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Dr. Nirav Shah- Segment 4 · Newsradio WGAN

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For over 2 decades, Inside Maine has been your trusted source for
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political analysis and candid conversations with Maine's most
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influential leaders, bringing you the issues that matter most,
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straight from the experts on 98.5 FM, AM 560, and wgan.com.
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And we are back on Inside Maine. It's been a packed show.
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Thank you to our guest so far, 4 candidates down, three more to
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go. And joining us now in studio, in
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person, the only major candidate I haven't spoken to yet during
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this election cycle, Doctor Nirav Shah, Democrat candidate
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for governor. Doctor Shah, nice to see you
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again. Thanks for having me in, I'm
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excited to talk. Is it weird for you that people
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know who you are, Right? Like you went from being like
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this back office health, public health guy to then like all of a
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sudden you were on TV every day. You were basically the emperor
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of the state. Is that a weird transformation?
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It's, it's absolutely weird. It is not what you go into
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public service looking to do or certainly looking for.
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So in that regard, it is definitely weird.
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At the same time, it's also really gratifying.
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Folks Remember Me from a difficult time and most folks
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Remember Me as having shown up and had their backs.
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So in that regard, it's something it's something
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heartwarming, but it's also, again, not what you expect when
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you decide to go into public service.
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Let's start there because I think a lot of people got to
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know you during that time and there are a lot of people that
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look to you to be that voice to tell people are going on.
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And then there are a lot of people who are critical of some
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of the decisions that you made, the policies that you and the
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administration put in place. When you look back at that time,
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maybe Chair one thing that you're most proud of, but then
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what's also a lesson, something that you might have done
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differently or you regret about what happened during the time?
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Absolutely. First, let me just say at a high
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level, that is exactly the kind of introspection that should be
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happening and should have happened at the national level.
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We did it after 911. There was a National Commission
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to look at what we missed and what we could have done better.
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That has not yet happened for COVID, and that is a deficit for
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all of us. That said, on my end, I've spent
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a lot of time thinking about those years.
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One of the things that I'm really proud of was a single
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episode where I was on a public radio show, a call in show, and
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which I dedicated entirely to vaccine skeptics.
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I wanted them to call in and ask their earnest questions.
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And a gentleman called in and he had a lot of really, really
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earnest questions about side effects.
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And we went back and forth for four or five minutes
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respectfully. And at the end of that exchange,
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live in front of everyone in the state of Maine.
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He said, you know what, Nirv, I think I am going to get that
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vaccine. And so that that was proof
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positive. That respectful conversation can
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actually get folks to update their priors.
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That was a really big thing. Are there areas and things that
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I would have done differently? Absolutely.
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It would be almost absurd to think that in a multiyear
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emergency, every single decision that I made was the one that I
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should have. I would make now O if I knew
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then what I know now, which one never does.
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But looking backwards for the next pandemic, I would.
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I would have approached the way we thought about schools much,
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much differently again now. That's what the benefit of
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hindsight. I didn't know that at the time.
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But again, going forward, the next time there is an airborne
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pandemic, I'm going to think a lot more carefully about
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schools. Yeah.
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And I think we're obviously seeing some of the learning
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effects of the disruption that schools had.
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We've also seen in the business climate, right?
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A lot of the decisions that were made maybe let Walmart stay
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open, but mom and pop stores had to close and many of them went
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out of business. Have you learned any on the
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economic side of things about that's informed how you're
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thinking about what comes next as you're you're approaching the
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idea of being governor? Well, yes, without a doubt.
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And some of the rationale behind those decisions was, you know,
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the larger stores have better ventilation, things of that
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nature. But the other piece that we've
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also seen is that notwithstanding that difficult
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period, Maine's recovery was still more favorable than other
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states. And that's because a lot of the
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data suggests that the the the most effective way to ensure a
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strong recovery is to get control of the disease that
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we're thinking of. That's drawing on data from
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1918. That said, again, even with even
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with those decisions, the next time we have an emergency,
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particularly a long spanning infectious disease emergency,
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we'll certainly take the economic aspects more carefully
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and take them into consideration.
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But I got to say, Maine is the oldest average state in the
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country. And So what might work in a
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younger state like Utah may not necessarily work here because of
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the higher average age of our population.
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So Speaking of decisions, the decision to run for governor is
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a big one. It's a big one personally.
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It takes a lot on your family. It's a big professional change.
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This is the first time you've run for office for anything, I
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think. What made you decide that you
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wanted to run for office and that you wanted to start here as
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the the kind of the highest office in the state of Maine?
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Yeah. There were there were two things
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that were really going on. After I came back from serving
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in the Biden administration, I knew that I wanted to stay in
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public service. I left the private sector, I
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practiced law for about 10 years, and I left the private
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sector deliberately because I wanted to dedicate the rest of
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my career to public service. So when I came back from the
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Biden administration, public service was a given.
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The other was that I wanted to find a way to continue helping
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people in Maine as best as I could on the population level,
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whether it was childhood hunger or crumbling healthcare system,
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a housing market that is going completely haywire because we
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haven't built enough. No matter the issue, I wanted to
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figure out what I could do to have the maximum positive
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impact. And so when I looked at public
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service and maximum impact here at home, the governor's office
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was one that was top of mind. Around that same time, some
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different groups of friends that approached me to think about it.
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And the more conversations I had with them and my wife, the more
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I realized that was the next step.
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Now, it's a big step. Now as governor, of course, you
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have to get along with the legislature.
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And this legislature that we've seen emerge in the last several
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cycles seems very polarized. It's very all one side.
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It's been one party control. There is some people that say
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Democrats have been in charge for the last eight years and now
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all of the campaigns are pointing to all these issues.
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It seems all the Democrats want to do is blame Trump and fight
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Trump. But there are a lot of main
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specific issues that some of the decisions made over the last
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eight years by Governor Mills and the Democrat controlled
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legislature have led to. So I guess it's a kind of a
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multi part question. Number one, if the Democrats got
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us here, why should we elect another Democrat?
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And #2 how can you work with a legislature to actually get
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things done? Because you could have the right
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vision as governor, but as I experienced working for Paul Le
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Page, legislature isn't always willing to play ball with you.
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Yep, I'm going to take the ladder of those first.
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So the working with the legislature is one of the key
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jobs that the governor faces. And as you say, right now,
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things have been fractured more so than they have from what I'm
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told in recent history, even even even up until eight years
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ago. So that's going to be a
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challenge. That said, what I have done in
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my career is bring disarate groups of folks together.
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Even the vignette that I shared with you a couple minutes ago
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about sitting down with earnest conversation, shared priorities,
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getting folks on board. So I I have done it before in
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this regard and I think I'll be well equipped to navigate some
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of those challenges. I don't want to downplay them
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because things have broken down. But all that said, I think I've
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got the background to help do it again.
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More importantly, Aaron, I do not come to this job with the 20
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or 30 years of baggage and relationship that others do.
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I am in a sense, nobody that nobody sent.
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I can call it like I see it. There will be times where the
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policy that I concur with will be ones that Democrats have was
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pushed. But there are also times, as you
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and I have discussed, where there are policies that
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Republicans are in favor of that I think are the right way to go.
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So I can call it like I see it with the best interest of
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Mainers at heart. So the emergency powers that you
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were able to exercise where the Governor Mills was during the
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pandemic have no checks on them. And I remember when I first went
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to work for Governor Lepage's senior policy advisor, one of my
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first briefings, because I was overseeing, I was overseeing
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DIVOM and I met with MIMA and the main Emergency Management
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Agency director at the time said, please don't ever use
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these powers. So we don't want people to know
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how broad and unchecked they are.
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Do you think there should be some limitations put on it
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either for legislative approval after a certain period of time
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or some other thing? Because Maine does really have
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the most expansive and most broad emergency power, the chief
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executive in the country. You're absolutely right and
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you're relative to other states. For example, in Illinois, Maine
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does at baseline, even without resorting to the emergency
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powers, Maine has a chief executive that has more
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authority than a lot of other states do.
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I think there is room to have say legislative approval or
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legislative sign off of the continuing of the emergency.
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That's something that exists in other states.
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I, I think there's something there.
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I, I worry. However, my concern rather is
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that the the way in which a legislature works is not
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situated for an emergency. They are purposely A
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deliberative body. That is how they have been
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framed. Going back to Federalist Papers,
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that was their role to dig really, really deep and be
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methodical and make sure processors respective.
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That is an important piece of our democracy.
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It is not the piece that you need in an emergency.
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And so while I'm open to something like a 90 day or 120
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day renewal, my concern with going further than that, that is
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that what the legislature is doing is different from what the
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executive branch needs to do in an emergency.
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So you've obviously had now a lot of forums and debates and
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you've gotten to meet all of the candidates running against you.
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And let's focus on the Democrats right now because that's the
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race that's coming up is the primary.
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What would you say most sets you apart from your competitors and
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what makes you the strongest candidate for the nomination?
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Great. There are three things and I'll,
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I'll try to be brief #1 is the job of governor ultimately is
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one of being a manager, being a CEO of a large bureaucracy.
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And that is what I have done in the 11 years I've been in public
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service. As a comparison point, the
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USCDC, when I was the deputy, the chief deputy director, but
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was approximately the same size in terms of number of people,
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about 27,000 compared to 30,000 at the state of Maine.
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And the USCDC had twice the budget, as does the State of
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Maine government. And I was, again, the number 2
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official there and for a while, the acting director.
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So I've already run a large organization that's comparable
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often in times of crisis, which as we just talked about
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something the next governor is going to have to do #2 I'm the
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only attorney that's running on the Democratic side.
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Funny to hear someone. Brag about being attorney.
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The good. Thing I usually down plan, I
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don't let people. Know the good thing is that
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people love lawyers and so I think that's a really important
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thing, particularly right now agree or not, but the next
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governor is going to need to know how to navigate the
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judicial branch in the era of the Trump administration to
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protect manners rights. The third thing, and you
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reference this, what I have done that the other candidates have
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not is I have really shown up. I have had more town halls.
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I have had people's backs. I did it during COVID, I've done
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it during the campaign. And I've also publicly pledged
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to continue that tradition of town halls doing twice a month,
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even when I'm governor. Yeah, no, I think that's really
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important. And honestly, when I work for
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Governor LePage, we hope that he would not do as many because
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it's exhausting for staff. But I think it's so important to
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have that mindset as a public servant that you're responsive
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to, you get feedback from you, share your perspective with
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people, they hear it from you directly, and they give you
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feedback. I think it's very.
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Important and Aaron and and good.
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I want to be clear, I'm not talking press conferences.
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I am talking public events where Mainers are coming up to me.
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I have the. Slings and arrows from.
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Yeah. And it's not easy.
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It is not easy. But you know what I will say,
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Aaron, some of the most memorable exchanges that I've
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had at these town halls have been from conservatives and
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Republicans who have said, what are you going to do to lower my
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taxes? Why are you talking about these
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folks? Why aren't you focused on this?
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And those very earnest questions are what really get.
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That's what I think about a lot. Well, and I think it's what a
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lot of people, they get into their bubble and they only hear
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from the people that they agree with who are naturally inclined
11:54
to support them. And they don't get to hear the
11:55
other side. They're they're they're kind of
11:57
immune to it. You're listening to INSIDE
11:58
Maine. I'm your host, Aaron Chadbourn.
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We're talking to Doctor Nirav Shah.
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He's a Democrat candidate for governor.
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Speaking of some of those hard questions or policies.
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One of the criticisms of the Mills administration has been
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some of these allegations of Medicaid fraud and that the
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Department of Health and Human Services here in Maine or the
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attorney general's office or the governor's office hasn't taken
12:18
those claims seriously. You know, she says there's been
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1 referral for criminal prosecution when people there,
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there seem to be examples that people don't think past the
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straight face test. You've been on the inside there.
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Do you think the fraud is as rampant as some people are
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concerned about? And what would a Shaw
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administration do to crack down on that?
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Good, Aaron. This is an area where I think
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Democrats need to heed what Republicans are saying and tap
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more into the angst that people have.
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Any allegation of fraud is very serious without a doubt, and the
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attorney in me wants to make sure that those are investigated
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and if appropriate, prosecuted or handled in the appropriate
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manner. That said, I think there was
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some contextual points that are really, really helpful here.
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According to the federal government, mains rate of
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improper payments is already about 25% lower than that of
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other states. The other is that even just
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within the state of Maine, there are 4 entities on Maine Care at
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OFI elsewhere in state government, to say nothing of
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the AG's office, all of which are involved in the process of
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investigating and if necessary prosecuting fraud.
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I have not seen any suggestion that any of these allegations
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was swept under the rug or anything of that nature.
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Everything that I have read and that I've seen suggests that the
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allegations were made, they have been investigated and where
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appropriate, were sent for prosecution.
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More broadly, even though I agree every ounce of fraud
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should be investigated, we should really take that
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seriously. I think there's a lot of other
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fraud out there that we don't really address.
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I'm deeply concerned, for example, about the ways in which
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senior members of the Trump administration are have have an
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uneasy relationship with cryptocurrency entities.
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I think the STOCK Act should be passed without doubt so that no
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member of Congress can trade on inside information.
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So let's go with fraud, but let's make sure we take it
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seriously, not selectively. Yeah, no, I think a lot of
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people are are replies that that hasn't passed on on both sides.
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No agreed should be. Taken seriously, the other
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criticism on the Mills administration in some of the
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the practices have to do is proliferation of no bid
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contracts. And it seems like, you know,
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Governor LePage used to every single one would make it on his
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desk. There would have to be a
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justification for him. He personally signed off on them
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in the Mills administration. They've kind of gone crazy and
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the Mills administration hasn't been willing to provide them in
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compliance with the freedom of access law laws to to share with
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them. What do you think can be done
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about? That good having been having run
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2 state health departments, the USCDC procurement is a major
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part of what any executive in government's job is.
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It's maddeningly difficult, but that's it exists for a reason.
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Not just to protect public public expenses, but honestly to
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ensure that when the government does something, it's being done
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on the up and up. I have signed off on no bid
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contracts or sole source as they are called.
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But that was largely during the pandemic when we needed
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something done quickly and we knew that there was only one
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person who could do it and they could start that day.
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So I have signed off on them. I don't tend to use the term no
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bid. What they really are I've.
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Signed off on them too. I overhauled Maine's procurement
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process when I was working for Governor LePage, partially
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because all of the departments and agencies want to do their
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own thing, want to play by their own rules, don't want someone
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looking at it. And there's some other
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considerations that need to go in, in terms of and it's a
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sophistication, right? Like what happens?
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Do they have enough reinsurance? Do they have you know can they
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can they, are they are they sourcing or inside Main?
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What I what I would say, Aaron, is #1 the baseline, the default
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position should never be a sole source.
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It should always be a last resort and generally again, in a
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setting of an emergency, hence why I, I'm a fan of the
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emergency powers. And then secondly, as to the
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point about the FOA, right, my, my view is much different.
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I mean, there's a lot of criticisms of, of the way I
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handled things during the pandemic, but I don't think
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there is a criticism that we did not comply with FOA request or
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anything. And that is, I think, a pattern
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that I hope you can see. Do you think we can strengthen
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the laws? Because Maine has one of the
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weakest laws in the country when it comes to that.
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I, I have hesitations there because a lot of the reasons why
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documents can't be, can't be actionable under foe or given
16:22
over are for reasons of privacy or ongoing investigations and
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things like that. I, I, I don't, I don't know that
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I foresee big changes in Maine's fellow laws.
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It's just. Largely A voluntary compliance
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law right now. Like if you want to comply, you
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can. If you don't, the maximum
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penalty is a $500 fine that gets paid by the public entity that
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violated it. Speaking of, someone who was
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working with the public agencies violated it and we just paid the
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$500 fine and moved on. I like there should be
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consequences. That's fair that that is
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reasonable and and certainly at the federal level with Freedom
16:52
of Information, there are absolutely consequences and
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there are. Independent entities that like
16:56
administer it so that you you don't get to decide whether your
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record is responsive or not. Well, the federal level there is
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still the the senior executive still gets to sign off on it or
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not, but but I think on that respect actually making it more
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of a requirement than it's something that you can get
17:13
around to there's I think there's absolutely room there.
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So final question, I think we have time for I went to Harvard
17:18
Law School. Elizabeth Warren was a professor
17:20
there when I was there, and she was a professor of consumer
17:23
finance and bankruptcy. And she was amazing at it.
17:26
She literally wrote the textbook off it.
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And she's an amazing teacher. And when she ran for Senate,
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everyone was like, well, she knows a lot about that, but what
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are the rest of her policy positions?
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Because what are they? And it seems to many of us that
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she didn't necessarily have them well developed.
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And so she just turned to her socialist Harvard professor
17:41
friends and filled in the gaps. For people who are concerned
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that you're very deep in public health and public policy there
17:48
and are wondering what the rest of Doctor Shaw's kids are going
17:51
to be informed by, how do you address?
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That good? Well, the first thing I would
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ask them to do is take a look at our website, shawfrommaine.com.
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And under the issues tab there are detailed policy documents
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about a number of topics, not just healthcare, but the
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environment, criminal justice, education, a number of different
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topic areas. But in part, the other thing I
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would say, Aaron, is in addition to having gone to medical
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school, though I did not practice, I'm an attorney first
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and foremost. I went to law school practice
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for a number of years focused on cases that were on appeal.
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A lot of them were antitrust cases, which was professor,
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Senator Warren's area as well. And so I've dealt with a number
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of different legal and policy issues, not just healthcare, but
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even if it were just healthcare, that's about 1/4 of our economy.
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And so not a bad place to start. And a whole bunch of our budget.
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This is Ben Doctor Neeraj Shah, Democrat candidate for governor.
18:43
Thank you so much for joining us.
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If you get the nomination, would love to have you back and if
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your governor certainly as well. We look forward to those
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conversations. I look forward to it.
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Thank you. When we come back, we'll be
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joined by independent candidate for governor Rick Bennett.
18:56
And we'll close out the show with Democrat Troy Jackson.
18:59
I'm Aaron Chadbourne. This is inside Maine.