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THE QUICKENING: Discovering New Life Within · This Jungian Life Podcast

0:02
Speaker 1: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
0:06
Speaker 1: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
0:10
Speaker 1: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
0:14
Speaker 1: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
0:19
Speaker 2: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
0:23
Speaker 3: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
0:28
Speaker 4: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst in Cape Cod.
0:43
Speaker 2: The three of us published a book that came out
0:45
Speaker 2: in November of 2024 called Dreamwise, Unlocking the Meaning of
0:49
Speaker 2: Your Dreams. And as part of our continued oneironautical explorations....
0:56
Speaker 4: Onei... oneiography, Lisa? Help me out here.
1:00
Speaker 2: I'm not even sure. Oneironography?
1:03
Speaker 4: Right, the study of dreams. For those of you who,
1:07
Speaker 4: like me, may not be familiar with the word.
1:10
Speaker 2: We, from time to time... take a look at a
1:14
Speaker 2: particular dream symbol. And this time, we're looking at dreams
1:20
Speaker 2: of pregnancy and babies. So lots of people have dreams
1:24
Speaker 2: either where they're pregnant or someone close to them is
1:27
Speaker 2: pregnant or there's a baby in the dream. Very, very common.
1:31
Speaker 2: And so we wanted to look at some of the
1:33
Speaker 2: ways that this shows up in dreams. And of course,
1:37
Speaker 2: if you want to learn more, you can check out
1:39
Speaker 2: our book, DreamWise.
1:42
Speaker 3: Listeners, Are you interested in Jung in a very deep
1:47
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1:52
Speaker 3: calling inside of you, that there is a path to
1:56
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2:03
Speaker 3: about Jungian thought. The three of us trained at the
2:07
Speaker 3: Philadelphia Association for Jungian Analysts in downtown Philadelphia It was
2:14
Speaker 3: a great time for all three of us, but we
2:17
Speaker 3: became lifelong friends and with many of the other analysts
2:21
Speaker 3: in training, as well as people from all walks of
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Speaker 3: life who find Jungian work important and enlivening. The organization
2:32
Speaker 3: is now accepting applicants for their next semester of Jungian studies.
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Speaker 2: The Philadelphia Young Seminar meets eight times a year, four
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2:44
Speaker 2: for a weekend a month. And we're really excited to
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3:19
Speaker 3: So, babies. Babies as symbol, baby as archetype, pregnancy as
3:27
Speaker 3: symbol and archetype. And sometimes one of the struggles around
3:34
Speaker 3: interpreting the symbol of the baby is that It's so polyvalent.
3:39
Speaker 3: There are so many potentials that can be inferred by
3:45
Speaker 3: the image of a baby, but they tend to center
3:49
Speaker 3: around this idea of the new, the potential, the nascent
3:54
Speaker 3: form of something that has gone from the mysterious unconscious,
4:00
Speaker 3: and it's coming into your hands as a knowable content,
4:05
Speaker 3: or at least the start of that.
4:07
Speaker 4: Yeah. And fairy tales, religious images, mythology have, as I
4:15
Speaker 4: think we all know, long used the symbol of the
4:18
Speaker 4: baby as a symbol of something new entering the psyche.
4:24
Speaker 4: There's the baby Buddha and the baby Moses and the
4:27
Speaker 4: baby Jesus, and the list goes on and on. So
4:33
Speaker 4: it's a huge symbol in the psyche.
4:36
Speaker 2: And, you know, one of the things that we've been
4:37
Speaker 2: doing with this dreamography project is collecting lots of dreams
4:42
Speaker 2: from you. And then we have sort of a bank
4:45
Speaker 2: of different ways that this symbol appears. And I think
4:48
Speaker 2: you're right, Joseph. I was really struck this month by
4:52
Speaker 2: the very different ways that the image comes out in dreams.
4:57
Speaker 2: And I think it centers around this idea of new life,
5:02
Speaker 2: new possibility. something young in the psyche perhaps, but it
5:07
Speaker 2: sure does turn up different ways. So we have some
5:11
Speaker 2: dreams that more relate to pregnancy and some dreams that
5:14
Speaker 2: more relate to babies. They're obviously closely related archetypes or images,
5:20
Speaker 2: but let's just think about pregnancy for a moment. What
5:25
Speaker 2: does it mean to be pregnant as an archetypal experience, right?
5:30
Speaker 2: We're not We're interested in it, and you'll see this
5:33
Speaker 2: in the dreams when we go there. But, you know,
5:37
Speaker 2: what is the archetype of pregnancy?
5:40
Speaker 3: Well, one question that we could ask if that was
5:44
Speaker 3: in a dream is, what is gestating? And by that
5:47
Speaker 3: I mean, what is in the process of becoming, but
5:52
Speaker 3: yet is still shrouded, is still mysterious? The hidden, ripening capacity.
6:01
Speaker 3: So that could be an attitude, it could be a
6:04
Speaker 3: realization that's breaking upon you, it could be an aspect
6:08
Speaker 3: of your personality, a trait that's not quite ready to
6:13
Speaker 3: really come right out in front, but it's gaining steam
6:18
Speaker 3: in the background in some way, and that the fetus
6:22
Speaker 3: also requires silence, darkness, stillness in some regard as it's
6:29
Speaker 3: gathering resources, as it's coming closer to an independent reality.
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Speaker 4: Yeah. I often think of pregnancy, literal physical pregnancy and
6:43
Speaker 4: metaphorical pregnancy, and the animals I've seen who are pregnant
6:50
Speaker 4: as a state of being disturbed. Something is growing and
6:55
Speaker 4: something is happening. We feel the fetus move inside us
7:00
Speaker 4: if we are the one who is pregnant. We feel
7:02
Speaker 4: the animal pacing around, preparing a place to give birth.
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Speaker 4: We know for sure that something is happening, but we
7:13
Speaker 4: don't know what. There is activity. There can be a
7:19
Speaker 4: whole range of feelings about the state of pregnancy. but
7:24
Speaker 4: there is both a knowing and a not knowing. And
7:29
Speaker 4: that holding the tension of in between the two is
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Speaker 4: a disturbance. Just like throwing a stone into a pond,
7:37
Speaker 4: it disturbs the waters. It's just something different, something known
7:41
Speaker 4: and not known.
7:42
Speaker 2: That's really interesting what both of you have just said.
7:46
Speaker 2: And one of the things that it brought up for
7:48
Speaker 2: me is this idea that it is something that starts, Joseph,
7:53
Speaker 2: as you said, sort of in the darkness and within.
7:55
Speaker 2: And it actually literally starts in the unconscious, right? Because
7:59
Speaker 2: for most of us, you know, when we get pregnant,
8:02
Speaker 2: we don't know we're pregnant. So this tremendous thing has
8:07
Speaker 2: happened outside of any conscious awareness. And the baby begins,
8:13
Speaker 2: the fetus begins to grow, the cells divide. And again,
8:16
Speaker 2: not something we're consciously aware of. And only slowly do
8:22
Speaker 2: we become aware of it. You know, these days we're
8:24
Speaker 2: able to become aware of it much earlier.
8:27
Speaker 3: But it is hidden.
8:29
Speaker 2: It is a cult in that sense. It is a
8:32
Speaker 2: growth that is not yet known even to us in
8:36
Speaker 2: the beginning. I can remember when I was pregnant with
8:41
Speaker 2: my first child, I was working and I wasn't showing really.
8:46
Speaker 2: But I remember being in a staff meeting and getting
8:49
Speaker 2: up and walking across the room and a fellow female
8:53
Speaker 2: colleague went, because she saw, you know, and it was
8:58
Speaker 2: that moment that it first became visible. But it's a
9:01
Speaker 2: very interesting experience to know you're pregnant. And I hadn't
9:05
Speaker 2: shared it yet, you know, with anyone, you know, in
9:09
Speaker 2: my professional life. So that was an interesting moment, you know,
9:13
Speaker 2: when the new thing becomes visible.
9:16
Speaker 3: And visible to others. I mean, visible to oneself is
9:21
Speaker 3: one domain, and then when the collective turns its eye
9:25
Speaker 3: to you and changes how it perceives you, because it
9:30
Speaker 3: knows that you are pregnant with potential.
9:35
Speaker 4: And as the baby grows within, there is still that...
9:41
Speaker 4: known and not known. Here is something that is actually
9:45
Speaker 4: happening inside me with kicking and a huge belly and
9:50
Speaker 4: all the rest of all the stuff that every woman
9:53
Speaker 4: is familiar with who's ever been pregnant and not known.
9:58
Speaker 4: And I remember when I actually delivered, how surprised I
10:06
Speaker 4: was that there was a baby. There was some moment
10:12
Speaker 4: of revelation of, oh my God. So I think this
10:17
Speaker 4: is just, we're talking about how big it is in
10:20
Speaker 4: personal life, physical experience, and symbolically.
10:25
Speaker 2: Well, I'm thinking, Deb, I like that you just said that,
10:27
Speaker 2: you know, that sure, notionally, you've bought all this stuff,
10:30
Speaker 2: you've been having dreams about the baby, you've, you know,
10:34
Speaker 2: made plans to leave work or whatever you've done, but
10:37
Speaker 2: somehow it is a shock that like, oh my God,
10:39
Speaker 2: there's a baby, you know, and it's that moment that
10:42
Speaker 2: made me think about the very important role that pregnancy
10:46
Speaker 2: and childbirth plays in the Christian myth, you know, that
10:50
Speaker 2: Mary's pregnant and there's no room at the inn and
10:54
Speaker 2: they're traveling and then there's a baby. And it is
10:57
Speaker 2: a moment of revelation and it is a moment of incarnation.
11:04
Speaker 2: It is a moment of spirit made matter. And that's
11:08
Speaker 2: why I think it hits us so hard. Again, I'm
11:10
Speaker 2: speaking about it, obviously pinging off personal lived experience. But
11:14
Speaker 2: thinking about that archetypally, when something is, say, an idea
11:21
Speaker 2: or an impulse, and it just states for a while,
11:29
Speaker 2: perhaps in darkness, perhaps in a state of semi-unconsciousness, but
11:34
Speaker 2: then one day something happens and And it's out in
11:38
Speaker 2: the world. You know, there's something tremendous about having an
11:42
Speaker 2: idea that then becomes something in the world. And you
11:47
Speaker 2: can think about any number of things that you or
11:50
Speaker 2: listeners may have done. Perhaps you imagined buying a house
11:56
Speaker 2: and it was just an idea and then you made
11:58
Speaker 2: it happen and now you have a house. Or perhaps
12:02
Speaker 2: you had an idea to have a podcast. And then
12:06
Speaker 2: went and did it. And then you have a podcast.
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Speaker 2: It's anything that we do pretty much begins with an idea,
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Speaker 2: maybe even begins with an imagination and begins with an image.
12:19
Speaker 2: And then if we allow it to gestate and it's
12:22
Speaker 2: meant to be birthed, not every idea is, then we
12:25
Speaker 2: have something in the world. And it's that moment of, wow,
12:30
Speaker 2: this became something real in the world.
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Speaker 3: And coming back to the pregnancy, that to become pregnant
12:40
Speaker 3: with anything, with a concept, with a baby, with a
12:45
Speaker 3: new trait, it makes demands upon the body of the psyche.
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Speaker 3: And with the seeding process or with the quickening internal process,
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Speaker 3: there immediately becomes a conflict between an inner process and
13:04
Speaker 3: outer demands. Because there is something about the gestation that
13:11
Speaker 3: awakens an instinct for introversion that puts us at odds
13:17
Speaker 3: with the demand for outer activity. So it takes energy.
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Speaker 3: Energy is taken from other things and begins to circle
13:27
Speaker 3: around the new idea or the new trait. And sometimes
13:31
Speaker 3: people will have dreams where, for instance, a pregnant woman
13:37
Speaker 3: may have dreams where cowboys are assaulting a pregnant woman.
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Speaker 3: And von Franz interpreted a dream like this in one
13:46
Speaker 3: of her texts and says that the woman's own repressed
13:51
Speaker 3: drives towards action and autonomy are now in conflict with
13:56
Speaker 3: this archetypally activated condition. So there is this tension between
14:03
Speaker 3: the life that I was leading out there in the
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Speaker 3: world and now this call to brood and be still
14:10
Speaker 3: and to muse over the potential. And that's natural to
14:15
Speaker 3: have that competition of interest because we only have so
14:19
Speaker 3: much energy. And so that's something that is getting worked
14:23
Speaker 3: around and worked out in the gestating dynamic.
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Speaker 4: It's a great example of how the unconscious, as Jung
14:35
Speaker 4: says over and over, has its own direction and its
14:39
Speaker 4: own autonomy and its own energy. That literal physical baby
14:46
Speaker 4: or an idea, a metaphorical baby, kind of takes us
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Speaker 4: over as pregnancy does. It starts very silently and And
14:58
Speaker 4: then by the end, it's very big and demanding. And
15:03
Speaker 4: when we give birth to it, it has its own life.
15:07
Speaker 4: And we're not totally in charge. Our egos and what
15:11
Speaker 4: we feel like doing today is not what's going to
15:14
Speaker 4: govern the process. We are enlisted in service to something greater.
15:24
Speaker 3: And I think artists really feel this. When they're gestating
15:27
Speaker 3: a new art piece, they might be quiet. They may
15:30
Speaker 3: not actually act in their medium for days or weeks
15:35
Speaker 3: or months as they ponder the thing that's trying to
15:40
Speaker 3: come together in their imagination, which then introduces, I think,
15:44
Speaker 3: the archetype of containment. Because the uterus literally, but also psychospiritually,
15:53
Speaker 3: is a very special kind of alchemical vase, which sometimes
16:00
Speaker 3: can show up in the dream as a cave, going
16:03
Speaker 3: into the cave, and that certain things can only happen
16:07
Speaker 3: in the cave or underwater. And so we'll discover that
16:14
Speaker 3: we need a place for the new thing to be nourished,
16:18
Speaker 3: where the water of life has access to the seed
16:25
Speaker 3: desire the quickening image inside the psyche.
16:30
Speaker 2: You know there's uh there's a great book that came
16:32
Speaker 2: out some number of years ago called dream child creation
16:36
Speaker 2: and new life and dreams of pregnant women and uh
16:40
Speaker 2: written by a union analyst who collected dreams of women
16:43
Speaker 2: who were pregnant And then she looks at some of this,
16:47
Speaker 2: and I think those dreams really pick up many of
16:50
Speaker 2: the themes that we've been discussing about this.
16:54
Speaker 3: So in addition to the containment, one of the things
16:58
Speaker 3: that we know in the outer world is that when
17:01
Speaker 3: a woman is pregnant, when the seed quickens, this enormous
17:07
Speaker 3: transformation happens inside of the woman herself. And if we
17:12
Speaker 3: extrapolate that to an archetype, We could say that when
17:17
Speaker 3: the seed idea quickens in any person's psyche, that the
17:23
Speaker 3: entire personality begins to change to accommodate the gestating process.
17:31
Speaker 3: And I'm sure, Deb, Lisa, you can speak to the
17:35
Speaker 3: remarkable changes that just get set in motion.
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Speaker 4: Yes, whether you will or not. It has its own process,
17:45
Speaker 4: its own life that is one's own life and not
17:51
Speaker 4: at all one's own life. And it's very much like
17:56
Speaker 4: an idea and very much, you know, we haven't mentioned
18:01
Speaker 4: the archetype of the self, the capital S self, but
18:07
Speaker 4: that there is something else inside. in me, of me,
18:11
Speaker 4: and not at all mine, that has its own direction
18:16
Speaker 4: and will take us, we hope, to completion and the
18:22
Speaker 4: healthy birth of something new, whether a physical baby, a project,
18:29
Speaker 4: some event in the psyche. It's a great metaphor. It's
18:33
Speaker 4: very human. We all get it. And it happens... I
18:39
Speaker 4: hope it happens in and for everyone in some way.
18:43
Speaker 3: So turning again to von Franz, in her writings on
18:49
Speaker 3: the Aurora Consurgence, which is a very dense alchemical treatise,
18:56
Speaker 3: she introduces the baby, the thing that emerges as connected
19:03
Speaker 3: to the self, the true personality in its nascent form.
19:09
Speaker 3: And she brings forward this wonderful term, the infans solaris,
19:16
Speaker 3: the sun child, which is also present in the 19th
19:22
Speaker 3: Tarot key called the sun, where there are small children
19:26
Speaker 3: that are dancing in a fairy ring, which is another
19:28
Speaker 3: kind of uterine symbol. So in her treatment of that idea,
19:34
Speaker 3: that the sun and the moon come into a sacred union,
19:38
Speaker 3: that produces the solar infant. This also happens with Isis
19:43
Speaker 3: and Osiris producing Horus, God and Mary producing Jesus. but
19:51
Speaker 3: for our inner work that the ego and the anima
19:56
Speaker 3: animus which is the potential that's waiting for us from
20:02
Speaker 3: the self finally know each other well enough to become
20:07
Speaker 3: a complete And out of that, something remarkable begins to emerge,
20:17
Speaker 3: which is this union of the various opposites inside of us.
20:22
Speaker 3: And that profoundly changes the personality and is the work
20:27
Speaker 3: of individuation.
20:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Joseph, you lifted up this important kind of
20:33
Speaker 2: variant of the child archetype, which is the divine child archetype.
20:38
Speaker 2: which appears in multiple mythological systems. And in the book, Dreamwise, actually,
20:45
Speaker 2: we do talk about that archetype in the chapter on
20:48
Speaker 2: the self, because, you know, Deb, you mentioned this. The
20:53
Speaker 2: self is the guiding center of the personality, and it
20:55
Speaker 2: can present in dreams in all kinds of different ways.
20:59
Speaker 2: And in the book, we mentioned some of them. There's
21:02
Speaker 2: no way such a list could ever be exhaustive. But
21:05
Speaker 2: one of those ways is it can present as a
21:08
Speaker 2: kind of divine child that carries, you know, the thing
21:11
Speaker 2: about the divine child is it carries the new attitude
21:16
Speaker 2: for the culture. It carries salvation and redemption and the
21:23
Speaker 2: medicine that the culture needs for renewal.
21:26
Speaker 3: This potential, this divine potential, this inspired view, on behalf
21:32
Speaker 3: of the collective, which I think shows up in mythology,
21:36
Speaker 3: also is both fragile and eternal. That it requires something.
21:42
Speaker 3: In the mythopoetic story of the birth of Jesus, the
21:47
Speaker 3: three kings come and offer resources because they're necessary. That
21:52
Speaker 3: we have to tend the miraculous birth or else it
21:58
Speaker 3: might not come to us. its fullness. We have a
22:01
Speaker 3: responsibility to the baby, so to speak, that's born inside
22:07
Speaker 3: our soul.
22:09
Speaker 4: And that baby often comes from the unexpected, diminished, outcast,
22:19
Speaker 4: exiled part of the psyche. You know that in the
22:23
Speaker 4: Christian myth, of course, Jesus is born in a manger
22:27
Speaker 4: and outside anything that is normative. Moses is found in
22:35
Speaker 4: a basket floating down the Nile. Many of the Greek
22:40
Speaker 4: heroes were rejected. They were the product of various liaisons
22:46
Speaker 4: between Zeus and mortals and were outcasts and had trials
22:51
Speaker 4: and tribulations not acknowledged.
22:55
Speaker 3: And so.
22:58
Speaker 4: I think it's important to think about this opportunity as
23:02
Speaker 4: something that is divine, something that is eternal, and something
23:05
Speaker 4: that's often not recognized, liked, or acknowledged as legitimate by
23:11
Speaker 4: the ego that wants to come in and be part
23:16
Speaker 4: of a new beginning.
23:18
Speaker 3: Right. So that reminds me, Deb, of that feeling that
23:22
Speaker 3: some of our potential is in danger, that It's underdeveloped, rejected, neglected,
23:30
Speaker 3: and it needs some protection from us, even if it's
23:34
Speaker 3: just protection from our own critical hostility towards our own potential.
23:40
Speaker 3: That the rejected part, the stone that was rejected, becomes
23:46
Speaker 3: the cornerstone of the temple. It is such a wonderful,
23:50
Speaker 3: redemptive piece of this.
23:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is part of the mythologem of the child,
23:57
Speaker 2: that the child is often endangered. And as you said, Joseph,
24:01
Speaker 2: in the Christian story, or you talked about that with Moses,
24:05
Speaker 2: you know, the birth of Krishna is being pursued by
24:08
Speaker 2: some terrible demons and has to be hidden, hidden away.
24:13
Speaker 2: And that is, you know, very, very common in different
24:17
Speaker 2: mythological stories about the divine child, that they're that it
24:21
Speaker 2: is in peril. And Joseph, I like what you said.
24:23
Speaker 2: It might be imperiled from our own critical voice. You know,
24:27
Speaker 2: the new thing that comes, we might be likely to
24:30
Speaker 2: want to reject it because as you said, Deb, it
24:32
Speaker 2: comes from an undervalued part of the psyche. And also
24:37
Speaker 2: it threatens the ego defenses. And so we might be
24:41
Speaker 2: prone to attack it.
24:42
Speaker 3: And we see that all the time. People contemplate writing
24:48
Speaker 3: a book or doing some creative endeavor. And then as
24:52
Speaker 3: they move towards it, they get filled with a kind
24:55
Speaker 3: of horror and a dread, which can mean many different things.
25:00
Speaker 3: Is there an internal figure that's attacking it? Is the
25:04
Speaker 3: demand so numinous that the ego can't form a relationship
25:09
Speaker 3: to it? And Jung says something, that the child archetype
25:15
Speaker 3: is an anticipation of individuation, which is the seed of
25:20
Speaker 3: the self, that if it's nurtured, it might not be nurtured,
25:25
Speaker 3: but if it's nurtured, could lead to psychic wholeness, but
25:28
Speaker 3: that wholeness is going to make a radical demand upon
25:31
Speaker 3: us that we can feel intimidated and ambivalent about that
25:37
Speaker 3: much change.
25:39
Speaker 2: Jung talks quite a bit about the child archetype. He
25:42
Speaker 2: has a whole essay about it in Volume 9.1, The
25:46
Speaker 2: Archetypes of the Collective Unconscious, and he says, The child
25:49
Speaker 2: archetype is a link to the past, but he has
25:52
Speaker 2: a beautiful paragraph about the futurity of the archetype. So
25:56
Speaker 2: I think I will read that, which relates to what
26:00
Speaker 2: you were just saying, Joseph. One of the essential features
26:03
Speaker 2: of the child motif is its futurity. The child is
26:08
Speaker 2: potential future. Hence, the occurrence of the child motif in
26:12
Speaker 2: the psychology of the individual is signifies as a rule
26:16
Speaker 2: and anticipation of future developments, even though at first sight,
26:21
Speaker 2: it may seem like a retrospective configuration. Life is a flux,
26:26
Speaker 2: flowing into the future, and not a stoppage or a backwash.
26:31
Speaker 2: It is therefore not surprising that so many of the
26:34
Speaker 2: mythological saviors are child gods. This agrees exactly with our
26:39
Speaker 2: experience of the psychology of the individual, which shows that
26:43
Speaker 2: the child god I don't think it can be any
26:45
Speaker 2: better said than that.
26:46
Speaker 3: So.
27:08
Speaker 2: I wonder if we should move to the dreams that
27:11
Speaker 2: we collected. But before we do, let's just take a
27:14
Speaker 2: moment to remind you about our Patreon.
27:18
Speaker 3: We're hoping that everyone will join us in our subscriber community.
27:22
Speaker 3: You can become a patron, which helps us by sharing
27:27
Speaker 3: a little resource each month so that we can keep
27:31
Speaker 3: the podcast up and running. And we provide special bonus
27:35
Speaker 3: content this week. We are interpreting a dream from one
27:40
Speaker 3: of our patrons that involves a walk through a dark
27:44
Speaker 3: forest with a rather mysterious black dog. A potent symbol,
27:50
Speaker 3: really interesting for us to interpret, and we'd like to
27:53
Speaker 3: interpret your dream as well. Go to patreon.com slash this
27:59
Speaker 3: Jungian life and join us there.
28:03
Speaker 2: Okay, well, we asked you for your pregnancy and baby dreams,
28:07
Speaker 2: and you delivered. This is part of our dreamography program.
28:10
Speaker 2: I didn't even get it.
28:12
Speaker 3: I was totally... Cosmic storks dropping off their dreams.
28:17
Speaker 2: So we have a special form on our website for
28:20
Speaker 2: such dreams, for dreamography dreams. Our next topic is going
28:25
Speaker 2: to be intruder dreams. So if you've had a dream
28:28
Speaker 2: of an intruder... please don't send it to our usual
28:33
Speaker 2: dream inbox, but click the link under our Dreamography project.
28:39
Speaker 2: We will include that link in the show notes and
28:42
Speaker 2: you can submit it there. And as an extra bonus,
28:45
Speaker 2: everyone who submits a dream will be eligible to receive
28:50
Speaker 2: a free copy of DreamWise, Unlocking the Meaning of Your Dreams.
28:54
Speaker 2: So do check that out, but let's go to some
28:58
Speaker 2: of the wonderful dreams that you all submitted. for this topic. Deb,
29:02
Speaker 2: do you want to read the first one?
29:04
Speaker 4: Yes, this first dream is from a 45-year-old woman who's
29:08
Speaker 4: an artist, and here is the dream. I was riding
29:13
Speaker 4: my motorbike around the Tuscan hills. When riding uphill, I
29:18
Speaker 4: noticed that the road looks different, as if there had
29:21
Speaker 4: been a flood, and some points were broken, but I
29:24
Speaker 4: continued my way up. When I reached the top of
29:27
Speaker 4: the hill, I noticed that the road required me to
29:30
Speaker 4: go through a house. Once inside, I noticed that there
29:34
Speaker 4: were two rectangular, sharp-edged puddles. I was worried my motorcyclist
29:49
Speaker 4: So I came down from my bike to reflect about
29:51
Speaker 4: it when a woman, a florist that I know, showed up.
29:55
Speaker 4: I was surprised to see her there. She seemed really
29:59
Speaker 4: comfortable about herself. When I asked her if she lived
30:02
Speaker 4: in that house, she said, Yes, I live here now,
30:05
Speaker 4: but I'm pregnant. So if you want to see me again,
30:08
Speaker 4: you won't find me here because I'm moving somewhere where
30:11
Speaker 4: I can raise my baby. For context, the dreamer says,
30:16
Speaker 4: I had this dream when I was working and exhibiting
30:19
Speaker 4: some of my works in a gallery where I felt
30:22
Speaker 4: really uncomfortable emotionally. I couldn't showcase the works that I
30:27
Speaker 4: cared the most about, plus I didn't agree with the
30:30
Speaker 4: way the artists were treated in that space. A few
30:34
Speaker 4: months later, I decided to leave the gallery and decided
30:36
Speaker 4: to take care of myself and my work, knowing that
30:40
Speaker 4: finding another space like that was not going to be easy.
30:44
Speaker 4: For feelings, she says, I felt curiosity toward the landscape
30:49
Speaker 4: around me and also felt scared. The two rectangular puddles
30:54
Speaker 4: really made me upset because in theory puddles are not deep,
30:58
Speaker 4: but they looked like they were. The sharp edges made
31:01
Speaker 4: me doubt my riding skills. The pregnant woman felt like
31:05
Speaker 4: a relief, but at the same time I was surprised
31:09
Speaker 4: because this woman exists in my real life. She is
31:12
Speaker 4: an actual florist, but she doesn't have children and never
31:16
Speaker 4: looks as happy and comfortable as in the dream. For associations,
31:21
Speaker 4: she offers, I am married, but both I and my
31:25
Speaker 4: husband decided not to have children because I want to
31:28
Speaker 4: explore other things as a couple, like our work as artists.
31:33
Speaker 4: I never felt the urge to be pregnant or be
31:35
Speaker 4: a mom. I do feel urgency to create work, and
31:39
Speaker 4: the creative process is sometimes painful to the extent that
31:43
Speaker 4: often I refer to it as going into labor. The
31:47
Speaker 4: road where I was riding my motorbike is a beautiful,
31:51
Speaker 4: typical Tuscan landscape that I used to ride through by car,
31:55
Speaker 4: not my bike, when I was studying pottery. So, this
32:00
Speaker 4: gives us a lot to work with.
32:03
Speaker 2: Well, There it is, right? This association with pregnancy as
32:09
Speaker 2: an image of gestating a creative project. You know, I
32:12
Speaker 2: think that's really important to highlight that pregnancy dreams are
32:20
Speaker 2: not necessarily about an actual baby, although they might be.
32:25
Speaker 2: And yes, women who are pregnant have dreams about babies
32:29
Speaker 2: in pregnancy, but Lots of the rest of us also
32:33
Speaker 2: have dreams about pregnancy because it refers to a psychological state.
32:38
Speaker 2: So this is such a good example of this. She's
32:40
Speaker 2: just very clear. This is not in her personal experience.
32:44
Speaker 2: But here it shows up in this dream at a
32:46
Speaker 2: kind of critical moment when she's worried she won't be
32:48
Speaker 2: able to cross these puddles. There's something, it's almost like
32:52
Speaker 2: the resolution of the dream is the pregnant woman saying,
32:56
Speaker 2: I'm moving somewhere else.
32:58
Speaker 4: Yes.
32:59
Speaker 3: That some kind of a change is required in this
33:02
Speaker 3: woman's psyche in order for this creative seed to come
33:09
Speaker 3: forward and be nurtured properly. So I'm curious about that
33:15
Speaker 3: moment where she's moving pretty fast, she's on a motorcycle,
33:19
Speaker 3: I mean, she can zoom right past the pregnant woman,
33:24
Speaker 3: and the dream maker creates a situation that causes her
33:28
Speaker 3: to slow down and to have to brood over the waters,
33:35
Speaker 3: which also happens in Genesis, right? And brooding upon the
33:40
Speaker 3: waters then calls forth, so to speak, this rather comfortable
33:46
Speaker 3: pregnant figure who's giving her some pretty specific stuff. You're
33:54
Speaker 3: not going to find me here again. Because there's another
33:59
Speaker 3: place that's better where this can be tended and brought
34:04
Speaker 3: to fullness.
34:06
Speaker 4: That may well relate to what she says in providing
34:11
Speaker 4: the context that she has moved on from a place
34:15
Speaker 4: that felt uncomfortable emotionally. And that finding another space will
34:22
Speaker 4: be hard. It won't be easy. But like the pregnant
34:29
Speaker 4: woman in the dream, she needs a place where she
34:32
Speaker 4: can raise her creative baby. Right.
34:36
Speaker 2: So that gallery she was exhibiting at wasn't the right place.
34:39
Speaker 2: And this is a rather basic interpretation of the dream,
34:43
Speaker 2: but I think it is true. And then, of course,
34:45
Speaker 2: there's always other levels, too. But, you know, she can
34:49
Speaker 2: take better care of her creative offspring at another gallery.
34:54
Speaker 2: So the pregnant woman then comes as kind of the answer.
34:57
Speaker 2: and a shift in attitude that sort of gives her
35:00
Speaker 2: permission to tend to herself better. One of the things
35:04
Speaker 2: I think is interesting is why is a florist? And
35:08
Speaker 2: I mean, we don't have the dreamer here. We can't
35:11
Speaker 2: ask her more associations about this particular woman. So I'm
35:14
Speaker 2: going to riff on the idea of a florist, which
35:18
Speaker 2: is florists are interesting because we tend to go to
35:22
Speaker 2: a florist to mark major life transitions. So when do
35:28
Speaker 2: you give flowers? You give flowers when someone has a baby.
35:31
Speaker 2: You give flowers when someone dies. So in some sense,
35:36
Speaker 2: I wonder if they're a bit of an image of
35:38
Speaker 2: a kind of guardian between the realms, because their work
35:44
Speaker 2: is often so tied up with the creation of new life,
35:48
Speaker 2: but also with loss. So that's just some speculation.
35:52
Speaker 3: I think that adds a really deep dimension to it.
35:57
Speaker 3: but also just thinking about what flowers are. And flowers
36:01
Speaker 3: are the reproductive process that eventually will lead to the
36:05
Speaker 3: creation of the seed. So the flower is required for
36:11
Speaker 3: this reproductive cycle to happen. And the florist is the
36:17
Speaker 3: one who's presenting this, but is also stopping the reproductive
36:22
Speaker 3: process from occurring by cutting the flower. prior to its seeding.
36:27
Speaker 3: So it's an interesting ambivalence.
36:29
Speaker 4: Yeah, we get flowers when they are in full bloom,
36:33
Speaker 4: when they are at their best. The roses or the
36:38
Speaker 4: bouquet or whatever it is arrives. And we know that
36:42
Speaker 4: it will be short-lived. So it sort of bridges, you know,
36:46
Speaker 4: life and death, the fullness of the blooming and its
36:54
Speaker 4: transitory nature.
36:56
Speaker 3: There's also just a brief amplification I would use, which
37:01
Speaker 3: comes to the story of the grail. So Percival is
37:05
Speaker 3: there in the court. The grail, which is this holy object,
37:10
Speaker 3: kind of just floats through the room. Percival kind of
37:14
Speaker 3: doesn't know what to do about it, and he's kind
37:16
Speaker 3: of sent out of the castle because he didn't say
37:20
Speaker 3: the right thing. He didn't know what to do about it.
37:23
Speaker 3: And then there's another journey. So the woman in the
37:27
Speaker 3: dream says, I am here now, but if you want
37:32
Speaker 3: to ever see me again, you will have to search
37:36
Speaker 3: for me because I'm going to be somewhere else when
37:39
Speaker 3: I raise the baby. So we've got a glimpse of
37:42
Speaker 3: the mystery and then the promise of a whole other
37:47
Speaker 3: journey that the dreamer needs to go on, much like Percival,
37:52
Speaker 3: to find the holy object.
37:55
Speaker 2: To find the baby.
37:56
Speaker 3: To find the baby.
37:57
Speaker 2: That's beautiful, Joseph. I really like that. And, you know,
38:00
Speaker 2: and it sort of fits, right? That she's on a
38:03
Speaker 2: bit of a quest. I mean, we don't have the
38:05
Speaker 2: sense that she's looking for something, but she is out
38:08
Speaker 2: in the countryside on her motorbike. And it's a very
38:12
Speaker 2: individual way of traveling. And the dream seems to make
38:15
Speaker 2: a point of this, right? Because it's, she said that
38:18
Speaker 2: when she used to drive through this countryside, it was
38:21
Speaker 2: always in a car, not a motorbike. So the dream
38:23
Speaker 2: maker is like, you're on a motorbike, which is, which
38:27
Speaker 2: is individual. It's a little bit more, um, I don't
38:30
Speaker 2: think you can really take anyone with you on a motorbike,
38:32
Speaker 2: at least not easily.
38:34
Speaker 4: Not really. And you're very exposed and it's riskier. Uh,
38:39
Speaker 4: you really can be, uh, much more readily injured on
38:42
Speaker 4: a bike or motorbike than in a car. So there,
38:46
Speaker 4: there's something very daring. I always think whenever I see
38:49
Speaker 4: anybody on a motorcycle of, wow, uh, daring to do
38:54
Speaker 4: that i love.
38:56
Speaker 3: The standalone phrase if you want to see me again
39:01
Speaker 3: you won't find me here just that phrase has so
39:05
Speaker 3: much fascinating energy if this were my analysis and i
39:10
Speaker 3: might be in i call this going fishing you pick
39:13
Speaker 3: a little phrase and then you just repeat it to
39:16
Speaker 3: yourself if you want to see me again you won't
39:19
Speaker 3: find me here if you want to see me again
39:22
Speaker 3: you won't find me here then you just see what
39:24
Speaker 3: images and associations just pop up that may not be
39:28
Speaker 3: related to the dream, but relevant. because the language is
39:32
Speaker 3: so evocative in and of itself.
39:34
Speaker 2: It sounds like something from a fairy tale. It's exactly
39:37
Speaker 2: like something that would happen in a fairy tale. I
39:38
Speaker 2: love that you lifted that up.
39:40
Speaker 4: Yeah.
39:40
Speaker 2: And of course we could think about this pregnant woman
39:43
Speaker 2: as a shadow figure, really containing positive shadow qualities, I think, because, uh,
39:50
Speaker 2: or golden shadow as it's sometimes called, because she's here
39:54
Speaker 2: to help the dreamer gestate her own new babies.
40:01
Speaker 3: And she's got to make a choice. The dreamer has
40:03
Speaker 3: a choice. If you want, it's conditional. If you want this,
40:08
Speaker 3: you're going to have to find me. If you don't
40:10
Speaker 3: want it, so be it. It's up to you.
40:15
Speaker 2: Our next dream comes from a 38-year-old woman who was
40:18
Speaker 2: in her third trimester of her first pregnancy when she
40:22
Speaker 2: had this dream, and she is a postdoctoral researcher. Here's
40:26
Speaker 2: the dream. I was pregnant and at a medical checkup,
40:31
Speaker 2: but it was taking place outdoors near a tree. I
40:35
Speaker 2: was asked if I had given birth before, and I
40:37
Speaker 2: said yes and pointed to a large gray boa-like snake
40:43
Speaker 2: a short distance away. When I had given birth to
40:46
Speaker 2: the snake, I had been cut under my ribs, though
40:49
Speaker 2: it was now healed. It had healed, but the snake
40:52
Speaker 2: had also been cut. The snake seemed lethargic and piled
40:57
Speaker 2: up and unconcerned with us. For context, she notes, I
41:02
Speaker 2: now have a two-month-old, our first child. At the time,
41:09
Speaker 2: I was still figuring out where I would give birth
41:12
Speaker 2: as I live in my husband's country and the medical
41:14
Speaker 2: system is different from my home country. I was concerned
41:17
Speaker 2: about the rate of episiotomy and other procedures, which are
41:20
Speaker 2: now less practiced at home. I was also concerned about
41:24
Speaker 2: starting maternity leave, sharing the mental load and chores with parenting,
41:29
Speaker 2: finishing preparation at home, neither of us being in a
41:32
Speaker 2: stable career, etc. For feelings, she says, it felt matter-of-fact.
41:37
Speaker 2: I didn't feel maternal toward the snake, just like it
41:40
Speaker 2: was a fact that I had birthed it previously. It
41:44
Speaker 2: wasn't now mine, it was just there. I was not
41:48
Speaker 2: afraid of the snake, which is different from every snake
41:50
Speaker 2: dream I have ever had. For association, she notes, I
41:55
Speaker 2: was in the third trimester at the time and my
41:57
Speaker 2: husband and I were expecting our first daughter. The pregnancy
42:01
Speaker 2: was going well. So I think I just first want
42:05
Speaker 2: to state that there are plenty of dreams where the
42:08
Speaker 2: mother gives birth to a snake, right? There's Prince Lindworm.
42:14
Speaker 2: And there's also an Italian tale called Bianca Bella and
42:18
Speaker 2: the Snake, where a snake kind of visits her in
42:21
Speaker 2: the garden. And then sure enough, she later gives birth
42:25
Speaker 2: to a snake. So this is a mythological dream image
42:30
Speaker 2: right here.
42:31
Speaker 4: Yes. And just the Prince Lindworm tale is about a
42:37
Speaker 4: woman who, as in many a fairy tale, can't get pregnant.
42:42
Speaker 4: And a wise woman gives her the way to go
42:45
Speaker 4: ahead and do this. She can eat a flower, but
42:49
Speaker 4: she can eat a white flower or a red flower,
42:51
Speaker 4: but not both. And of course, she eats both.
42:55
Speaker 3: So.
42:56
Speaker 4: You know, whenever you're told not to do something in
42:59
Speaker 4: a fairy tale, you can pretty much count on it happening.
43:02
Speaker 4: So she gives birth to two babies. And one of
43:07
Speaker 4: them is a giant snake who goes slithering off as
43:11
Speaker 4: soon as he hits the floor. And the other is
43:14
Speaker 4: a beautiful baby boy. So, you know, of course, we
43:19
Speaker 4: thought of this fairy tale right away.
43:22
Speaker 2: And one of the things that the fairy tale tells us,
43:25
Speaker 2: because if you know the tale, the snake does go
43:28
Speaker 2: away and the mother doesn't divulge this to anyone. She
43:31
Speaker 2: doesn't tell anyone that there was another snake baby. And
43:35
Speaker 2: it comes back to bite her, so to speak, when
43:39
Speaker 2: her other child is of marrying age and the prince,
43:44
Speaker 2: you know, wants to get married. And then Prince Lindworms
43:47
Speaker 2: comes along. I always kind of picture it as sort
43:49
Speaker 2: of like Jabba the Hutt, this giant fleshy snake. And says,
43:53
Speaker 2: a bride for me before a bride for you. And
43:58
Speaker 2: he was the eldest. The snake baby was the eldest.
44:00
Speaker 2: So they had to marry him off. And it creates
44:02
Speaker 2: all kinds of problems. Because he likes to eat the
44:05
Speaker 2: women he marries.
44:07
Speaker 4: He keeps devouring the bride, which is kind of unfortunate.
44:11
Speaker 2: Doesn't work so well. But anyway, it's this idea that
44:15
Speaker 2: we birthed something and then we disavowed it. We didn't
44:20
Speaker 2: let ourselves know about it. And we hoped that it
44:24
Speaker 2: just went away. But in fact, it may come back.
44:29
Speaker 2: So I'm thinking about this snake that she feels a
44:31
Speaker 2: little bit like, that's not mine. It's like, okay, what
44:35
Speaker 2: part of that, what part of her psyche is she
44:38
Speaker 2: disavowing there that she gave birth to?
44:42
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I take a leap into the story
44:46
Speaker 4: of Adam and Eve in the garden. And although that
44:50
Speaker 4: was not Eve's child. It is, you know, in a
44:56
Speaker 4: Jungian sense, very much the birth of ego, the birth
45:01
Speaker 4: of will, the birth of consciousness. And I think it
45:06
Speaker 4: ties in with the image of Prince Lindworm in that
45:11
Speaker 4: this is psychic content that we are at best ambivalent
45:17
Speaker 4: about admitting to. into consciousness. And I think it's interesting
45:23
Speaker 4: that in the dream, she says, I didn't feel maternal.
45:26
Speaker 4: Neither does the queen in the Prince Lindworm story. It
45:30
Speaker 4: was just a fact. And it's mine. So it has
45:34
Speaker 4: reappeared just as the Prince, as the Lindworm reappears in
45:39
Speaker 4: the story. Here I am demanding recognition and demanding admission
45:46
Speaker 4: of my right to in the story, to be married.
45:51
Speaker 4: But here I am. Recognize me. Get to know me.
45:56
Speaker 4: The shadow content has reappeared.
45:58
Speaker 2: I think that's right. And I also think that it
46:02
Speaker 2: may have something to do with instinct. Snakes are very
46:07
Speaker 2: much imagistically part of our kind of rest and digest unconscious,
46:12
Speaker 2: all of the unconscious processes that go on. You know,
46:17
Speaker 2: it's like our primitive nervous system. It kind of looks
46:20
Speaker 2: like a snake sneaking up our spine. And of course,
46:24
Speaker 2: that is a huge thing when we're gestating something, when
46:27
Speaker 2: we're gestating a human or we're gestating an idea or
46:32
Speaker 2: something creative is that, you know, we're tapping into that
46:35
Speaker 2: layer sometimes. So we mentioned Bianca Bella and the snake
46:40
Speaker 2: and that fairy tale that is in the Italo Calvino collection.
46:46
Speaker 2: Here's a dream from a woman who was pregnant. And
46:49
Speaker 2: this is from the book, A Dream Child, that I
46:52
Speaker 2: referenced before, just to kind of contrast how snakes show up.
46:57
Speaker 2: I was at the hospital when a nurse came in
46:59
Speaker 2: and put the baby in my arms. There was a
47:01
Speaker 2: bathing tub where childbirth would happen. The water was clean. Suddenly,
47:06
Speaker 2: we saw a snake moving in the bathing tub. First,
47:09
Speaker 2: it was flat and transparent, but soon it was hard
47:12
Speaker 2: and coiled. So again, in the stream, there's this association
47:14
Speaker 2: between the snake and the baby. And is it possible
47:15
Speaker 2: that this image is kind of pointing to a very deep, embodied,
47:18
Speaker 2: instinctual process?
47:41
Speaker 3: We don't have her associations to the snake, which is unfortunate,
47:46
Speaker 3: but I have an intuition that this may be a
47:51
Speaker 3: dream about a previously terminated pregnancy. And as happens, if
48:00
Speaker 3: people have chosen to terminate a previous pregnancy, when they
48:05
Speaker 3: become pregnant again and decide to bring it to term,
48:08
Speaker 3: that the previous pregnancy pregnancies come into mind. They come
48:14
Speaker 3: into the process and they become something to consider because
48:20
Speaker 3: the relationship towards the pregnancy and the possibility of child
48:24
Speaker 3: has changed. So I'm wondering if the lethargic piled-up snake
48:32
Speaker 3: represents a previous experience that's requiring attention. That's requiring tending
48:41
Speaker 3: and consideration. That's a real far reach. She did not
48:45
Speaker 3: say that in her associations. That's purely intuitive. But I
48:50
Speaker 3: could kind of imagine that.
48:52
Speaker 4: What I'm thinking about is that you've touched on what
48:57
Speaker 4: I just touched on a little bit ago, which is
49:02
Speaker 4: shadow content.
49:03
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
49:04
Speaker 4: Whether it is something as concrete as a previously terminated pregnancy,
49:12
Speaker 4: whether intentional or not, or whether it is something that
49:17
Speaker 4: um the person is simply not ready to uh recognize
49:22
Speaker 4: consciously as in the prince lindworm story where it goes
49:25
Speaker 4: slithering off uh to grow until it can come back
49:30
Speaker 4: years later and demand recognition we don't know.
49:34
Speaker 2: But uh.
49:37
Speaker 4: And that it is instinctual. I mean, we talk about
49:39
Speaker 4: the reptilian brain, the Kundalini movement up the spine as
49:44
Speaker 4: a serpent. And, of course, it's also something that is grounded.
49:51
Speaker 4: Snakes are ground creatures. They don't have legs. They're right
49:55
Speaker 4: there at the base of things, feeling every inch of
49:59
Speaker 4: the world that they slither over. So I think it's
50:05
Speaker 4: an interesting question as to what it might represent. And
50:09
Speaker 4: it's interesting that it is archetypally a feature in fairy
50:15
Speaker 4: tales and religious mythology and so on, that the relationship
50:20
Speaker 4: between spirit and instinct, shadow and light, is right there
50:27
Speaker 4: at the core.
50:28
Speaker 2: You know, to lift up again, Deb, your point about Shadow,
50:32
Speaker 2: there's an African fairy tale called The Story of Two Women.
50:37
Speaker 2: And it's a great story for Shadow because there are
50:43
Speaker 2: these two women and they each have a baby. And
50:46
Speaker 2: the baby is very much associated with the snake. So
50:51
Speaker 2: she brings home a snake and it depends on how
50:53
Speaker 2: she tends it, whether or not she then gives birth
50:56
Speaker 2: later to a baby. And in In one dream, she
50:59
Speaker 2: doesn't tend it the right way and bad things happen
51:03
Speaker 2: to her. But in the other dream, she's very gentle
51:05
Speaker 2: with a snake and then she gives birth to a baby.
51:08
Speaker 2: So when I talk about it, I'm going to do
51:12
Speaker 2: a little self-promotion here. I interpret that fairy tale in
51:16
Speaker 2: depth in my book, Motherhood. So if anyone's interested in
51:20
Speaker 2: following that up, there's a lot about snakes and fairy
51:23
Speaker 2: tales in there.
51:25
Speaker 3: The last amplification I'd like to offer, which is really
51:28
Speaker 3: zooming way up in the atmosphere, but it has something
51:33
Speaker 3: to do with a concept that Jung called the alchemical monstrosity,
51:40
Speaker 3: that sometimes, as we are on a path to wholeness,
51:46
Speaker 3: that the ego can come into union with some content
51:51
Speaker 3: in the unconscious, that is, not the anima animus, but
51:55
Speaker 3: maybe some other kind of content. And in the way
52:00
Speaker 3: that it comes together, it produces an image of oneself
52:05
Speaker 3: or the image of a kind of creative task that is,
52:10
Speaker 3: in a sense, malformed and not something that can be pursued.
52:17
Speaker 3: Some analysts have used the artwork of Hieronymus Bausch He
52:22
Speaker 3: has these panels in the, I think it's the Garden
52:26
Speaker 3: of Delights.
52:27
Speaker 2: Garden of Earthly Delights.
52:29
Speaker 3: Earthly Delights. And one of them represents this kind of idealized,
52:34
Speaker 3: perfect form. But then on the sides, there are these distorted,
52:38
Speaker 3: tortured kind of forms. And it speaks to the delicacy
52:45
Speaker 3: of the process of individuation. sometimes we can have a
52:49
Speaker 3: kind of false individuation. The self becomes close, we take
52:53
Speaker 3: it in, but we're not ready, and then it has
52:55
Speaker 3: strange effects in the psyche and can make us feel
52:58
Speaker 3: quite unwell. And then we have to go back to
53:01
Speaker 3: the drawing board and come into a different kind of pregnancy.
53:07
Speaker 3: So again, not knowing this person, but giving birth, quote-unquote,
53:11
Speaker 3: to a monster, which of course happens in the Greco-Roman
53:16
Speaker 3: myths all the time, suggests a problematic union between the
53:21
Speaker 3: ego and something else, which again may need to be
53:26
Speaker 3: thought through as her creative process continues.
53:30
Speaker 2: And my imagination is she needs to actually go and
53:33
Speaker 2: make friends with that snake who's wounded. The snake is cut. So,
53:38
Speaker 2: and it was wounded a lot. Like she had a wounding.
53:41
Speaker 2: She had a wounding and the snake was wounded.
53:44
Speaker 4: The last thing I'll say is she had this dream
53:48
Speaker 4: when she was in the third trimester of her pregnancy.
53:51
Speaker 4: And I know in my experience and in comparing stories
53:57
Speaker 4: with many another woman, we know in the third trimester especially,
54:03
Speaker 4: what if something goes wrong? There's always an awful fear
54:10
Speaker 4: in the psyche. That what if something goes wrong? What
54:16
Speaker 4: if this baby is not okay? And so I wonder
54:21
Speaker 4: about that as a possibility of the worry that I
54:26
Speaker 4: think is embedded in humankind for millennia. Pregnancy and childbirth
54:32
Speaker 4: were very, very dangerous and could be imaged as the
54:38
Speaker 4: monstrosity or in this woman's dream, the wounded. instinct, the
54:43
Speaker 4: wounded snake. Yeah.
54:46
Speaker 3: From that standpoint, Deb, I would just say that she's
54:50
Speaker 3: concerned in the associations about the rate of episiotomies. And
54:54
Speaker 3: for those who may not know what that is, but
54:58
Speaker 3: sometimes during a natural childbirth, if the baby is having
55:01
Speaker 3: a very hard time exiting the body, a surgeon may
55:05
Speaker 3: We'll make a surgical cut at the top of the
55:08
Speaker 3: vaginal opening in order to just make it larger so
55:11
Speaker 3: the baby can exit. Then that gets sewn up. But,
55:16
Speaker 3: you know, it can be very painful and sometimes it
55:20
Speaker 3: happens accidentally with a tearing, etc. But there is this
55:24
Speaker 3: parallel process between she is cut and the serpent is cut.
55:29
Speaker 3: And that may suggest that the serpent represents her. And
55:34
Speaker 3: the serpent may represent her fear of how she will
55:40
Speaker 3: wind up if this isn't handled correctly. Will I just
55:45
Speaker 3: be lethargic and piled up and an object that no
55:49
Speaker 3: one is concerned about if I am cut in a
55:52
Speaker 3: certain fashion and it'll turn out badly? And so the
55:57
Speaker 3: snake could be, again, as you said, this is something
55:59
Speaker 3: she needs to take care of. which is based on
56:02
Speaker 3: her fear of being injured by the process. Our third
56:07
Speaker 3: dreamer is a 32-year-old man who is a psychotherapist. And
56:12
Speaker 3: he writes, I find out that my childhood best friend
56:16
Speaker 3: is having a baby by himself. I tell him that
56:20
Speaker 3: I will help him raise it. We both move into
56:23
Speaker 3: his parents' attic, a room we spent a lot of
56:26
Speaker 3: time in when we were young. I have many good
56:29
Speaker 3: memories from there, as well as the entire house. I
56:33
Speaker 3: felt a great deal of responsibility and pressure involved in
56:37
Speaker 3: helping my friend raise the child and told my family
56:40
Speaker 3: about my commitment. They were supportive to an extent, but
56:44
Speaker 3: also questioned why I would do such a thing. I
56:48
Speaker 3: told them I was excited to be a father. At
56:51
Speaker 3: a certain point, I remembered that I have a pregnant
56:54
Speaker 3: wife who needed me to be our own child's father.
56:58
Speaker 3: it became immediately clear to me that this was much
57:02
Speaker 3: more important since it was my own child. But I
57:05
Speaker 3: also felt that I had made a commitment to my friend.
57:08
Speaker 3: I felt torn. To my surprise, my friend told me
57:12
Speaker 3: that I didn't need to help him raise his own
57:14
Speaker 3: child and that he never asked for my help in
57:17
Speaker 3: the first place. He was simply glad to have my support.
57:21
Speaker 3: This felt very relieving to me, and I moved out
57:24
Speaker 3: of the attic to live with my wife and wait
57:26
Speaker 3: for my own child to be born. For context, he writes,
57:32
Speaker 3: my wife and I moved to a new city, got married,
57:34
Speaker 3: got pregnant, and bought a house all in the same
57:38
Speaker 3: calendar year. It's been a lot to marriage and has
57:42
Speaker 3: been stressful, but we are handling it well. As for feelings,
57:47
Speaker 3: in the dream he felt responsibility, anxiety, and relief. And
57:52
Speaker 3: he adds, for associations, I have always wanted to be
57:57
Speaker 3: a father. and I'm very excited to finally become one.
58:00
Speaker 3: My friend's house has been a feature in many of
58:03
Speaker 3: my dreams. My friends and I spent much of our
58:07
Speaker 3: time there. We were often left unattended and could get
58:10
Speaker 3: away with whatever we wanted to a certain extent. We
58:13
Speaker 3: felt safe there.
58:14
Speaker 2: You know, there's something so sweet about this dream. I mean,
58:19
Speaker 2: of course, what I really wish we knew more of
58:21
Speaker 2: is this friend. Who is this friend? Who is this
58:25
Speaker 2: friend to the dreamer? We know a little bit. That
58:28
Speaker 2: there was a kind of magical quality about spending time
58:30
Speaker 2: in this house where they could safely get up to
58:34
Speaker 2: whatever they wanted, which reminds me a little bit of imagination.
58:40
Speaker 2: Because in imagination, you can do whatever you want and
58:43
Speaker 2: you're safe. You know, you could imagine doing all kinds
58:48
Speaker 2: of things that you couldn't do in real life because
58:51
Speaker 2: they'd be dangerous or illicit or whatever. So there's something
58:56
Speaker 2: of a wonderfully protected space in the psyche that's imaged
59:01
Speaker 2: by this dream. But I do wonder specifically about the friend, too,
59:05
Speaker 2: because the dreamer, I mean, essentially the dream shows there's
59:09
Speaker 2: a bit of a turnover. between this inner, I would
59:12
Speaker 2: say a shadow figure that is gestating something and perhaps
59:19
Speaker 2: the outer life reality of the pregnant wife.
59:24
Speaker 4: And I think the dream does a beautiful job of
59:28
Speaker 4: kind of carrying the dream ego forward, that this childhood
59:35
Speaker 4: best friend shadow figure is having a baby by himself.
59:40
Speaker 4: And we move into the parents' attic, which is, in
59:44
Speaker 4: my first take on it, representative of the past. This
59:49
Speaker 4: is where we grew up. This is where we were kids.
59:53
Speaker 4: And the attic is up above, remote, We usually put
59:57
Speaker 4: things in the attic from the past that we want
1:00:01
Speaker 4: to keep in case it's useful or because it carries
1:00:06
Speaker 4: memories and strong associations. So he kind of goes from
1:00:12
Speaker 4: the past into the present of helping his friend, like, okay,
1:00:17
Speaker 4: and now you're pregnant, my friend, and I'm going to
1:00:21
Speaker 4: help you with this. And then this wonderful transition to,
1:00:27
Speaker 4: oh my gosh, I almost forgot. I have a pregnant
1:00:31
Speaker 4: wife who needs me to be our own child's father.
1:00:36
Speaker 4: And that it's lovely when a shadow figure really is
1:00:42
Speaker 4: so well-developed that he or she has autonomy and the
1:00:46
Speaker 4: friend can say, I really don't need you. I release
1:00:50
Speaker 4: you into the present. I release you into the future.
1:00:53
Speaker 4: I release you into your partner and your own real fatherhood.
1:00:58
Speaker 4: It's just, this is just such a gift of a dream.
1:01:04
Speaker 3: It's so generous. One of the things that I was
1:01:09
Speaker 3: just imagining is, and thinking about my own experience as
1:01:13
Speaker 3: a boy and by childhood friends, But when two boys
1:01:16
Speaker 3: are of a certain age, they're just so thick as thieves.
1:01:19
Speaker 3: You know, they're so close and playing in the attic
1:01:23
Speaker 3: and the sharing of secrets that in his imagination, going
1:01:29
Speaker 3: back in time and remembering when the two of them
1:01:33
Speaker 3: were gestating the concept of what it will be to
1:01:37
Speaker 3: be a man. And with the birth of his child,
1:01:41
Speaker 3: he will, um, give birth to the father archetype within himself.
1:01:47
Speaker 3: That's lovely. So I think there is something that is
1:01:53
Speaker 3: nascent and being born in that young male piece that
1:01:59
Speaker 3: now he is giving birth to, and that the shadow
1:02:03
Speaker 3: figure is aligned with this process of coming forward as
1:02:09
Speaker 3: the man himself, that you were imagining you would be
1:02:13
Speaker 3: when you were 10, 11, 12 years old.
1:02:17
Speaker 2: You know, I really like what both of you said.
1:02:20
Speaker 2: That's really great. And one of the things that I
1:02:24
Speaker 2: wonder about, and Deb, I think I'm picking up a
1:02:26
Speaker 2: little bit on what you said, is.
1:02:29
Speaker 2: So for this friend to have a baby, and this
1:02:31
Speaker 2: friend is a shadow figure, and this friend is, it's
1:02:34
Speaker 2: a creative, it's fertile, whatever that part of his psyche is,
1:02:39
Speaker 2: because it's going to have a baby. And sometimes, you know,
1:02:44
Speaker 2: there can be a conflict. I'm sort of taking this
1:02:47
Speaker 2: dream as a split between a subjective and an objective
1:02:51
Speaker 2: stance and kind of assuming that the wife and the
1:02:53
Speaker 2: pregnancy refer to something actually in the outer world. And
1:02:57
Speaker 2: if we're looking at becoming a parent, especially if we're
1:03:00
Speaker 2: very conscientious, as it sounds like this person is, and
1:03:03
Speaker 2: we've had a lot of responsibility, they bought a house,
1:03:06
Speaker 2: they moved, there's a lot going on. There must be
1:03:09
Speaker 2: a lot of kind of energy going to meeting these
1:03:11
Speaker 2: outer world developments or requirements. Any part of us that
1:03:18
Speaker 2: is creative might be missing nurture. And I think I
1:03:23
Speaker 2: agree with you both that it's a real gift, this dream,
1:03:26
Speaker 2: because I think it's saying, I'm going to be okay.
1:03:29
Speaker 2: I can nurture our creative offspring in here up in
1:03:33
Speaker 2: the attic. I'm so glad to have your support, but
1:03:37
Speaker 2: I release you to go out into your real life
1:03:41
Speaker 2: and know that your creative offspring, whatever that might be,
1:03:44
Speaker 2: as we've said before, an attitude, an idea, an impulse,
1:03:48
Speaker 2: a project, an urge, it's going to be, I can
1:03:52
Speaker 2: do it. I, your shadow, I can, I got this.
1:03:56
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly.
1:03:57
Speaker 3: Well, but I think that if we change the formulation
1:04:00
Speaker 3: to the same gender figure as an image of the self,
1:04:04
Speaker 3: that may play a little bit more because the self
1:04:07
Speaker 3: does contain all of our potential. And just as you said,
1:04:12
Speaker 3: the self can be the safeguard, the protective container of
1:04:19
Speaker 3: the personality potential. Just as you were saying, Lisa, as
1:04:23
Speaker 3: he's busy with the outer world, which is kind of
1:04:25
Speaker 3: the work of the first half of life. Don't worry
1:04:28
Speaker 3: about all that self-actualizing stuff. Get your baby and your
1:04:31
Speaker 3: house and your family in order somewhere around midlife. Come
1:04:35
Speaker 3: back and we'll give birth to the next stage, the
1:04:41
Speaker 3: next potential.
1:04:43
Speaker 4: There are two potentials here.
1:04:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, inner and outer, just as you were saying, Lisa.
1:04:48
Speaker 3: I think that really captures that process.
1:04:52
Speaker 2: And both of them seem like they're doing well. So
1:04:55
Speaker 2: if you would like to be featured on a future
1:04:57
Speaker 2: Dreamography episode, do check out the link in the show
1:05:01
Speaker 2: notes to send us your intruder dreams. I think that's
1:05:05
Speaker 2: going to be a very interesting one. And remember, you'll
1:05:09
Speaker 2: also be entered into a drawing for a free copy
1:05:13
Speaker 2: of DreamWise, Unlocking the Meaning of Your Dreams. Thanks for listening.
1:05:18
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