Latest / Becker’s Healthcare Podcast / Advancing Neurosurgery Through Innovation, Leadership, and Lifelong Learning with Dr. Namath Hussain

Transcript

Advancing Neurosurgery Through Innovation, Leadership, and Lifelong Learning with Dr. Namath Hussain · Becker’s Healthcare Podcast

• 0:02
  - There's a small circle of people who truly
• 0:04
  - understand what it takes to lead a health
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  - system right now. The decisions are enormous.
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  - The variables are constantly shifting, and the stakes
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  - of getting a call wrong don't stay contained.
• 0:14
  - That's not a complaint. It's a structural reality.
• 0:17
  - And it's why the most effective c suite
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  - leaders are deliberate about where they go to
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  - pressure test their thinking.
• 0:22
  - Becker's fourteenth annual CEO and CFO roundtable
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  - brings together more than 1,500
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  - executive level attendees
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  - and nearly 400 speakers for four days built
• 0:32
  - around growth, financial sustainability,
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  - workforce strategy, and the leadership questions that don't
• 0:38
  - have easy answers.
• 0:39
  - Join us November second through the fifth in
• 0:41
  - Chicago.
• 0:42
  - For the agenda and event details,
• 0:45
  - visit beckershospitalreview.com
• 0:47
  - and click on the events tab in the
• 0:49
  - upper right.
• 0:50
  - This is Scott Becker with the Becker's Health
• 0:53
  - Care podcast.
• 0:54
  - I'm thrilled today to be joined by a
• 0:56
  - brilliant neurosurgeon,
• 0:57
  - a brilliant leader. But we're joined today by
• 1:00
  - Naymath Hussain, doctor Naymath Hussain. And doctor Hussain
• 1:03
  - is not just a doctor. He's an MBA.
• 1:05
  - He's a leader.
• 1:06
  - He's the vice chair and professor of neurosurgery
• 1:08
  - at Loma Linda University School of Medicine,
• 1:11
  - also the director of the California Association of
• 1:14
  - Neurological
• 1:14
  - Surgeons. He's got a number of other titles.
• 1:17
  - Brilliant, brilliant person.
• 1:19
  - Doctor Zane, can you take a moment and
• 1:21
  - introduce yourself
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  - and tell us about your career?
• 1:26
  - Yeah. Thank you so much, Scott. Thank you
• 1:27
  - for having me on on the podcast today.
• 1:31
  - Really,
• 1:31
  - enjoy the articles and the work and the
• 1:34
  - publications that you've put out. I think you've,
• 1:36
  - done so much for
• 1:38
  - for neurosurgeons,
• 1:39
  - for spine surgeons, and really helped our field
• 1:42
  - and really advocated for surgeons. So I really
• 1:44
  - appreciate that,
• 1:45
  - and I hope that you continue to do
• 1:47
  - the work that you're doing. Briefly about myself,
• 1:50
  - I am a neurosurgeon
• 1:51
  - by training.
• 1:52
  - I am a vice chair at Loma Linda
• 1:54
  - University Health.
• 1:56
  - I'm director of the,
• 1:57
  - MIS Spine Fellowship here.
• 2:00
  - I,
• 2:01
  - enjoy doing, a lot of health care advocacy
• 2:04
  - and health care policy work.
• 2:07
  - I'm active in the California Association of Neurological
• 2:10
  - Surgeons.
• 2:11
  - I'm also,
• 2:13
  - involved with the Pacific Pain and Spine Society
• 2:16
  - and numerous other, organizations as well. But I
• 2:19
  - love
• 2:20
  - keeping abreast on the newest technologies,
• 2:22
  - newest procedures,
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  - and really,
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  - love to fight for and advocate
• 2:28
  - for our patients and also,
• 2:30
  - my fellow surgeons.
• 2:32
  - Thank you. And talk a little bit about
• 2:34
  - I mean, you're a Johns Hopkins, medical
• 2:37
  - school grad. Brilliant, brilliant person.
• 2:39
  - Talk a bit about doctor Zink.
• 2:41
  - What are you most focused on and excited
• 2:43
  - about today in your in what you're watching
• 2:46
  - in health care in your professional career?
• 2:48
  - I think there's actually three things that I'm
• 2:50
  - actually kind of watching in terms of trends
• 2:52
  - and what I want to kind of push
• 2:54
  - for in the future.
• 2:56
  - Specifically,
• 2:57
  - in terms of, spine surgery,
• 3:00
  - I think one
• 3:01
  - excellent
• 3:02
  - really value add surgery that has been extremely
• 3:06
  - slow to adopt
• 3:07
  - has been endoscopic spine surgery.
• 3:10
  - This has been a procedure that I've been
• 3:12
  - doing for almost ten years now,
• 3:14
  - and it's just not known by anyone.
• 3:18
  - And there's been very slow adoption due to
• 3:20
  - a very steep learning curve,
• 3:22
  - lack of training programs, teaching it in their,
• 3:26
  - curriculum. So, actually, you have to learn it
• 3:28
  - on the job, which is what I did.
• 3:30
  - I found a mentor. I had to fly
• 3:31
  - to different areas,
• 3:33
  - observe cases, and so it's very difficult to
• 3:36
  - kind of master that technique,
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  - and I think no one wants to kind
• 3:39
  - of put in that kind of time and
• 3:41
  - effort once they're in practice. So I think,
• 3:43
  - the learning curve, is only gonna be conquered
• 3:46
  - when we start offering it as a core
• 3:49
  - curriculum within a spine fellowship program, which we
• 3:51
  - do it here at Loma Linda. But I
• 3:53
  - think endoscopic spine surgery adoption is, something that
• 3:57
  - is critical for
• 3:58
  - our field to move forward.
• 4:01
  - Another trend that I'm watching as well is,
• 4:04
  - artificial intelligence
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  - utilization in the OR. I think that's also
• 4:08
  - underutilized. There's so many other
• 4:10
  - fields in business,
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  - in publication,
• 4:15
  - in industry,
• 4:16
  - in coding, that are looking to really leverage
• 4:19
  - the benefits of AI. And I think as
• 4:22
  - surgeons, we're,
• 4:23
  - we're, you know, we're marrying, you know,
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  - knowledge,
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  - a lot of,
• 4:29
  - imaging studies, a lot of data,
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  - a lot of patient outcomes,
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  - and something that's
• 4:35
  - moving in physical space. And so I think
• 4:37
  - the marriage of robotics and
• 4:40
  - AI is, something that's really, really
• 4:43
  - possibly extremely beneficial for, for our patients and
• 4:46
  - for our surgeons.
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  - So that's another trend that I'm closely looking
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  - at.
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  - I recently just presented at the,
• 4:53
  - World Congress of minimally invasive spine surgery, techniques,
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  - where I'm a board member on this very
• 5:00
  - topic, and we can go into that a
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  - little bit later in the in the, podcast
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  - as well.
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  - And the third,
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  - trend that I'm watching is,
• 5:09
  - really looking how
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  - surgeons, specifically surgeons, not just medical doctors, but
• 5:13
  - surgeons,
• 5:15
  - can be more involved with hospital and medical
• 5:18
  - leadership.
• 5:19
  - I feel like, in general, physicians are underrepresented,
• 5:24
  - in hospital leadership in, you know, negotiations with
• 5:28
  - payers,
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  - with, industry, etcetera.
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  - And I feel like, most of those, just
• 5:33
  - because of the numbers, most of those positions,
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  - CMO, etcetera,
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  - are taken up by medical doctors who possibly
• 5:40
  - likely have more time,
• 5:42
  - and are not caught up in the OR
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  - all the time. Surgeons, I think, are underrepresented
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  - in these, leadership roles in the hospital and
• 5:49
  - in administration,
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  - and I feel like surgeons really need to
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  - take up that mantle to really advocate for
• 5:55
  - for our fellow surgeons who don't have possibly
• 5:58
  - the time to do all that.
• 5:59
  - It it take a moment on that. How
• 6:01
  - do surgeons find the time to do that?
• 6:03
  - Because your point is so well taken.
• 6:05
  - To really go into leadership,
• 6:07
  - leadership of a health system, which you probably
• 6:09
  - almost have to give up your core career,
• 6:12
  - your core practice, and that's a very, very
• 6:14
  - expensive thing to do. How do you get
• 6:16
  - more specialist involved in leadership? Because I think
• 6:19
  - it's so important
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  - showing up with such different biases depending on
• 6:22
  - where you come from, and having specialists involved
• 6:25
  - would be so critical. How do you do
• 6:26
  - that? Yeah. Yeah. It's just so funny on,
• 6:29
  - how I came into it. You know, you
• 6:31
  - would imagine,
• 6:33
  - a person who's going into leadership is someone
• 6:36
  - who is either and we have that kind
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  - of, stigma in our brain that any any
• 6:40
  - surgeon who does leadership
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  - is either not a well skilled surgeon or,
• 6:45
  - is not busy enough
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  - or, you know, just can't find time to
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  - fill his day, so that's why he does
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  - his leadership stuff. So I think we need
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  - to kinda get past that stigma of leadership
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  - being,
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  - a a negative mark on a surgeon and
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  - really kind of celebrate surgeons who really wanna
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  - go that pathway.
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  - For me specifically, I am on the other,
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  - extreme where
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  - my passion is surgery. I love surgery. I
• 7:10
  - love being in the OR. That's why I
• 7:11
  - became a doctor.
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  - You know, everything else that's involved with clinical
• 7:16
  - care, you know, if you kind of look
• 7:18
  - at your, job as a neurosurgeon in different
• 7:21
  - buckets, you know, you're talking about operating room,
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  - you're talking about clinic consults, outpatient,
• 7:26
  - neurosurgery, you're talking about inpatient neurosurgery, inpatient consults,
• 7:31
  - you're talking about, postoperative care,
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  - you're talking about, admin, etcetera. You're talking about
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  - teaching.
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  - Out of everything, I know and I do
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  - a lot of different things and I wear
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  - a lot of different hats, but out of
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  - all those things, the really thing
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  - part of my job that I really have
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  - a passion for is surgery, being in the
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  - operating room.
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  - And it's hard for a surgeon to really
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  - give some of that up, you know, and
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  - I've tried not to give it up. And
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  - I and I I because I love surgery
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  - so much. And so I you know, as
• 8:00
  - as a part of my employment, we always
• 8:02
  - have, an ability to kinda block off half
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  - a day for admin time. You know, I
• 8:06
  - never did that, and I still don't do
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  - that because that admin time, that that is
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  - not always filled up with critical,
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  - work every single week, and I like to
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  - at least do surgeries whenever I can. And
• 8:18
  - anytime I don't have a surgery set up,
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  - I'm doing admin work. And so I really
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  - have to, you really have to build a
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  - really good group of,
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  - admin assistants who know your schedule, who know
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  - when to work in meetings, appointments,
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  - calls with administrators,
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  - and oftentimes, it's a lot
• 8:36
  - of potentially taking away time for, you know,
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  - free time and family time in the evenings.
• 8:41
  - I mostly do a lot of my,
• 8:43
  - society work, my, work for,
• 8:46
  - PSPS, for CANS, for all the societies that
• 8:49
  - I work with. I usually do that in
• 8:50
  - the evenings.
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  - And so, again, I try not to have
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  - it interfere with family time.
• 8:57
  - I still remember one vivid, memory when I
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  - was, earlier in my practice when I actually
• 9:03
  - couldn't done couldn't get done with my clinic
• 9:05
  - notes,
• 9:07
  - on time in in in the clinic. So
• 9:09
  - I was actually bringing,
• 9:11
  - clinic paperwork home,
• 9:13
  - and, I was actually doing my notes. And
• 9:15
  - one of my little kids came up and
• 9:17
  - was like, you know, shut my laptop and
• 9:19
  - I was just like, oh my god. You
• 9:21
  - know? What am I doing?
• 9:22
  - What am I doing doing this desk work
• 9:24
  - at home? So I made a vow never
• 9:26
  - to do any,
• 9:28
  - clinic work,
• 9:29
  - and and never bring that home. So I
• 9:31
  - always get it done at work. So that's
• 9:33
  - another where a place where I've kinda leveraged
• 9:35
  - AI to do clinic work as well to
• 9:38
  - do,
• 9:39
  - note editing, etcetera,
• 9:40
  - and, note population. So I think,
• 9:44
  - you know, all these things kinda juggling different
• 9:47
  - responsibilities and paths for me,
• 9:50
  - has only been possible by kinda leveraging,
• 9:53
  - AI,
• 9:54
  - you know, creating a system around me with
• 9:56
  - a lot of assistance.
• 9:58
  - We have a residency program, so, obviously, the
• 10:00
  - residents and fellows
• 10:01
  - are also critical in helping me, get through
• 10:04
  - my day doing all the clinical work, but
• 10:05
  - also have time to do these other things
• 10:08
  - in terms of, society work and, business work
• 10:11
  - within the administration of our department and the
• 10:13
  - hospital. But I think it's, you know, a
• 10:16
  - lot of,
• 10:17
  - juggling different things, but also being really organized
• 10:20
  - and putting priorities.
• 10:21
  - And I don't think anyone is really good
• 10:24
  - at multitasking.
• 10:26
  - I think the keyword should be task switching,
• 10:28
  - you know, where you put a 100% of
• 10:31
  - your attention on one task, but then very,
• 10:33
  - very quickly pivot to something else.
• 10:35
  - Because I think the minute you start doing
• 10:37
  - the classical word,
• 10:39
  - multitasking where you're kinda thinking thinking of two
• 10:41
  - things at the same time,
• 10:43
  - there's been literature showing that that that really
• 10:46
  - actually leads to poor performance in both tasks
• 10:49
  - that you're doing.
• 10:51
  - And, potentially, if you, kinda bring that into
• 10:53
  - the operating room, that could potentially lead to
• 10:55
  - complications where you're not focused in the operating
• 10:58
  - room on the current task at hand.
• 11:00
  - Maybe you're thinking about the next patient. Maybe
• 11:02
  - you're thinking about a meeting next. I try
• 11:04
  - never and ever to do that and really,
• 11:06
  - focus on mindfulness in the operating room to
• 11:09
  - really make sure that the patient comes first
• 11:11
  - and that you're a 100%
• 11:13
  - focused and devoted in your surgical work in
• 11:16
  - the Operating Room when you're there.
• 11:18
  - I I think that is literally just fantastic.
• 11:21
  - Talk a little bit about
• 11:23
  - how do you get yourself to
• 11:26
  - focus on that calm so you're in one
• 11:28
  - place at one time,
• 11:29
  - not multitasking.
• 11:32
  - Is that something that takes discipline
• 11:34
  - or training to do to do really well?
• 11:37
  - I know it's impossible to do what you
• 11:39
  - do if you got
• 11:42
  - your head in too many different places, but
• 11:42
  - how do you keep that calm and focused?
• 11:44
  - It's something that all of us strive for,
• 11:46
  - I think.
• 11:47
  - Give us any thoughts on how you cultivate
• 11:50
  - that. Yeah. I think I've I myself have
• 11:53
  - been the benefit of a lot of good,
• 11:55
  - trainers and mentors in my career, and I
• 11:57
  - try to provide the same mentorship in our
• 11:59
  - fellowship program and our residency program here. But,
• 12:02
  - honestly,
• 12:03
  - it's
• 12:04
  - a focus
• 12:05
  - without letting distractions get in your way. It's
• 12:08
  - something that, you know, a lot of different
• 12:11
  - performance based,
• 12:13
  - technicians or,
• 12:15
  - jobs require.
• 12:17
  - Surgeons are one of them, but a lot
• 12:18
  - of them, you know, another big category is
• 12:20
  - athletes.
• 12:21
  - And so, actually, the
• 12:23
  - very forward thinking
• 12:25
  - opportunity that I had when I was actually
• 12:27
  - a a spine fellow at Swedish Neuroscience Institute
• 12:31
  - with, Radha Skoullian and, Jens Chapin and, David
• 12:35
  - Hanscom
• 12:36
  - was that,
• 12:37
  - part of our curriculum,
• 12:39
  - we actually, you know, were spine fellows, did
• 12:42
  - our all our clinical work, clinic work, OR
• 12:44
  - work, everything like that, educational work, and and
• 12:47
  - we had time for all those things. But,
• 12:49
  - also,
• 12:50
  - they paid for a
• 12:53
  - professional
• 12:54
  - golf coach and
• 12:56
  - OR
• 12:57
  - kinda mindfulness coach
• 12:59
  - to be at our disposable as much as
• 13:01
  - we wanted. So we had unlimited time to
• 13:05
  - spend with this, golf coach who was actually
• 13:08
  - the coach for the University of Washington women's
• 13:10
  - golf team.
• 13:11
  - And,
• 13:12
  - he would come to the Operating Room and,
• 13:15
  - coach us on how to be mindful in
• 13:17
  - the Operating Room.
• 13:18
  - And he was actually a person that was
• 13:20
  - brought in,
• 13:22
  - and he would kinda do this kind of
• 13:24
  - SWAT teamwork where if there was a surgeon
• 13:26
  - somewhere in the country that was having,
• 13:28
  - you know, a string of complications,
• 13:30
  - you know, something as, you know, CSF leaks,
• 13:33
  - nerve root injuries, something was happening recurrently
• 13:36
  - over and over again,
• 13:38
  - and you needed to stop it. You know,
• 13:40
  - you something was going wrong with the surgeon's
• 13:43
  - mind, and that was leading to these issues.
• 13:45
  - He would be called in, and he would
• 13:46
  - spend several days, sometimes a week with that
• 13:48
  - surgeon, figuring out what is the issue, what's
• 13:51
  - going on, what are you thinking about, you
• 13:53
  - know, how you you were a a very
• 13:55
  - productive, busy, safe spine surgeon for years and
• 13:58
  - years. Why is this happening now? Why is
• 14:00
  - this happening today, this week, this month? And
• 14:02
  - so he would,
• 14:04
  - go in and help actually teach mindfulness being
• 14:07
  - in the OR, being in the present, and
• 14:08
  - that's what we did during my spine fellowship.
• 14:11
  - And it was amazing, you know, in terms
• 14:13
  - of going from, you know, multiple complications, spinal
• 14:16
  - fluid leaks, all the stuff that you learn
• 14:18
  - in as a fellow,
• 14:20
  - to, you know, really reducing all those rates.
• 14:22
  - And when I came into practice, really
• 14:24
  - didn't have as much of a learning curve
• 14:26
  - when I was in practice on my own
• 14:28
  - without an attending watching me because of the
• 14:30
  - fact that I had to I had the,
• 14:33
  - previous experience of
• 14:35
  - having a surgical coach in the Operating Room
• 14:37
  - that I could really kinda think back, hone
• 14:39
  - in, you know, what what's going on now?
• 14:41
  - Why am I doing this? Why am I
• 14:43
  - thinking about this? Be in the present. Look
• 14:45
  - at the tips of your kerosene.
• 14:47
  - You know, listen to that hamma, that drill,
• 14:50
  - you know, the mindless drill, you know, really
• 14:52
  - get into the moment, you know.
• 14:54
  - And so I I think mindfulness
• 14:57
  - coaching, I know and it sounds kinda like
• 14:58
  - wishy washy,
• 15:00
  - not real stuff, but it's actually a real,
• 15:01
  - real skill. And I think actually paying someone
• 15:05
  - to be in the operating room and,
• 15:08
  - employing a mindfulness coach,
• 15:10
  - would is helpful. And us and then also
• 15:12
  - part of our fellowship program, we not only
• 15:14
  - did that in the operating room, but then
• 15:15
  - we went to the golf course and we
• 15:16
  - did the same thing.
• 15:17
  - And kind
• 15:19
  - of experiencing mindfulness in two different settings
• 15:22
  - in the operating room and whatever area that
• 15:24
  - you wanna do it in, golf course, tennis,
• 15:26
  - wherever else you wanna do it, do that
• 15:28
  - as well and have that same person coach
• 15:30
  - you in those two different environments.
• 15:32
  - They can really get into, like, why you're
• 15:34
  - actually missing, what like, you know, just like
• 15:36
  - when you're hitting a baseball or catching a
• 15:38
  - football, you know, don't think about running first.
• 15:40
  - Think about hitting the ball or catching the
• 15:42
  - ball first and then task switch to running
• 15:44
  - or doing something else after that. You know,
• 15:47
  - when you start when you start missing,
• 15:49
  - an at bat or missing catching the ball,
• 15:51
  - it's when you're thinking about running before actually
• 15:53
  - doing the task that you need to do,
• 15:55
  - which is catching or hitting the ball. And
• 15:57
  - so same thing with surgery, when when you
• 15:59
  - get a CSF leak or, injure a nerve
• 16:01
  - root, it's not because you're thinking about the
• 16:04
  - task in hand because you weren't. You know,
• 16:05
  - you were actually thinking about what your next
• 16:07
  - step is, what the next step is, when
• 16:09
  - when are you when are you gonna do
• 16:10
  - the screws, etcetera. So when you're not being
• 16:13
  - in the present, that's really when you kind
• 16:15
  - of veer off the rails and,
• 16:17
  - cause complications.
• 16:19
  - But I absolutely love that entire
• 16:22
  - discussion and and school of thought and so
• 16:25
  - important and so helpful for me who's a
• 16:27
  - constant multitasker and ends up not doing some
• 16:29
  - things as effectively as I should because I'm
• 16:32
  - trying to do too many things. I just
• 16:33
  - love that.
• 16:35
  - You've had this great career, and and you're
• 16:37
  - a brilliant
• 16:38
  - doctor, brilliant person.
• 16:41
  - What advice would you give to emerging physicians
• 16:43
  - that want to have a great career? I
• 16:45
  - mean, I love your focus on this clarity
• 16:48
  - and calmness and one thing at a time
• 16:50
  - and also
• 16:52
  - getting involved in leadership
• 16:54
  - beyond your practice. You've done that as in
• 16:56
  - a variety of places.
• 16:57
  - What advice would you give to emerging leading
• 17:00
  - physicians?
• 17:02
  - I think just kind of being around leaders
• 17:04
  - or being on committees.
• 17:06
  - People think that just put your name in
• 17:08
  - the hat and just be involved with whatever
• 17:09
  - you can
• 17:10
  - and leadership.
• 17:12
  - It's still it's kinda like surgeon.
• 17:14
  - Surgery surgery, learning
• 17:16
  - in residency and fellowship. Maybe that's a nice
• 17:18
  - analogy.
• 17:19
  - Just assisting or being around someone in the
• 17:21
  - OR, you're not gonna magically absorb
• 17:24
  - surgical knowledge from your attendings just by being
• 17:27
  - present. That's good. You have to show up.
• 17:29
  - That's the minimum. However, in order to really
• 17:32
  - absorb information,
• 17:34
  - really learn, you have to actually be involved
• 17:36
  - with the critical portions and be trained appropriately.
• 17:38
  - You can't just sit there and absorb
• 17:40
  - information from standing next to a surgeon who's
• 17:43
  - doing surgery.
• 17:44
  - Same thing with leadership. You can't just
• 17:46
  - volunteer for a committee or just be there.
• 17:49
  - That's not enough. It's it's it's a requisite,
• 17:51
  - obviously. You have to be in the room
• 17:52
  - to actually,
• 17:54
  - you know, advance your career and take on
• 17:56
  - leadership roles, but that's not the that's not
• 17:58
  - the end all be all. We actually have
• 18:00
  - to actively
• 18:01
  - be involved with learning leadership skills.
• 18:04
  - And I think think taking time off to
• 18:06
  - do that for a surgeon is hard, but
• 18:08
  - there's a lot of programs that are out
• 18:09
  - there that are teaching this. And for me
• 18:11
  - specifically,
• 18:12
  - I did want to talk about, a one
• 18:14
  - year actually, before I get into that, I
• 18:17
  - myself, because I wanted to take on these
• 18:19
  - roles, actually,
• 18:21
  - did a,
• 18:22
  - master's of business administration. I got an MBA
• 18:24
  - years ago when I was,
• 18:27
  - doing my fellowship and then,
• 18:29
  - and then also when I was in my
• 18:30
  - first year of practice was a two year,
• 18:33
  - MBA,
• 18:34
  - through Arizona State University.
• 18:36
  - And it was an amazing experience, taught you
• 18:39
  - all the hard skills, soft skills of business
• 18:41
  - leadership,
• 18:42
  - finance, marketing.
• 18:44
  - It really gave me a strong footing,
• 18:47
  - in terms of getting my career off the
• 18:49
  - ground. I always wanted to do an MBA.
• 18:50
  - Actually,
• 18:52
  - when I started my undergraduate career at USC,
• 18:55
  - I actually got into USC as a business
• 18:57
  - major,
• 18:58
  - and, and then I pivoted to biomedical engineering.
• 19:01
  - But I always kinda wanted in my brain
• 19:04
  - to do an MBA in the future, and
• 19:05
  - I finally got that opportunity,
• 19:07
  - later on in my career, when I was
• 19:09
  - a spine fellow and then later on in
• 19:11
  - my first year of practice.
• 19:12
  - But I think an MBA, a formal degree
• 19:15
  - is really helpful because that's a two year
• 19:17
  - time where where you get to really spend
• 19:18
  - time dedicated to learning, and it does take
• 19:21
  - time away from your practice or learning. It's
• 19:23
  - fine sometimes, but I feel like you really
• 19:25
  - have to dedicate that.
• 19:27
  - After I did that, you know, I was
• 19:29
  - continuously
• 19:30
  - involved with, leadership training either through the congress
• 19:33
  - of neurological surgeons through their leadership program.
• 19:36
  - But those are smaller programs, usually for a
• 19:38
  - week or a weekend,
• 19:41
  - and I really felt like I wasn't getting
• 19:42
  - the amount and time of exposure that I
• 19:44
  - wanted.
• 19:45
  - So I enrolled in this what's called surgical
• 19:48
  - leadership program, the SLP program at Harvard University.
• 19:52
  - It's a joint program
• 19:54
  - through Harvard University, Harvard Medical School, Harvard Kennedy
• 19:57
  - School of Government,
• 19:58
  - Harvard School of Public Policy,
• 20:00
  - but it's a one year leadership program mainly
• 20:04
  - online, but also,
• 20:05
  - several weeks in person. Every,
• 20:08
  - three months or so. We go there for
• 20:09
  - a week in Boston,
• 20:11
  - and we spend that time really honing in
• 20:13
  - on surgical leadership skills.
• 20:15
  - Most physician leaders are not surgeons, so, obviously,
• 20:18
  - you're gonna have most physician leaders out there
• 20:20
  - being medical doctors. And I feel like most
• 20:23
  - other,
• 20:24
  - leadership programs out there are really geared towards
• 20:27
  - nonsurgeon doctors.
• 20:29
  - And the great thing about this program that
• 20:31
  - is it is only surgeons. Only surgeons are
• 20:33
  - in the cohort.
• 20:34
  - All the lectures, all the faculty, everything is
• 20:36
  - run around surgeons. So it's all the stuff
• 20:38
  - that we are
• 20:39
  - critically wanting to learn and get better at.
• 20:41
  - It's not just a generalized
• 20:43
  - medical
• 20:45
  - leadership program. It's specifically designed for surgeons who
• 20:48
  - are wanting to advance their careers,
• 20:50
  - you know, honing in on how do you,
• 20:53
  - create relationships,
• 20:55
  - running, different types of conferences,
• 20:59
  - being involved with M and M's, how do
• 21:01
  - you mentor younger faculty,
• 21:03
  - all the aspects of how to run a
• 21:06
  - department, specifically a surgical department.
• 21:08
  - All those things,
• 21:10
  - are, you know, kind of wrapped in that
• 21:12
  - program. So I recommend, definitely putting a plug
• 21:14
  - in for that program. I think it's a
• 21:16
  - really good one year program where you can
• 21:19
  - really
• 21:20
  - spend a lot of time learning the
• 21:22
  - basics, fundamentals of business leadership, surgical leadership, and
• 21:26
  - then get into these one on one breakout
• 21:28
  - sessions during your weeks at Boston going over
• 21:32
  - leadership scenarios. And it's kinda nice because they
• 21:34
  - took out not only,
• 21:36
  - leadership scenarios within medicine, but also, like, one
• 21:39
  - example is, like, the Mount Everest hike or,
• 21:42
  - a previous, you know, business failures
• 21:45
  - or surgical failures, you know, looking at leadership
• 21:48
  - leaders in the past who have actually had
• 21:50
  - run amazing businesses. Like, we, there was this
• 21:52
  - one,
• 21:55
  - case study on a a leader who who
• 21:57
  - did great at Apple.
• 21:59
  - He was, one of the,
• 22:02
  - head of some of the technology groups over
• 22:03
  - there, but then when he kinda pivoted and
• 22:05
  - went into a different area and tried to
• 22:07
  - run Target, he failed. You know? And so,
• 22:11
  - analyzing how people fail, why they fail, you
• 22:13
  - know, are they trying to treat,
• 22:15
  - everything,
• 22:17
  - like a nail and use a hammer for
• 22:19
  - everything or, you know, you what other tools
• 22:21
  - do you need? You need a screwdriver? You
• 22:23
  - know? So I think,
• 22:24
  - you know, being involved with a program that
• 22:26
  - really takes you through that for a year
• 22:28
  - really is really helpful, and that helped me
• 22:29
  - out quite a bit.
• 22:31
  - I I think that's literally remarkable, and that
• 22:33
  - takes a lot of dedication to try and
• 22:34
  - dedication to try and do that kind of
• 22:36
  - lifelong learning. I'm gonna ask you the tough
• 22:38
  - question, doctor Hussain, and you'll let me know
• 22:39
  - if you're ready for the tough question.
• 22:41
  - I'm ready.
• 22:42
  - So so so here's the tough question. You've
• 22:44
  - been at Johns Hopkins. You've been at Harvard.
• 22:47
  - You know, which is a better academic institution?
• 22:50
  - You know, how do you come out in
• 22:51
  - that Harvard versus Johns Hopkins?
• 22:54
  - Oh, which is better in terms of
• 22:57
  - I think,
• 22:58
  - I think well, for me, honestly,
• 23:01
  - I think
• 23:02
  - and and, you know, maybe I'm giving you
• 23:04
  - the correct answer, but I try to make
• 23:05
  - sure that, you know, it's really comes from
• 23:08
  - the heart is that,
• 23:09
  - and for everyone out there, it's not necessarily
• 23:11
  - the name. Obviously,
• 23:13
  - names are important because that gives you a
• 23:15
  - surrogate to quality potentially that, you know, other
• 23:18
  - people
• 23:19
  - have thought of this institution as being a
• 23:20
  - good one, and and you can kind of
• 23:22
  - put rest your laurels on that a little
• 23:24
  - bit. But
• 23:25
  - I've seen people from great institutions not do
• 23:28
  - great work too, and so I think
• 23:30
  - that you've got to seek out opportunities
• 23:33
  - at great programs that have a good history
• 23:34
  - or reach history of doing good work.
• 23:37
  - And then once you're there, that's when the
• 23:39
  - real hard work begins. Seek out mentors, seek
• 23:42
  - out people, but also put in that extra
• 23:43
  - hard work to take advantage of the opportunity
• 23:46
  - that's there.
• 23:47
  - I think if you, you know, maybe go
• 23:49
  - don't go to a extremely well known institution,
• 23:52
  - but you take advantage of all the 100%
• 23:55
  - of the opportunities, 99% of the opportunities that
• 23:57
  - are there, you're gonna come up on top
• 23:59
  - versus someone who went to a great institution
• 24:01
  - and took advantage of 20 of the resources,
• 24:04
  - 20% of the opportunities. So I think it's,
• 24:06
  - you know, it's it's what you do,
• 24:09
  - day to day,
• 24:11
  - hour to hour, taking advantage of the opportunities
• 24:14
  - that are there. That's really gonna make or
• 24:16
  - break your success in whatever institution that you're
• 24:18
  - at.
• 24:19
  - Doctor Zane, I think you nailed that question
• 24:21
  - so well, actually, and so many people get
• 24:23
  - this wrong.
• 24:25
  - You and I have both seen people go
• 24:26
  - to great, great schools and not do tremendously
• 24:29
  - well professionally or in what charitable things they're
• 24:32
  - trying to do or whatever it is. And
• 24:34
  - sometimes they forget. It it's sort of what
• 24:36
  - got you there
• 24:38
  - is the starting point for that drive, determination,
• 24:40
  - intelligence
• 24:42
  - for the next career, for the rest of
• 24:43
  - your life. It's not the ending point. So
• 24:45
  - getting into Harvard,
• 24:47
  - finishing Harvard, going to Johns Hopkins,
• 24:50
  - finish Johns Hopkins,
• 24:52
  - that's not it. That's just a starting point
• 24:54
  - for the rest of your life
• 24:56
  - versus you've now made it. Is that a
• 24:58
  - fair assessment? 100%. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like,
• 25:00
  - you know, just like, you know, I how
• 25:02
  - people say it's the journey that counts. It's
• 25:04
  - the journey, the
• 25:05
  - lifelong learning, the experiences day to day that
• 25:08
  - really are are the marker of success. You
• 25:11
  - know? I I really truly believe
• 25:14
  - that the marker of success is the day
• 25:16
  - to day happiness of my patients in clinic,
• 25:19
  - pre op and post op, the day to
• 25:21
  - day experiences of having my fellows or my
• 25:24
  - residents have that moment, like, oh,
• 25:27
  - that's how you do an endoscopic discectomy. You
• 25:31
  - know? Those moments, all those continuous
• 25:34
  - little moments throughout life, that's the marker of
• 25:36
  - success. It's not the
• 25:38
  - winning of a title or, you know, getting
• 25:41
  - that grant. It's those moments every single day
• 25:44
  - of your life that are the real marker
• 25:46
  - of success, and I think people need to
• 25:48
  - whenever that happens, don't just dismiss it and
• 25:51
  - say, okay. That doesn't matter. My real goal
• 25:53
  - is up there. You know? Keep that
• 25:56
  - forward goal in mind, but also really enjoy
• 25:58
  - those moments every single day of your life.
• 26:00
  - Well, but your point on that your point
• 26:02
  - on that, I think, is so well stated.
• 26:04
  - This concept of getting the grant is great.
• 26:08
  - What really is the journey to get there
• 26:10
  - that really counted?
• 26:12
  - Getting it to Johns Hopkins is great, but
• 26:15
  - it's all those things you did preparing for
• 26:17
  - it, whether it was scores, involvement,
• 26:20
  - whatever it was, That's the journey that counts.
• 26:23
  - And and the the the getting into Johns
• 26:25
  - Hopkins might be a cherry on top, but
• 26:27
  - it's almost pieces of the journey
• 26:29
  - that that made you the right candidate that
• 26:31
  - really counts versus actually the degree or actually
• 26:34
  - this or that. I I think that is
• 26:36
  - so right on. Like, I'll I'll I'll to
• 26:39
  - your point,
• 26:40
  - like, you know, I do
• 26:42
  - a lot of these discussions,
• 26:44
  - and it's periodically,
• 26:46
  - I end up in a discussion with somebody
• 26:48
  - who wants to talk in-depth about
• 26:50
  - how they stay calm in the operating room
• 26:53
  - or how they use the golf coach or
• 26:55
  - the the the the the system hired a
• 26:57
  - golf coach to help, and how do you
• 26:59
  - think through doing things one piece at a
• 27:02
  - time through a process and a routine,
• 27:04
  - how you talk about sort of lifelong learning,
• 27:07
  - about how it's truly the journey, not just
• 27:10
  - the achievement.
• 27:11
  - And to me, I treasure those conversations where
• 27:13
  - I have that opportunity
• 27:15
  - to talk to someone who who themselves, I
• 27:17
  - don't always think so deeply, but to speak
• 27:19
  - to somebody who actually thinks and processes deeply
• 27:22
  - like yourself, it's a real pleasure.
• 27:24
  - I've had a great time. Thank you so
• 27:26
  - much, Scott. It's always been,
• 27:28
  - one of those things that I always wanted
• 27:30
  - to do, spend time with you, talk to
• 27:32
  - you. I really valued
• 27:34
  - all the stuff that you do for us
• 27:35
  - as surgeons, how you stick up for us,
• 27:37
  - how you really bring us together, and, really
• 27:40
  - teach us a lot. So I really appreciate
• 27:42
  - that. Well, thank you so much. No. I
• 27:44
  - deeply think that we need more surgeons and
• 27:46
  - more specialists and more subspecialists or we're gonna
• 27:49
  - be in a world of hurt in our
• 27:50
  - country and our in our world. And if
• 27:52
  - we don't if we don't train and produce,
• 27:54
  - and and help matriculate great great specialists and
• 27:57
  - surgeons and subspecialists,
• 27:59
  - it just is a daunting problem. Doctor Hussain,
• 28:01
  - what a great pleasure to visit with you.
• 28:03
  - Again, we're visiting today with doctor Namath
• 28:05
  - Hussain,
• 28:06
  - brilliant, brilliant leader. Thank you so much for
• 28:08
  - taking the time. Great. Thank you, Scott. Thank
• 28:10
  - you, everyone.