Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 312 - The Oswald Puzzle W/ Larry Hancock

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JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 312 - The Oswald Puzzle W/ Larry Hancock · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Remember like Bob Clark, Rob Clark, Joe Bordelli.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: In the Heart of Dallas, Rerigons and fouls, tell shadows, mysteries.
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: And sold but truth is obscured in the depths of
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: the night, The Lone Gun and podcast Shed The Flickering Life.
• 0:29
  Speaker 4: Section one oh seven of the Fair Use Act of
• 0:32
  Speaker 4: nineteen seventy six provides protection to use copyrighted material for research, analysis,
• 0:38
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• 0:41
  Speaker 2: We hear at Loose.
• 0:41
  Speaker 4: Moose Productions reserve that right now, on with the show.
• 0:46
  Speaker 4: Here's Joe b and the Triple b Hey Andrew Dean
• 0:49
  Speaker 4: House things in Texas.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Everything is going to hail down here in Dustice Jez.
• 0:57
  Speaker 5: Show Me, show Me Many and Joey Rock, Donyn Me
• 1:06
  Speaker 5: and Joey, Joey and Jim Man, j Me and Joey Rock, Cocky,
• 1:12
  Speaker 5: Joe Brad Shine, how sekend and.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: F and here we go.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: And here we go? What is up? Everybody? Welcome to
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: the show. This is episode number three hundred and twelve,
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  Speaker 2: and we are pleased and have a very special guest
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: with us this evening. Uh the esteemed author and researcher
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  Speaker 2: Uh an author of various books, so that someone would
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: have talked November Patriots, the Sign of Invasions, Series in Denial,
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Unidentified Nexus, Surprise Attack. I could go on and on, Larry,
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: but I think everybody here knows who you are. Larry Hancock.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the show, sir.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: It's great to be back. And I got to tell you, guys,
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: I always love that introduction. The music is music is great.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Yes, our buddy Roger wrote that especially for us, composed it,
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: wrote it. It's always good because you know they'd love
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: to hand out copyright strikes around here for using other
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: people's music. So that's our music, written specifically for us,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: and thankfully we don't get our little hands slapped when
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: we play it. So yes, Larry, welcome to the show man.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: We've finally got you on here. I know you've been
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: on a Chuck's Show, Doug Show. We were on Doug
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Show together one time, and we've been talking to you
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: for a little while behind the scenes. And you finally
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: have another book coming out the beginning of next year
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: in January, called The Eye Wall Puzzle, and I believe
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: you are are you? Are you presenting at Lancer this year?
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: I am David Boylan did the book with me, and
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: we're both presenting at Lancer gotcha.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: So it was Joe and Doug. They'll be there as well.
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I wish I was going to be there in person.
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: I'll be doing it remote this year, and I'll be
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: moderating the conference Facebook page. But all things considered, after
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: you know, twenty years in Dallas in person, I need
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: a break every now and then.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you were you know, I first met you
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: at the conference last year and you were swarmed everywhere
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: you went.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: He's a very popular guy.
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: Yes, besides with the book this year, David's younger and
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: he's faster and anyway, so he'll be there in person.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, Larry, you know, when I was putting
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: the graphics for the show together and I you know,
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: I googled your name to trying to find a good
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: picture of you, and you put in Larry Hancock, author
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: and this is the first picture that shows up. I'm
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: sure you know that you have a rhythm and blue
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: soul singer with the same name from the seventies or
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: early eighties, apparently with a very good fashion sense.
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: You know I have, I should do that. I have
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: not listened to him. I was just going to say, boy,
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: I would I would trade for being that young for sure,
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: without a doubt, you know.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: All right, So let's get back to your book, Larry.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: I know you've written a lot of books. What spurned
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: you to write this book about Oswald in particular?
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: I think what triggered this was I've written about the assassination,
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: a huge amount about deal Plaza, the attack, the cover up.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: You know, so I spent two three decades on that,
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: and you know, written for books really specifically dealing with that,
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: three editions of someone would have talked Nexus and then
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: Tipping Point, which dialed down to the attack itself. And
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: I'm kind of like, well, okay, I have done this,
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: everything that I've dealt with for you know, thirty years
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: plus I've dealt with but you know, it just occurs
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: to you kind of at the end, Lee Harvey Oswald
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: was you know, in all of this, he was involved
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: in all this. What did I say about him? So
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: I actually went back and looked at because I never
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: wrote about Oswald per se. He was kind of always
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: an artifact within everything else. You know, he's just he's
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: he's treated, you know, not as the focus. The focus
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: was the assassination and then the focus was the cover up?
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: But what about Lee Harvey Oswald? And I started reading
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: some of the things that I had written and someone
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: would have talked especially, and I went, you know, did
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: I really research that? Did I really investigated or did
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: I just write it? And what I found was far
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: too many times I had taken what someone else, you know,
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: credible authors, people that I, you know, I trusted at
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: the time, and more or less repeated what they'd said
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: without thinking about it in any depth. And then I
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: remembered conversations I'd had. Someone would say, well, was was
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: in intelligence asset in Japan? And I would go, well, probably,
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: but I never really studied that. I never really dug
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: into it the way I dug into other things. And
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: so after thinking about that for a while, it piqued
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: my curiosity and it's went, you know, I've applied so
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: much time and research to other aspects of this. What
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: would happen if I did the same thing to Lee
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: Rvy Oswell? Where would I end up? Would I end
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: up saying the same things I had said earlier? Because
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: in the interim I spent years researching and learning how
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: the CIA really operated, how the FBI really operated, what
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: intelligence practices really were. I met people like Jack Swhyke,
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: who had been who had been Marie Encounter in intelligence
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: chief at Atsugi in Japan, beginning right after Oswall was there,
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: who could tell me how things worked in Japan? How
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: did things work in the club scene, the bar scene,
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: how did you guys surveil at it? How does that
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: match with what we've been saying about Lee Harvey Oswell?
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: And so basically it was sanity testing myself. Did I
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: make over generalizations? Did I make assumptions? And that was
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: the trap. Once you start asking those sounds kind of
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: questions and you start answering them, what started out as
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: like a fifty page monograph is now four hunderd page book.
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: You know, that's just the way it works.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember, I remember when you said, yeah, this
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: is gonna be a little monograph, you know, maybe one
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: hundred pages. And then when I pre ordered to ask
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: a four hundred and what thirty or forty pages? I
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: was like, well, okay, even better, you know, even better,
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: because you know, when you're talking about Oswald, you know,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: it is a popular assumption to figure based on some
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: of the things that he did, because we have no
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: concrete proof that he was ever working for the CIA
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: in any capacity. Nor do we have any concrete proof
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: that he was ever working for the FBI or an informant.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: Now you know, there are people who have stated that
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: he was, but again we have no documentation, no hard
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: concrete proof that he was, a lot of people assume
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: these things, and I'm guessing you know that's some of
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: the kind of things that you were looking into.
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, those are. We've had a lot of people
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: it's kind of like anecdotal. All right, I'm not again,
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: it's to anecdotally. You need sources and you need information
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: from somewhere. But then the secret of a lot of
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: this or not the secret, but the practice, the way
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: history works is you've got to have corroboration, and if possibly,
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: you've got to have corroboration from multiple points. And then
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: does that fit with other things? Does it make sense
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: or is it anomalous? You know, anomalies things that are
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: strictly outside of the pattern are interesting. And you got
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: to look at him, but you have to wait. You know,
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: we do have years and years and years of Oswell's behavior.
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: We have his own writing. Oswell was not unlike the
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: warrant commission would like you to pray. He talked. He
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: talked a lot. He talked to a lot of people
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: over time. He wrote, he wrote a lot. It's Oswell
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: in his own words, is not He wrote to his mother,
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: he wrote to his brother, he wrote to in nineteen
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: sixty two, nineteen sixty three. He was in constant communications
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: with his friends back in Russia.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: And all these other people well as.
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: Well as organizations, you know. You know, so it's not
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: like he wasn't in communication. And we have a body
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: of that as evidence. And no, I don't believe all
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: of that was created after the fact that that's just
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: sort of no, no, that that that was real. One
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: of the things that makes it especially fascinating is in
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: doing this book, we actually went back and looked at
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: the Dallas Police archives, which are now with Dallas Metropolitan's website,
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: and looked at the stuff that had been collected from
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: Oswell's belongings. And the guy was a pack rat. He
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: kept receipts for things. He didn't just correspond with the
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: Socialist Workers Party. He kept his respeat a seat for
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: his subscription.
• 10:54
  Speaker 5: You know.
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: He he truly was a pack rat. And it's kind
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: of amazing that they just dumped out boxes of stuffed
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: and photographed and I'm not sure that they ever used it.
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: But uh, he's saved copies of his his materials that
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: provide us historical record. In fact, it's one of the
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: best historical records you're going to probably find a history,
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: but one that was there hardly anybody uses. Yeah, it's
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: kind of dull, you know, but it gives a source
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: for a lot of corroboration, you know. That's that you
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: can go back and say, oh, yeah, yes he did
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: subscribe to these magazines and he kept copies, and yes
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: he paid for him and yeah he was a cheap
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: skate and he might not have bought Marina something, but
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: he did. He did order books from Russia. Yeah, yes
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: he did. So to back the question, it's yeah, a
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: lot of people have claimed things about Oswald, So then
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: the question is we got to test those. It's not
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: sufficient just to write about what they said.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: In particularly, let me, I wanted to ask you about
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: one letter in particular that he wrote. I believe it
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: was too VT Lee of the Fair Play for Cuba
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: Committee on August the first, and in that letter to him,
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: he had stated that I believe that he had gotten
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: a office for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, that
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: he was starting a chapter, and that he had gotten
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: involved in a scuffle with the police. But actually none
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: of that had happened yet. That actually didn't happen until
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: you know, over a week later. What do you make
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: of a letter like that?
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: What of what I make of that is Oswell was
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: can I put this? Oswell was always trying to sell himself.
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: I mean, by that time Oswell had already demonstrated for
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in Dallas. Oswell had
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: already been in correspondence with VT Lee from Dallas and
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: they mailed him materials. But at time he wrote that letter,
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: I think I remember the dates right. He had already
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: been leafleting on the docks near the carrier Wasp, and
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: so he had a plan. What I really think of
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: that letter is what he's doing is telling VT Lee
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: what he intends to do, and he's selling it because
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: he wants VT Lee to buy into it, which Lee
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: does not do by the way. He so I think
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: he's Oswald. This is part of the problem with dealing
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: with Oswald. We who don't believe that he was involved
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: in the assassination. Want him to be a good guy.
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: You know, we like him, you know, we want to
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: be a good guy, and he was just taking advantage
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: of On the other hand, provably, Oswald lies about things
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: at times, he puts he puts false information into job applications.
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: I mean in New Orleans he list one of his
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: references as sergeant Hydell. Okay, uh, you know there is
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: and there's no Sergeant Hydell. You know when he when he.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Talks Quickly down there after he got arrested, and you
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: know whether he he asked for an FBI or they
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: just showed up. But if you read that interview with
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: quickly in Oswald, he tells a lot of lies in
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: that interview. It's just like, wow, you know, why would
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: he do that?
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: Well, we address that in the book. We spent a
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: lot of time on that interview in the book and
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: why he would do that, and what the net result was,
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: and quite frankly, whether the fact that that might have
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: gotten Oswell actually literally considered as a p s I
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: by the FBI. I would offer that for a period
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: of two or three weeks he was probably on the
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: list from the burious as a potential subversive informant because
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: he was I mean, if you go back to that
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: instant instant, he was informing to the FBI about what
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: appeared to be a clandestine FPCC chapter, not a public chapter,
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: a chapter that scheduled its meetings only by telephones, met
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: only in holmes whose names were not available. Only the
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: chapter leader knew who was in it. This is the
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: sort of thing that should drive the FBI nuts, and
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: in fact did drive them nuts to a certain extent,
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: because they were tasked. The FPCC was on their tasking list,
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: specifically at the New Orleans office. So yeah, we dive
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: into that very deeply, Yes we do. But I guess
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: the point I'm trying to make is Osweald was not
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: squeaky cleaned when he applied for the job at the
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: Texas school Book Depository. Happened to recall what his last
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: job that he listed was. It was with the United
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: States Marines. Not quite exactly true. And so there are Oswald.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: You can't rely on Oswald to be telling the total
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: one hundred percent proof all the time. Just didn't happen.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And and to your point, Larry, I think one
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: of the mistakes that I made early on was I
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: I wasn't consistent with my assumptions about Oswald. I would
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: put him as an asset in this situation, and then
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: in that situation I put him as a patsy. And
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: it's there's a lot more to it, and it's just
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: a topic that is so complicated. And of course it's
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: his birthday today. I think he'd be eighty five and
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: a very appropriate time to have you come on to
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: preview the book. But you know, we did an episode
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: a few months ago on analyzing the statements of Oswalt's
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: marine buddies and like Daniel Powers, Nelson, Dell god Thornley
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: a little bit, although Thornley didn't know him for that
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: long I think like three months. Yeah, uh and and
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: and we have been kind of kind of teasing this
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: and it's very interesting and and to your point, we
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: have to look for consistency because if you can pick,
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: like nitpick any statements about Oswalt and and fit that
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: into your narrative, right, I'm sure you've you've dealt with
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: this going And so one of the questions I want
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: to know is, like, how did you like determine which
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: people that came in touch with Oswalt how did you
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: put weight on them compared to others, because I think
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: there's like fifty marines and you know there's a few
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: that knew him. Of course, you have the demorent shields
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: and things like that. So how did you weigh.
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: That in terms of a couple of different things. For
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: first of all, for background, chronology has a lot to
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: do with it. Who said what when? That's always extremely important,
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: you know. And because the chronology everything is situational. Everybody
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: makes statements according to what's going on with them at
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: the time, and their statements are going to be different
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: when they're in front of a commission being given to
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: deposition on record, as compared to when they might have
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: just been talking to a friend. You know. Even Marina
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: Oswald's statements before she goes in and she's secured by
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: her representative, by her commission liaison that she's not going
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: to be prosecuted for anything. Her representative literally says, now
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: that Marina understands that she's not going to be charged
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: with anything, she feels comfortable with telling the truth. Well,
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: in the real world, that's the way life works. I mean,
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: I got to tell you, I've given hundreds of pages
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: of legal depositions myself, and you know, you could be
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: very cautious with things when you're giving depositions that if
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: you were just talking to friends about, Oh that happened,
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: and it's another story. So but to get back to
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: your question, a lot of it is contextual. When did
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: they say it under what circumstances or they say it,
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: were they under any particular pressures at the time, And
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: how does that map with their other statements, Plus how
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: does it map with what other people were saying at
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: the same time. You know, again, it gets back to
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: that anomalous thing. If it's something that's totally anomalous, then
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: it's hard to take it. You know, it's out of context.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: But as we were just talking the you know, from
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: New Orleans, we have a fellow who worked in the
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: FBI office that says that there was a file on
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: Oswell in the subversive file desk right wet cabinet where
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: they keep subversive stuff separate from criminal files. That's the
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: way it works. PCI's criminal informants are totally different than
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: subservasive informants. So he says that, and that's kind of
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: anomalism tracking. But then we look at all the other evidence,
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: including the quickly interview and see that it would almost
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: be insane if there weren't. You know, in fact, there
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: has to be if they're following their own rules, there's
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: got to be that file there. So we completely independently
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: can support his statement. So I guess showed to really
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: answer you. Independent support is always what I'm looking for,
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: and even more important when I find something that I
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: didn't know existed that is corroborative, that's especially important to
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: me because I didn't make it up. I didn't go
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: hunting for it. It was there. You know. I wasn't
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: trying to prove my story. I just came across it
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: and went, oh, geez, okay. You know. So from the
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: other thing I guess that's very important to this book
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: is when I was talking about Oswell early on, I
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: was repeating mostly what other people had written about him.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: I was not necessarily going back to people that knew him,
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: likez Titovitz. Is a very important, completely independent this is
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: this guy has no stake in the game. He says
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: good things about Oswald, bad things about Oswell, good things
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: about Marina, bad things about Marina. That's the kind of
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: balance you want in the source that you can really
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: bring into this. For the marine part of the story
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: that you're talking about. I became pretty good friends with
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: Jack Swhyke as I said, who had been marine ci
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: ed and Zugi and who himself decided to investigate him.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: He went back independently and talked to a bunch of
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: these marines. Plus he talked to the people that have
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: been involved in Oswell's court martial, the doctor that had
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: treated Oswald and Jack. Jack was not a conspiracy guy.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: In fact, Jack was more of a loone noth than
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: anything else. But when Jack starts producing information that is
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: corroborative about Lee Harvey Oswald, I tend to trust that
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: because I know he has no axe to brind He's
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: not a conspiracy person looking for something. He just really
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: wanted to understand Oswald because he served there at the
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: same place in time.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you juxtaposed something like the interview with Quigley too,
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: the different versions of the interrogation of Oswald where seemingly,
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: you know, he was telling a lot of the truth
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: and the interrogation, you know, as far as his life
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: facts and where he worked, what he's been doing, and
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: then he didn't seem to hold anything back in the
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: interrogation and you know, as opposed to the Quigley interview,
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: where you know he was definitely lied about some things.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: And I don't know, Man Oswald is just such a
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: walking contradiction. He's so hard to figure out. You know,
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: some people think he was a box dumb as a
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: box of rocks something. Some people think he was, you know,
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: smarter than the average bear. You know, you watch things
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: like his, uh, his TV interview in New Orleans, where
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: you know, he's throwing out all these facts and seems
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: like you can put a sentence together, except for the
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: one that says he was under the protection of the
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: State Department while he was in Russia and then quickly uh,
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: which changed from was true.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, way Oswald. One one thing is very important got
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: Oswald is this is it is a person that actually,
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: other than when he doesn't play by the rules, plays
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: by the rules and know how to use them. He
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: he very if you look at the year that he's
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: spent trying to get back into the US from Russia.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: I mean he he looked that the rule books. He
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: writes to the State Department, and he he goes by
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: the book. He knows how to play the game. He
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: writes the different agencies he does his homework. A. He
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: is a smart guy. Uh. And you guys said you
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: looked into the Marines that he knew. Sure, you must
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: have looked into Donovan. Uh, the officer that supervised him. Yeah,
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: and Donovan goes. Donovan, who is a political science he's
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: a policey graduate of an eastern university, says that it
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: was challenging to get into a dialogue with Oswell because
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: Oswell knew more about world events and geopolitics than he did,
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: you know. And Donovan doesn't want to say this marine
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: you know, you know he's telling the truth, right, because
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: this is not I don't I don't want to say.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: I just you know, I got my grief from you know.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: And and this this two striper is out talking me
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: into barracks and it's embarrassing. And when is when the
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: guys around or barbing questioned you go, oh, Oswell really
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: liked to do it to the officers because he knew
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: more than they did. Everybody's saying the same thing. No
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: Oswald is not stupid.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was a smart ass. He was a smart ass, right,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: Urian And uh, you know, I think it was. It
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: was Nelson Delgado who was who was Hispanic, and he
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: had gone on leave and this was during the time
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: then I guess Castro took over Cuba. He was in
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: the Sierra Something mountains and and Delgado came back and
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Oswald goes, what were you helping Castro over there in
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: the mountains. And it's really funny and witty. Actually, So
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: the whole Loane nut like didn't have friends type of thing.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: He definitely.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: Did.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: He was just a little he kept himself, you know,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: And and we have you know, we went through a
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: lot of the marine statements and and they're very like
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: you said, they're very consistent, and that's what you have
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: to look for, a consistency. And I know from listening
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: to a lot that that's what you look for. And yeah,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: I mean you have someone like you know, Daniel Powers,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: for example, who went to radar school with him in Mississippi,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: who Oswalt allegedly taught him how to play chess and
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: they spent like four to six hours a day playing chess,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: he said. Oswalt is was was kind of feminine, and
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: I think it was in the warrant commission, he said,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: at some point Oswald has to kind of confront his
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: is he possibly homosexual or not? It's it's very interesting,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: but it's it's it's consistent to your point.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: And I think and you brought it up. Oswald, his
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: behaviors are situational. You know, at the core, he made
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: his core, believes, his core attitudes, his core being an asshole,
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: his core of being easily bored by everything, including sex. Okay,
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: you know that at the core. But what in any
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: given time and day, as with almost all of us,
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: behavior is situational. So if you're if you're gonna slice it,
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: you have to go look at what's happening with him
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: right at that point in time to figure out how
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: he's going to react. And the interesting thing is his
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: reactions are almost always predictable. They are consistent.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: If he gets reading the room Larry.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and he practices that. Titavitz even talks about that,
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: you know, and they role played, they role played to
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: help him learn Russians and that sort of thing. And
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: he said he was really quick and he could really
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: get into rolls easily, and he did. And one of
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: the things that's clear is if if Oswald was in
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: company with people that you know, he felt he had
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: something common with or whatever. He could be a very
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: social animal. If he was in a room with people
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: he didn't really like, he could just be obnoxious, you know,
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: which is true for most everybody who was friends with
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: Marina and fort Worth when they came back, which is
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: sort of a problem.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, it sounds like a
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: little bit almost like a you know, for a more modern,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: well semi modern example of you know, Jerry Hemming. Yeah,
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean. It depends on who he
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: was talking to, whether or not, you know, he was
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: somewhat truthful maybe, or just or just messing with them,
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: you know, just telling them things, you know.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: What language he was using. Jerry could be extremely literate,
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: or he could just be the foulest mouth guy in
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: the world. It just decided, how, like you said, how
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: am I going to play the room? What who do
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: I need to be at this particular point in time?
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: So this person, Yeah, yeah.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: And he was super and smart. I never felt that
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: I could engage with Jerry because I knew he was
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: smarter on his feet than I was. It's just this
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: just he we had some exchanges. It's kind of like
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: he's going to be ahead of me. Do not play
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: this game.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Somebody's seven moves ahead of you all the time. You're like,
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: oh okay, wow.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: And of course Jerry Patrick Hemming, the founder of inter Penn.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: But that leads me to a question, So do you
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: in writing your book, did you see any pattern of
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: people that had influence on Lee? So the people that
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: I think had some type of influence on Lee Harvey
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: Oswalt would be George and Warrenshield. It would be Michael
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: Paine and maybe David Ferry, and these are all kind
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: of intellectual types, older guys. Of course, Lee Harvey Oswald
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: did and grew up with a father. Did you see
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: any correlation with that?
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: I think I think what primarily influenced Oswell was not
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: so much people, but what he was reading. Oswell was
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: a book person. So somebody asked me at one point
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: score like, if Oswell is a Marxist, you know, socialist,
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: why isn't he always hanging around with Marxist socialists? And
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: I'm going, who did Marx hang around with? Mark stayed
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: in his room in London and read and wrote, and
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: you know, he didn't hang out with anybody until they
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: put him to Russia, and then that Oswell is a
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: book person, He's a thinking type person. He's by nature solitary.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: He himself said that he didn't really get influenced by
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: anybody individually, you know, by people, until he got to
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: Japan and started socializing with the Japanese students and the
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: Japanese who felt that, frankly, that they were being you know,
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: that Americans just decided to run the country, and they
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: were socialist leanings, and they were more I think he
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: was influenced by those people because they were his age
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: and they talked the same way he was already thinking.
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: So they reinforced him, so did de Morenshield. It's interesting
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: that de Mornshield wrote that Oswald was a lot more
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: like him than his son was, and as a matter
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: of fact, that his son really disliked Lee Harvey Oswald
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: and George had to separate them at one point in time,
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: even though the Oswald's had lived with his son and
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: daughter for a little bit. Because his son was relatively conservative.
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: George was a worldly guy, you know, cultured internationalist. Let's
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: just say, an internationalist, was an internationalist at heart, you know. Uh,
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: And so yeah, George definitely influenced him. I would say
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: maybe he may have been the certainly the most recent
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: influence over him. But generally speaking, my view would be
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: Oswald read things and he listened to things, and that's
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: what influenced and which is which you find, which is
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: why you find all that correspondence with the social Worker
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: Workers Party and the and you know you find those
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: those are the people he's in contact. I think it's
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: it's interesting. I don't know if you've seen it, but
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: he actually wrote a letter when he was young, younger
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: and asking about whether or not there was a Socialist
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: Workers Party in Dallas that he could join. You know,
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: is there a group here that I can join? And
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: the where If there's not, maybe I can start one.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: And the answer was no, there's not. This is Dallas,
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: you know, kind of like VT. Lee and New Orleans.
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: You are not going to find You're not here in
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: the wrong place.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: It's too hot down there, and you know, too many
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: anti history Cubans are around, you know, yea.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: And yeah, his interaction with the Cubans is a whole
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: different thing. But in terms of Michael Pain, I just
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: want to circle back to that. Of course, the trotsky Ie,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: what do you think. And of course they had some
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: uh they went to some far right extreme meetings, much
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: more frequent than than the Mornshield, who was of course
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: in Haiti. And well, what do you make of that?
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: I I what I make of that is that Oswald
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: was quite literally associating with Michael is something of a
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: balance with Ruth. You know, the two were separated. The
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: two had some of the some general political things in general,
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: but not to be Michael had a car, Michael could
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: pick Oswell up and take Oswell places. And Oswell was
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: we got to remember Oswell, as his notebook confirms, and
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: he confirms himself, he was interested in not following, but
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: he was very interested in the ultra right, you know,
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: they they were an object he was. He was at
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: heart wanted economic justice, if you look down at the core,
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: based on what had happened to his mother, what had
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: happened to him, what had happened with his old whole employment.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: He was about economic justice and about social justice, which okay,
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: Michael Payne matches some of that, but Oswell was also
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: very much against whatever was blocking that, which was the
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: altra right. So it's kind of like know your enemies,
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: know your friends so did Michael influence them or did
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: Michael just provide transportation? You know, I'm I'm not sure
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: that Michael was that much of an influence over by
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: that time. I think Oswell. By by the time he
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: gets back in Dallas, Oswell is in his own space.
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: I don't think there are people that's going to influence
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: him that we write about in the book. But it's
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: not going to be Michael Payne. Those people are definitely
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: influencing him, but they're not He's not going to be
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: talking about them either.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: And I think the problem with de Warrenshield is, of
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: course he wasn't very favorable to lead in his Warren
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: commissioned testimony. Of course, I think he was picked up
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: at the airport by Dorothy matt Luck, which should scare
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: you enough if that's who's picking up.
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: Much more favorable in his book than in his testimony.
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: And I think it's really clear that he he felt
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: that he had been used. I mean, George is a
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: really smart guy. After his Warren commission experience, he knew
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: he had been used. I mean quite frankly, after the
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: FBI had interviewed him and hate he knew he was
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: being used. But he also knew he was exposed. And
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: George is a guy, as a consulting geologist who needs
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: his network. If he's going to have in or leaving,
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: he doesn't need to suddenly appear to be Okay, nobody's
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: going to talk to me. I'm done. So George is
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: in a bad spot there. But I truly think by
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: the time he wrote his book, he apologizes for the
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: fact that he didn't defend Lee Moore.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and he does in the interview I was listening
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: to actually earlier today with Altmans and he's really he's
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: and he goes into exactly that, like the Worrant Commission.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Jenner pressured me this that, and I'm really kind of
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: sorry about it and took a lot of it back.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: So it's like, how do you discern the Of course,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: on this channel, we always talk about early statements being
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: the most are reliable, but in de Morrinshall's case on
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: Oswald is probably reversed.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: I think that relates to witnesses. I'm very much of
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: that belief when you're talking about witnesses and first day evidence.
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure that applies to people offering a legal
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: testimony after the fact. You know, when I'm talking about
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: FIRSTE want I want to hear what they said five
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: minutes after the fact, without without they've had time to
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: process it. I mean, I've done a lot of research
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: for and other venues that talks how about how quickly
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: memory gets contaminated. I mean literally within fifteen to twenty minutes.
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: As soon as someone has had a chance to discuss
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: what they just saw with other people who also saw it,
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: you get a blend. It starts being compartmentalized, and it
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: starts blending together. I mean. One of the most egregious
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: things that we have that provably is in the area
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: assassination with Sandra Serrano and how quickly her story gets tainted,
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: and that tainting gets used by LAPD. Another story entirely,
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: but it's a perfect example of how within fifteen minutes
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: she told exactly the truth to an assistant LA District attorney,
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: and then over the next six months they managed to
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: ignore the attorney who had heard it and disprove her
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: testimony or discounter testimony. So anyway, sorry, don't mean to
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: labor that point, but when you're talking about who you
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: can trust about what statements, I think you know, first
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: impressions are really important. But it's after that it's situational.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: Who are they talking to and what are the circumstances.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: You know, I know a little little bit ago, you know,
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: we were talking about Oswalla being a pack rad and
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: keeping these little knickknack things right. And you know, he
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: was a guy, you know, twenty four years old, didn't
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: really have a lot of worldly possessions. Like most of
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: what this dude owned he could fit in a couple
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: of bags and and that's it, you know by this point.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: So and he grew up dirt poor, so it's understandable
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: that you know, he would anything that he had he
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: would probably want to hang on to, you know, no
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: matter what inconsequence with maybe. But I was thinking about
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: one of the most odd I guess things that Oswald did,
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: and that is I think it was July sixth He's
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: invited by his cousin cousin Eugene to go to Alabama
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: and speak at it was a Jesuit House of studies.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: And on July twenty seventh, he actually does go and
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: talks to this talks to these people for like thirty
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: minutes or whatever. And I saw you mentioned something about
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: him keeping correspondence from people that had wrote him letters
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: thanking him for coming and speaking. I thought that was
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: just it's crazy.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: We even put one of them in the photo section
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: of the book because it's it's so surprising. Yes, his
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: his cousin was a student at the school and you know,
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: visited with Oswald, and just to set a little background
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: for that, it's not like everybody we always visualize Oswell
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: as being an outcast. Some of the other things we
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: saw in that paper collection from DPD. There are letters
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: to him after he returns from the Soviet Union, and
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: they're positive letters, not from coming there, but you know,
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: there are letters that say something like, we don't think
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: you're a trader. You did what you you know, you
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: were entitled illegally go over there and see what it
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: was like. And you know, we'd like to talk with
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: you because we think, you know, they're kind of like independence.
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: You exercised the right to do what you can't. We
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: shouldn't blame you for that. We'd like to know what
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: you saw and what you heard. So we actually received
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: positive reinforcement in some quarters that never gets talked about.
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: The incident that you're talking about. He went, he gave
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: his talk, and he got several letters after the fact
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: of appreciation talking about how well he spoke and how
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: he had highlighted key issues and how he was kind
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: of he was. It's the sort of thing that they
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: didn't hear in the news because the news was, you know,
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: all anti Russian and anti Soviet, and it wasn't critical.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: But he was giving a critical observation from both sides.
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, he did not like the Soviet system. He
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: made that very clear. He didn't like communist nationalism. But
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: on the other hand, he thought through some of the
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: elements of their economic system and their economic support network
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: and that sort of stuff. Healthcare were really good, so
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: he was. That brings up another thing that just and
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: this is another thing that really amaze me. It's like, Okay,
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: I studied Oswell, were written about Oswald. I didn't read
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: Oswell's own writing, and I was just appalled because that
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: was in the Warrant Commission. It's in the volumes his
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: own writings about what he believed and what he thought,
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: which is very critical. And if you read it, you
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: see that he is writing in the Athenian system. He's
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: writing at a college level. Now, his spelling and grammar
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: may be bad for reasons whatever, but just in terms
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: of literacy and comprehension, he's writing it I would expect
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: to see in a you know, sophomore polypsy class.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it was a tenth grade dropout, wasn't he.
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: Well he did complete his ged and but yes, he
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: was formally a dropout, but he did. Yeah, he was
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: a dropout. But if you look at the magazines he read,
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: like The Nation. I mean, this is a guy who
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: subscribes to the Nation. How many twenty two year olds
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: in the United States are as scripts writing to the
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: Nation magazine in nineteen sixty three. This is he was.
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: That was Oswald. That's what he wanted to be thinking about.
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: That's what he wanted to That's what he was interested in.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: I mean, he could have other interest at times. He
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: did get interested in the photography thing. As you said,
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: he played. You know, it's not that he but he
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: really was a thinker.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: He absolutely was. And I think Nelson Delgado have this
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: written down in his Warm Commission testimony. He said he
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: was really a thinker or reader end quote. When he
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: was talking about I think it was his shooting ability.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: But even when you go back to Thornley, and Thornley
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: is like kind of credited for being like a co
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: creator of the Discordian religion. Like they're talking about political
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: ideologies and this is just a young kid. I feel
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: that is figuring it out or experimenting with all these different,
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: you know, ideologies.
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: The one thing if I frowned a little bit when
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: you mentioned thor have you read Thornley's own book about Oswald.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: It's very hard to find. I think I've read.
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: Pieces of it.
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: I have read it, and it is a work of fiction.
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: So Thornley is one of those people. I don't necessarily
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: throw out people entirely, and I never threw out everything
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: from everybody, but Thornley is one of those people. It's
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: very bright, it is very very much an independent thinkers.
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: But the book he wrote as fact, I assure you,
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: is totally fiction. Oswald did not have a high priced
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: mistress that he was living with in Japan and spending
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: most of his time with off base. I asked Jack
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: about that, and Jack said, you got to be kidn me.
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: You know, no, this is not happening. Yeah, it just
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: makes no sense. It's totally out of context. So it
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: was very interesting. I kept. I kept going, wait a minute,
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: I'm reading it. I'm reading it. It's like, could this
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: possibly be It's it's very classic Thornley. It's just it's like, okay,
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: in the universe all of its own. But so any way, yes,
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: I'll just leave that. There are some sources that I
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: will say I find interesting, but let's just say you
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: won't find them in Thornley in the index for the book.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and that goes back to my first question
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: in terms of like, how do you how do you
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: weigh those those different testimonies and accounts on Oswald very
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: difficult cult and you know, the book you're undertaking is
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: extremely difficult. It's gonna piss off probably ninety percent of
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: the community who has these like like pre beliefs, you know.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: And uh, but but I love it as a controllsion.
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: I remember I've taken your grades to a history course
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: at one time, and the professor said, look, if you
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: guys go on to become historians, you've got to accept
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: the fact that if you do a good job, a
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: few people will like you and many people will hate you.
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: I did not go on to become a professional historian,
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: but I feel that I've fulfilled his you know, his
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: his urging. It's sort of like, yeah.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: You've wrote enough looks to earn that. Yeah, yeah, all right, Larry,
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: I got a question for you, and it's about Oswald.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty three. There seems to be a little
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: bit of a gap in the chronology of Ozwald from
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: about mid August to I guess it's about mid September
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: where we don't really know a whole lot about what
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: Oswald was doing where he was at He obviously wasn't
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: working anywhere, but there just seems to be that big
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: gap in the chronology. And I'm interested to know what
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: you think that he may have been up to in
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: that time period.
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: Well, we know, actually we know from his writing that
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: he was up to two things. Okay, after he lost
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: his job. I mean you're you're talking about a period
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: of time where he's he's lost his job at Riley, right, Uh,
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: he's lost his job, he's living on. Oswell is always
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: very People always ask what did Oswell get his money about?
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: And I get his money. Oswell was really good about unemployment.
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: I mean you look at his respondent. I mean, yeah,
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: he's he plays that to the so. But But what
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: he is doing is he is preparing himself and this
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: is based on many different sources, his letters, his talking
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: with Marina, things that he's doing. He is preparing himself
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: to go to Cuba. He has decided that, you know,
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: it's just not working for him back in the US.
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: He can't get the kind of job that he wants,
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: he can't keep the kind of job that he wants,
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: He doesn't have the freedom to do the sort of
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: thing that he wants to do. He needs another adventure.
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: Oswald is adventure driven in a positive manner. Oswald always
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: wanted to go immerse himself in something new, or he
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: could learn something new, have new experiences. That was the
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: reason for the Marines, that was the reason for Russia.
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: So he has decided and he's doing two things that
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: during that period of time, he's continuing writing. He and
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: Marina are both writing to the Russian embassy about a
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: return to Russia for her Well. It depends. Sometimes it's
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: for both of them, sometimes it's for one of them.
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: Then Oswell writes and says, well, okay, you can just
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: consider her and then I'll treat me separately. I don't
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: want to stand in the way of she's still a citizen, right, so,
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: you know, and he did not accept the offer of
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: Russian citizenship which they gave him. So in different letters
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: at different times all the way up until November. Sometimes
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: it's both of them, sometimes it's her without him. During
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: this period of time, she's even starting to write about
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: the fact that he wants her gone, you know, he
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: wants to be off on it doing his own thing.
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: So my answer to you is that he is laying
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: the groundwork to go to Cuba in one shape or form,
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: and we discussed that at length in the book. During
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: that period of time, I would like to tell you
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: precisely what he was doing. I think I knew who
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: know he was talking to, and we spend the last
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: half of the book talking about the people that he
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: began talking to during that period of time, and the
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: people who were telling him that they could not only
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: help him get to Cuba, they would help him get
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: to Cuba as a big man, as someone who was
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: provably in support of the Cuban revolutionary agenda. Oswald had
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: been disappointed when he got allowed to stay in Russia.
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: He thought he would be not that he wasn't treated badly,
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: but he thought he would end up in university. He
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: ended up in a factory instead. He wanted to go
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: to Cuba and not you know, he wanted to be
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: not a hero of the revolution, but he wanted to
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: be part of the new regime, the new economy, the
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: new whatever, which is one one of the interesting things
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: that we've talked about before. But when he gets to
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: McCowan and the Oswell McCowan visit, one of the things
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: that people tend to tend to miss is that McCowan
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: said that Oswell and the guy that were with him
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: were talking about about buying a quantity of weapons to
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: use for revolutionary activities in Central America. Now, I ask
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: you who is doing revolutionary activities in Central America and
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: who has Oswell decided to support. He is support decided
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: to support the Cuban revolution. The CIA is not doing
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: revolutionary activities in Central They're trying to stop revolutionary activities
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: in Central America at this point.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: This is goes to Castro's personal gun runner for them.
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So two things that are occurring at the
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: same time. There are two agendas in play. Oswell agenda
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: is to join in the revolutionary experience and support the
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: Cuban state. The other people's agenda is to begin setting
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: up ra Oswald as something entirely different. There that's the
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: point in time where there are two agendas in play,
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: and that continues up to the afternoon of the twenty second.
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: Oswell's following his own agenda. These other people are following
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: their own agenda. The only question is when did their agenda.
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: Was their agenda still one coming out of JM wave
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: in Florida or was their agenda something totally independent at
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: that point in time. So I wish I could answer
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: your There are indicators of where he went, what he did,
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: what his agenda was, But as you say, he kind
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: of until he appears in Mexico City. You know, there
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: are these little there's these little incidents, and there may
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: have been more. I think one of the things we
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: failed to consider is after November twenty second, how many
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: people are going to come forward and say, oh, Oswell
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: visited me. In September. Oswell came by and we talked
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: about you know, no, no, this is not happening. It's
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: not like Odio volunteered her information. It's not like mccount
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: and volunteer. Nobody is volunteering information. We just know bits
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: and pieces of what might have happened could have happened.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: Crazy Joe.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's it's a great point. And one of
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: the other questions I had was, so, of course Marina
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: and we've talked off air for a little bit about
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: Marina how much steak because of course she was obviously
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: somewhat pressured, you know, especially after the Walker letter as
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: we worked on together. How much stake do you put
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: in her testimony?
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: She kind of went into another babysitter, which Rob and
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: I had had proven in terms of James Herbert Martin
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: on the twenty ninth or November thirtieth. How do you
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: how do you descern like what statements Marina says on
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: the league because it's yeah, it's.
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: I'm way to channel, okay, well no or not? Well,
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: First of all, I've got to make a statement, there
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: is no historian who could treat this without using Marina
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: as a source. The thought that you could kick Marina
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: Oswald out of this in totality is insane. So you've
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: got to deal with what she said and the fact
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: that obviously it's situational, or I would parse it out
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: joe Is. We have tended to look at it as
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: if she was under pressure because she was afraid of
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: being sent back to the Soviet Union. Marina wanted to
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: go back to the Soviet Union, I sincerely believe at
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: different points and times from her own letters. I do
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: not believe, having looked at her attitudes and her Marina
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: was a pretty strong woman. I think she was perfectly
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: willing to punt Lee at different points in time and
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: leave Lee. And she did repeatedly, by the way, much
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: more so than we tend to talk about. She was
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: probably away from Lee as much as she was with
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: Lee during sixty two and sixty three. The only thing
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: that annoyed people is every time she would leave him,
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: she would somehow be drawn. It's kind of like he'll
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: come and make up, and he'll wine and beg and
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: I'll go back to him, and people would that would
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: annoy people. It's like, Okay, we tried to get you
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: to break away from him, and he came back and
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: got on it. And what she did up until the
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: last day virtually like there's this this strange chemistry going
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: on between the two that you have to consider. There
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: was up until right so so the bottom line is no,
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: I don't think she I don't think I think she
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: felt pressured because she this is a Soviet citizen. She
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: doesn't understand American law. She would actually be safe back
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: in Russia. It asked to go back to Russia. She
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: had a job, She could go back into Russia. She
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: had family, she had friends in Russia that she had
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: continued to write too, by the way, not just Oswald,
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: but Marina continued their correspondence as well. So what she
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: was quite frankly afraid of, I think, was that she
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: was legally actionable in regard to certain things. She had lied,
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: She had withheld evidence, she had destroyed evidence not directly
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: necessarily relating to JFK. Although we can't know that. We
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: can't know, but we certainly know that she did in
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: regard to General Walker. Okay, she destroyed material that would
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: have been considered relevant if she had known, let's say,
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: if she had known that Oswald had told her he
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: had shot at Walker. Obviously, withholding that information when the FBI,
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: she really exposed herself in several aspects to prosecution. Okay,
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: So up to a point in time, there's every reason
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: for her to be concerned about the FBI. It's interesting
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: to look at her own correspondence. Her own correspondence is
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: very positive about the Secret Service and how they made
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: her feel that they were protecting her. I was trying
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: to get to her, and she really thinks and its
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: Secret Service, you know. So she's really in between two spaces,
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: and she's in two places in giving remarks before she
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: gives her official testimony, you know. So we have many
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: sets of remarks to the Secret Service, to the FBI,
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: then finally officially to the Warren Commission, and the Warren
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: Commission tries to play her. I mean, they set her
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: up with questions and lead her like you know, we
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: all know how badly they let her. And I truly think,
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: given her lack of English, they made her nod her
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: head and acquis ess to statements that were essentially their statements,
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: even with the translator. And at that point in time, yeah,
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: the translator is the guy that's trying to help her. Actually,
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: so she's you know, so to try to answer your question,
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: UH have deal with Marina extensively in the book in
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: terms of what you can accept, what, what I accept,
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: what David and I accept, what we don't. Uh, there's
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: a chapter of Marina on Lee and a chapter of
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: Lee on Marina, you know, and so we try to
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: look at from both bases. But there is what I
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: think what really gets ignored, and a lot of it
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: is the chemistry. The chemistry between those two was really
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: it's not that it doesn't occur in real life, but
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: it was not necessarily a romantic relationship. But there was
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: there was this pull between Lee and Marina that kept
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: separating and then kept pulling back together. That really is situational.
• 59:50
  Speaker 3: So you have at the end when when I can
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: totally understand why right after the assassination, Marina was convinced
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: by what everybody was telling her that Lee had been
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: involved and were later after the fact, she began convinced
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: that that was not the case, that she had been misled.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: That makes perfect sense to me, I don't is it inconsistent, yes,
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: but I think it makes sense.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: Yes. I mean, that's glaringly obvious from Marina's actions, you know, after,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: you know, after the assassination. I mean, she's literally three
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: months out from having a baby with this guy, and
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: then of course the assassination goes down, and she's she's
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: more than willing to put herself out there, you know,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: sexually for for other men, you know, telling me that
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: she really had no loyalty, if that's what you want
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: to call it. Uh, you know, to to lee in
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: that in that terms of a relationship, you.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: Know, chimistry maybe loyalty. I don't, but it is interesting
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: that a newspaper interview that she gave, not not long
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: after the assassination that has been used by everyone in
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: the low nut camp Is or any others. I shouldn't say,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: just the lone. Camp Oswa was not the same man
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: after he came back from Russia that he was in Russia.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: And we all know where that's gone over time. But
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 3: from Marina's perspective, let's look at what was coming down
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: here in Russia. He courted her, We got all kinds,
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: we got romantic pictures. She's writing about what he's doing.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 3: He's writing about.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: He's somewhatous, and she has a baby.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: They come back to the US and he's going, she's going,
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: he doesn't even care about sex anymore. Yes, he was different.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: I mean that that's the way it is. But you
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: know that's going to.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: Find a job, keep a job. There's no friends to
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: hang out with really, you know, they're in the process
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: of trying to be social, it seems at certain times,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: you know. And and maybe going out of his way
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: a little bit too, you know, Curtail to Marina and
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: and and and the white Russian communities in Dallas, you know.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it's two totally different scenarios. You know. It
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: just seems to me like when he when they were
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: in Russia, you know, and that's part of communism. You know,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: you're giving a place to a nice place to live
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: for for I guess for over there. Uh, you're giving
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: a decent job, uh, you know, and and the rest
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: of the time, you know, there's a lot of hanging
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: out with your friends doing things. And then you contrast
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: that with coming back here to where Oswald's family is
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: is crazy. His mom's crazy, you know, his brother's got
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: his own thing going on.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: And doesn't have any money.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: Does Let's let's do a sociological survey in the United States.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: How many two people get married after a like three
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: months romantic clean right, a lot of passion, a lot
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: of romance, get flaunt a year later, baby is here.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: Two years later, the guy has no job. They're living
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: in a slum apartment. How many times does this occur?
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: Is this anything you know? And does the wife consider
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: that the guy is different? Yes, she does, rightly so.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: And I'm sure she nagged the hell out of him
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: while she's spoken her cigarette. You're not you know good? Lee,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: you no good?
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: You know well?
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: And the white Russian friends are giving her stuff. Marguerite's
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: given her stuff and this is irritating Lee out the rear.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: So there's a real human equation to this that has
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: nothing to do with conspiracy. It's just reality.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And and the and the pain's been in the
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: Ruth in particular, bending over backwards from from Marina, uh,
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: you know, to try to get her away from Oswald
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: and you've replace a live take care of his kids,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: and you know it's going to be demoralizing.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: But she's the last in the line. I think she's
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: like the fourth person right that has tried to get
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: her Marina away from Oswala. Again, we think of that
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: as being unique for Ruth. No, ever since they came
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: back to Fort Worth, there have been people that have
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 3: been trying to kind of like, this guy's a jerk.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: Come on, we'll let you live with us for a while.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: We'll so Marina is just the last and the long
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: not sorry. Ruth is the last and the long line
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 3: of people that have gone this guy you're you know,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: he's just not good for you. You need to break
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 3: it up. And then and then they get fed up
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: with her because then just like with Ruth, Lee shows
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: up again and starts being nice to Marina. And what
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: do we see with Ruth. It's kind of like, does
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: Ruth really like Lee? No, she doesn't because she thinks
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: Lee is bad for Marina. But this has happened over
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: and over again, and we do spend time went through
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 3: that in the book because I think that gets lost
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 3: has got it repetitive. You know, it is consistent, it's
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: consistent behavior, but for those two, uh, and what Ruth
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 3: is doing is not inconsistent with what other people have done,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: even to more and Shield. I mean, on two different
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: occasions De Moor and Shield has tried to get in
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: it and he likes Lee, he just doesn't think they're
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: good for each other.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was George's wife, Jenneh to mourn Schield,
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: Jeanne who was really talking about how Marina like kind
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: of called Lee out publicly for for not satisfying her. Right,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: Am I wrong with.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: No, you're right, she she captured. Marina is a sexual person.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: I mean, if her daughters here this she was. I mean,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: that's there's that's just the way it is. She was
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: farm more passionate than Lee was. Lee's Marx reading in
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: his little room and cubby hole. Lee is not often
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: the other part of that. Yes, they had kids, but
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: as I think, actually she quotes, Marina quotes something like,
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 3: well he only makes less to me once or twice
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: a month now, so clearly your expectations are.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: The only last ten seconds at a time.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: To Yeah, she had she had a higher expectations than
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: a couple of times a month.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think if another guy alone, it.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: Does have that in it, but it's not you know,
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: that's not the focus.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: But yes, it gives context. It does, and I mean,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: let's face it, Lee Harvey Oswalt is one of the
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: most mysterious, possibly misunderstood people in persons, at least definitely
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: when it comes to assassins like in last century plus.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: So it's you really do have to take all these
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: things in context, right, You can't just use what you
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: want to further your narrative, and that's why he evolves.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 3: I mean he's a real person. He evolves over time,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: his interests evolve over time, and he's a real person
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: who Boredom is a big factor with Lee. Many people
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: it's not with Lee, it really is, you know, it
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 3: can be. When he was high school, he belonged to
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 3: clubs of different types. He joined CAP again, and people
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 3: want him to be unsocial. He's in a I forget
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: what it was in New York State. He's like in
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: a model club. He's in an astronomy club. He joins CAP,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: he gets a job to pay so he can buy
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: a uniform for CAP. This is like an antisocial person. No,
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: it's not. It's he just evolves. What what he's interested
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: in at a given time is what he does, and
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 3: it really applies himself to it, just like by the
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 3: fall of nineteen sixty three, he's really applying himself to
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 3: try to get into Cuba, to get having you adventure.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it'd be crazy to see what could have been,
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: you know, had everything not unfold the way it did,
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: for sure, But uh, you said.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: I want to throw out one thing that really so important.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 3: That is when Lee was back in Fort worth all right,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: start back in Dallas, and then fall of sixty three
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 3: he started applying for jobs. He actually had some pretty
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: good credentials in the photo development photo work. He applied
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: at another company other than Jaggers, and we found the correspondence.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: They wanted to hire him. His credentials are good or
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 3: skills for good. He interviews well, and it just so
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: happens that the guy who interviewed him called Jaggers to
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: do a background check and happened to get the manager
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 3: that Lee had worked under. And the guy said he
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: was okay as an employee, but we had to let
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 3: him go because occasionally he talked Russian at work and
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 3: that made other people nervous. Now you want to think
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: about changing the course of history. What if that telephone
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: call had not happened. What if Lee was back into
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 3: fulfilling job in November of nineteen sixty three, making money,
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: hid an apartment, bought a washing machine, and Marina is
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 3: there with the baby in the apartment on November twenty second.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: I mean, just one phone call and the guy he
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: happened to connect to the managers and mentions and nothing
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: about his work skills, just like oh, but he spoke Russian.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: Somebody heard him speaking Russian and we were he made
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: us nervous.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, I could have changed everything for poor Lee
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: Harvey household, for sure.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: But there is a consistency. He does get bored easily.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: He does want to leave Russia, he does want to
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: go back to Russia. He wants to go to Cube,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: but he wants to be Marie Day's trying to send
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: her back like it's it's actually very consistent if if
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: you keep track, so.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 3: It is if you if you piece it, it becomes suspicious,
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 3: mysterious whatever. Over the full flow, his behavior becomes different.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is not your average person, but it
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 3: becomes to me, it becomes understandable. It may no one else,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: but I find a lot of consistency and continuity.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean when you study of this, that's
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: what you have to look for, because there's just so
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: much contradictions. Yes it's I mean you can go nuts
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: doing it, and.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 3: Yes you can. And we won't even talk about Mexico City.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: If you want to talk about going nuts. Rex Bradford
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 3: has ruined my life. Rix said, Larry, you can't ignore
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 3: Mexico City. You've got to understand and explain it. I'm
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 3: going why me, Rex, nobody else did?
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: What do you?
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: What do you want from me?
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: But yes, a medical evidence. I started glazing over.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and Larry, I think you had a great episode
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: with Chuck Ocelli Thecheli effect on the Mexico City thing
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: in the past month or two recently. And Uh, I
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: think correct me if I'm wrong. Your position was he
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: was in Mexico City, not to get an attention here,
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: which we easily could. Uh, he was in Mexico City
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: and he was also uh impersonated in Mexico City. And
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: I don't know if this it was you that said this,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: but maybe the reason because I never understood like why
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: when they had the opperationation uh to photograph everyone coming
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: into the embassy's and of course the wiretops, why his
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: photo wasn't released because it would further the narrative like
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: of Oswalt being crazy. Right, Uh, you have.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: Okay, You have to remember different people have different priorities.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: The Warrant Commission had a priority in regard to Oswald.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: The CIA has its own priorities. The CIS. The CIA
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 3: operation in Mexico City was the crown jewel of their
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: international operations. More importantly, the fact that they had totally
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 3: compromised a Mexican Mexican president if that had emerged at
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: the time. The Communists were in a very strong position
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: in Mexico at the time. As a matter of fact,
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: one of the things that that we don't understand, uh
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 3: is how dramatic it was. There were actually armed Communist
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 3: underground groups operating in Mexico, and one of the things
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 3: that the CIA was doing with its communications monitoring was
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: helping the Mexican government locate those people not only in
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 3: Mexico but in Central America. The communications intercept male intercept
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 3: programs in Mexico were key to the CI operations across
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 3: the hemisphere. Those people at Langley knew that, those people
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 3: in DC knew that if that crossed the line with
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 3: what the Warrant Commission is trying to do national priorities rule.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 3: So I didn't mean it to trump over what you
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: but it's important to understand what there are different priorities
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: going on here. It's also important to understand which I
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: did not. Okay, I will again frank about this. I've
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 3: learned so much in the other books that I've done
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 3: about the CIA in terms of how they conduct operations,
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 3: what their practices and protocols are. That I brought back
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 3: into this that when I looked at Mexico City this
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 3: time and I looked what was actually in the record
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: in terms of how it conducted itself in regard to
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: those telephone calls, something comes out of that that had
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 3: not occurred to me before that we discussed in the book,
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: is that in terms of this whole operational practice in
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 3: Mexico City, the CIA's whole goal was to identify communications
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 3: and track that back to what those communications meant. Did
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 3: it really mean something was going on with Cuba? Did
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 3: it mean something was going on with Russia? And they
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 3: had been very effective. They had busted at least three
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 3: Americans who were trying to use the Cuban embassy as
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: an entree to provide information to get to the Cuban regime,
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 3: and they managed with telephone calls and intercept and pre
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 3: text calls. Pretext calls get to be impersonation calls, where
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 3: a standard CIA practice, and we lose the fact that
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 3: impersonation calls if if somebody makes a call and you
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 3: don't know who it was, how do you how do
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 3: you handle that? Well, I called back to where it
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 3: came from and say, oh, I'm so and so didn't
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 3: you just call me? What's going on? Uh? And see
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 3: what happens?
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: It's I just talked to the other embassy and they
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: told me this, and uh, I'm just letting you know
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: that they said that, they said everything was okay, you know,
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: and see how they react.
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, I was there. I was there, right, wasn't I?
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 3: But so it it gets to be very convoluted in
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 3: terms terms of who's playing what game. So that show
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 3: that's why. Yeah, without going into the details, and I'm
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 3: not saying that the perfect solution is in the book,
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 3: but there's a scenario in the book that I think
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 3: makes sense. But it you have to go into it
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 3: day by day, call by call. Who's saying what to whom? Yeah,
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 3: there's six different visits on one day to the there's
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 3: to the Cuban and Russian embassies, and then there's a
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 3: visit the next day and a telephone call in it.
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 3: But those have got to be micro analyzed in terms
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 3: of who's calling who, who said what, and who reveals
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 3: what information to who? Because there's a game being played,
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 3: and if you wanted to impersonate Oswald, to make him
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 3: just look like an out of control radical. That doesn't
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 3: occur into any of that that occurs after the assassination,
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 3: with the Alparado thing coming you know, from the CIA
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 3: after the fact. Why if they had that story in hand,
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 3: why didn't they use it to set them up? No,
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: they didn't use it. Then it came out of nowhere afterwards,
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 3: which proved to me that it was a was bogus
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 3: in any event, Sorry, got long window with your answer again, That's.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: All right, So, Lary, I got a couple questions for you.
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: They come from our listeners. You know, we let our
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: we let our our superspy level membership listeners ask our
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: guests the question. So, first up, we have a question
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: for you from our SST one, that's our super Spy
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: T one, Trey Hammeter, and his question is this, Larry,
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: in your opinion, where do you think that le Oswald
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: thought that he would actually be on the night of
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: November twenty second, while making his way to work that morning,
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: hanging out on Beckley.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 3: Else by that night he thought he would be in
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 3: the air on the way to Cuba or in Cuba.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: Really wow. And then I can't give.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 3: A short answer. I don't nobody believes that.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: But our next question is from SST. Two. That is Jack,
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: and he's curious, Uh to know your opinion. Larry. Uh
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: something about Buell Fraser, He says, what do you believe
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 2: his story that came out in his most recent book
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: of seeing a man putting a gun in his trunk
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 2: after the shooting near the school book depository.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 3: I'm really conflicted about Buell. I've met Buell in person.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: I've talked with people who've worked with Buell on different
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 3: versions of his books over the years. Some of them
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 3: didn't get published, some did. He's added too much to
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 3: his story. I can't trust it.
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 3: You know, if if he saw Oswald coming around the
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 3: school book depository building, we should have heard that decades ago.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 6: Uh that that.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 3: I can't say it's not true, but I don't trust it.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 3: This expect the first thing. Nothing about that would have
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 3: exposed Buell. I get nothing that he's come out later.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 3: I see as Oh, well, he couldn't talk because if
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 3: he talked, it would have made Oswald look guilty. Well,
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 3: now he's talking and making Oswall look guilty. You know,
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 3: so he could have said that earlier and everybody would
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 3: have loved it. With the lone nutside would have loved it.
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 3: So honest answer is I just I there's some people
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 3: have gotten the p in his.
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: Book saying that he saw somebody other than Lee put
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: a rifle in the trunk of a car out in
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: front of the school book deposits right after the shooting,
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: which is that. Of course, he tells his story of
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 2: seeing Oswald leave the school book depository. I'm guessing he
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: thought he came out the back door and came walking
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: down Houston Street and then eventually going up to Maine.
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 3: And I'm familiar with that. I have not seen this
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 3: statement about him saying that he saw that happen.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 2: That's his book steering truth honestly to me, Larry, And
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: of course it's something that he's never ever said before.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: But it seems to me like something sensational that he
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: had to put in his book to sell copies, because
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 2: he's been telling pretty much the same story. He'll pop
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: out of his shell like a turtle every five years
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: to the local news station and you know, well, I
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: drove lead to work and we really didn't talk about anything,
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: and you know, that's I didn't really know him that well.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: And you know, he's been saying the same thing for
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: all these years, but he's been eluding researchers as well
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 2: all these years and has never been really asked the
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: hard questions or taken to test about certain things that
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: he's actually said, which is frustrating.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 3: He will I was in a room with with after
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 3: one of his talks and we pushed back on a
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 3: couple of his remarks, and he he's a nice fellow
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 3: and he didn't take it badly. It's just there was
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 3: no engagement. There's no back and forth, there's no you know.
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 3: So now my honest answer is that I'm willing to
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 3: go with what The one thing that I will totally
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 3: accept from Buell Wesley Frasier is that he was indeed
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 3: shown that bag, the same bag that was taking the
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 3: school book depository that night, under polygraph and he said
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 3: that the bag that he had seen that morning, like
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 3: hours before, was not the bag they were showing him.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 3: That I'm with him one hundred percent that was not
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 3: be bag that he had say Oswald caring, and that
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 3: was polygraphed and testa and they didn't put that into evidence.
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 3: Clearly there's a reason that never made it into evidence,
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 3: So I don't want to discount this first day is good.
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we've been looking for that for years. That the
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: Muel of Frasier polygraph examination is not in evidence anywhere terrible.
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 3: I'm sure it's in the same file as the list
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 3: of people in the school book depository, the same file
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: that has the list of the car names and tags
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 3: as people exited the parking lot, you know im.
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: Same list of people with the Texas Theater, right, yeah, yeah, Well, Larry,
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: we can't thank you enough for joining us here on
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: the show and Grayson's with your presence and dropping some
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: knowledge about Lee Oswald tonight and uh for everybody out there. Hey.
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: In our description of this very episode, there is a
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 2: link to the JFK Lancer website. Follow that you can
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: use our code Gunman ten to save yourself ten percent
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: off of any ticket package. Will you'll be able to
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: hear Larry present this year and many many others as well,
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: and be looking out for Larry's book comes out January.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 3: Four, January.
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe it is a twenty twenty five pre
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: order on Amazon Now and check out Larry's blog as well.
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: What's your blog site? Again, Larry, there's lots of good information.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 3: Just do Larry Hancock on word press.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think larryhncock dot WordPress dot com. But just
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: google it. You'll find it and there's a lot of
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: good stuff there and you can stay up to date
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: with whatever Larry's got going on.
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Joseph, Yes, and thank you Larry. I mean, this
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: has been a great conversation and you will be back
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: for part two around the release of the book, hopefully
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: early twenty five.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 3: You never know what that will be fun. We can
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 3: go into some more detail. And by the way, it's
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 3: the Lancer Conference, David and I will be exploring something
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 3: you led with.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 6: Uh.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 3: We will be talking about Oswald and the FBI. And
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 3: actually the title is Oswald Games the FBI, which has
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 3: a certain suggestive might be leading to some Yeah, okay,
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 3: but when we need more detail on his what he
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 3: told Wiggley and what the bureaus knew and yeah, that's
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 3: really interesting.
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what is it Martin Martello the New Orleans it's
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: kind of like criminal intelligence that first talked to Oswalt.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, the Martell n OPD officer. Yeah, and actually
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 3: he first talked to him, but one of the fascinating
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 3: things is he didn't. He discontinued the conversation after a
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 3: bit because somehow had he became convinced that Oswell was
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 3: a Cuban. And so they called up somebody from I
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 3: N S. And I N S comes over and starts
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 3: to and interviews Oswell with Martello and it's like, no,
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 3: he's not a Cuban, he's an American. It's like you
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 3: kind of wonder, Okay, we know Oswell speaks Russian, but
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 3: what led that? Just because he was protesting for Cuba.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 3: I guess it's kind of like he must be a Cuban.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 3: But the I N S there was right up front.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 3: It's kind of sure in OPD that no, he's an American.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 3: We can go forward. He's not a Cuban. I'm not
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 3: maybe they wanted him to take him off their hands.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 3: That may have been in it's kind of like, you
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 3: want to state this guy. We don't want him.
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 2: One of them white Cubans like Carlos Caruga.
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, yeah, thank you, there is Sorry, Robert, there's
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: just rarely an episode where we don't reference your work,
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: and we're so appreciated if you came on and.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 3: Uh, well, thank you. It was a great discussion. I
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 3: enjoyed it. Always enjoy it. You'll have good weekend.
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 2: Well hold on, Larry, when I've done yet, we got
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 2: one more thing for you. We end every episode with
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: our buddy Dean Andrews in New Orleans. Okay, it's it's
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 2: like a minute long. Just indulge us for a second.
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: I think you enjoy it.
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 3: Enjoyed Dean. I it's a great character.
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a this is a lovely clip. We
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: let him sing us out on our show. Uh here
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: recently every every episode. So here without further ado. Again,
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: thank you Larry for joining us. Now, Dino take it away, Buddy.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 6: King Parish Prison. He did not talk for the record,
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 6: but he said, come to Bourbon Street and I'll show
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 6: you what I think of the case. The greatest lies
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 6: are told in the name of truth. The greatest crimes
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 6: are committed in the name of justice. The quotation is
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 6: Jim Garrison's. It could be used for him or against
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 6: him in this strange case.
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: Good night, Hey, we caught you dancing, Joe. That's for
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 2: us everybody, Thank you, and we'll see you next week.
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: Thank you everyone, thank you Larry