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Special: Jen and Paul Write a Job Ad (Update) · Roast the Post Podcast

• 0:01
  Hi,
• 0:01
  I'm Paul Austen Meneer,
• 0:02
  and this is Roast the Post,
• 0:04
  the story behind the bullet points.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Jen.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: So a couple of weeks ago,
• 0:13
  we did a little exploratory experiment type episode where we went through a
• 0:19
  job
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: post that you had written for your own use.
• 0:23
  You were hiring someone to work for you in the organization that you're with
• 0:27
  right now.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we kind of deconstructed it in real time and did some editing and
• 0:31
  talked about it and you know you made some changes and you took that away and
• 0:35
  you
• 0:36
  took a system that you built for hiring around that job post and you you tried
• 0:42
  it
• 0:43
  out here we are a few weeks later you've sent an offer to somebody give us a bit
• 0:47
  of
• 0:47
  the um bit of the update like how how did that all go tell us what happened with
• 0:52
  it
• 0:52
  absolutelyumsowedohaveanacceptedoffersomebodyisstartinguhjustina
• 0:57
  couple of weeks here very excited i definitely feel like we made the right
• 1:01
  choice
• 1:02
  um when we went through that job posting and you know you had your
• 1:06
  recommendations
• 1:07
  and we changed some things some things i changed some things i didn't just
• 1:10
  basedon
• 1:11
  me knowing our organization and what what might not fly internally um maybe
• 1:17
  like
• 1:17
  duetopoliticsorstructureorwhateversosomethingsididn'tnecessarily
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: change, but took note of and some things I absolutely did.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the biggest things was changing the job title.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: We had executive assistant and we changed it to operations coordinator.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that was just a really good call.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that worked out well in our favor.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: We also didn't post it on LinkedIn as a job that people could apply to.
• 1:44
  We posted it as a PDF attached to a job posting and then sent it out to our
• 1:50
  company's networks.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so the employees sent it out and then other people connected to our
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: organization also sent it out,
• 1:59
  which helped to minimize how many applications we actually received
• 2:04
  becausearole
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: like this,
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: as we know,
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Administrative,
• 2:07
  you'regoingtogetalotofpeoplebecausealotofpeoplearequalifiedtodo
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: this type of work.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's a lower barrier to entry.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you will receive, you're likely to receive more applicants.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: So this kind of mitigated that a little bit.
• 2:19
  We didn't get thousands of applications like we would have,
• 2:23
  but we got,
• 2:25
  I don't know,
• 2:26
  maybe 100.
• 2:28
  The downside to that,
• 2:30
  which I learned,
• 2:31
  was that you can't just close the job posting.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:34
  Like on on LinkedIn,
• 2:36
  you can close the job posting and you're no longer receiving applicants.
• 2:40
  ButIrealizedalittlebittoolatethatyoucan'tdothatbecausenowit'sout
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: into the network.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: So so people would keep applying, keep applying.
• 2:51
  And I was like,
• 2:52
  oh,
• 2:52
  dang,
• 2:52
  we're already in like the second round of interviews.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just said.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: I just replied.
• 2:57
  I replied to every single applicant and just let them know that we were no
• 3:03
  longer
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: receiving applications.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: I,
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: I got one response that was very angry,
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: saying,
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: how do I even stand a chance in this market?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I haven't had a chance to reply to that because I went on vacation.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I was away for two weeks.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was tough.
• 3:24
  I want to go back and I want to reply and I want to say I understand that this is
• 3:29
  how you feel.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's very frustrating.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: The posting is closed and you haven't even been reviewed yet.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I had some people who.
• 3:36
  who shared personal information about themselves because that's part of
• 3:40
  whatwe
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: asked for in the job posting was,
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: like what's something that interests you?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: What's something about yourself?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: What's something that you're proud of that you've created?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's a recipe.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's something that you crocheted, whatever it is.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: So people were sharing parts of themselves.
• 3:57
  And so that's also part of the reason why I wanted to make sure that there was a
• 4:01
  human touch.
• 4:01
  And I responded to every single person because I asked that of them and I had to
• 4:05
  give that back.
• 4:07
  We also anticipated that that would be a really heavy lift for me being a team
• 4:10
  of
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: one and having no applicant tracking software whatsoever.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it did take out a lot of my time, but because it wasn't
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: an open job posting that I felt like that was manageable.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like that was manageable.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: I did have a template of responses to people,
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: but then I customized it based on the personal touch that they gave.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that was interesting.
• 4:36
  People really appreciated the human approach to the job posting,
• 4:42
  even people who were rejected.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: really took the time to respond then and say,
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate the human approach you've taken to this.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is very different than what we're used to seeing.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a lot of that too.
• 4:56
  the candidates which felt good um you know and then there are the people who
• 5:00
  wanted
• 5:00
  more okay but give me feedback about why i wasn't chosen um and those again
• 5:06
  it's
• 5:06
  been two weeks i haven't had a chance it's been even longer i haven't had a
• 5:09
  chance
• 5:10
  to reply because i was away on vacation and then we were interviewing and
• 5:12
  tryingto
• 5:13
  move quickly through the process so i feel like i've left some people hanging
• 5:16
  andi
• 5:17
  dointendtogobackumtotogivethemamorepersonalizedresponseumjust
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: haven't had the chance yet
• 5:25
  we also provided for the people going through the interview process we
• 5:29
  providedwe
• 5:30
  didn'tdoaphonescreeningwhatsoeverwejustwentstraightintoroundone
• 5:34
  interview so that meant that i more rigorously screened their resumes um and
• 5:41
  after
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: round one i gave the unsuccessful candidates feedback
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: on why they weren't successful.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then I gave the people moving on to the next round very,
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: very personalized feedback about what maybe didn't work so well,
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: what was really great and what they could do more of in the next round.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: And for all cases, they were given
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: as much information as possible.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what we're looking for.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what we're assessing.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Here are the types of questions that we will be asking you.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Here are the people you're going to be meeting with and
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: All like all of that information was given ahead of time.
• 6:22
  And I know some people don't like that because they want to almost see I was
• 6:26
  going
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: to say they want to like have a gotcha moment,
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: but it's not that they just want to see how people think on their feet.
• 6:32
  And I think if people are successful in their roles of,
• 6:37
  you know,
• 6:37
  of what they've done before,
• 6:40
  Like,
• 6:40
  you know,
• 6:41
  I've been in an ops coordinator role for like the past three years.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 6:45
  obviously you can think on your feet and like that's not something that I feel
• 6:50
  like
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: we need to be assessing in interviews.
• 6:52
  So I felt comfortable giving them the information ahead of time and people
• 6:56
  felt
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: really appreciative of that as well.
• 7:00
  I'm trying to think of what else I can tell you with our successful candidate.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we all know how I feel about references and I'm not for references,
• 7:08
  but it was important to our managing partner that we have reference checks.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I just said, is there someone you've worked with who you feel
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: comfortable with me asking a few questions too.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: because people are prepared to have references,
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: they had someone,
• 7:24
  I reached out to that individual and explained to them how we were trying to do
• 7:27
  a
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: human approach to this.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: And basically like, what, how do you feel about this person?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like what, what can we do?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Not like what,
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: what we should be cautious about for them but like what can we do as an
• 7:39
  organization to ensure that they are successful in this role and then the
• 7:44
  person
• 7:44
  the reference replied and said i really like the way that you're doing things
• 7:47
  a
• 7:47
  little bit differently um and just gave me some really lovely information
• 7:52
  aboutthe
• 7:53
  person we're hiring and um helpful to us helpful for planning onboarding um
• 8:00
  yeahit
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: was it's been a cool a cool approach
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really,
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: firstly,
• 8:06
  it was a very bold choice to take this human-centered process approach to
• 8:12
  hiring.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like you had your job advertised for a few days sort of thing.
• 8:18
  It went out through kind of peer-to-peer networks and you still got 100
• 8:22
  applicants.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's a lot.
• 8:25
  Replying to each of those 100 applications is not exactly a nothing
• 8:31
  commitment of time.
• 8:32
  But then taking that one step further and providing feedback to people who
• 8:38
  were
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: successful going into that second round,
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: that's a whole other level.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately,
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: that would be super useful for the people going into that second round of
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: interviews.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like you have to think about
• 8:53
  are you trying to exclude people from this process and and filter them out or
• 8:59
  are
• 8:59
  you trying to include the best person and give everyone an equal shot at being
• 9:05
  the
• 9:06
  best candidate and filter that person in philosophically kind of two
• 9:11
  different
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: approaches right this way
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're absolutely right.
• 9:16
  Like this is the whole the whole philosophy was that we want you to get the job.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: We want anyone who's applied to get the job.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's only one job, though.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it is it's filtering that right person in instead of excluding.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And what I said to the candidates who weren't successful,
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: who made it through like and we did two rounds.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: That was it.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Two round interviews was that
• 9:36
  it was more about what we discovered about our needs through the interview
• 9:42
  process
• 9:43
  right like through through the interview we discovered okay maybe we have
• 9:47
  thisgap
• 9:47
  or this person has something that that we don't have or something that we need
• 9:53
  and
• 9:53
  that's what we discovered it wasn't anything about them necessarily that
• 9:58
  they
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: didn't do right it was about
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: this one person rose to the top because of our needs organizationally.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Really, really, that's what it is.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Very, very interesting.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Very interesting.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: I would be,
• 10:15
  I feel like we're going to come back to this topic again at various points over
• 10:18
  the
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: year and just like chit chat about it.
• 10:19
  Maybe we should write a book about the process and put together something to
• 10:24
  help
• 10:24
  peoplefigureouthowtocreatekindofmorehumanhiringsystemsintheirown
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: organizations,
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: because it's not the normal story.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Very,
• 10:32
  very rarely do you hear of an organization doing something like this and
• 10:37
  really
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: putting the experience of the candidate at the forefront.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Usually it's the opposite.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Usually it's the ATS black hole.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Usually it's the ghosting.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Usually it's this and that.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I couldn't have done it if I didn't work at a small organization.
• 10:51
  Like if I didn't have a million things on my plate,
• 10:54
  it just wouldn't have been possible.
• 10:56
  becauseIhadtheperfectenvironmenttokindoftrythisoutIdidbecause
• 11:02
  otherwise I just don't think it would be possible unless you had people
• 11:05
  dedicated
• 11:06
  like dedicated recruiters or talent acquisition or whatever to do it and
• 11:10
  thenthey
• 11:11
  hadthetimeandspacetotobeabletodoittheotherthingIshouldaddtoois
• 11:16
  thatthispersonwhowassuccessfulfortheroleandeveryoneweinterviewed
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: actually no one was an internal referral
• 11:23
  nooneknewsomeoneandIknowthatthat'sthewaythatthingsaregoingis
• 11:27
  everyone we've had these conversations too like even offline Paul and I
• 11:31
  abouthow
• 11:32
  the way of the future like getting your foot in a door in an organization is
• 11:35
  having
• 11:35
  some kind of internal referral like someone knows someone and then they get
• 11:40
  youin
• 11:41
  and that's not what happened in this case nobody knew this individual
• 11:44
  whatsoeveror
• 11:46
  anyoftheindividualsinterviewingnotthatItriedtoexcludeanyonebut
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: that it just didn't happen.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't happen that way.
• 11:55
  Now,
• 11:55
  if an employee had said,
• 11:57
  oh,
• 11:57
  I know this person,
• 11:58
  can you interview them or whatever?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I probably would have because otherwise, what's the point, right?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's,
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: I want to show trust to our employees as well,
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: that I believe that they would recommend someone great for the role.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: But that didn't really happen.
• 12:14
  So this was somebody who's absolutely unknown to our organization,
• 12:19
  whichtomebringsin
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: more diversity and yeah,
• 12:25
  lessens that chance of having like that echo chamber kind of situation
• 12:31
  happening.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, there you have it, folks.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 12:35
  I think that this gives hope for the people who are not natural born
• 12:39
  networkersand
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: hate networking.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: There is still something out there for you.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to put the link to the original episode in the show notes.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: So you can go back and check it out if you want to.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And stay tuned for updates on this topic again in the future,
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: because I really do feel like we're going to come back to it.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining us for another episode of Roast the Post,
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: the story behind the bullet points.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: If today's banter gave you something to think about,
• 13:07
  or at least made you feel better about the last wild job posting you read,
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: make sure you're subscribed.
• 13:12
  HitusuponYouTubeorfollowtheshowonyourgo-topodcastplatformsonew
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: episodes actually reach you.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you've got a job posting you want us to roast,
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: confusing,
• 13:22
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• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: or strangely perfect,
• 13:24
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• 13:25
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• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Tap that link in the show notes for more.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next time with a brand new post to unravel.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Until then, stay frosty.