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TheDocNCarolynPodcast.com Episode 145 (REV 10) · TheDocNCarolynPodcast

0:00
SPEAKER_02: Episode 145 of the Doc and Carolyn Podcast deals with police homicide investigations.
0:04
SPEAKER_02: Some of the language and content may be sensitive for some.
0:07
SPEAKER_02: Listener discretion is advised.
0:09
SPEAKER_05: Doc and Carolyn Podcast.
0:11
SPEAKER_02: Episode 145 of the Doc and Carolyn Podcast.
0:15
SPEAKER_02: Hello.
0:16
SPEAKER_06: Back again.
0:17
SPEAKER_02: I was about to say who I am, lady.
0:19
SPEAKER_02: Don't be cutting me off, man.
0:21
SPEAKER_06: Who are you am?
0:22
SPEAKER_02: What'd you say?
0:23
SPEAKER_02: Who am I anyway?
0:24
SPEAKER_06: I said, who are you am?
0:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I am.
0:28
SPEAKER_02: Doc Kilgore here.
0:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I everybody knows the story about how I got that name as a stage name from my radio days back.
0:35
SPEAKER_02: And please hear me.
0:36
SPEAKER_02: Not a real doctor.
0:38
SPEAKER_02: So many years ago I can't mention, but I got that name from my from an old boss when I first moved down to Houston.
0:44
SPEAKER_02: He thought, you know, Houston has one of the biggest medical complexes in the world.
0:48
SPEAKER_06: Yes, they do.
0:50
SPEAKER_02: And uh he thought to appeal to that part of the audience here that I should have a fancy name like Doc.
0:56
SPEAKER_02: So I just kind of stuck around all these.
0:58
SPEAKER_06: And then you got yourself a nurse.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: And you are a famous nurse practitioner.
1:02
SPEAKER_02: Look at you.
1:03
SPEAKER_02: Uh we're gonna talk about uh truehealinghealthcare.net and the new services you're offering.
1:08
SPEAKER_02: A little bit more.
1:09
SPEAKER_02: I know we talked about it last week, but uh some more updates on that.
1:12
SPEAKER_02: We survived at Wardo.
1:14
SPEAKER_02: What do you think about that?
1:16
SPEAKER_06: Um there wasn't much excitement.
1:18
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it wasn't too much excitement.
1:19
SPEAKER_06: Not here at our house anyway.
1:21
SPEAKER_02: Boy, but not too far away.
1:22
SPEAKER_02: We've been hearing uh Livingston.
1:24
SPEAKER_02: If you watch us, if you follow us on Facebook at all, I talk about uh going to the barber shop.
1:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, barber is like 92 years old.
1:31
SPEAKER_02: And the thing is she is so precious.
1:34
SPEAKER_02: She's 92 and uh she's a beautiful Christian lady.
1:39
SPEAKER_02: And but the thing is, if you go in there, you gotta listen to the stories, right?
1:44
SPEAKER_02: I went in there the other day and I got there right at she opens at eight.
1:46
SPEAKER_02: I got there right at eight, and I'm sitting in the chair and there were no other customers, so she didn't feel any sense of urgency at all.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: She was just like, and she tell the story, she put the scissors down and she sat in a chair.
1:58
SPEAKER_02: I'd be like, Well, well, I gotta I got some other stuff that I kind of have to do.
2:02
SPEAKER_02: And and you know, fortunately some other customers did walk in and it's kind of like having someone in your back seat.
2:08
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah where you kind of because you can't escape from the show.
2:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
2:13
SPEAKER_02: Well, she's wonderful, and um, you know, it's nice seeing her.
2:16
SPEAKER_02: But anyway, that area where her barbershop is where I where we go all the time has been just devastated by flooding.
2:22
SPEAKER_02: Um I've seen in I haven't been down there, but I've been watching it on on the news with everybody else.
2:27
SPEAKER_06: Is her shop?
2:28
SPEAKER_06: Is it a lot of people?
2:29
SPEAKER_06: No, I don't think so.
2:29
SPEAKER_02: Not not that particular area, but some areas of loving and l of Livingston, Texas that are you know just in the lower areas uh have been kind of stressed.
2:38
SPEAKER_02: So um that's what's been going on in Texas.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: Texas and Tejas.
2:42
SPEAKER_02: We have to do part two of the interview with Jeff with detective Jeff Scher.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: Did you did you catch last week uh where Jeff gets uh the story is he's he's at work at Homicide.
2:53
SPEAKER_02: I mean, he's on he's a member of the Cincinnati retired now, but a member of Cincinnati Police Department um and was working in homicide, and he has the distinction of being on a few seasons of the first 48.
3:05
SPEAKER_06: That's so cool.
3:06
SPEAKER_02: It is cool.
3:07
SPEAKER_02: And uh I think starting maybe in season six, seven, look up the Cincinnati episodes, and Jeff Scherer is uh one of the detectives solving some cases, and his partner is Kurt Ballman.
3:18
SPEAKER_02: If you get on YouTube, you can probably put some combination of that stuff together and see Jeff and see kind of the methodology they use in solving cases.
3:26
SPEAKER_02: But anyway, he was at homicide and the phone rings, and somebody phones in a tip on a 44-year-old police involved police murder.
3:37
SPEAKER_02: Uh a police officer is murdered in the line of duty and it's never solved over 44 years.
3:43
SPEAKER_02: And we have a uh Jeff talks about in our academy, they have a memorial wall of all the officers that have paid the ultimate sac sacrifice.
3:51
SPEAKER_02: And uh his case was one of the uh one of the um uh pictures of the patrolman and and uh the story of his um of his murder.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: And his is the only one with the distinction unsolved.
4:03
SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
4:03
SPEAKER_02: So Jeff gets this uh the the call goes in the homicide, and the lieutenant at the time just because happens to run into him and assigns it to him and his partner.
4:12
SPEAKER_02: And he wrote he's written a book about it.
4:14
SPEAKER_02: That's why we're here talking about it.
4:16
SPEAKER_02: Um the book is called Shots Fred on Reading Road, and it's uh cold case investigation 44 years long, uh, that they solve.
4:23
SPEAKER_02: It's a fascinating story.
4:24
SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna hear Jeff do part two, tell part two of that story.
4:28
SPEAKER_06: That's so interesting how he got to the bottom of it.
4:31
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, and um homicides from a uh I talked a little bit about this last week.
4:37
SPEAKER_02: Homicides for a patrol officer is very, very different from what they do.
4:41
SPEAKER_02: When we when we get dispatched to a to a uh you know, to a crime or the stabbing, a shooting, or whatever, drowning, whatever it is, and it is is uh going to be under investigation as a potential homicide.
4:54
SPEAKER_02: You know, our main job is to just preserve the scene.
4:57
SPEAKER_02: You have to uh pay attention to who you allow in and out of the crime scene.
5:01
SPEAKER_02: Uh all everything has to be left pretty much exactly the way it is.
5:04
SPEAKER_02: I talked last week about you walk into a room and the fact that you turn a light switch uh on or off, if the lights were off and somebody's giving their version of the story.
5:16
SPEAKER_02: The upstairs neighbor said, Yeah, I was downstairs and I did everything and I left the lights on when I left.
5:21
SPEAKER_02: We get there, the lights are off.
5:24
SPEAKER_02: So somebody turned them off, and we need to find out who that person is.
5:27
SPEAKER_02: So all the stuff connects in a way that is uh I don't know, it's pretty fascinating if you like police work and true crime and all that.
5:34
SPEAKER_06: Puzzle piecing.
5:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but it's but his uh book is Shots Field on Reading Road, and we'll get to him on that in just a few.
5:40
SPEAKER_02: You, young lady.
5:42
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
5:44
SPEAKER_02: You I I I'm so I'm in awe of of of what you're doing because um when you started on this, I posted for thir for throwback Thursday, we're doing this on Thursday.
5:54
SPEAKER_02: I posted on our Facebook page that you're five years into being a nurse practitioner, and you have now your own business, you're expanding the services.
6:04
SPEAKER_02: You were telling me you got two new patients.
6:07
SPEAKER_02: This this week, I think.
6:09
SPEAKER_06: Two new male testosterone patients.
6:12
SPEAKER_02: So what is that we talked about that before?
6:15
SPEAKER_02: Um why they need testosterone for what reason?
6:19
SPEAKER_02: I know it's a hormone and I know we have a lot of men, uh it's a distinction for men, but I don't know the medical side of it because I've never studied that.
6:27
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, there are uh there are several reasons that men's hormone levels drop.
6:33
SPEAKER_06: The uh the main one is age.
6:35
SPEAKER_06: Okay.
6:36
SPEAKER_06: So um, but they kind of start feeling pretty crummy.
6:41
SPEAKER_06: It's harder for them to build muscle, they lose hair.
6:44
SPEAKER_02: Is it is it something that many and just I just know this from from being around you all the time.
6:50
SPEAKER_02: There are many foods and supplements that can make up for deficiencies that we have.
6:54
SPEAKER_02: Is is is testosterone or the hormones uh something that can be augmented or improved by eating habits and supplements, maybe?
7:03
SPEAKER_06: Um sometimes.
7:04
SPEAKER_06: Sometimes you can boost it, but um some people just need a little extra help.
7:09
SPEAKER_06: And so I can give them actual testosterone.
7:13
SPEAKER_02: You are so cool though.
7:14
SPEAKER_02: How are you uh managing because you still do clinical work and then you have patients in your now bio uh identical hormone replacement therapy, then you do your regular functional integrative medicine uh patients.
7:30
SPEAKER_06: Correct.
7:30
SPEAKER_02: Are you feeling are you feeling it at all?
7:32
SPEAKER_02: Because you you just kind of bounce around and and seem to be pretty cool about all of it.
7:37
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I just kind of compartmentalize everything.
7:41
SPEAKER_02: Well, you're doing good at that.
7:42
SPEAKER_02: You're doing really good.
7:43
SPEAKER_06: I'm Carolyn Kilgore, founder and provider at TrueHealing Healthcare.net.
7:47
SPEAKER_02: Why functional medicine?
7:49
SPEAKER_06: Because you're more than just a list of symptoms.
7:51
SPEAKER_06: Traditional care often masks the problem, but functional medicine digs deeper to find the root cause.
7:57
SPEAKER_02: What makes true healing health care different?
8:00
SPEAKER_06: We move away from the one size fits all approach.
8:03
SPEAKER_06: We look at your environment and your lifestyle to create a roadmap tailored specifically for you.
8:09
SPEAKER_02: What if someone really wants to make a change?
8:11
SPEAKER_06: If you're tired of feeling fine and want to start feeling great, it's about proactive wellness, not just reactive treatment.
8:18
SPEAKER_02: What's the deal with telemedicine?
8:20
SPEAKER_06: As long as you're 18 and have an internet connection, you can have a visit in the privacy of your own home or anywhere else in Texas.
8:28
SPEAKER_06: We're able to order labs or prescribe or whatever else you need.
8:31
SPEAKER_02: True Healing Healthcare.net for the great state of Texas.
8:35
SPEAKER_02: So we're going to pick up the true crime story, Shots Fired on Reading Road.
8:39
SPEAKER_02: Our interview with Detective Jeff Scher of the Cincinnati Police Department, retired as he gets a tip into the homicide unit about a 44-year-old police officer's murder.
8:52
SPEAKER_02: And Jeff is going to pick it up where he meets with this lady and she tells him what she knows.
9:00
SPEAKER_03: And when he was drunk, he would get belligerent, he would get angry, he would get abusive.
9:04
SPEAKER_03: And she tells us that uh she had gotten some some uh bad news from the doctor and doesn't really say what it is, but we kind of get the idea it's terminal, maybe terminal cancer or something like that, but terminal.
9:15
SPEAKER_03: And she had this on her chest, she wanted to get it off.
9:18
SPEAKER_03: Uh so she tells us that her now ex-husband had told her the story during a drunken stupor, that uh he and another guy had tried to break into a rail car along Reading Road and that they were confronted by a shadow and a figure in the dark, and they both pulled out guns and they fired shots, and then they took off running.
9:38
SPEAKER_03: They assume that they killed him or at least shot him.
9:40
SPEAKER_03: They don't know.
9:41
SPEAKER_03: Uh, but um, he tells her this, and he tells her that if you ever tell anyone, I'll kill you.
9:47
SPEAKER_03: So she's scared.
9:49
SPEAKER_03: And she, from what she we figured out when she's telling us, he tells her this around 1963.
9:54
SPEAKER_03: So two years after Don Martin was killed.
9:57
SPEAKER_03: She doesn't tell anyone.
9:58
SPEAKER_03: That's 1963.
10:00
SPEAKER_03: So you're talking this is 05, so what, 42 years, I guess?
10:04
SPEAKER_03: She has this on her chest.
10:05
SPEAKER_03: So it comes in now that she wants to get off her chest because, like I said, it's terminal.
10:10
SPEAKER_03: So we take her information, we take the story, we record it.
10:13
SPEAKER_02: So you're satisfied at that point in the interview that this is a good lead.
10:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that she was credible for what she told us, but um, you know, we didn't have anything at um at the time that fit this, right?
10:25
SPEAKER_03: Because we knew that we knew from the Don Martin case that it wasn't a rail line, it was a Lincoln Mercury.
10:31
SPEAKER_03: And this was we hadn't even got delved into the case files yet.
10:34
SPEAKER_03: This is going from our memory of what we knew through the rumors and speculations of the police department.
10:41
SPEAKER_03: But thinking of, you know, down there at the staples, right?
10:44
SPEAKER_03: That staples has a couple rail lines behind it, but when 71, before 71 was built, that was one of the main rail thoroughfares north-south into Cleveland.
10:56
SPEAKER_03: So I I mean, I knew that from my city geography.
10:59
SPEAKER_03: So we thought, well, maybe she's maybe she's just wrong on where it actually happened, right?
11:04
SPEAKER_03: So that kind of piqued our curiosity to go look for the case files.
11:08
SPEAKER_03: And when I knew, having to been in District Four as a uniform and also as a detective, and four, that there's a whole bunch of homicide, old homicide case files kept in the basement of District Four.
11:18
SPEAKER_03: So we went over there one day and kind of looked for it.
11:21
SPEAKER_03: And all we found was a was a one.
11:24
SPEAKER_03: Do you remember those kind of larger?
11:26
SPEAKER_03: They were kind of like a maroonish-brown case files that had the flaps, uh brown folder they give it.
11:32
SPEAKER_03: And you had the string that you're wrapped around the little button.
11:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and tied it.
11:36
SPEAKER_03: That's all we could find.
11:37
SPEAKER_03: Um, so you know, we kind of took that back and delved into it.
11:41
SPEAKER_03: And there was a couple things in there that was kind of germane to it.
11:45
SPEAKER_03: I don't remember offhand exactly what it was, but um, you know, we kind of looked at it and they go, well, you know, it still doesn't fit.
11:52
SPEAKER_03: So we kind of did two things.
11:54
SPEAKER_03: I said, well, how about if we call up the communications, we put out a teletype of any unsolved homicides of law of a police officer or someone along a rail line from Cincinnati up to you know Columbus through, you know, whatever.
12:08
SPEAKER_02: When you do, let me ask you this.
12:10
SPEAKER_02: When when you do something like that, do you have to get permission?
12:12
SPEAKER_02: Is there a chain of command decision there?
12:14
SPEAKER_02: Or as a as a detective, you just make the call and and do that?
12:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think there will I think there is.
12:20
SPEAKER_03: I don't remember if we did.
12:22
SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, knowing me, I probably just it's better to you know better to do it.
12:26
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if I followed the rules, probably not.
12:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think I think at this point we're kind of working with Joe Priestley, Sergeant Joe Priestley.
12:34
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
12:35
SPEAKER_03: Uh, because by then we had kind of, as I said, I got a case of the ass because I wanted to figure this out.
12:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
12:41
SPEAKER_03: Um, I didn't want to you know put it away.
12:43
SPEAKER_02: It sounds like a bug bit you at one point.
12:45
SPEAKER_02: You you uh have other open cases, but at some point this really got its hooks in you a little bit, it sounds like.
12:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
12:51
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I kind of it's like Kurt used to call me a persistent bastard, you know.
12:56
SPEAKER_03: So good quality for homicide guy, right?
12:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I would I was always persistent.
13:01
SPEAKER_03: I I hate to lose.
13:02
SPEAKER_03: I really hate to lose.
13:03
SPEAKER_03: And maybe that's part of the martial arts background, the self-defense background, because if you lose, you're gonna in martial arts and self-defense, if you lose, you're gonna die.
13:12
SPEAKER_03: Same with a cop.
13:13
SPEAKER_03: You don't want to lose, right?
13:14
SPEAKER_03: So I hate to lose.
13:15
SPEAKER_03: So I I I wanted to solve this or figure out what was going on.
13:18
SPEAKER_03: So that was one of the things we did.
13:20
SPEAKER_03: And you know what we got from that?
13:21
SPEAKER_03: We got a police chief from another jurisdiction calling and yelling at us for doing it.
13:26
SPEAKER_03: What?
13:27
SPEAKER_03: Uh, because that's not what the teletype system is for.
13:29
SPEAKER_03: You know, so you know, okay, click.
13:31
SPEAKER_03: You know, I think we just hung up on him.
13:33
SPEAKER_03: Good.
13:33
SPEAKER_03: So then we got the idea of back to that brown case file.
13:37
SPEAKER_03: We were talking about it, and John, Sergeant John Bordline overheard us in a roll call room down at CIS.
13:43
SPEAKER_03: And he said, Well, you know, there's like five case files upstairs.
13:46
SPEAKER_03: And Bordline was the he was the um in charge of the property room, right?
13:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, property room sorry.
13:51
SPEAKER_03: So we go up there and look, and sure shit, there's like five case files for this case.
13:55
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
13:56
SPEAKER_03: Uh so we pull those and bring those down, and we you know, put them.
14:00
SPEAKER_03: If you remember at CIS at A24 Broadway, we had kind of a conference room/slash break room.
14:05
SPEAKER_03: So we brought those down and put them on the table and started going through them.
14:09
SPEAKER_03: And I remember one of the things that we pulled out was it still had Don Martin's blouse, uniform shirt, and tie bloodstained in these case files.
14:20
SPEAKER_03: So we pulled those out.
14:21
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, we look at them and like Kerlik is like, holy shit, you know, this is like this is what we wear still, you know, because we still wore the white shirts back then, white shirt and white hat.
14:31
SPEAKER_03: All that stuff was in there, along with like a ticket book and all this stuff from his car.
14:37
SPEAKER_03: So, you know, we kind of looked at it and we tried to make some sense of it, and we just couldn't make some any any sense of it as we're looking through it because it was so jumbled.
14:46
SPEAKER_03: You know, obviously through 44 years, stuff would come in through the years and somebody would work it, and then they just kind of dump the crap into the case file and not put it back where it actually belonged.
14:58
SPEAKER_03: And I think, you know, maybe you know, people would just go look at it through the years and you know, not put stuff back where it was.
15:05
SPEAKER_03: So it was just kind of like a, as I say, just a jumbled sack of shit.
15:09
SPEAKER_02: I I don't I was gonna say I don't want to give away the book, the whole book, but in terms of of cases I mean, I don't mind giving away the book.
15:16
SPEAKER_03: I I didn't write it to make money, right?
15:18
SPEAKER_03: So I th I thought Don Larton deserved that.
15:21
SPEAKER_02: How hard how hard was that case compared to to was that your hardest case, especially being a police officer involved?
15:28
SPEAKER_02: Um the years involved 44 years of old evidence that you have to go through, witnesses that have have obviously passed on some.
15:36
SPEAKER_02: Uh what's is there is there joy in that?
15:40
SPEAKER_02: What's the right word that that drives you?
15:43
SPEAKER_02: Is satisfaction the right word?
15:45
SPEAKER_03: Certainly, I guess joy and pride of of having a letter from the prosecutor's office saying the case is solved after doing the work.
15:53
SPEAKER_03: It was aggravating and hard because you couldn't, there was no crime scene to go to.
15:58
SPEAKER_03: Even some of the cold cases that would come in even like two or three years later, you could go back to the crime scene and look at and kind of get an idea of what happened through the detective notes.
16:08
SPEAKER_03: I mean, we we took as detectives, you take extensive notes from the scene.
16:13
SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, we had an investigative log.
16:16
SPEAKER_03: So anytime anybody would do anything on the case, even it wasn't, even if it wasn't my case, I had access to the case file.
16:23
SPEAKER_03: I could go to the investigative log and say that, you know, on such and such a date, so-and-so called in with information.
16:29
SPEAKER_03: Detectives so-and-so and I went out to the scene.
16:31
SPEAKER_03: We looked and um, you know, looked for whatever the person might have said, you know, something like that.
16:37
SPEAKER_03: So we always took extensive notes that even down the line, years down the road, somebody could go into those case files and see that and you know make sense of it.
16:48
SPEAKER_03: We couldn't do that with this case because the stuff was so jumbled.
16:51
SPEAKER_03: I mean, there were some case files in there, there were some notes in there we could read, but you have to remember too that back then, how did people write?
16:58
SPEAKER_03: People wrote in cursive, right?
17:00
SPEAKER_03: So in cursive, it's some sometimes hard to decipher.
17:03
SPEAKER_03: Um no fear of that anymore.
17:07
unknown: Yeah.
17:07
SPEAKER_03: But you know, and even you remember in the in the academy, at least with me in the 75th recruit class, they taught us, they told us to write um block letter, right?
17:17
SPEAKER_03: So that's how we always wrote, uh, I always wrote my notes in block letters.
17:21
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes I might write cursive for some things, but always wrote block letter.
17:26
SPEAKER_03: Um so you can't read the notes very well.
17:28
SPEAKER_03: Um some of the stuff was was, you know, old and torn.
17:33
SPEAKER_03: Um and it it was in the wrong in the wrong spot and just jumbled.
17:38
SPEAKER_03: So that's as I said, that's how I came up with the idea to put the word out to talk to retired cops.
17:44
SPEAKER_03: Um and uh we got lucky with a guy by the name of Jerry Schimpf.
17:47
SPEAKER_03: Jerry Schimpf called in.
17:48
SPEAKER_03: Jerry was back then, he was a Cincinnati police detective.
17:52
SPEAKER_03: He was actually a detective back then.
17:54
SPEAKER_03: There was a detective rank with the police department, and Jerry was a detective.
17:57
SPEAKER_03: Um, he was assigned to the juvenile bureau back then.
18:00
SPEAKER_03: Juvenile Bureau was uh child cases and rapes and things like that.
18:04
SPEAKER_03: Um, so when he was working back in 61, 62, 63 in the juvenile bureau, he was also going to law school at night.
18:12
SPEAKER_03: And when he when he called in, we brought him in, had him come down, and we talked to him, and he tells us the story that how he got involved in the case.
18:20
SPEAKER_03: And it wasn't Frank Murph.
18:22
SPEAKER_03: As I said, uh the parlance in the police department was always Frank Murph for a couple different reasons.
18:27
SPEAKER_03: You know, he tried to take a cop's gun.
18:30
SPEAKER_02: Now let me let me catch up for a second.
18:31
SPEAKER_02: So the lady that called the the case that you were assigned, that original caller that had information, did was Frank Murph who she suggested did this?
18:40
SPEAKER_02: No, she didn't even know who it was her dad, but Frank her dad wasn't Frank Murph.
18:44
SPEAKER_02: It was another person.
18:45
SPEAKER_03: No, it was her husband who had come in.
18:47
SPEAKER_03: Her husband was the one who told her the story about he and a friend.
18:51
SPEAKER_03: Oh, so it was so the friend was Frank Murph.
18:53
SPEAKER_03: No, Frank wasn't even Frank Murph.
18:55
SPEAKER_03: She didn't have a name.
18:56
SPEAKER_03: She didn't even have a name of the second individual.
18:58
SPEAKER_02: You see why I did drug work all those years?
19:01
SPEAKER_02: You see why I was a drug investigator?
19:04
SPEAKER_03: Her husband had told her that that he and another guy, uh and she didn't even know the guy's name.
19:09
SPEAKER_03: Um, I don't even think the husband even told her what the name was.
19:12
SPEAKER_03: Just said he and another guy had shot and killed somebody in the shadows along a rail line.
19:17
SPEAKER_03: So that's why we didn't think it fit Don Martin case.
19:20
SPEAKER_02: The other police officer that's now in law school, you're talking to him about this.
19:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:24
SPEAKER_03: So Jerry Schimff, he kind of got involved in this case back then because he was coming out of law school downtown and sees a guy who is the brother of a suspect he has a warrant on for a child rape.
19:39
SPEAKER_03: So he sees a guy go into a diner downtown.
19:43
SPEAKER_03: So Jerry follows him into the diner, sits in a booth across from him, and says, Hey, I'm looking for your brother.
19:49
SPEAKER_03: And the guy says, How do you know I don't have a gun underneath the table?
19:52
SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna shoot you.
19:53
SPEAKER_03: And Jerry says, Well, how do you look underneath the table?
19:55
SPEAKER_03: So Jerry says, the guy looks underneath the table and Jerry had his revolver out pointed at the guy's stomach.
20:00
SPEAKER_03: And these guys, Jerry says, the guy kind of looks up at him, kind of smiles, and says, Well, how about if I tell you about uh information about a cop killing?
20:09
SPEAKER_02: Come on, dude.
20:10
SPEAKER_02: This that's a scene from a hot movie, man.
20:13
SPEAKER_02: What?
20:14
SPEAKER_02: He says, What who who says that to a police officer?
20:17
SPEAKER_02: What if I got what if I have a gun under the table pointed at you?
20:20
SPEAKER_02: Really?
20:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I guess things were different back in 63.
20:23
SPEAKER_02: There you go.
20:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
20:24
SPEAKER_03: He starts telling Jerry this information about Walter Baker Walls killing a cop.
20:30
SPEAKER_03: He says that Walter Baker Walls was trying to break in, was trying to steal a battery from a car at a car dealership on Reading Road.
20:38
SPEAKER_03: He was confronted by a cop.
20:39
SPEAKER_03: And then he says that uh the fight ensues and he's able to get the cop's gun and he shot and killed the cop.
20:46
SPEAKER_03: So Jerry says, based on what he knew from that case, he goes, This has to be good information.
20:51
SPEAKER_03: So he goes and tells Detective uh Will Stagenhorse, who is a lead on that.
20:57
SPEAKER_03: Based on that, they develop Walter Baker Walls as a suspect.
21:00
SPEAKER_03: And they find out that Walter Baker Walls is locked up in the Ohio Penitentiary or a bunch of other stuff.
21:06
SPEAKER_03: Um so they backtrack and track down the four witnesses who were who were interviewed at the time of the case.
21:13
SPEAKER_03: So there were four kids, college kids or late teens, early 20 kids coming up Reading Road.
21:19
SPEAKER_03: Um they were coming from Newport.
21:21
SPEAKER_03: They had gone to the casinos, the you know, under-the-table casinos in Newport.
21:27
SPEAKER_03: So Newport back in the day was run by the Newport mob, um, which was kind of affiliated with the Cleveland mob, and they had a bunch of, you know, underground casinos.
21:37
SPEAKER_03: So these kids were going to the casinos in Newport, and they're on their way back up Reading Road to go back to Dayton where they live.
21:44
SPEAKER_03: And so Dayton was, you know, one of the main thoroughfares to go back up that way.
21:48
SPEAKER_03: And they hear shots and they look over to their right as they're going north in Reading, and they see a cop being chased by somebody with a pistol or with a gun firing shots at the cop.
22:00
SPEAKER_03: They see the cop go down and they see a dude standing at the top of the cop and firing one last shot at him.
22:06
SPEAKER_03: Well, they slow down and see this.
22:08
SPEAKER_03: Well, then they see the guy see them and he comes running toward them.
22:12
SPEAKER_03: So they start going up the street and start to turn around and they hear another gunshot and boom, it goes through their back window.
22:20
SPEAKER_03: So they decide they're not going to turn around.
22:22
SPEAKER_03: They go look for a phone, they call the cops.
22:25
SPEAKER_03: And then they go back down around.
22:27
SPEAKER_03: So by the time they get down there, they see the shooter run across Reading Road toward a street called Dandridge.
22:34
SPEAKER_03: So he's going running westbound and goes up Dandridge.
22:38
SPEAKER_02: You getting all are you getting all of these, all of this information from the detective notes?
22:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we're getting this all from Jerry now, from Jerry Schiff.
22:46
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
22:46
SPEAKER_03: So he tells us all this stuff.
22:48
SPEAKER_03: So he and Will Stagenhorse go back and work this and they go back and reinterview the witnesses and they get those witnesses to go up to the Ohio Penitentiary.
22:59
SPEAKER_03: And they they make arrangements with the prison up there to bring these four kids in the hallway in opposite directions of uh Walter Baker Walls.
23:11
SPEAKER_03: So they kind of walk them in the prison, uh kind of coming toward Walter Baker Walls and then away to try to get an identification.
23:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
23:20
SPEAKER_03: Well, at the time, the kids say, Yeah, well, that kind of looks like the guy we saw, but they can't say for certain.
23:26
SPEAKER_03: So they put also during this time, they put Walter Walls on a polygraph.
23:31
SPEAKER_03: And I was able to track down through a source of mine, a friend of mine who was uh an investigator, a detective with OSP.
23:39
SPEAKER_03: I was able to find the original polygraph results of Walter Baker Walls, and Walls failed the polygraph.
23:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, not admissible.
23:47
SPEAKER_03: At the time, he failed a polygraph about his knowledge of Don Martin killing.
23:51
SPEAKER_03: Back then they put him on on the polygraph.
23:53
SPEAKER_03: He fails it, but there's still not enough to charge Walter Baker Walls at the time.
23:58
SPEAKER_03: And I guess this is around 1963 when this is when this happens.
24:02
SPEAKER_03: And then as I said, from 61 to 63 and on, it became the theory of the police department that it was this guy by the name of Frank Murph.
24:11
SPEAKER_03: Because, as I said prior, Frank Murph had tried to take another cop's gun a month after uh Don Martin was killed.
24:17
SPEAKER_03: But also forensically, so back then they saw him run westbound up Dange, and that ends up going up into Mount Auburn, right?
24:26
SPEAKER_03: Dandridge is still there, but the streets that it took to get up there is gone.
24:29
SPEAKER_03: They end up finding it uh a trash can up there, and they find a shirt, a plaid shirt and Don Martin's gun wrapped in the plaid shirt, wrapped in the plaid shirt, dumped in a trash can.
24:40
SPEAKER_03: Well, the police department gets a hold of the FBI, and sorry to my FBI friends out there, but as soon as the FBI gets involved in the case, it's usually you can bleep this out, right?
24:50
SPEAKER_03: But I'm gonna say it's usually fine.
24:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, contrary to the reputation, yeah.
24:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so the FBI, they send that shirt off to the FBI, and they find a back then, the terms that were used, they found they find a negroid hair in the pocket of the shirt.
25:06
SPEAKER_03: So Frank Murph was African American.
25:09
SPEAKER_03: Uh, they find a negroid hair.
25:11
SPEAKER_03: Frank Murph tried to take another cop's gun.
25:13
SPEAKER_03: Frank Murphy ain't killed.
25:14
SPEAKER_03: I think I can't remember if in 1963.
25:17
SPEAKER_03: I got in the notes, files in this when Murph was killed.
25:20
SPEAKER_03: But he was killed in Legary, Indiana, as I said, for trying to uh take another cop's gun.
25:25
SPEAKER_03: So that's how Frank Murph then becomes the theory and uh folklore in the Cincinnati Police Department as the killer of Don Martin.
25:34
SPEAKER_02: Well, let me well well let me let me stop you there and ask you this.
25:37
SPEAKER_02: Everybody kind of, based on his past reputation, had him as potentially the suspect.
25:42
SPEAKER_02: If he had been arrested, in your estimation, immediately, maybe even after the Indiana incident, where he's trying to take a cop's gun and all that, would he have do you suspect he would have gone ahead and been arrested, sent to prison, and he didn't do it?
25:55
SPEAKER_02: It was the guy that ultimately your legwork and and and cold case expertise ended up finding out who their true killer is.
26:02
SPEAKER_03: Um, I I don't know.
26:03
SPEAKER_03: I mean, looking back at it from 44 years, I don't know, I don't know what will what Will Stegenhorse actually had.
26:10
SPEAKER_03: So I also tracked down uh Stegenhorse's son.
26:13
SPEAKER_03: Stegenhorse supposedly kept extensive notes too.
26:16
SPEAKER_03: And he took a lot.
26:18
SPEAKER_03: I also found out too that from Jerry that Stegenhorse took a lot of the case files home with him and he kept them at home.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: Um is that good, bad?
26:26
SPEAKER_02: Is that you're not supposed to do that, or is that okay?
26:28
SPEAKER_03: I I don't know back then.
26:30
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I was you weren't supposed to do it.
26:32
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I always kept I always kept extensive notes too.
26:35
SPEAKER_03: And I mean, I'll I would I'm still to this day.
26:38
SPEAKER_03: I think more's better, right?
26:39
SPEAKER_03: I keep I'm redundant.
26:41
SPEAKER_03: I'm all into redundancy.
26:42
SPEAKER_03: So I keep notes, I keep files, I put them in different places.
26:46
SPEAKER_03: You know, online files, I keep them in a couple different.
26:49
SPEAKER_03: So that's so that's common.
26:50
SPEAKER_02: It's not, it's not crazy unusual.
26:52
SPEAKER_02: Gotcha.
26:53
SPEAKER_03: So, but I mean, I don't take the original files, I take copies, right?
26:57
SPEAKER_03: Copy.
26:57
SPEAKER_03: Now, according to what Jerry said, Stegenhorse took the original files.
27:02
SPEAKER_03: So when I had found this out, I called, I tracked down uh Stegenhorst's son Ron and talked to him.
27:09
SPEAKER_03: And he goes, Yeah, they were we had he had a whole bunch of files in the basement, but when he when he passed away, we threw him away.
27:17
SPEAKER_03: And he had passed away like 10 years prior to this or something.
27:20
SPEAKER_03: I mean, years prior to this.
27:22
SPEAKER_03: So those case files were gone.
27:23
SPEAKER_03: So I don't know exactly what Will Stegenhorse had.
27:27
SPEAKER_03: If he thought he could have made the case, I don't think from now if they would have gotten a search warrant and got hair and it matched hair or hair from Frank Murph and it matched the hair in the pocket of the shirt, then yeah, maybe then he got something.
27:41
SPEAKER_03: But you know, there were one of the problems with this shirt, no one really did laundry back then.
27:46
SPEAKER_03: Everyone took their shirts to laundry services.
27:48
SPEAKER_03: There was a whole bunch of laundry tags on the shirt.
27:51
SPEAKER_03: We even did, I even tried, we even tried to see if we could find where this laundry tag went to back in the day.
28:01
SPEAKER_03: As a way to come up with witnesses and stuff, too, uh, to find out who the shirt belonged to, if we could put it to Walt uh Walter Walls, if he took his shirts to that.
28:10
SPEAKER_03: But that ended up coming into farther down the road when we start talking to family members, how Walter got that shirt.
28:17
SPEAKER_03: You know, I to answer that question, there's always a possibility.
28:20
SPEAKER_03: I mean, you don't you never know what a jury could do.
28:23
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
28:23
SPEAKER_03: They could have they charged them.
28:25
SPEAKER_03: I don't know what uh what evidence they had.
28:27
SPEAKER_03: Forensically, there wasn't a whole lot that was done back then because they just didn't have forensic evidence.
28:32
SPEAKER_03: One of the things that they did, they found the route that that the shooter had taken.
28:38
SPEAKER_03: The shooter still had his gun, Martin's gun in his hand.
28:42
SPEAKER_03: And he was running down a hill and he slipped.
28:46
SPEAKER_03: And there was an imprint of a barrel of a gun into the hill that the suspect was running down.
28:53
SPEAKER_03: Holy shit.
28:54
SPEAKER_03: So they had there was an imprint.
28:55
SPEAKER_03: What they did is they took like rubber and poured it into the hole to see if it was a match to Don Martin's gun.
29:03
SPEAKER_03: So, and it was also, they also dusted Martin's gun for fingerprints, and there were some latent fingerprints, but there wasn't enough to identify.
29:10
SPEAKER_03: And I even sent those fingerprints off to the FBI lab comparative to Walter Walls' fingerprints.
29:16
SPEAKER_03: I was able to get, and it it still they couldn't, there wasn't enough to identify Walter Walls as you know, his fingerprint on the gun.
29:24
SPEAKER_03: Um, one of the other things we did during the case is we got information that the Secret Service uh were was able to dip clothing into like a gold, uh like a gold dust mixture and get latent fingerprints off of cloth.
29:37
SPEAKER_03: So we sent Don Martin's.
29:39
SPEAKER_03: We even sent Don Martin's uh blouse off to see if they can get something from that and nothing.
29:44
SPEAKER_03: So, I mean, we even tried some forensic stuff that we had available in 2005-2006 that wasn't available back then as a way to come up with a suspect or even put Walter Walls as the shooter because we weren't even convinced Walter Walls was a shooter and we're working a case.
30:01
SPEAKER_03: Again, let me go back in the direction and we're kind of backtracking.
30:05
SPEAKER_03: So once we talk to Jerry and we get Walter Baker Walls, like, well, you know, Jerry thinks he's a suspect, so kind of let's work that angle, keeping in mind we'll do some forensic stuff as a part of, you know, the fingertip of the investigation.
30:17
SPEAKER_03: So I run Walter Walls and I find out that he's got a warrant for domestic violence.
30:23
SPEAKER_03: I pull the warrant, find out it's a woman by the name of Anna Dove, track her down, and we go, Kurt and I go talk to her.
30:30
SPEAKER_03: We knock on the door, say I'm Detective Cher, Detective Ballman with Sensei homicide.
30:35
SPEAKER_03: Can we talk to you?
30:35
SPEAKER_03: And first thing out of her mouth is this isn't about my dad killing a cop, is it?
30:39
SPEAKER_03: You know, in my mind, wow ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
30:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's a clue.
30:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so that's even the FBI says that's a clue, right?
30:47
SPEAKER_03: So um we bring her into uh the office and interview her, and she tells us that Walter Walls is her father, and the warrant on her against the warrant against him is on her from a previous time that uh he, you know, shot at her.
31:04
SPEAKER_06: Oh, goodness.
31:05
SPEAKER_06: He sounds like a nice guy, doesn't he?
31:07
SPEAKER_03: Not so much.
31:08
SPEAKER_03: So she also tells us that Walter Baker Walls was involved in shooting and killing her mother.
31:15
SPEAKER_03: Uh Walter Walls had a girlfriend at the time named Brenda Ayers, and Walter, uh Walter um lures her mother to an alley, and Brenda Ayers uh shoots and kills her.
31:26
SPEAKER_03: So Brenda Ayres is caught ultimately back then.
31:30
SPEAKER_03: This was like 1968.
31:31
SPEAKER_03: He is caught back then, um, as well as Brenda, and he is charged with uh the murder of Anna Dub's mom.
31:39
SPEAKER_03: Brenda Ayres goes to the penitentiary for it, but Walter gets off.
31:43
SPEAKER_03: I was able to track down Brenda Ayers and speak with her as well.
31:46
SPEAKER_03: Oh, wow.
31:47
SPEAKER_03: So she tells us all the story about all this stuff that that uh he has done, and he tracks um Anna down at one point, grabs her, takes her down an alleyway, pulls a gun on her, holds it to her head, and says, If you can ever tell anyone, I can kill you like I killed that cop.
32:08
SPEAKER_03: So that's one of the domestic violence warrants on Walter with Anna as the um victim.
32:14
SPEAKER_03: And there's all this stuff she tells us.
32:16
SPEAKER_03: We track down all these other uh family members, and they start telling us all the stories.
32:21
SPEAKER_03: And we're kind of wondering why they're telling us, why they're if they're not afraid now, we find out that Walter is now dead.
32:27
SPEAKER_03: So that's why these people are starting to come forward and tell the story of what Walter did.
32:32
SPEAKER_02: And you're convinced that he's he's the shooter.
32:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, now at this at this point too, we also track down another another family member who tells us that Walter wasn't exactly um, you know, Walter's family at the time wasn't very well off, and that he and his family would give uh Walter, he was the cousins with Walter, and he would give Walter's family um clothing.
32:55
SPEAKER_03: And he gave Walter at one point a plaid shirt.
32:59
SPEAKER_03: And um, we showed him a picture of the plaid shirt, and he goes, Yeah, that was a shirt that I used to wear that we gave to Walter.
33:05
SPEAKER_03: So we were able to print, we were able to put that shirt that was dumped in the trash can as to a shirt that was owned by Walter Walls.
33:15
SPEAKER_02: Holy cow.
33:16
SPEAKER_02: You just recounted such a beautiful piece of police work and a lot of moving parts and different pieces of this puzzle in different places, different, you know, involved in different witnesses and actu actually actors uh with Walter.
33:31
SPEAKER_02: What kind of recognition did you get for that?
33:33
SPEAKER_02: I know you didn't do it, I know you don't do it for that, but did you get some kind of notation in your personnel file for doing all this great work?
33:44
SPEAKER_03: We were nominated for the uh the HCPA award uh for um I guess it's the original.
33:51
SPEAKER_03: We used to we kind of used to call it uh you know, investigator of the year.
33:54
SPEAKER_03: It's um I think it might still be the same thing.
33:56
SPEAKER_03: It's called the uh Hamilton County Law Enforcement Association Appreciation Achievement Award.
34:02
SPEAKER_03: Best overall investigative job leading to solution of a crime.
34:07
SPEAKER_03: And then we got a couple other FOPE awards and FOPA awards.
34:10
SPEAKER_02: So you so you got some recognition.
34:12
SPEAKER_02: Hey Jeff, let me let me ask you, had you had Walter been alive, what do you think the case, how how do you think that case would have gone for you guys?
34:22
SPEAKER_02: Because you it sounds to me you put a b a lot of witnesses together at the end and uh and and you did all that legwork to kind of establish him at the scene, maybe, especially with the shirt at the end.
34:35
SPEAKER_02: How how successful would you would you would you have been in a po in a prosecution there?
34:40
SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, well, so what what you do when when we make an arrest on homicide, we have to put what we refer to as a book together to give to the prosecutor.
34:49
SPEAKER_03: Um and part of that is a summary.
34:51
SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, I wrote a summary of the investigation, of you know, laid out how we came about this investigation, much the same as I did in the book.
34:58
SPEAKER_03: So the book is basically a longer version of a summary I wrote for the prosecutor's office, you know, because it's called a summary, right?
35:06
SPEAKER_03: So I didn't go into as much detail as I do in the book and what we did.
35:10
SPEAKER_03: Obviously, I've gone in more detail with you guys than I did in that summary, but we do the summary, you put together witness statements, you know, if it's a recorded statement, the statements are transcribed, all that kind of stuff, anything forensic, all that goes in the murder book that's uh categorized and indexed and all that.
35:27
SPEAKER_03: We send it over.
35:28
SPEAKER_03: The prosecutor looks at it.
35:29
SPEAKER_03: And uh Joe Dieters of the prosecutor at the time had read wrote a letter to us saying that uh, you know, basically if Walter Baker Walls was alive, he would certainly been, he would certainly have been indicted more than more than um certainly uh found guilty by a jury of his peers.
35:46
SPEAKER_03: So you can close the case out, you know, death of the offender.
35:49
SPEAKER_03: So we were able to get confirmation through the prosecutor's office that Walter Baker Walls was most likely the uh killer of Don Martin.
35:58
SPEAKER_02: Can you give us the title of your book again and how we can get our hands on it?
36:02
SPEAKER_03: It's Shots Fired on Reading Road.
36:05
SPEAKER_03: It is the subtitle of that is the murder of uh Cincinnati Patrolman Donald Martin and 40, 40 year search for his killer.
36:13
SPEAKER_03: It's available on Barnes and Noble, uh, Amazon right now, and hopefully Joseph Beth and a few other ones will pick it up through uh a third-party distributor that I'm working with.
36:22
SPEAKER_05: The Doc and Carolyn Podcast!
36:25
SPEAKER_03: The Doc and Carolyn Podcast.
36:26
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37:20
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to this Kingdom Minute with your host, Kimberly Blakes on the Doc and Carolyn Podcast.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: So here's something I've noticed.
37:27
SPEAKER_00: When I post something positive that President Trump has done, and he's done a lot of positive things in these 300-something days, a lot of you guys will get in the comments and say everything that you are not seeing, and that the gas is still expensive and everything else.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: Now you don't care about the fact that when Joe Biden was in office, everything was much higher, and you are not comparing the two presidents.
37:46
SPEAKER_00: It takes a real leader to say, this is what's best for the country, this is what it's gonna be best for the country in the next 15, 20, 30 years.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: You're not thinking ahead because you don't have generational in your mindset.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: God thinks generational, and when he chooses the leader, he chooses the leader that looks at the big picture, the whole thing, and that is thinking in terms of future, not right now.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for tuning in to this Kingdom Minute with your host, Kimberly Blakes, on the Doc and Carolyn podcast.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: You can find me on Facebook at Kimberly Blakes, and I also have a podcast called The Faith Frame Perspective.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: I'll see you guys there.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: The revelation to John.
38:26
SPEAKER_01: Chapter 10.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, with a rainbow over his head, and his face was like the sun, and his legs like pillars of fire.
38:41
SPEAKER_01: He had a little scroll open in his hand, and he set his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, and called out with a loud voice, like a lion roaring, when he called out, the seven thunders sounded.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: And when the seven thunders had sounded, I was about to write, but I heard a voice from heaven saying, Seal up what the seven thunders have said, and do not write it down.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land, raised his right hand to heaven and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay, but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the misery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me again, saying, Go, take the scroll that is open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: So I went to the angel and told him to give me the little scroll, and he said to me, Take and eat it.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: It will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet as honey.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: And I took the little scroll from the hand of the angel and ate it.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: It was sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter, and I was told, You must again prophesy about many peoples and nations and languages and kings.
40:24
SPEAKER_02: The doc and Carolyn podcast has brought you in part of my exclusions.