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with M&G's Laura Brown · Two in Twenty

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Two in Twenty.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Tweet Field.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the host of these podcasts.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um today I'm talking to Laura Brown, who's the CMO and head of experience at MG Investments.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: I've long admired Laura and the work that she's doing at MG, really bringing personality-led, really creative initiatives to the market.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: So today we talk a bit about where that comes from, her early career and strategy, and how that's sort of helped bring a number of stakeholders along with these really bold and brave initiatives and helping create that commercial impact within the business.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: So straight to my conversation with her.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Laura, hi, thank you so much for joining me today.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe before we jump into questions, as it's become customary, you could just give us a little snapshot of your career to date and then we can get stuck in.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: So um I've been at MIG for uh sort of since I was a graduate.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I joined on the grad scheme and so spent a bit of time around all parts of the business.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh quite a lot of that in strategy, um, sort of across and particularly distribution strategy, working with the teams there.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh before more recently coming into marketing.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um I also had a bit of time away post-children, uh, so it took about sort of four years out, but in that time started a confectionery startup and did some other bits and pieces.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, a bit of a so M and G, but with a bit of a gap, which is yes, which was fun.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Always busy, always with ideas, which we'll come into.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess maybe to start with a question I usually finish with.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to get your view around what success looks like for marketing.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in financial services, but maybe it should just be for for marketing, you know, and and and um the objectives that uh we have set.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think you're uh definitely right that it's marketing in general, isn't it, rather than financial services?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes we kind of financial services ourselves a bit uh rather than a good license.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I almost it sort of qualifies it to be slightly different from everyone else's marketing.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think, well, actually the standards ideally would be the same, but I mean I think for me it's it's having a commercial impact, right?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's that's ultimately why we're here we have to kind of uh sort of justify the activity that we do and the impact that we're having on the business in terms of supporting growth and retaining clients.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that that is you know the simple simple bit.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think there are nuances to that in terms of the role it can have internally as well as externally, but you know, clearly the primary impact has got to be that commercial one.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Funny enough, I was uh listening to something the other day that was saying just around creativity generally, that almost like the more boring the industry, kind of the more creative they feel like they have to be.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's like it feels like the bread sector or the sort of tea sector, even insurance sector is getting more and more creative, and yet maybe sort of the more whizzy or dynamic the industry, like phones or cars or what have you, like almost like the less creative they are.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like somehow like the investment industry kind of gets caught in the middle, it's kind of boring, but doesn't really do the creativity.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I I always you know, maybe getting better at it, I should say.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: So and I and I know I and I I love the creativity you're you've been bringing into M and G, but it feels like it's always been a business that's valued marketing, is invested in it, and sort of seen it as a driver of growth.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd love to know what you feel is like at the center of that.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you've obviously been there a number, you know, a number of years.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think in part it's the reason it's because it's seen as part of what we do is because it's come from the investors historically, as in the understanding of the importance of communicating with clients and engaging with clients in a way that sort of makes sense.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, think about uh Bon Vigilante's launch 20 years ago, you know, that very much came from you know the CIO of fixed income wanting to do a blog and connect with the audience in that way rather than it being a marketing idea artificially imposed on the investment teams.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we, you know, honestly were hugely lucky in the fact that we had that that the business had has had you know amazing communicators, but also people who really care about the clients and and see it through that communication lens and are probably also quite engaged with the world in the way that other industries and other things are happening, which is why you know we had a blog very early relative to others and and things like that, rather than kind of coming to it late.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I'd say it's that authenticity that's really driven it historically, and because we then had success and brand visibility and everything, everyone really understands why it's important, so it it it kind of created that flywheel.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: It could have quite brought that sort of momentum with it and the sort of maybe openness to experimentation.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: I I do remember I was thinking back to you know the beginning of my career in-house and looking in envy really at MNG's sort of market positioning and market marketing, I should say.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess I was just thinking, you know, it's easy to not easy, but it's easier, isn't it, to kind of bring everybody along in this sort of groundswell when you know we're all in an upmarket and you know assets are gathering and you're seeing that success, and everybody loves to attach themselves to success, don't they?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, as with all markets and most businesses, you know, there is always a sort of some level of volatility or or sort of repositioning that has to happen, a recalibration of the business strategy.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like kind of maybe you know, naturally through the decades, M and G's had a little bit of that.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: How have you managed to bring, maintain, or or sort of pull the business through in the last few years from a marketing perspective, get it back on the front foot, back to, you know, if that is indeed the kind of what's what you feel you've been doing?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was one one of my sort of objectives when I took over the marketing team some three years ago was to sort of bring it back into the asset management business and connect it to what the business was trying to do and and uh restore the brand was a very key key objective.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we had very high brand rankings, visibility and awareness across across Europe um and the UK in particular, and that had declined.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: So interestingly, when we then did the sort of work on looking at the brand proposition and we um and we sort of thinking about that, uh it was a bit of a like pushing on an open door.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you'd sort of go around and talk to the fund management team, and they'd be like, yes, absolutely, we really want um the brand to be visible, we understand the importance of it.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: So we actually I think had it very easy in that we didn't have to make the case for the importance of brand.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: The piece of work I was really keen on was making sure that we made the case for how we then do it, that it had to be through creativity and trying some different things because we needed to do it in a really cost-effective way.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: It was yes, I think you know the the I don't know, the mutuity of the understanding of the value of brand is high in the business.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and actually because we also had the history of uh doing some things in a little bit more of an innovative way through some of the Bon Vigilantes pieces of of the past and and and so on, we had a bit more of the um internal sponsorship to give things a bit of a go that were perhaps a little bit more unusual.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think coming from the strategy side, do you do you think that helped, you know, in terms of starting those conversations from a different place, having the sort of stakeholder relationships that you naturally had through the kind of the kind of the strategy start point?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um do you think that helped or what was um I think so?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I think I think where when I when I sort of came in, I was quite conscious that I needed to have some I suppose how I would approach it.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: So strategy project would be, you know, understand how it works, you know, and read read the literature and read the you know, read the science behind it.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I spent a bit of time really looking into that and and understanding what would really work.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I had the data to help me make the case for the things that I think I thought we needed to do.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: And also to really make sure I I was, you know, I I was had uh conviction behind that approach.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's sort of strategy training probably helped me in that.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then as you say, the sort of stakeholder relationships I had um through that, um, both as you know, sort of in the roles I've had, but also just the nature of being in the business a long time, um, that also creates the ability to go to talk to some of the sort of key individuals and go, thinking of this, what do you think in terms of the the sort of landscape?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: But then when we talked about doing I don't know, comic books and other bits and pieces, the way that I presented that was very much on a the commercial drivers for doing it in this way are the fact that it will have much more impact.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: The higher creative will cut through better.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: There are fine various studies that show you that, right?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it was more a matter of just using that as the means rather than focusing necessarily on we're gonna do this creative, it was just we're gonna do this because it makes sense commercially.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a slightly different argument than presenting the pictures and going, Well, this is our new campaign.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was this is the front, this is why we cannot just you know buy a share of voice, we need to make sure we cut through that we're gonna do it in an effective way, get everyone going, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes complete sense, and then go, and by the way, it happens to be a comic or a unusual video in style of a rom-com.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe you mean are there any uh more examples like that?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because it feels like, well, again, the kind of the best, like the biggest danger, isn't it, is sort of getting that sponsorship, getting that budget, and then being unforgettable as a brand, you know, like kind of go through all of that work and then you know the risk of being bland and um not being bold enough.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think not enough time is spent thinking about that wasted budget and risk.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I feel like you are one of few businesses that kind of recognizes that personality cuts through, that the the art of surprise and debunking assumptions is the way to kind of achieve so much cut-through.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of think of so much of you doing the kind of paddle, the kind of ampersand, the dream machine.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think could you give a bit more around how like you've injected that personality, got everybody really comfortable with that?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the really key thoughts behind it is about focusing on is the client.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it in the UK the IFAs get about 80,000 marketing communications every year.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you think of it out in that corner, it's like how why on earth are they opening our email, coming to our you know, all that sort of stuff.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: So start from that point of view, we just could we don't have a right to attention, we we need to you know be interesting, and so that is the that's the thesis, is like we need to be interesting in what you know, whatever kind of way that applies.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it might be from uh you know, be interesting so people actually engage uh with the content.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we do a lot of that, you know, that in Ampersand to doing the videos so that people actually kind of go, oh, that sounds interesting.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the meeting there's a reason to actually engage and look at the thought leadership.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: What we don't do is kind of go and mess with the the content, it is serious and you know we need to build trust and and credibility in that, and clearly that that's important.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: But what we can do is make that a pleasurable experience to consume.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: So thinking about design in that and and almost setting the standards, saying, why should our standards be any different from any other media you might experience in any other in the room?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like now I wouldn't say we we do that universally in everything that we do.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't quite worked it out for a fact sheet and maybe that's all right, right?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: As in what the fact interesting in a fact sheet is just being clear and easy to read, and you know, it doesn't need to do those sorts of things, but in other areas you do need to make sure you're doing the right thing.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, it's it's really that sort of client angle that's helped galvanize that view about interesting, and that can mean distinctive, it can mean just being really interesting, having a point of view, so that it it can mean lots of different things.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: And to your point, you know, for some of those more table stakes or hygiene factors for kind of just the information that people are trying to access, you don't want to frustrate people by trying to get sort of get creativity gets in the way of the kind of accessibility.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a real balance, and I think we still find we still find that actually you know we're we're doing things and then sometimes you know we just have to make sure we keep ourselves honest and not getting carried away through that that process.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: But it almost the tension between those two things is a good one because I'd rather that was happening and we've gone slightly too far and then we go right okay next time I mean to make it just a little bit a little bit less than I than we just go, okay.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, it it's the same as everyone else's.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it's yeah, you're not gonna get it right every time, but you definitely can push it, I think, a bit more.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that you know, both taking a bit of risk.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, and I guess again, just trying to differentiate between risk and reckless, you know.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was thinking, I was hearing talking to somebody about that recently, and that you know, getting comfortable with risk, like if we if we just stay comfortable, then you're gonna be quite disappointed, probably, by the results, you know, like you're gonna end up feeling regret, whereas a little risk to try something different versus I mean, reckless kind of is is something completely different, and I think we can sometimes just sort of muddy the two a little bit.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean there's um a really good uh sort of interview with Greg Hahn at Mischief like on the untened CMO podcast this week.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: He talks, he talks, doesn't he, about um the biggest risk is taking no risk almost like being forgettable is the biggest risk.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think if you look at it in that way, actually the downside of safe is bigger than the risk of doing that.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I think it it requires the business to give you that permission over time to be able to do that.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's necessarily a sort of simple yeah, obviously you just want, you know, you're suddenly gonna leap into something very, very crazy.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I think you can try you can do that in a in a steady way.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: I look back on some of the things I thought were really like, oh my goodness, I you know, sleepless nights right there right in the beginning when we were trying to do some things.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And now I think we wouldn't even we wouldn't even talk about that now.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Dream Machine we did a couple of years in, but we had the idea.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Alex Alex Matchin, my co-host, he had you know talked to me about that within the first couple of months of me taking over like the marketing team.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: So but we were like, it's we're not ready yet.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: We're not so these are things that when you do it, not that you fully manage.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: I guess there's also to your point, there's also an element of risk or exposure within the business that you individually are taking.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you are bringing these stakeholders along, staking a claim on sort of what's gonna help the business kind of create that impact, create that sort of cut-through.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's um there's a lot of kind of personal bravery that goes into these types of projects too.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I just wonder whether you could touch on like have there been any sort of cr critical decisions that you look back on now, any defining moments in terms of your career and where you are today and how you've sort of trusted yourself to to take those kind of bigger leaps, kind of you know, to the step, you know, beyond the peer group, you know, in terms of how their marketing that is.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean I I think definitely leaving and doing a startup, doing my own thing, um massively contributed to that sort of change of mindset.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think both sort of not being in a kind of like in a corporate job with an easily describable this is what I do, I think that in itself breaks your sort of I am my job connection, which I think we you know, I certainly you know certainly had before then.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think having you know responsibility over you know brand packaging, I don't know, and for you know, hygiene in the kitchen, all these sorts of things.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, like you you are responsible for all of your all of the decisions, and that's terrifying, but quite freeing in some ways, and it gives you a bit of confidence about okay, well I can actually do this and I can you know these are things you know generate some PR or I can do whatever it might be.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that process and then coming back in to M and G um I think I think just gave me a bit of like not what's the worst that can happen, but just a bit of like if I believe this is what we should do, I'll just trust myself and have a go doing it.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that was another theme, wasn't it, from the sort of podcast you were mentioning around just you know, if I let go of a bit of the fear, what would I be doing?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: And sort of, I guess, unlocking or unleashing yourself from being inhibited by certain institutional mindsets or processes or what have you, and just industry norms, right?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Which is you know completely understandable and uh and is it is sometimes challenging to do that if you feel like you're the only one.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I think because of the way that the business feels and believes about marketing, there are you know absolutely people who want to engage.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I wouldn't want to say I felt did feel nervous when we were doing some of the things, but it wasn't a way that I thought I thought, you know, I I sort of felt it will be okay.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: It will be okay.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think I don't know, I don't know if I went into a different business to do that again and whether that would be possible, like whether it's possible, you have to judge what's that for your audience, but I still think you should work out how what it how you do it.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and I guess also I was thinking given the relationships you have and have built over your career M and G, like and and then again people embracing um and advocating for the things you're doing, you kind of create all these ambassadors that allow the sort of ripple effect to kind of happen when you know everybody starts to kind of believe in brand and recognize their role in helping the kind of the brand to flourish, and so that's probably been another lovely magnifying factor that you've been able to pull through.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is would you say definitely, and yeah, no, I think so.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we have you know, people wanting to be in the videos or you know, wanting to be paddle man.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, our mascot.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: You wouldn't believe some of the people who've been in that costume, because I think people think you know it's an it's fun, but they understand why they're doing it.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it sort of has that um yeah, really yeah, uh sort of positive internal impact that create it's sort of a self-fulfilling kind of uh prophecy about the whole it's gonna work because we're all in it and we all believe in it and all that sort of stuff.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Still got some targets on my list for future videos, I'm sure internally, but we'll see.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: See how far you can take.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: See if I can convince them.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um Laura, fantastic.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: So lovely to get it get stuck into it.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is that just conscious of rounding out our conversation, you know, and a few of those sort of key themes coming through around trying to be bolder and sort of you know bringing a business along with you, bringing kind of creating sort of more personality?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of what are the kind of tips, I guess, for those who are listening, thinking about their careers, thinking about how they create impact within their brand strategy, or even more broadly, just within their roles and the sort of stakeholder management piece.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think thinking about the client is is always going to be key, and understanding the clients and being commercially minded in that, I think, will will always help.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think being yourself, I think these things make quite a lot of difference.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean that as a at a company level as well as an individual level.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think that authenticity is an important part of how we should be thinking about how we engage with our clients because they're seeing they are seeing it, it's just they may not be seeing it everywhere.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So so we need you need to think about how you can make that more universal.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think you know, just stay curious, do all the reading, be an expert, don't limit yourself to just thinking about financial services marketing, which is great, but there are other, you know, there's best practice, there's inspiration coming from everywhere.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: We might not, you know, you know, be able to do a kind of World Cup ad with I know Susan Boyle, which of gosh, that'd be wonderful.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but you know, you could kind of go well, like how far could we take it?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, these are the sorts of things that you you know you can always get inspiration from.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd I'd say that you know look outside, and it's always quite a useful, useful touch point.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's brilliant.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's been so lovely to talk to you.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think you've somehow managed to be around the 20 minute mark.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's been great to chat to you.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Absolute pleasure.