.
20:48
So it's, it's sort of different in scale, but but relative.
20:52
Yeah. I mean, in a, in a, you know, I,
20:54
I, I sort of wonder whether it is really the only UK and the US
20:59
that might. And she includes Canada as well.
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So I don't really know the, you know, Australasian version, you
21:07
know, what that landscape is. Maybe they just don't have
21:09
enough small presses, you know, the tiny populations in
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comparison. And God knows we don't have
21:15
enough readers here and we have, you know, massive populations in
21:18
comparisons there. So I mean, I think more than
21:21
more than anything is we need constant small press advocacy.
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I think publishing essentially, you know, grew out of a whole
21:32
load of basically upper middle class or aristocrats in this
21:36
country who basically wanted to publish their own work.
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And publishing model has grown out of there.
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But it's basically grown into a sort of massive, you know,
21:48
capitalist kind of oligarchy, Whereas actually it's roots and
21:52
it's point is in small presses. But how to get small presses on
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the front tables at, at, you know, at big book stops is is a
22:05
is a problem, is a problem because the, you know, the, the
22:07
big 5 have so much power. The prize, you know, makes, you
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know, a little bit of a noise and it sells a few books and it
22:16
gives a bit of money out and whatever.
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But actually, I think now, and this is something I'm the
22:20
foundation is going to try and do over the next year is see
22:25
whether we can, we can slightly disrupt the publishing economy.
22:32
We can't disrupt it with the main players losing because
22:36
they'll just say fuck off, take your disruption somewhere else.
22:41
What if you can disrupt something and they win, but we
22:46
also win as well? And I have this idea which I'm
22:49
trying to formulate, but I think it's possible.
22:52
It just means that some people who don't particularly want to
22:57
pay any attention, just need to pay attention for a while and
23:01
then they might kind of go, you know what, we're not going to
23:03
lose our pensions by doing this. That's what what needs to be
23:07
done. And we have to be slightly
23:09
vigilant and, and you know, as the economy contracts as it's
23:11
doing, we have to kind of be more vigilant.
23:13
We have to be a bit tougher, kind of expands.
23:16
I, you know, I noticed small presses did really well around
23:20
COVID and slightly after COVID and whatever, because they felt
23:24
a bit more, there's a bit more money when people want to buy
23:26
books or whatever. So when when people are are
23:29
feeling good and wanting to buy books or whatever small presses,
23:32
you know, do slightly better at the moment the economy shrinks
23:35
or or some saying they can fall off the edges quite quickly.
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So just to build a slightly more sustainable model where it's
23:43
harder for us to fall off the edges.
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I think it's doable, but it does need writers need to rethink
23:49
what a writing life is like. You know, there aren't any
23:52
midlist writers who just get a living wage for writing books.
23:56
Publishers need to to read with the Main St.
23:58
Publishers need to rethink, you know, why are you giving huge
24:01
advances often to books that you don't do it?
24:03
You don't do any marketing. Like it's just kind of, you
24:06
know, throw it off a Cliff and see if it flies.
24:08
Trade, you know, is the real estate out there that you can
24:12
give to small presses perhaps. And also, I think, as I said,
24:16
you know, you can go to a front table in Waterston and have read
24:19
every book on it because they're the books that have been selling
24:23
for the last 30 years. You go front, take still, you
24:26
know, white teeth, you know, in the Shiguru, you know, blah,
24:30
blah, blah. It's just so maybe we need some,
24:33
you know, a little bit more flexibility in that real estate.
24:35
And then the, you know, the, the, the difficult one, because
24:38
of accessibility, readers are going to have to start paying
24:41
1499 for a, for a paperback from a small press because paper
24:47
costs have been going up every year in advance of what we're
24:50
charging. And if you look at cinema
24:52
tickets, you look at streaming services and et cetera, et
24:55
cetera, we have to, you know, we have to do that.
24:57
But obviously, you know, charging more means that they're
25:00
less accessible for people on lower incomes.
25:02
But I also think there are, there are ways that small
25:04
presses, in fact, can reach out on their own websites.
25:08
Like, you know, I haven't done this yet, but I plan to do it.
25:11
On my list of things to do is, is if you're on Universal
25:14
Credit, you can buy our books at half price if you buy them
25:17
direct from our website. We still probably make as much
25:21
money on that book selling at half price as we get if we sold
25:26
it in Waterstones at full price. We've done 2 prices so far.
25:30
And I think that we were feeling a bit like with some of them, I
25:33
was like, there's no risk has been taken.
25:36
And that's, that's genuinely, I think how, how a lot of us were
25:39
feeling at the end of last year. And then we were kind of talking
25:42
about it last year. We'll do this next year.
25:44
And I'm so glad that we have because I think it's, it has
25:46
kind of got us back into like, oh, we can really talk about
25:49
these things. I'm really enjoying them.
25:51
And I feel like it's, it's so exciting that we're able to like
25:54
we're going to be able to talk about these books that are are
25:56
taking risks. The intellectual Booker, I think
25:58
is obviously just doing a good thing in bringing translated
26:02
fiction to the UK, which, you know, has probably been we we
26:07
probably read less, well, maybe not now, but we used to
26:09
certainly read less translated fiction than than than than, you
26:13
know, our once European partners.
26:15
Anyway, I think the Booker doesn't really know I I don't
26:19
think it doesn't really know who it is.
26:22
It hasn't for some time. It's become, you know, celebrity
26:25
judges and you know the the kind of I don't know it it wants, you
26:30
know, it wants it wants headlines.
26:32
And my last last novel with Dodo ING was submit for the Booker.
26:37
And I knew I I became friendly with one of the judges on that
26:41
year. You know, they had 30 in the
26:44
long list and he's he's basically saying yours was like
26:46
14 whether he was telling the truth or not.
26:49
But let's say he was telling the truth.
26:51
That year they had a graphic artist on the judging and they
26:57
had a thriller writer. And that meant that on the long
27:00
list, you had to have a graphic novel, which they've never had
27:02
before and they've never had since.
27:04
And then you had to have a kind of stock thriller because the
27:07
judges were basically going, well, I want something that I do
27:10
or, or whatever. So I feel kind of like, well, if
27:13
if they just had some, you know, one of the judges, you know,
27:17
wrote to me and said, you know, I would have, you know, this
27:20
would have been my winner. So I was, I think I was close.
27:22
I was like, you know, it was there or thereabouts.
27:25
But the idea that you have it has to kind of be representative
27:28
in that way. And then you have to judge
27:30
whatever. It's kind of like it just
27:33
doesn't feel as though, you know, it's, it's lost it's way.
27:36
And it is the most influential military prize in the world in
27:41
terms of spanos. You know, nothing in America
27:43
comes close to, you know, you know, and, and, and milkman won
27:47
the year that I was, you know, that I was, I was there or there
27:49
about and that, you know, that's a that's a difficult, difficult
27:53
read. And it's, you know, it's, but
27:57
also I think, you know, Sally Rooney was on the long list.
28:01
And I'm like, you know, I think she, I think she's an incredibly
28:05
elegant and gifted writer. But it was YA.
28:11
I mean, I don't mean YA as in the genre, but it was just YA.
28:14
It was for young adults. Yeah.
28:17
We're very thankful to to you for establishing this award
28:21
because it it has helped us discover more and we're excited
28:28
to continue reading and see see who won wins.
28:31
And I'm sure in the future we will probably be covering more
28:35
books as well that that are long listed and shortlisted.
28:38
So thank you very much for even giving your time to today.
28:42
We really appreciate this we. Really enjoyed the chat, great.
28:45
That was director Neil Griffiths of the Queen Mary Small Press
28:50
Prize. I also was speaking with
28:52
Susannah Crossman, who is one of the judges for the prize this
28:56
year. So I started by asking Susannah
28:59
how she got involved. I'm a fiction and non fiction
29:04
writer. I recently I've worked with the
29:07
big 5 so I published A memoir with Penguin and I've also
29:12
published books with small presses.
29:13
My last novel came out with Blue Moose Books, The Orange
29:17
Notebooks, and I got involved with the prize.
29:22
Neil contacted me to see if I'd be interested, and I was
29:26
absolutely thrilled. And I've judged the prize this
29:30
year alongside Stu Hennigan, the writer, and Marina Benjamin.
29:36
So there have been three of us. We've been reading.
29:38
We've read about 50 books since we started in August last year.
29:44
How many books do you usually read in that span of time?
29:48
Was that a lot for you or was it a bit of a struggle?
29:51
Or is it kind of that's what you do anyway.
29:55
I I'm a very fast reader. I taught myself to read when I
30:00
was about 3 1/2 before I went to school.
30:03
And so I'm very lucky in that I can read a book kind of in a
30:09
night, I can do a first reading and then I'll very, very often,
30:14
which is what I did for the prize reread.
30:16
So there's lots of reading and then rereading and then
30:20
rereading again. Whenever you read all of these
30:23
books the first time, did you kind of know that at least some
30:28
of these books would end up in the shortlist?
30:31
I think what's really interesting, I always find
30:33
because I read and then reread, I am a great believer in the
30:37
litmus of the book, the litmus test of the book that stays with
30:40
you. So it's a book where something
30:43
about that book has kind of remained because I'm such a big
30:48
reader and I also do journalism. I publish a lot with Aeon.
30:51
So I'm I'm kind of constantly reading and those books that you
30:55
can see, they're kind of staying there in the psyche.
30:58
Their characters keep coming back to you.
31:00
They keep haunting you. I think some very obviously
31:04
because of the quality. For example, that that I would
31:07
say there was a very clear sense for all three of us as we were
31:11
reading about long lists. I think the hardest thing is
31:14
then a short list and a winner. The long list we were actually
31:19
as 3 judges very much in agreement with quite quickly.
31:23
But the harder one is the shortlist because then it's
31:26
really, and also because it is a prize recognising presses as
31:30
well. So it's also looking at what the
31:33
press is doing, the innovative nature of the press at that
31:37
time. So it's a very kind of like
31:40
there's a sort of, you know, there's a global thing happening
31:42
with this prize. But yeah, so I think the some
31:47
books, it was very clear and then other books kind of rose to
31:50
the surface. Did they rise because of the
31:53
second reading? Did they rise because you
31:55
discussed them with the other judges?
31:58
What kind of give them the boost?
32:02
I'd say both. Sometimes in conversation with
32:04
the judges where we would suddenly be, one of them would
32:08
talk about a certain book and then I'd go back and look at
32:12
that book again. Or a book that really just was
32:16
haunting me at night. And I kept thinking, Oh my God,
32:19
that book. Why have I not gone back that
32:21
book and then I'd look at it again and the characters, the
32:26
quality of the writing and the vibrancy of the story.
32:31
I mean when you look at the different ones we've got, even
32:33
on the long list, you know, they are very different.
32:37
I mean, a book like Tooth Full of Saint Dunstan or on the
32:41
Greenwich line, you know, 1 is about a sort of, you know, time
32:45
travelling dentist and the other one is about an Egyptian in
32:51
London kind of doing this really extraordinary analysis of the
32:54
kind of bureaucracy of social administration or Daryl, which
32:57
is about cuckolding. I mean, those are such all, all
33:01
figures crossing the field towards the group.
33:03
I mean, these are such different books.
33:05
They really, really are. So I guess it's yeah, they're
33:09
sort of power really how they kind of, I, I really do believe
33:13
in what remains with you. I think we have so much
33:15
information today, you know, and we're through social media,
33:19
through reading and and that thing of a book that remains for
33:23
you, I think is a very strong, yeah, it's, it's a very strong
33:26
litmus test. Working with the other judges,
33:29
do you find that an easy process or is it tough?
33:33
Like if you had your own personal favorites and they
33:37
didn't necessarily see, I know that you said that you all kind
33:40
of were in agreement for the long list, but did you find
33:42
yourself fighting for what what you wanted?
33:46
Is it, is it tough to kind of share the responsibility knowing
33:50
that what you want might It's not all down to you as one
33:56
person? It's difficult, isn't it?
33:58
Because art by its very nature is subjective.
34:02
And when you read a book, I always think it's very
34:04
interesting. I don't know if you've
34:06
experienced that, but there's, I know, for example, Margaret
34:09
Jehas. I always wanted to like Margaret
34:11
Jehas when I was young. I was like, yeah, I really, I
34:13
love Margaret Jehas and I open her books and just go, well,
34:16
don't understand that. And it's only maybe, you know,
34:20
10 years ago that I started to read Your house.
34:22
I live in France, so I read her in French and just totally
34:27
devoured every single thing she'd written because it was a
34:29
moment in my life where it made sense to me.
34:32
So I think that is that very subjective thing about reading
34:36
when you read a book, whether it resonates with you or not.
34:40
So yeah, I think there's books and, and Neil's is, is a really
34:44
interesting, the way he runs the prize because he said to us, you
34:46
know, identify the books you want to fight for.
34:49
So there are books that I know we've all got books on that
34:53
shortlist that we fought for. We're going to be fighting
34:57
because you've got to decide who's going to win.
35:01
And I know that the, you know, that point is quite difficult.
35:06
So yeah, I think there's lots of sort of listening and
35:11
discussion. But we've got on incredibly well
35:16
with Marina and Stu as 3 jump judges.
35:19
So it's been quite a kind of the demographic, the democratic,
35:23
sorry, and really stimulating process actually going through
35:27
and seeing why a book might resonate for another person and
35:32
kind of like trying to understand that as well, which I
35:34
always think is really interesting.
35:36
But there are books, but by their very nature, you just
35:40
don't get on with, aren't there? I mean, I think we all have
35:43
certain styles of writing, just like we'll have forms of visual
35:46
art or music that we'll listen to and something in them will
35:49
kind of make you go, oh, you know, But yeah, no, it's been a
35:53
brilliant, very collaborative process, actually.
35:56
That's great. It, it reminds me of how our
36:00
podcast is because there's four of us and we do focus on
36:05
literary awards. One of us might show up with a
36:09
completely different opinion or, or connect with a particular
36:14
book in a different way. And through our conversation,
36:19
they can help you understand it different or, or draw those
36:23
connections that, that you might have overlooked or maybe you
36:27
just weren't feeling that kind of book at the time that, that
36:29
you were reading it. And so I, I, I really, I
36:33
understand where you're coming from that working
36:36
collaboratively can benefit you in, in these kinds of things
36:42
because it is for small presses. How did that impact your
36:48
choices? You know, taking, you know, into
36:51
into consideration the sort of, you know, extraordinary economic
36:56
pressure that small presses are under.
36:59
So obviously they don't have the same resources as as Penguin or
37:05
other other big publishing houses.
37:07
I think that's really sort of vital to put aside certain
37:12
aspects. And I think it's so interesting
37:15
when you look just even historically actually at the
37:18
role of small presses and how, you know, like Virginia Woolf
37:23
and Leonard Woolf with Hogarth Press, the sort of stuff they
37:26
were doing. And William Morris, I mean, he
37:28
was one of the first more press people and kind of this handmade
37:31
stuff, you know? And that therefore there'll be
37:34
something about these books which will be different and
37:40
it'll be rougher. And yet that's how the
37:42
avant-garde voice historically has kind of come into the
37:47
literary world and the artwork world in general, particularly
37:50
at the turn of the last century. It was incredibly important.
37:53
And I think for all of us, that's something we were really
37:57
open minded about. And then but then also looking,
38:01
I mean, if you look to be honest at the quality, a lot of the
38:04
production of the books, they are very well and very
38:07
beautifully produced. Like Hey Jar Press for example,
38:11
which does all its books in either blue or yellow.
38:14
I mean they're beautifully produced.
38:16
The same with Tangerine Press. I mean they hand make all their
38:20
books. So there is actually weirdly,
38:23
there's a kind of aesthetic, I'd say experimental side to a lot
38:29
of the visual aspects of the books, not for all of the
38:32
presses, but for some of them, which is almost more
38:36
experimental than some of the mainstream presses.
38:39
And then say how they might use typography or we don't.
38:44
We haven't got illustration in any of the ones that that were
38:47
on the long list. But I know some of the other
38:49
books that I read were doing really interesting things with
38:53
page layout and space more in line with sort of like concrete
38:56
poetry. So actually my personal feeling
39:01
as as I was going through wasn't actually that that it was of a
39:04
lesser quality, but actually more that it was actually quite
39:08
experimental and that there was maybe more space for that type
39:11
of sort of divergent cultural activity.
39:17
That's another thing that we've kind of discussed is how these
39:21
books are experimental in in their own unique ways.
39:27
And it's the the long list has given us so many of these
39:33
presses now that that we can look to and and that we had no
39:37
idea about before. It's so shocking.
39:39
I was, I was looking actually this morning, I was looking at
39:43
these statistics about, and I think a lot of it is to do with
39:47
the fixed book price law, which we have in EU, in which we don't
39:53
have, sorry, in the UK, but I, I live in France.
39:55
I've also published books in France.
39:57
And it's really interesting because in France, so these are
40:00
figures from about a decade ago, but in France, the 10 top
40:05
sellers made-up 2% of the whole amount of books being bought.
40:09
Whereas in the UK it's something like sort of 15 to 20%.
40:15
So if you look at, so basically what it means is in France you
40:18
can't change the price of a book, whereas in the UK you can
40:21
sell it for, you know, 3 for the price of 1 or whatever or two
40:25
for the price of three, you know, all that type of thing.
40:29
And it's what that actually does a fixed book price.
40:33
And about 20 countries in the world have it.
40:35
Is it means that we've all got access everywhere because
40:39
there's loads of small book shops and they're supporting
40:41
independent publishing. That I completely agree with
40:44
you, Aaron, is that all of these presses, if you don't have
40:48
access to a local bookshop, if your library's not buying them,
40:52
I mean, I'm a huge library goer and it means that you don't have
40:57
access. So you won't be reading.
41:00
And you know, we've got on on the long list.
41:02
We've got a Japanese book, we've got a book, an Egyptian book,
41:09
We've got a, I'm just trying to look at the other one, the one
41:12
from Cuba, a French book. So there's, you know, like 2
41:18
what are about over 1/3 is translated fiction and that
41:23
you're not it's it you have less access to it, don't you?
41:27
And I think, you know, that's why the prize is, you know, it's
41:30
creating cultural divergent. It's allowing us not to be just
41:35
kind of hooked on, you know, what Waterstones has on the
41:39
table or you know what's being made into a Netflix series.
41:44
From the nominated books that that you had read, the the 50 or
41:49
so are from the long list. Is there any book that stood out
41:56
to you? So excluding everything from the
41:58
shortlist, just everything that that hasn't necessarily made it
42:02
this far. Oh.
42:03
God, there's loads. Hold on.
42:06
I'm going to. I've got them all in a pile next
42:08
to me. Hold on.
42:10
OK, so I'm just going to give you a few that I've absolutely
42:12
loved. Oh, this I've really loved.
42:15
OK, so this is called The Malavogliers, and it's a
42:21
translation. It's a, it's a pretty obscure
42:24
one. It's a late 19th century
42:26
translation of a kind of saga about a Sicilian family.
42:31
And it's really extraordinary. It's almost like it's published
42:34
by Vagabond Voices and it's almost like an ethnological or
42:40
anthropological book all about life in Sicily with the rituals
42:45
and the family and this doomed family, this family who are
42:48
doomed to failure. Everything goes wrong.
42:51
Their boat sinks. You know, the, they lose all
42:55
their money. You know, the, the, the roof
42:58
falls off their house. I absolutely love for this one.
43:03
I loved the book Capitalist Must Survive, which is set in Korea
43:11
and it's all about women and the history of women in Korea.
43:15
Absolutely loved that. I mean, there's oh, the Duke,
43:20
that's that was one of absolutely loved that that's on
43:23
the long list for the international Booker.
43:27
Absolutely fascinating one that one the pinjar.
43:30
I mean, look at me, I'm just going to choose them all.
43:34
Pinjar Fascinating by Sam Reed if you're interested in English
43:38
kind of folklore, creepy kind of ghost landscape anthropology.
43:45
Really, really interesting. Very well written.
43:48
So yeah, I mean, I'll just go through and then they'll be.
43:53
Well, it it sounds like each kind of spoke to you in its own
43:57
way. And and just because they didn't
44:00
make it to the long list doesn't mean that they weren't worthy or
44:04
that they weren't good books. They they still provided some
44:08
kind of interest to you. Do you feel like the books that
44:12
kind of tell a larger experience and give you a peek into one
44:21
persons point of view, but that is telling a larger story at the
44:25
same time? Did you find that those books
44:28
maybe were the ones that spoke to you as a judge?
44:33
Or is it just if it's telling a good story, that's all that you
44:37
kind of need to enjoy it? All great art in itself can be
44:43
highly specific and individual, but if we look at the ones that
44:50
are on the shortlist, so we've got Ghost Driver by Nell
44:54
Osborne, figures crossing the field towards the group by
44:56
Rebecca Grasden, the first Jasmines by Samer Begum.
45:00
I'm just reading them out. They're ruled by Jackie Hess and
45:03
then Spit by David Brennan. They've all got that capacity of
45:08
a very sort of singular story. So spit about, you know, this
45:11
spirit going through this contemporary Irish village.
45:14
Ghost Driver, which kind of manages to have a kind of very
45:18
contemporary story, but in a kind of ghostly or, you know,
45:22
with this extraordinary dysmorphobia which is happening
45:26
in those pages and they're kind of drawing out.
45:29
So, so, so if we take Ghost Driver, it's very, very
45:32
contemporary. And then it's got this sense of
45:34
total alienation that we can all feel in contemporary situations.
45:39
So they're telling a specific story, which is what I think
45:43
great art does, is it tells a specific story, but then it
45:47
opens up to something really, really universal, whether
45:50
through the language and the reading experience, say the
45:54
figures crossing the field. I'd say it's it's a very
45:56
linguistic, it's quite a unique book because of the experience
46:01
of reading it actually what the language does as you read the
46:07
first Jasmines, again, an extraordinary book because it's
46:12
so brutal. The story is so absolutely
46:17
brutal and so beautifully written.
46:19
And hey, John Press say that books can be beautiful and
46:22
revolutionary. And I think that is so telling
46:25
around that book. Yeah.
46:27
And Daryl, I mean, we, we end up relating to the Park Holden
46:33
husband and Daryl, like, you know, having pinky sex and, you
46:38
know, taking drugs and they're like, yeah.
46:40
OK. Yeah, yeah.
46:43
So quite, quite the range that I I think that that is another
46:47
thing that that every book that that has muted to the shortlist
46:51
is its own complete different thing.
46:54
And and there's something there for everyone.
46:57
I think that's the, the best thing about this prize is that
47:01
it does draw attention to all of these authors, to these
47:06
translators, to, to these small presses and, and there are
47:11
stories out there that anyone can enjoy.
47:14
You just kind of have to have it presented to you so you know
47:17
what what the options are. 100% there's, I've got a quote
47:21
actually on my wall and it's Taju Cole.
47:25
And it says being avant-garde isn't about being unreadable.
47:29
And I think that I would say that about all of these books,
47:33
it's not because they're avant-garde.
47:35
It's not, you know, there's this idea, I think sometimes around
47:39
literary work that sometimes somehow, you know, it's
47:42
something you're not going to be able to read or you're going to
47:44
feel alienated or you have to, you know, study the certain form
47:48
of, of literature at university, etcetera.
47:51
And I think it's exactly what you're saying.
47:53
You know, all of these books in different ways are incredibly,
47:57
you know, they're brilliant stories, really well written,
48:00
really innovative. And it's more that small presses
48:04
today are really in this position of kind of broadening
48:08
the literary landscape over through the stories they're
48:10
telling, the way those books are being written because they're
48:14
translated books. And, you know, just their
48:18
massive, you know, just everyone who's listening, you know, look
48:22
at the go and get there. They're brilliant.
48:24
All these presses, you know, go and look at their websites,
48:28
order their books, you know, they're a vital part of our
48:31
landscape. And also they're really fighting
48:34
to keep, keep going because of paper cars, because of how
48:38
difficult it is in today's sort of landscape.
48:41
I mean, even just through Brexit, I know living abroad,
48:44
how complicated it is for me to support any independent presser,
48:48
you know, because I literally have to pay for the book twice
48:51
if I buy it. So, you know, support them
48:55
because, you know, there was allowing you to have this for
49:00
all of us these incredible, you know, divergent literary
49:04
experiences. Well, thank you very much for
49:08
speaking with me and and giving me your time.
49:12
It's been really insightful in into the entire process and what
49:17
you have been thinking about as, as you've you've chosen the the
49:22
shortlist and yeah, of course. Supporting the prize and
49:26
covering it because it's so important, you know, everyone go
49:30
out and buy these books. A big thank you to Neil and
49:34
Susanna for speaking to us. I think all the answers that we
49:38
received there were really insightful and we're really
49:41
looking forward to finding out what book wins and which
49:45
publisher is is awarded the prize later today.
49:50
Who do you hope wins aren't? I've only completed one of the
49:52
books so far so I feel like it's unfair.
49:54
How? How about you?
49:56
Actually, I'm I of the three that I have read and I've read
50:00
bits of the other two. I just haven't completed them
50:02
yet. I'm tempted to go with I kind of
50:05
want a ghost driver. I was re listening to our
50:07
episode about it and I was like, this is a really funny book and
50:10
it's really a good book. I feel like I was maybe a bit
50:11
harsh on the market. Now I'm like, I like this and I
50:14
think there's there's more to it.
50:15
I think I'd love a second read of it.
50:17
Well, we will have a reaction episode to the winner whenever
50:21
that is announced. Hopefully it's one of the books
50:24
that we have our hands on already.
50:26
Read along and share your thoughts on Instagram at Bookies
50:29
favorite book club. You can also e-mail us at
50:31
bookiesfavoritebookclub@gmail.com and that is favorite with AU We.
50:37
Also have a couple of bonus special episodes coming similar
50:42
to this. We have a couple of interview
50:45
episodes coming with the team that brought you Eden Shore.
50:50
We had a breakdown of that chapter by chapter and earlier
50:55
this year and last year. And so if you want to check that
50:59
out in preparation for our interviews, please do that.
51:05
And we might be moving swiftly onto another shortlist.
51:09
Is that right, Lucy? I sure hope so Aaron.
51:12
I think everyone will be extremely excited to hear that
51:15
we may be doing the Inter. Well, I assume we will be at
51:18
this point. Does the official launch reveal
51:21
that we will be doing the the International Booker shortlist?
51:28
I've read 7 so far of the the list and I'm very excited to
51:34
hear what you guys think of them of the ones that I hope make it
51:37
maybe to the shortlist. So stay tuned for next week when
51:42
we will be discussing and establishing a reading schedule
51:46
for the six books that make it to that shortlist and read along
51:51
with us. Subscribe on whatever podcast
51:53
platform you're listening on so you don't miss the next
51:55
episodes. You can find me at Aaron Rice
51:58
Media on Instagram. You can find me at Books 2026.
52:05
That's Books with AZ Share this episode with a book lover you
52:09
think will enjoy this book. Rate the podcast 5 stars.
52:13
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52:18
Bookies out. Goodbye.