Latest / All The Right Movies / JFK (1991) | Ep. 56 - Part 1

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JFK (1991) | Ep. 56 - Part 1 · All The Right Movies

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All the old movies. You know, I sometimes think
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things have gone downhill since John Kennedy died, Senator.
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Well, don't get me started on that.
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Those Warren commissioned fellas were picking that shit out of
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pepper. Nobody's going to tell me that
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kid did the shooting job he did from that damn bookstore.
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I thought the FBI testified the rifle to see if it could be
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done. Sure, 3 experts and not one of
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them could do it. They're telling us that Oswald
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got off three shots with world class precision from a manual
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bolt Axon rifle in less than 6 seconds.
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And according to his Marine buddies, he's got Maggie's
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drawers. You know what that mean?
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Wasn't any good average man be lucky to get two shots off and
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I'll tell you the point shot would always be the best here.
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The third shots, perfect. Then they got that crazy bullet
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zigzagging all over the place. So he hits.
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Kennedy at Connelly. Seven times.
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One pristine bullet that dog don't hunt.
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Unsatisfied with the official explanation given about the
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assassination of John F Kennedy, New Orleans DEA Jim Garrison and
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his team get sucked into a well of circumstantial evidence,
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leading him to point the finger at everyone from the CIA to the
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mob. Oliver Stone's kaleidoscopic
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conspiracy thriller was considered the most dangerous
1:18
movie in America and suffered a huge backlash in the early 90s.
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Featuring a dizzy an array of incredible acting talent, it is
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now considered a high watermark in the great director's career.
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My name is Luke and a couple of patsies with me are Wesley.
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You're a mouse fighting the gorilla.
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Kennedy's as dead as that crab meat.
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The government's still breathing.
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You want to line up with a dead man?
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And Matt, I'm sorry, buddy, I thought I was shooting at that
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son of a bitch Kennedy. All the right movies are through
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the looking glass and headed to one of the most important
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moments of the 20th century. Hi everyone, welcome to All the
2:06
Right Movies, a mystery wrapped in a Riddle inside an enigma of
2:10
a podcast on classic and hit films.
2:11
True enough. That's us.
2:13
We're in over our heads this week as we tumble into a world
2:16
of conspiracy theories all centred around that dark day in
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Dallas N63. It is, of course, Oliver Stone's
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gargantuan JFK. It is.
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It is a long time coming. Yeah.
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A long time to watch it. Yes.
2:35
Just before we get into the mystery, we're here to tell you
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about hundreds of podcasts that we've created over the years,
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and you can listen to every single one by becoming an ATRM
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Our podcast archive is full to the brim with big laughs and
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even a few famous Westie theories thrown in for good
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measure. Oh.
2:54
Absolutely. Oh yeah, even I've forgotten
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about them. So check them out and let us
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You can listen to our complete classic podcast archive by
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there. Loads of great podcasts there.
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Definitely. And if that doesn't get you
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excited, you as crazy as your Mama.
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Here it is. Now we've started.
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Here we go. But if it does, then sign up at
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Apple Podcast, Spotify, and patreon.com/all the Right
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Movies. Yes, please do guys have a look,
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see what you think? Yes.
3:37
Please. But back to the big enchilada,
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JFK. Matthew been gagging to cover
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this film for some time. Yes, a halfway is that. 25
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years, I think 5. Years.
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That sounds about right. Yeah.
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I mean, first of all, kudos to you, Luke.
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I'm sure Westie agrees, but I'm always in awe of the work that
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you and John put into the scripts for this.
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And I'm sure there was a lot to go through for this one.
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So kudos to you. I appreciate apologies.
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So yes, thanks that you have me. That's easy for us to not my
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lead, but a lot easier than it should be.
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Yeah. Thanks for that.
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Yeah. What a spider's web this was.
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It takes three to tango, though. Yeah, but no, you're absolutely
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right. This one for me is one.
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Since I started doing this, this has probably been in like the
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top five films I've wanted to cover because this really is
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something else. And when I first watched it, I
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felt like I had to pick myself up off the floor afterwards.
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It was such an experience. I wanted and I wanted to dive in
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straight again to watch it all over again.
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And I think it has to be said, get it out wherewith It doesn't
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matter if you don't believe anything that Stone puts forward
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in this film. In fact, I'd recommend that you
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don't believe everything here. Big disclaimer, lovely.
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Yeah, big disclaimer. I mean, let's face it, at least
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about 70% of this is misrepresented, to put it
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lightly. But The thing is, it doesn't
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matter because this film is about obsession.
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It's about Stones obsession with this.
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It's about Garrison's obsession with this, and you end up
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obsessed with it by the end. By the end, it's like you're
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tearing your hair out going why can't the sea?
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Why can't the sea? This is such bullshit.
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It's only something result and even if you've got a problem
5:13
with the history, which is totally fair enough.
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Problem with the history. William Wallace could turn up at
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the end that it would make fucking sense.
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Historical accuracy all the way. It probably is the only one that
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beats Braveheart for that isn't. It.
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Yeah, definitely. But The thing is, you've just
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got to admire the she cinematic craft of this film.
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Like how this film exists in the form that it does, I have no
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idea, but I'm just so glad that it does.
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Yeah, absolutely. Westie about your thoughts.
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I'll just write on Matt's coattails there, to be perfectly
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fair. I mean, he said everything that
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we need to see in the introduction.
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Do it. I mean, it's a hell of an
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achievement. It's an incredible film.
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There's so much in here. I know it's 3 1/2 hours, but the
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still feels like it's overflown even in that runtime.
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It just zips by and it's just this really highly choreographed
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Rubik's Cube of American history is kind of the only way I can
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think about it. But it's just put all put into
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place. And then it shows you the
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Rubik's Cube finished at the end, but then you still doubt it
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and it just mixes itself up again and then just goes
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completely awry enough to stop and building it.
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It's not one that I've seen a lot, but it's one I really,
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really appreciate. Probably more from the technical
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side, as we've said, because you kind of watch this and walk away
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known absolutely every fact. I mean, I think this is more
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about, you know, what was said on the last crew said episode.
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This is search for truth or it's a search for fact.
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And I think this is a lot of truth, but being put together
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next to facts that don't necessarily work, but a lot of
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truths that have been put together.
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So it's for you to 1 picket and I think it's very much Oliver
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Stone's film and we will say that all the way through.
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This is him, very heavy-handed, very punching me in the face for
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3 1/2 hours, Very. Much.
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It's it's just unflinching. It's a steamroller of a film.
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It's like being in Vietnam with him.
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You can imagine what he was like.
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It's just an absolute onslaught of his beliefs, and it's slammed
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in here. And the other thing that's just
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incredible about this film is the ensemble cast.
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I mean, it's like the Longest Day.
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It's like bridge too far, and that's what we get to this film.
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It's absolutely wonderful. If you're a fan of cinema,
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you're a fan of JFK. So let's start untangling this
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ball of lies. Yeah, I mean, this pure, like
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this is movie candy for me. This a conspiracy thriller based
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on a pivotal period in American history in the mold of the
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greats like All the President's Men.
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If anyone says that sentence to me, I'm just all in leaving my
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general reservations about runtime at the door.
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The only time. I've always been a fan of Oliver
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Stone's work, and this is surely his most ambitious.
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Yeah. Tackling a highly emotive period
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using a dizzy and rear footage, including one of the most
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talented at Summer Cass ever assembled.
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Like you said, Westie. And like you said, Martin plays
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fast and loose with the facts. And you know, not much of the
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film is based in truth. It's more based on lie than
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truth. But it's one of the most
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exciting 3 hours you can spend watching any film.
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Yeah. Love It JFK was directed by
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Oliver Stone Co, written by Stone and Zachary Skylar and Co,
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produced by Stone and a Kit manhole for Regency Enterprises,
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distributed by Warner Brothers to theaters on the 20th of
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December 1991. Largely filmed on location in
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New Orleans, Dallas and Washington, DC.
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It stars Kevin Costner in the lead as Jim Garrison, and he's
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supported by the cast of all casts, including Tommy Lee
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Jones, Gary Oldman, Joe Pesci, Sissy Spacek, Lori Metcalf,
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Michael Rooker, John Candy, Walter Matthau, Jack Lemmon,
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Kevin Bacon and many, many, many more.
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Outrageous anyone who isn't in this.
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Unbelievable. Just us.
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OK, people, let's head on over to Dallas, where black is white
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and white is black. It's JFK.
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The beginning. In the beginning of JFK, we're
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introduced to our main characters and the seed is set
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for the greatest conspiracy of them all.
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But first up, we're treated to a stir and montage of factual
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events leading to the fateful events of that day in Dallas.
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And what a start it is. It's fantastic.
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So filament itself isn't. It oh, it's amazing.
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It's like a documentary. Yeah.
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I find a disconcert and I'm just going to start straight away by
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saying if you Google JFK the film, it says thriller slash
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documentary on Google. It's not a documentary.
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Definitely not a documentary. Oh, Google's wrong.
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Yeah. But this film opens like a
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documentary, the epic sweep of John Williams's military March
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that howls through the troubled recent history of America.
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Immediately given a sense of responsibility of the film and a
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sense of honour in the fallen, I think it's a really smart move
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from stone. He presents all the information
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about civil rights, the Cold War, the beer of pigs in Vietnam
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as factual through the use of archival footage.
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You know this all checks out. And to give it additional
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legitimacy, he's even drafted in Martin Sheen.
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Martin Sheen. He played Kennedy once.
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Yes. So that voice.
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Just provides such a sense of gravitas.
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This is really serious stuff and it's factual and that's an
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important footing to start on, I think, because if this is true,
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then everything else that we're going to be presented with the
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next three hours will follow suit.
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Yes, it must be. Fun to be, Maybe not.
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But this is also so on set now it's conspiracy theory in place
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fast and loose with the fact straight away with the
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introduction of the character of Rose Jeremy being thrown out of
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the car. The real Jeremy had a history of
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drug abuse and mental illness who was found passed out by the
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side of the road in Louisiana on the 20th of November 1963.
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And Jeremy made a claim of a plot to kill the president and
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later claimed she was pushed out of a car by Jack Ruby and Lee
10:48
Harvey Oswald. However, there's no evidence
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that the two knew each other and she was found dead on a Hwy. 2
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years later, the victim of a hit and run, but conspiracy thieves
10:56
have since clouded her death with suspicion.
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Right. We're going to hear that a lot,
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and of course we are. We're going to hear a.
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Hell of a lot of that. So it's a double setup, hitting
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us with the facts, then suck a puncher in us with this
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fabrication. A master storyteller, a master
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manipulator, depending on your point of view.
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Yeah. And he then segues into the 22nd
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of November 63, where he combines archival footage with
11:18
his reconstruction. Black and white with colour
11:20
images, all combined into disoriented, reflective of the
11:23
whole case. What's real, what's fake?
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It's drama right from the word go.
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Facts are an afterthought. But as an opening to a dramatic
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film, it's pretty much unrivaled.
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Yeah, so from there we go straight to the news of the
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president's been shot. We get the introduction of
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Garrison sitting in his office, that lovely photo of his wife
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behind him, beautifully late grade.
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I love the frame. And if that is really nice and
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he's like, Oh no, it's probably the worst delivery from Cosner.
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It's like, get that out of there, let's move on.
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Let's. Take that again.
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Yeah, it's just one more time. I mean, you set that up.
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Lovely. Just one more.
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But it's it's really good. Stands up.
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Napoleon's got ATV set. I was like, how historically
12:03
inaccurate is this? I like Napoleon didn't have ATV
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set. I'm just joking.
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That's the bar, straight to the character there.
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You've got that TV voice over, over the top of it, setting the
12:15
tone. We know where we are.
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And then we're in that bar and there's that slow pushing.
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The camera just starts moving. I'll say this a lot, and it's
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that slow put. It might be the start.
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Vertigo, you know, and the restaurant, it's just, yeah,
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yeah, it's just right. It's Hitchcock, but it's cut
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like a music video. It's just absolutely insane.
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The back and forth. The camera is moving towards the
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television, it's moving towards Garrison.
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It's just got this incredible pace to it.
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It's incredible emotion to it. And he's like, come on, Jack,
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pull through. There's still chance.
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God damn it. It's like he's just immediately
12:43
there. There's no like slow build up.
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It's just high watermark straight away and it just rides
12:48
that all the way through the film and you just get where you
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are with Stone and his view of what's happened.
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Because we get the newscaster cry and we get people upset.
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We get them on the news reels and everybody's upset about the
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news. So we know where we are.
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And the great thing about this is Stone starts the conflict of
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opinion straight away because we'll find out about his death.
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We'll have somebody on this side of the bar, we'll have Garrison
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who was gutted about it, and then we'll have somebody else
13:10
just jumping straight up and applauding the guy for shooting
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them. So we've got this conflict of
13:14
opinion straight away where people stand on Kennedy and we
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know that it's black and white. And I think it's just a
13:19
fantastic sequence and really beautifully done.
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Emily sits back and just says, I'm ashamed of being an American
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today. You know where you are and you
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know what's the one's trying to say.
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I think it's just an incredible, incredible start of the film and
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really, really sets the tone. And more importantly, it sets
13:31
the pace. Technically it's really
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brilliant. Yeah, packed with information as
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well. Yeah.
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Well, I'm going to talk about the first person who gets
13:38
questioned, David Ferrie, because yes, there's character.
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It makes me because Stone takes some liberties with the truth
13:45
along the way. But when it comes to Ferry,
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should be torn. His looks down.
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She doesn't look ridiculous. No, no, no, no, not the
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slightest. They can look more ridiculous.
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11. Yeah, exactly.
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And you know, when you hear stories about actors in certain
13:59
films that they'll hide themselves away from the rest of
14:01
the cast for shock value, like Tom Noonan and Manhunt there.
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I wish Pesci had done that here. Can you imagine if that's Costin
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has seen him for the first time in that week?
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And those eyebrows, that meanness to Gabazon, but not
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forget you at all, David. But I think Ferry, he's just the
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worst possible person to have involved in a conspiracy because
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he just completely crumbles under the slightest of
14:24
questions. Here he is the most nervous
14:26
smoker I've ever seen in me life.
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None of his story makes any kind of sense, particularly the goose
14:31
hunting you back me geese in this trip I believe the boys got
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a couple boys told us they didn't get any.
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She said you. Can see he's drowning, he's
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completely drowned. And then when Garrison catches
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him out that that he's been told I had no weapons in the car
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anyway, just that unbelievably awkward pause where he's tapping
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the cigarette out. Yes, I remember now.
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I got confused. We didn't have any.
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It's just the worst interrogation I've ever seen.
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And it is, you know, for if I'm not big enough.
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So it is quite a comical scene, especially in the end.
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I find you, sorry, simply not believable.
15:01
Really. What part?
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Like. It's ridiculous, yeah.
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It starts off bad when he says you're a hell of a pilot.
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Yeah, really. Usually sweating already.
15:16
Really. Yeah, yeah.
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Hello. Pesci is fantastic.
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There were three other actors approached to play.
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David Ferrie was James Woods, Willem Dufour and John
15:24
Malkovich, who all turned it down.
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Right. Yeah, I think maybe Dufour and
15:29
Malkovich maybe. Could have played Oswald.
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Maybe that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Jimmy Woods been out of control. Him in that week, I can't see
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it. I don't.
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Think that would have happened to be honest.
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So we're very released that seemingly brings an end of the
15:46
investigation before it even starts.
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Yeah. We cut to three years later and
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an innocuous conversation between Garrison and send it
15:55
along on a plane which sends everything spiraling out of
15:57
control. Matter.
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It is over to you for this one. Yeah, you know you've got a
16:02
stacked cast when you can get Hollywood legend Walter Matt
16:05
away in for one scene. In one scene only.
16:08
Unbelievable. And have Jack Lemmon and don't
16:10
put them in the same scene. Exactly, It's the only film that
16:12
don't make. I think it's the only film
16:14
that's done that, which is amazing.
16:16
But that tells you how key the casting is because there's so
16:18
many pieces of information that someone wants you to recognize
16:22
this is important. And he does this by making sure
16:25
everyone who says something important is memorable.
16:27
And This is why users might only doesn't just use some job and
16:30
actor that he could have done because he wants to sort lay in
16:33
the seeds of everything going forward.
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This all comes down to Vietnam. They've bitten off more that can
16:38
do Lyndon Johnson can't be trusted.
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I love his description of being a poor cat, and we need to see
16:43
the moment where something sparks in Garrison's mind that
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the official story isn't correct.
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And that's what Send It Along does here.
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How unlikely the book depositary is as a place for the killing.
16:53
How Oswald is anything but a crack shot, which he's supposed
16:55
to be to be able to pull this off.
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How difficult the shot is. And most importantly of all,
16:59
it's the first mention of the magic bullet theory and how
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zigzags everywhere. And I love Mad House dialogue
17:05
here. 1 pristine bullet. That dog don't hunt.
17:08
That's wonderful outline. So great on the face.
17:11
Would you think? Oh great, Mad House turned up?
17:13
But actually, this kick starts the whole thing and establishes
17:16
how shaky that official report is in just this little 2 minute
17:19
scene. Yeah, conversation by chance
17:21
starts the whole thing off. Yeah.
17:23
And after this, Garrison, his head is filled with fanciful
17:26
thoughts of conspiracy, and he begins to ask questions.
17:29
And that's starting with Jack Martin, played by Jack Lemmon,
17:32
whom he meets at the racetrack. Yeah.
17:35
And this again, wonderful choice by Stone, who serves up probably
17:38
the most beloved double act in movie history, Matthew and
17:42
Lemon, and separates them. Yeah.
17:45
But I think this again shows how Stone positioned all of his
17:48
pieces to legitimize his theories.
17:50
Surely everyone thinks that Lemon is one of the most
17:52
trustworthy actors in movie history.
17:55
Yeah, whatever he's telling us must be true.
17:58
Yeah. And the scene picks up from a
17:59
scene at the start where Guy Bannister smacks Martin about
18:02
with his gun. He introduces the Cuban exiles
18:04
and David Furry, and the thing starts to snowball and snowball.
18:08
And this is such incredible visual storytelling from Stone.
18:11
And he does it all the way through the film overlay in a
18:13
flashback with Bannister Oswald and Claire Bertrand with Jack's
18:16
voice over. If this was shot without those
18:18
flashbacks, it just would have been too overwhelmingly dense to
18:21
even penetrate. Definitely.
18:23
I love that there's a a shot in this scene where an
18:26
overwhelmingly suspicious fella in a hat and suit is lurking in
18:30
the background just looking. Over.
18:32
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we don't know if he's
18:33
listening, and it's never referred to a game, but it just
18:36
reinforces the sense of paranoia the film has.
18:37
Yeah, definitely, expertly. And then it's a quick move to
18:41
meet up with Dean Andrews, the jive ass Turkey shade wearing,
18:45
sweating sleazeball. Dean Andrews was a slimy
18:49
accident chasing lawyer who claimed to have been contacted
18:52
by someone to represent Oswald when he was arrested, something
18:55
which he later retracted, obviously and.
18:57
Originally, Candy scene was going to be removed from the
19:00
final court, which he was devastated about.
19:02
But the scene was reinserted after Kosnik came to his defence
19:05
and Stone later wrote Candy a letter where you apologise for
19:07
even considering taking the scene out.
19:09
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it would have been
19:10
crazy, yeah, because Candy just lights the screen up in this
19:14
role. I can't say why it was at the
19:16
risk of being cut, because he really doesn't add anything to
19:19
the film apart from just a whole load of colour.
19:23
Yeah. Yeah, but a real sense of
19:24
danger, though. Yeah, yes, yeah, that close way
19:27
smoking. Yeah, Paranoid.
19:29
Paranoid. I mean, it's just his demeanor
19:32
alone which is striking, but his patterns of speech and his
19:35
dialogue are wonderful. Why dancing on my head?
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For man, we've been thick as more or less as past since high
19:41
school, really. I mean, like, both to my head,
19:44
you dig? He's great.
19:47
And there's an incredible match cut as he draws on his cigarette
19:50
and stone cuts to a flashback of him drawing on a cigarette with
19:53
Tay Bertrand. Yeah.
19:55
Technically wonderful and great writing and performances as
19:58
well. Yeah, and I think kind of an
20:00
unusual choice considering his reputation for comedic roles.
20:04
He was chosen by Stone because he looked just like Andrews.
20:06
He does looks a lot like him. Yeah, he does.
20:09
Yeah. Yeah.
20:09
And he is obviously the most comedic character in the film
20:12
apart from Pesci piece of. Course.
20:14
Yeah, eyebrows. Yeah, wonderful.
20:16
These eyebrows. Yeah, sweating was for read as
20:18
well from Candy, wasn't he was under like such He was so
20:20
nervous about being ensemble cast.
20:23
To stuff, yeah. And then we'll go from there to
20:25
the prison scene with O'Keefe, right?
20:27
I mean, has Kevin Bacon been better than this ever?
20:31
No, it doesn't touch how good he the swagger when he first turns
20:35
up and he just walks through that room and the way the lights
20:38
hitting him, he's in Great Neck. Obviously you're going to say
20:41
that he's absolutely fantastic. And his dialogue is just so
20:45
cutting and it's just electric. The way he delivers it like a
20:48
snake sudden itself on the road. It's just like it's got this
20:51
real kind of wisp to it and this confidence that he plays this
20:54
character with is amazing. And then we'll start going into
20:57
the flashbacks and he's meeting the clear through Ferry and he
21:00
just walks up and when he walks past, Oswald just offers him the
21:02
handshake and he said what the fuck he doing?
21:04
Fuck you, motherfucker. It's absolutely amazing just for
21:09
a fight straight away. I love that.
21:11
And I love the way he kind of goes into the story much.
21:13
We're bringing the Cubans into the story now.
21:15
So that's another string of the ball that somebody else who
21:17
could have been guilty for, you know, the whole assassination
21:20
attempts or opens another can of worms.
21:22
It's just amazing how he really kind of has Ferry here laying
21:26
out the whole plot as we know it in that flashback.
21:29
It's like that can't be real because it's everything that we
21:32
know about it. He's basically setting up the
21:34
whole plot. You have a trifecta of the gun,
21:37
you shoot through there. You have a Warner shot over
21:38
there. That's where you take the kill
21:39
shot and just thinking really just that you don't trust
21:44
O'Keefe because you're thinking, well, that's what he's telling
21:46
them, so how can he know that? He's just read that somewhere.
21:49
So then he's just kind of reiterating it back.
21:51
So you, again, you're on the back foot.
21:52
You don't trust anybody and especially not OK.
21:55
I think it's an incredible character.
21:56
I mean, the completely fictional character in the world didn't
22:00
exist at all. But I think the way that Stone
22:02
puts so much into the character to make him untrustworthy, but
22:06
still very believable, then he goes into his own personal
22:08
opinion about it, about Kennedy beat Nixon.
22:11
And then, you know, then he starts pulling the race card
22:15
out, which nobody's done yet. And it's like, is that a reason?
22:18
Is that a catalyst? Is that what this is all about?
22:20
And it just leaves it wide open. And that part in line.
22:23
You're not a bad looking there, Mr. Garrison.
22:25
Not bad looking it up. When I get out here I'll come
22:28
get pay your visit and you just your left hanging going.
22:31
This guys horrible awful but I want to see more of them.
22:34
Yeah, he's really electric. Yeah, real prison, real inmates.
22:38
It's got this authenticity to it, which just, it absolutely
22:41
rings of sweat. It's horrible, but amazingly
22:44
done. Just the authenticity is
22:46
fantastic for a completely fictional character that's
22:49
somewhere really believable that it works.
22:51
Yeah, it's a real angle of prison.
22:53
Yeah, like you said, real guards, real prisoners.
22:56
And Stone loved it as a location.
22:58
He said that he would love to shoot an entire film there.
23:01
Right. It's incredible and yeah, well,
23:03
you O'Keefe was a composite of a number of witnesses who claimed
23:07
to have seen Oswald mixing with Furry and Shore, one of which
23:10
was Peru Russo, one of the real Jim Garrison's witnesses.
23:13
Right. More on that guy later.
23:15
Yes. Yes.
23:16
So Garrison is starting to build his case, but so far he's got a
23:20
collection of shady characters, people who are afraid to talk,
23:22
and people who talk too much. What a combo.
23:25
Yep. The director.
23:32
Coming off the back of an incredibly successful 80s with
23:35
critical commercial praise and abundance, and a few Oscars to
23:38
boot, Oliver Stone arguably reached a creative peak with JP.
23:42
So our thoughts on his work here as director, and I mentioned
23:46
before that, you know, the use of flashbacks makes a lot, a lot
23:49
of things a lot clearer, but it's still a hell of a lot to
23:52
chew on. Yeah, yeah.
23:55
This many characters over this period of time, over this
23:58
runtime, with different theories and opinions and facts, and over
24:01
that entire lines. How on earth are we going to
24:03
make this all fit? But I think he does it in a few
24:05
specific ways. Firstly, the scenes are just
24:09
larger than life. It's not a whistle stop tour of
24:13
all the evidence available in the case.
24:15
Stone takes his sweet, sweet time about these big scenes,
24:18
most clocking in a 5 minutes plus.
24:21
So we're able to kind of relax into the information being
24:24
presented and can make visual attachments to the information
24:27
and the characters because the scenes themselves are just so
24:29
memorable. Then what he does is fill these
24:32
pivotal character roles who only really have one scene each with
24:36
some of the most memorable actors of the last 30 years.
24:40
Ed Azner, Mathau, Lemon, Bacon, Sutherland, the list goes on and
24:43
on. Yeah.
24:45
And because we've got an emotional connection with these
24:47
actors from previous roles, we're bringing all of that
24:49
baggage to the film to make these scenes resonate and make
24:52
them incredibly memorable. And Stone said that once Costner
24:56
was in place, Warren just didn't care about the rest of the cast,
24:59
he said. I wanted to get faces that were
25:01
recognisable and memorable in there because it's a complicated
25:04
movie and if you don't know who the name of the person is, you
25:07
get confused. So I had to make the people as
25:10
vivid as possible so that you would remember the storyline and
25:12
the clues. Yeah, that makes sense.
25:15
Yeah, Stone took inspiration by Caston of the epic war film The
25:19
Longest Day. Westie, the one that you've just
25:20
mentioned. Oh yeah, yeah, Yep.
25:22
He said it was realistic, but it had a lot of stars.
25:24
The support and cast provides a map of American psyche, familiar
25:27
comfortable faces that walk you through winding path in dark
25:30
woods. Great.
25:33
So because of the importance of the material, a lot of the cast
25:36
just show the support by waving their fees.
25:38
Amazing stuff. And then on top of that, you've
25:41
got the characters who fill the support cast in multiple scenes
25:44
that aren't that memorable. The likes of Michael Rucker,
25:47
Laurie Metcalf, Wayne Knight, great performers but generally
25:51
forgettable character actors. With all due respect.
25:54
Yes, of course. Yeah, yeah.
25:56
These took into the background, so the likes of Lemon really
25:58
stand out. And it's not just the director
26:01
of the scenes and the actors within, it's the location
26:03
shooting which embed in your mind's eye math.
26:05
I was on the plane. Lemon at the racetrack, Candy in
26:08
the restaurant, Bacon in Prison. X in Washington.
26:11
Even makes Pesci's wake larger than life.
26:13
So we make a emotional connection to it.
26:15
Yeah, it's an incredible kind of chess set, isn't it?
26:18
It's amazing, all these pieces all around.
26:21
And everything's got a kind of mean and then a way to move.
26:23
I think it's just an ingenious way of making one of the most
26:26
complex stories ever told pretty easy to follow.
26:29
Yeah. Wesley, your thoughts on Stone
26:31
as director here. I mean, it's, it's an incredible
26:34
master class in direction and storytelling, visual
26:37
storytelling, how to work with actors, how to work with crew
26:41
and especially how to work with another and get an editor in who
26:43
hasn't edited a feature film before.
26:45
And there's commercials and he's just went, I want your style all
26:50
over that. We can see, you know what?
26:52
Stone is going to give the nod on the final cut, but he just
26:54
wants people to inject something that's not been seen before in a
26:58
contemporary Hollywood film. You want something different.
27:01
You want something electric, like I've said before,
27:03
fast-paced in your face. It's probably one of the best
27:06
edited films I've seen. It's one of the best editor
27:08
films that I can think of. Wesley, I've literally written
27:11
those words down word for word in my note verbatim.
27:15
Yeah, lovely. Sorry.
27:19
That's because it's true though, isn't it?
27:21
That's just because it's true. I mean, it's just so engaging.
27:24
It's the pace of it and the fact that he seems to have shot
27:26
everything from every focal length he shot.
27:28
Everything is a wide, everything's a made,
27:30
everything's a close up. He's got all these choices, like
27:33
just the John Kennedy scene was spoken about.
27:35
I mean, I have them smoking and not that close up.
27:37
You know, he's got a mid of it, you know, he's got a wide of it.
27:40
You know for a fact he's covered everything.
27:41
He's got everything. You know, it's just all day.
27:43
He's got all of the pieces there and he's just putting it all
27:46
together. This is every tool in the
27:48
toolbox in 1991 to make a film. He's got the whole tool, it's
27:52
B&Q, he's got the whole toolbox. He says to Richardson, like,
27:56
what do we need? He's like, well, 35 mil film, Do
27:59
you need 16? Do you need 8?
28:00
Yep, right. Get them as well.
28:01
That's all fine. Do you want black and white?
28:03
You want colour? Get all that in there.
28:05
How many lights do you need? Hundreds, right?
28:07
Get them in there no problem. And it's just the way that he
28:10
constructs it. None of that is wasted is what
28:12
I'm saying. None of it seems pretentious.
28:14
It all seems incredibly necessary to tell the story the
28:17
way he wants to tell the story. I never watch this film and go,
28:20
oh, this is just overkill. This is too much.
28:23
It's thank God that's in black and white.
28:24
Thank God that's in color. Thank God that's on 16 mil.
28:27
Because now I can kind of differentiate like he's done
28:29
with the characters. He does that with the camera.
28:32
He does that with film stock. He does that with the pace of
28:34
the edits, what they're going to cut, do next, how they're going
28:36
to cut with how fast, how much is going to hold a shot.
28:39
There's not one scene in this whole film where it's just a
28:42
dialogue sequence just on a tripod with just over the
28:44
shoulders back and forth. That's it, right?
28:46
Dump, dump, dump, same focal length.
28:48
That's it. Don't hold the camera there.
28:50
Fantastic. Yeah, it's about the
28:51
performance. It's about the performance from
28:53
the Atlas, but also about the performance of the camera and
28:55
where that's going. It's always moving.
28:56
You're always engaged. You're always thinking about it.
28:59
And one of the things that he does here is how well he layers
29:02
to the film. It's just layer upon layer upon
29:04
layer. And there's flashbacks within
29:06
flashbacks, which is, again, really intelligent and really
29:09
clever. And I hadn't really seen much of
29:10
that opener now. And Stone said I wanted to do
29:12
the film on two or three levels. Sound and picture would take us
29:15
back and we go from 1 flashback to another, and then the
29:18
flashback would go inside another flashback.
29:20
I wanted multiple layers because reading the Warren Commission
29:23
report is like drowning. And he's absolutely right.
29:26
And that's what he's doing and fucking nailed it.
29:28
It's unbelievable. It's like Inception, isn't it?
29:31
It's. Unbelievable for Inception,
29:32
yeah, although Inception is probably more factual.
29:37
And more fact based. Yeah.
29:41
Oscar winning, edited by Joe Hudson and Pietro Scalia.
29:44
Yeah. Incredible stuff.
29:46
Unbelievable work. Yeah.
29:47
So there's one more note on the editing as well and how this was
29:49
done technically. Because using 35 mil, 16 mil and
29:52
eight mil, you kind of just cut all that together on the same
29:54
machine. You just didn't have Avid or you
29:56
didn't have their machines back in 91.
29:58
So they put everything onto videotape and then he'd cut to
30:02
the videotape and then they would match cut whatever he got
30:05
on the video to the actual footage, which is just
30:07
absolutely incredible. And considering they had about 3
30:11
months to edit. Just start hitting the buttons.
30:16
He's got all the shots, it doesn't really matter.
30:22
Matt, your thoughts on Stone as director?
30:24
Yeah, I mean, Can you imagine what Oliver Stone did on day one
30:26
of the shoot? Because I can't.
30:29
Where do you start with this? The sheer amount of information
30:33
and people and plot strands he's got to keep on top of and not
30:37
for one minute while he's lost control of this film.
30:40
The sheer amount of plates he's spinning in the air is mind
30:43
boggling and it's astonishing how well he lands everything.
30:46
And I think Stone is maybe being a bit forgotten about these days
30:49
in terms of his ability as a director, which I'll get into
30:52
when we talk about the film's legacy.
30:53
But this is undoubtedly his best film as a storyteller and he's
30:57
pulling together every single element of film making in
31:00
service of the story. As you just said, the use of
31:03
editing here is sincerely complicated.
31:05
The use of flashbacks is breathtaking.
31:07
I mean, obviously the film is in colour and then you have
31:09
flashbacks in colour, but then you have flashbacks in black and
31:12
white and then you have flashbacks which are black and
31:15
white but also meant it looked like stock footage from the time
31:17
and then you have actual stock footage mixed in with it.
31:21
It's like you're using the edit and just to peel back all the
31:24
layers of deception to finally see the truth underneath.
31:27
And it just leaves me dizzy because you don't know where you
31:30
are. You don't know what's true, you
31:31
don't know what to lie. And that's the point.
31:33
And then the way he also mixes up the chronology.
31:35
And then he will use flash forwards, like the flashback of
31:38
interviewing Lee Bowers, who was the guy who was working high up
31:41
with the view of the parking lot at the start.
31:43
And then you just get that brief image of him dead in a car with
31:47
no explanation until much later on when you get totally he dies
31:51
of a heart attack in his car. It's the same when Susie Laurie
31:55
Metcalf's character, she's outlining Oswald's background in
31:58
the restaurant. That's indicate with the photo
32:01
being put together of Oswald for Life magazine.
32:03
But again, incredible. Not explained to much further
32:05
down the line. I mean, all that could just fall
32:08
apart, but it doesn't. And after 3 1/2 hours, I get to
32:11
the end. I think.
32:11
Where did the time go? Because this is the fastest 3
32:14
1/2 hours you'll ever see. It moves like a rocket in stone.
32:18
He's just created this incredibly intricate maze that
32:21
anyone else tried to do it. It would collapse, but he
32:23
guides, he threw it and he leaves at the end.
32:25
It's gone. What do you think about all that
32:27
today? I mean, I'm pretty confident.
32:29
I'm out of breath. Yeah, into the.
32:31
It's like it's up to, you know. Yeah.
32:32
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there's all the pieces.
32:34
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, work it out.
32:39
Yeah, 3 1/2 hours. I mean those words and me do not
32:42
mix well. The dawn at all, No.
32:44
I mean I could watch 2 slasher films in that time at least, but
32:51
this is incredible. You should know the fucking
32:53
murderer is. So in 1988, Oliver Stone was at
33:01
the Latin American Film Festival in Havana.
33:04
He picked up an award. The publisher Jim Garrison's
33:07
book Ellen Rear was also at the festival and handed Stone a copy
33:10
of it. Stone read it while working on
33:12
Born on the 4th of July. Loved it.
33:14
He's not that the rights of the book for 1/4 of a million out of
33:16
his own pocket. And he did that to stop
33:19
speculation about projects that he was developed and he didn't
33:22
want anybody peering into this story.
33:25
And then Stone had an initial meeting with Garrison where he
33:27
put him through the ringer. Stone was impressed by his
33:30
integrity, but drew the following conclusions from his
33:32
meetings. Garrison made many mistakes.
33:35
He trusted a lot of weirdos and followed a lot of fake leads.
33:38
But he went out on a limb, way out.
33:41
Yeah, you know what I mean? He's not the only one, no.
33:45
And while he was prepping for The Doors, Stone spoke to warn
33:48
us about possibly doing a Howard Hughes biography on a biopic,
33:52
Which we all know Scorsese did later with The Aviator.
33:55
Fantastic. We haven't seen that.
33:57
But this hit a snag when they found out that Warren Beatty
33:59
owned the rights to the story. So Stone hit them with these JFK
34:02
pitch secondary. Oh, by the way, I've just got
34:06
this. Yeah, yeah.
34:10
Warners was the only studio that Stone went to with the idea.
34:13
He was certain that he could have gotten a better deal
34:15
elsewhere, but he didn't want a bidden war shedding light on the
34:17
project. Yeah.
34:18
Yeah, he said. I knew the material was
34:20
dangerous and I only wanted one entity to finance the whole
34:23
thing. He didn't want it leaked, did
34:24
he? Paranoia all the way through,
34:26
Yeah. Exactly, I love it.
34:27
Yeah, imitating life. However, one is what only
34:32
willing to simple $20 million for the production.
34:34
But Stone knew he needed more on account of the the size of the
34:37
screenplay. So he went to independent
34:39
producer On and Mil Chan, and he wanted a tentpole movie to
34:42
launch his new company, Regency Enterprises, and so he put up
34:46
the other $20 million Stone was looking for.
34:48
And a lot of that budget was spent on recreating the period
34:51
in real locations. The recreation of 1963 Dealey
34:54
Plaza was pricey, coming in at a cost of $4 million.
35:02
He's filming there for three weeks, which during which time
35:04
the police closed streets and rerouted traffic.
35:07
The murder of Oswald was shot in the same location where Ruby
35:10
shot Oswald. Actually.
35:11
You see it goes for the theatre where Oswald was arrested as
35:13
well. Stone gave the exterior of that
35:15
theatre a 1963 style remodeling as well.
35:19
Right, which kept them open, didn't it?
35:21
That's right, yeah. Yeah, the phone kind of kept
35:23
there, kept going after that. Amazing.
35:24
That's right. The film was largely shot on
35:27
location, but there were a few sets built.
35:29
One of the most extravagant was a replica of the Oval Office,
35:32
which was reconstructed based on archival footage.
35:35
And it's in the film for 8 seconds and cost $70,000.
35:39
And it's in black and white. Yes, man.
35:51
Money is no objective. Seconds.
35:52
Well. What do you do with that set
35:58
afterwards? 7070 thousand dollars, yeah.
36:01
Get rid of it. Yeah, get rid of.
36:03
It don't, don't. Just to use it for The West Wing
36:06
or something. They must have used it for
36:07
something, surely? Well, they've got Sheen they may
36:10
as well use it for. Like.
36:11
Yeah, they kept it for Nixon a few years later.
36:14
Yeah, yeah. Independence Day, maybe.
36:15
I wouldn't have thought that. And for the style of the film,
36:20
Stone took huge inspiration from the Costa Gravas political
36:23
thriller Z or Z, depending where you're from, he said.
36:26
You look at a crime, you accept the first version of it, the
36:29
official version, then you look at it again.
36:31
Yeah, just like Rashomon. Yes, yeah, that was another big
36:34
influence was not in. The yeah, yeah, yeah.
36:37
So it was. Mr. Smith goes to Washington for
36:39
the courtroom scenes. You can see that, yeah.
36:41
Absolutely, Yeah, Yeah. And it's not just because
36:44
they're a crazy fan, but I can also see the influence of
36:46
Blowout Yeah Self majorly influenced by the Sapruda film.
36:50
Yes, yeah, yeah. The paranoia, absolutely the.
36:53
Elements of the conversation in there as well, without doubt.
36:55
Yeah, yeah. Going to end this section on a
36:58
quote from the big man himself who said I think I was always
37:01
controversial, provocative. It's in my nature to want to
37:04
know the truth of a situation. And that's not to say that I'm
37:07
right, but I have to ask questions.
37:09
I never made a movie for money. Nice.
37:11
He's got his integrity, the. Cast.
37:19
Where to start with the cast as dazzling as this one?
37:22
We've talked about some of the memorable Cameron yours already.
37:25
We'll talk about more as we go. But here we're talking about the
37:28
characters that drive the narrative.
37:30
TLG is clear show and Gary Oldman as Lee Harvey Oswald are
37:33
coming up. But first, it's the big man.
37:35
You don't mess with Big Jim Garrison, Matt.
37:37
You certainly don't. I mean Costner, huge fan anyway,
37:40
he's one of me favourites in his performance.
37:42
He is so key to the whole film because he makes everything
37:46
believable. And Costner is representing
37:49
Oliver Stone here. And Stone makes some wild
37:51
accusations in this film. Lyndon Johnson was in on it, but
37:55
because they come out of the mouth of Costnet, it gives them
37:57
that sense of respectability because the thing you get from
38:00
Costin above everything else is the sense of integrity.
38:03
He's very much stuff throwback to the likes of Gary Cooper, Jim
38:07
Stewart, somebody which always stands up for what's right and
38:10
correct, even if it means going against the very government
38:13
itself. You know, this is rare from
38:15
Field of Dreams, This is Elliot Ness from The Untouchables.
38:17
And that's the touchstone for me in terms of the performance,
38:20
because it's easy to imagine Elliot Ness retiring from the
38:23
police and becoming this lawyer and leading this investigation.
38:27
And that's what Costin does so well.
38:28
And if you think who else could have done this, who else was the
38:31
big name at the time? You know, someone like Mel
38:33
Gibson, for example. But The thing is, Gibson, he'd
38:35
give Gaussen too much of an edge and he would make him seen
38:38
insane. But Costin just makes him seem
38:41
like a man driven to uncover the truth and driven to uncover the
38:44
most heinous conspiracy imaginables.
38:46
But because it's that cost of integrity, you believe him.
38:49
Yeah, you do. Very much.
38:51
American has apple pie isn't. He apple pie, the fly,
38:55
everything. You know, you think this one
38:57
would never tell a lie. He'd never believe a lie.
38:59
You know, I believe everything he says.
39:00
And The thing is, you're also looking at somebody who's got a
39:02
shoulder, this very long film and keep you on side, which he
39:06
completely does. And obviously we'll get to the
39:08
end eventually, but just that final monologue addressing the
39:12
jury, laying out the whole conspiracy, the size of that.
39:15
But it's no small ask for an actor, something the size of it
39:18
any nails. It's all it's incredibly smart
39:20
casting and I just don't think anyone else could have made it
39:22
work the way Costner does. Yeah, I think it's one of the
39:25
most natural fit and roles for any actor in any film ever.
39:29
Yeah. Costner, Mr. Wholesome You need
39:32
this kind of wholesome persona to navigate you through this
39:35
maze and to be believable. Take you by the hand.
39:38
It's going to be all right. It could have been very gung ho
39:40
as well, couldn't? It could be very much, you know,
39:42
wrap yourself in the flag. But I don't think there's a
39:45
blind love for his country. I think there's an absolute
39:47
affection for it, and that's totally different.
39:50
He's emotional about it. Yeah, Yeah, he is.
39:52
He's magnificent. This is probably him at his
39:54
zenith. It went downhill not long after
39:56
this, didn't it? Robin Hood for me, but it's just
39:58
close. Seven times at the cinema,
40:02
wasn't it? Try again mate.
40:06
Double that, Warner's pushed hard for Costner because of his
40:11
movie star bankability. After he signed on for the film,
40:14
he went on to clean up at the Oscars for Dances With Wolves,
40:16
obviously, which added an additional layer of movie
40:19
stardom at JFK. Really, really elevated it.
40:22
Yeah, loads of cashier. Costner was not the only person
40:24
in the frame for Garrison, of course.
40:26
We love to hear about it. Stolen off at the Part 2,
40:29
Harrison Ford and somebody that you just mentioned, Matt Mel
40:31
Gibson. Lovely Garrison Ford.
40:37
They both declined, Gibson and Stone sharing a particularly
40:41
flawed dinner meeting, apparently all right, but
40:44
Costner eventually took the role for 7 million in a cut of the
40:47
box office receipts. He was on Stone's radar after
40:50
his performance in Elliot Ness and The Untouchables.
40:53
Coincidentally, though, on that film he got the gig after it was
40:56
turned down by none other than Harrison Ford and Mel Gibson.
41:00
Great. To prepare for the role, Costner
41:03
met with fans of Gaussen's work, but also with people he
41:05
considered his enemies and Stone said.
41:07
I wanted Costner to get both sides to witness the hatred and
41:11
extremism that Jim engenders, and as an actor, to look into
41:14
the eyes of his enemies and know what he was up against back
41:16
then. Yeah, Jim Garrison died not long
41:18
after the film was released, but he does play a part in the film.
41:20
In a flashback scene, he plays the head of the Commission, Earl
41:24
Warren, right? There were a lot of outrageous
41:26
revelations in the real Jim Garrison's investigation,
41:29
including him giving key witness Perry Russo, who we mentioned
41:32
earlier William O'Keefe is partly based on.
41:35
He gave him questions under hypnosis and shots of sodium
41:38
pentathol, informally known as the truth serum, to get the
41:42
answers that he wanted about Clay Shaw.
41:45
Hypnosis doesn't show that. Funny that.
41:51
Why, Yeah. Omit that.
41:52
Embellish that. Definitely.
41:55
There were a lot of unsubstantiated theories in his
41:57
argument, and it took the jury only one hour to acquit.
42:01
Clear show, right? Which kind of shows you how
42:04
paper thin his argument was. Really.
42:06
Yeah. Probably Russo's in the film
42:08
though, wasn't he? He's the guy at the bar at the
42:10
start applauding Kennedy being shot and seeing all the medal.
42:14
That's right. He was.
42:16
He was an advisor on the film. Yeah.
42:18
So one of the most perfect casting choices of the 90s.
42:21
Costner was your go to wholesome actor in the period and this is
42:24
one of his greatest roles. Sure is.
42:29
Next up is the man Garrison tries to pin the entire case on.
42:33
It is Tommy Lee Jones who plays Clay Shaw, and I think this is a
42:37
very tricky role for Tommy Lee Jones.
42:39
His character exists largely in flashback, so he often isn't
42:43
present presence. He's part of, you know, that big
42:47
stretch, 45 minute courtroom stretch at the end.
42:50
But he's not really present there either, no.
42:52
And he's there to personify Garrison Stones and the
42:55
audience's anger and frustration at the whole thing.
42:57
He's the poster boy for the assassination.
42:59
That's what Stone makes it. Obviously he's two people, isn't
43:02
he's two different sides to the coin.
43:04
And I think the flashbacks you see who he really is and then
43:06
the present day you don't see anything from whatsoever.
43:08
I think it's really played like. Yeah, it is.
43:10
He don't. Amazingly played.
43:12
He has to be memorable and forgettable.
43:14
In fact, you were seeing Westie. Two sides of the coin.
43:16
He has to be heinous and sympathetic.
43:18
Guilt. He is sin and innocent.
43:19
There's a choirboy. See why he got the job AS2 face
43:22
now can you? Don't know how he manages, but
43:26
he manages to pull all of this off while remaining in the
43:28
background and it's an incredible thing that he does
43:31
and it's largely down to his delivery and his physicality.
43:35
Yeah. You know his actions are
43:37
excusable to a degree. If you were being accused of
43:39
something that you hadn't done, you would try to rubbish the
43:42
credibility of your accuser in the press.
43:45
He's great in that scene when he's arrested.
43:47
When the police come to his door, he's got his silk pajamas
43:50
on, and the look on his face is that of like a rabbit caught in
43:53
headlights. In that one shot, he's able to
43:56
convey without any words the distinct possibility that
43:59
Garrison's just got it wrong all along and that this isn't the
44:01
guy and that maybe he's being persecuted because of his
44:05
sexuality, which has LED certain people to consider that this
44:08
would make him capable of this overblown plot.
44:10
Outrageous stuff. And I really love the moment in
44:13
the police station where he's asked if he goes by any aliases,
44:16
and he reluctantly says, Clay Bertrand, and there's reporters
44:26
being for blood behind him calling out his name.
44:28
And we can see in that moment that regardless of the outcome
44:31
of this investigation, I think his life will be changed forever
44:34
for the worse as well. An impressively restrained
44:37
performance from TLJ here for me.
44:39
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
44:40
This is just so unlike him. It's so out of like, it's so
44:44
against type, but I think that's why it's so incredible.
44:46
Because Lee Jones is like a tough guy, isn't he?
44:49
Yeah. Yeah, you would seem like
44:50
there's no way you would do some of the things in this film or
44:52
get it about when I'm talking about the scene, but there's
44:54
some scenes in this list. That with Tommy Lee.
44:56
Jones, yeah. Is that totally Jones?
44:58
Yeah. Just he has that reputation of
45:00
just being a little bit of a hard ass, just very much down
45:02
the line what he wants to do. And then he meets Oliver Stone
45:04
and this, Yeah, not his matches. Power struggle, yeah.
45:09
And Lee Jones also prepared for his role by spending time with
45:12
Garrison, along with acquaintances of Clare Shaw.
45:15
He was in the frame to play the character that was ultimately
45:17
cut from the shooting strip, so it's still moved him into this
45:19
role. It doesn't seem like a natural
45:21
fit, but he just fits naturally into.
45:23
It. So I've always been in movies
45:25
for over 2 decades. JFK made TLG household name in
45:29
the 90s and without it I'm certain that he wouldn't go on
45:31
to get his Oscar for the future to a couple of years later.
45:37
Finally, what better way to fill the mythical shoes of one of
45:40
recent history's great enigmas and give it to an Englishman
45:43
with a relatively low key career so far?
45:45
Yeah. Yeah, but it's another career
45:48
catapulted and role for Gary Oldman as Lee Harvey Oswald I.
45:52
Mean this performance is incredible.
45:55
He is immersed in this role. He just disappears completely,
45:59
much like he does as Drexel. I think it's very much just I'm
46:02
giving into the material, I'm giving it to the director, I'm
46:05
giving into this film and I'm just going to completely
46:06
disappear. I don't.
46:07
You can see he probably doesn't even want paying for it at all.
46:10
He's just enjoyed himself that much.
46:13
You can see that's not his fault because he's not doing this to
46:15
further his career. He's not doing it to get some
46:18
money in the bank. He's doing this because this is
46:19
an absolute actor's dream. What's Oldman's dream to become
46:23
this character that everybody knows, this personification,
46:26
this like you say, he is the enigma.
46:28
He is the mystery of the film. Who is Lee Harvey Oswald?
46:31
Is he a Patsy? Is he?
46:33
Did he speak Russian? You know, he's in the Marines,
46:35
but he was, you know, court martialed twice.
46:37
Who is this guy? The person who Lee Harvey Oswald
46:40
is is so integral to this whole thing politically because if you
46:44
can figure out him as a person, you can figure out if he did it
46:46
or not. And I think that's what all this
46:47
really getting a hold of. He's incredible in this film,
46:51
but he doesn't steal it. And I don't know how, but
46:54
everyone's the same. It's not like, oh, it's not like
46:56
he's Ledger in The Dark Knight, right where he's on the screen.
46:58
You don't want to believe yes this he kind of feels like it's
47:02
a similar performance where he's so involved in it, but he's just
47:05
part of it doesn't stand out. He just seeps into it all when
47:09
he leaves after the shooting he's coming out the books, but
47:11
all the different kind of ways that it's explained when he's
47:13
running down the stairs and it's not worried that it's just
47:15
everything's believable. It is everything makes sense no
47:18
matter what way you look at it. We way Oldman plays every single
47:22
angle of everyone's opinion on Oswald.
47:24
It all makes sense. You know, when ferries talking
47:26
about the whole we're going to kill Kennedy and this is going
47:28
to be the whole but in front the Cubans, this is how we're going
47:31
to do it. This is the whole plan.
47:32
And it just pushes in on Alderman and he's just sitting
47:35
there and you just see that he just completely disagrees with
47:37
everything that's being said, but he's excited about it at the
47:40
same time. Yeah.
47:41
So if you're directing someone and they say the camera is going
47:44
to push in on you, you don't agree with this, but you're
47:46
excited about it. What we dialogue.
47:49
None. None.
47:52
How long I forgot in the scene? 8 seconds. 8 seconds, 9 seconds,
47:56
Right. OK, yeah, yeah, I can do that.
47:58
And it's just glorious and absolute joy to watch.
48:02
I know you went up there all of a stone.
48:04
And he still had things to say. He still had things to do.
48:06
I think that finished in the whole kind of Oswald scenes that
48:10
he had to do. When he said I've got I've got
48:11
more say as Harvey or what? Can you just point the camera at
48:14
us? So Stone just humored and
48:15
pointed the camera and they apparently gave him a 16 minute
48:18
monologue straight into the camera as Lee Harvey Oswald just
48:21
getting everything off his chest that he'd researched everything
48:23
that he wanted to do, everything he wanted to get down.
48:26
So all of a sudden said that exists somewhere.
48:27
That's 16 minutes of footage killed his.
48:30
He, to be honest, absolutely amazing.
48:32
He said none of it went. The film didn't need it.
48:34
So it was a completely different kettle of fish.
48:37
But he needed it off his chest because he said I can't, I need
48:39
closure on this character. I can't move on. 16 minutes just
48:43
rattled it off as the character and Stone said he was absolutely
48:46
breath taken by that's how much Oldman puts into this and that's
48:49
how much we get out of it. It's such an incredible
48:51
performance. It's probably would be out of
48:53
sync with the rest of the film, but can imagine that and the
48:56
monologue at the end and X's monologue in this film.
48:59
It could have been like this could have predated the whole
49:02
Marvel thing. Just have that as like a post
49:04
credit, yeah. Yeah.
49:05
It's a shot in 16 mil and it just.
49:07
Kind of. Yeah, he's just turned to the
49:10
camera. It goes for every year in there.
49:11
Another 16 minutes. The turnover on that screen
49:14
would have been a fucking nightmare.
49:16
Get that cleaned. How long we've got?
49:18
3 minutes. Stone cast Old Man after seeing
49:24
him in Sid and Nancy. He said he saw the dark side of
49:27
his range and wanted that for Oswald.
49:30
Obviously he brings that. But before he was cast, Frank
49:32
Whaley said that Stone had promised him the part of Oswald
49:35
because they'd work together on The Doors, and apparently he
49:38
only found out he didn't get the part when he read about it in a
49:40
free movie magazine when he went to the cinema.
49:42
Oh blessed man. Yeah, he said.
49:47
I was just heartbroken because I was really anxious to play that
49:50
role and to work with Oliver again.
49:51
And Stonewood later apologized to Whaley and cast him as Oswald
49:55
impersonator in the film. Yeah.
49:57
The. From the top man.
49:58
Yes, he is grossing that as well.
50:00
Yeah, it's fantastic. Two years later, he did get to
50:03
play Lee Harvey Oswald in the TV movie Fatal Deception.
50:06
Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, I'm sure you know.
50:09
I'm sure you're aware of it. Yeah, you got to post it.
50:12
That's on the next poll coming up.
50:14
Feature That sounds like a Mel Brooks film.
50:20
Within a Mel Brooks film, Yeah, and the script as well didn't
50:24
include much about Lee Harvey Oswald at all.
50:26
Instead, all of us don't give old man a fistful of plane
50:29
tickets and a contacts list and told him to go away and do his
50:32
own research. I mean, for how intricate Stone
50:36
is and how on the ball he is. This is the guy who apparently
50:39
killed Kennedy. Yeah, slop.
50:41
Go and sort it out. Let's.
50:42
Go where you want to. Sort that one out.
50:45
Don't know mate, just here's a plane ticket.
50:46
Just, you know, fuck off and find out I've got.
50:47
A lot on me. Got a lot on.
50:55
Beat the Pozniak players Oswald's wife Marina.
50:58
She prepared for the role by moving in with the real Marina
51:01
for a. Couple of months.
51:02
That's too intrusive. Also got permission to just turn
51:06
up on the morning. Allman spent time with Marina as
51:11
well, and he and Pozniak improvised their dialogue
51:13
together based on conversations with people who knew the real
51:16
Oswald. So not much to go on really for
51:20
Gary. Osman not at all, which is why
51:22
you had like another 20 minutes ago off his chest.
51:25
So 3 incredibly memorable performances from the three lead
51:29
actors, Lee Jones and Allman's characters nefariously crank
51:32
away in the background. Power and Garrison's goodwill
51:35
crusade against what's right and what's wrong.
51:44
All right, movies, we'll be right back.
51:46
Thank you for supporting us by listening to the sponsors for
51:49
this episode. Thank you for listening to our
51:53
sponsors. And now it's back to the show.
51:59
The middle. The second Axis Garrison and his
52:04
cronies pulling together a convincing case as they notice
52:07
holes the size of bullets in the war and reports findings.
52:10
And Matthew are starting us off in the place where it all
52:13
started. I certainly am because the build
52:15
up to this, I love all these like shoe leather sequences
52:18
where Garrison and his team are interviewing.
52:20
The eyewitnesses love it because they saw many of them.
52:22
This isn't a case where there's maybe one or two people saw
52:25
something suspicious. The witnesses are everywhere.
52:29
You've got all the men who saw people running from the parking
52:31
lot. You've got the hey, Mr.
52:33
President, woman down on the street.
52:35
You heard the shot and saw the gun flash from the grassy Knoll.
52:38
You've got the woman who saw Jack Ruby looking suspicious in
52:40
a truck, and then her statement was changed inside by someone
52:44
who wasn't her. And they're just also
52:46
respectable compared to Willie O'Keefe if, you know, just
52:49
wouldn't stand up in court. And this is where everything
52:52
starts to open up. This is Stone, one by one, just
52:55
knocking down every single domino.
52:57
And it's relentless because he's paving the way for his ultimate
53:00
argument at the end where he's going to pay everything off.
53:03
And then Speaking of payoffs, we've already had the scene with
53:06
Senator Long where he saw in the seeds of doubt about the
53:09
likelihood of Oswald being good enough to be the shooter.
53:12
And then you get the payoff to that with Garrison and Lou in
53:15
the Book Depository going through all the reasons this
53:18
doesn't make sense. And it's so different to
53:21
something like All the President's Men, which this gets
53:23
compared to a lot, obviously. Because to follow that film,
53:26
that conspiracy, I feel like I've got to have Wikipedia open
53:30
to follow along with it like. Who's?
53:31
Porter again. What did he do?
53:35
Everything is laid out so simply.
53:37
This is Stone saying, look, see how obvious it is that something
53:41
isn't right? Why didn't Oswald take the shot
53:44
when Kennedy was coming straight down the street?
53:46
Yes, before I took the turn. When you see Lou try to mimic
53:49
the shooting pattern and you see just how long it takes just to
53:51
reload that rifle, and he says, and I'm not even aiming and he
53:55
can't even get the three shots off the tree is important
53:59
because it doesn't shed the sleeves.
54:00
He's shooting through the tree and you're just left by the end
54:03
of the same thing. And how has anyone swallowed the
54:05
official story at this point? It's so compelling and it's so
54:09
convincing. I mean that sequence is just so
54:13
dense. So satisfying though, as well as
54:17
significantly that makes sense. Yeah, you will go.
54:20
Because you are, you are on board all of these witnesses,
54:24
they're saying all the right things.
54:26
It's because he's shown you it one exactly that you're saying
54:29
it. You go, well that must be fat,
54:31
that must be fat. The way that he mixes that
54:33
together, it's fantastic. And after this sequence, there's
54:36
a stretch at Garrison's home, which is absolutely spellbinding
54:40
as Susie Cox convinces Garrison and everyone watching that
54:43
Oswald was framed. And, you know, we've talked
54:46
about the cast, memorable performances in the film.
54:49
They're all over the place. But Laurie Metcalf here as Susie
54:52
is about as good as you can get in this film.
54:55
She's brilliant. She's amazing in that scene in
54:57
the restaurant earlier. But in this scene, she's not
55:02
overshadowed by this daunting cast of legends.
55:05
ATV stalwart of Roseanne? Absolutely not sit down at the
55:09
park. Yeah, and Uncle Bulk, obviously.
55:12
Yeah, uncle as well. Yeah, Candy.
55:14
Great. And that, yeah.
55:15
And it's her delivery and her conviction and what she's saying
55:18
that makes this whole stretch soul compelling.
55:21
Yeah, not just the actors as well.
55:22
It's men that you're surrounded by.
55:24
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, not daunted by that.
55:26
Real strength to me, yeah. She's such an appealing presence
55:29
on screen, another convincing character who presents a myriad
55:33
of all blapping stories, but makes it very clear and very
55:36
believable. This, again, is Stone making the
55:39
seemingly overtly complex story just so easy to digest and
55:43
breakdown with incredible performances, wonderful dialogue
55:46
into woven scenes of flashback involving Oswald being set up as
55:49
a Patsy and bringing the Cuban refugees and Guy Bannister back
55:52
into the narrative. Yeah, the whole sequence is
55:56
slick, exciting, scored with ferocity by John Williams,
56:00
directed to within an inch of its life, and ends on a big
56:04
revelation. Grab your hose and your socks
56:06
and pull. Clay Bertrand is Clay Shaw.
56:09
Yeah. Brilliant.
56:10
Amazing. And it's even got time for a
56:12
little gag Garrison ass if everybody wants to quit and
56:15
everyone puts their hand down. See soda bugs?
56:21
Watch that sequence. He's like, right, I'm 8 and
56:23
Brockovich now. Where Knight is also in this
56:29
scene, he plays Numa Bertel, one of Garrison's foot soldiers.
56:34
You'll likely know him as Dennis Nedry in Jurassic Park.
56:37
Yeah, and in his audition he affected a Georgian accent,
56:40
which Stone loved, but after he met the real Bertel, who had a
56:43
New Orleans accent, he changed it up.
56:45
Stone hated that and had to be convinced by night to use an
56:48
accurate accent. Apparently it was a heated
56:50
argument from Ford. Got result and Knights head of
56:52
Stone. He's a rough trade, that man.
56:56
Yeah, I could believe it. Oliver Stone after that.
56:59
Yeah, so talking about Clay and this is the scene.
57:02
Easter Sunday. Yeah.
57:04
He doesn't know it's a holiday he's in.
57:07
Trouble. He's in trouble going to hand
57:09
tons with the kids like we do every year.
57:11
It clearly gets a little bit like I've seen this a million
57:13
times. I don't know if that's since or
57:15
before because the kind of the timelines from 91, I don't know,
57:18
watches when it came out, so mid 20s something.
57:22
And has this been done on the back of this is always the case.
57:25
It's like the guy who's so far into the case that he forgets
57:28
about his family and the kids. But the way this is different.
57:30
I mean, even the babies acting as good in this way because she
57:34
goes says that we're now dated, it's not important, something
57:39
along those lines and go out neither away.
57:41
And then the baby goes as if like reacting to the fact that
57:45
they're not important. Every time she references the
57:47
family, the baby cries and he's trying to argue like with the
57:50
baby. It's just unbelievable and he's
57:51
like, I'll catch up with you later and then we'll bring
57:53
clean. Just these demeanor is just
57:55
slimy, slippery, horrible. He's got one of them, little by
58:00
roles that he smokes his tab through, disgusted.
58:03
He's just that all the way through.
58:04
Yeah, and he's just the way that he just like Lynch.
58:07
Yeah. It's like, it's like an
58:10
extension of his horrible personality.
58:12
It's just absolutely horrible the way he uses that for his
58:15
character as well. And we get this great confidence
58:19
from Garrison, and he knows he's got him licked here.
58:22
Well, no, I've got you. And what about this gentleman?
58:25
And what about this general? What about Ferry?
58:27
What about Oswald? What about O'Keefe?
58:29
And when he mentions O'Keefe, if you watch this again, the edit
58:32
in here and the sound design is amazing because he mentions
58:35
O'Keefe and you hear the doorbell and we'll wait another
58:38
four or five beats. Yeah.
58:39
And he's thinking where to run home from.
58:41
And then you'll get the flashback of the door open.
58:43
Incredible. It's so good and just like, so
58:46
clever as like he's remember it. You're in his brain.
58:49
You're in his brain. And Lee Jones is absolutely
58:51
amazing when he's just been talking about the meeting and
58:54
the talk about being sat at the table and he's on one side, he's
58:57
on the other side. I wouldn't be shouting, you
58:58
know, so certainly I would just saw him Coof and he goes and
59:01
that is the point of a long table.
59:04
It's just, it's kind of like, you know, DiCaprio times in
59:09
Django. It's that.
59:11
Real kind of sneeze to it and there's always something like
59:14
the. Gentleman.
59:15
Yeah, but like, bullshit, you can tell.
59:18
Yeah, nailed that dude. And I can't believe when you get
59:28
Ferry coming in, you get O'Keefe there, you get another gentleman
59:31
and it turns into like the probably what the strangest
59:36
Barry Lyndon spoof. Mixed with Goldfinger.
59:41
Mixed with Goldfinger and apparently paying themselves
59:44
gold was Tommy Lee Jones idea. He was like up for it.
59:49
I can do this, this is amazing. And it's just so weird, Pesci so
59:53
weird and even O'Keefe they've seen him is like a weird
59:56
character. Even he's on the back foot
59:57
thinking these guys are next level and bizarre.
1:00:00
It's like Caligula or something, isn't?
1:00:03
It is going on. It's absolutely insane.
1:00:06
It warps. He was the audience puts you on
1:00:08
that back foot. And then when we cut back the
1:00:09
gym, it's starting to rain outside.
1:00:11
He's starting to lose it. He's starting to get washed
1:00:13
away. All of the thought that he had,
1:00:16
it's just starting to kind of manipulate his head.
1:00:18
He's trying to think about, can this guy get away with it?
1:00:20
How am I supposed to trap him? And this is probably the only
1:00:22
time, I think, in the film where Jim loses.
1:00:24
He's cool and goes for him and just says, you know I was
1:00:27
appropriate and you just can't crack him.
1:00:30
But he knows he has cracked him but can't prove it again.
1:00:33
And that's all. Just wraps it up beautifully.
1:00:35
And then you have Sissy SpaceX just sitting waiting with five
1:00:37
kids in a restaurant. Nightmare.
1:00:40
Too many. Nightmare, nightmare fuel that
1:00:44
in the just they're getting jittery.
1:00:45
I mean, the fact that she's I think she's just very forgiven
1:00:48
when he comes back and she's kind of like a phone call.
1:00:50
You know, you could have called ahead or you could let us know.
1:00:52
Yeah, Easter Sunday. I would have taken his head off.
1:00:55
That's ridiculous coming back that late.
1:00:58
And then you get again the argument and it's ramped up and
1:01:01
I think a lot of the Garrison home life I could maybe have
1:01:04
done without. I get it.
1:01:06
I. Don't know if that's I
1:01:07
understand. And I think Sissy's pace says
1:01:09
wonderful in it, but I honestly think it leaves me wanting a
1:01:13
little bit. The kids are good, it's fine,
1:01:15
but it doesn't really show his relationship with him.
1:01:17
It comes around at the end and it kind of resolves itself.
1:01:19
And I think this moment especially is the one where, you
1:01:22
know, she delivers that line where you care more about
1:01:24
Kennedy than your own family. And he said it's just going to
1:01:27
get worse. And he knew, know where he
1:01:29
stands is and you know what he believes in.
1:01:31
And I think that's just a little bit too heavy-handed for me, I
1:01:34
think. Yeah.
1:01:35
I know what you're saying. It doesn't.
1:01:36
I'm not too bothered about it because it doesn't dwell too
1:01:38
much. There's maybe two or three
1:01:40
scenes of it. Yeah, there is.
1:01:41
Yeah. So things are moving in the
1:01:43
political world, but Garrison's home life is getting
1:01:46
increasingly strained. It is haven't had his feathers
1:01:52
ruffled. Clay Shaw leaks to the press,
1:01:54
bringing Garrison's investigation into public
1:01:56
consciousness, resulting in David Ferrie becoming very
1:02:01
jittery, and I couldn't love this performance anymore.
1:02:06
Pesci chewing the scenery like nobody's business.
1:02:09
Chandler and Tommy DeVito and Jimmy Conway from Goodfellas
1:02:12
when he's kicking right off over the phone, spitting curse words
1:02:15
and smacking the phone against the receiver.
1:02:18
And then he makes it into the office, and what follows is a
1:02:21
fake hairpiece to the force of nervous energy.
1:02:26
Like a duck's ass, isn't it? With a pot of hot coffee and a
1:02:33
few packs of luckies, he lays down his rambling mess of a
1:02:37
confession, which I don't think anyone can make sense of.
1:02:40
Sure was trying to stitch him up.
1:02:41
He knew Oswald from back in the day.
1:02:43
There's an incredible moment where there's a knock at the
1:02:45
door and very pretty much runs in the other direction, frantic,
1:02:50
and the camera matches him. It spins around almost out of
1:02:52
control toward the door. It's beautiful, out of control
1:02:56
synchronicity. It's incredible.
1:02:57
Yeah, organized chaos. Isn't it?
1:02:59
Oh, it's amazing. Yeah, he's chaining cigarettes.
1:03:02
He's going on to talk about Jack Ruby being a pimp, a bag man for
1:03:05
the Dallas mob who used to run guns for Castro, suggesting that
1:03:08
they check out Operation Mongoose, whatever the hell that
1:03:11
is. Government stuff, you know?
1:03:12
Yeah, but who the fuck pulls the chain?
1:03:14
And who the fuck knows? Incredible.
1:03:17
A crescendo into a swarm of paranoia, and Garrison is
1:03:20
visibly frightened by what he's witnessing here.
1:03:24
And this is where the syrup of figs comes into play.
1:03:26
That wig me well of dialogue and this scene is so loud it is all
1:03:34
over the place. But I do think it's a stylistic
1:03:37
choice by Stone and not a continuity error.
1:03:39
No, absolutely, definitely, definitely, definitely a choice,
1:03:41
100%. It's a choice.
1:03:44
It's a choice, it's a lovely piece.
1:03:46
It's a nice piece. It heightens Ferries mania.
1:03:52
I do find it interesting that there are absolutely no
1:03:54
flashbacks in this scene. No cutaways, no change of film
1:03:58
stock or camera. Pesci's so good here that Stone
1:04:01
doesn't need to show who he's talking about.
1:04:03
No. Unlike in the film, the real
1:04:04
David Furry never had been to being mixed up in the
1:04:06
assassination conspiracy. And Pesci's line, which I think
1:04:09
is probably one of the most famous and most quoted from the
1:04:11
film. It's a mystery wrapped in a
1:04:13
Riddle inside an enigma. Amazing.
1:04:15
Was inspired by a speech by Winston Churchill in 1939 where
1:04:19
he said I could not forecast to you the action of Russia.
1:04:22
It is a Riddle wrapped in a mystery inside of the enigma.
1:04:25
Yeah, I mean, it's larger than life, that line, and it really
1:04:27
fits this scene, Yeah, because it's huge.
1:04:30
But then after all this pandemonium fairly quietens down
1:04:34
and it's it's really heartbreaking to hear and
1:04:36
breakdown about all he wanted to do was be a Catholic priest and
1:04:39
to serve God. How can he go from one end of
1:04:42
the scale to the other is mesmerizing.
1:04:44
And I think you've got to have that mania to make the emotion
1:04:47
hit that much harder. Yeah.
1:04:50
And then would go from his anxiety, he's panic to Ferry
1:04:55
being found dead, which is, you know, after another great scene
1:04:58
where the tensions ramped up when they're saying the
1:05:01
Garrison, you know, we need we need to protect them.
1:05:02
This is the guy. This is the most believable
1:05:05
angle that we've got for this whole thing.
1:05:07
And then they find the place bugged, there's somebody inside,
1:05:10
they don't know who it is, and they'll have to be even more
1:05:11
careful. But Garrison, again, just
1:05:13
doesn't buy into this conspiracy around everything.
1:05:16
You just need wants everything straight down the line and makes
1:05:19
a joke and you get that great background shot where it just
1:05:22
kind of turns around and you're fairies dead.
1:05:24
Is that great? But then there's that for Borden
1:05:28
score these close-ups of the apartment and they've just
1:05:32
beautifully framed. This is just, this reminds me of
1:05:34
like 7 on a Steadicam. It's just really well done.
1:05:38
You get all of these close-ups and then the close-ups go black
1:05:40
and white and then the goal color again.
1:05:42
And then they go black, white. And then that Steadicam shot
1:05:45
that goes through the whole apartment, it just lands on
1:05:48
Ferry dead and you're shocked because the wigs, not the
1:05:51
eyebrows aren't there and he's just that's a corpse, right?
1:05:54
It's like it's Joe Petry actually dead.
1:05:56
This is the length that stones gone to.
1:05:59
That's how it feels, and it's really I.
1:06:01
Wouldn't put it past him. Good grief.
1:06:06
That's what I get from just that.
1:06:08
Again, that authenticity. You can kind of smell the place.
1:06:10
And then when he's going around, you don't really want to touch
1:06:12
anything. And there's all this evidence
1:06:14
that's dotted around. And what I get from this, it's
1:06:17
just a really powerful scene and really well played because
1:06:20
there's so many distractions here for Garrison.
1:06:22
There's the bad news from Miami. There's Bill reading out the
1:06:25
suicide notes. There's two different suicide
1:06:27
notes that haven't been signed. What about this and what about
1:06:29
this? And he's still just interested
1:06:32
on, is this a suicide? What happened?
1:06:35
Tell us about it. And he wants to go with the
1:06:36
friends, and he wants to Get the facts.
1:06:38
And he's not bothered about all these are the distractions that
1:06:40
are going on around the whole scene.
1:06:41
And it's brilliant. And then you get flashbacks of
1:06:44
the actual assault. The black and whites are just
1:06:47
intercut with this. But you don't really know if
1:06:49
that's the truth or not, or whether that's what Jim's
1:06:51
imagined in his head, because he wants that to be the truth.
1:06:54
Was it a natural causes? Was it suicide?
1:06:57
Amazing. Again, all of our stone just
1:06:58
firing cannons when he should be firing water pistols.
1:07:01
It's unbelievable. For he did die just after news
1:07:04
broke of Garrison's investigation into the press.
1:07:07
Prior to this, he did say that he feared he would be killed,
1:07:11
but it was ruled that his death was suicide, something which the
1:07:13
real Garrison agreed with, but then On the contrary also said
1:07:17
that murder couldn't be ruled out.
1:07:20
Somebody make a decision on something, for God's sake.
1:07:24
The real furry claimed that he never knew Oswald and this was
1:07:27
the accepted view and it'll afford all resurfaced in 1993 of
1:07:31
him and Oswald in the same Civil Air Patrol unit in the 50s.
1:07:35
All right. As his character mentions in the
1:07:38
previous scene in this film, but that wasn't proven until two
1:07:40
years after the release of the film.
1:07:42
Ah, right. Was Oswald painted gold?
1:07:48
OK, Wesley, we're just going to sit back and relax and enjoy
1:07:51
Matt talking about a scene which pretty sure you were born to
1:07:55
talk about, Matt. Yeah, I want this to be 16
1:07:57
minutes in length exactly. I'm going to get it to the
1:08:01
second. Yeah, of course you want me,
1:08:04
Matt X Bartley. A big X big big.
1:08:08
Bartley Yeah, check that episode out.
1:08:13
I mean, this, I mean, this scenes everyone's favorite
1:08:15
scene, isn't it? Surely Donald Sutherland just
1:08:18
turning up and stealing the entire film like it's no big
1:08:22
deal. I mean, it starts off that
1:08:24
beautiful frame and if Garrison and the statue of Lincoln behind
1:08:27
him. So we know this is a big deal.
1:08:29
And then Sutherland turned up that amazing raincoat and hat
1:08:32
just looks incredible. And this scene, I mean, it's
1:08:35
something else entirely. Because for start, it's pretty
1:08:37
much nothing but exposition. And in most films, exposition is
1:08:40
always the rubbish part. It's the point you don't like,
1:08:43
it's the point you criticize. In JFK, the exposition is the
1:08:46
best thing. It is, yeah.
1:08:47
Somehow, Stone makes it the most compelling and exciting part of
1:08:51
the film, and it's so enthralling to see every fresh
1:08:55
layer of evidence in conspiracy revealed for Garrison here.
1:08:59
And by this point, he is absolutely all in.
1:09:01
I mean, he does not question the single thing that X lays out of
1:09:05
him going all the way back to the beginning, to the V.
1:09:07
And I'm on what they did in World War 2 and how this ties
1:09:09
in. I mean, I've just got this image
1:09:12
of Stone right in the scene at 4:00 in the morning, fueled by
1:09:15
caffeine and God knows what else going on.
1:09:16
And do you know what what else happened?
1:09:18
Listen, listen, listen, listen as well.
1:09:20
All this, all this goes in here, and this is the scene where
1:09:23
Stone just commits to it and he doesn't care what anyone thinks.
1:09:26
Like, I'm going to have this scene where someone explains the
1:09:29
Gauss and how deep this conspiracy goes, and it's going
1:09:31
to be 16 minutes long and no one's going to tell me
1:09:33
otherwise. Just an absolute madman on top
1:09:36
of this form. But it is hypnotic stuff.
1:09:39
Watson, Sutherland, deliver this speech.
1:09:40
I mean, he is magnificent in this.
1:09:42
Yeah, when he says you're close, you're closer than you think,
1:09:46
you practically, like, fall off your seat because he's edging
1:09:48
towards you. See.
1:09:49
Like tell me more, tell me more. What you mean?
1:09:54
It's like Deep Throat in all the president's manners.
1:09:56
It is, oh it is, but turned up to 11 and there's no action.
1:09:59
It's just talking in exposition and obviously Sutherland
1:10:03
deserves all the prayers in the wealth this but just watch
1:10:04
Costner because he can see Garrison.
1:10:06
He's like sinking. He's becoming more despondent as
1:10:08
he realizes the sheer fast forces up against the.
1:10:12
Yeah, yeah. And to hear extras demolish the
1:10:15
case. You know the background, Oswald,
1:10:17
that was ready to go very quickly.
1:10:19
Why did they take the bubble top off the car?
1:10:21
Why were all those building windows left open?
1:10:23
Why weren't the men on the streets?
1:10:25
Why did Washington telephones go out for an hour?
1:10:27
It's like the Book Depository scene amped up to 11.
1:10:30
If making it stunningly obvious that the whole thing was to set
1:10:32
up. And that awesome way he holds 3
1:10:34
fingers up. Why was Candy killed?
1:10:35
Who benefited? Who had the power to cover it
1:10:37
up? I've never seen someone like
1:10:39
Called do like 123 like that before and it makes it so
1:10:42
memorable. But then it kind of makes me
1:10:44
laugh because there's this pause and everything is sinking in for
1:10:46
Garrison, and then X leans forward and he just goes in
1:10:50
1961. What?
1:10:51
There's more like he's only been talking for 8 minutes and
1:10:55
there's more to come. It goes on for another 8 minutes
1:10:58
and then he descends it. I just hope you get a break and
1:11:00
then walks off. You decide to see?
1:11:03
Yeah. Thanks.
1:11:04
What do I do now? Just it's, it's amazing, this
1:11:08
scene. Yeah, Sutherland's delivery,
1:11:10
yeah. Oh, he's absolutely incredible.
1:11:14
Yeah. It's incredibly Moorish, it's a
1:11:16
delicious performance. It's just, yeah, it's so good.
1:11:20
X is based on a couple of people.
1:11:21
Firstly Richard Case Nagle ACIA agent, who said that he knew
1:11:26
Kennedy was going to be killed before it happened.
1:11:28
But more specifically X was based on a Colonel in the Air
1:11:30
Force and Chief of Staff under JFK, Leroy Fletcher Prouty.
1:11:35
He later became critical of the CIA, claiming they were part of
1:11:37
a secret world elite. You know, I mean, if you talk
1:11:41
like Sutherland does in the film, I believe anything he
1:11:43
says. Well, exactly.
1:11:44
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, proudly acted as a
1:11:46
technical advisor in the film, obviously.
1:11:50
Get Is he a crackpot? Get him.
1:11:52
He sounds great, Stone said. His first meeting with Proudly
1:11:56
was one of the most extraordinary afternoons I've
1:11:58
ever spent. Pretty much like in the movie,
1:12:00
he just started to talk. Yes, singing like a Canary.
1:12:03
Yeah, I mean, I can do that talk about bullshit for 16 minutes
1:12:08
and make it sound feasible. It's all I've done in the last
1:12:11
100 episodes. In The Conspiracy, that X layers
1:12:16
out alludes to a text published in 1967, which was called The
1:12:20
Report from Iron Mountain, but it's author, Leonard C Lewin,
1:12:23
revealed the whole thing was a hoax in 1972.
1:12:26
Yeah, another thing which just muddies the waters of
1:12:29
credibility. Going to ignore that.
1:12:32
Yeah, yeah, keep. It the way, Yeah, the way to
1:12:34
clear muddy water is to just leave it alone.
1:12:37
It's stones just stamping. Another wellies, honestly.
1:12:42
Originally, Stone had Marlon Brando in mind for the role of
1:12:46
X. Wow, wow.
1:12:47
Something that would have Julie torpedoed the film if his antics
1:12:51
on Apocalypse 12 years earlier or any sign.
1:12:54
Yeah, costing us hold never than up for him to read off a board.
1:12:57
Yeah, they would have put it on the statue, wouldn't they?
1:12:59
Support on the statue just reading the top of the bottom.
1:13:04
Stone said that Brandon would have made the film 15 times
1:13:07
longer. Definitely would have.
1:13:11
It would have been amazing though.
1:13:12
Yeah, it would have been, but I mean, Sutherland, incredible
1:13:16
stuff, yeah. Unbelievable.
1:13:18
And it brings us to our very first question from a patron of
1:13:22
all the right movies that is Phil Dolby.
1:13:24
Hello, Phil. Hello, Phil.
1:13:25
Hi. Phil, if you are a Patreon
1:13:28
supporter of us, you get the opportunity to ask us a question
1:13:31
and Phil's is Donald Sutherland's Deep Throat blows
1:13:35
the film wide open and is genuinely frightening.
1:13:37
If Donald Sutherland had not been capable, who would you have
1:13:40
given an equally impactful performance in that role right
1:13:44
now? Two performers that would have
1:13:46
worked out for me here. OK, firstly, and I'll be stunned
1:13:49
if neither of you have chosen this guy.
1:13:50
OK, The legend that was and always will be Gene Hackman.
1:13:55
Yeah. Nice.
1:13:56
A combination of his iconic voice and impose and stature
1:13:59
would have just worked wonders for X and this whole speech, I
1:14:02
think. Yeah.
1:14:02
I mean, I wouldn't switch Sutherland out.
1:14:04
Oh, no, no. But if I had to, yeah, man's
1:14:07
waiting in the wings. Just like LBJ.
1:14:08
He's waiting in the wings. Yeah, going to be sworn in.
1:14:14
And secondly, I think James L Jones would have fit the bill.
1:14:18
Very nice. Yeah, Again, it's the voice,
1:14:21
which just would have provided an immediate sense of authority
1:14:24
and trust in that character. Yeah.
1:14:26
You know, there are more, but I don't want to step in any toes.
1:14:28
So Westie 5 picks from you go. Yeah, 4.
1:14:31
Four, Yeah. Just going off the opening voice
1:14:36
over, I think would have been good to have Martin Sheen in
1:14:38
there. Brilliant.
1:14:39
Just to match the voice over, to think, is that him talking at
1:14:42
the start? Just another layer a little bit.
1:14:44
Yeah, good, I think. And I was.
1:14:45
Just thinking around 91, like who was good in 91, who was, who
1:14:49
was kicking it, who was giving it, you know, some really good
1:14:51
performances. And I would have Nick Nolte
1:14:53
probably in there. Oh, who was he was nominated for
1:14:57
Prince of Tides, right? 91 I think.
1:14:59
Yeah. Fucking excellent.
1:15:01
At that point, he's superb. And I think he would have
1:15:03
really, yeah, brought some weight to that.
1:15:07
Scott Glenn, I think at that time.
1:15:08
Yeah. Would have been really good
1:15:10
because he's got that look and you kind of know him but don't
1:15:13
know where from. And he was amazing.
1:15:15
The Backdraft in 91. He was fantastic in that film
1:15:18
and one that I would kind of maybe have a little bit of a,
1:15:22
just for my personal taste. Sean Connery.
1:15:27
All right. Just so we can recreate that
1:15:29
scene in the Unjustables where he talks them in the church.
1:15:33
All right, That would be absolutely wonderful.
1:15:34
But common not changing his accent.
1:15:36
Yes. Yeah.
1:15:36
Don't know where he's from. Yeah.
1:15:39
He's like, is he Scottish? Don't know.
1:15:40
It's it'd be an amazing. And then?
1:15:44
1961, you're close. Yeah, real.
1:15:48
You don't know how close. Brilliant.
1:15:51
But yeah, that's my fault. Excellent.
1:15:55
And Matt, have we stepped on your toes at all?
1:15:57
Amazingly, not at all. We've all been very different.
1:16:00
Stunned. 2 came to mind very quickly, but I think they're
1:16:03
just two on the nose for reasons you'll understand when I say
1:16:06
them. Hal Holbrook would have been
1:16:08
great, but again, two close to all persons man and for the same
1:16:12
reasons. He would have been amazing but
1:16:14
probably wouldn't have worked. Jason Roberts, he'd been
1:16:18
incredible. So the one I would have gone for
1:16:20
who wouldn't be too on the nose and I think just has that real
1:16:23
kind of ability. Sutherland has to discipline the
1:16:25
background a bit. Robert Duvall, I think, would
1:16:28
have been excellent. Nice.
1:16:30
Yeah, great, Nick. Great, Nick.
1:16:33
Maybe not at this point, but. We'll see get him, you know,
1:16:36
working out again kill go this place is why did the kill bull
1:16:40
have given given this kind of dialogue in that style really
1:16:43
bombastic in 1961. You know that smell?
1:16:50
Smell in 1961? Phones.
1:16:56
The phones were out. Well, you have anybody in the
1:17:02
windows? Oh, excellent.
1:17:11
No crossover and a great question.
1:17:14
Thank you very much. Phil, thank.
1:17:15
You, Phil, That was good fun. And that brings to an end an
1:17:18
incredible stretch in the middle of the film, full of larger than
1:17:21
life characters with even taller tales to tell.
1:17:24
Yeah. The crew.
1:17:31
One of the most talented crews of the decade, full of legendary
1:17:34
figures. John Williams, the scorer, and
1:17:36
Robert Richardson's visuals are coming up, but first it's the
1:17:39
screenplay by Oliver Stone and Zachary Skylar.
1:17:42
Yes, it is indeed. And part of Stones motivation
1:17:44
for making JFK was in response to the Warren port.
1:17:47
Much like Jim Garrison I guess, this was a Commission set up to
1:17:50
establish the facts of Kennedys assassination, headed up by
1:17:52
Chief Justice of the US Earl Warren.
1:17:55
And the findings of the report were made public 10 months
1:17:57
later, September 1964, concluding that Oswald acted as
1:18:01
a lone gunman and took Jack Ruby's explanation that he
1:18:04
executed Oswald so the Kennedy family didn't have to go through
1:18:08
the pain of a trial. At face value, there were no
1:18:10
other parties connected to these two murders at all.
1:18:13
If you believe that, I'll tell you another one.
1:18:17
Oliver Stone's suspicions grew from the 70s onwards into the
1:18:19
80s in the wake of lies the US government taught regarding
1:18:23
Vietnam, Watergate, Iran Contra, that kind of thing.
1:18:26
It's widely documented that he served in Vietnam and
1:18:29
revelations about the motivations for the war switched
1:18:31
his right leaning views swiftly to the left.
1:18:33
If the government could lie about that, then they can lie
1:18:35
about anything. Yeah, and, Stone said.
1:18:38
I believe the Warren Commission report is a great myth and in
1:18:40
order to fight a myth maybe you have to create another one, a
1:18:43
counter myth. Just lies there.
1:18:45
Yeah, yeah. There's the flashback within the
1:18:47
flashback, yeah. So about how do you feel about
1:18:50
Stone and Skyler's writing on JFK?
1:18:52
I think thorough is the word here I would use.
1:18:56
Stone's a clever man. He knows he's going to get a lot
1:18:59
of heat for going where this film goes.
1:19:02
So this is where he has to cover his own back with the writing
1:19:04
because he wants you to believe what he believes.
1:19:06
And the only way to do that is to stuff the film with as much
1:19:09
research as he possibly can do. I mean, the amount of names
1:19:13
introduced to the amount of dates, the amount of Shia
1:19:15
information at this point. Oswald did this.
1:19:18
He went here, then he met this guy, then he was back in Cuba,
1:19:21
and then the next day, Clear Shaw turned up and it's all got
1:19:23
a link together. It's a constant barrage of facts
1:19:25
to keep track of. And it's kind of miraculous that
1:19:28
you do keep track of it. And the only way you do is
1:19:30
because of how Stone and Skylar laid out for you.
1:19:33
Like in their heads they see all these connections and to have
1:19:36
the ability to put them down on the page and draw them all
1:19:38
together and interweave every single name.
1:19:41
Oswald, Jack, Ruby, Clay Shaw, the Cubans, the generals,
1:19:45
Garrison implicated Lyndon Johnson in the murder.
1:19:48
And it gets to the point where you go, well, I'm convinced like
1:19:51
everything you said makes sense because you have done your
1:19:54
research without a shadow of a doubt, obviously.
1:19:56
You know more than me on this subject.
1:19:58
Yeah, you know more than me, so I'm happy to go with you.
1:20:01
The thing is, this could have easily been a documentary, but
1:20:03
he wants to dramatise it and the best way he can dramatise it is
1:20:06
essentially to make it a whodunit.
1:20:08
And his ability to turn all these very dry facts and figures
1:20:12
and names on the page in research and turn those into the
1:20:15
most compelling who done it imaginable is pretty remarkable.
1:20:19
Yeah, he turns it into Chinatown somehow.
1:20:21
Yeah, it's very Chinatown. It's incredible.
1:20:23
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's it must have
1:20:25
been huge this to get this delivered and read through it.
1:20:29
But for the cast that they assembled, it must have been
1:20:31
incredible on the page because people have just went well, I
1:20:34
don't even want paying for this. I'll do it.
1:20:36
I've got 1 scene. I don't care.
1:20:37
So it must have been really compelling from the get go.
1:20:39
And I think that's all down to Stone's ambition and his
1:20:44
beliefs. It doesn't waiver at all.
1:20:47
And I think that would have started with the first page of
1:20:48
the screenplay. He knows exactly where he's
1:20:50
going with it. He knows exactly the story that
1:20:52
he wants to tell. You know, it's exactly the lies
1:20:54
he wants to weave and he's got no shame in doing it because he
1:20:58
feels like he's been lied to in this whole film.
1:21:01
Feels like a massive finger up. It's a response to that.
1:21:03
Isn't it is an absolute response to it.
1:21:05
So if you can spin a web of lies, I'm going to spin one as
1:21:07
well. But it's going to be 100 times
1:21:09
more believable than 100 times more entertaining than what you
1:21:12
did. The self belief he's got in his
1:21:14
ability as a director, as a writer, as a storyteller, and as
1:21:17
somebody who can really put all of these pieces together, not
1:21:21
only make you think, not only make you feel, but also make you
1:21:25
incredibly entertained for 3 1/2 hours.
1:21:28
And it's just, it is an incredible feat, the whole
1:21:30
thing. But I think it all just ties
1:21:32
together to Stone having this belief, having this vision and
1:21:34
going for it 100%. Yeah, pure conviction.
1:21:37
Yeah, it's obviously a nut on the subject of JFK and no doubt
1:21:41
has read countless books, part of a countless conspiracy
1:21:44
theories and based on his public position, and, you know, he was
1:21:47
in a unique position himself to be able to add to the conspiracy
1:21:50
theories with one of his own. Usually I don't really care for
1:21:55
like, wild swings where there is revisionism of the truth to make
1:21:59
way for a juicy narrative. But you know, there were
1:22:02
conspiracy theories abound well before this film.
1:22:06
And this just taps into the thirst for more.
1:22:08
It presents its information earnestly and concisely and
1:22:10
presents what it thinks is the truth or partial truth or or
1:22:14
wish fulfillment or whatever it is.
1:22:16
It's all. Part of the big.
1:22:17
JFK machine that keeps on churning out theory after theory
1:22:20
after theory throughout the years and it's just a
1:22:23
tantalizing story and when people don't have the facts they
1:22:26
make shade up it's human nature of.
1:22:28
Course they do. Almost everything that Storm
1:22:30
presents has at least an element of untruth.
1:22:34
Now, that's usually has at least an element of truth.
1:22:37
But Nope all the way around. But when you don't have all the
1:22:40
facts, why let the truth get in the way of good story?
1:22:43
Yeah, journalist Vincent Bugliosi said in his book
1:22:46
Reclaiming History, The Assassination of President John
1:22:48
F Kennedy said that there were 32 untruths in this film.
1:22:52
He said that the film was as A1 continuous line, which Stone
1:22:55
couldn't find any level of deception and invention beyond
1:22:58
which he was unwilling to go to. Right, 32 is not that bad.
1:23:02
It's not. Really.
1:23:06
Wow, when you're telling 32 lies and that's not bad in.
1:23:10
This book I thought it would be 132 or something.
1:23:15
For example, Matt, you mentioned it earlier, there's a large
1:23:17
chunk of the film devoted to the notion that the time life fought
1:23:20
of Oswald holding the gun was deducted.
1:23:23
It's a theory which has been debunked, or at least debated
1:23:26
and considered factually accurate.
1:23:29
The film ties you up in knots. A lot of people, myself
1:23:32
included, would have taken this film at face value.
1:23:34
Believe in what is presented. What do you believe?
1:23:39
And that's the beauty of the storytelling here.
1:23:40
Even if you question, in the film's accuracy, at least, your
1:23:43
question something which you'll naturally take away and question
1:23:48
other aspects of the investigation.
1:23:51
And what he does is stuff a film full of detail.
1:23:53
I don't think we're supposed to remember all of it.
1:23:55
How could you? But what he does is imprint on
1:23:58
us an overwhelming sense of emotion that it's easy to be
1:24:01
taken along for the ride. I think it's incredibly ballsy
1:24:04
for anyone to make a film about this subject that's been taken
1:24:07
over the hearts of the collective American public.
1:24:10
It's probably the most infamous moment in the century and Stone
1:24:13
just smashes in there with his wild riot.
1:24:15
A conspiracy. And he was our age at the time.
1:24:18
Would you fancy taking this on now?
1:24:21
God, not really. It's hard enough.
1:24:22
It's hard enough doing this, never mind making it.
1:24:30
Agreed. Yeah, it is an amalgam of
1:24:33
missing truths, of untruths, of composite characters and pure
1:24:36
conjecture. So on through everything and the
1:24:38
kitchen sink into the accusations raising the film,
1:24:41
the CIA, the FBI, the mafia, U.S. military, Secret Service
1:24:45
and the waiting in the wings Vice president LBJ all in the
1:24:48
fire 9. Although Stone later claimed
1:24:50
that the film never accuses Lynda B Johnson.
1:24:53
And I do just love the sheet guts to put it all on screen.
1:25:01
If you're not going to give us the truth, then I'm just going
1:25:04
to make things very difficult for you.
1:25:05
You want conspiracy theories? Well, stitch this.
1:25:08
Yeah, he has 32. Yeah.
1:25:10
Yeah. But he never purported that the
1:25:14
film was based on truth. Months before he came out, he
1:25:17
told New York Times. I've taken dramatic license.
1:25:19
It's not a true story per SE. It is not the Jim Carrison
1:25:22
story. It's a film called JFK.
1:25:24
It explores all the possible scenarios of why Kennedy was
1:25:26
killed, who killed him and why. So he's upfront with it.
1:25:31
He didn't put any punches. Yeah, exactly.
1:25:33
And the film is based on two texts, most notably the 1988
1:25:37
book On the Trail of the Assassins by Jim Garrison, which
1:25:41
detailed his investigation into the theory that New Orleans
1:25:43
entrepreneur Clay Shaw was involved in a plot to kill JFK.
1:25:47
And Shaw had worked with the CIA, who wanted to take Kennedy
1:25:50
out because of his alleged plans to pull out of Vietnam and
1:25:53
change American foreign policy. And it was also based on Jim
1:25:56
Marr's book Crossfire, the plot that killed Kennedy, which was a
1:26:00
compilation of, you know, a lot of crackpot theories, conspiracy
1:26:04
theories, one of which involved Hitman and Woody Harrelson's
1:26:07
father, Charles Harrison, being implicated in the conspiracy.
1:26:10
Yeah. Yeah, he's meant to be one of
1:26:12
the Trump's, wasn't he? The three Trump's that were
1:26:14
picked up, he was identified, Yeah.
1:26:16
Yeah, and that's been substantiated using forensic
1:26:20
photographic evidence. Wow.
1:26:21
But you know, from what? Which point of view?
1:26:23
And who knows? That is not Yeah, yeah.
1:26:26
Despite these two sources, Stone test a recent Yale graduate,
1:26:29
Jane Roscone, to lead a team of researchers together all
1:26:33
available information on the assassination while he was put
1:26:35
in the finishing touches to Born on the 4th of July.
1:26:38
I mean, he's reading books while he's making Born on the 4th of
1:26:40
July put finisher touches to this.
1:26:42
I mean, Born on the 4th of July is pretty intense film as well.
1:26:45
And the doors in between that and.
1:26:46
The doors in between, Yeah. Rosconi and her team went
1:26:50
through around 200 books in total for the research.
1:26:53
Yeah, and the other person who's got the call right, Zachary
1:26:56
Skyler. He helped the real Jim Garrison
1:26:59
write his book. He was instrumental in
1:27:00
transforming it from a scholarly text to a detective story.
1:27:04
Yeah, right. And he also edited Mars's book,
1:27:07
so Stone snapped him up to write the first draft.
1:27:09
Yeah, I think he would have maybe just been like, yeah,
1:27:12
Oliver, you want to put the kitchen sink in?
1:27:13
Can we make it maybe a smaller thing?
1:27:16
We'll keep it in there. But.
1:27:17
It's massive. Just a just a little bit smaller
1:27:21
stone, a Skylar to distill the two source novels and Rasconi's
1:27:25
research down to a great detective story.
1:27:27
Skylar did his own research over a 12 month period and his
1:27:30
initial draft was 550 pages, a behemoth which Stone beat into
1:27:35
shape and got down with more palatable 156 pages.
1:27:38
Wow, 500 and that's I mean, that's that's Dallas, Yeah, the
1:27:43
whole. That's the wire, 1:00 to 5:00 if
1:27:49
anyone doesn't know. Like screenplay logistics, one
1:27:51
page is one minute screen time, so 550 minutes.
1:27:56
It's a long time. I mean, I would have watched it.
1:27:58
But you know how this is. I never get this.
1:28:01
You know how these things work. If you're presenting me with a
1:28:04
550 page screenplay, then I'm going to throw it out because
1:28:07
that's not a film. It's a phone book.
1:28:10
Don't. Get it?
1:28:10
It is. So during rewrites, Stone saw
1:28:14
the film as playing out like a great detective story and said
1:28:17
that while it was being written it fault and for what he calls
1:28:20
DNA threads, the New Orleans DA investigation, the day of the
1:28:24
shooting, Oswald on the day and his past activities and the
1:28:27
character of X. Yeah, I love that X gets his own
1:28:30
plot line. Skyler wrote the majority of the
1:28:35
Garrison story, while Stone took the Oswald Daily Plaza and X
1:28:39
plot lines. Right.
1:28:40
And because of the complexities of the screenplay, Stone said
1:28:43
that he simplified it to get Warner's to sign on the dotted
1:28:45
line, but then ended up filming the complex version.
1:28:49
Obviously. Sneaky Fogger.
1:28:50
Yeah, yeah, Warner says. 45 pages.
1:28:56
And with that, we have a very pointed question from a Patreon
1:28:58
supporter of all the right movies, Andrea Bastian.
1:29:01
How you doing Andrea? Hello, Andrea.
1:29:03
Andrea says. I have to ask, who do you guys
1:29:06
think killed Kennedy? You didn't have to ask Andrea
1:29:10
Cat amongst the pigeons. Yeah, Andrea wants the name of
1:29:15
the big enchilada, and we have just the man.
1:29:17
This one's for you, Westie. This is your baby.
1:29:20
Right. Well, I mean who could it be?
1:29:21
Cubans, Russians, CIA, Lyndon Johnson, it could be anybody and
1:29:25
I think that's the whole point. It's so believable for it to be
1:29:28
anybody that the fingers pointed to.
1:29:31
And I think that's what stones getting at is like the weaved
1:29:34
all of these different webs to deceive the public and to
1:29:37
deceive you as a citizen. So you don't know what happened
1:29:40
to your president basically. So they can do anything.
1:29:42
And it's it's about manipulation.
1:29:44
The conspiracy in itself is probably more revealing or more
1:29:48
exciting than knowing the truth. And I don't actually think
1:29:51
people want to know the truth. I think people like chase and
1:29:53
things and they like the excitement of the chase and I
1:29:56
think that's what it was all about.
1:29:57
But having said that, I do believe I.
1:30:00
Love it. Yes, just cut all of that out.
1:30:04
No, I don't call that out because, you know, I'm not, you
1:30:06
know, talking about, but I do love conspiracy theories.
1:30:08
I am a big, big fan of conspiracy theories.
1:30:10
We'll get into that later on. But I do think the anger the
1:30:12
military industrial establishment with the
1:30:14
procurement policies and his determination to do withdraw
1:30:18
from Vietnam and he threatened to break the CIA and I caught
1:30:21
into 1000 pieces after the Bay of Pigs fiasco.
1:30:24
So I think this was down to money.
1:30:26
I think it was down to being involved in Vietnam.
1:30:28
I think it was down through a lot of money for the defense
1:30:30
sector and a lot of worry from the CIA thinking he's going to
1:30:33
disband that. It was a coup, wasn't it?
1:30:35
So I think the one of the out of office, they wanted somebody
1:30:38
else in. They wanted to go into Vietnam.
1:30:39
They wanted to create a lot of money.
1:30:40
So that just wiped him out and got him out the picture.
1:30:42
That's what I think. I love it.
1:30:44
A coup d'etat. Coup d'etat Wonderful, if you
1:30:47
will, but that's what I think. This film and this podcast has
1:30:51
allowed me to say a coup d'etat without.
1:30:53
Sounded like a pretentious prick.
1:30:54
Obviously do. It was a coup d'etat.
1:31:00
It's wonderful. Matt Big enchilada.
1:31:03
Who do you think? Well, I agree with Wesley in the
1:31:05
fact that you almost don't want to know the answer.
1:31:07
I think if there was a definitive answer at the end
1:31:09
this film, I think you'd be a bit disappointed.
1:31:11
It would be disappointing. This is fanciful.
1:31:14
We want, like, outrageous theories.
1:31:16
Yeah. You want the frustration of not
1:31:18
someone getting like, point in the finger.
1:31:20
I'm going definitely there. For me, though, because I got in
1:31:22
this film like quite young, 1819 did like read a few books.
1:31:26
Not enough. I've tried to stick to books.
1:31:27
I weren't like sensationalistic about it.
1:31:29
I didn't believe everything. I think the most convincing one
1:31:32
I've read is that Oswald was the shooter, but he was backed by
1:31:36
the Cubans. I think there are a lot of
1:31:39
established links between Oswald and Cuba pro Castro because he
1:31:44
tried to invade on the Bay pigs and it was a revenge for that.
1:31:46
I think where the CIA come into it is kind of what Wes he's
1:31:50
getting out is that they maybe thought that this was going to
1:31:52
happen and they just turned a blind eye to it.
1:31:54
Right. OK, love it.
1:31:56
That's what I think. Yeah, I think we're we're going
1:31:58
to be pretty similar. And you know, the beauty of all
1:32:00
of this is that because the nature of the wild schools of
1:32:03
thought that anything that is proved as fact is brought into
1:32:06
question. And any conspiracy theory, no
1:32:08
matter how insane, can be considered truth.
1:32:11
It's about who you speak to, who you buy into your political
1:32:14
leanings, what you're inclined to believe.
1:32:17
I think you start with a baseline of belief based on your
1:32:19
general makeup and whatever piece of evidence taps into that
1:32:22
you'll believe and what it fits. In.
1:32:24
You'll just disregard. Yeah, exactly.
1:32:27
I think that's the same with any conspiracy.
1:32:28
If you're an easy mark, you'll just be taken on this wild ride.
1:32:31
And I mean that from any point of view, including the most
1:32:33
simple Warren report and Dawson theory.
1:32:36
But if you're pushing me, Andrea, I'll go with a
1:32:39
combination of candidates. I'm going to.
1:32:42
I'm going to throw him under the bus.
1:32:43
LBJI. Think he had hand in it.
1:32:45
OK. I think being second in command
1:32:47
at the time, waiting in the wings to take over immediately,
1:32:51
the mob maybe had something to do with it because they were
1:32:53
part of the CIA plot to overthrow Castro.
1:32:56
The CIA at the time were headed up by Allen Dulles, who was
1:32:58
instrumental in the beer pigs fiasco, so much so that Kennedy
1:33:01
fired him in 61. And then Dulles was later part
1:33:05
of the Warren Commission that Stone says suppressed CIA
1:33:07
involvement in the case. Yeah, Kennedy wanted out of
1:33:10
Vietnam, like you said, Westie, which would have lost a lot of
1:33:12
powerful people, a lot of money. So for me it's Allen Dulles, the
1:33:17
mob and LBJ. Everyone then.
1:33:20
Everyone, then, everyone. But it couldn't possibly have
1:33:25
been Oswald acting alone. The evidence of the back and to
1:33:29
the left, yeah, it's just too compelling.
1:33:32
It is, yeah. Or it probably was just Oswald
1:33:35
who acted as a long gun. Who knows?
1:33:37
I don't think so. I don't think that's been fairly
1:33:39
debunked, doesn't it? Yeah, well, I think so, but.
1:33:41
That but you never. Officially not.
1:33:44
Officially not. Yeah, it's outrageous.
1:33:47
Let's not forget as well, ladies, Ventura did confess, so
1:33:49
there is that. We have that, yeah.
1:33:53
Nothing else we have. Nothing else.
1:33:55
It was him. Great.
1:33:57
Thank you very much for the question, Andrea, what your
1:34:00
theories are. Yeah, please do.
1:34:02
So. Once again, huge props to Oliver
1:34:03
Stone and Zachary Skylar for being able to make anything even
1:34:06
remotely cohesive out of this story that always threatens to
1:34:09
spiral out of control. A magnificent piece of writing.
1:34:12
Yes. Need I say any more than the
1:34:17
music for JFK was composed by one of the biggest movie legends
1:34:20
in history, John Williams was of.
1:34:22
Course, that should speak for itself.
1:34:24
It does, massively. It does, but I am going to over
1:34:28
egg this particular pudding. Lovely.
1:34:31
Love a bit of dairy? Let's do.
1:34:34
It he takes the source material, makes it better with his music,
1:34:37
plain and simple, Does it all the time.
1:34:39
Yeah, even just in that open, entitled credit scene.
1:34:42
The music, swift change of pace from and the mournful epic of
1:34:45
the start to a jittery, paranoid rumble to a frenzied military
1:34:49
March all heightened the image on screen.
1:34:52
It tells a story where the need for visuals, if you listen to an
1:34:54
isolation, you know what's going on.
1:34:56
Yeah. Williams at the time was already
1:34:58
committed to working on Spielberg's Hook, which came out
1:35:02
around about the same time as JFK, and as such, he didn't have
1:35:05
the required time to pull out a conventional score, but was
1:35:08
compelled to take the gig as in his own words.
1:35:10
This is a very resonant subject for people of my generation, and
1:35:14
that's why I welcome the. Opportunity to participate in
1:35:16
this film. Yeah, very similar films then.
1:35:19
Yeah. Yeah, all of I've got some stuff
1:35:21
leftover from who they'll just wiping into JFK.
1:35:25
Bye. He would have been amazing as
1:35:27
well. And I think it does show, though
1:35:31
unusually for a Williams score, I can hear where his influences
1:35:34
are coming from. I might be after Mark, but
1:35:36
usually his music is one-of-a-kind, uniquely
1:35:38
Williams. But I think it checks out that
1:35:41
he didn't have much time. Tracks like, and if you look at
1:35:43
the the track list and you'll look and play them, you know,
1:35:46
Spotify or whatever, you have tracks like Garrison's obsession
1:35:49
has a rich vein of paranoia running through it, like all the
1:35:52
best conspiracy thrillers have, like David Shay's work and all
1:35:55
the presidents, man, the track the conspirators feels like it
1:35:58
owes a hell of a lot to moral Cornea's work on the
1:36:00
Untouchables combined with Bernard Herman.
1:36:05
You know, I'm not knocking the music.
1:36:06
It's incredible stuff. But maybe you can tell that he
1:36:09
he had his hands full elsewhere. Because.
1:36:11
Hulk was a massive undertaking. Yeah, Westy, your thoughts on
1:36:15
John Williams, his music? I mean, he always brings it,
1:36:17
doesn't he? Always brings the source, that
1:36:20
wonderful source that just accompanies them.
1:36:21
Visuals, hot source. And yeah, the thing that springs
1:36:24
to mind from this there was it's very unlike Williams.
1:36:26
And I see what you're saying. Look in that, you know, it
1:36:29
doesn't feel like it's got 100% Williams in this.
1:36:31
It feels like he's kind of playing guitar for a band that
1:36:34
he knows. And he's not, you know, writing
1:36:36
all the songs. He's just putting some bits in.
1:36:38
And we don't have a consistent bombastic score for JFK.
1:36:42
There's no theme. The kind of is at the start I
1:36:45
guess, but there's no like repetitive.
1:36:47
There's no more teeth. No, no, that's what he's known
1:36:51
for. I mean, the more teeth that he
1:36:53
writes at all just so memorable. But you don't really remember
1:36:56
much of the music from JFK when you've when you've left it, it's
1:36:59
not there, doesn't stick in your head.
1:37:00
I don't think that's what he wants to do.
1:37:02
I think what he wants to do is he wants to play with the themes
1:37:04
and the themes that are in the film, and he shows his range
1:37:07
here in a really short space of time.
1:37:10
You know, there's little Cuban rooms in there.
1:37:11
There's military takes, stabs, there's snare drums at the
1:37:14
start. Then there's these big, you
1:37:16
know, French horns and all that kind of work.
1:37:18
But there's not a solid theme, like I said.
1:37:20
So it is a little bit different for him.
1:37:22
It's like tracing paper, his music, it just sits over the
1:37:25
scenes. It doesn't transform them.
1:37:26
It just elevates them slightly. And that's the genius of
1:37:30
Williams. He knows when to dive in and he
1:37:31
knows when to sit back. And this is one of the films
1:37:33
that he's definitely evident. It's definitely him and he's
1:37:36
there, but he has sat back a little bit on this one.
1:37:38
Not a bad thing still, but not what I'm going to buy on vinyl
1:37:41
and play. This is not top five.
1:37:45
Matt, what about you? Do you conquer?
1:37:47
I do conquer. I always forget it's a John
1:37:49
Williams score because it doesn't really sound like 1.
1:37:51
And I think part of the reason is Storm doesn't want Williams
1:37:55
to do the job that he does for Spielberg.
1:37:57
With Spielberg, it's about the big themes, the ones that stick
1:38:00
in your head and you can whistle for days afterwards.
1:38:02
The only one Williams does like, that he is out here at the very
1:38:06
end, which is that kind of upbeat you and his Garrison
1:38:08
walks where. And I think that's there because
1:38:11
Stone obviously knows Gaston's going to lose the case, but he
1:38:13
wants to reissue the audience that he's still right and he's
1:38:16
not defeated. And that's what that tune at the
1:38:18
end gives him. But other than that, I think
1:38:20
instead of themes, I think he's asking Williams for torn and for
1:38:22
atmosphere. And that's what Williams
1:38:24
delivers. There is this really oppressive,
1:38:26
threatening field to the music. Lots of military snare drums
1:38:30
that gives the soundtrack the feel of someone being marched to
1:38:32
the death almost to an execution squad.
1:38:34
That military vibe it has. And that's obviously what Stone
1:38:36
wants. So totally agree it's not the
1:38:38
catchy soundtrack Williams has ever gone paused, but I think it
1:38:41
encompasses evidence Stone wants on screen.
1:38:43
Yeah. Oh yeah, it definitely does.
1:38:44
Yeah, I think that's a really good point about he doesn't want
1:38:47
them to Spielberg this music. Yeah.
1:38:50
And Williams put together 6 pieces of music before seeing
1:38:52
the film. He then went to Dallas to join
1:38:54
production of the film and viewed about an hour's worth of
1:38:57
dailies. He recorded some more music and
1:38:59
Stone actually edited some of the film to match that.
1:39:02
The opposite of how he usually don't.
1:39:03
Considering the dense nature of this film, I don't know how he's
1:39:08
done that, no. And the editing work as well to
1:39:10
actually cut it to a track could.
1:39:12
Yeah, exactly. Like to match the timing.
1:39:14
Yeah. And the tone and the narrative
1:39:16
flow of it. Maybe this William special work?
1:39:20
Maybe. When you put it like that.
1:39:23
Yeah, maybe it's his most understated, which is not a bad
1:39:26
thing. Yeah, so probably not considered
1:39:28
among his best work, but William certainly enhances JFK with his
1:39:32
wide range and musical style. Yeah, finally, one of the
1:39:38
greatest feats of filmmaking by DP Robert Richardson who used a
1:39:43
mind boggling array of footage including 35 mil 16 mil super,
1:39:46
88 mil video, still photos, scholar black and white.
1:39:51
Your thoughts on his work here, Westie?
1:39:53
It's mind bogglingly good in that it seems like this has got
1:39:57
about 5 DPS on it. It doesn't feel like it's one
1:40:00
guy at all and was said very similar with Once Upon a Time in
1:40:04
Hollywood, which we've just done.
1:40:05
And he was DP on that. And it felt just covering so
1:40:08
much ground and shooting in so many different ways and having
1:40:12
these just an incredible ability that he's got to turn his hand
1:40:15
to everything and make it perfect.
1:40:16
Like it makes me sick sometimes. It's just so beautifully done,
1:40:20
and he knows exactly what he's doing.
1:40:22
But he owes a lot to Oliver Stone.
1:40:25
His first big gig with Salvador, right?
1:40:27
And then he went on to do Platoon, was nominated for that.
1:40:29
But this is the first film where you get that, maybe not the
1:40:32
first film, but the one for me, that's the most apparent way you
1:40:34
get that God like light from Richardson where it's just very
1:40:37
top lit and it's all this kind of backlit tail lights.
1:40:40
And so it stands out and there's just this real power to the
1:40:43
lightning this and it feels quite theatrical and it does
1:40:46
pull you out a little bit and makes it quite fairy tale ish
1:40:49
when he wants it wants it to and make removes you from the
1:40:52
realism a little bit. And I think that's what Stone
1:40:54
was saying. He's like, look, this isn't a
1:40:55
documentary, This is a dramatization.
1:40:58
And that's what we're doing with the camera movements.
1:40:59
That's what we're doing with the lighting.
1:41:01
That's what we're doing with shooting in every single focal
1:41:03
length, just so we've got all of these things to play with.
1:41:06
And I just think of Robert Richardson when I watch these
1:41:08
films and I watch once for the Time in Hollywood, I watch
1:41:10
Platoon and the hell that shoot must have been.
1:41:12
And it's just incredible the patience this guy must have.
1:41:15
It's not doesn't overuse close up.
1:41:17
He doesn't overuse moving camera.
1:41:18
He doesn't overuse the lightning certain sequences.
1:41:21
Everything then balances out to 1/3 and 1/2 hour.
1:41:24
Beautiful, balanced square. It's just really, really nicely
1:41:27
done. Really nicely shot and perfect.
1:41:29
Yeah, I mean, second episode running, we're talking about
1:41:32
Richardson and this is one I'll just look at everything Stones
1:41:35
asking him to do. How did Richardson basically
1:41:38
just not die making this film through she exertion and
1:41:42
stressed. Like I said earlier, it's and
1:41:44
like what was he saying? It's colour but with black and
1:41:47
white flashbacks. But there's two types of black
1:41:48
and white being. You see 90% of this film is
1:41:51
people having conversations in rooms but it's got to move and
1:41:54
look like a thriller. Richardson won the Oscar for
1:41:57
this, didn't he? Yes, he did.
1:41:59
I'm amazed that his acceptance speech wasn't busy.
1:42:01
Him getting up on the podium and just lying down like.
1:42:05
Big lie down. I cannot do any more.
1:42:08
Yeah, exactly. Just spread eagle going all
1:42:11
over. I'm absolutely done.
1:42:12
I mean, what he's pulled off here is magnificent.
1:42:15
And but there's two specific things that stand out for me.
1:42:18
I mean, Wesley's talked about like the top lighting because
1:42:20
that me that's almost like a scene where someone's got a
1:42:22
spotlight in the face. Like, like interrogation scene.
1:42:26
Yeah. Yeah.
1:42:26
But because it's not directly in the face, it kind of it's in
1:42:30
these people aren't guilty. They actually on the side of
1:42:33
innocence. They've got the truth in this
1:42:34
situation, which I think is really cover.
1:42:36
And then the amount of times you see those shots where the light
1:42:38
flares and reflects and Garrison's glasses, which
1:42:41
happens a lot. And again, whether that's meant
1:42:43
to signify him being blinded to the truth or to him seeing the
1:42:46
light, I think it's a few how you take it.
1:42:48
So, but that's a brilliant little touch all the same.
1:42:51
So Richardson here, just top notch work.
1:42:54
Think what you're saying about the glasses as well as like I
1:42:56
was looked at lots of people smoking in this.
1:42:58
Yes, a lot of small. Lots of reflections in
1:43:01
Garrison's glasses. So is this just smoke and
1:43:03
mirrors? Yeah, Yeah.
1:43:04
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
1:43:05
You just think, yeah, that's wonderful.
1:43:07
And the top light as well highlights the head.
1:43:09
Kennedy was shot in the head. You're going to have to say this
1:43:11
way and think about it. It all kind of ties in it's.
1:43:13
Ridiculous. Yeah.
1:43:14
Automatically it's, I mean, it's so dense thematically, just with
1:43:18
the visuals. Just look at how complex the
1:43:20
setup of the shots for each of the each shot of this film.
1:43:24
For the daily Plaza scenes alone, Richardson used 16 mil
1:43:27
news film cameras, the Sapruda film which was 8mm where he
1:43:31
enhanced the image to 35 mil, 16 mil Super 8 formats which were
1:43:36
then combined for the recreation of the assassination. 7 cameras
1:43:39
we used along with fourteen film stocks.
1:43:44
I didn't know there were 14 film stocks.
1:43:47
Stone envisaged the visuals of the film to be as fractured as
1:43:50
the story itself, which accounts for the multiple mediums used in
1:43:53
flashbacks within flashbacks within flashbacks, within an
1:43:56
enigma, within a mystery. In Richardson, he shot the
1:44:00
footage of Lee Harvey Oswald in two different ways and this is
1:44:03
brilliant. The first was on 35mm black and
1:44:06
white on tripods and dollies, The second on 16mm black and
1:44:09
white, which was with handheld cameras.
1:44:12
The 35 represents the Warren Commission's version of events,
1:44:15
and the 16 is Garrison's version of reality.
1:44:17
They are. Just leave it there.
1:44:19
See you later, guys. Thanks for listening.
1:44:20
We've been all the right movies. You've been fantastic.
1:44:24
Bye. I I love when a film does that.
1:44:30
Yeah, there's something like that.
1:44:32
Yeah. Is just subliminal.
1:44:33
And when you see it, though, it makes perfect sense.
1:44:35
And why didn't I think that? Why doesn't everyone do that
1:44:38
then? Yeah, exactly.
1:44:39
It's the foresight to do that and the confidence to pull it
1:44:42
off. It's incredible, yeah.
1:44:44
Understanding that Garrison was a flawed individual, Richardson
1:44:47
used different light and to highlight all of Garrison's
1:44:49
facets. For example, when shooting him
1:44:51
at home in his family environment, he used a much
1:44:53
softer light and to bring on this like natural warmth,
1:44:56
Richardson said. I saw his home as the most
1:44:58
stable and least threatening element in Jim's life.
1:45:02
Amazing. Yeah, but then in contrast and
1:45:04
like the office scenes where Garrison's confrontational,
1:45:07
Richardson used a hard edge light with enhanced Blues and
1:45:09
shot at a higher level of contrast.
1:45:12
Right. But when he's talking to Clair
1:45:13
Shaw as well, and there's just the three and outside and it's
1:45:16
so shadowed in there. There's so much contrast ratio
1:45:19
so high. This was Richardson's 7th
1:45:21
collaboration of 11 with Oliver Stone.
1:45:23
He said that Stone was at the top of his game film and JFK.
1:45:26
Yeah, obviously. And he also said when I met
1:45:29
Oliver, I felt there was a magical air about him, his
1:45:32
stronger mind and spirit as I'd encountered.
1:45:34
I believed he could pull anything out of this magic hat.
1:45:36
A magician he was, or a shaman A.
1:45:39
Shaman. Yeah.
1:45:41
It shows his, like, mental state orders now.
1:45:43
He's just so chill. Something in Yoda, yeah.
1:45:47
He. Does he was.
1:45:51
So an Immaculate crew on JFK all singing off the same hymn sheet
1:45:54
to create something quite extraordinary.
1:45:57
Yeah. Absolutely 550 page hymn sheet.
1:46:03
Just to reiterate, it's 550. The end.
1:46:13
The end is drawing near. Play Show is arrested and Jim
1:46:16
Garrison's investigation is rubbished on national
1:46:18
television. It is.
1:46:20
And it's all getting a little too much for him personally and
1:46:22
professionally. Yep, starting with a fireworks
1:46:25
set an argument with Liz, his wife.
1:46:28
First off, this is a great opportunity to talk about Sissy
1:46:31
Spacek. We've discussed her quite a lot
1:46:32
over the last month or so, which is great.
1:46:34
In this role, yeah, she doesn't get to do a lot.
1:46:37
Generally, she's on the other end of Jim's arm, trying to keep
1:46:40
him from disappearing down the JFK rabbit hole.
1:46:43
She could be seen as just a nagging wife, but I think she's
1:46:46
a lot more important than that. I think she symbolizes a sense
1:46:48
of groundedness about Garrison. He's not just a conspiracy, Not
1:46:52
who's out of control. Yeah.
1:46:53
He's got a family that he's responsible for, which humanizes
1:46:56
him, makes him relatable. And it's this scene in
1:46:58
particular. Liz has just had about as much
1:47:01
as she can stand, and she's reached her end with that crank
1:47:04
call her daughter takes about the beauty pageant.
1:47:06
Yeah. And Jim dismisses this as there
1:47:08
are more important things going on in the world, like the news
1:47:11
on the TV that Martin Luther King's being killed.
1:47:13
Yeah. And this is Garrison's life
1:47:15
distilled into one scene. On paper, of course, Martin
1:47:18
Luther King's death is a billion times worse than a crank call.
1:47:21
But Liz is on the other side of the fence to Jim.
1:47:23
She's not caught up in the political machine, So what seems
1:47:25
like a threat in her daughter is worse than any news outside the
1:47:29
family. Oh yeah, and Jim's like, oh,
1:47:32
this happens all the time. But what?
1:47:33
Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
1:47:34
School to your mothers for the week.
1:47:36
Yeah, that's fine. I'll change the locks.
1:47:37
It's fine. Yeah, no probs.
1:47:38
And I think this scene presents a great argument with two
1:47:40
different points of view. Is it worth sacrificing the love
1:47:43
and safety of your family for something much bigger, but on a
1:47:46
less relatable scale? There's a great contradiction at
1:47:49
the heart of this as well. Jim tells Liz there's nothing to
1:47:52
be scared of, as the images of MLK are there for all to see on
1:47:55
screen. There definitely is something to
1:47:57
be scared of. But he's too.
1:47:59
Far through the looking glass, his eyes are open politically
1:48:02
but closed emotionally. Love it.
1:48:05
Yeah, I suppose a little very small issue that I have here,
1:48:09
and it kind of taps into what you said right at the top,
1:48:11
Westie, about Costner. I think he does it up a little
1:48:14
bit here in the moments where his voice is cracking.
1:48:16
Yeah. When he gets emotional with Liz,
1:48:19
just a little too heavy-handed. He's pushing it too far when
1:48:21
he's acting. Should be able to convey his
1:48:23
emotions without making a fake crack in his voice.
1:48:26
Yeah, again, that's why I come down to these like home life
1:48:29
scenes where I'm thinking it's just it seems a little bit
1:48:32
overplayed, that there's really serious stuff is beautifully
1:48:35
played and not overdone at all, whereas this home life stuff,
1:48:38
it's just too simple for the film.
1:48:40
Yeah, I know what you mean. Well, I'm going from Jim's
1:48:43
family life falling apart a bit to his professional life falling
1:48:46
apart a bit. Really important seeing this
1:48:48
with Bill coming up because you need a bit of balance in the
1:48:50
film. You need someone who will argue
1:48:52
against Garrison. And I feel this is Stone
1:48:54
covering his back to some degree.
1:48:56
Like, yeah, the films for what I believe, but I did give the
1:48:59
counter argument its own and it's on like Time to Breathe.
1:49:03
And it's such a stacked cast as we've been saying that sometimes
1:49:05
you have to pick individual scenes to talk about actors.
1:49:08
And I really want to talk about Michael Rocker here.
1:49:10
He deserves the spotlight because he is great in.
1:49:13
This. What I really like about his
1:49:16
performance is like, yes, Bill quits and he's forced into
1:49:18
economy by the feds to hand over his work, but I don't think he's
1:49:21
ever seen as an out and out bad guy here or a traitor.
1:49:25
He wants this case solved as much as anyone else.
1:49:27
He's not sabotaging it, but he just can't go along with the
1:49:30
theories that Jim is coming up with, which is an absolute
1:49:33
fairpoint. And I think in this scene where
1:49:35
it all blows up between them, Bill is the absolute voice of
1:49:37
sanity in the room. Because, yes, there's this huge
1:49:40
build up of evidence, but all the same, to jump to the
1:49:42
conclusions that Jim does, you need someone to recognize what a
1:49:46
flimsy case they have. You know, why would the FBI
1:49:49
cover it up? How can a conspiracy work with
1:49:52
so many people involved, which I think is the most sensible
1:49:54
question that's asked. So many key witnesses are dead
1:49:57
at this point. Nothing concrete has been put
1:50:00
forward about Clare Shaw. You know, when Bell says, chief,
1:50:03
you're going to lose, you think, yeah, he will.
1:50:06
Actually, there's nothing concrete here.
1:50:09
And Rucker, he's magnificent in that moment when Garrison
1:50:12
involves Lyndon Johnson in this and he just can't believe what
1:50:15
he's hearing. You need that moment of anger
1:50:18
from someone because it is an outrageous claim and you need
1:50:21
someone to represent. That's why I love Rooker in this
1:50:23
moment. And the fallout continues
1:50:25
because Garrison wants him back on the team, but Lew says he
1:50:28
doesn't trust him and can't work them, so he quits as well.
1:50:30
The whole thing is starting to wobble and fall apart just at
1:50:34
the pivotal moment before the trial, which works really well,
1:50:37
dramatically. But it is all about that one
1:50:39
dissenting voice going hang on. You've got to think twice about
1:50:42
this argument, chief. Some of this doesn't hang
1:50:44
together. It is.
1:50:45
It's great. It's a great counter to what
1:50:48
Stone believes. I mean, it's fleeting, but Liz
1:50:51
has a similar point of view as well.
1:50:52
Yeah, it's fleeting, but it's memorable.
1:50:54
You don't kind of dismiss this scene.
1:50:56
You do go, actually. Yeah, Bill's talking a lot of
1:50:58
sense. Yeah, Yeah, without doubt.
1:51:00
Yeah. And then that's the pendulum you
1:51:02
swing back to build on you. Yeah.
1:51:05
And talking about Bill, I think that scene perfectly sets up
1:51:07
what we'll get later on and we'll get the The Jerry Johnson
1:51:10
Show. But after that at the airport, I
1:51:11
think it's really important that we've had that scene previously
1:51:14
with Bill because then we are on the back foot I think a little
1:51:16
bit. But going back to The Jerry
1:51:18
Johnson Show, I think this is just an incredible set design.
1:51:21
It's just an incredible scene. I think it's the way they make a
1:51:24
fool out of them. And I think this is Oliver Stone
1:51:27
saying this is what the press do.
1:51:28
This is what the media do. They'll make a fool out of you,
1:51:31
make you look stupid, make your theories look stupid.
1:51:33
Even if you've got facts. We're not going to show them on
1:51:35
the television. We'll see the photographs nor
1:51:37
the camera pick that up, nor won't.
1:51:39
We've got liability. We've got this, we've got that.
1:51:40
You know, let's keep it light, let's keep it cool.
1:51:42
Let's you know, let's keep it entertaining.
1:51:44
Let's keep it zesty. And you know what?
1:51:46
You want to show them a ballad and all they want to pop song.
1:51:49
You know, you've got to keep an entertainer for the audience and
1:51:50
they don't want to hear the truth.
1:51:52
In the amount of times the Garrison says a free thinking
1:51:54
country, a free thinking world in the in the closing speech.
1:51:58
I think that's what this scenes about and that he's not allowed
1:52:00
to say what he wants. He's not allowed any free
1:52:02
speech. It doesn't exist, especially
1:52:05
through channels and especially on the television, especially
1:52:07
through the media. And then when he gets to the
1:52:08
airport and he says Bill again, Bill does warn him that, you
1:52:12
know, you're going to be killed. Don't know if that's part of it
1:52:15
all or whether he's going to talk him out of it and Gareth is
1:52:17
going to listen to him. But again, he's I don't want any
1:52:20
crackpot theory. There's no threat to Jim at any
1:52:23
point until now. And I think we need this point
1:52:26
in the film to say that he is actually could be a target.
1:52:29
He could be taken out at some point and we'll get to the end
1:52:31
of the film and you start to think, I mean, especially in 91,
1:52:33
you're in the cinema, right? You think it's just the end now
1:52:36
what's going to happen to him and that great build attention
1:52:38
when he's in the bathroom and you know, there's the shoes
1:52:40
outside that cuts to that cuts back to him.
1:52:43
We don't actually know what was going to happen to him.
1:52:44
That is a conspiracy in itself. He's going to be kidnapped.
1:52:47
Was he going to be killed? Was he going to be taken into
1:52:49
custody? Was something else going to
1:52:50
happen? Was he going to be tortured?
1:52:51
Was we don't know. But it's the element of threat
1:52:54
and the distrust that we now have in Bill and that look, when
1:52:57
he's reading the magazine, he just looks over to him.
1:52:59
Yeah, Really brilliantly played out.
1:53:01
I mean, these two sections, these and the section that Matt
1:53:04
talked about, they're 3 short films, just one after the other.
1:53:07
Yeah. They are absolutely amazing.
1:53:10
And those two things that you're talking about there, they were
1:53:11
absent from the original theatrical cut of the film.
1:53:14
They were Ronnie inserted in the director's cut.
1:53:16
Jerry Johnson in the airport. I think they're absolutely
1:53:18
necessary. Yeah, and that's John
1:53:20
Larroquette, who plays Jerry Johnson.
1:53:22
He's great. Yeah, he's great.
1:53:24
Who does the voice over open and crawl narration for Texas
1:53:28
Chainsaw Massacre? Yes, yes.
1:53:29
Yep. Magnet appeared in the joint.
1:53:32
Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
1:53:36
So Jim is now a public figure, making his position all the more
1:53:39
dangerous. Yep.
1:53:43
Haven't been betrayed by Bill. Jim has plunged deeper into
1:53:46
despair as news comes through of Bobby Kennedy's assassination.
1:53:49
Clay's show has finally brought to trial, and what follows is an
1:53:52
incredible feat of filmmaking. And Matt's starting us off with
1:53:56
the right Tata, but the wrong ho ho that's.
1:54:00
Right. That's me all over.
1:54:02
I mean, this whole trial section is just directed with such
1:54:06
confidence because Stone has this big fat book of evidence
1:54:12
and every single bit of it is laid out for all the scene.
1:54:15
The thing is, it doesn't start well.
1:54:17
The judge won't let the cop testify about Clay Shaw in front
1:54:20
of the jury, which is ridiculous.
1:54:22
There's that really weird guy on the standards who's been
1:54:25
fingerprinting his daughter, who's been called as a key
1:54:27
witness, but everything else is stolen, threatened together.
1:54:31
Everything he's shown us and tell us that everything he's
1:54:34
shown us has been important. The hobos at the start, that's
1:54:38
why they're important. The guy opening the umbrella who
1:54:41
we see for a few seconds, that's why he's important.
1:54:44
And then you get to the two most important and interlink pieces
1:54:47
of evidence Garrison has. And even for recreation that's
1:54:51
approved of, footage of JFK never ceases to be shocking.
1:54:55
It's so savage and brutal, and it's the most quartable part of
1:54:59
the film, obviously. Back and to the left.
1:55:01
To the left back zoom. To the left.
1:55:03
Zoom. Zoom, zoom.
1:55:05
And the reason you have that repetition is because this is
1:55:07
Stone saying look how simple this case is.
1:55:11
That simple physical motion is all you need to know to question
1:55:14
where is Oswald shooting from because he's shooting from
1:55:17
behind, but the head is going back and to the left.
1:55:20
That should be all evidence anyone needs and should be open
1:55:23
and shut. And just in case that doesn't
1:55:25
convince you, yeah, then I've probably the most famous part of
1:55:28
the film, which is certainly the most parodied, which is the
1:55:31
demonstration of the magic bullet and how unlikely it is.
1:55:34
And yes, a lot of things have been said about Storm
1:55:36
misrepresenting exactly how they were sitting in that car, how
1:55:39
he's interpreted certain movements or reactions by
1:55:41
Connolly in the video. But all we can talk about is how
1:55:44
Storm presents the evidence here, and the evidence is
1:55:47
ridiculously convincing. The description of the path of a
1:55:50
bullet has never been as compelling as this.
1:55:53
For it to take that path, to do all that damage to all the
1:55:56
different people, to hang in mid air, it just takes you back to
1:55:59
that scene was centered along right at the start.
1:56:01
That dog don't hunt. Yeah, and you completely agree
1:56:04
when you see what he means. And it is seemingly piece after
1:56:07
piece after piece of damning evidence laid out for everyone
1:56:09
to see, particularly with that amazing model set he's had built
1:56:12
in the Plaza. Wonderful, isn't it?
1:56:14
It's like. Incredible.
1:56:15
I'd love to play with that. That looks amazing play.
1:56:17
With it, yeah, would. Just move everyone about, put
1:56:21
people up on the grass, you know?
1:56:22
I'm sorry it's not escaping, I haven't painted it.
1:56:29
It's fine, it's fine, but you get to the end of this and you
1:56:34
think where did this all start? This all started outside Guy
1:56:37
Banister's office. Go on this location is a bit
1:56:40
strange for Oswald to be hanging about in isn't it?
1:56:42
And you've ended up here. And I think it's tribute to
1:56:45
Stones powers of persuasion and storytelling in the conviction
1:56:49
and customers performs because he's so fired up by this point
1:56:52
that you think, how can anyone not think this is true?
1:56:56
And what makes me laugh is the bit that sounds the most
1:56:57
ludicrous of all, the bit where you are.
1:56:59
Come on, Oliver. That's a bit too much.
1:57:01
The president's brain is missing.
1:57:03
That's true. Yeah.
1:57:04
It was lost and they've never found it.
1:57:06
Yeah, it's unbelievable. Yeah.
1:57:09
So if that's true. Yeah, exactly.
1:57:11
Everything could be. That's the most ridiculous
1:57:13
thing, and that's definitely true.
1:57:14
Well, everything's true of them. Yeah, exactly.
1:57:17
I mean, this is Oliver Stone's day in the dock, isn't it?
1:57:19
Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
1:57:21
And the magic bullet theory is a popular one, but one which has
1:57:24
also been debunked. The film argues that it hit the
1:57:27
back of Kennedy's jacket and changed direction, exit and his
1:57:30
throat. Yeah, yeah.
1:57:31
But it's been proved, allegedly that his jacket was hitched up
1:57:34
above his shoulders. Yeah, yeah.
1:57:36
A few seconds prior to the bullet hitting, making it more
1:57:38
unbelievable that it was on a natural trajectory.
1:57:41
Right. And then if that's true, then it
1:57:43
calls into question everything else in the argument.
1:57:45
But then if you want to believe that, you can.
1:57:47
If you don't, you don't have to. Yeah.
1:57:49
And who's telling you this truth?
1:57:51
Yeah, who's debunked it? Yeah, exactly.
1:57:54
And what are their motivations and whether they lean left or
1:57:57
right and, you know, everything? Yeah, and after this compelling
1:58:02
evidence, Garrison goes into his account of Oswald's whereabouts
1:58:05
at the time of the shooting. And again, so convincing.
1:58:09
Storm presenting his side of the argument so clearly and
1:58:11
thrillingly. Garrison reinforcing the myriad
1:58:14
of witnesses and potential suspects that are completely
1:58:17
brushed under the carpet. Who could have provided a better
1:58:20
explanation than this horseshit that they have on Oswald?
1:58:23
The people dressed as hobos, The people imitating the Secret
1:58:26
Service agents. And this is for me is is the
1:58:28
zenith of Oliver Stone's filmmaking talents as he
1:58:30
reconstructs footage of Oswald's movement, footage which is
1:58:33
seamlessly edited in with archival footage.
1:58:36
A heavy mixture of everything that has elevated the film so
1:58:39
far, editing, cinematography, acting, direct and writing.
1:58:42
Even shows an alleged real time Oswald firing off three shots
1:58:46
then stashing the gun. And that real time thing is so
1:58:48
powerful. How could he possibly squeezed
1:58:51
off three shots with such accuracy in that time and then
1:58:54
make it back down to the second floor?
1:58:56
Why did he stick around to get a cork and then leave fire a more
1:59:00
obvious exit for the police. And then footage takes us back
1:59:04
to his home. Oswald plugging away at a cop,
1:59:06
then at the Texas Theatre before being plugged by Jack Ruby.
1:59:10
And at each step it becomes more and more apparent than Oswald is
1:59:13
a Patsy. He's a set up take the fall for
1:59:16
some unknown sinister plot. And it's a really tragic tale.
1:59:19
Company with Williams of stir and music as he goes down in
1:59:23
slow mall in a maze of black and white footage.
1:59:26
Yeah. And it all feels like
1:59:28
documentary. All narrated by the trustworthy
1:59:30
voice of Kevin Costner. Yeah.
1:59:32
We're not watching a film. This is a documentary now.
1:59:35
Yeah. Stone knows how to manipulate or
1:59:37
feel a certain way and getting you on his wavelength.
1:59:39
A lot of it's bogus, of course, but it all feels real.
1:59:42
And I think that's key. It's the feeling that Stone has
1:59:44
grabbed a hold of you with and now he's got you so we could
1:59:47
tell you anything. You believe it?
1:59:49
Yeah, yeah. It's like the bit where you see
1:59:52
Oswald, like running down the stairs and then he says, but
1:59:54
he's not out of breath and you see him stop and compose
1:59:56
himself. Just moments like that are so
1:59:58
brilliantly done. It's beautiful.
2:00:00
Yeah. Oh, right.
2:00:02
OK, we've got ourselves to the end point and Westie, the main
2:00:06
man, is going to take us through the closing arguments.
2:00:09
OK, well, big prayers. I mean, this is the moment that
2:00:12
sticks with you. The fact that cost now
2:00:14
remembered all of this, the whole thing, in fact, you know,
2:00:18
and just rattled it off. I mean, I put an excerpt from
2:00:20
the screenplay in the group like yesterday, day before.
2:00:24
I was like, imagine reading that and going, yeah, I can do that
2:00:26
no problem. Unbelievable.
2:00:28
I couldn't remember where I left me slippers yesterday.
2:00:30
Nevermind like this huge list of these facts that he needs to get
2:00:35
right, the names he needs to get right and it's amazing from
2:00:39
Costa. This final argument is clause
2:00:42
and statement his absolute full stop.
2:00:45
He's got nothing else to say after this.
2:00:47
Nothing else is more important and that's what he says to the
2:00:50
jury. There's nothing more important
2:00:52
than this. It's about your kids.
2:00:53
It's about generations. It's about it's going to be
2:00:55
passed down. It's one day somebody's going to
2:00:58
know the truth wand, even if it's not today, one day this is
2:01:01
this is absolutely going to happen.
2:01:03
And it's that conviction from the character.
2:01:06
It's everything we've been building up towards.
2:01:08
It's everything we've wanted him to say and he's just exploding.
2:01:13
But us as the audience, if we are in that jury, we'll just be
2:01:17
like, stop, Yep, guilty. That's enough, right?
2:01:20
You're fine. Because we've been on the
2:01:21
journey with them. And it's him trying to relay
2:01:24
this journey to people who don't understand the depths of it and
2:01:27
don't understand what he's been through as a person and as a
2:01:30
professional and as somebody who's really trying to fix this
2:01:34
problem and the problem that he addresses it.
2:01:36
It's not about Kennedy. It's not necessarily about who
2:01:40
killed who or what or why or where or when or what.
2:01:43
It doesn't matter. It's about freedom of speech.
2:01:46
It's about not being lied to. It's about not being
2:01:48
manipulated. It's about being trapped like a
2:01:50
fucking human being and not being trapped like a piece of
2:01:53
cattle that you can just shove off to war and let the rich
2:01:56
people get the money for it. And all the poor kids are going
2:01:58
to die in Vietnam. And this is what all of us doing
2:02:00
is putting into these final closing arguments, is that
2:02:03
America is a great country. And if it's not the great
2:02:06
country that it thinks it is, it's a great country because it
2:02:08
should be. And it should be loyal and it
2:02:10
should be trustworthy and it should be doing everything to
2:02:12
the letter. And the first people that should
2:02:14
be buying that or benefiting from that are the citizens of
2:02:18
that country. And they're not, they're the
2:02:19
ones being lied to. They're the ones being
2:02:21
manipulated. They're the ones going to war
2:02:23
for the wealthy, and they're the ones who are dying for the some
2:02:25
money and for the sake of it, the need, the truth.
2:02:29
That's the passion that you get from this closing statement.
2:02:32
The jury doesn't buy it, but we do as an audience.
2:02:35
And that's that final shot where he turns to the camera and he
2:02:38
just says it's up to you. Yeah.
2:02:40
That's up to you now. Yeah.
2:02:42
And I think what all of us don't want to do with this film, Yes,
2:02:44
it's historically inaccurate. Yes.
2:02:46
It's lies upon lies. Yes, but they've lied.
2:02:48
There was a way lying back. And all he wants you to do is
2:02:52
think it's freedom of speech and freedom of thought.
2:02:55
It's not about being a conspiracy theorist.
2:02:57
It's about, you know, looking at how you being threat and maybe
2:03:00
just think about it for a second because you might just be
2:03:02
getting fucked over. Just think about that.
2:03:05
And it is influenced every single courtroom drama since
2:03:08
this film came out. Every single Primal Fear, Few
2:03:12
Good Men, Time to Kill Sleepers, everything so well done.
2:03:17
It could just be a courtroom drama, but the whole film is so
2:03:20
much more. And this is just the cherry on
2:03:22
the cake. That's how with this film is.
2:03:24
I think Stone, you know, he's well known that he's very much
2:03:27
anti establishment and that's reinforced with this film.
2:03:30
Yeah, I think he's just challenging the status quo and
2:03:32
the facts accepted by the government.
2:03:34
When we get to this final scene, the audience are the jewelry
2:03:37
like we are the. Jewelry.
2:03:39
Jewelry, yeah. And he's presented such a
2:03:41
compelling narrative that will swallow anything.
2:03:43
There are wild swings of fact and fiction, conspiracy
2:03:46
theories, things that are just playing lies, but it puts a seed
2:03:49
of doubt in your mind. And I think ultimately that's
2:03:51
what Storm wanted to do, Make an incredible film.
2:03:54
One that challenges the ideology of popular belief or belief laid
2:03:58
down by the above, challenging the establishment ruffle and
2:04:01
feathers, making people stand up and take notice.
2:04:03
Yeah, I think he's saying if you're going to question my
2:04:06
story, that's fine, but are you going to question their story
2:04:08
with the same absolutely strength?
2:04:10
Literal. And if you're not, why not?
2:04:13
Exactly. In that moment, that amazing
2:04:15
moment when Gaussen chokes up to you in his closing arguments,
2:04:18
that wasn't scripted. This was costing it, genuinely
2:04:20
fighting back the tears when the emotional weight of his
2:04:22
monologue dawned on him. That's.
2:04:24
Incredible. Wow.
2:04:26
Oh, what a monologue. And it brings with that our
2:04:28
third Patreon question. This one is from Simon Hughes.
2:04:31
Hello, Simon. Hello, Simon.
2:04:33
Simon Says customers close an argument.
2:04:35
Does any of the monologue in content or delivery compared to
2:04:38
this? Matt, what do you think?
2:04:42
Obviously there's lots of amazing ones for a whole variety
2:04:44
of reasons. Marlon Brando on the back of the
2:04:47
cab on the waterfront. That's heartbreak.
2:04:49
Oh yeah. Yeah.
2:04:50
Christopher Walken talking about the watch in Pulp Fiction.
2:04:52
That's hilarious. Brilliant.
2:04:54
Possess that's. Glad watch, but this one it's
2:04:59
the sheer length of the monologue there's.
2:05:01
I mean, there's a few references to Shakespeare do in the film,
2:05:04
but this monologue is Shakespearean.
2:05:07
It's like watching Brandon do to be or not to be from Hamlet.
2:05:10
But it is also the importance of it.
2:05:12
You know, there's nothing more important than arguing there's a
2:05:15
conspiracy to murder the president of the United States.
2:05:19
I think the only one that comes close is Quint talking about the
2:05:22
Indianapolis and Jaws, which again, is fairly different.
2:05:24
But honestly, I think this one takes it because of the
2:05:27
importance of it. How Stone shoots it, the mileage
2:05:29
he gets out of it. Visually, it's amazing.
2:05:33
You know, I'd say there are a number of elements in this film,
2:05:35
and I have been talking about them which are being close to
2:05:38
unrivalled in movie history and know that I'm not.
2:05:41
And that's not hyperbole. I really believe that.
2:05:43
Yeah, I mean, it's fact. And this scene with Costner is
2:05:47
one of them. It's simply and stuff.
2:05:49
To have a film with this kind of dialogue is a golden goose, the
2:05:53
eye of the duck, as David Lynch would say.
2:05:56
Yes. Yes, very much.
2:05:57
Yeah, Yeah. But it's not the first epic
2:05:59
monologue in this film. Sutherland has got one earlier
2:06:01
that's just as incredible. Yeah, good point.
2:06:05
Yeah. Probably both unrivaled but
2:06:08
outside of JFKI. Thought of a few of them.
2:06:10
I did think of Jaws and Pulp Fiction, but Robin Williams is
2:06:15
your move, Chief. Yes.
2:06:16
Beautiful. Beautiful.
2:06:17
I'm going to throw in TLJ and hear his speech at the end of No
2:06:21
Country Hunt and stuff. Oh yes.
2:06:24
And I really, really love Do the Right Thing.
2:06:27
And the sooner we talk about that, the better.
2:06:30
But. Really.
2:06:31
Or Raheem's love and hate monologue all in one take break
2:06:36
in the 4th wall scored by a Public Enemy.
2:06:39
It's amazing. Yeah.
2:06:40
Unreal. Love it.
2:06:41
Yeah. Yeah.
2:06:42
What about USCI? Had a few there.
2:06:43
I had definitely had Jaws and I had Google hunting as well.
2:06:46
Nice. But I would say the tears and
2:06:48
rain speech from Blade Runner. Oh yeah, it's absolutely
2:06:51
fantastic. And you've got no standard
2:06:53
innovation. Round of applause for that.
2:06:55
Any Given Sunday, another of us own film inches.
2:06:58
Yeah. Inches.
2:07:01
That's incredible. Even if you've not seen the
2:07:03
film, you just watch that and you are just absolutely
2:07:05
motivated. It's an incredible, incredible
2:07:07
script. Brilliant.
2:07:09
But the one that stuck out with me as soon as I thought about
2:07:11
it, the great Dictator Chaplain speech in that.
2:07:15
Yeah, I think that was that's. Just one.
2:07:17
Yeah, it's just, it's a game changer, an absolute game
2:07:22
changer because it's straight to camera and absolute honesty.
2:07:26
And it breaks down what cinema was and how it connects to its
2:07:28
audience. And I think there's, there was a
2:07:30
lot of that gone into this. And I think that's that's where
2:07:32
he's got a lot of influence from as well.
2:07:34
And I think that's that's an incredible piece of work.
2:07:36
Magic. Thank you very much for the
2:07:38
question, Simon. Yes, thank you, Simon.
2:07:40
And whether you prefer any of those or one of your own over
2:07:43
Costner's closing arguments, there's no denying the power of
2:07:46
the performance here. And although Garrison lost, it
2:07:49
released a lot of information in the public domain and challenged
2:07:52
the establishment. And I'm sure that exactly what's
2:07:55
Oliver Stone wanted for his film as well.
2:07:57
That was his intention. He did.
2:08:01
Reception and awards. For a film of this magnitude,
2:08:06
JFK went through production very swiftly.
2:08:09
There were a couple of months prep, three months for the
2:08:11
shoot, and only three months in the cutting room.
2:08:14
Considering the task at hand, it's a minor miracle Stone
2:08:18
rushed it through without test screenings to avoid negative
2:08:20
feedback, creating notes from the studio asking for reshoots.
2:08:25
Obviously, yeah, Stones original cut of JFK ran at 4 1/2 hours,
2:08:31
he said. There was a lot of clear shore
2:08:32
footage that was removed, along with a fantasy sequence of
2:08:35
Oswald looking at the camera protesting his innocence, and I
2:08:38
think that's what that'd be. The the original Cook came in at
2:08:44
3 hours 8 minutes despite it being in his contract to be 3
2:08:47
hours or under. And the director's cut came out
2:08:49
a few years later, clocking in at a whopping 3 hours and 25
2:08:52
minutes. So we mentioned the two scenes
2:08:54
at the talk show and at the airport, which we re inserted.
2:08:57
And the rest of the extra footage is additional moments of
2:08:59
dialogue, which are just added to scenes already in the
2:09:02
theatrical cut. Yes, that's right.
2:09:04
Yeah, well before that. Months before the film actually
2:09:07
came out, it faced a huge backlash.
2:09:11
The first moment of discontent came from George Will of the
2:09:13
Washington Post, based on a leaked copy of the first draft
2:09:17
of the screenplay. He claimed that the movie was a
2:09:19
three hour lie and said that Stone may be an intellectual
2:09:23
sociopath. True, that's a fair cop.
2:09:27
It's fine, he's admitted that. The Post later ran a story
2:09:32
called Onset Dallas in Wonderland, how Oliver Stone's
2:09:36
version of Kennedy assassination exploits the edge of paranoia.
2:09:40
Dallas in Wonderland. That's genius.
2:09:42
That gives you that. I love you.
2:09:44
Yeah. Almost as good as Garrison Ford.
2:09:47
So praise, no praise. Obviously don't get anywhere
2:09:50
else. Do it.
2:09:54
Newsweek cover story. Read why Oliver Stones new movie
2:09:56
can't be trusted and chief exec of the MPAA Jack Valenti
2:10:00
compared JFK to the Nazi propaganda film Triumph of the
2:10:04
Will. Wow, wow.
2:10:06
See where he's? Strong views.
2:10:08
So upon release, it was healed by mainstream media as the most
2:10:11
dangerous movie in America. I mean, that would just make me
2:10:14
want to say it all the more. Let's.
2:10:16
Go 3 hours. Absolutely.
2:10:17
Get it in there. It's.
2:10:18
Banned like Texas trade. So yeah, exactly.
2:10:21
Oh please. And it wasn't just media outlets
2:10:24
who were outraged by what the source their irresponsibility of
2:10:26
spreading and normalizing misinformation.
2:10:29
The government went sense with their betrayal, a secret of
2:10:31
murderers involved in nefarious plots, including defectors in
2:10:34
the mafia. And Stone was also targeted by
2:10:37
historians only interested in facts.
2:10:39
Just rude to be honest and like minded conspiracy theories.
2:10:43
And they were frustrated because they didn't have the kind of
2:10:46
platforms Stone did to spout their views.
2:10:48
Getting it from all angles, Stone said.
2:10:51
It was a hot potato from the get go, much hotter than I thought.
2:10:54
I didn't realize it would hit the central nerve core of the
2:10:57
establishment. That's what you want.
2:10:59
Yeah, because he did. Because he did.
2:11:01
And when it opened in December 1991, there was a muted audience
2:11:04
response to JFK and its opening week.
2:11:07
It ended up at the disappointing 5th on the box office charts and
2:11:10
was at the way to becoming a flop.
2:11:12
Yes, but in the weeks that followed, which included a $15
2:11:15
million ad campaign, JFK built up a huge amount of momentum and
2:11:19
wound up earning a whopping $200 million at the box office, which
2:11:22
made it a sixth highest grossing film of the year.
2:11:25
Wow. I mean from rising from the
2:11:27
ashes there. Yeah.
2:11:28
For a three hour plus period piece this dense, yeah, DMA, but
2:11:33
I suppose there's no such thing as bad press.
2:11:35
No, definitely well when you got 15,000,000 inject. 15 I mean
2:11:39
we'd be, we'd earn 200 mill if we were given the 15 mill
2:11:42
marketing campaign. Absolutely.
2:11:45
If we were the most dangerous part in America, I think we are.
2:11:50
We are. We are with this episode, yes.
2:11:52
We are. They're going to come after us.
2:11:53
After JFK came out Paul Short that 80% of the American public
2:11:57
believed that there was a conspiracy behind JFK's death,
2:12:00
which was up 10% from a similar poll conducted in the late 70s.
2:12:04
Right. See, it was always there.
2:12:06
It was always there. It was always there.
2:12:08
It was polarizing with critics upon release.
2:12:10
A lot focused on the spread of misinformation, The New York
2:12:13
Times said. At what point does a studio
2:12:15
exercise its leverage and blunt the highly charged message of a
2:12:19
filmmaker like Oliver Stone? Never.
2:12:22
Never. Don't do it.
2:12:22
Not at all. However, there were critics who
2:12:25
loved the film, but that was also highly controversial.
2:12:28
Richard Callas in Time magazine said whatever one suspicions
2:12:31
about its use or abuse of the evidence, JFK is a knockout.
2:12:35
Yeah, part history book, part comic book, the movie rushes
2:12:38
toward judgment for three breathless hours, lasso in facts
2:12:41
and factoids by the thousands, then bundling them together into
2:12:45
an incendiary device that would frag any viewers.
2:12:47
Complacency, indeed. And what of our man Ebert Fellas
2:12:52
out of four? He'd give it full, didn't he?
2:12:54
Because he got some shit for it, I think.
2:12:56
Yeah, I think he's all in on this.
2:12:57
He'd love. It.
2:12:59
Yes, yes, four of the best 4/4, he said.
2:13:03
Oliver Stone was born to make this movie.
2:13:05
He's a filmmaker of feverish energy and limitless technical
2:13:08
skill, able to assemble a bewilder an array of facts and
2:13:11
fancies and compose them into a film without getting bogged
2:13:14
down. Yeah, even the critics suffered
2:13:16
a backlash to the film as well. Though the Washingtonian movie
2:13:20
critic Pat Dowell loved the film but had her mini review of it
2:13:23
rejected because of the positivity she portrayed, she
2:13:26
resigned in protest. Wow for her.
2:13:29
Yeah, and as you said, Westie Ebert later told a story about
2:13:32
TV legend Walter Cronkite, given him a dressing down because of
2:13:35
the positive review the film picked up.
2:13:38
Madness. Unbelievable nerve.
2:13:40
Very much at the Oscars. It was a big night for Silence
2:13:43
of the Lambs, obviously so. JFK face stiff competition in
2:13:47
the categories it was nominated for, which were Best Picture,
2:13:50
Director, Adapted Screenplay, supporting actor Tommy Lee
2:13:52
Jones, Score and sound. It did, however, pick up two
2:13:56
awards that we've already mentioned.
2:13:57
Best Editing, Best Cinematography.
2:14:00
I mean, those got to be two of the most deserved awards.
2:14:03
Editing and shooting this. Yeah, forget about.
2:14:07
That's of the way you said, Tommy Lee Jones.
2:14:09
There you go. Tay Burton.
2:14:14
Best support? Charlie Jones It also got
2:14:20
similar recognition at the Golden Globes, where it was
2:14:22
nominated for Best Motion Picture, Best Actor Kevin
2:14:24
Costner and Best Screenplay. Do that on every single episode
2:14:29
now. Yeah.
2:14:32
Love it. The Storm one best director of
2:14:34
the Golden Globes and in his acceptance speech he said a
2:14:37
terrible I was told it was 28 years ago.
2:14:39
I hope that this film could be the first step in righting that
2:14:42
wrong by telling around 32 other lies.
2:14:47
But better lies, yeah? It received a similar number of
2:14:50
nominations to the Baftas, and one for best edit and a best
2:14:53
sound as well. Yeah.
2:14:54
So a response rarely seen going beyond the confines of the world
2:14:57
of cinema and in the public consciousness.
2:15:00
The fact that it was Oliver Stone's most successful film
2:15:02
that the box office is almost unfathomable, with some very
2:15:05
positive reviews and awards recognition thrown in for good
2:15:08
measure and unexpected success story.
2:15:11
Yeah. Possibly sequels and influence.
2:15:19
There are no sequels to JFK as such.
2:15:21
There were a number of publications and documentaries
2:15:23
in the wake of the film. Isle of a Stone himself directed
2:15:26
two key documentaries on the subject.
2:15:28
JFK Revisited through the Looking Glass A2 hour
2:15:31
documentary from 2021, reinforces theories introduced
2:15:34
in the film, backed up by new interviews and evidence, none of
2:15:38
which is that credible. Laser beam.
2:15:41
Laser beam. And he also directed JFK Destiny
2:15:51
Betrayed, a four part documentary released around the
2:15:54
same time that goes into detail about the circumstances and
2:15:57
political events leading up to the assassination and in the
2:15:59
aftermath. That one is well worth a watch.
2:16:02
OK. Nice.
2:16:04
But what of the film's legacy and influence?
2:16:06
Westie, Where have you seen that in the last 30 odd years?
2:16:09
Well, I mean, I've said when we're talking about the the
2:16:12
closing speech there, I mean, it's every courtroom drama
2:16:14
that's all evident in there. But I think if you're looking at
2:16:17
something that's going to maybe address some kind of truth that
2:16:19
was swept away, I think Zero Dark 30 owes a lot to this.
2:16:23
The open and the Zero Dark 30 is very, very similar.
2:16:27
The ones that were very similar and ones that remind me very
2:16:31
much so In the Line of Fire, I think wouldn't exist if it
2:16:34
wasn't for this. Malcolm X came out the year
2:16:36
after Incredible, and I think that has a lot to do with it.
2:16:39
Even films like Milk, I think it has a lot to do with JFK and
2:16:43
then Eleven, 2263, Stephen King. I think I love that.
2:16:47
Book and the. Series, the series is brilliant.
2:16:50
Watch that as well. So that was really good, but I
2:16:52
think just a different kind of take on that guy goes back in
2:16:55
time and can prevent the murder. Stephen King at his best for me.
2:16:59
Yeah. Well, he's recent best anyway.
2:17:02
It's fantastic. Yeah.
2:17:03
And what about you, Matt? Legacy and influence.
2:17:06
Influence a big one on TV? The X-Files.
2:17:09
I think without doubt Chris Carter, creator of The X-Files.
2:17:11
He obviously watched this and thought what if they were
2:17:14
talking about aliens though instead of an assassination.
2:17:18
In terms of cinema, I'd be fascinated he offended his
2:17:20
thoughts on this because this feels like it's a clear
2:17:23
influence on Zodiac, going down the rabbit hole of graspiracies,
2:17:27
identifying people as being involved, laying out the
2:17:30
evidence bit by bit by bit in the really compelling manner.
2:17:33
And then legacy. I look at Oliver Stone himself
2:17:36
and I think if you look at the rest of his filmography after
2:17:38
this, it feels like this took so much out of him.
2:17:41
I don't think he ever quite recovered.
2:17:43
I mean, there's flashes of greatness after this and he
2:17:46
given Sunday Nixon's worth a watch.
2:17:49
Not Robot Killers are certainly interesting, but nothing on the
2:17:51
level of what he achieved here. Or before that either.
2:17:55
Well, yeah. Platoon, Wall Street on the 4th
2:17:58
of July, those are all incredible films.
2:18:00
I don't think he hit those milestones after this.
2:18:02
He's made the ultimate Oliver Stone film.
2:18:05
Yeah. So where else could he go?
2:18:06
And that's its legacy for me to the ultimate Oliver Stone film.
2:18:10
Yeah, I agree with a lot of what you fellas have said.
2:18:12
Zodiac for certain. The way that film presents its
2:18:15
evidence. Also a lot to JFK.
2:18:17
Not as in your face as JFK, of course, but also not forget what
2:18:21
you said in the line of Fire, Dick Donna's conspiracy theory.
2:18:25
There are loads of examples. Conspiracy theory.
2:18:27
Mel Gibson actually been in that one.
2:18:29
Yes, exactly. That's right.
2:18:30
Yeah, It's been parodied in the likes of Seinfeld.
2:18:34
It was solely responsible for a resurgence in huge public
2:18:37
interest in the case, bringing it back into public
2:18:40
consciousness. Countless documentaries and
2:18:41
books have been made as a result.
2:18:43
Stone's film made the subject of bankable piece of IP, and I
2:18:47
don't think that Stone could have ever predicted the
2:18:49
intensity of the interest in the film and subject.
2:18:51
But I'm certainly was thrilled in one way with the scrutiny as
2:18:54
it challenged the governmental position on the assassination,
2:18:57
something that I believe was his ultimate goal.
2:19:00
Oh yeah, yeah, definitely was. When the scrutiny of the film
2:19:02
was at fever pitch, Warner spearheaded the campaign to free
2:19:05
the files, urging Congress to release classified files on the
2:19:09
assassination, which weren't planned to be made publicly
2:19:11
available until 2029. And this was done to take away a
2:19:15
slight focus from the film. And it ultimately led to the
2:19:18
passing of the John F Kennedy Assassination Records Collection
2:19:21
Act. And this led to the release of
2:19:23
millions of previously classified documents held on the
2:19:25
assassination, either directly or indirectly.
2:19:28
In, Stone asserted that the material was under lock and key
2:19:31
because there was something to hide.
2:19:32
I mean, you talk about legacy and influence, Yeah.
2:19:35
Wow. Yeah, it was also agreed that
2:19:39
all the files will be declassified by 2017, something
2:19:42
with Trump delayed by three years due to national security
2:19:45
campaigns. Biden got the ball rolling
2:19:47
again, and in March 2025, Trump ordered the declassification of
2:19:51
10s of thousands of pages, most of which revealed very little.
2:19:54
Although Trump did weighed in. He said that he'd always agreed
2:19:57
that Oswald shut JFK. So was he helped?
2:20:00
Guess we all want to know that. Thanks, Donald.
2:20:02
And you? Know that's the power of cinema.
2:20:06
This is possibly the single most famous moment in 20th century
2:20:09
history, and Oliver Stone has embedded it in public
2:20:11
consciousness even further with his film.
2:20:13
Yeah, what a legacy. That's unbelievable.
2:20:19
All the right movies ranking. The closing arguments before the
2:20:24
final verdict is delivered. Matt summary and score for JFK,
2:20:28
what do you got? He's got a 16 minute model, 1616
2:20:31
minute. Yeah, coming up, breaking the
2:20:33
4th wall. Get on that part, bench boys.
2:20:37
There, take some notes. You won't believe he was behind
2:20:39
all this it. Was John, isn't it?
2:20:42
It was John, Yeah. This one, I mean, there's no
2:20:47
need to elaborate too much, I've said it all already.
2:20:50
It's just an absolute masterpiece. 3 1/2 hours has
2:20:53
never gone by so quickly. Agreed.
2:20:55
And somehow we've covered it all.
2:20:58
I really feel like we've really got to the guts of this film.
2:21:01
The cast is Immaculate, the filmmaking is of such a high
2:21:05
standard throughout, and this is from a really demonstrated to
2:21:08
me. If people say well, isn't
2:21:09
cinematography just making things look nice and pretty?
2:21:12
No, it's not about telling the story.
2:21:14
The centropy tells the story, the editor tells the story.
2:21:16
It's not just about putting things in order.
2:21:18
And the she guts from stone to make this film knowing he was
2:21:21
going to get a very public batter and from all corners for
2:21:24
a whole variety of reasons. Yes, it's given rise to an
2:21:26
unfortunate amount of conspiracy, no jobs.
2:21:28
And yes, you can rightly debate storm playing fast and loose
2:21:31
with historical accuracy. But as I said, the very soft.
2:21:34
I think that's missing the point to a large degree.
2:21:36
I'd agree that you know the kind of domestic scenes with delays
2:21:39
are a little blow apart, but that's not enough of a flaw for
2:21:42
me to take that into account. Take Gripsy from 1st frame to
2:21:46
the last. It is relentless in its peers.
2:21:49
It leads you die into normal and to dive back into it as soon as
2:21:53
it's finished. It's not just a 10, it's my top
2:21:56
ten of all time. It's just a staggering,
2:21:58
remarkable film. Oh.
2:22:01
There it is. Have that.
2:22:03
Have that. Wow, Impassioned.
2:22:06
I love it, Matt. Got to be for this one.
2:22:08
What about you, Westie? Again, I mean, I'm not going to
2:22:11
wax lyrical about it and take ages because I think we've spoke
2:22:14
about it enough and I think we've we've all kind of sung its
2:22:17
praises all the way through the podcast.
2:22:19
To be honest. I think it's just an incredible
2:22:20
piece of work. It's very Oliver Stone.
2:22:22
I think it's to see somebody sing an artist who has such a
2:22:25
vision and has such a belief and put that on screen with such
2:22:29
technical proficiency is just incredible and blows me away.
2:22:33
I think it's cinema in its most revealing and ambitious form.
2:22:37
It shows the power of the medium through techniques alone, and
2:22:39
you can learn everything about film Megan from any single scene
2:22:43
in this film. For that reason, it's important.
2:22:46
Yes, it might be lies, but it's lies on top of lies.
2:22:49
Throw some shit. I'm going to throw it straight
2:22:50
back. And there's nobody better to
2:22:52
throw shit at the establishment than Oliver Stone.
2:22:54
This to me is an easy 10. Oh yeah, I love that.
2:22:59
OK, right. Well, the runtime.
2:23:01
It's a daunting prospect, of course.
2:23:02
It's me, but if that has. Put you off until now like it
2:23:09
often would for me. Just please watch without
2:23:11
prejudice because you'll be richly rewarded.
2:23:14
I've been seeing this all episode now, but there are
2:23:16
elements in this film that are in the argument for the best
2:23:19
ever in movie history. And.
2:23:21
I really stand by that direction.
2:23:23
Cinematography, edit in all first rate the X scene one of
2:23:26
the best ever. As is the ensemble cast.
2:23:29
The Ferrari that this film stirred up and the cultural
2:23:31
impact that left behind is pretty much unrivalled.
2:23:35
If you're after a historical document of the truth, you're
2:23:38
looking in the wrong pace. Yeah, I think you could argue
2:23:41
that any text or artistic work on this story could never offer
2:23:44
the actual truth. No.
2:23:45
This is not a documentary, but it's a dizzy inversion of Oliver
2:23:49
Stone side of the argument executed by a movie director,
2:23:52
one of the greatest at the height of his powers.
2:23:54
And it's one of those glorious moments that I've had over the
2:23:57
last five years. It's happened a few times where
2:24:00
I come out of doing a podcast on a film that raced up my charts
2:24:03
and instantly become one of my favorites.
2:24:06
It is absolutely one of the greatest films ever made.
2:24:09
It's everything I could have ever asked for in a film.
2:24:12
It's without reservation at 10. Beautiful, wonderful, beautiful.
2:24:16
Oh, so big scores so far. Yeah.
2:24:18
But what did our patron and supporters rate JFK out of 10?
2:24:22
I'll keep the anticipation going a little longer while I pick out
2:24:26
some mini reviews. OK.
2:24:27
OK. Stuart Mcdeen said this has to
2:24:30
be the best research film ever made.
2:24:32
The attention to detail, performances and final courtroom
2:24:34
scene are superb. The best compliment I can give
2:24:38
it is that if you are an anti conspiracy theorist or even sat
2:24:41
on the fence around the JFK assassination, this film will
2:24:43
certainly give you second thoughts hugely.
2:24:46
Reward triple. It's a 10.
2:24:48
Lovely. Wonderful.
2:24:49
Yes, indeed. That's it, Stuart.
2:24:51
Love it, Andrea Barker Syed said. 10 For me an earless cast,
2:24:56
amazing cinematography and visually stunning.
2:24:58
For any fans of the Kennedy family, this film is a must.
2:25:01
Yes indeed. Andrea and Warren Dahr gave a
2:25:06
glory review, he said and Oliver Stone Classic.
2:25:08
Great storytelling, amazing acting, and visually fulfilled.
2:25:12
Robert Richardson won the Oscar for a reason.
2:25:14
Yeah, his score, though? A conservative 8 out of 10.
2:25:18
Wow, really? Yeah, he's.
2:25:20
Mistaped that hasn't he put he hasn't got a one on his zero on
2:25:22
his keyboard surely. Let us know what took away two
2:25:26
points for you weren't. Yeah, exactly.
2:25:28
Please do. So with all the scores combined
2:25:30
JFK averaged, what do you think on Patreon fellas?
2:25:33
I'm going to safely say 9. Yeah, I'll go 9 and that hits me
2:25:36
just in case, yeah. Yeah, well, you'd be very right.
2:25:40
It was a very +9. Right.
2:25:42
Nice. OK, I was hoping for hire.
2:25:44
I can see why people maybe not give it 4 marks for one reason
2:25:48
or another. Yeah, yeah.
2:25:49
Why? Yeah.
2:25:50
Join us again in all the right movies and a break from
2:25:52
tradition. Next Friday, we'll be opening
2:25:54
our meal bag and answering questions from our Patreon
2:25:57
supporters. A nice breezy Q&A episode should
2:26:00
be a hell of a good time. It'll be a great time.
2:26:03
Nice and easy. Thank God no research.
2:26:07
Need to stretch out to doing this.
2:26:12
That will be the four of us on that show.
2:26:14
And then two weeks after that, the two fellas here will be back
2:26:17
with John to go to Infinity and Beyond as they deep dive into
2:26:20
Toy Story. Matt trying to contain yourself.
2:26:23
Yeah, not even my pick. How was it not even?
2:26:26
Yourself jumping up all up but like say after JFK, an 80 minute
2:26:31
cartoon. Yes, please.
2:26:32
Yes, yeah, that sounds. Perfect.
2:26:34
It's like a nice warm bath. Also like today is a brand new
2:26:37
episode of our Patreon exclusive movie review show, The Watch
2:26:40
List. You're missing out if you want a
2:26:42
Patreon supporter, so sign up for that and every single
2:26:44
podcast we've ever created as we are now into the two hundreds.
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Bloody hell. Bloody Ruddy hell, man.
2:26:52
Bloody Ruddy hell. That is patreon.com/all the
2:26:57
right movies, and for those that have, thank you so much.
2:27:00
But if you haven't, please leave us.
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2:27:08
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That's the way to do it. That.
2:27:13
Easy way in between all of our podcasts.
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2:27:33
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2:27:34
Yeah. Have a read if you don't
2:27:35
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Yeah, yeah, definitely. Unlike X in this film,
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definitely. Definitely true, but just as
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And our website is all the right movies.com and that is a wrap
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2:28:22
We better head off before the government jumps all over our
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Back and to the left, Back and to the left.