Latest / The You Project / #1045 Wonder Woman - Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton (PT1)

Transcript

#1045 Wonder Woman - Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton (PT1) · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: Good a Team. It's Harps and Melissa. Just a little
0:02
Speaker 1: pre intro intro. I'm not sure what you would call
0:05
Speaker 1: that a printro. I'm not sure. Fuck it. So I
0:09
Speaker 1: did a conversation very recently with the fabulous Sabrina. It
0:14
Speaker 1: turned out to be quite long, so, as we often do,
0:18
Speaker 1: we chopped it into So this is part one of
0:20
Speaker 1: a two part conversation. Honestly, one of my favorite chats
0:26
Speaker 1: of the last year with somebody who is smart and
0:29
Speaker 1: all of that, accomplished, successful, all of that, but for me,
0:33
Speaker 1: one of the most inspirational people that I've spoken to
0:36
Speaker 1: in a long time. Anyway, this is part one of Sabrina.
0:39
Speaker 1: Enjoy the shit out of it. Good a Team, your
0:44
Speaker 1: bloody champions you. It's typ of course, it is the
0:47
Speaker 1: You project. It's Lates, it's Late's Melissa and I. It's
0:52
Speaker 1: six minutes past nine and I turned into a pumpkin
0:54
Speaker 1: at about nine point thirty Melissa, as you well know,
0:57
Speaker 1: because I get up at five o'clock because you know,
1:00
Speaker 1: I'm a high energy unit. And then we stuffed Sabrina
1:05
Speaker 1: around and anyway, we'll get to Sabrina in a moment.
1:09
Speaker 1: But it's a long day. So I have here. Now
1:11
Speaker 1: I shouldn't say this because it'll ruin my already shonky credibility.
1:15
Speaker 1: I've diet coke in this one, and I have tea
1:18
Speaker 1: in this one. So I have hot and cold caffeine
1:22
Speaker 1: just ready to frontal cortex working like a bloody champion. Melissa,
1:27
Speaker 1: how's your day?
1:28
Speaker 2: Ben?
1:29
Speaker 1: Very good? Thank you very good.
1:31
Speaker 2: It's hard to believe that it's the week of Christmas,
1:33
Speaker 2: but no, very good.
1:35
Speaker 1: How about you are good? And before anyone sends me
1:37
Speaker 1: an email saying, oh, I can't believe you drink die coke,
1:40
Speaker 1: don't fucking bother.
1:41
Speaker 2: I don't care.
1:42
Speaker 1: I don't have it that often, but every now and then,
1:45
Speaker 1: when you got to interview someone super super smart from
1:47
Speaker 1: the other side of the world, you need all your
1:50
Speaker 1: neurons firing. Now. I normally don't read bios because they're
1:54
Speaker 1: kind of boring and it's not great listening, I think,
1:59
Speaker 1: But Sabrina's is so bloody amazing. I'm going to read it.
2:03
Speaker 1: So batt and down the hatches. Get a cup to everyone,
2:06
Speaker 1: Sit in your bean bag, put on your slippers, because
2:08
Speaker 1: this is not brief. Doctor Sabrina Cohen Hatton is one
2:13
Speaker 1: of the few women who have served at the top
2:15
Speaker 1: of the fire service. She combines her role as one
2:17
Speaker 1: of the most senior female firefighters in the UK with
2:21
Speaker 1: work as a research fellow at Cardiff University, where she
2:24
Speaker 1: specializes in behavioral neuroscience, in particular how humans make decisions
2:29
Speaker 1: under pressure. She's been appointed as the National Fire Chiefs
2:33
Speaker 1: Council International Lead, which will be carried out alongside her
2:37
Speaker 1: position of Fire Chief Officer in West Sussex. She also
2:41
Speaker 1: is the author of the Heat of the Moment of
2:44
Speaker 1: Fighters Stories of life and death Decisions Could I be
2:48
Speaker 1: reading this any worse? Showing resilience and determination from a
2:51
Speaker 1: young age, Sabrina was homeless on the streets of South
2:55
Speaker 1: Wales when she was fifteen. After two years on the
2:57
Speaker 1: streets selling the Big issues, she was able to secure
3:00
Speaker 1: accommodation and at eighteen joined the Fire Service. While working
3:04
Speaker 1: as a firefighter, she also studied at Open University, the
3:08
Speaker 1: Open University and then at Cardiff University, completing her PhD
3:11
Speaker 1: Because You're straight Up Smarty Pants in psychology. In the
3:16
Speaker 1: Fire Service, Sabrina became one of his highest ranking female
3:19
Speaker 1: women officers. She climbed the ranks, serving in some of
3:21
Speaker 1: the largest fibrigades in the country while maintaining her academic
3:25
Speaker 1: work with Cardiff University. Her subsequent research into high pressure
3:29
Speaker 1: decision making in the emergency services not only one awards
3:32
Speaker 1: but also influenced policy at a global level. So you're
3:37
Speaker 1: essentially an underachiever, Sabrina, I've been sitting on your ass
3:41
Speaker 1: for twenty years doing not much.
3:45
Speaker 2: I know it's prothetic.
3:46
Speaker 1: I apologize, Yeah, try a bit harder, were you?
3:51
Speaker 2: He was really good to see you guys. Thank you
3:53
Speaker 2: for having me on the show.
3:54
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for being part of it. We really appreciate,
3:57
Speaker 1: you know, all stupidness aside. That's amazing. Congratulations. Do you
4:02
Speaker 1: when you hear people talking about you? What's the feeling?
4:08
Speaker 1: What's there when when some bloke that you've never met
4:10
Speaker 1: on the other side of the world is telling twenty
4:12
Speaker 1: thousand people all about you and it's all this incredible shit,
4:14
Speaker 1: which is, by the way, only a part of it.
4:17
Speaker 1: There's a lot more. Does How do you feel when
4:19
Speaker 1: you hear that?
4:21
Speaker 2: It still feels really surreal. Actually, if I'm honest with you,
4:25
Speaker 2: when I look back to where it all started, you know,
4:28
Speaker 2: there were some really, really tough times and I think
4:31
Speaker 2: everything that I've chosen to do over the course of
4:35
Speaker 2: my both personally and professionally, actually none of it has
4:39
Speaker 2: been easy at all. It's all come with challenges and
4:44
Speaker 2: barriers and stuff thrown at you that you didn't expect
4:48
Speaker 2: and you didn't want to have. But for me, it's
4:51
Speaker 2: just that everyday reminder to keep on going because life
4:55
Speaker 2: is tough and you can't choose what happens to you.
4:57
Speaker 2: You can't even choose how you feel about it, frankly,
4:59
Speaker 2: but you do have agency over is what you choose
5:02
Speaker 2: to do about it next. And that's kind of been
5:04
Speaker 2: my philosophy through everything from homelessness to challenges of working
5:09
Speaker 2: in the fire department, to the challenges of doing trying
5:13
Speaker 2: to do a PhD while you're still working and then
5:17
Speaker 2: combining research. You know, it takes a lot of time
5:21
Speaker 2: and effort and energy and it's not easy. It's really
5:25
Speaker 2: not easy, But it's just that everyday reminder to keep going.
5:29
Speaker 1: Do you think that, like when I listen to you
5:31
Speaker 1: talk about all the stuff that you've done and continue
5:33
Speaker 1: to do, and do you think that the drive that
5:37
Speaker 1: you have is just innate? Is that just is that
5:41
Speaker 1: in your DNA, Or is that that's option one? Option two?
5:46
Speaker 1: Is it a byproduct of where you've been and what
5:48
Speaker 1: you've seen and what you've been through the stuff that
5:50
Speaker 1: you've endured and navigated. Or option three is it a
5:53
Speaker 1: bit of everything?
5:55
Speaker 2: Option C. I think certainly. I think that everybody has
6:00
Speaker 2: as a predisposition towards certain qualities. But whether or not
6:03
Speaker 2: that ever gets extrapolated into the real world is completely
6:07
Speaker 2: dependent on the things that you're exposed to and the
6:09
Speaker 2: way that you respond to those things as well. So
6:11
Speaker 2: I'll give you I'll share with you a story, which
6:14
Speaker 2: is why I think some of it is there is
6:17
Speaker 2: an element to it. My grandparents, my grandmother in particular. Oh,
6:23
Speaker 2: I think they're awesome people. My grandparents were Moroccan Jews,
6:27
Speaker 2: and they were attacked during a pogrom in Gerda in
6:30
Speaker 2: Morocco where they lived in nineteen forty eight, and my
6:32
Speaker 2: grandmother survived a machetti attack. She was attacked and left
6:37
Speaker 2: for dead, and when my grandfather went to collect her body,
6:40
Speaker 2: he had to pull her out from a pile of
6:41
Speaker 2: other copses unfortunately, and she gasped for air. She was
6:44
Speaker 2: still alive, and so they fled Morocco as refugees and
6:48
Speaker 2: they started again. Now, despite this experience, my father was
6:52
Speaker 2: terminally ill and so my grandmother lived with us for
6:54
Speaker 2: a while to care for him. And despite those experiences,
6:58
Speaker 2: what I see from her every day is this kind
7:00
Speaker 2: of tenacity to keep up and keep on going, and
7:03
Speaker 2: this kind of really realistic optimism that everything will be okay.
7:07
Speaker 2: It'll be tough, but it will be okay, and such
7:10
Speaker 2: compassion and empathy and love that still comes from her
7:14
Speaker 2: that I look at her and I think, you know what,
7:15
Speaker 2: the world could throw anything at you, and I know
7:17
Speaker 2: that you'd turn it into something good. So I think
7:20
Speaker 2: there is that kind of that element that comes through
7:23
Speaker 2: not just from from genetically potentially, but also I think
7:31
Speaker 2: from those experiences that you have. There's things that you
7:33
Speaker 2: learn from other people around you which then inform the
7:36
Speaker 2: way that you respond to the environment around you too.
7:41
Speaker 2: I lost my father when I was super young. I
7:43
Speaker 2: was nine years old, and the thing that that taught
7:45
Speaker 2: me is that security isn't guaranteed. Are not safe. It's
7:51
Speaker 2: that fire under your feet that tells you that you
7:54
Speaker 2: know things can happen in life that you don't expect
7:57
Speaker 2: that are really difficult, that it's not always going to
7:59
Speaker 2: be as you might imagine or you might plan, and
8:02
Speaker 2: you have to be able to be reactive to that
8:04
Speaker 2: and responsive to that. And boy, did that ever happen
8:08
Speaker 2: when when I was younger. That was a super super
8:12
Speaker 2: tough time. But that realization that the future isn't guaranteed,
8:16
Speaker 2: that for me is one of the biggest drivers for
8:19
Speaker 2: making it what you want. And it's tiring, you know,
8:22
Speaker 2: it can get exhausting when you choose to do tough things.
8:27
Speaker 2: But you know what, that's the only way we shift
8:29
Speaker 2: the dial is by being brave enough to do those
8:31
Speaker 2: tough things and being okay with knowing you might fail
8:34
Speaker 2: at it, but that's okay because you can get up
8:36
Speaker 2: and do it again. You know.
8:38
Speaker 1: That's a big I think that's I love that amazing story.
8:42
Speaker 1: As your grandma is still alive.
8:44
Speaker 2: She is, she's going to be one hundred in February.
8:47
Speaker 1: Oh God, bless her, God bless her she is. That's amazing.
8:53
Speaker 1: But it's that, you know, it's that willingness to do
8:57
Speaker 1: all the hard things. You know, like from you, we'll
8:59
Speaker 1: get a bit more of your background, but from living
9:02
Speaker 1: on the street when you're fifteen too. Here you are doing,
9:05
Speaker 1: you know, talking to us whatever it is twenty two three,
9:09
Speaker 1: four years later on an international podcast. Not that we're
9:12
Speaker 1: a big deal, but I mean talking to people on
9:14
Speaker 1: the other side of the world about your story and
9:16
Speaker 1: about your journey and about your grandma and about your
9:20
Speaker 1: history and about that like it. But you are where
9:24
Speaker 1: you are as the author, as the academic, as the researcher,
9:28
Speaker 1: as the doctor, as the spokesperson, as this you know,
9:32
Speaker 1: superachiever within the fire brigade, you know, just because not
9:37
Speaker 1: because anyone handed it to you or said here's the key,
9:40
Speaker 1: or not because the opportunity knocked at your door, but
9:43
Speaker 1: because you just, for whatever reason were resilient and ambitious
9:48
Speaker 1: and driven and had a big worth work ethic and
9:52
Speaker 1: fell down and got up a thousand times. Is that
9:56
Speaker 1: Can we develop that as well?
9:59
Speaker 2: Yeah? You can. I really truly believe this. I truly
10:03
Speaker 2: believe that you can develop it. Resilience isn't something that
10:06
Speaker 2: you know you're innately born with and you have your
10:09
Speaker 2: cup full, and depending how full your cup is will
10:12
Speaker 2: depend on how resilient you're ever going to be. I
10:15
Speaker 2: think that you can learn resilience by repeatedly failing, and
10:19
Speaker 2: repeatedly getting up again, and repeatedly going back and trying
10:22
Speaker 2: to fix the thing that didn't work in the first place.
10:25
Speaker 2: Because when that happens, when you fail at something, you
10:28
Speaker 2: also learn to grow, You learn how to get back
10:31
Speaker 2: up again because you have to do it. And so
10:35
Speaker 2: I do think that the more times you put yourself
10:37
Speaker 2: in an uncomfortable situation by failing, by making a mistake,
10:41
Speaker 2: by doing something that's tough that you don't have the
10:43
Speaker 2: confidence that you're ever going to finish. You know, by
10:45
Speaker 2: doing those things, you experience that discomfort, but you put
10:50
Speaker 2: through it anyway. And then when you realize that all
10:52
Speaker 2: of these things that you can do, all of these
10:54
Speaker 2: skills that you have, you can do them when you
10:56
Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable, it means that you're better prepared for the
10:59
Speaker 2: next time. But there is something really powerful for me
11:02
Speaker 2: about failure. I really believe this, because if you don't
11:07
Speaker 2: fail at something, then I don't think that you're trying
11:09
Speaker 2: something that's difficult enough, frankly, and so for me, there
11:14
Speaker 2: is something really powerful about how you respond to failure,
11:18
Speaker 2: not just for yourself, but for other people around you
11:22
Speaker 2: as well. I mean, I'm in the fire Service, I
11:24
Speaker 2: work in a team environment, and it's really important to
11:27
Speaker 2: me that you can create this environment where you know
11:31
Speaker 2: that if somebody fails at something, or if you fail
11:33
Speaker 2: at something, people won't respond with blame or with judgment,
11:37
Speaker 2: but people will respond in the way to say, hey,
11:40
Speaker 2: that's okay, the world will fall down, Let's see how
11:42
Speaker 2: we can pick this up again and put it together.
11:45
Speaker 2: Because when you do that, you create a sense of
11:47
Speaker 2: psychological safety around you. When you have psychological safety, people
11:51
Speaker 2: are going to be more likely to take a risk,
11:54
Speaker 2: they're going to do something differently, and that means they're
11:55
Speaker 2: going to innovate. So I think that's a powerful and
11:58
Speaker 2: I feel really strongly that we should own our failures
12:01
Speaker 2: with as much conviction as we own every success, because frankly,
12:05
Speaker 2: I will learn more about someone from seeing the way
12:07
Speaker 2: they respond to one failure than i'd ever get from
12:10
Speaker 2: a thousand successes. And I think this is part of
12:13
Speaker 2: the problem today, especially with you know, so much social media,
12:16
Speaker 2: we see a really kind of curated version of everybody's life.
12:20
Speaker 2: And I got to look at leaders in the fire service,
12:23
Speaker 2: and they would be these great, big, physically imposing, strapping
12:28
Speaker 2: guys predominantly, predominantly that never seemed to do anything wrong,
12:34
Speaker 2: There always knew the answer to everything, that was so
12:36
Speaker 2: full of confidence, even if the answer is wrong, they
12:39
Speaker 2: would say it was such confidence that everyone would kind
12:41
Speaker 2: of and believe it right. And so I see these
12:44
Speaker 2: people and I'd never see them falter. And I used
12:47
Speaker 2: to think, actually, you know, there are things that make
12:49
Speaker 2: me feel vulnerable. I know that I've made mistakes, I
12:52
Speaker 2: know that I've messed things up, So you know, how
12:54
Speaker 2: can I possibly compare to those? But that's not real.
12:57
Speaker 2: That version isn't real because what you might see is
13:00
Speaker 2: the cherry on top of the cake. You haven't seen
13:02
Speaker 2: everything else that goes into it. You haven't seen all
13:04
Speaker 2: the failures. You haven't seen all the all the repeated,
13:09
Speaker 2: the repeated attempts before they got to that bit. And
13:11
Speaker 2: until we get more comfortable with showing that side of us,
13:14
Speaker 2: it's going to be really tricky, I think, to kind
13:16
Speaker 2: of show other people that actually there is a route through,
13:19
Speaker 2: and it's not clean and it's not easy. But if
13:21
Speaker 2: you're if you're not afraid to roll up your sleeves,
13:24
Speaker 2: then every problem can present as an opportunity. If you're
13:27
Speaker 2: not afraid to roll up with Steves and get your
13:29
Speaker 2: fingernails a bit dirty.
13:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally agree, totally love it. I think I
13:34
Speaker 1: think the irony is doctor Sabrina. I'm going to keep
13:37
Speaker 1: calling you that because you earned it. I think that
13:39
Speaker 1: the irony is that we we try, you know, we have.
13:44
Speaker 1: So there's the person and then quite often the persona right,
13:48
Speaker 1: and what you see with the big, strong, strapping whoever
13:51
Speaker 1: who never has got no fear and never deviates and
13:55
Speaker 1: gets everything right and always looks you know, that's a
13:58
Speaker 1: persona like, that's a fucking act, right. Nobody's that all
14:01
Speaker 1: the time. And of course everybody gets things wrong, and
14:05
Speaker 1: of course everybody at some stage in some situation is insecure,
14:09
Speaker 1: including me. Everybody's got ego, including me. But I think
14:14
Speaker 1: the thing is when you own up to your bullshit
14:17
Speaker 1: a little bit or a lot, people connect with you more.
14:21
Speaker 1: When you're like a cartoon character of perfection, people can't
14:26
Speaker 1: identify and people go, well, clearly, I could never do that,
14:30
Speaker 1: be that, achieve that, because that person he or she
14:34
Speaker 1: is a fucking superhero who's flawless and faultless.
14:39
Speaker 2: You know.
14:39
Speaker 1: But when you can see some of yourself in someone
14:42
Speaker 1: who is doing great things, then all of a sudden,
14:45
Speaker 1: you go, or maybe I can do great things because
14:48
Speaker 1: we ain't that different. Because she's got flaws, he's got flaws.
14:52
Speaker 1: I've got flaws. You know, like you like you're living
14:56
Speaker 1: on the street for two years, I mean that's deaf.
15:00
Speaker 1: Definitely not a privileged upbringing. Well that's definitely not a
15:03
Speaker 1: great starting point. But look at what you've done and
15:06
Speaker 1: where you've been and what you've seen, you know, And
15:09
Speaker 1: it's that that, you know, I really connect with you
15:14
Speaker 1: when you're talking about like falling down and getting up
15:16
Speaker 1: the failure stuff, because it's it's when we do the
15:20
Speaker 1: hard stuff, the uncomfortable, uncertain, unfamiliar, you know, all the
15:25
Speaker 1: stuff that we tend to avoid because we're kind of
15:28
Speaker 1: hardwired for pleasure and for instant gratification. Or it's kind
15:32
Speaker 1: of what controls a lot of us is that we
15:35
Speaker 1: love that familiar, easy, comfortable, quick, painless path. But when
15:39
Speaker 1: we do lean into the mess, when we do lean
15:41
Speaker 1: into the pain, when we do lean into the darkness,
15:43
Speaker 1: sometimes that's where we change. That's where we build strength, resilient, insight, understanding, awareness, competence,
15:51
Speaker 1: you know. And then and then as you talk about
15:55
Speaker 1: performing under pressure, well, if the pressure around ten people
16:00
Speaker 1: is a constant, but in the middle of that, you're
16:02
Speaker 1: the most resilient, the most experienced, the most capable, the
16:06
Speaker 1: most willing to do the hard work, you'll have the
16:08
Speaker 1: best experience in that, or you'll have at least the
16:11
Speaker 1: most control and the most calm.
16:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely right, that's absolutely right. And it's difficult,
16:20
Speaker 2: you know, because life is uncertain and people don't like uncertainty.
16:23
Speaker 2: None of us do. Were hard whined for things to
16:26
Speaker 2: be really simple and clear, so you know, doing it
16:29
Speaker 2: in those kind of environments is tough. But if you're not,
16:33
Speaker 2: if you can find the courage to step forward into that,
16:37
Speaker 2: then I think people would be really surprised at what
16:39
Speaker 2: they're capable of doing and what they're capable of achieving,
16:43
Speaker 2: you know. So it's about starting to feel comfortable with
16:45
Speaker 2: that discomfort. For me, I think is one of the
16:48
Speaker 2: most powerful things as human beings we can do. But look,
16:51
Speaker 2: it's tough, you know, and that point about persona and
16:55
Speaker 2: the reality of who you are is a really important
16:59
Speaker 2: one because you know, as much as we are we
17:02
Speaker 2: want to say we don't care about what people's opinions
17:04
Speaker 2: of us are. The fact is we're human beings and
17:07
Speaker 2: we're hardwired to absorb people's reactions to us as social information.
17:11
Speaker 2: It tells us a lot. So if I think back
17:14
Speaker 2: to the time when I was experiencing homelessness, it was
17:17
Speaker 2: super tough, and people would decide my value. They would
17:20
Speaker 2: decide I was worthless within seconds at nothing more than
17:24
Speaker 2: a glance, you know, and to have people judging you
17:27
Speaker 2: and worse, you know, people were really cruel with the
17:30
Speaker 2: things that they would say. And I've been kicked and
17:32
Speaker 2: punched and spat out more times than I care to remember.
17:34
Speaker 2: But when you go through that and you experience that,
17:37
Speaker 2: I could rationalize, and I could look at that person
17:39
Speaker 2: and think, there are seven billion people in the world,
17:42
Speaker 2: why should I care about your opinion? You know, you
17:45
Speaker 2: don't matter to me, so rationally your response is irrelevant.
17:50
Speaker 2: But then why do I feel so bad? And the
17:53
Speaker 2: reality is you're absorbing that and it informs the way
17:56
Speaker 2: that you expect the next person to respond to you
17:59
Speaker 2: as well, and then it becomes part of your inner
18:02
Speaker 2: narrative and the way that you speak to yourself, and
18:04
Speaker 2: eventually you start to absorb that. So you know, the
18:08
Speaker 2: way that people respond to us does have an impact
18:10
Speaker 2: on us and how we feel about ourselves and how
18:13
Speaker 2: we perceive the world and how we subsequently respond to that,
18:16
Speaker 2: and that can be super tough. So there is something
18:18
Speaker 2: from me that I've learned throughout this experience about how
18:23
Speaker 2: I can't control how people respond to me. I can't.
18:26
Speaker 2: I can respond how I control to other people. And
18:30
Speaker 2: being really aware about the impact that you can have
18:33
Speaker 2: on somebody else, I think is really really powerful and
18:38
Speaker 2: it's something that I try to do every day with
18:41
Speaker 2: whoever I'm with. And some of the people who showed
18:44
Speaker 2: me the most compassion when I was experiencing homelessness were
18:47
Speaker 2: other people who were also experiencing homelessness, and these are
18:50
Speaker 2: the people that others were crossing the road to try
18:52
Speaker 2: to avoid. But for me, everybody has value. Everybody has potential.
18:57
Speaker 2: Sometimes circumstances mean really difficult to find the opportunities that
19:02
Speaker 2: you need to achieve that potential, but it's there. Everybody
19:06
Speaker 2: has value, And do you want to help someone find
19:10
Speaker 2: that value just in the way that you're conducting yourself
19:14
Speaker 2: day to day, in the way someone might respond to you,
19:16
Speaker 2: or do you want to hinder it because it's easy
19:18
Speaker 2: and you can just let out whatever you're feeling or
19:20
Speaker 2: thinking instantly without putting that filter. That filter in place. First, Hey,
19:24
Speaker 2: is me responding in a really judgmental way going to
19:26
Speaker 2: help this person? Or is it going to make them
19:28
Speaker 2: even worse? You know? And the likelihood is actually, if
19:32
Speaker 2: you're responding to someone who's already in a really low
19:34
Speaker 2: place by telling them they're worthless, you're not going to
19:37
Speaker 2: motivate them to do anything differently, So you know, there
19:40
Speaker 2: is something for me about how we contribute to that great, big,
19:45
Speaker 2: universal soup that we all live in. And are you
19:47
Speaker 2: going to do something positive with that or are you
19:49
Speaker 2: going to make it a bit worse for someone that day? Yep?
19:52
Speaker 1: So on the money, tell us about tell us if what,
19:56
Speaker 1: as much or as little as you want. Tell us
19:58
Speaker 1: about being homeless for two living on the street, things
20:01
Speaker 1: sped on, kicked, punched, abused, all of that. How did
20:04
Speaker 1: you end up there? Oh?
20:06
Speaker 2: It was so horrible. Honestly, My father was terminally ill
20:12
Speaker 2: for some time and he died when I was nine,
20:15
Speaker 2: And after that my mom found it really difficult to cope.
20:20
Speaker 2: And so I have a backstory that's by no means
20:22
Speaker 2: unique to me. We lived in abject poverty. There were
20:27
Speaker 2: huge family rifts there, and my mum struggled with her
20:31
Speaker 2: mental health. She broke down, her business failed. And one
20:35
Speaker 2: thing I've always said is that if somebody goes to
20:38
Speaker 2: war with their demons, it's everyone around them that gets
20:40
Speaker 2: hit by the shrapnel. And that was totally the case
20:43
Speaker 2: in our family. And by the time I was fifteen,
20:46
Speaker 2: nearly sixteen, it was too much, it was too difficult.
20:49
Speaker 2: I couldn't cope and I left and that's when I
20:53
Speaker 2: started to sleep rough on the streets of Newport, which
20:57
Speaker 2: is a town in South Wales in the US Okay.
21:01
Speaker 2: And if I can describe Newport to you, it's it's
21:05
Speaker 2: a it's a town with it was a town then
21:06
Speaker 2: it's a city now. But it's a place that has
21:09
Speaker 2: its challenges. It is Deprivation is high, drug use is high,
21:16
Speaker 2: crime is high. It's not a lovely place to be.
21:20
Speaker 2: And I can say that with love because I'm from there,
21:22
Speaker 2: but it's not. It's not a great place. As a
21:26
Speaker 2: sleeping rough there, of all places, was even harder. I
21:30
Speaker 2: think we had a social worker. But when you're when
21:36
Speaker 2: you're raised by someone who loves you very much, but
21:38
Speaker 2: doesn't have either the mental or the physical resources to
21:41
Speaker 2: care for you. Then you see any kind of authority
21:45
Speaker 2: figure through a lens of mistrust. And so I was
21:48
Speaker 2: terrified of going into care, absolutely terrified. So I started
21:52
Speaker 2: to sleep rough, and i'd sleep in shop doorways. I
21:57
Speaker 2: slept in the porch of a derelict church, and so
22:00
Speaker 2: we got moved on. And then i'd sleep in a
22:03
Speaker 2: derelict building sometimes when when I felt safe enough there too,
22:07
Speaker 2: because lots of other people also slept there. People used
22:11
Speaker 2: it for drugs and things. So I would go to
22:14
Speaker 2: sleep and i'd have to by literally by the light
22:18
Speaker 2: of a lighter. I'd be looking around to make sure
22:21
Speaker 2: that there weren't any dirty needles on the floor before
22:23
Speaker 2: i'd bed down for the night. So I didn't always
22:25
Speaker 2: feel safe there. Even though it gave some shelter, it
22:29
Speaker 2: wasn't the safest place to be. But I still went
22:33
Speaker 2: to school every day because I didn't want people to
22:36
Speaker 2: know what I was going through, because I didn't want
22:37
Speaker 2: to end up in hare And that was really hard.
22:40
Speaker 2: And I'll give you I'll give you an example of
22:42
Speaker 2: how tough this was. One day I decided I wanted
22:47
Speaker 2: to go to sleep somewhere light. And that sounds a
22:49
Speaker 2: bit daft when I say it out loud now as
22:52
Speaker 2: a grown woman, but it was just fed up of
22:54
Speaker 2: not even having the control to turn a light on
22:58
Speaker 2: or off. So I went to sleep in a subway
23:02
Speaker 2: because it had the strip lighting there. And I put
23:04
Speaker 2: my cardboard down, because when you go to sleep on concrete,
23:08
Speaker 2: it's so cold. It doesn't matter how warm it might
23:11
Speaker 2: be outside. It's so cold it like literally leeches the
23:16
Speaker 2: heat from your bones. It's awful. So I'd always sleep
23:18
Speaker 2: on cardboard. I had a sleeping bag and I bed
23:21
Speaker 2: it down for the night, and I had a stray dog,
23:24
Speaker 2: straight dog. I was a stray girl. It seemed to work.
23:26
Speaker 2: And he used to sleep in the bottom of my
23:28
Speaker 2: sleeping bag. And we'll touch on dogs a bit later,
23:31
Speaker 2: but he would sleep in the bottom of my sleeping bag.
23:35
Speaker 2: And the one this day, I woke up, it must
23:38
Speaker 2: have been early hours of the morning. I couldn't tell
23:40
Speaker 2: you exactly, but I woke up to the sound of
23:43
Speaker 2: some drunk guy laughing, and I kind of I poked
23:47
Speaker 2: my head up on my sleeping bag with felt warm
23:49
Speaker 2: and wet, and I just thought. My initial reaction was,
23:51
Speaker 2: oh my god, my dog's gone to the toilet my
23:54
Speaker 2: sleeping bag. But as I poked my head out, I
23:56
Speaker 2: could see this guy leaning back on his heels with
23:59
Speaker 2: his kind of belt undone, just laughing. He was urinating
24:03
Speaker 2: on my sleeping bag. He thought it would be hilarious
24:06
Speaker 2: on his way back from the club or the pub
24:08
Speaker 2: or whatever to do that to the first homeless person
24:11
Speaker 2: he saw, which happened to be me, And it was
24:14
Speaker 2: the most dehumanizing and humiliating experience. But look, I don't
24:20
Speaker 2: think that he thought this through because, as it transpires,
24:24
Speaker 2: dogs don't particularly like being urinated on in the middle
24:27
Speaker 2: of the night either, And that's not the kind of
24:29
Speaker 2: thing you want to wave around. And I don't think
24:32
Speaker 2: you'll be doing it again anytime soon. But you know,
24:36
Speaker 2: but the hang on, hang.
24:37
Speaker 1: On, are you telling me the dog beat him on
24:39
Speaker 1: the dick?
24:41
Speaker 2: Well, I'm telling you I don't think he'll do it
24:42
Speaker 2: again soon, because I didn't think that he wanted the
24:44
Speaker 2: response that he got from the angry dog.
24:46
Speaker 1: So I hope, I hope you dog beat him on
24:49
Speaker 1: the dick. That's the best, Well, that's the best out
24:52
Speaker 1: of a bad story ever he was, and there's the
24:55
Speaker 1: title for the show. You're welcome, Thanks everyone. That was Sabrina,
25:01
Speaker 1: the bloke who got his dick bit. Sorry, keep going
25:04
Speaker 1: to the pirna.
25:05
Speaker 2: No, no, it's fine, it's fine, but look the practicality
25:09
Speaker 2: of that. I had nowhere to go, no clean bedding,
25:12
Speaker 2: I had no clean clothes. So I went and I
25:15
Speaker 2: just sat on a bench in the middle of the
25:17
Speaker 2: town center, and I pulled my knees up to my
25:20
Speaker 2: chest and I just sat there, stopping. I was sixteen
25:22
Speaker 2: at this time. I sat there sobbing until the sun
25:25
Speaker 2: came up the next morning, and then the bus station
25:29
Speaker 2: toilets would open up at about six o'clock in the morning.
25:31
Speaker 2: So I went down. I went to the sink. I
25:33
Speaker 2: cleaned myself as best as I could. I went into
25:36
Speaker 2: the toilet cubicle. I locked the door behind me. I
25:38
Speaker 2: put my bag on the toilet seat, and I pulled
25:41
Speaker 2: out a scrumpled up school uniform, and I took off
25:43
Speaker 2: my urine smelling clothes. I put my uniform and then
25:47
Speaker 2: I waited for the bus and I went to school.
25:50
Speaker 2: No one would have known why I was responding the
25:53
Speaker 2: way I was that day, or behaving the way that
25:55
Speaker 2: I was that day, or had no interest in learning
25:58
Speaker 2: or anything. No one would have what I went through,
26:01
Speaker 2: but I did, and it was awful. And again it's
26:04
Speaker 2: another early lesson in empathy for me, because we meet
26:06
Speaker 2: people every day, right that we think, I really don't
26:09
Speaker 2: understand your perspective or no idea why you're responding like that,
26:13
Speaker 2: you'll bang out of line, But actually we never know
26:15
Speaker 2: what they've been through that day before we've had that
26:17
Speaker 2: interaction either. So it was a really timely reminder. But
26:21
Speaker 2: I had some really difficult times. And I just want
26:26
Speaker 2: to touch on that point about a dog, because I
26:28
Speaker 2: know lots of people have opinions on people experiencing homelessness
26:32
Speaker 2: who have dogs. And I say that very deliberately because
26:37
Speaker 2: homelessness is an experience. You're not a homeless person. That
26:39
Speaker 2: shouldn't be part of your identity. But lots of people
26:43
Speaker 2: would pass judgment at me because I had a dog.
26:47
Speaker 2: He was my companion, and it was really horrible some
26:51
Speaker 2: of the stuff that people would say, You know, you
26:52
Speaker 2: can't even look after yourself. Who the hell do you
26:54
Speaker 2: think you are having a dog? You're cruel, You're this,
26:56
Speaker 2: you're that. But Actually, no one ends up experiencing homelessness
27:01
Speaker 2: unless they are completely socially isolated. So that dog, he
27:06
Speaker 2: was the only source of social comfort and emotional comfort
27:11
Speaker 2: and stability that I had for me. That relationship was
27:16
Speaker 2: so meaningful. He was where my world started and where
27:20
Speaker 2: it ended in a place where everything else was super chaotic.
27:25
Speaker 2: He was the one stability, piece of stability that I had,
27:29
Speaker 2: and he got cared for better than me, by the way.
27:32
Speaker 2: But dogs are a super important part of my life now.
27:34
Speaker 2: I've got three and always keep dogs, and I just
27:39
Speaker 2: love that point of connection that they can give and
27:43
Speaker 2: that companionship that they can offer when you can otherwise
27:47
Speaker 2: be completely isolated and lonely from everything else. They're amazing, amazing.
27:54
Speaker 1: We love dogs at the EU Project, we do, we do.
27:57
Speaker 1: We're both dog people. Melissa's crazy dogs and there we do.
28:03
Speaker 1: We love dogs, so we completely understand. But also the
28:06
Speaker 1: thing is dogs love you, you know, unconditionally. There's no hooks,
28:11
Speaker 1: catchers and genders and who people think, Tony because you
28:14
Speaker 1: give them food. Have never had a dog. It's so
28:17
Speaker 1: not just about that. Unless it's a Labrador, then it's
28:22
Speaker 1: all about food. I'm many kidding.
28:27
Speaker 2: Don't send just about to start some canine research as well.
28:31
Speaker 2: So I've got all the kind of human decision making
28:33
Speaker 2: stuff going on, but I've got a bit of a
28:35
Speaker 2: passion project looking at dogs and in particular extreme behavioral
28:39
Speaker 2: problems and what we can do to try to extinguish
28:42
Speaker 2: those behaviors rather than these dogs being put to sleep.
28:46
Speaker 2: But as a result, I've been looking at loads of
28:48
Speaker 2: the neuroscience around dogs, and they actually get something very
28:52
Speaker 2: specific about their interaction with a human in comparison to
28:55
Speaker 2: their interaction with another dog. And so the amazing thing
29:00
Speaker 2: about dogs is they've survived for thousands of years predominantly
29:04
Speaker 2: by living by cohabiting within human social groups. So they've
29:08
Speaker 2: evolved these exemplary cross species communication skills that are unparalleled
29:14
Speaker 2: in the rest of the animal kingdom. So I can
29:17
Speaker 2: guarantee you that when your dog looks at you, when
29:19
Speaker 2: your dog is gazing into your eyes, the research has
29:22
Speaker 2: shown that they're releasing oxytocin, which we know in humans
29:25
Speaker 2: it's been associated with trust and social bonding and even love.
29:29
Speaker 2: It's a really super important neuropeptide. So anyway, dogs are
29:33
Speaker 2: releasing that when they're looking at you. So they may
29:36
Speaker 2: well be experiencing some kind of rudimentary form of love,
29:40
Speaker 2: but they certainly get something different from their relationship with
29:43
Speaker 2: humans than they do with other dogs. And it's not
29:45
Speaker 2: just it's not just the dopaminergic pleasure pathways that they
29:49
Speaker 2: get by going, Oh, you're going to give me food.
29:51
Speaker 2: I'm associating you with food. It's a deeper, different kind
29:55
Speaker 2: of relationship that is also linked with their social bonding
29:59
Speaker 2: that they have with you.
30:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you. Yep, yep. Don't have to convince me.
30:08
Speaker 1: What made you? It's probably not the right question. How
30:13
Speaker 1: did you end up in being a firefighter or a
30:20
Speaker 1: fire off? So I don't know what the correct term
30:22
Speaker 1: is in Britain, But how did that opportunity present itself?
30:26
Speaker 1: Is it something you pursued? Is that a door that opened?
30:29
Speaker 1: How did you end up doing that?
30:31
Speaker 2: Well? Initially, I hadn't thought about anything more than surviving
30:35
Speaker 2: day today when I was experiencing homelessness. When you're in
30:39
Speaker 2: that position, you don't necessarily have the headspace to put
30:43
Speaker 2: a strategy together to live because it is literally a
30:46
Speaker 2: surviving day to day. And I started to sell a
30:49
Speaker 2: street magazine called The Big Issue. I don't know if
30:52
Speaker 2: you have an equivalent. We have amazing, amazing.
30:56
Speaker 1: It's sold literally on the street that I live.
30:59
Speaker 2: A fantastic, fantastic well. The big issue for me was
31:03
Speaker 2: it was a lifeline and I'd buy this magazine for
31:06
Speaker 2: cost price and I'd sell it on for a profit,
31:09
Speaker 2: and eventually I started to sell it in Newport, but
31:12
Speaker 2: there were quite a few other people that also sold
31:14
Speaker 2: it in Newport, so you were kind of hand to mouth.
31:16
Speaker 2: So I found this village. It was an hour away
31:19
Speaker 2: on a bus, but no one else was selling it there,
31:21
Speaker 2: so it was a place called Monmoth. I would get
31:23
Speaker 2: on a bus, I'd sit there from seven o'clock in
31:25
Speaker 2: the morning till seven o'clock at night, till i'd sold
31:27
Speaker 2: a stack of magazines and eventually I managed to earn
31:31
Speaker 2: enough to put a deposit down on a very cheap
31:33
Speaker 2: and very nasty rented flat in the South Wales Valleys.
31:36
Speaker 2: There are a few failed attempts at secure accommodation, including
31:40
Speaker 2: a shared house that I managed to get a room in,
31:43
Speaker 2: but I was quite violently attacked one of the guys.
31:45
Speaker 2: They put me in hospital, so I was back out
31:47
Speaker 2: on the streets. I spent some time living in a van,
31:51
Speaker 2: but eventually secure accommodation became a reality for me, and
31:56
Speaker 2: it was at that point I started to think what
31:58
Speaker 2: else might become a reality for me. And the reason
32:01
Speaker 2: I started to think about the fire service is because
32:05
Speaker 2: I think it's actually a real privilege to be a
32:07
Speaker 2: firefighter because people trust you to know what to do
32:11
Speaker 2: when they're having the worst day of their lives. They
32:13
Speaker 2: don't call you unless they don't know what to do next.
32:16
Speaker 2: It's an extreme situation and so to be the one
32:19
Speaker 2: that's trusted to know what to do to either stop
32:22
Speaker 2: that or at least stop it getting any worse, that's
32:26
Speaker 2: really incredible. And I felt like I could relate to
32:29
Speaker 2: it because I'd had the best part of two years
32:31
Speaker 2: of feeling like I was the desperate one in need
32:33
Speaker 2: of help but no one was coming. And although the
32:37
Speaker 2: context was different, I think the sentiment was the same.
32:41
Speaker 2: And so I started to look at the fire service
32:43
Speaker 2: and I must have applied to about thirty different fire
32:47
Speaker 2: departments before or fire services is there in the UK
32:50
Speaker 2: before I actually got a position. It was super tough
32:54
Speaker 2: and super competitive. I started off part time as a
32:57
Speaker 2: retained firefighters like a volunteer fighter and then eventually got
33:02
Speaker 2: a whole time position and I was woman number seven
33:06
Speaker 2: in a workforce of seventeen hundred men. When I first started, nationally,
33:11
Speaker 2: only one percent of operational firefighters were women, so they
33:14
Speaker 2: were very, very few of us, and I naively kind
33:17
Speaker 2: of went in thinking, Hey, this is going to be
33:18
Speaker 2: amazing and it's going to be like one big, happy family.
33:22
Speaker 2: And it was that point that I realized what sexism
33:25
Speaker 2: actually felt like. You know, it was super And Whilst
33:28
Speaker 2: I worked with some incredible people who are still like
33:31
Speaker 2: big brothers and sisters to me to this very day,
33:33
Speaker 2: who pushed me to do things that I never thought
33:35
Speaker 2: I was capable of, I also worked with some people
33:38
Speaker 2: who took exception to the fact that I was a
33:41
Speaker 2: woman and if I could do it, then I think
33:44
Speaker 2: it made them feel less matcho. It was a It
33:48
Speaker 2: affected their sense of identity and their sense of who
33:50
Speaker 2: they were, so it doesn't didn't matter who I was.
33:53
Speaker 2: The fact that I was coming in is something that
33:55
Speaker 2: was so far removed from how they saw themselves and
33:59
Speaker 2: was okay doing it? You know I was, I could
34:02
Speaker 2: do it, I could do the job. That then says
34:06
Speaker 2: to that person Hey, that's completely different to the way
34:09
Speaker 2: that you see yourself. And so I think some men
34:12
Speaker 2: have found it slightly emasculinating. Not everybody, but some, and
34:16
Speaker 2: the ones that did were really prepared to let me
34:18
Speaker 2: know about it. In fact, there was this one guy
34:21
Speaker 2: that I used to come across who worked at a
34:23
Speaker 2: neighboring station. Every time i'd see him, without fail, he'd say, Yeah,
34:28
Speaker 2: the thing is, I just don't agree with women in
34:29
Speaker 2: the fire service. No offense to you, Sabrina, you know,
34:32
Speaker 2: but I just don't agree with it. It's not a thing.
34:34
Speaker 2: It shouldn't happen. It's dangerous. You know, you'll get firefighters killed.
34:38
Speaker 2: And eventually, bear in mind, I was eighteen at this point,
34:41
Speaker 2: and I kind of thought, I need to apologize for
34:43
Speaker 2: my own existence here do I. But then eventually I
34:46
Speaker 2: kind of got to the point where I'd be like, no,
34:48
Speaker 2: I'm not having this, and I'd say, yeah, you know,
34:50
Speaker 2: I get it. I feel you. I feel exactly the
34:52
Speaker 2: same way about morons in the fire service. Shouldn't no
34:56
Speaker 2: offense to you, fella, But here we are, you know, idiot.
35:02
Speaker 1: You know what would be the perfect end to that story,
35:05
Speaker 1: And now I'm his boss. That would be so good,
35:12
Speaker 1: And now he drives me to appointments now, me and
35:17
Speaker 1: my dog.
35:19
Speaker 2: I suspect he's actually re tired now. But look, you know,
35:22
Speaker 2: I mean, we've all said things in the past that
35:24
Speaker 2: we regret, right, And we've all said things that have
35:27
Speaker 2: hurt someone and maybe we didn't realize it at the time.
35:29
Speaker 2: And I hope that as time has moved on, he's
35:32
Speaker 2: had the chance to reflect on that. I don't know how.
35:34
Speaker 2: Maybe he's had a daughter in the meantime and he's
35:37
Speaker 2: kind of seen firsthand some of the challenges and how
35:39
Speaker 2: it affects someone. But you know, I don't hold it
35:42
Speaker 2: against him. Everyone can change. Everyone is entitled to have
35:46
Speaker 2: an opinion, regardless of whether I agree with it or not.
35:49
Speaker 2: But if it's a harmful one, hey, it gives us
35:51
Speaker 2: a chance to call it out and talk about it.
35:53
Speaker 2: And here I am now, you know, twenty one years later,
35:56
Speaker 2: being able to talk about it and talk about the
35:58
Speaker 2: damage that it does because people, you'll have those conversations today,
36:02
Speaker 2: So it's an opportunity.
36:05
Speaker 1: So you still currently am I right, Sabrenna and saying
36:08
Speaker 1: you're the current Chief Fire Officer of West Sussex Fire
36:11
Speaker 1: and rescue service. So does that mean you how many
36:15
Speaker 1: people at that station are you in charge of?
36:21
Speaker 2: So it's a fire to it's a fire service rather
36:24
Speaker 2: rather than just a station. So we have twenty five
36:27
Speaker 2: stations in my fire service all in all nearly one
36:32
Speaker 2: thousand stuff but just under a thousand stuff.
36:34
Speaker 1: You're in charge of one thousand staff and twenty five
36:37
Speaker 1: centers or stations. Wow, that's bloody amazing.
36:41
Speaker 2: Good for you.
36:42
Speaker 1: That is so incredible, all right, and I'm not surprised.
36:50
Speaker 1: I'm just impressed. What's your if there is one? What's
36:56
Speaker 1: your leadership style? Because it definitely ain't old mate that
36:59
Speaker 1: you just spoke about before.
37:01
Speaker 2: No, No, definitely not. And I think you know, it
37:03
Speaker 2: changes depending on the context. There are times when you
37:06
Speaker 2: need to be quite authoritative to get a job done,
37:10
Speaker 2: particularly operationally, but I always try to do it with
37:12
Speaker 2: empathy and with humility. So for me, the most important
37:16
Speaker 2: thing about your day to day leadership, I think is
37:19
Speaker 2: to lead without ego and to lead with humility and
37:22
Speaker 2: to be okay with vulnerability. You know, in my experiences
37:26
Speaker 2: they've been they were really tough to talk about. You know,
37:29
Speaker 2: it took me more than twenty years to talk about
37:31
Speaker 2: my experience of homelessness because it made me feel a
37:33
Speaker 2: shape it shouldn't, but that's that's the truth. That's how
37:37
Speaker 2: that was, that kind of aching feeling in my stomach
37:40
Speaker 2: that I got every time I tried to talk to
37:42
Speaker 2: anyone about it, and it made me feel like I
37:45
Speaker 2: couldn't be like those other leaders that I'd see in
37:48
Speaker 2: the fire industry, in the fire department that would be
37:51
Speaker 2: you know, that would always know the answers and they
37:53
Speaker 2: would always be the ones that you want to say
37:55
Speaker 2: and you ought to do and made everyone feel safe
37:57
Speaker 2: and secure, or so I thought. The reality is actually,
38:01
Speaker 2: when somebody is so imposing on you, it can make
38:04
Speaker 2: you feel insecure, not secure, because you have those vulnerabilities. Right.
38:08
Speaker 2: So for me, it is about being self aware always
38:13
Speaker 2: and leading that humility and putting other people's needs in
38:16
Speaker 2: front of your own. You know, when anyone goes into
38:18
Speaker 2: a workplace, right I see it. I choose to see
38:23
Speaker 2: it like a family, And I know there are lots
38:25
Speaker 2: of reasons why you may not want to do that,
38:27
Speaker 2: because you know family and work boundaries are separation. I
38:31
Speaker 2: think for me, in this industry, given its high risk,
38:35
Speaker 2: given you rely so deeply on those other people around
38:38
Speaker 2: you to be able to do extraordinary things to save
38:42
Speaker 2: people's lives. I think it is important that you recognize
38:45
Speaker 2: that bond and that element of trust within that. So
38:48
Speaker 2: I do see it as a family. And I look
38:51
Speaker 2: at my own daughter, and she's twelve now, and you know,
38:54
Speaker 2: I send her to school. I try to give her
38:56
Speaker 2: all the experiences that I can, so she'll grow up
38:58
Speaker 2: to be a successful human being, right, and she'll be
39:01
Speaker 2: good for the world generally, and she'll be good to
39:04
Speaker 2: people in the world. So as a parent, try to
39:06
Speaker 2: give your child all that, and then they go off
39:09
Speaker 2: and they go into the world of work, and you
39:11
Speaker 2: let go of the reins, and then you're trusting that
39:14
Speaker 2: whatever organization they go into are going to treat them
39:17
Speaker 2: with the same kind of dignity, the same kind of respect,
39:19
Speaker 2: give them that opportunity for growth, give them the opportunity
39:23
Speaker 2: to be part of something that's bigger than themselves. And
39:27
Speaker 2: so I think, certainly for me, when you talk about
39:29
Speaker 2: leadership style, I want it to feel like that. I
39:34
Speaker 2: want it to feel like we're caring for people, like
39:36
Speaker 2: they're part of our own family, and we might not
39:39
Speaker 2: always get it right, you know, not everyone is going
39:41
Speaker 2: to have the perfect experience within that but as part
39:45
Speaker 2: and parcel of it being real, because you respond to
39:48
Speaker 2: those things and you make it better, so someone else
39:50
Speaker 2: has a better experience that comes in behind them. But
39:54
Speaker 2: I'm not afraid to fail, and I'm not afraid to
39:57
Speaker 2: talk about those failures because I think that that is
39:59
Speaker 2: a super import part of how other people can then
40:02
Speaker 2: find what they need to be able to do something difficult,
40:05
Speaker 2: or to do something innovative or something that comes with
40:09
Speaker 2: a degree of risk, because they're not afraid that failure
40:12
Speaker 2: means that that's terminal. So that's the way that I
40:16
Speaker 2: tried to look at it. It's not always it's not
40:19
Speaker 2: always easy. I try to combine. I do combine my
40:24
Speaker 2: research work with my day job as well, and we
40:27
Speaker 2: do a lot of work around firefighter safety, and that's
40:29
Speaker 2: based on the same principle for me about how we
40:34
Speaker 2: can genuinely make things better, how we can help you.
40:38
Speaker 2: And that research actually came from an experience that I
40:42
Speaker 2: had where my husband and I, before we were married,
40:46
Speaker 2: were both firefighters on neighboring stations, and one day I
40:50
Speaker 2: was called to deal with an incident where another firefighter
40:52
Speaker 2: had been severely burned, and there was a one and
40:54
Speaker 2: four chance it was him, and so I had awful
40:58
Speaker 2: sinking feeling where I went down. We were in the
41:01
Speaker 2: appliance bay, the bells had gone down that a couple
41:04
Speaker 2: of guys were stood at the teleprinter looking at the
41:07
Speaker 2: sheet of paper. And it took me a few seconds
41:10
Speaker 2: to register why everyone was kind of looking so worried
41:13
Speaker 2: and so nervous. And I said, what is it? And
41:15
Speaker 2: I said it's a firefighter injury. It looks really bad.
41:18
Speaker 2: And I said, well, why aren't we going? And they
41:20
Speaker 2: said it's it's Mike's truck. It might be Mike. And
41:23
Speaker 2: I felt what a world collapsed at that point, And
41:27
Speaker 2: I felt like I was about to become one of
41:29
Speaker 2: the people that we see every day who wake up
41:31
Speaker 2: to a bowl of corn flakes and complete normality, only
41:35
Speaker 2: for something to happen unexpectedly and their entire world gets
41:38
Speaker 2: torn apart. And as we were traveling there, I remember
41:41
Speaker 2: thinking that I was really torn between the role of
41:44
Speaker 2: a responder and all of the kind of responsibility and
41:48
Speaker 2: accountability that goes with that, but also the role of
41:50
Speaker 2: a loved one and all of the kind the kind
41:53
Speaker 2: of fears and anxieties that go with that as well. Anyway,
41:58
Speaker 2: we turned up and thankfully for me at least, it
42:01
Speaker 2: turned out not to be him, but it was our
42:03
Speaker 2: colleague who was also a friend. And it was after
42:08
Speaker 2: that that I al really started to think about this
42:09
Speaker 2: and it played on my mind. And what they've been
42:11
Speaker 2: called to was an exploding pavement. I don't know what
42:13
Speaker 2: your experiences of either explosions or pavements, but they don't
42:17
Speaker 2: traditionally tend to go together. So they turned up eating
42:19
Speaker 2: it as a hoax. They thought it was nonsense. What
42:22
Speaker 2: it actually was was an underground electrical junction box that
42:25
Speaker 2: had a fault in it, and periodically, as electricity went
42:28
Speaker 2: through it, it would shoot up flame like a jet engine
42:31
Speaker 2: at the ground and Mike had been lying on his
42:33
Speaker 2: belly with his head in the pit, poking around, wondering
42:35
Speaker 2: what on earth this so called exploding pavement could be.
42:38
Speaker 2: And it was as he got up to put the
42:39
Speaker 2: lid back in that it exploded and caught our colleague
42:42
Speaker 2: clean in the face. Thankfully, he survived and he's made
42:45
Speaker 2: a full recovery now. But if it was seconds earlier,
42:48
Speaker 2: there's no doubt in my mind that Mike would have
42:50
Speaker 2: been killed outright. And so after that I started to
42:54
Speaker 2: feel this intense sense of guilt because I felt like
42:57
Speaker 2: by not wanting it to be him so much stick
43:00
Speaker 2: on someone else. And I found that really difficult to reconcile.
43:03
Speaker 2: And it was then that I started to look at
43:05
Speaker 2: what we could do to make it better for other
43:07
Speaker 2: people in the same kind of circumstance, And naively, I thought,
43:11
Speaker 2: if we can develop a better burns pack, maybe we'd
43:13
Speaker 2: be better prepared. So I started off trying to do that,
43:16
Speaker 2: and as I started to look into it, I discovered
43:19
Speaker 2: something that astounded me, and that's the majority of injuries
43:22
Speaker 2: across all industries, not just fire, happened as a result
43:25
Speaker 2: of human error, not a problem with a piece of
43:27
Speaker 2: equipment or a flawed policy, but a human mistake. The
43:30
Speaker 2: wrong choice in the wrong place at the wrong time.
43:33
Speaker 2: For that meant someone would get hurt. And so that
43:35
Speaker 2: for me was the driver to go back and look
43:38
Speaker 2: at what we could do to understand human error to
43:40
Speaker 2: reduce it. And so, as you know, I left home
43:44
Speaker 2: really early at fifteen. I left school at sixteen, so
43:47
Speaker 2: I didn't have a degree or qualification. So I thought Okay,
43:50
Speaker 2: I'll put one foot in front of the other and
43:52
Speaker 2: see where I end up. So I went back to
43:53
Speaker 2: night school. I did my degree part time while working
43:57
Speaker 2: all the way up to a PhD, which I did
44:00
Speaker 2: around work. So I'd go into the lab at five
44:02
Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning, I'd run my experiments. I'd go
44:05
Speaker 2: and i'd pull a full shift in the fire service.
44:07
Speaker 2: I'd go home, put my new one baby to bed
44:09
Speaker 2: because that was amazing timing, wasn't it, And I'd go
44:12
Speaker 2: back to the lab for the night shift, and I'd
44:14
Speaker 2: be there until kind of twelve one o'clock in the
44:16
Speaker 2: morning sometimes. So I finished a seven year part time
44:19
Speaker 2: PhD in three years. They had to re register me
44:22
Speaker 2: as full time so I could submit early. And then
44:26
Speaker 2: since then for the last decade, now, well it will
44:30
Speaker 2: be more than that was twenty ten that we started,
44:32
Speaker 2: So more than a decade. We've been looking at how
44:35
Speaker 2: firefighters and frontline responders make decisions actually in the heat
44:41
Speaker 2: of the moment, actually at incidents live. We can understand
44:46
Speaker 2: them better so that we can find techniques that can
44:48
Speaker 2: help them to make better decisions, and we develop some
44:51
Speaker 2: techniques in the UK that actually changed our national policy,
44:54
Speaker 2: for the way that we respond to incidents, for how
44:57
Speaker 2: we train our firefighters differently now to make decisions in
45:01
Speaker 2: a different way because of this research and this work
45:04
Speaker 2: that we did, and so, you know, coming from such
45:07
Speaker 2: a kind of small a corner of an idea, you know,
45:10
Speaker 2: I'm so pleased that we were able to do something practical,
45:13
Speaker 2: and we've notched the science along as well. We're up
45:16
Speaker 2: to our I think tenth Global Science Award for the work.
45:23
Speaker 2: It's been incredible and I never ever would have thought
45:27
Speaker 2: when I look back to how I felt when we
45:29
Speaker 2: were on that truck and I felt like my entire
45:32
Speaker 2: world was going to collapse in that moment. When I
45:35
Speaker 2: look back to that particular point in time and I
45:38
Speaker 2: think where we are now, what we've been able to do,
45:41
Speaker 2: I would never have been able to see it at
45:43
Speaker 2: the time. Someone would have said, Hey, this awful thing
45:46
Speaker 2: is going to happen, but you know what, it's going
45:50
Speaker 2: to be the biggest opportunity that you're going to have.
45:53
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have take them. There's no way I could
45:55
Speaker 2: have seen it. But it's true. It's true.
45:59
Speaker 1: What a beautiful synergy between your job and your or
46:03
Speaker 1: your two jobs really your research job and you know,
46:06
Speaker 1: your firefight, your job in the fire service, you know,
46:09
Speaker 1: and to be able to you know, use both of them,
46:14
Speaker 1: and to be able to use your research background and
46:17
Speaker 1: your role as a PhD and all of that, but
46:20
Speaker 1: to be able to carry out that kind of research.
46:26
Speaker 1: And I guess you don't struggle for participants because you
46:29
Speaker 1: can just go you're a participant. What do you mean
46:33
Speaker 1: you don't want to?
46:33
Speaker 2: Yes, you are? You know, like that way.
46:40
Speaker 1: To all our people, our listeners, who are going, what
46:43
Speaker 1: are we talking about? When you do PhD research? One
46:46
Speaker 1: of the struggles and I've been very fortunate also because
46:49
Speaker 1: they have an audience, Sabrena. But one of the big
46:52
Speaker 1: struggles is actually to get people to participate in your
46:55
Speaker 1: studies because people like, how what's in it for me?
46:58
Speaker 1: But I guess when you're in charge of a thousand people,
47:01
Speaker 1: you go right and you two hundred are doing this,
47:04
Speaker 1: You're welcome, and it's all for the greater good.
47:07
Speaker 2: We always got for volunteers, We always got for volunteers.
47:10
Speaker 2: But to be fair, I think, you know, improving the
47:13
Speaker 2: safety of firefighters is something that all firefights cared deeply
47:17
Speaker 2: about because these are people that we're really close to.
47:20
Speaker 2: You know that it's not it's not just a colleague,
47:22
Speaker 2: it's it's more than that. So anything that we can
47:25
Speaker 2: do to keep people around us safer, I find people
47:28
Speaker 2: are really willing to get involved with. So we've been
47:30
Speaker 2: really blessed. Actually, we've had no shortage of volunteers for
47:33
Speaker 2: the for the research that we've been doing over.
47:36
Speaker 1: Of course you're their fucking boss, as if they're going.
47:38
Speaker 2: To say no.
47:42
Speaker 1: Amazingly, Amazingly, we've had no shortage. Well of course you're
47:47
Speaker 1: thess Oh god, just hitting the pause button momentarily as
47:54
Speaker 1: we do. Team will be back tomorrow with part two
47:57
Speaker 1: of this conversation. Stand by, enjoy your day