Latest / Doug Reads With Friends / Ep 7: AI Ethics, PosseLove & Culpability (with Dr. Lana Mahgoub)

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Ep 7: AI Ethics, PosseLove & Culpability (with Dr. Lana Mahgoub) · Doug Reads With Friends

• Doug Cutchins: Hello friends and welcome back to Doug Reads with Friends. It's a podcast in which I, Doug, invite my friends to choose a book and come on the podcast. We both read the book and here on the podcast, we talk about the book. We talk about their life. We talk about our friendship, anything that we want to. The book is an excuse for me to call up my friends and have a good conversation with them. Today, today in episode seven, Once again, you, Lana, for being a member of my Posse for being my friend and coming on the podcast and for picking a terrific book, which I enjoyed reading. Again, this was an excellent, excellent novel. And as Lana I both said, we would both strongly recommend this book. I think it's very timely now. AI is a topic all thinking about. ⁓ I think whatever you however use or don't use AI, this book will help. In 2010. my entire life changed in a really wonderful and positive way because that was the year that I became a Posse mentor at Grinnell College. The Posse Foundation, which we're going to talk about here in a bit, is one of my absolute favorite organizations on the planet and brought 10 of the absolute best people in the world into my life where they are today. Now here we are coming up on 16 years later. challenge you in thinking about the ethics of it and the role that it may play in your life. Okay, will be back for conversation with, I about to say one of my oldest friends, but does that indicate that he's very, very old? That's not what I mean to indicate. What I mean to indicate is that I've known him longer than ⁓ just about any other friend that I have. Hornik and I go back to when I was We get to have a conversation with Dr. Lana Mahgoub Lana is a Grinnell College alum and was a member of a Posse at Grinnell College that I got to mentor. If you're not familiar with the Posse Foundation, we talk about it a bit here in this conversation. It is a wonderful, wonderful organization that changed my life certainly. And I know the members of the Posse that Lana. All 10 of them are eventually to appear on the podcast. But today, Lana Mahgoub is here today to join the podcast and talk about the book she chose. First of all, Lana, ⁓ welcome to the podcast. was in. I am going to have all 10 members of the Posse on eventually, and was thrilled to be able to have the first one today with Lana. We talked about the book, Culpability, by Bruce Holsinger, a wonderful novel, a challenging novel which has AI at the heart of it. It a great conversation about her work as a psychologist, about being mom, about this book. Eight years old, nine years old. I've known Jeremy a very, very, very long time. He has chosen a book, Cocktail Time by PG Wodehouse I've never read Wodehouse before. I'm really looking forward to reading this book. Supposed to be hilarious. Jeremy says he loves Wodehouse. I'm a little bit embarrassed. I've never read Wodehouse. This is my chance to rectify that. So come back for that conversation with Jeremy. Lana: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Doug Cutchins: Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about Posse. When you meet somebody who doesn't know what Posse is, what the Posse Foundation is, what do you tell them? Lana: Yeah, so I describe it as it's really program where... 10 people are selected from a really rigorous process of, looking for leadership skills in high school and things that we may have been involved in. And ultimately, these 10 people that selected come together and become a Posse, which is a support system for each other. Going into college, which we know can be such a stressful ⁓ process, ⁓ especially if it's far away from home, it was for our Posse. ⁓ Moving from like the DC area to ⁓ Iowa the middle of Doug Cutchins: about our Posse and a host of other things. So enjoy this conversation with Dr. Doctor. I'm so proud of her. Dr. Lana Mahgoub If you are not yet following Doug Reads with Friends on social media, please make sure you do so. I am on Facebook. I am on TikTok. I am on Instagram. Look how young and cool and hip I am to be able to push all of this. I post clips of upcoming shows and starting to try to create a little bit of community there for people to talk about shows and you can also receive notifications and reminders. when new episodes are out. Music for Doug Reads with Friends ⁓ is provided by my Eiren Caffall Thank you very much, Eiren Eiren is a terrific, terrific musician and author in her own right, and has provided this music us that you're hearing right now. So please ⁓ say thank you to her checking out her music ⁓ on Spotify. Lana: cornfields. so every week we'd meet and we would have meetings with you ⁓ and be mentored have support network ⁓ built in where we just process through any challenges that came up and make sure that we stay in college and reach the goals that ⁓ we all intended to Doug Cutchins: did it impact you being a Posse scholar in college? What was that like in college having a Posse there with you? I'll see you in when we're back here to talk with Jeremy. In the meantime, thank you for being my friend and I'll talk to you soon. Lana: Yeah, it was huge. came into college with nine other best friends, you know, which is not an experience that very many people ⁓ get have. And, the other thing is we spent so much time even prior to going to college, getting to know each other and doing this deeper work where ⁓ we're really vulnerable with another. And I think for me personally, that's something that ⁓ changed quite a bit I learned to open up about deeper things that were going on in my life with people and then have that support network going into college. So ⁓ it was great. Doug Cutchins: how does having been a Posse scholar continue to impact you now? Lana: we learned much, think, throughout the process as we're Posse scholars, where we step into positions of leadership, which ⁓ everyone in Posse has done, ⁓ even at ⁓ And so just helps equip you with the confidence to continue to carry on in these leadership roles ⁓ even afterwards. what I love about our Posse, as you know, is we stick together. We still talk. We're still friends. So it's a lifelong, friendship. Doug Cutchins: Yeah, it's the best. for me as an incredibly, incredibly lucky mentor, I mean, I our Posse was lucky in a lot of different ways. I think the 10 of you really clicked well, the 10 of you all decided to trust me, right? I mean, I think one of the things to know about Posse is that it selects students from urban public high schools who would be otherwise overlooked by the traditional college admissions process. Those are phrases straight out of the Posse playbook. And here I am, a middle-aged white guy balding in khakis in the middle of Iowa, trying to connect with and learn from and a mentor to... 10 absolutely phenomenal young people who of have a lot in common with, you immediately. But we clicked really, really well, all of us. And ⁓ having been a Posse is the best thing I've ever done professionally and changed so much of my life ⁓ of how I view work, how I relate to other people, things that I care about. And then has me now ⁓ still today, as you ⁓ we're still very close, We talk every ⁓ Lana: we did. Doug Cutchins: four to six months, we all get on a group Zoom call together and now there are Posse babies, there are Posse spouses, there are, right, all of you are in your early 30s and launching into careers. for your what is it like being married to a Posse scholar or marrying into Posse family, especially one as tight as our Posse has been? Lana: a lot of folks from the Posse able to make it to our wedding, fortunately. And I think he was a little bit nervous about like, how am going to fit in? Like, are they going to like me? And I think he fit right Even afterwards, people from the Posse were coming and saying, yeah, we like him. ⁓ And so, yeah, yeah, ⁓ he's of the family. Doug Cutchins: Good. Very important. That's great. So you went from Grinnell straight into graduate school. I introduced you as Dr. Lana a little bit ago. us about ⁓ doctoral program and what you're doing now. Lana: You So I stayed in the Midwest. I went from Iowa to Wisconsin to Nebraska. I did my ⁓ doctorate in University of in a school psychology program. And ⁓ I ⁓ guess ⁓ of since high I've always wanted to be a psychologist. So I just, kept going on my path. But was really good. I had a lot of great experiences in Wisconsin. kind of a little Posse within my cohort, my small cohort in grad school that helps support me through the rest of the ⁓ time because it's a long program, being in grad school. ⁓ It a very long time. from there, yeah, did my in Nebraska. And now finally back in my state of Virginia, ⁓ practicing as a psychologist. Doug Cutchins: So school psychology, what is the difference a PhD in school psychology versus other kinds of psychology? Lana: So, you coming from a school psychology program, really the difference is that you're focused in pediatric population and, have the skills and ability to also learn how to develop like IEP programming for kiddos, understanding accommodations and interventions that are really needed for kids with ⁓ different needs. So that's a of the background that I come in with. Ultimately, there are a lot of folks actually from my graduate program in school psychology that didn't end up working in schools. So, you know, many of us actually went on to work in children's hospitals or outpatient settings but we still you know all have that pediatric focus. Doug Cutchins: And do I recall correctly that you have recently taken the very brave step of hanging out your own shingle and working for yourself independently? Lana: I did, I did. I left a children's hospital that I loved and worked for for five years. But yeah, I started my own thing recently. I have a private practice now. Doug Cutchins: And so, what, how does that work? Who are you, who your clients are the of things that you offer to people? Let's do a little advertisement for you. Lana: Yeah. I still have very much the pediatric focus. I've extended kind of my age range a little bit to work with ⁓ college students just because sometimes they can be pretty similar to, ⁓ working the teens as well, but navigating these new life transitions and growing independence, ⁓ being away from ⁓ So ⁓ I really a range of different presentations. I could be treating anxiety disorders, depression, and mood disorders. ⁓ do a lot of actual parent training, so kiddos that maybe have disruptive behaviors or getting in trouble a lot and have big emotions that are hard to control. I do spend a lot of time, especially if they're really young kids, working with the parent on learning some evidence-based ways to really manage those behaviors better and build a really strong relationship with their kid. those are some of the things that I do. ⁓ had a lot of experience with psychological testing, so families that are needing some clarity around, you know, what may be going on with their child and how to best support them. I've been able to do to and in the process of actually starting up some therapy groups as well. So ⁓ being in a group setting with other kids that are all going through anxiety or all have ⁓ emotions and you know trouble with navigating their feelings can be really supportive. Doug Cutchins: How has the shift to online counseling impacted you, if at all? I mean, you must have been in grad school, just out of grad school when COVID hit. So are you doing ⁓ type of thing on a webcam and headset a lot, or are you really in person most of the Lana: Yeah. Yeah, so currently with my private practice, is solely virtual. I do have plans to go back to doing some in-person work. But when I was at the hospital all that time, I actually saw a pretty even mix of people that really wanted solely virtual care, just because of the convenience it offers, being able to meet from their car, from home, and their comfort, their own home. and people that really wanted to come in person. And so I think what's interesting is actually there's a lot of research that suggests like virtual services can be just as effective as in-person care. comes down to a lot of just kind of comfort, comfortability of like what a patient may be wanting though. Doug Cutchins: So tie the first two parts of this conversation together a little bit. Posse and your degree in psychology. Because I noticed even when you were talking about the Posse, ⁓ I like there were some ⁓ terminology some ideas. How does your degree in psychology ⁓ impact you think about or talk about our Posse or how you think of and talk about being a Posse scholar? Lana: you know, in psychology, we think a lot about social relationships with one another, how they develop, the impact that has even on our mental health to have support systems in place. So I can definitely see that connection where that was something that was built in and created for us naturally within the Posse. And it's protective because I think one of the missions with Posse as well is we want to reduce dropout. We see a lot of times people who independently go out on their own to they don't have a support network, they struggle with making friends, maybe they're really anxious about it, and then they drop out. They don't get to achieve those goals that they set out to achieve. And so I think it's protective in a lot of ways, even for our mental health to have a system like this. Doug Cutchins: How being a mom? mean, you're an expert. You're a doctor ⁓ in of How does that impact you how you about being a mom or how you interact with your daughter? Lana: It's so interesting because done this work with families for so long and live experiences of supporting them through supporting their kids, but then you have your own kid. It's interesting how some things really apply and they work really well and then your kid throws you for a loop. They're like, no, I'm not doing that. I feel like you learn a lot along the process about how to adjust. also, part of it, I think, in therapy that I do with families, where I tell parents, every child is unique. It's not a one-size-fits-all model where I'm gonna tell you to do just this and that's gonna work perfectly. Because now I even know, even from my own experience of working with my daughter, we've gotta adjust a lot to her to feel more regulated sometimes. Doug Cutchins: theory of how you get a kid to calm down and go to sleep or brush their teeth or eat their vegetables ⁓ the practicality of doing it in the moment of a mom, I imagine can sometimes be two very different things. ⁓ Lana: yes, I'm not ashamed to say it, my kid right now is going through a sleep regression. We're still working through it, and ⁓ it's not easy fix. Doug Cutchins: not that you should be ashamed of all. mean, in anything, I think that it might be really helpful for your clients to know like, yeah, this is really hard. And even when you've got a PhD in this area, ⁓ when you're an expert in this area, ⁓ still really hard and sleep regressions happen. And so ⁓ think that ⁓ makes you more human, I would guess to your clients. One other thing that I wanted to talk with you about, especially in the context of this podcast and reading, is that you're also an author. And I am very proud that I own a copy of your book, perhaps the first copy of your book here in the Middle East. But tell us a little bit about your book and the process of writing it. Lana: I a book called ⁓ How Fought Her Scary Thoughts. ⁓ And really a therapeutic children's book. I came up with the idea ⁓ years It's always something I wanted to do, to author that can support and just reach a wider audience. I wrote it pandemic times, But I was really thinking about the impact of the pandemic on children's mental health and all the influence right, of need referrals that were coming in for us for children that were just struggling so much to connect and to cope and even a readjust back to school after things had reopened. of the themes, I try to kind of put some nuggets of information in there for families around like what anxiety can look like for kids, including maybe some less obvious things like kids can maybe snap back and seem more oppositional in these moments where they're really overwhelmed. But it's not, that they're a bad kid in any way. Doug Cutchins: Thank you Lana: It's just that, we want to look at this lens of ⁓ is it that they're needing in that moment? And maybe there's something deeper like anxious feelings that are ⁓ that for them. But it, it's really kind of based on CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy approaches where you think about taking some baby towards those feared situations that maybe you're avoiding. ⁓ And so Sarah in the story that. She takes some baby steps towards doing things that she was fearful about eventually is able to, you Doug Cutchins: . Thank you. ⁓ Lana: adapt back to school and go out with her friends again. it tries to really just destigmatize this idea of it's okay to seek out mental health services. ⁓ I know for me that's a big thing where a lot of folks, even in my own family to be honest, ⁓ still struggle reaching out for help, asking for help. So I really tried to create this as a resource of you can do that and things are gonna be okay. Doug Cutchins: you What do you think made the difference for you in that way as somebody from the Sudanese community who very much obviously embraces mental health therapy works to de-stigmatize it works to draw people into this very helpful practice what What do you think made the difference for you in feeling so good about that? Lana: I think I may have shared with you before, but one of the reasons why I wanted to become a psychologist is I had this amazing opportunity my senior year in high school to shadow a school psychologist. ⁓ just the impact that she had on all these children's lives at the school, ⁓ seeing that were working, that were helping kids get better, also helped me put together the pieces of like, hey, for people that I even know in my immediate family, ⁓ this is that could be really useful. And I'd love to be a person who can ⁓ create that of impact in the world too. Doug Cutchins: do you love about being a therapist? you up and gets you going to work every day, gets you excited, gets you going? Lana: love my job, I love all aspects of my job. Sometimes it can be really challenging, but ⁓ think for me, the change, seeing the positive change, and being able to graduate families and kids from care ⁓ really the most exciting part, because I do tell all my families from the get-go, my goal is not to hold onto you forever. There is a lot of research and a lot of thought the interventions that we're doing together, and the coping strategies that we're developing, and the practice, ⁓ even in sessions that we do every time that we meet. And so my goal is to help you fly free and like use those tools independently in the future and be able to graduate from care And so I love having like celebrations at the end, actually with all my kids where they meet their therapy goals, they're feeling much better, they're seeing difference in their lives. And then we celebrate that in a really fun way, whether it be singing karaoke sometimes, with some of my kids or blowing up balloons and, ⁓ just having treats. ⁓ So ⁓ we do in fun ways. Doug Cutchins: That's wonderful. What does progression look like ⁓ a therapist? Do have future goals that you want to meet or future things that you want to do or things that you want to learn? ⁓ Where you see yourself in ⁓ 20 or 30 years and continuing to be challenged in this work? Lana: think I am who is addicted to work. It's for me to ⁓ think retiring at some point because I do love the work I do and I know I want to continue it for a while. ⁓ So I'll always have a foot in this work. I'll probably continue to see clients for quite some time. But something I did a lot of as well ⁓ in the several years has been mentorship and supervision of growing the next generation of clinicians. ⁓ And so think moving forward even in my own practice, I'm hoping for... plans of expansion in the future being able to pass down that knowledge and information to grow the next generation of clinicians. Doug Cutchins: Does that mean bringing other people on board into your practice? Lana: potentially. Doug Cutchins: Yeah, that's pretty exciting. talk a little bit about you ⁓ a reader. What role does reading generally play in your life? Lana: I've always been a lifelong reader. since a young age, I can actually think back to times where I would be sneaking around in family's apartment where I would get out of my room in the middle of the night and I'd have a book that I was really eager to finish. ⁓ I needed to know the ending. And I'd go into the most dimly lit hallway and squint my eyes in the dark to finish this book at 1 a.m. ⁓ So ⁓ that's kind of the kid that was up. And I think it's probably contributing to why. My eyesight is so horrible and I started wearing glasses at an early age because I was reading in the dark if I needed to. But stories have always just given me this wonderful escape. They've given me this place to go into fantasy worlds and learn about so many different things. And ⁓ always been really important to me. I think naturally it's also been a tool that I've used to just cope with frustrating situations if I felt ⁓ upset frustrated about something. Like my go-to was always like reading a book. And it's just kind of worked for me. Doug Cutchins: And today, I imagine a lot of your reading is of very short books with lots of pictures that you read again and again. One my other guests on a previous podcast said that that has a child of about the same age and said that that was his case. Is that ⁓ for as well now? Lana: You Yeah. yeah, ⁓ yeah. Goodnight Moon, read 20 times in a row. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: I believe Good Night Moon was name checked in that other conversation as well. Do you get to read for yourself now much? you've got your own business, you're a very busy in-demand psychologist, you're a mom, you've got lots of other things going on. Do you get to read much now? Do ⁓ you still have sneak around at night? Lana: You ⁓ ⁓ I've noticed a shift, especially since turning into a mother, where like really it's just most practical for me to do audiobooks right now. ⁓ love having a ⁓ book in my hands and I try to do that when I can. But when I don't have my daughter with me in the car, we're not listening to Elmo's music all the time. I'm usually listening to either a podcast or an audio book during commutes So that's kind of been what's most practical for me lately. Doug Cutchins: do you have specific books that ⁓ you look or a type of genre that you try to listen to? Lana: like thought-provoking books. author, Judy Picoult I don't know if I'm pronouncing her name right, but she's someone who's written a lot of thought-provoking books too, just around social issues in our I also like psych thrillers, murder mysteries, those types of books I'll really get into as well. Doug Cutchins: Has the audiobook been an easy one for you? I have to admit, I have a very hard time with audiobooks. I find myself drifting and not paying attention to them. Do they work really well for you though? Lana: For me they do. I feel like I am kind of an oddball and maybe I can listen to something. I can even listen to a book maybe in double speed and still retain and kind of get the gist of what's going on. I feel like things are just so fast paced with having a toddler and juggling all these things. That's kind of what I got right now and it works for me. Doug Cutchins: As long as you can make it work. That's great. Well, let's start talking a little bit about the book that you chose. So tell us what book you chose and why you chose it. Lana: Yeah. so I chose, the is called Culpability by Bruce Holsinger and I it Oprah Winfrey's book club list. So I tend to get a of my recommendations from there or from my own book club or sometimes even just podcasts that I listen to mention ⁓ certain books. Doug Cutchins: tell us little bit about your own summary of this book. So for people who have never heard of this book, I had never heard of this book before you chose it. ⁓ If you to give someone a one paragraph summary or a back cover blurb, what would you say about this book? Lana: So it's a story ⁓ about a lot of different things. There were actually many themes in this book, but essentially it's a story that begins with a family that's in a self-driving vehicle and they are on their way to their older teen son's lacrosse competition they get into a car accident right at the start of the book ⁓ they end up hitting car where two people get killed they're all injured from the car as well. ⁓ really book about kind of their recovery process and how they go through a very in-depth investigation as well. And it brings a lot of stories or kind of thoughts about ⁓ what is the of ⁓ AI and who culpable in situations like this. are a lot of family secrets and interesting family dynamics throughout the book too. So it just brings up a lot of thought-provoking questions. Doug Cutchins: Yeah, a lot of family secrets and a lot of family dynamics and as I was reading it, I kept thinking, I'm so glad I'm talking about this with a psychologist. Lana: You you Doug Cutchins: who can help me unpack all of the family secrets and all of the family dynamics. So for you as a psychologist, how did that impact your reading of this book? I mean, is it kind a professional liability perhaps that you're reading a book, but I have to imagine you're also kind of analyzing the characters in the book at the same time. Lana: Yeah, I can't lie. There was definitely a lot of analyzing. Doug Cutchins: that a good thing for you? Do you enjoy that? Lana: I think it just kind of may happen naturally. I think there's also this stereotype of sometimes like people ask you what you do for a living and you tell them you're a therapist and then they automatically concluded that you're analyzing them and that's in reality. That's not who I am. That's not what I do. I think in the context of this book though, just kind of reading in detail all of the themes and the family dynamics, a lot of it is also just very relatable. think families, know, some families may read this book and be like, hey, that kind of sounds like my family, right? So I liked the relatability of it and the way that he, the story together with all the different Doug Cutchins: that strikes home for me, absolutely. ⁓ I related, think, perhaps to an unfortunate degree to the narrator of the story, Noah, who is father of the family. I mean, we're both ⁓ around the age. We're both professional. His ⁓ wife kind of outstrips him professionally, which is something that I am... ⁓ gaining with Anjana as a ⁓ of kids. kids a little bit older than his, but I didn't always like which is kind of a problem when you're identifying with the character a lot. What did you like best this book? Lana: One thing that really stood out to me was interactions that Alice, who is this like middle child in the family, ends up having with an AI chatbot throughout the entire story. So reading those texts, yeah, reading those texts was so intriguing because in the back of my mind, I'm also thinking like, this is really what's happening with a lot of the kids that I even see right now, right? Or even kids that are not even in therapy. Doug Cutchins: Very interesting, right? Very interesting. Lana: but they're turning to these AI sources for therapy, essentially. And some of them, you know, claiming it to even be a friend, as Alice was throughout the story. She was saying, this is essentially my best friend and my go-to person, because I don't have anyone else in my life right now. I found that, you know, conversation really intriguing throughout. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: how much is AI impacting your work as a psychologist and as somebody working with kids? Are you using it at ⁓ all or are you mostly seeing it as question that you have to answer young people now? Lana: Personally, I'm always hesitant. so I'm not personally using it very much, but it's coming up, I think, where families more more, kids more and more are gonna do their research through ChatGPT or maybe Google some things that, ⁓ unfortunately, are very accurate. And I saw this actually maybe even prior to the rise of AI with social media ⁓ kids self-diagnosing on popular TikTok trends and things that they're seeing online. maybe drawing some of that relatability, but then not really understanding all the symptoms of what may be going on or the other context. ⁓ So it's up more and more in conversations. And I think as clinicians, potentially we're going to be moving more towards an intake and assessments with families, not asking just, you using AI? I think because it's here and everyone's really using it quite heavily at this point, it's going to be more of a question of how are you using AI? ⁓ Like what information did you glean when you had that, you know, maybe therapy, AI conversation Because some families may say they haven't had a history of therapy before, but ⁓ really they have with an AI chatbot. And I'm really curious to know, like, what did you gain from that? Doug Cutchins: that's really, really interesting. this the first novel that I've read where I felt like AI was a character in the novel, right? there was so much in this book. I mean, you about the car crash at very beginning of the and it's important to know that it was a self-driving vehicle that was being operated at that time. And that the mom is an expert in AI. Lana: Mm-hmm. Doug Cutchins: AI just keeps cropping up again and again to the point where I started wondering if there were elements of the book where AI was responsible for various things that happened, which it was not. ⁓ was this shadow in the background as an extra character to keep in mind. which I was glad for in many ways because it's a question that, as you said, we're all dealing with, we're all talking about, we're all thinking about, and to have a novel that really addresses it head on, I think, is really important right now. It's not going away, and it's only going to play a larger and larger role in the coming months and years. Lana: slowly. Doug Cutchins: Were themes in this book that particularly spoke to you or parts of the book ⁓ that really liked a lot? Lana: I think the title is very fitting, like culpability, who is responsible these situations and for this accident that happened in the beginning. But I think it raises a lot of these questions around ⁓ just the ethics and ⁓ morals and ⁓ is there someone responsible, you know, behind this AI that should take accountability at some point? Doug Cutchins: It's here. Lana: interesting because I finished reading the book like right as I was on a trip to San Francisco and may have heard of the like self-driving Waymo cars there and so saw so many of them driving around the streets and I've got to be honest with you it kind of freaked me out. I was thinking no way you could get me Doug Cutchins: ⁓ Have you been in one yet? Lana: ⁓ you can't even pay me to get in a car like that right now. yeah, then of course I'm researching like, wait, have there been accidents with Waymo? And ⁓ you I looked up some articles where like it's hit, you know, and killed these poor cats. I'm like, ⁓ you it's flawed. ⁓ But also right all this data and I don't know very much about all of the details, but is research suggesting like this is safer? This is maybe the direction we're going to be headed and where all the cars may look like this in 10 years. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: Yeah Lana: But for me, I think it's the sense of control. if got into the car, I would want to maybe sit in the driver's seat and know that I can ⁓ move ⁓ and it in a way if I needed to in case ⁓ there an accident. Doug Cutchins: So this is a quote that I have pulled from the book. It's on page 307. And I pulled this one particularly because it relates to this theme of AI and it also relates to being a parent and children. So this is the mom, the AI ethicist, who's an AI ethicist. And she's talking with a tech mogul who shows up and it plays a major role in the book as well. And she says, "But one can keep our kids safe forever. Not even you, Daniel. ⁓ No how much money we throw at the problem or how many guards we hire or how many tracking apps we put on our phones, no matter good your algorithm is, we can't protect from everything. We just can't. ⁓ I understand that better than I ever have before." Does that resonate with you a psychologist, as someone who's seeing kids and talking with parents about these things? Lana: It's you picked that quote. That's what really stood out to me in the book as well. ⁓ It to me as a parent too, really more than anything. like the actions that I currently take of really trying to protect my child sometimes from, ⁓ you trying to shield her from situations that I think may be unsafe. ⁓ But also, you know, this reality of like natural consequences that sometimes we can really grow from, ⁓ right? need to let my kid fall and scrape her knee and, you know, have that experience to maybe realize that something she did was kind of dangerous, ⁓ right? ⁓ But obviously not high risk. think if anything that really stood out to me as a parent too and how I move forward with my parenting. Doug Cutchins: Yeah, it's this parental desire to protect your kid from everything, but also know that failure is really important. how we have AI help our kids grow and succeed, which we absolutely want them to do, but also figure out who they are as people, as individuals, and not just part of this vast collective that is the AI of today. It's going to be really interesting to see how it develops and grows from here, that's for sure. Lana: know everything that comes to mind with me around that is how it's being used, you know, even by students in particular. So there's so many protections and, know, regulations are put now in schools around like you can't use AI to write your papers and yet, ⁓ you know, kids still doing it. ⁓ I know they're to me and telling me sometimes they're doing it ⁓ because also they're getting really smart and realizing like how they can maybe even get it to speak more like them and think like them ⁓ in ways. So ⁓ I for me, it's a question of like how it's impacting creativity, how it's like critical thinking skills. ⁓ Because unfortunately, we may get to point where people are just relying on it for everything that they're not really thinking about things themselves. Doug Cutchins: do use AI in you mentioned you don't use it in your psychology practice? Do you use it in other parts of your life at all? Lana: So just for like editing, like maybe editing an email, like, you know, getting an understanding of maybe like the tone of an email, I may use it in ways like Sometimes to like summarize something that I've already written up, know, to have like a summary page about it. I may use it in ways like that. But I will say like it's definitely infiltrating the field where there's like even AI note taking for therapy sessions, which, you know, in some ways can be really helpful because that's something that is very time consuming for clinicians. And I maybe with some editing potentially, if you look at what it spits out, that is something that could also save time. Doug Cutchins: for I've that my metric that I use is kind of the more I care about whatever task I'm doing, the less I use AI. So if it's a thing that's just, it's just a thing that have to get done, ⁓ then I will use AI. give an example ⁓ of there's an email that have to send out every year or that somebody has to send out on my behalf every year to a large number of alumni. the second time I sent it to them and I said, can you please forward this out to the alumni? said, this the exact text we sent out last year. Can you rewrite it? The information we were sending out was the exact same. It was just they didn't want to send out the same text. Well, I just put it into chat GPT and had it give me three different options ⁓ to say same thing, but in different ways. because that wasn't something that I cared particularly about. to me, I'm happy to use it in that kind of way. But if I'm writing something that's important, something that's personal, something that's just me, I'm far less likely to use it. If turn back to the book a little bit, is this a book ultimately that you recommend to people? Did you enjoy this book? Lana: I did. I really enjoyed this book. think everyone should read this book. Just to kind of further explore your own thoughts around where AI is going and the very real things that are happening in our society right now and how it impacts people. Doug Cutchins: Did it change how you think about AI at all or the ethics around AI? Because as you said, there's a lot in here about AI ethics and who is culpable and what is our responsibility towards AI. Lana: for me it up even more the question of Who is training the AI? And the in the book, I know has a quote somewhere where she talks about like, need to train the system ⁓ to good. No one's teaching it how to be good, which is of what she tries to do in her work. And so it up that question of like, whose definition of good, right? Are we using and who are the people behind this? ⁓ So I think kept bringing up more questions with that for me. Doug Cutchins: Thank you. For what I loved about this the most actually was the pacing of it. I am not a binge reader. I actually will oftentimes extend. ⁓ reading a book where I will force myself to put it down, where I will force myself to go slow because especially if I'm really enjoying the book, because I want to extend that opportunity to read it for the first time. I couldn't do that in this book. kept coming back to this book. I kept reading a hundred pages at a time, 150 pages at a time. And normally, ⁓ when I'm reading for a podcast, I will stop and take notes after every chapter. Well, first of all, these chapters are exceptionally short. These chapters are oftentimes three or four pages each, but the momentum, the questions, the plotting, were so many times where there was this sense of foreboding. found myself thinking about this book and thinking about, well, why did that happen? And they referred to this, but it's very clear that that's not what they meant. And why, you know, where did this come from? And it really propelled me along. I like the first half better than the second half. There's a whole kind of second accident that happens in the second half that I thought was maybe a little bit too much. I felt like that's a lot to happen in one summer in really short ⁓ to have these two major events ⁓ close to one another. ⁓ overall, I thought it was a fantastic book and I really, really enjoyed it a lot. Lana: Yeah. Doug Cutchins: thing that ⁓ try and do in each podcast towards end is to my guest and I both to think a little bit about where and how might meet next ⁓ based on this right? Some theme in the book. So have a little bit of fun with it. Are there any anything inspires you from this book or from the world of this book ⁓ that that you would about ⁓ impacts how we might meet Lana: The family in the book, I keep thinking about how they go on this nature retreat and they are doing all these outdoor activities. And I think I always think back to like our first experiences as a Posse, like going out in the woods a heat wave and camping I think it be really cool. We had such a great time, right. And there were also such crazy things that happened during that experience. I've always thought about maybe Doug Cutchins: And see you made it And thank you for watching. Lana: creating that adventure at some point and maybe doing another outdoor outing, maybe more glamping than camping, something air-conditioned may be fun. Doug Cutchins: Yeah, I was going to say there is no air conditioning in the large cabin that the 11 of us were in. there's a part of this book where air conditioning plays a role as well. Yeah, I think maybe I'll add to that that the AI twist that it will all be virtual or something like that. ⁓ But yeah, that was certainly a Lana: Yeah. Yes. We'll be in a VR headset. Doug Cutchins: It'll all be in the metaverse ⁓ but we'll get together ⁓ that Lana: Mm-hmm. Doug Cutchins: That was a formative experience for our Posse and a good callback from this book. What you going to read next? Any ideas or are we just sticking to board books now or something you're going to listen to? ⁓ Lana: you So I am in a book club and there was a book that was selected for this month. it a romance novel, which is not typically something that I would pick up, but that's what's on my ⁓ list next and we'll see how it goes. Doug Cutchins: That's great. Tell us a little bit about your reading group. How did you get into this book club? Lana: So friend of mine that I met ⁓ I first moved back to this area here, she was really into reading as well and decided to start a group. ⁓ so there's like a few of us that have gotten together. The book club's actually shifted quite a bit over time. It's paused at some points. We live in a very transient region with a lot of military people. And so ⁓ it's kind changed over time, but ⁓ we get once a month. Everyone rotates and picking something. When we can, we are discussing the book and most of the time, kind of like this, we're really just catching up and have another supportive network there where it's people that love books and love reading and in a good way. Doug Cutchins: Now you just have to turn it into a podcast. All right, well, Lana, this has been a delight. It has been wonderful catching up. Thank you for being my friend. Thanks for being a great member of our Posse. Thank you for being the first of the Posse, nine to go, which I get all of them on eventually. ⁓ But thanks much for being on the podcast. Lana: Thank Thank you so much for having me.