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Don't Fall out of Love at the Same Time · Made, Not Found

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_03: I remember you asked me when we first started dating, would I rather be wanted or needed?
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: My definition of wanted like I want to have sex with you, like a guy that's not definitely back.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_03: We may not have even like aligned on how we were gonna live.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: It might have just been we're going or we're not.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: But we made that decision together.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: If you're not feeling 100% infatuated with somebody at that moment, it doesn't mean it's over.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're dealing with indelegated first to realize that you didn't need it, and that's a whole other thing.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: We realized because I told you.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yes, yes.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: I realized because I asked, but sorry, that's before you apply.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this time you were honest.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I just knew it had to be cleared, and at that moment, I don't know why, but I was like, I'm gonna be completely honest, and that was a hard stretch for you because your whole reality and sense of truth was dropped.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Made Not Found.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: We believe the best lives aren't found, they're built one real conversation at a time.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: First time.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Of this.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thousands.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: You think we've had millions of conversations at this point?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh let's see, 19, 25 years worth of conversations, probably.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say so.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: I have a lot to talk about.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we just celebrated 19 years of marriage.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Which is crazy.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: 25 years together.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: 25 years together.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we just celebrated our anniversary, so we had some really interesting conversations about all of it.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know that we've really talked about like first of all, how amazing it is that we've gotten here given where we've come from and what we've been through.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: But secondly, like like what the foundation of that is, like how, right?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like how has it not only that we're still together, but arguably have a better relationship now?
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't know if it's arguable.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, hands down, a better relationship now.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think well, I think life has just continued to get better.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: So the and and our relationship getting better is a huge part of that.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think there's all kinds of aspects of that.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like us as individuals, I would I would probably say are better.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: Us as a couple are better.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: We now get to be parents, which is hard at the beginning and continues to get better, still hard.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: So yes, I would say in all aspects.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's funny though, when you s when you say that, there's a part of me that's like, oh, did you think it was not great in the beginning?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Would you have said at any point that our marriage was not strong?
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh our marriage, our relationship in general.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: So I would say the relationship in general when it first started was like I don't know, like as stable as any relationship that's very new, right?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's fair.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: And and we were also in college, right?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: You were 19, I was 21.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: So you know.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: Was there a lot of like excitement and passion?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: And was there also like a lot of shit to figure out?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Of course.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: So would I say it's so we're definitely in a more solid place now, and I would say like time creates that, right?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: So our marriage, I think, has grown um not just because of time, because a lot of people I think you we can observe like time can actually deteriorate their relationship, right?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh especially if they don't focus on it or work on it and they grow apart, whatever it may be.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't want to take that for granted, but I do think time, if you're intentional with it, makes the relationship better.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so I don't think it was ever bad, but I think it's gotten better.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: No, I agree.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: I 100% agree with everything you said.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting though, because I was watching this show recently and I was talking to a friend about it, and she was talking about like the newness of relationship and how like the passion is like and the excitement and how you never like go back to that initial phase, right?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Which I was like, you don't accept that I think that you can create that.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like I feel like our anniversary trip was like created that to some degree, right?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe you don't you can never go back to the fully like the newness and the new excitement, you know, new excitementness, that's not a word, but you know what I mean.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that like that kind of passion.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: But then on the other hand, where we've gotten today, you have like that kind of passion with such a deep understanding of each other and of ourselves that maybe that's better too.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think it's all better?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think that I don't I don't know if better is the right word.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think that you you said you can't replace the newness, and I don't I agree, you can't.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: Doesn't mean it's better.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like there are certain things about that that are amazing, and I think a good example with with not only our anniversary trip, recent one, but I I'd say probably every year or whenever we get to go on our own as adults for a trip, it creates a new level, new strengthens the foundation and creates a new level.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so you're creating the newness or the excitement just in different ways.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I and I I think you said it well, like the there's a deeper understanding, appreciation, uh, history that kind of gives you a new I don't want to keep saying better, but better foundation to start from.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think the gift of being in our 40s is that you know, I am so much more comfortable with my own skin, which then translates me being so much more comfortable with you and able to say exactly what I want, you know, whether that's you know, sexually or you know, not.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so though that continues to get better and better, where in my 20s, like I was definitely not able to, I didn't even know what I wanted.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't even know any of it.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: Well, in in all aspects though, and I think the the interesting part of that is like I I've told you this, but the more confident you are in yourself, the more attractive it is to me.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like we both know my tendency to like shun neediness or whatever that whatever that is, right?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_03: It just actually like forces repels me from anything, whoever that is, which is odd.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't exactly know why.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: But so that's that actually found um confidence and and security in who you are is actually more attracting or attractive, yeah.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: And and you were saying something else that I was thinking.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, while you're thinking of that, it's so funny though, because as you know, my mother always called me needy.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact that like you are like neediness is like kryptonite for you, is like comical.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the many things that's like so interesting of why our relationship is interesting that it worked in the first place, right?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like when we first met, you were live in large, promoting parties, having thousands of people show up to these clubs, you knew everyone, you kissed everyone on the cheek, you were, you know, you're bad news, you had bad news written all over you.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember my mom, even you know, in the beginning, I was kind of like, okay, this guy's a playboy, like I'm not gonna take it seriously.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: I remember, you know, after spring break, I was like, well, that was fun, thanks.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: See you around, thinking like, okay, that's this is not a guy who's gonna like really be serious about me.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then as it got more serious, I remember my mom being like, Is this the life that you want?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this this guy's gonna probably stay in nightclubs.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: Well it said I would always be in the nightlife business.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: 100%, right?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And like, is is this a life that you're gonna sign up for?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just like, I mean, right there, those like two examples of like why there's like a million reasons why we shouldn't still be sitting here together today.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact that we are is beautiful and also so interesting.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, we've said this to plenty of people in dinner conversations when they ask how you meet, right?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_03: But it was like there we were meant to be together before we knew each other, and that was evident to our your boyfriend and my girlfriend at the time when we saw each other at the party and they both yelled at us afterwards, right?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: We didn't know about it.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I think it was it became more and more evident over time.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like it was like when we broke up the second time when you forced me to break up with you, essentially, I was like sick and heartbroken.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: My family had never seen me that way, right?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: So there was clearly something, um, something there from the beginning.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_03: And it is interesting that we grew together because not only the time, but the changes in like transitions in life, whether that's physical location, Chicago, San Diego, Miami, or whether that's phases of life, you having to support me with rent to to pay my rent.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: At the very beginning, yeah, early uh, or you know, the comp you know, four loco going crazy, or all the issues with that, or you know, or me not losing myself for a while.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: All these things are you know issues that I brought upon us.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: Like there were a lot of opportunities for us to not grow together, to grow apart.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: And you could have easily you could have not grown.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we could have not grown, one of us could have grown and the other not.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: We could have grown in different ways, right?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: But uh so it is fascinating the way it worked out.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: But going back, you know, there were all these interesting things when you think about it.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: You you mentioned needy uh a minute ago, and I remember you asked me when we first started dating, would I rather be wanted or needed?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_03: You remember that?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: I very much remember it.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: And what did I say?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: You said you have been needed your whole life, and you would rather be wanted.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe that's why the neediness repels me.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I answered the exact opposite.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I feel like I'm wanted by men to have sex with, like that part, and so I want to be needed.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: A different perspective.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Different perspective, right.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Which I think is the one of the most beautiful things.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think that we all often have different perspectives.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we've gotten to a place where I think we are able to respect each other's different perspective perspectives instead of trying to like force the other one to see it our way or something.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_03: Or try to win.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or try to win.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: So even that, right?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, okay, well, that's so interesting because it's so different, and it was like coming coming from different and neither one's wrong.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, I I think I'd be interested to know why you think that is, but part of it to me is age and experience.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like uh, you grow, you experience things, you understand.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_03: For me, I don't have to win every argument.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes it's just not worth there being an argument.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have to I don't have to make you believe what I believe.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's okay for me to believe what I believe and for you to believe what you believe.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: There are more win-win situations than and these are all growth moments for me, right?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: Because before it was I win, you lose.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking that as like in the beginning, I don't know that that was your attitude.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: For sure.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: And not only with you, I mean in j in life in general.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, look, the reality is, you know, my partnership issues at the first company, like, I know I had a part of that.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'll take a hundred percent responsibility for my 50% of that, which is language we've learned over time with you know, working with coaches and stuff, but it was definitely not that, and it evolved into that over time.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, at that stove, I feel like you first were the first one who you were the first one to like do yoga.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: You were the first one to get into meditation.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: I remember you telling me, like, go meditate, and I'm like, I don't have time, I'm too a baby and a toddler, and you're like, go make time.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, get your ass in the cold water.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: You made me do, yes, cold plunges, and then you were the first one to go do ayahuasca and plant medicine.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's interesting because uh you were the more stubborn of the two of us for sure.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: However, I guess always open-minded.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and fat I was always fascinated.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, for me, growing up in Youngstown was always interesting because um I always knew I wanted to get out and I wanted to, not because I didn't like it.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: I loved my having grown up there and all that came along with it, the good and the bad.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: But when I my eyes got opened to the bigger world, it was fascinating to me.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I remember going to Columbus when I was going to college down there and saying to my mom, like, I'm moving to the big city.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's not like the big city.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: It was comparatively totally, and I think I discovered so many things there that now we laugh about because our kids discover them so young.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: But like I discovered sushi.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't think I had a mango, uh, maybe not even until we moved to Chicago, like um all these things that are you know so intuitive or or natural for our our boys now.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I was always curious and fascinated, which maybe made me then open to try new things.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that just to give perspective, right?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we're both from Youngstown area.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: You're much more from Youngstown, I'm from the suburbs of Youngstown.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: Youngstown, Ohio.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Youngstown, Ohio.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, good point.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Which is very blue-collar, very um I'm gonna say closed-minded.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Some people might disagree with that.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: Well, they're broad generalizations of a of a culture at that time.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and like scrappy, and um I don't know how else would you describe Youngstown.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: All those things and more, but stagnant, I would say somewhat stagnant energy.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, I worked at General Motors there as an intern, and like there's people who would have like a countdown of years until they retired, and it was like very much that.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: It was like you're kind of like grinding, like you're in Youngstown and you're grinding it out, and that's life.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Life is kind of a grind.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's where we both were, we both grew up, and I think we would both say we had amazing childhoods, even you know, you had a lot more struggle in yours than I did, but like amazing.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I didn't even realize, you know, I always thought I was very open-minded, and I think maybe by comparison, I was, and still probably very close-minded.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, you got mad at me like early on in a relationship because we got out of the car and we had at this plaza and I don't remember what the guy said to me, but do you remember this?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh keep going.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody said something to me, and I shut him down immediately.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know what I said, but I was like, the conversation was over before it even started, and you were pissed, and I was like, so like I didn't understand it at all.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you were like, you didn't even, you weren't open-minded at all, you didn't even listen, you didn't even get an opportunity, and I was like, Oh my gosh, like I think I'm always so open-minded.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, maybe I'm not as open-minded as I thought I was.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, interesting because I feel like I'm very open-minded now, and I think that that's one of the things that makes our relationship really good, is I think we're both really open-minded and curious and non-judgmental of each other, which allows space to be who you are without I don't know, without lies, without hiding, without fear, with you know which I think takes time, right?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: You have to you have to be willing to uh approach the subject or the topic, and that's risky, and it could go one of two ways, and you know, it going on a positive way only makes you more comfortable with other subjects, right?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: Or whatever it may be.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: But it's interesting, you you mentioned that about me being curious or open to new things, and I think that's probably one of the things that I it's funny, I bet there's a lot of people who would not think that of me that if they don't know me that well.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um now or back then?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh probably more back then.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think like a new crowd, like the people that know me only from Miami would probably think I'm very open-minded.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: I bet there's a lot of people from Ohio or even Chicago who would not think of me that way.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, even though I think it has been I have been the entire time.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh as you know, I had a harder time expressing a lot of things, so that they probably only know a certain for me.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: But anyways, my point is that's the thing that I probably that you got got from me, right?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: And for me, the thing was you you were you grew up in a family where we talk about things openly, we hash the shit out, we work through it, and mine was the exact opposite.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: It was like act like it didn't happen, get over it, you're harboring bad feelings, but whatever, and you love who you love because they're your family or you love them, and but you can hate them too.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and like that was a contention point early in our marriage that took a lot of work to get through, and now it's like an amazing thing that we even get to see our boys do, but that's I think those are both good examples of like how we grew together because yeah, you know, I'm seeing the best things that you're bringing to me, even if they're foreign or to the relationship and vice versa.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's so true.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think communication's gotta be the biggest issue in relationships, period, right?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Not just uh romantic relationships, but I think you know, you look at your partnerships, like there's the issues stem from a lack of communication, which leads to a lack of understanding.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's so easy to create all of these stories in your head, and then you support the story because that's the only thing you see, and that's what you believe.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's so easy, you know, there's so many times where I I could have done that with you, right?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I remember like I remember when we were first going through not to dish out all of our shit in the first thing, but I remember we first were dealing with infidelity, and I first realized that you had cheated on me, and and that's a whole nother topic.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well you realized because I told you.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yes, yes.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: I realized because I asked, which I had asked before and you had lied.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah this time you were honest.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember thinking though, I was like, oh my gosh, like, you know, if I don't want this, it's so easy to paint a story.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: He cheated on me, it's you know, he's unfaithful, like it this isn't gonna work with our foundations gone, like people don't change.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: 100%, right?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: And like and I remember praying extensively because I was like needed help to move past that story because that's what I was like realized when I sat with it.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, that's not what I want.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like I still choose you, I don't choose that version of you.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like I can't be in a relationship that you're not gonna be with in me, you know, be 100% in with me.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: However, I didn't build that story, but and it took work not to build that story.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: But it's so easy to build these stories, and if you're not cognizant of even doing it, you don't even realize, right?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think that and people get stuck in these versions of of who they were, who maybe they aren't even anymore.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_03: Or or maybe they weren't even that, you just that was your perception of them, and you d solidified it because it absolutely had to be true in your mind, not just you, anybody.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: And it may not even be the reality.
• 19:03
  unknown: It's true.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: I think that it's an interesting one.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I remember specifically I rem obviously remember because it was a huge moment for many reasons, many of them negative, but ultimately I think very positive.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: It was like scary, but I knew it had to be cleared.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_03: I never thought it really bothered me.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: There was nothing really like there was no real like depth behind anything, um, which in my mind was like, well, then it's not that big of a deal, but I just knew it had to be cleared, and at that moment, I don't know why, but I was like, it's time to be completely honest.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: And that was a hard stretch for you because your whole reality and sense of truth was rocked.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: And for me, because of like my actions creating a potential scenario that I didn't want, where we had kids at the time.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_03: Not when it happened, but when we when we talked about it, 100%.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Our third, yeah, yeah.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Our third was a baby.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so, like, that was a lot of um uncertainty, and um, but ultimately I remember talking to people down here in Miami and and mentioning like it's really amazing to have a relationship that is a hundred percent honest.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and like it changed a lot of things in my mind.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_03: I what I realized was I actually never had a relationship with anyone that was a hundred percent honest, and so that's like really powerful and different, yeah.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I wonder how many people don't have that, right?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: What whatever that may be, right?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: You think of all the little things, and I can still think of them that I may not uh be proud of or want to admit or want to even say, or like maybe just like what's the point in telling you this, right?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm sure I know a lot of people have that mentality, and a lot of credit to you because not only in that situation, but in all the ones after, it's never like judgmental or I mean, look, it could be hard and you don't have to agree, right?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, but completely feel the like I completely feel and and now understand the unconditional hundred percent love no matter what, no matter who I am, what I do, whatever it may be.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: Totally new phenomenon for me.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, which is amazing.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna make me cry, but I mean, that was that was the hardest thing that we've gone through in our marriage.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean that was a big, big thing, and that took a lot of work and months and like so many.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Probably years.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Probably years, but like really like to get to I mean, I couldn't sleep at night.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: I would wake you up in the middle of the night crying, and like we probably had millions of conversations in two weeks.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: It was like really I mean, it took a lot to process that and 100% it made me question every single thing, which was the scary and hard.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: art part and then once we were able to once we got over that then remember I was like oh by the way like I fucked up that brand new purse you got me and I hid it and like here's all of my secrets right that's what I mean like the the beautiful part of it was then it became a completely open book all the way around which and then safe to like um express that I was having this thought that I wonder if that put me back on my heels a little bit whereas before that I might have been pissed about the purse and now I'm like whatever it's just a purse.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well by comparison like really you're gonna throw a fit about that exactly I mean it re-reset what I was gonna 100% because you would have been pissed about the purse per had you known you know when it happened.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah right but you know and maybe that's why it also was needed it's like it's like when things in our house get fucked up and you do it and I'm so happy it was you because I'm like if it's us you're gonna be really mad and if it's you you're like okay it happens and then maybe the next time it happens you're not as mad.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: Well I think that has happened.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: I think I've gotten a little better not perfect clearly but a little better when one of the boys or you something happens that isn't ideal for me because it's I've been the one to do it now.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_03: But it goes back to I guess the the got on a tangent but first of all even though you had never admitted the truth like there was an inner part of me that knew always and and whether or not and if it had never come out there would always be these walls that were there that you can't see but you can feel and I mean I had asked you I don't know how many times right like there were just I would have intuitive hits like I remember doing your laundry in Chicago and I was literally thinking I'm gonna I'm gonna find a condom and it's like why did that you know pop into my head but anyway those those those tiny little times where you're not a hundred percent honest then create these walls that are really hard to break down if you don't ever are if you're not ever able to be honest and talk about them I think it's a scary uh step to take it in any relationship and that's an extreme thing but there's probably a a lot of smaller examples that even if a couple's not dealing with something as earth shattering as that they that they may not even take those same steps with the the smaller things because it's scary.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: Totally I think one of the interesting things that came out of it um was we also then started choosing to live how we wanted to live.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so like I I remember when we were living in San Diego, had three sons COVID hits we're scheduled to go to go ski in Colorado which is kind of like the epicenter of you know the outbreak.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: People are freaking out telling us it's a red spot and like I don't even know what that means.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: And we I remember we literally walked into our room yeah left the boys out with my mom and said like how are we going to live life and we decided like we're not we're not gonna live in fear.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: And my point in that is the segue is like I don't know that those conversations would have happened before like we may not have even like aligned on how we were going to live.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: It might have just been we're going or we're not right you or me saying that with no real depth or conversation or or alignment behind it.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: But we made that decision together right yeah no totally I mean it's interesting though because if you're if you were a new couple or if you were talking to another couple right now who's like early in their relationship like how do you even give advice or recommend how to even get there?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like how do you even start that process?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: I don't I don't like to give advice so I don't know but I just I like about the st I like to think about like the story for us and maybe there's takeaways from that and so um I mean there was I don't remember who told us this I think you you told me it but like someone said just don't fall out of love at the same time.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: I will never forget for some reason I was watching Oprah and I was like at most in high school I mean as a kid living at home and I watched this couple who had been married for I don't even know like 50 plus years and and Oprah asked what was the secret to marriage and and and one of them answered don't fall out of love at the same time and I thought it was so profound which is why it stuck with me for my whole life because I think that you know I wrote a paper on this about how little girls are sold this whole lie is about Cinderella and you're gonna get swept off your feet by this prince charming who's always lovely and takes care of you and dotes on you and it's like that's not real right and then you get into these real relationships and I mean you're not the doting type so you've never doted on me, you know that's not that was not my fairy tale for sure.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was like oh that was a very realistic way to look at a marriage and think and the fact is like if they ebb and flow right like we can be obsessed with each other sometimes and sometimes one of us is or the other one isn't or neither one of us are obsessed.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's always a foundational love but I think to know that you're riding this roller coaster that is a journey that's just what it is, you know?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah but I think I think the in the the reason that comment was interesting to me is to even know like no one tells you how a relationship's gonna go or what's okay or what's not.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: And so to hear that if you're not feeling a hundred percent infatuated with somebody at that moment doesn't mean it's over.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: Which is interesting right because you could easily go well I'm not head over heels right now so I probably should get divorced.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's a really ra or you could be looking at it going well you know maybe for whatever reason I'm in a down swing.
• 27:47
  unknown: Yeah.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: But it'll be an upswing soon.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: And and at the same time I don't think everybody should always like should always like stay together no matter what.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: But like but you having that uh thought and feeling on your own without like to your earlier point communicating with the other person like that's not really fair or good.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: To that point I think that we're at a place where we could be like okay I'm feeling a lull with do something about it or I'm feeling disconnected.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I've said that to you before like I'm feeling disconnected and so then you have opportunities which is what they are like they're opportunities to to connect and to build that foundation again.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think and I don't even know that they're always said I think sometimes or maybe it's my perception but sometimes you might know something's off with me.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and you might just take some action that you might normally not whatever that might mean.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: Or it could mean sharing and then maybe it's me that's taking an action or stepping up doing something.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: I but I think the foundation of like being open and okay with talking about it and exploring it is has to be the first part because rewind 20 years if you had said something about I'm not feeling connected, I'd be like, well what the hell it's not my fault I didn't do anything.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh 100% I'd have been defensive as hell.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and actually that's the biggest thing I think that has been so helpful for me is to realize that as a woman I need to verbally process my emotions.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have to talk them out.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: That is how I make peace with them like what I mean I can journal but sometimes that's not even enough like and for so long when I would bring you something you were looking at it as very masculine way of I have to fix it.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm giving you something to fix.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: And 99% of the time I don't want you to fix anything.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: I want to feel heard I want to feel seen I want to feel understood and I want to feel loved.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's what I want to feel and that is not by fixing it.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's like really by like really understanding and and me feeling supported in that right but but it may be more intuitive to you to know what you were looking for.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like maybe you or maybe women I don't know like understand more that I'm not looking for you to fix it but I'm I'm just looking to meant verbally process or maybe that was an evolution over time.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: I think even knowing what you're what you're looking for or what you're what you would like back is is valuable and I just recently told you this I was like I never really put much weight into the idea of like I needed to have a lot of support from you.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: I was kind of always like just probably from childhood like I got this I'm on my own I can handle it whatever and hearing you know we were talking about money recently and it was like oh well how are we going to navigate this time or this situation and it was like oh yeah you're responsible is like oh yeah well we could do this we could do that and you've never put pressure on me about money but I probably put it on myself and so to hear that I didn't even realize that that was like what I was looking for.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: So to realize what you're looking for is amazing but it's not always the starting point.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes you gotta figure out even how to realize what you're looking for.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well 100% I think it's interesting anyway because I am like a person who for whatever reason I've always like almost been more interested in humans than like I know like you know I know nothing about like events.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: I would be the worst person on Jeopardy ever.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's a matter of like humans and like a matter of the heart like that's where I get really interested in intrigues.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember watching my parents when I was growing up mentally taking notes of like I don't want to show up like this with my husband and mom I adore you but like thinking like they're in the car together and she's telling him how to drive and like he's getting angry and anyway so I feel like I've always um been paying attention to relationships and like how I want to show up in them.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like a very much like a feeling kind of person.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously you know this very much like I have big feelings and I have lots to talk about about my feelings where you like came from such a different place that I think you're just now starting to even like understand and think about your own feelings to with depth.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like that wasn't something that you ever even had any understanding of and you can still be really grumpy for like days and not even know why.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so like if you don't have an understanding of why you're even upset or what you're even going through, there's no way you can communicate what you need because you don't even know yeah exactly.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: I I think going back to the idea of you being fascinated with people though it's it's also interesting to see how things can change because I remember when we first started dating you always tell the joke of like you would ask questions that I would know were going to be like like sore spots for people at the table.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: A little bit uncomfortable maybe a little bit uncomfortable.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: Probably just a little bit uncomfortable but for me it was like well just keep everybody comfortable and talking yeah we'd be at dinner parties with another couple and I would I'm just curious.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: I just ask questions.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: You cut right to the deep question I'd be kicking you like don't and now now like when I when we meet people or when maybe I know people and uh and we're gonna go to dinner or something with them and they're gonna meet you, I'm like, oh yeah she's definitely the more interesting person because when we go there you cut to those really deep curious questions and it really for the most part we're a bit self-selecting so if we're at dinner we're probably know they're gonna be open to it.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: But and then it really gets interesting in the conversation and you either know there's nowhere to really go hide.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: So they you're gonna really get to know somebody right yeah and where that may have been a thing in the past I was like why I wouldn't like just just smooth over it.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: Now it's like so fascinating and interesting.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so you say you're not curious but in many ways you are maybe just not about the same thing.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: No I'm very curious.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: If I said I'm not curious it's the wrong that's not you know I'm very open maybe open you're saying I think that what it is is I could care less about like facts about the I know nothing about the news.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: I know nothing about politics I know nothing about all of that, right?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: But like when it comes to people like I'm extremely curious.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: But interestingly I think you've actually gotten better questions through the years than I have for whatever reason because you're so like thought out and like you'll come up with this like amazing question where I'm just like talking.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: But but either way it's interesting because we get to know people on a deeper level because I feel like that's how we now understand ourselves on a deeper level and that's how our relationship is on a deeper level.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: So like all the other stuff is so boring.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's um it's interesting thinking back though I was thinking about when I first started working with Daphne right the the I the your first coach.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah my first coach which was more of like a conscious leadership coach which I had no clue what that even meant but you know the story of our friend talking it talking using language that was interesting to me and intriguing and foreign and I was like I kind of want whatever he's got let me learn about this.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I think I was sh showing up a little bit different with you and probably saying some things and and it intrigued you right and then you essentially started working with another coach with Shakti and I think that was an interesting thing like what made you intrigued enough to explore some foreign thing with this woman Shakti of coaching?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh well actually we started going to Shakti together.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because you were working with somebody in Daphne Daphne and then uh a friend had said that they were seeing Sh Sh Shakti.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Shakti uh their as together they're and so I was I think that I think I've always been interested in anything that's gonna help our relationship.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that's always like my question, right?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's like But it was like a conscious like the heading was like a conscious relationship coach or something.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't a therapist which I've tried therapy actually I didn't find anything that really came for it for me.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: But that was very interesting because it was something new.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so honestly though funny enough this is probably how most people go to therapy I went in there thinking like oh like this is so great because I have all these feelings and all these whatever and you're like very closed and can be like kind of mean and so she's gonna say you're kind of mean like she's gonna help you like communicate better with me.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: You're gonna get somebody on your side and tell me all the things I'm doing wrong.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of I mean I think I kind of went in thinking like oh this is gonna be so good.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then we got there and it was like oh well this isn't about his problems.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is about how you're reacting to what he's doing.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like oh damn that's not what I signed up for.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: But it was like the first time that really opened my eyes to it's not about what everyone else is doing.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's not you know you can be moody and grumpy and all those things but it's not about that.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's why am I having a reaction to your moodiness.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so how can I still work on myself instead of trying to fix your moodiness.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that was such a pivotal moment in our relationship because prior to that I just wanted you to see it.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted you to stop being moody like I just wanted you to change and then but at the same time you didn't want me to fix it so fair.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's well when I can't well that's actually a good point.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's an interesting point.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I think more than anything I wanted to feel validated.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to feel understood that that because you were being moody it was causing me pain and you would be understanding in that which you weren't capable of giving me at the time and I was coming from the wrong place because I was still coming from a place of like lack and seeking instead of being like okay I'm good and I'm not sure what's happening here but like we need to work we need to talk through that you know like it's it was it's just a different energy I think.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was such a huge shift and I'm so thankful for her to this day because I think it opened up then this whole way of thinking and then it's like that never ends like it's you know well I I think that was the reason that was interesting to me and I brought it up was because I think both of those were eye-opening for us.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: And then I think the eye-opening component led to more eye-opening things like experiences whatever you want to call them whether that's like uh ayahuasca as you mentioned like just going to Peru or um I mean working with Robert Alderman as a business coach or like oh there's plenty for you going to Joe Dispenza or whatever it may be.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_03: It was like this this like self-exploration and self-betterment journey kicked off and then now where I feel like it sits which is really interesting because I don't think it was there for a long time I wonder why but is like I have my things and you have your things right you go to Joe Dispenser you were going to go to the thing in Tennessee I can't remember what it was.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to something else yeah in a couple months but yeah and I'm like go 100% and do your thing and follow whatever is intriguing to you for growth or experience or whatever and you're very much the same with me.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think I I think before it used to be like well we have to be doing these things or like how are you going to go why aren't you interested or how are you going to go do this without me and that's such a strange mentality when you think about it because you're not facilitating the person to be a whole person themselves you're kind of almost not you I'm just saying in in these situations you're creating like a codependency or it's not okay.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I understand it from a level certain level because if you I mean I remember when you were first going to do ayahuasca and you you know contacts like you were in kind of a funk for a while prior to that right like for like two years for a while.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: That was like a couple days years not days.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and uh I mean I remember laying there in bed next to you and I was like I had to say it I'm like what if you go there and you don't want to be married anymore and like to get those words out of my mouth like it's been years now and I could still cry because it's such a vulnerable place to be.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: And the scary part was you said you were honest.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're like I had that thought too and I was like God and I'm like but I know you still have to go like you have to find yourself which is like probably like you know whatever that saying is you let the bird go and if it comes back because it's like the greatest gift of love that I think I could give you is like I know you need to go heal yourself and even if that healing journey doesn't include me like you still have to go do it.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: But that's really hard and really scary.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that maybe people don't do that because there is there's fear and you think if you're gonna do separate things and that creates a lot of space to grow apart.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know and like if you're not in a solid place in your relationship then yeah me going to Joda Spenza like what if I meet some other guy?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: What if you go to to Tony Robbins and you meet this amazing girl right so like the foundation has to be there to be like the foundation and the love and the understanding that the more you work on yourself the better it is for our relationship.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah I mean that's an incredibly vulnerable and scary place especially for you being the ones being at home when I'm leaving right for some experience.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_03: And we've talked about this before like when you're the one traveling or gone it's much easier because you know you're busy with something new and when you're the one at home it's like which we've both been it's like really slow time.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so how do you think um what do you think actually helped when I came back or when you came back to like you said you gotta like work on or like solidify the relationship like what do you think worked when either of us came back that helped us from growing apart from this growth that was definitely different.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like I've never gone to Joe Dispensa right you've never done ayahuasca like yeah they're definitely different experiences.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean I have so many answers but I feel I mean I feel first and foremost like there is just some like tie that we have that is so real and it's like an energetic tie or a pool to each other that like that is just there.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I feel like that has always been the foundation even when we weren't great at communicating even when we were not super open-minded and maybe not as supportive as I think we've always been supportive but you know we've gotten so much more but I think that maybe because I mean you came back from ayahuasca like almost a different person and before you even came back like you were sending these text messages like hey beautiful and I'm like who is this man?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like you've never talked to me that way and you know you came back and the the passion that we had for each other and like the because you were there working on yourself and you were able to open your heart in a way that you had never opened your heart and you know you whatever you can speak about your experience if you want but I think maybe because that also was like we had a positive had you gone and came back and been like I don't know if I want this marriage then maybe every single step we would take to better ourselves would be that much more scary.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: But that wasn't our situation.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good point.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_03: So the foundation of the the first experience of personal growth at least away from each other like when you worked when you were working with Shakti individually for a while and I was with Daphne but we were that was in our city we were coming home it was like a couple hours so the first experience was very positive so it kind of set the tone for yeah that's a that's actually interesting to think about with anything new then like how do you make sure I guess it's cliche but how do you make sure the first is set a positive foundation for whatever it is you're and maybe you can't ensure that but I still think that underlying if you had come back and been like this isn't what I want I would have been devastated but I still wouldn't I would be at peace with it because I would I never I told you always right like I want you to choose me.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't ever want you to be with me because for any other reason other than like You want me to want you not no you want me to need you though.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: But it has to be both right I only want you to need me and from a place of like I am crazy about you and I can't get enough of you need me.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: Not like that's like want really bad that's not need in my definition.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_03: That's probably why
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Probably, but in my definition of want, it's like, oh, I want to have sex with you, like the guy at the bar, right?
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's not there's no depth to that kind of want.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Where like to me, I guess the need is like a want that is has depth.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like it has like, yeah, like you could feel it, right?
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: See, for me, when you said need, it was like dependent on.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't want that either.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's like enabling and like there's not that sounds so unsexy anyway, right?
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I need you to what?
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Take out the trash.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like thank you.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's like the worst example, but like I need you to even like any of those, it's like I need you to take care of the kid.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, that's like not there's but like I want you to want me so much that you need me.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's like what it is, right?
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know where I was going with that.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we were talking about the first experience being positive of personal growth, coming back.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, right.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's what.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: So if you had come back and said, like, I don't know that I can be in this marriage, like as much as I don't I would I didn't choose that, that's not what I was choosing, but I would have been like, okay, like if you're not if you can't be fully in it, I don't want it anyway, right?
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't want a part of you because I want you to really want it.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that even if that had been the case, it would have been a completely different trajectory for our lives.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'm thankful that didn't happen.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess I had to be comfortable with the fact that if that's what it was gonna be, uh it was going to be for the best of our own individually.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_03: When I I was just thinking when you were talking how um some some of the things that we've done have been like probably crazy to you, but just like whether it's intuitive or fearl uh fearless, I guess, for me, like, or not really a concern, and vice versa, right?
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: There have been things that you've led us to that I'm like, this doesn't make sense, this is crazy, right?
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: And in most cases, I think we've probably gone along, right?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: So the one that came to mind for me was coming to Miami the one winter, and let's go into that in a second.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_03: And the one that came to mind for you was when you found Waldorf schools in California with the boys, right?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so the one the one for me, like I was thinking about how that just came out of nowhere, and I I was thinking, I think we both agree, it was such a good thing, but it was such a scary thing at the time.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_03: We were we were gonna come to Miami.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: We were living in Chicago.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_03: We were living in Chicago, we were gonna come to Miami for a winter with our baby who was six months old.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_03: Six months, right.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_03: And we were gonna live right on on Ocean Drive, like the mid middle of the chaos.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: And leave like my dream home in Chicago.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_03: And we knew no one.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that was like a really scary thing, and and then but you said yes, which I want to come back to in a minute, but then then at the end we realized like that was the best experience ever because we realized like not that you don't want other people around, but you don't need a big social circle.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_03: Our families, our family, yeah, we're capable of getting along anywhere, and it was really f liberating, right, in many ways.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_03: But at the moment when it came up, it's probably a crazy idea to you.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_03: And and so, like, why was it not because it wasn't contested, you weren't are you never argued about it.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't argue, but I asked questions.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you remember everything in the beginning, you would like get so excited about idea, you'd like come home and like we're gonna go to Chicago for six months, and that I would like be like, okay, but we have a baby, and how are we gonna have a crib crib and we don't have this?
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, we're gonna go to Miami for six months.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: I said that we're gonna go to the Chica.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and so you would be like deflated sometimes because my questions felt like they were like I'd say don't shit on my idea.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, don't rain on my parade.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think through the years I learned how to still ask my questions without raining on your parade.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I did, I still ask the questions like, okay, like how does this work?
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do what do we do about a crib?
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: But you were like, buy a new crib.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like to me, I think that there's always a million things not to do something, right?
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I come from a family who's so logical, and there you can work yourself into so many questions that it just feels easier to just not do it, right?
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: It just is like it's like like how we have to drive all of our stuff down, and we have a baby, and how are we gonna do that?
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: You can't drive to Florida by yourself, and how are we gonna do about crib?
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: All these things.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think that you've always had this like we'll figure it out mentality.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so once I can walk through those steps, and you're like, okay, we're gonna get a crib, we'll have it delivered, I'm gonna drive down with your dad uh, you know, you drove down with my dad, you're gonna fly.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: And anyway, you had like very simple solutions, and it was like, okay, like there was no no reason, but you had to be able to be patient enough to get me there because you want always like a yes without any well at the time I think I think I now appreciate the in personal and in business, I appreciate more of the dialogue because it does help vet out the the issues.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like I was just saying the other day I can get myself into something that I'm like, oh shit, this is more than I bargained for because I didn't ask these questions.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_03: So but yes, at that time.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: At that time.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that that's how we got there is because you were willing to have the conversation to make me realize that all the big things that seemed so big in my head were not big things, right?
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and on the other side, I remember being in in California when it was time for the boys to go to school and you found this Waldorf school, and I don't even know how did you find it.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm pretty sure our neighbor that lived across the street had told me that she knew a little bit about me enough to know that I'm a little bit granola.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, I think I have found the school you're gonna love.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, interesting.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so I went and toured it, and I was like, loved it, of course, but I was like, oh my gosh, like this place, they had no, there's no plastic anything, there's only wooden toys.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like the teachers where like they look like they're Amish, and like there's a garden in the middle, and it's all messy, and I'm like, I love this place, and Chris is gonna be like, What the hell is this?
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I remember we went and toured it then, and I was like, what is this hippie shit?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_03: And and then at the end, I remember like after they went there, um, being like, This was the most beautiful experience for our kids that they could ever have.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_03: And and so for me, thinking about that, I was like, there was a bit of like I don't think I ever thought it through, but thinking about it now, I think there's a bit of like, this is her terrain, and therefore I'm gonna like not completely defer, but defer heavily weight her opinion and perspective.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_03: Which is probably why I didn't put up, I don't think I put up any fight once once I saw it.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_03: But uh, but it's also a I'm I'm stringing a bunch of thoughts together here, but it's also an interesting thought about like how things when you're in at least for me, I think for you too, but when you're in that mindset of like exploration and just openness and you pay attention, things start to like I don't want to call them synchronicities because I think they're messages from God, but like I think it's the same thing, but yeah, they start to happen.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so I remember we went there and I was like, great in my mind when the kids are really little, but like, does anybody really go to this kind of school and graduate from it?
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_03: And like, what is there, a Waldorf college?
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then are they a bunch of weirdos?
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_03: Right, and then I randomly get hooked up with this guy from New York who lives in San Diego.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_03: I have drinks and dinner with them, probably one of the most fascinating guys I had met, and he tells me he graduated from a Waldorf high school, and it's like it clicked for me.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_03: And and I feel like many times when I or I think we too sometimes are in that mindset, things just start to like 100% fall in place and that reinforce things.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that um I think we have a solid level of trust for each other, and I think that we make decisions very differently.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm super intuitive, I feel into everything, right?
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like you have for the most part like trusted my intuition.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like you have supported that, and I feel like you um are also intuitive but in a very different way.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for me, I I was thinking that as you were saying, for me, intuition doesn't mean feeling into it, it means not.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_03: It means actually just like whatever pops into my mind, being like, oh, let's let's follow that, but but not get distracted with too many other things.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: But interestingly, I think that we've been able to trust each other when either of us has a strong feeling that intuitively something's right.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean you can tell when I'm passionate, I can tell when you are too.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's a little bit different than if you're presenting some like maybe I don't know.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_03: That's true.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was like, this is the right school for our kids.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like I for sure, right?
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and you might have had, you know, you I think you left and you were kind of like, it's kind of weird, but sure.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'm like, that's good enough for me.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need like you to be excited about it.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: I just need to guess.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, I think this I think also though, I mean, when we bought houses, I remember, you know, when we looked at our house that we bought in Encinitas, and I was like, I think this is our house.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, you came to the same same conclusion also, which is also very helpful.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: Same thing with our house now, right?
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: That I feel like I don't know, it's interesting.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I I think the the interesting thing is like you mentioned started by saying how you had to work through all of your questions.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's true many times, but it's also true of me, which I didn't think about until just now.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_03: When we started talking about the houses, like you found both of those.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_03: I was trying to think of the first house in Florida if you found that too, but you found both of those, and then it took me time to like think about how we're gonna piece put the pieces of the puzzle together to make it work.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, those are when you're financially responsible.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we are obviously as a couple, but you have provided our finances.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that is a different weight for you where I very much could feel into it and it I mean that look, the story behind our house now I think is worth telling because like I went to Joe Dispenza and I wanted to manifest a house on the water and a house for your mother because she was living with us at the time.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_03: And near the school that we were driving an hour to each way each day.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, 100%.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: But that we loved.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I come back from a week-long Jo Dispenza, and we go to a birthday party for our youngest best friend, and it was literally like the same day or the next day.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm talking to one of the moms there, and I said, Um, she was like, How was Joe Dispenza?
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, It's amazing.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm manifesting a house in the water and whatever.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: And she was like, Oh, you should talk to my husband.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: He builds houses and he has like and so we go and meet him, and he had our house.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like no, but he didn't at first, remember?
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_03: No, we but we looked at the other house that he had.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_03: So, first of all, he was a good person, and they were good people.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, and then we went and looked at the one house and we said, This isn't it.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but keep us in mind, and then he brought up, I think maybe within a couple weeks.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'd say it wasn't long.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so but uh the only reason I bring that up is because like um it wasn't the first thing, like you could easily go, well, this this isn't it, and I'm abandoning that.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: Fair, but to me it was always it.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like it I don't even remember that like bump in the road because it wasn't a bump in the road in my mind.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, oh, like I just called this in and it just kind of fell in my lap, and it's gonna work out, and then it just a hundred percent worked out that there was a house on the canal that's exactly our style.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: And in this amazing neighborhood.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_03: And it was gonna be finished around the time that we needed to, and it gave us time to sell our existing house.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and close to your mom's house that I think we what must have been in the works of getting or something.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right around that same time.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so so anyway.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like we just went on a tangent, but well, the whole thing started around 25 years together, 19 years married.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_03: We took this great trip, which which started out as a no, right?
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_03: We got invited to go to Spain to Ibiza and by some friends who had a villa for who are amazing for us to travel with.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_03: We would love them and love hanging out with them, and and the the I think they asked you first, and they the response was no.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because the dates didn't seem to line up.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: We already had plans.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: Those plans ended up falling through, but we already had plans, and it was around our boy's birthday, and I was like, it just I was like, it just doesn't not gonna work.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_03: And then kind of kind of piggybacking off the earlier story, then just paying attention, I'm talking to one of our other friends who's a DJ and has you know has been a residence and in has had a residence in Abiza for 20 years and had taken a break and is just going back and he was gonna be there.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_03: And it was kind of like, well, wow, we can go see our friends that we love hang out with, anyways, we can see our new friends with and have this great experience.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_03: So, yes, we'll make it work.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I I worked to figure it out to get us there and get my mom to cover us, and then sad to say, but like then I realized, oh my god, that's over our anniversary as well.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_03: So we extended the trip to stay there over our anniversary, and um and it ended up being amazing for many reasons.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_03: But it started as a no, and then as we paid attention, it morphed into a yes, and it was a great way to celebrate.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think that um the best things we've done for our relationship and why like we're in the place that we are 19 years in is because we have made it a priority to spend time together and do date nights and trips because I think that's when you get the magic of like the newness of the relationship back, and so we can talk about that another time.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_03: I just I just thought that the idea of the house kind of like at first there were obstacles, yeah, and then it it worked out as we paid attention and kept the conversation going and had faith and believed it was gonna happen.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_03: You manifested as Joe Dispenza, the same thing with the trip, and and uh it all it all works out, all worked out amazing.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't know how that sinks back to the beginning of a 19-year marriage, but well what you just said though, it kind of does, because it's like if what you like there's always gonna be obstacles, right?
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like we've had an amazing marriage with a lot of obstacles, and and that's just life, right?
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: You you've had multiple businesses, there's times where you're you know flying high, and there's times where I'm curled up in bed.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have much I want and that's just the reality of life, right?
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, our relationship has been far from perfect, but it's it's been an amazing ride, and it's going to have more obstacles and more things, and that's just life that you figure out.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: But but what a beautiful journey and be able to do it with, you know, my best friend.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's been such a blessing.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_03: Anchoring in that reality of like there's gonna be obstacles and actually knowing that and anticipating them, and then knowing from our experience that like the growth and like the the better stuff comes out of that, like actually makes it less concerning that there's gonna be obstacles.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of like, okay, let's continue to go and grow, and we're gonna have amazing experiences, and the hard parts kind of fall away in memory, and the the amazing experiences are what what last in the strong relationship and yeah.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, that's so hard when you're in the depths of something hard for her but it's such a good message, and like put some thing I hope so much to instill in our boys.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's like yeah, the struggle makes the beautiful parts so much more beautiful.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: You might get to take me out again.