Latest / Giving Pain Purpose with Lyndsay Soprano / Advocating for Home Birth

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Advocating for Home Birth · Giving Pain Purpose with Lyndsay Soprano

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This is Your Pain Game podcast where we talk about the game of living in
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and with chronic pain and trauma, get into the heart of how to heal.
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I am your host, Lindsay Soprano. On the show, I plan
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on discussing with doctors, chronic pain patients, holistic practitioners, loved ones,
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and anybody that is interested in having their voice heard in the chronic pain and
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trauma world that we live in. So on this show, we definitely talk
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a lot about Western medicine and how I feel about it. Right in our
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standard of care, there's no standard. I don't feel like there is in
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my opinion, because it's super low. If it is, especially here in
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the States. I can only speak to the United States here and more specifically
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California. But taking my health into my own hands, with my DRPs and
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lime disease and EBV and you just name it, I've got it all right.
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It's been nothing short of a tremendous obstacle course for me. You know,
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doctor after doctor after doctor, nobody talking to each other, nobody,
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nobody really owning my care. And so I was like, well, wait
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a second, I shouldn't hold all of these people responsible for my care.
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I need to do it. And so when I decided to take that step
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and really own it and hold everybody accountable, things started to shift, right.
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And I think that a lot of our healthcare system, however it is
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run our in the States, it's almost like they feel like we're fucking stupid,
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you know, like we're onto you guys, okay, And we're starting
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to get more and more and more aware of what's actually going on in conventional
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medicine. And you guys know, there's nothing conventional about me. I require
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complete unconventional care, right, and I think all of us really do.
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Because none of us are the same person. We can't treat me like I'm
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going to treat my guest right now, right. We can't do that because
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we're all so very, very different. And I require empowerment. I don't
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know about you, guys, but empowerment feels pretty damn good. And I'm
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going to quote my guest today. I don't love that the institutions and individuals
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who run the world would like to believe that we are powerless when it comes
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to our health and wellness. Right, It's time for us to take our
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power back. I'm exhausted from feeling like I cannot choose my own healthcare regiment
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right, my body, my choice. I know we hear that all of
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the time, especially when it comes to abortion and so on and so forth.
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Cliche or not, it's true. So advocating for myself in the world
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of chronic pain and trauma is a full time job. But we're not alone
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in it. As soon as you accept that you're not alone in it,
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and you've got people like me and my guests here on your side, you're
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a winner. And wait until you get to know this guy, because he
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is a whot. We already had about thirty minutes before the episode, cracking
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out, cracking up, cracking up, So let's talk about it, all
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right, So, without further ado, I'd like to introduce you to my
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guest today, doctor Nathan Riley. What is going on over there? You
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know what's going on. I told you about my motorcycle and my not motorcycle,
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thank god, my mountain biking accident. I got a big swollen cheek.
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I don't know if we if you end up using video, but damn,
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my face hurts. I feel like I'm just doing my jam. I'm
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just living life here. I'm enjoying my time here already with you, so
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oh my gosh. Well, let I know, we could seriously do like
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a three four hour shows just together. Well. Doctor Riley is a board
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certified obgin and Fellow of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. He's going
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to talk to us a little bit today about stepping away from this conventional medicine
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that we were talking about, but specifically in the maternity care model, and
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how he made his choice to move into his truth to uphold the traditional practice
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of midwifery. I mean, he's all about rattling the cage right. He
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supports midwives as a collaborative physician for midwives of all varieties and is an advocate
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for home birth, which is amazing. He also requires empowerment right, and
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he leads from a place of that spot to empower women to have babies on
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their own terms, using nature as their guide. So I'm rolling out the
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red carpet for you, babe, I boof, I know it's my lovely
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thank you, thank you, and you're welcome. Well, I'd like to
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start talking about when you got fed up with conventional medicine and why, and
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then let's take it from there, Oh, lindsay, you know I've gone
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through I've done quite a bit of healing around this topic. You know.
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You have to imagine you invest about a half a million dollars in your education
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and then you give up your twenties some of your thirties, and then you
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hope that you emerge on the other side like being so st about what you
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do. And unfortunately I wasn't that guy. I was actually really really discouraged
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by what I ended up find, you know, the specialty that I found
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myself in, and I actually did more training like a real you know,
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masochist. I went to hospice in Pallative Care Fellowship at UCSD down in San
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Diego, and I did started my healing journey there. And when I'm saying
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healing, guys, I'm not meaning like my face that's beat up from the
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mountain biking accident. I mean like like a real blow to my to my
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like like though, who am I What am I doing here? Question?
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You know, Like I thought that I was gonna be doing good work and
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then you realize, oh, I could make good money, but I'm going
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to just be making money for this kind of profit driven medical system that doesn't
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really seem to give a damn about anybody, including me. In fact,
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during COVID I got fired, I was doing hospice work. I gave up
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the hospital position as an obqun I went into hospice work, and I was
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loving it. It was just like so just my life was just so full,
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and I loved getting as much time as I wanted with these these clients
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and their families who were just going through the mortality conversation. And I took
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my mask off caring for this old guy who was dying of heart failure.
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And I got fired the next day. And it was like I'm not even
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irreplaceable, like there is nothing special about me. I invested and sacrificed all
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of this time and money decades decades to this, and they could just fire
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me and replace me just like that. And so it was kind of the
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universal nudge that I needed. I don't think I would have had the courage
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to step away on my own, but it gave me that sort of I
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like was shoved out the you know, the cabin door, you know,
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and whenever you start having second thoughts about skydiving, and they're just like you're
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going right, Like I kind of needed that, otherwise I think I will
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chicken out. But since having done that, my life has been dramatically different,
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and I can actually show up for people now in the way that I
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would like to be treated if I ever go back to the hospital again.
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Yeah, exactly. So you went from doing in the hospital setting, you
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went from conventional, and you moved into this beautiful space that you've created for
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yourself, your family, your children, and obviously all of the people that
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you help support from a midwivary perspective and all of that. But I want
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to talk a little bit about what you're doing now, but I also want
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you to explain to us the difference between a midwife and a doula. I
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think that it would be good for our audience to understand the difference between those
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as we move forward. Right, so, let's describe what a birth in
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the hospital generally looks like. Whether you have a certified Nurse midwife, which
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is an RN who goes for additional training becomes a certified nurse midwife, you've
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got that, or you've got an UBI. Juan, that's really the two
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options for having a baby in the hospital, and a hospital is a great
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place for the emergency. It's like if you've got sepsis, if you lose
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a leg. I mean, hell, there's a lot of reasons to go
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to the hospital. Yeah, tidfit. So, like you know the things
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that we think about, those really really catastrophic things. Great, we have
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hospitals when you think about how birth. So the way that a hospital is
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able to do that is they've got all these resources, all these medications,
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all these staff. They have to be very efficient and they have to be
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very effective. But your goal, if you split your head open, is
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to not die and for that to get sutured up or repaired in some way.
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Right, the goal with birth is you don't want the mom or the
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baby to die, and so at all costs, we're going to do what
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is required for that mom and baby to stay alive, even if it means
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that mom has a tremendous burden of pain or distrust in the system, or
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she's got unresolved trauma in her body from being strapped crucifixion style down to an
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operating room table in order to have her guts operated on. Right, Yeah,
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it doesn't matter what the experiences, forget the journey. We just want
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that outcome and if we can do that outcome with great efficiency, meaning we're
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both effective and efficient, we can say that we did a good job.
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That's how a trauma operating room works. Thank goodness we have that. But
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is that really required for birth on the flip side in the home or let's
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say out of hospital experience, which is less than it's about one percent of
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burst maybe in the United States right now, only one percent. Maybe I'm
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surprised at that. Actually it's very, very very low. Out of the
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hospital, you can do a burst center. You can have a baby at
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home with your midwife, you can have it in a hotel, you can
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have it out in the woods with the coyotes. It doesn't really matter.
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It's out of hospital. The hair team you put together, they are not
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as focused on efficiency and efficacy. They're actually focused on you and everything surrounds
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you. So this is really the hospice care model of caring for people with
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chronic illness, where it's like, if we can't save the day with the
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heroics of pharmaceuticals and surgery, then at least let's ask what's important to you,
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and let's put our resources in an arrangement that serves you based on your
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goals. That is not what happens in maternity here in the hospital. It
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does happen in home birth, and they're still they're actually probably more effective at
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achieving that healthy amounhealthy baby without the additional burdens of all the traumas that arise
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when you're not being consented well, you're not being spoken to, well,
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you're just sort of a cog in this big giant system that is focused on
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efficiency, productivity, and profits over everything else. That is not the home
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birth experience. So in the home birth setting, usually it's a midwife.
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I attend homebirth, so I'm one of those rare doctors who goes into the
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home and sits there and waits until a baby comes. And if I need
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to bring in all of those super skills that I developed over the years,
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I will. But generally you just sit there and wait and a baby comes
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out and you say congratulations and you go home. Very very different experience if
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you were to need some if you were craving, and I recommend everybody seek
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this out, some additional advocacy and actual labor support. A doula is the
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person who's there. They're an unbiased, no skin in the game, third
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party bystander that you can yell at, that you can hold hands with,
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you can hug and cry with, you can do all of that, But
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they're not going to be the ones intervening or helping you decide if you need
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to go to the hospital, the emotional support side of it, everything else.
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Yeah, they're not helping their professionals, so they don't you know,
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they might advocate, they might give you some information, but they're not your
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midwife, they're not your doctor. That duo of a midwife and a doula
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is absolutely the best option for I'd say upwards of eighty five ninety percent of
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women in the United States. Wow, but people are still kind of confused
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about the difference. So midwise, that's why I asked, because, yeah,
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because I asked the same thing, because I I've not gone through I
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got pregnant one time and I lost the baby and it was many, many
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years ago. But so I've never gone through the birthing process. I've never
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gone through pregnancy. I've not ever gone through those things. So I can't
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speak to what that feels like. But I know how I would want it
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to be. And I think when you know, all of us little girls
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like, Oh, this is what my wedding's going to be like, this
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is what's going to be having to be well, he gets completely jaded and
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booted out from what we thought it was going to be like, right,
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But I do know that I would have gone somewhere in more of the range
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of what you're talking about, doing a home birth, doing something, but
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having someone like you on the team of care because you're an actual MD and
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it's not I mean, do you do work in the WOO world, which
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I love about you, and I love the WOOO world as a whole,
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but I like that that gives such like an awesome feeling of security and safety
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because it's a fearful time when you're a woman and you're like, I don't
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know. I mean, I've had girlfriends that have lost their babies, and
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so that's scary stuff. And when you're walking in in that not knowing how
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your body may or may not fail, you feeling feeling scared, especially if
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you're alone, you know, single moms and all of that. So I
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love that that blend, that that partnership between you and the dula and the
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midwife. I think it's just I mean, it's beautiful, and you talk
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about the transition and the spiritual transformation and honoring the sacred practice of us populating
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the damn planet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know,
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if we're going to just have the goal of making more people and those people
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are breathing in their hearts beating after the process, then we should have no
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issues with maternity care. But we have plenty of issues. I've had so
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many women who come to me and they're like, Doc, I will not
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go back to the hospital. And I could spend my time then arguing on
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behalf of the hospital system that hey, there's it's safe there. They have
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medicines, they have operations. Don't you want those things? But I don't
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do that. Instead, I say what happened in your previous birth and the
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stories that I'm hearing every single day. If I were to ignore that,
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it would be almost unethical for me to keep doing it in the hospital.
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So even a person who has an unmedicated physiologic vaginal birth without any epidural,
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without any medications, and it only takes two hours, that sounds like a
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pretty dreaming, dreamy experience, except that was my wife's experience, and she
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did not feel good about it. There was something about how she was being
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spoken to, about the energy in the room around how she is being touched,
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Like she just felt like she was a part of this assembly line thing
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and that is not that is not what most women want from this. This
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what I would say, a sacred transformation. This is not a medical procedure.
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And you're not You don't have a disease just because you got pregnant.
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So why are we going to the hospitals, Like, if that's for sick
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people, why are we doing this in the hospital. Well, maternity units
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make more money for hospitals than any other union in the hospital period. Wow,
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it's the most profitable. And the more the faster you can get them
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in and out. There's that efficiency piece. The faster your team is able
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to run and get these things and get them in and get their baby out
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and add medicines to speed it up. The more the faster you can do
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that, the more money we can make. I hate to say it,
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but it is very much a profit in productivity driven philosophy, I suppose that
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we see. Yeah, and then of course fear plays a big part into
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this. Doctors don't want to be sued. Doctors don't want to have a
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dead baby in their hands. And I say dead baby very deliberately. A
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baby dies, a baby is not breathing, and they are not going to
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grow up into a twelve year old playing soccer. That is one of the
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more tremendously hard things for us to carry, and nobody talks about it.
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Nobody, you know, we don't have social support. Everybody wants to blame
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somebody. It gets into this weird like, you know, like fucking mailstrom
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of energy, when all that a person probably really needs is just to be
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held and to be loved and to be told like it's going to be okay.
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You're never gonna heal from this totally. It's just something that we have
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to help you integrate. Otherwise it becomes trauma that is unresolved in the body.
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I know you talk a lot about this, but instead, you know,
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people are compelled to not talk about this, and they don't even want
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to say dead baby. They say things like a baby passed away. No,
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the baby fucking died. And part of the reason is that we're pushing
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the babies out before they have to come, Like why are we messing with
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this process? If we get out of the way, which is what midwives
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and doulas do. Generally. Babies do just fine, and occasionally babies need
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to be transferred to the hospital in order to get a little bit of support,
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or mom needs to be transferred. But you know, all of this
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is to say that even though women are going in and having you know,
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natural physiologic vaginal bursts, a lot of them are saying I did not feel
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good about that, and then they say, I'm not doing that again.
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And once you start to unpact that and connect with people human connection is critical
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for this, then you can start to help kind of ease them into their
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next pregnancy. And that's what I get the joy of doing, so that
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we can help to resolve that trauma and we can get some of that fear
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in, some of that shit that was thrown at them in their previous bursts.
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To get that out of the way, we have to focus on this
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incredible transformation that's coming anew in nine months after you get that positive pregnancy test.
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I I've got the chills the entire time that you are speaking. Just
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now. It's in my brain. I have and I unfortunately I have to
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go to the er and all this Boloney fairly recently. And it wasn't because
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I was having a baby. It was because my pain level was so high.
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It was just like, this is stupid. I'm calling nime on one,
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which I never do, so for me to do that is like crazy,
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that's just me. I don't have a baby in my belly. I
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don't have another person that's going to be coming out. I was fustrated the
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entire time that I was in the hospital, and there was nothing special about
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me. It was just like, we don't know. It was just such
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an unnerving place to be and I feel like, if that's the place that
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we are when we're going to be giving birth, how does that affect the
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a experience? Obviously, but how does that impact the child? And when
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it comes out and it's like smack them, go get out of here.
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We got another girl down the hall that's coming in behind you, Like,
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how does that affect the child? Yeah, it's it's actually the question that's
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been on my mind recently. In fact, next week a podcast that I
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did with doctors Monique Andrews and Timary McIntyre. They have a program called the
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Prana Foundation and some other their chiropractors, but actually they've gone, they've become
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deeply invested in polyvagel theory. We get into this topic in particular, and
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I know that you're familiar because I've listened to your show. So when a
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baby is developing in the uterus, I'm gonna there's so many ways to answer
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your question. I know. Yeah, I think this actually is related also
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to the conversation around hospital versus home birth and why would on earth would somebody
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want to be so irresponsible to have an out of hospital birth. We did
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it in our second and it was healing from my wife who had a natural
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physiologic vaginal birth, her first in a hospital setting with a great OBGYN and
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a great team, but something didn't feel right. The home birth was full
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circle for her. It was ecstatic. I don't think she would use the
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word pleasurable, but she did not use words like I was afraid. I
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didn't feel heard, I didn't feel like I was in control, like she
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was completely in control. Because everything is centered around you. So the reason
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that that's important is that as a baby develops inside the uterus, we've got
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the nervous system right, We've got our brain, we've got a spinal cord,
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We've got a bunch of nerves going in and out of the spinal cord,
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transmitting information to your processing center whatever you want to call it. From
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the outside right, this is how we get around. This is how we
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know where to walk, how to move our body. We know somebody's talking
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to us like this is important. But the nervous system has always been described
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in a very simplistic way. I think overly simplistic that you have a gas
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pedal and a brake, you've got your sympathetic comparisympathetic. And that's not that
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it's true that you have that, but it's not entirely true. In fact,
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polyvagel theory has helped provide me with such a more productive way of looking
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at this, especially as a baby is developing in the uterus and as an
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advocate for home birth, I now have more of a reason, more of
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a compulsion for this to become the default as opposed to the exception in the
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United States. So when a baby's growing inside the uterus, first they develop
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the lower part of their nervous system, their dorsal vagel. This is the
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freeze. This is where if if you are, you know, being threatened,
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you just freeze up and you go inward like it's it's the deer in
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headlights kind of thing that is going to be associated with like a heart rate
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that's in like the sixties or seventies. And you can tell this by looking
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at a baby's heart rate. They have a low heart rate, and then
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suddenly the second trimester happens and now their sympathetic tone picks up. This is
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the the the flight or fight part. This is the cranked up heart rate.
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You're ready to rock. The MMA fighters, they've got a lot of
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sympathetic tone. Catechola means epinephy and whatnot, circulating flooding them. You don't
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feel pain as much like you're ready to rock. You're going to wrestle and
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fight to the death. That develops, and you're in the baby's heart rate
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cranks up into maybe the one eighty even range, you know, one eighty
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two hundred, and then the third trimester happens and you get a sort of
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an equilibrium and you end up in the range that most people associate with a
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healthy baby, which is one ten to one sixty. That third part that
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develops is called the ventral vaguel component of the parasympathetic nervous system. It's the
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I AM. It's when you're the most fully embodied, best version of you.
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Most of us are living in the I can, which is the sympathetic
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and then hopefully not many of us, although some of us are definitely living
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in that dorsal veagel, which is the I can't. It's the freeze you
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withdraw from the world. The chronic depression, people with chronic pain end up
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in that space quite a bit. The reason this is relevant to birth is
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that the baby starts developing the I AM, that sort of final piece of
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their nervous system, through the third trimester and into six months of life.
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Why is this relevant to birth, Well, if you take a baby out,
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the baby comes out of the womb and we immediately are blasting it with
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loud noises, harsh touch, sharp needles in the heels, goop on the
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eyes, just this crazy fucking alien space where they were in the amniotic universe
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and now they're suddenly in this battlefield that is going to inhibit their ability to
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fully clarify and balance out their nervous system through the lens of polyvagel theory.
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So it's not just acceleration or break Now here's the key. The alternative to
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the hospital setting, the out of hospital setting, where my wife and I
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had ninety minutes of labor total. Baby was asleep on my wife's chest right
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afterwards. And what were we doing? Oh everly, Oh you're here.
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Look at your little hands and toes. My wife's heart is beating our baby
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girl. Her heart's beating with my wife. They're breathing together. She's feeling
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the rise and fall. This is critical for the coregulation. This coregulation is
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critical for the development in the long term well being of a baby. So
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a pre term baby has a greater chance of sudden infant death syndrome. I
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think it's I think it's multifactorial. But a giant part of this is that
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they haven't developed the full complement of their nervous system, and they're locked away
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in a little incubator and they're never being touched. Mom's voice isn't there at
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all times twenty four to seven, letting them know that you're safe. I've
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got you, I'm your mom. We're going to do this together. That
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is what out of hospital birth looks like almost every time. And so when
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we think about the chronic illnesses that impact us. We get the nervous system,
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these neurologic disorders autism, depression, anxiety. I would be remiss if
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I didn't at least suggest that the fact that forty percent of babies are coming
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out of the abdomen, not through the vagina, and not ending up right
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on their mother's beautiful, warm breasts and like smelling one another, tasting one
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another, connecting through breastfeeding, that coregulation is critical and pre term babies don't
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get that, which is why suddenly their cardiovascular system just stops working. Their
23:45
nervous system isn't fully developed. So this is really really critical in our time,
23:48
especially when we consider how many people were living in dorsal vagel during COVID,
23:52
just afraid of everything in the world. You can't live you can't survive
23:57
in dorsal vagel. So so we've got this big, big problem. And
24:02
I think that that problem that we're seeing in the world, all of this
24:04
anxiety and tension and angst and and like just fear of one another, this
24:08
starts at birth. We're programming this into our kids nervous systems from day one
24:14
of life. Everybody take a deep breath for just a second, because that
24:17
was a lot, and it's good to hear and also very sad to hear
24:22
on some of these because I'm like, God, I'm just sitting here thinking,
24:26
like, I know all of my health issues. I know central,
24:29
I know my central nervous system is jacked. I know that I've dealt with
24:32
anxiety and depression from a very very very young age, was unable to and
24:37
so now I'm like, wait to go, mom. Ye, but we
24:41
didn't know any of this stuff. I mean ancestrally, yes, we do
24:47
inside of us because we were giving birth with a stick in our mouth in
24:49
the middle of a forest somewhere in Scotland. You know, like, give
24:52
me a break. We did it before without all of this, right,
24:56
and so coming back into this spiritual side of it and the emotional support side
25:02
of it and honoring that sacred practice and experiencing the pain of birth but also
25:08
not traumatizing yourself and your newborn baby. I mean, it's just it's nuts
25:12
because when you think about hospital guys, you think about the bright lights,
25:17
beeping noises like sounds and tubes and needles and all that. That is what
25:21
setting is. It's yeah, I know, the trauma from birth for both
25:27
the mother and the child. I think is such an important topic to talk
25:30
about because we just don't we we're so caught up in our systems and our
25:37
big pharma and our hospitals and profit and all of it. At the end
25:41
of the day, they're not thinking about this wonderful child that we're going to
25:44
be bringing into this world, and we're already giving them a map of fear
25:48
and safety issues and developmental potential issues. I mean, it just goes on
25:52
and on. It's it's scary. It's really scary. So you come in
25:59
and you do what now? So now you've got your business. You run
26:03
the holistic obgyn, Right, you are this man. You come in and
26:07
your service is to help too in this process. Yeah, you know,
26:12
there's this idea around, like amongst midwives who are in training and doctors who
26:18
are in training where it's like, hey, hands off, like don't touch.
26:22
The less you do, the better. Well, so there was a
26:25
midwife you shared a message recently on Instagram. I can't remember her name,
26:29
but she really brought up a really good point, which is like, if
26:32
you want to be hands off in a berth, you have to earn that
26:34
because only after you've seen so many catastrophes, do you know when you actually
26:38
need to intervene? Like if you just have this magical thinking that nothing should
26:42
be done, well you're fooling yourself and you're actually maybe putting your client in
26:48
harm. So when I say that I don't do anything, I say that
26:51
I only I should probably say I only do something if it's absolutely required of
26:56
me. And that's because I know that when I start putting my hands where
26:59
they don't belong, I create other issues that then require more intervention. And
27:03
the less we intervene in this otherwise natural process, the better off everybody is.
27:07
So having said that, when people come to me, the first thing
27:11
I try to do is I tell them, don't hire me, go find
27:15
a midwife. It's a terrible business model. I'm just gonna say, this
27:18
is not a profit center. No, no, no, no. I
27:22
if I wanted to get rich, I'd still be in the hospital doing hysterectomies
27:25
and putting people in birth controls. So when they come to me, I
27:29
say, well, tell me your story, and why is it that you
27:30
want me to be at your birth right? Like what happened in your previous
27:33
person? I had this traumatic thing happen or whatever. Have you considered hiring
27:37
a midwife? No, because I heard midwives or this or not. You
27:40
know, so I do a lot of dispelling there. And the reason I
27:41
do that is because, even though I think I'm the bee's knees, most
27:45
experienced midwives out there are going to be able to do what midwives do way
27:49
better than me. A want to be midwife, Like, I can't call
27:53
myself a midwife, even though I practiced like that, because that would be
27:56
an insult to the lineages of badass women caring for women across the entire world.
28:03
Like, I don't want to encroach upon that. So, going back
28:06
to the story of me leaving the system, when I left, when I
28:08
got fired, I mean, I'm using air quotes, but I was actually
28:11
fired, like flat out fired for the mask thing. It was a very
28:15
very scary at first because we were just about to have a baby and we
28:18
lost our health insurance and all of that. But I was like, Okay,
28:22
now I get to do things the way I want to do it.
28:25
And I could have gone into home birth practice and found an average fee sort
28:30
of structure that would work based on what other midwives are charging but I kind
28:33
of felt like, you know, midwives have taught me so much. I
28:36
have learned how to be a better man, father, husband, and doctor
28:40
because of midwives. If I really believe in changing maternity care, I know
28:44
that midwives do this better. So let me actually lend my support to them,
28:47
and I started collaborating with midwives around the country. I still do this
28:49
because many states require midwives cpm C and ms whatever to have a supervising physician,
28:56
which is the biggest bunch of bologny ever, because physicians don't do midwiffrey,
29:00
why would they be supervising midwives. But anyways, in order to support
29:03
them, they pay me on a monthly basis. They can reach out for
29:07
consultation, I can write meds, I can sign orders, all of that
29:08
for them. And despite my efforts there, I was still finding that women
29:15
were coming to me and if if I couldn't convince them to find a midwife,
29:18
usually it was because they had some sort of condition that the midwife could
29:22
not attend to, so like pre acclamsia, or the baby's a little small,
29:26
or maybe the baby's breach, or maybe there's twins and whatever. Every
29:30
state is a little different, so it was like, shit, you've had
29:33
I have a client coming up on Thanksgiving Day. Actually she's had four c
29:37
sections and she's pregnant again, and she does not want to go into the
29:41
hospital. Why because her fourth baby at the six month vaccine visit a couple
29:45
of days after that, was paralyzed from the neck down and has now a
29:48
feeding tube and a tracheostomy. So she's like, Doc, if you don't
29:53
help me, I'm going to do it myself. And I was like,
29:55
well, fuck man, Like I'm in, Like, I'm willing to help
29:57
you. But the next step is so I tell that because I'm only taking
30:03
super high risk people and lo and behold, they're still doing just fine at
30:06
home. But here's the kicker, And this I know is so important to
30:10
you. In fact, I could talk to you on my podcast and we'll
30:14
do that in the future. Around personal accountability. There's a lot of people
30:18
out there that have working arms and legs. They are white, they're set.
30:22
We're just gonna play into this, this whole narrative. Your white cysts.
30:26
You're Catholic and you have operational arms and life and you're good looking.
30:30
If you get gestational diabetes or pre acclamsia. I'm sorry, but you're not
30:34
a very healthy person and you didn't put all of those privileged cards to use
30:40
in order to optimize your health and your childbirth experience. Now that's not to
30:44
say that there aren't exceptions, but what I did there is I said,
30:48
I'm giving you every benefit of the doubt based on our societal's fuckery around who's
30:52
the haves and the have nots. So in your case, I know that
30:56
you've got you've got you know this regional syndrome and whatnot. You can wake
31:00
up every single day and say, well, fuck it, I'm just a
31:03
person who has pain or whatever. Instead, I meet a person who's wear's
31:07
funny T shirts, makes me laugh, is very pretty, and is just
31:11
doing the best with what she's got. This is relevant to this birth conversation
31:17
because everybody out there wants to have a dream birth, but they don't want
31:19
to take accountability for their decisions. If you can just take responsibility right now
31:26
for how you're showing up, how you're talking to people, how you're loving
31:27
yourself, like, how you're spending your time, where's your energy and focus
31:32
going, everything else changes, But that is something we are sorely lacking in
31:37
the United States, especially in maternity care, so they have to I have
31:41
a stern conversation that I cannot guarantee anything. I am here to apply my
31:47
skill set to ensure that we get you to whatever your goal is. And
31:51
if you say, hey, I'd rather have a dead baby on my hands
31:52
than go back to the hospital, Okay, that's probably not the choice I
31:56
would make or many other people would make, but that is you making an
31:59
adult decision, and I honor that. That's what we need so much more
32:02
of. Whether it's another COVID thing or whatever else. People just need to
32:06
start taking responsibility for their actions and the outcomes of those actions. That's what
32:10
freedom really looks like. And I don't think anybody even really appreciates what real
32:14
freedom means. You're more free than so many people I know that are not
32:19
found by, you know, a pain disorder like you are like a ball
32:22
of sunshine compared to a lot of other people that don't make that they actively
32:27
decide not to be you. That's exactly right. So sad, it is
32:30
sad, and I think that that is And thank you for all of the
32:34
kind words that you said about me. I almost cried for just a second
32:37
because everybody knows that I cry, But it means a lot for me.
32:42
Thank you for you to say that, and it is it is. It
32:46
is advocating for yourself, and it's something that when I decided that I wanted
32:51
to do this show, I came from a very different place than where I
32:53
am right now, and so the original pen Game podcast was not what it
32:57
is today. It never started because is not the right way for me to
33:00
go about handling life stuff and coping with things and the stress that that being
33:06
in chronic pain all day and being sick all day puts on your body,
33:09
puts on your spirit, puts on your spouse, puts on you know,
33:12
all of that. I mean, my sweetie is just like he's exhausted for
33:15
me because he's watching this all unfold. But he also is my biggest cheerleader
33:20
when it comes to He knows that I show fucking up every day and I
33:24
advocate for myself and I'm advocating for other people, and that is why I
33:28
am here, and that's why you are here. It sounds like you've got
33:31
such a good healing supportive like your role and your advocacy for these people it's
33:38
it's absolutely amazing. And what are you doing for us as a whole,
33:45
for women? Are you doing advocating for us? Like? At what level
33:50
are you doing that? Are you working with people in the government, are
33:53
you, I mean outside of what you're doing on the day to day,
33:55
are you working on other things? I'm just curious, Uh. I I
34:04
don't like using should, would, could? I probably should be in the
34:08
governmental like politicking and all of that. Yeah, But there's a part of
34:15
me that's a little bit cynical. Remember I described that like I was healing
34:19
from the you know, the journey and looking back and realizing that I waste
34:22
my whole life, like from age eighteen deciding I was going to be pre
34:27
med I guess I probably could take that approach. But there's a part of
34:34
me that is still cynical about what is actually possible given our current state of
34:40
affairs within our governmental institutions. I'm not like I have no I really don't
34:46
give a shit if you vote red or blue. I've gone through periods recently
34:51
of like I don't even want to be in this country anymore. And that's
34:54
not to say I'm not grateful for living here. It's just like it's like
34:59
you're giving me who was at South Park was like, you're giving me the
35:01
option of a douchebag or a turd sandwich. And I don't even believe that
35:07
that elected official at that level is making any difference. I have seen so
35:14
much corruption and so much like corporate toocracy grifting that has directly impacted the care
35:22
that I provide to my family, to me, to my clients. And
35:25
COVID was kind of the final nail. There was just so much wrong from
35:30
even a strictly epidemia logic perspective on how that was managed that I was like,
35:37
oh my god, I was getting so optimistic. I was actually thinking
35:39
maybe council seats, Like maybe I can make a difference in Kentucky, even
35:43
around something like abortion. Yeah, and it was before the neck tattoo is,
35:47
by the way, I don't know, I don't know how that.
35:52
I don't know if that would go so well. But well not if you're
35:54
voting red. No, no, probably not. Yeah, so you know,
36:00
I and then even uh, I got off my train of thought there.
36:04
But but I saw I was becoming so much more optimistic, and I
36:08
was like a Bernie Sanders guy. I was like progression, Yeah, like
36:12
we're we're seeing change. Like I don't know what happened, but something just
36:16
snapped for me. And I was like, I don't think anybody really,
36:21
like really cares at that level. I just can't trust you anymore. And
36:24
the COVID thing exposed so much issue, so many issues that I already had
36:29
a like kind of knew about. But then suddenly everybody was like, like
36:32
you had mentioned this earlier. Suddenly everybody was like hailing pharmaceutical companies as being
36:37
the good guys. And I was like, are you guys out of your
36:40
mind? The amount of ongoing lawsuits for something like the Garda sil vaccine,
36:45
the one to prevent cervical cancer. There's ongoing litigation in every single state.
36:50
Are you guys fucking insane? And then I was like, wait, hold
36:53
on, I have to be compassionate about everybody's journey and this and that.
36:55
And then I was like, I can't be running for office and getting myself
37:00
into this because I become so emotionally invested in the outcome that it's maybe not
37:06
for me. Maybe I'm not good at just saying the thing that needs to
37:07
be said to get it past, Like I'm just not that guy. So
37:10
instead I work in my own little enclave. I work with an individuals one
37:15
on one, and I try to see like where, how where can I
37:19
help you? So even if you want to have a hospital earth, how
37:21
can I help you navigate that? That's where I feel like maybe that's the
37:25
optimist in me coming back, Like one by one, I get to know
37:30
people. I get them to love me, and then I get and then
37:32
I can love them back. But one thing I'll add and then I'll stop
37:36
talking. But it's a podcast what we're supposed to be doing though, Yeah,
37:40
okay, well that's true. I think one of the biggest pains that
37:45
we're going the growing pains that we're going through right now, is everybody is
37:47
craving authenticity and they won't admit it to themselves. Like you really actually want
37:53
somebody to be authentically genuinely them, even if you don't like what they have
37:58
to say, You want them to be just show them all of your cards.
38:01
That's what we want so badly, But then we punish people for doing
38:05
that because we're so insecure about showing that ourselves. So if I went into
38:09
politics, I wouldn't be able to be authentically me, and I can't be
38:13
anybody but me, and you can't be me either, because I'm fucking Nathan
38:15
Riley. Yeah exactly, you do you, I'll do me, and we'll
38:22
shake hands and somewhere in the middle. Like so anyways, that authenticity thing,
38:27
I just see it lacking everywhere, all of the like five hacks to
38:30
fix endometriosis, the greatest molecular hydrogen therapy machine. Like you guys are just
38:36
blowing smoke up each other's asses, Like who's actually doing the work. I'm
38:40
doing the work and you're doing the work, Like these podcasts are, these
38:44
conversations are doing the work. So the smoke screen of what people think they
38:50
need because they're being billboarded at every moment and ever every day, there's this
38:53
little part of us that wance that authenticity. And I can say that when
38:57
I die, whether it's tomorrow or fifty years from now, I have been
39:00
authentically me from the moment I put on my big boy pants when I was
39:04
eighteen. Maybe it wasn't eighteen, probably like twenty eight. You're a man,
39:08
let's be real, twenty eight Yeah, yeah, right, right right.
39:14
I can say I've been authentically me and that feels really really good.
39:16
If I just keep doing that, I think I'm going to be just fine.
39:19
And I think You're going to be just fine because you're authentically Lindsey.
39:22
Yeah I am, And I agree with that entirely because being you know,
39:28
I ask these people to come onto this show and be a guest here and
39:30
to share their stories. And if I'm not going to be authentic and I'm
39:34
not going to be real and I'm not going to be raw and gritty and
39:37
vulnerable and honest and open and bleed all over this microphone, then I have
39:43
no business being behind it. Because the whole point is that I'm trying to
39:47
shake some cages. I'm trying to rattle us up to pay more attention,
39:51
to take our own healthcare into our own hands and take it away from the
39:55
people that are making decisions for our bodies and for us. They don't live
40:00
in it. They don't know what I feel. All I know is that
40:01
I've explained my story to so many doctors and nobody has gone home and said,
40:07
you know what, I'm going to figure out how we're going to fucking
40:08
fix this girl? Yeah, not one time. And so here I am
40:13
trying to create an environment, and I've all kinds of things that are coming
40:16
out that it's going to be amazing for my listeners and for everybody in this
40:20
entire planet from my perspective, to help shift this because I hate our healthcare
40:27
system and I hate the way I have been treated within it. Pregnant or
40:30
not, it doesn't matter. If we are not advocating for ourselves, then,
40:32
like you said, just nobody else is going to do it. Yeah,
40:35
nobody else going to do it of it. So now I have to
40:37
look out for yourself and hopefully that means that that that love. So,
40:42
so here's the I love that you brought this up, Lindsay. So,
40:44
like, we have a whole bunch of broken down doctors and nurses, right,
40:47
They're supposed to be caring for other people, yet they're working within a
40:50
system that has dehumanized them from the moment they set foot into their first training
40:53
program. Where you're I mean, I had a program director tell me your
40:57
family needs you're distracted, Your family needs to know they come second now because
41:00
you're a doctor. And I was like, oh my god, what the
41:04
fuck am I doing. You're like, well, I'm married to my high
41:06
school sweetheart. She's a megababe. We've had two babies together, and I
41:08
find her hotter than ever, and I just want to sometimes just sit down
41:12
and watch TV with her and give her a foot rub. And that's not
41:15
going to be that's going to be preceded by my work responsibilities. Like I
41:20
have deep compassion for all these healthcare workers who have never been incentivized to love
41:24
themselves. If you can't love yourself, how are you possibly going to care
41:29
for somebody with chronic regional pain syndrome. That's a really tall ask of somebody.
41:34
So the whole foundation of what we call medicine needs to just be shifted.
41:38
And I don't know how we do that. People say politics and policy
41:42
and all this, like I don't know if that's really it. I think
41:44
it comes down to this. And there's a reason I don't work in that
41:47
system because I didn't see it possible that I could change it from within.
41:51
Well you can't, and it's one of the reasons why so many people are
41:53
popping out of corporate America too. I mean, I couldn't ever do it
41:57
because it's just not my jam. It's just one of those things where we
42:00
have to we have to. We have to love ourselves and choose us first,
42:04
because other than that, if we're choosing everybody before us and we're choosing
42:08
the patriarchy, we're chasing these big, huge dreams that we thought we were
42:13
going to be having instead of chasing your own health and your own wellness and
42:16
your own care that you're gonna suck for everybody in your life. And when
42:21
you start focusing on you, it's a win for everybody because it goes,
42:25
it rolls down right. I can't be on the bottom of that ladder.
42:30
I have to be at the top. And when you start to shift that
42:32
mindset, and it's hard to do, and it's not gonna happen overnight,
42:36
But when you start to chip away a little bit at that mindset and changing
42:38
your focus so that it's more on you and your well being and your healthcare
42:42
and advocating for your own body and your family and your spouse and what have
42:45
you, it thinks shift. Yes, it's pretty it's pretty amazing. How
42:51
long have you been doing what you're doing? Well? It got fired September
42:57
third, twenty twenty one, so it's only been about three years that I've
43:01
been fully immersed in what I'm doing now, but in that time I have
43:07
I mean it fully immersed in the sense that like I've got no other income,
43:09
I need to start making money, Like because we've got bills, we
43:14
had to buy health insurance. Who knew? Who knew that health insurance was
43:16
so expensive? Holy shit, like so expensive. And I have like the
43:22
Primo primo ppo, you know, planning California, and I still can't get
43:28
like acupuncture or chirotic I mean, like, give me a break, get
43:31
to forget. These insurance brokers are just full of shit. So I know.
43:37
But I started up doing my original podcast, which is now being rebooted.
43:40
It's the Obiguio Wino podcast, where I review the clinical summaries and put
43:45
in part some of my insights from a functional medicine and even a holistic lifestyle
43:51
coach background and home birth and all of that. I impart that in there.
43:53
But I started doing that when I was in fellowship in San Diego,
43:58
So that was in like twenty nine, And as I was recording those summaries,
44:02
it was like, really to help me study for my surgical board exams,
44:06
which is a gnarly shit fest five hours just being peppered with questions,
44:09
very high fail rate, like twenty percent of people don't pass. So from
44:15
a board standpoint, that was like a really hard thing. So I was
44:17
I was going through all of a COG's you know, practice bulletins and all
44:21
their guidelines, and as I was publishing these, I thought it would be
44:23
helpful to other Obi Juan's But it was all these midwives and doulas who were
44:28
listening, and I was like, you guys like this, that's that's cool,
44:30
And I just started exploring that because I loved midwives, I didn't have
44:34
any skin in the game. I was still a hospital based Obi jun working
44:37
full time at Scripts and Ensinnitas. Oh. But then I but I was
44:40
like, well, I was paring a bottle of wine with each episode,
44:44
and I just was having so much fun with it. And then I got
44:45
through all of every one of their guidelines. There was an episode for each
44:47
and I stopped doing the podcast and started doing my current one. But what
44:52
I learned through that was that this the ability to build bridges with out of
44:57
hospital you know, commune need birth workers was actually something that I really loved
45:02
doing, Like if if I could get a little bit of trust from that
45:07
community, imagine how we could learn from one another. And that's that kind
45:09
of set the stage I think for what I'm for where I'm at now.
45:13
But I've also had so many people reaching out now for my support that we
45:17
had to come up. We started launching programs. We've got one for pregnancy
45:21
and postpartum support, which is this massive undertaking, but it's called the Borton
45:24
Free Method. We are now launching clear and Free, which is your holistic
45:29
solution to persistent HPV. You wanted to talk about fuckering the medical system man
45:34
the Gardasil vaccine and how we're managing PAP smears and HPV screens. Holy shit,
45:39
it is heartbreaking. It is really really bad what we're doing out there.
45:45
That just makes me. I have HPV even But if you don't have
45:46
HPV, you're a fucking loser. I mean, come on, let's be
45:49
real. People have HPV. Yeah, give me a break. I mean,
45:54
yeah, I mean it is what it is. I mean I had
45:57
fun getting it, so you know there's that. Did you have fun?
46:04
What did you learn? Did you have fun getting HPV? Why think it's
46:09
been a real word of a time. No, it's just it's yeah,
46:14
I mean you can go down this slippery slow mean, we could talk for
46:16
you know, five hours more than that just on that alone. It's just
46:20
it's it's mind boggling. But I am so grateful to have met you because
46:24
it's a conversation that we've not had on this show yet in relation to what
46:28
we've been talking about today, and it's eye opening to me in so many
46:32
ways. And I hope that there are mothers and to be mothers and to
46:36
be fathers that have been listening today because one of the things that I love
46:39
about you too is how this process for you really it really really made you
46:45
such a good father and yeah, like just that transition into being a father
46:51
and all of that, How how this has made you just such an incredible
46:55
man, incredible husband, incredible you know, father and all of that through
46:59
this process. Because I think that the fathers are missed a lot in this
47:04
process as well, and you know, just the mom's having the baby,
47:07
well the dad also kind of has a little bit to do with it.
47:10
Here, can you speak just for a moment a little bit about the fatherhood
47:14
side before we before we hit the dusty trail here, let me start by
47:16
saying that you don't get the birth or the kids that you want. You
47:21
get the birth or the kids that you need. And it's like going to
47:23
burning Man or doing mushrooms. You don't get the trip you want. You
47:27
get the trip you need. Like, where do I start with that one?
47:34
No, it's it's it's a good it's a it's a lovely God.
47:36
It's such a beautiful conversation that is starting to unfold. And I think I'll
47:40
start by saying that when I was in my training, you know, it
47:44
was like the dad wants to be involved, he wants to cut the cord
47:45
in this and that, and it was like, okay, dad, cut
47:47
the cord or whatever you are. Yeah, we've kind of just the sort
47:53
of mystical side of this birth experience and the role of a father, a
47:57
conscious like man in the room has there's two ways that this has gone.
48:01
In one camp, it's let's bring them in and let them cut the cord.
48:05
Oh data, yeah, cut the cord, and it's like infantilizing.
48:08
On the other hand, there's a lot of women out there that are like
48:10
men shouldn't be evolved in birth, and a lot of people are going to
48:13
hear this episode and be like what's this, bucking guy I have to do
48:15
with birth? Like birth belongs to women. And I get that. I
48:17
hear that. It's everything has been taken from like the ruling elites, generally
48:22
white European men, over the throughout human history. I get that, And
48:29
a true feminist is going to honor what the divine masculine in all of us
48:32
brings to the conversation. We unfortunately have been living in a hyper masculine,
48:37
patriarchal, hierarchical, hegemonical society for time immemorial. So when we start to
48:47
push back, when we start to say, you know, feminine, feminine,
48:50
feminine, I am all for that, and I want people to consider
48:54
that this is not like male female penis ball. But we're not talking about
48:59
that. We're talking about the energetics of the sun and the moon, the
49:02
moon being the yin, the feminine, the sun being the young, the
49:07
masculine, the Tao. Like a lot of our Eastern philosophies, they honor
49:12
this as a part of an important part of being alive and being well and
49:15
being well grounded in your sort of full embodiment as a human. You have
49:21
the yin and yong symbol where one consumes the other in this ever going cycle.
49:24
The center point is the way of the Tao. You have these two
49:28
forces at play in your wiring, in your house, and every component of
49:32
the universe. These divine, these sacred polarities are everything in childbirth. So
49:39
there are men out there who don't just want to be there cutting the cord.
49:44
They want to be fully immersed in the most magical thing that a man
49:47
could ever possibly be witnessed to. And it's their own child. That is
49:52
the most compelling thing that any man will ever go through, is witnessing the
49:58
birth of their own child. And if you if you don't think that,
50:00
then you weren't there, like like you weren't there if you don't believe that.
50:05
So now that doesn't mean every man has to be or every young boy
50:09
has to have a baby and be a father in order to become a man.
50:14
And if you're a man and you want to have a real growth like
50:19
rocket ship to like real masculinity, taking advantage of the invitation and opportunity to
50:24
sit with the person you love the most while they are bringing your baby earthside
50:30
is the ultimate right of passage in a world that is devoid of rights of
50:34
passage. So there's an opportunity there for you to be the mountain and to
50:37
witness a person going through the tribulation of their life without coming to it with
50:43
a solution, without interrupting it, without intervening in some way. That shows
50:46
that you're the like the CEO or whatever you know, whatever you were taught
50:51
by your dad or grandfather. Being able to hold space as the mountain does
50:54
for the careeming, raging river running through the valley. That is the role,
50:59
the opportunity for a man, and being good at that is going to
51:04
change your sex life. It's going to change how you relate to your mother,
51:07
your sister, your children, yourself. Being able to hold space is
51:12
not something that a lot of people are really dialed in on, but birth
51:15
is the ultimate opportunity to start exercising that. So I bring a lot of
51:20
men into my conversations. In the Born Free Method program, there's a whole
51:22
unit dedicated to the dads. You never get it right when it's time,
51:27
but in retrospect you always think about, like wow, like what a privilege
51:31
that I was invited into this space, Like what an awesome opportunity to be
51:36
a part of this and it's way beyond cutting the cord. Wow, that
51:40
was so eloquently put because I like that we're giving some space, holding space
51:46
for the fathers in this part, because I think that they end up getting
51:50
kind of lost in the shuffle of it. Yeah, and I definitely want
51:53
to honor that part of you know, I don't know, bringing a child
51:57
into the world kind of important. I mean, I don't know. Yeah,
52:04
this has been so incredibly wonderful. I want to keep talking to you,
52:08
but we can't. Before we leave, is there anything that you'd like
52:13
to leave our listeners with? And also we need to find out where we
52:16
find you online because I know you've got a bunch of new stuff coming out.
52:20
The thing I want to leave people with is stop taking this so seriously,
52:24
Like, give yourself a break, give everybody a break. Don't go
52:28
on Twitter and start unleashing hell on people because they said something about Israel or
52:31
Gaza or something that you don't agree with. Stop taking this so seriously and
52:36
just do your very best in trust that every single person that crosses your path
52:39
is doing their very best. Hold a little bit of space, give them
52:44
a little bit of grace. And oh that's a T shirt. Right there
52:45
that is yeah, yeah, and just stop like just stop carry like stop
52:53
being so cynical and so serious about everything, like there is so many beautiful
52:59
flowers to smell. There was this National Geographic photojournalist that this was before COVID,
53:04
but he had said, you know, I have the best job in
53:07
the world. He did a TED talk and he said, I have the
53:07
best job in the world. I get to go around the world and take
53:10
pictures of beautiful things. And he said, if you don't have a job
53:15
like that, you're going to start to believe that the world is a fearful,
53:20
terrible place where everything is falling apart. And maybe it's true. I
53:22
don't know, but in my direct experience with life, there's a lot of
53:27
beautiful things. There's a lot of beautiful things to taste, beverages to consume,
53:31
drugs to imbibe, sex to be had, flowers to be smelled,
53:37
trees to admire. Like we're in Kentucky. I was just in Pittsburgh and
53:39
there was like blazing red and orange yellow in my hometown. Like this photojournalist
53:45
said, don't forget that there is so much beauty out there. So guys
53:51
like just stop taking everything so seriously and literally stop and smell the flowers.
53:55
There is so much out there for you to see and for you to enjoy
54:00
in whatever time you have left on this planet. Yeah, I mean it
54:02
gives us an opportunity to go out and get HPV. Yeah, go get
54:06
your go, get some HPV. Everybody else We're gonna leave with that,
54:10
because that is a very Lindsy way at it. Do it. We're gonna
54:15
come on, gotta get them all, gotta collect them all. Oh my
54:21
god, Well, thank you so much leaving it with this, because we
54:23
have to thank you so much for your time here today with me. This
54:28
has just been epic, beyond epic. It's been really nice to get to
54:30
know you even further than what we've already done. So thanks for your time,
54:32
man, I really appreciate it. Likewise, oh, can I tell
54:36
people where to find me? I forgot to even say that. Yeah,
54:37
that's okay. If we were talking about HPV and flowers, I mean we
54:40
can get to strated. I like poetic narcissism took over a little bit.
54:47
So. Pregnancy and Postpartum support bornfreemethod dot com for people who are struggling with
54:52
a conversation on any vaccines, immune system HPV, PAP smears all of the
54:58
cervical cancer screening stuff. I'll whole lifestyle program clear in for our clear HPV
55:02
dot com. I'm on Instagram at Nathan Riley Obijuan. I've got a podcast
55:07
called The Holistic Obijuan Podcast. The other one's called the Obi Gino Wino Podcast.
55:10
But go to Beloved Holistics dot com. That's my website where you can
55:14
find most of that. Otherwise, man, I I wouldn't. I could
55:20
even leave my phone number. I don't really care. I really just love
55:22
connecting with people. I won't do that because you know, don't do that.
55:24
Let's not do that. But I really do love hearing from people,
55:28
and Lindsay, to be invited into conversations like this is it's like a way
55:32
of being. I just love how you are and to be able to coregulate
55:37
with you for an hour and a half has just been a joy. So
55:38
thank you, thank you. That's You've just I feel like I'm blushing a
55:43
little bit. You've been giving me so many accolades throughout this entire episode.
55:45
Now that's the HPV. That's not blood. You're not blessed that my bad
55:49
that's my badness right. Oh my god, your HP show there it is.
55:57
Well, thank you again for your time and you are just incredible.
56:00
And keep on doing what you're doing because we got to do it one,
56:02
you know, one person at a time. We just keep on going.
56:06
That's what that's what we need to do. Yeah, thank you so much.
56:09
Thank you. I'm gonna go ic my face. You are exclusively invited
56:15
to share this empowering and sacred VIP pain journey together. Let's get to the
56:20
heart of how to heal with you by my side. I'd love to have
56:23
my community of listeners help drive some more traffic to the show so we can
56:27
continue to help others on their journeys through pain and trauma together. So let's
56:30
do some reviews of the show if you could, that would be helpful.
56:32
And also, just like Nathan said he was talking about, hey, he
56:36
loves connecting with people. If you know somebody that is going through something similar
56:39
to what we've been talking about today, send them our way, send them
56:43
to me, send them to Nathan. We are here. We would love
56:45
to connect with them and hear your heartfelt stories of strength and wisdom and grit
56:50
and here to help support in anything that we can. Please follow the Pain
56:53
Game Podcast wherever you digest your podcast content, we will be there. Visit
56:58
us at the pain Game podcast dot com and follow us on all the socials.
57:01
Thanks for listening to my little VIPs. Catch you on the other side.