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The Administration Killed DEI. Now What? · Speak In Flow

• 0:03
  Melinda Lee: Welcome, dear listeners, to the Speak and Flow podcast, where we dive into unique stories and experiences to help you during these high-impact moments as leaders. Today, we are talking about DEI.
• 0:17
  Melinda Lee: And I don't even know if I can use that term, DEI, anymore, which is unfortunate, but I have an amazing leader, his name is Brian McLaughlin, and we're going to talk about how we can continue to carry the conversation through film, TV, because he's a TV producer.
• 0:35
  Melinda Lee: And co-president of Emerald Elephant Entertainment.
• 0:40
  Melinda Lee: He's produced multiple feature films acquired for distribution, with titles streaming on Amazon Prime, and has developed both comedy and drama series currently being pitched to networks and other platforms. I'm so glad to have Brian here. He's a long-time consulting development producer for over 100 films and TV projects.
• 1:03
  Melinda Lee: A member of the Producers Guild of America, and active member and panel moderator within the industry.
• 1:11
  Melinda Lee: I'm excited. He's a creative, he has worked and served in senior productions and COVID compliance roles for major studios including Disney, Hulu, ABC, and OWN, a former Armor Major and Afghanistan veteran.
• 1:29
  Melinda Lee: He continues to support veterans, entering entertainment while teaching, writing, and mentoring the next generation of storytellers.
• 1:39
  Melinda Lee: Brian, I am so happy that you're here. Welcome to the Speak and Flow podcast.
• 1:45
  Brian McLaughlin: Thank you, Melinda. It's great to be here.
• 1:47
  Melinda Lee: Thank you so much. As I mentioned earlier, DEI is something that
• 1:53
  Melinda Lee: We no longer are supposed to talk about, or supposed to do, and, but I think it's important for us as leaders to understand, in moments like these, what can we do? How can we use our voice to still continue to bring people forward? Or, we can also use our voice to separate people.
• 2:12
  Melinda Lee: And…
• 2:14
  Melinda Lee: And that's what this conversation is about, because I think that sometimes when people think about DEI, they don't know what to do with it, we don't know what's happening, a lot has changed, and so I'm really appreciative for the conversation today. And so let's just kick it off with one
• 2:32
  Melinda Lee: question. The first question being, If someone were to listen to this episode, Around DEI.
• 2:40
  Melinda Lee: What could change in their life?
• 2:44
  Brian McLaughlin: Well, I like to think that,
• 2:47
  Brian McLaughlin: people will be less confrontational and angry and even fearful, you know, because a lot of… I think a lot of our reactions, especially lately, come from those sort of sources. And maybe it's the fault of pundits and talking heads who like to drive
• 3:07
  Brian McLaughlin: audience retention through, conflict and, division. But I, I really, think that it's…
• 3:16
  Brian McLaughlin: that DEI shouldn't be rooted in any of that. I mean, really, it's just trying to level the playing field, and
• 3:23
  Brian McLaughlin: The understanding of the reality that people of different backgrounds and different demographics have different experiences in the workplace and in society is not always understood by the other
• 3:39
  Brian McLaughlin: folks, and so if we can have a greater understanding, of those truths.
• 3:45
  Brian McLaughlin: statistically, supported and supported through research, then I think that DEI will be more accepted, because everyone
• 3:53
  Brian McLaughlin: what's a fair playing field, a level playing field, and I don't think that people will object to it so much if they understand that that's what it's all about. But, you know, people will say, oh, it's been well over 100 years since slavery, why are Black people still complaining? And the fact is that, you know, within my lifetime, much of my lifetime, there were things like, you know, redlining in housing and mortgages.
• 4:18
  Brian McLaughlin: And, you know, that's not very long ago. And also,
• 4:23
  Brian McLaughlin: Just, there was a very recent study about,
• 4:26
  Brian McLaughlin: taking resumes and just changing the name to be more, Black-sounding, and… and then giving them to people and saying, what do you think about these candidates? And everything else is exactly the same, and the reactions were, you know, more negative to… for the Black-sounding names, and it's just a reality. And sadly, it's because of, I think to a great extent, because of my industry and how images have been
• 4:49
  Brian McLaughlin: presented over the decades. And so.
• 4:53
  Brian McLaughlin: to, present more positive images of people of color, of women, of, disabled folks, of LGBT, community. I think that, and not necessarily positive, but just, like, equal, like, like, represents society the way, on screen, the way it is in real life, and, that's what DEI really is about, in my mind. It's not…
• 5:16
  Brian McLaughlin: what people might call a woke Disney agenda. It's like, oh, this is actually, better for our film and TV project, better for the audience, and, you know, better for the world.
• 5:30
  Melinda Lee: So do you think the people that are pushing back, are they pushing back because they think that it's already a level playing field, and they think that it's not necessary anymore?
• 5:42
  Brian McLaughlin: I think that's… I believe that's the case, just from conversations I've had personally. I… I really hesitate to say anyone is being a racist, or a sexist, or other kind of…
• 5:52
  Brian McLaughlin: prejudice. I think it's really just about lack of exposure to the experiences that other people have had. And I've been involved in, even before it was called DEI, with this sort of thing since 2005 or so, through my university and the company I used to work for, and then throughout my film and TV career. And,
• 6:15
  Brian McLaughlin: the conversations I have with people who have gone through those life experiences is very different from people who have not. And it's just a matter of how do we communicate
• 6:28
  Brian McLaughlin: diversity to people who haven't had to experience those things, and make… let that… help them to understand that it's… it is leveling, a playing field that is not level. One of my friends, Francis Kazi, did a great documentary called The Long Shadow about how… tracing from slavery to today, and how, African American folks have to,
• 6:50
  Brian McLaughlin: Still deal with a lot of things that are…
• 6:53
  Brian McLaughlin: you know, can be… can really be, connected back to slavery and a lot of things that have happened since slavery. And… and, I mean, I already was leaning towards that understanding, but to see the history really depicted on screen.
• 7:09
  Brian McLaughlin: was an eye-opener for me, and that's what I think is an important thing to do, is just open people's…
• 7:14
  Brian McLaughlin: Eyes, and not that people try to have closed eyes, but it just hasn't always been communicated well.
• 7:21
  Melinda Lee: Yeah, what would you say to those people that say, hey, it's done? Like you said, slavery's been 100 years ago, let it go, it's done, it's over.
• 7:29
  Brian McLaughlin: Right.
• 7:30
  Melinda Lee: are in a level playing field now. What would you say to them?
• 7:33
  Brian McLaughlin: I mean, and it doesn't have to be slavery, it can even look at gender. If you watch Mad Men and the world depicted in that decade, and how women were treated and viewed, it was like, oh my god, this is,
• 7:48
  Brian McLaughlin: this is not how we look at women now. Women are hopefully, able to contribute to society equally.
• 7:56
  Brian McLaughlin: To their male counterparts, and… and that's great for society. It's great for organizations when the best leader of any demographic is the one who's there. And, but because the…
• 8:10
  Brian McLaughlin: I don't know, I don't want to say the system, because it's not, like, it's not… it's not a policy thing, but when you… it's just human nature.
• 8:18
  Brian McLaughlin: We tend to favor people who
• 8:22
  Brian McLaughlin: we can relate to the best, meaning they look like us. And so a man, a white man, is going to, given everything else being equal, probably pick the white man, and, for a role, and… or for a promotion, or for hiring, whatever it is. So, it's…
• 8:38
  Brian McLaughlin: that's why there… there is this leg up that, and then it repeats itself over and over again for decades, and that's… that's why there's, in leadership roles, there are very… so, you know, in CEO roles, there are very few women, just statistically. And it's not because there have been policies and corporations saying.
• 8:58
  Brian McLaughlin: don't promote women. No, it's just that people… it's human nature, and so, to say, well, let's…
• 9:05
  Brian McLaughlin: have a certain… a quota, and I don't… maybe that's a negative word, but, you know, to try to purposefully
• 9:11
  Brian McLaughlin: Favor people who, or have more representation in your leadership.
• 9:16
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 9:17
  Brian McLaughlin: is a better way of saying it, then it helps everyone, because those are really good candidates, and they will contribute in a way that is different from their male, or white, or able… non-disabled counterparts, you know? So…
• 9:32
  Brian McLaughlin: Bringing in all that, all that,
• 9:35
  Brian McLaughlin: divergence of thought is… is beneficial, and… and, so that's why… that's… that's the reason we're doing it, not because, oh, we want to look like we're social justice warriors, you know? It's… it's like, this is good for the organization, it's good for the individuals, and it's also good for overall. It's good for business.
• 9:54
  Melinda Lee: Do you think that it's time, though? Because we've had this requirement, DEI requirement, for quite some time, and so it could be that the administration says, now that we're all aware, let's not have a quota, a requirement, let's just do it because it makes sense, because it's good for the organization.
• 10:12
  Brian McLaughlin: Yeah, and that's… I…
• 10:15
  Brian McLaughlin: agree with that, that concept, but I don't think that, in practice, that there's, you know, complete truth to that, or complete accuracy. I don't mean… I don't want to say people… make it sound like some people are lying. It's just a matter of,
• 10:32
  Brian McLaughlin: When you have programs like Affirmative action and DEI.
• 10:39
  Brian McLaughlin: And some people get help.
• 10:41
  Brian McLaughlin: than the…
• 10:42
  Brian McLaughlin: reaction from the people who are not those people is that, oh, we lost out because of that. So, when one person gains, another person has to lose, at least that's the perception. And so, if you get rid of that, then I think that those losses will, reverse. And, you know, people have used terms like the Great Replacement.
• 11:02
  Brian McLaughlin: theory, I think, is the accurate wording, but… which just isn't a reality, but it's a scare attack, and I think fear is a big thing, so,
• 11:11
  Brian McLaughlin: fear of losing out to someone else, but I… I think the benefits, you know, particularly with everyone struggling right now, and everyone worried about
• 11:20
  Brian McLaughlin: their employment and their finances to say, well, why is that person getting an advantage, is a natural human reaction. But it's… the fact is they aren't getting an advantage, it's a matter of taking away the disadvantage that they've always faced.
• 11:33
  Melinda Lee: So, I mean, is the timing right?
• 11:35
  Brian McLaughlin: I wish that I could say that, yeah, it is great, let's stop worrying about that, but I think the problem still exists. It's a different problem than it was in, say, the 60s, or in between. You know, the problem keeps… or the…
• 11:48
  Brian McLaughlin: The effort keeps evolving as the situation evolves.
• 11:56
  Melinda Lee: And what do you think we could give to… what advice would you give to the people that are the disadvantaged?
• 12:04
  Brian McLaughlin: Hang in there, keep, basically.
• 12:09
  Brian McLaughlin: I would say, rather than only looking for
• 12:16
  Brian McLaughlin: the assistance of what was called DEI.
• 12:21
  Brian McLaughlin: So still try to take advantage of those opportunities, but also create your own opportunities to the extent possible, which everyone has to do. But, just don't be discouraged by the doors
• 12:34
  Brian McLaughlin: not being as open as you would hope, or as open as you see other people getting. Just, you know, create your own content in my industry, you know, create content that tells your stories. And we all have to do that. It's more authentic when you tell a story based on what you're passionate about, rather than what you think will be popular.
• 12:57
  Brian McLaughlin: And the same is… applies to DEI, like, tell your stories that come from your life, rather than what you think will be a popular story.
• 13:07
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 13:08
  Brian McLaughlin: Yeah, I think that'll help.
• 13:10
  Melinda Lee: I agree, I mean, because that shows our diversity, our perspective, our unique perspective that is different. So it is our responsibility to continue to share that in a very compelling, confident way to demonstrate how you can add value.
• 13:25
  Brian McLaughlin: Right. I mean, if you look at shows, like,
• 13:28
  Brian McLaughlin: Watson, which has a male Black lead, Matt Locke, which has two women leads, one of them who's older, one of them who's Black. High potential has a female lead who's very smart, but then the rest of the cast is very diverse, but it's not in your face. It's not like, we're gonna do this to be really cool and diverse, and… or you look at most of the HGTV shows.
• 13:52
  Brian McLaughlin: You know, these house renovation and house hunting shows, they're just… they represent all kinds of people, because all kinds of people
• 14:00
  Brian McLaughlin: hunt for houses, but… but even the hosts, you know, are women, strong women, making, bold decisions, and, and there's a… seems to be a large LGBT representation in the casting and in the, and in the, you know, the… each episode, the people who are on each episode. And…
• 14:19
  Brian McLaughlin: I think it's… they do well for reasons like the fact that they represent real life.
• 14:25
  Brian McLaughlin: And I don't know if there was ever any pushback in those networks to say, hey, how about if we have a black lead here, or a white lead, or a more attractive person, you know?
• 14:38
  Brian McLaughlin: which is another thing, you know, just body image is something we don't talk about too much in DEI, but that's a thing. Yeah, so if you go out there…
• 14:48
  Melinda Lee: Yeah, they, like, select a certain body type.
• 14:52
  Brian McLaughlin: Yeah, right.
• 14:53
  Melinda Lee: Yeah.
• 14:54
  Brian McLaughlin: So it's, you know, if we go out there and we create content with things like that, images in mind, representation in mind, without saying, well, we're not going to put any, we're not going to disadvantage,
• 15:08
  Brian McLaughlin: wait, I'm saying it, I'm putting… I'm saying this wrong. We don't… you don't want to have in mind, let's disadvantage the people who have been getting these rules, but you're just casting a broader net.
• 15:19
  Melinda Lee: Yeah. Why do you think there's not as many Asians?
• 15:22
  Melinda Lee: In film.
• 15:23
  Brian McLaughlin: I honestly, just as being half Asian myself, I will say that it's possibly because of the
• 15:34
  Brian McLaughlin: Family pressure to go into a more traditional and less risky
• 15:39
  Brian McLaughlin: field. You know, entertainment is not exactly the most secure financial path. Right, right. And so, there are plenty of folks out there. I'm in a couple of groups that are Asian Americans in entertainment, and, you know, there is a lot of
• 15:58
  Brian McLaughlin: representation, not necessarily on the screen yet, but people trying to make it. And I think that that's getting better, but when shows like,
• 16:09
  Brian McLaughlin: What was it, oh, there was one that didn't do very well,
• 16:16
  Brian McLaughlin: Okay, anyway, but there's… Interior Chinatown is one that I really liked. I don't think it did great. Palm Sunday that,
• 16:25
  Brian McLaughlin: Joe Coyd did, I think, you know, it was a film that didn't do well, and then people will say, oh, that was not great, and so we're not going to do that again. But there are also films like Beef, or series like Beef, that were fantastic, and… and, you know, many other examples, that, I think more and more it's becoming,
• 16:44
  Brian McLaughlin: we're seeing more Asian faces. And also in producing, and, you know, off-camera, producing, and, you know, the folks who did, everything, everywhere, all at once.
• 16:55
  Brian McLaughlin: you know, there's other been a lot of… there's been a lot of progress, but like you said, it's… I don't think we've reached the point where it represents American society, and certainly not global society.
• 17:06
  Melinda Lee: And so tell us how, now that DEI is no longer an initiative or endeavors that organizations, can roll out, how can… how are you contributing in film, in a sense where we continue to lead the conversation of bringing people together, DEI, how do you do that through film?
• 17:28
  Brian McLaughlin: Well, it's… the real easy way, or the… maybe the easier way, not real easy, but easier, is to explain how to the buyers and to the financiers,
• 17:39
  Brian McLaughlin: diverse…
• 17:41
  Brian McLaughlin: the representation on screen does better financially. It's just… it's just been shown over and over again that Gina Davis Institute does all kinds of
• 17:50
  Brian McLaughlin: research on this, and reports, and and the studio networks are listening, and they're saying, okay, I get it now. There are more… when we represent society on screen the way it exists in the world, people can connect to that show better, and can feel,
• 18:08
  Brian McLaughlin: more a part of it, and so they'll watch it more, and so you have greater viewership, greater box office, and it's just… it's just smart for business. It's also, as I kind of alluded to, talking about the corporate world, the same is true in the entertainment industry, when
• 18:24
  Brian McLaughlin: In the corporate world, or off-camera, you have people of all
• 18:30
  Brian McLaughlin: demographics, you're gonna have broader input, thought input, ideas, and, and, you know, stories, story-wise, and so it's going to be a better product. If you're gonna write about
• 18:47
  Brian McLaughlin: a disabled person, either even just as a character, that doesn't have to be the main story, then have a disabled person in the writer's room who can represent that point of view and add some things that will be…
• 19:00
  Brian McLaughlin: more authentic and more, eye-opening for a lot of people. Like, oh, I didn't know they, that that's how they feel, or they, or they behave, or they run into those problems, you know, things like that. Same thing in the corporate world, you know? As you have more,
• 19:16
  Brian McLaughlin: a broader demographic in the leadership roles, it'll… you're gonna have a better product, and it's gonna go better. So that's, you know, that's a big… I think that's… it's not about being altruistic and helping people out, always, you know, it's also about the business sense.
• 19:31
  Melinda Lee: And then to society, you know, it's…
• 19:34
  Brian McLaughlin: I don't know if you've heard of the Scully Effect, but after the X-Files became popular.
• 19:39
  Brian McLaughlin: women, girls started entering the STEM fields at a much higher rate, because they were motivated by this fictional character, Dana Scully, and they're like, oh, women can go into science? And they're like, that looks like a lot of fun. And, you know, it really had a continuing, you know, even to this day, effect on
• 19:56
  Brian McLaughlin: on society because of one TV show. Or you look at, just recently, I met,
• 20:04
  Brian McLaughlin: the creator of…
• 20:06
  Brian McLaughlin: Oh, some… so many great TV shows. Mary Tyler Moore, Rhoda back in the day, I don't… and they… those… those shows changed how American society looked at women in the workplace and in society. And, it was, you know, one person's creation.
• 20:23
  Brian McLaughlin: And it was very entertaining, but people could connect to it, and they're like, oh, a single woman who's…
• 20:29
  Brian McLaughlin: who's… who's living by herself, that can be a TV show, and it can be a real-life acceptable thing, and… and she can have an opinion in the workplace of this crazy, and you know, and now to think of that, it's like, oh, no, of course that all makes sense.
• 20:46
  Brian McLaughlin: So, I mean, those are, me as a filmmaker and a TV creator, I mean, I want to have that kind of an impact, you know?
• 20:53
  Melinda Lee: Oh, yeah. I mean, you do, and that's what film does, it just.
• 20:57
  Brian McLaughlin: Yeah.
• 20:57
  Melinda Lee: connect to people at such deep levels.
• 21:00
  Brian McLaughlin: too high.
• 21:01
  Melinda Lee: In such motivating ways and inspiring ways, because.
• 21:05
  Brian McLaughlin: Yeah.
• 21:05
  Melinda Lee: Essentially put ourselves into these characters, and we can.
• 21:08
  Melinda Lee: ourselves in these characters, and they're.
• 21:10
  Brian McLaughlin: Right.
• 21:10
  Melinda Lee: There's the Scully effect, right?
• 21:12
  Brian McLaughlin: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:12
  Melinda Lee: And it's just a powerful way of, using this to remind people that there are, like you said, proof that diversity
• 21:22
  Melinda Lee: is important, the diversity, that's what people look for, they crave for, and it also makes business sense. Yeah. Of all… that's what people want, and that's
• 21:34
  Melinda Lee: I think at a deep level, that's how we operate the best.
• 21:38
  Brian McLaughlin: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:39
  Melinda Lee: together.
• 21:40
  Brian McLaughlin: And it should also be just organic.
• 21:42
  Melinda Lee: Yeah, and that's where the DEI conversation is a little… that's where the debate…
• 21:48
  Brian McLaughlin: Yeah, yeah, right.
• 21:49
  Melinda Lee: I, right, and the conversation, is that if we have this requirement in place, is it organic?
• 21:55
  Brian McLaughlin: Yep.
• 21:56
  Brian McLaughlin: You know, if you're going out and saying, I'm gonna do this because it's a… it'll meet my DEI goals, it's gonna fail. It'll fail, you know?
• 22:04
  Melinda Lee: It's just like.
• 22:05
  Brian McLaughlin: saying, I'm gonna go create a horror story, even though I don't like horrors, because horrors are popular.
• 22:09
  Melinda Lee: Oh, you're gonna.
• 22:09
  Brian McLaughlin: fail at it, because it's not…
• 22:11
  Melinda Lee: Not with your p.
• 22:11
  Brian McLaughlin: passionate about, it's not real. I have a project, a film project, that's a true story about a military guy who had a very heroic day in Afghanistan, and it's a guy I worked with, a real-life person, and he also happens to be African American, or he would say Dominican-American, but he's a Black guy, and
• 22:31
  Brian McLaughlin: Yes, so that's… does make it a DEI project, and it will be the only… the first.
• 22:37
  Brian McLaughlin: true combat story about an individual Black soldier. The first one. It'll be the first one.
• 22:45
  Melinda Lee: I can't even believe that.
• 22:48
  Brian McLaughlin: Yeah.
• 22:48
  Melinda Lee: fun.
• 22:49
  Brian McLaughlin: But it's… but it's not because I'm trying to…
• 22:51
  Melinda Lee: Great.
• 22:51
  Brian McLaughlin: achieve that goal, it's because there's just this amazing story, and I want to honor this incredible human being. Yeah. And there's another project that I have that, is set in the International Space Station, so all the
• 23:04
  Brian McLaughlin: most of the cast will be of all different, demographics from around the world, but that was be… I did that not for the goal of having a bunch of different
• 23:13
  Brian McLaughlin: people who looked, you know, internationally. I wanted to,
• 23:18
  Brian McLaughlin: I didn't want to make it a NASA story, because this isn't something NASA is working towards, so it wouldn't be believable, so I created this International Space Station, just to make the story, more sensible.
• 23:31
  Brian McLaughlin: And the fact that it then also involved people from around the world, just because it's international, was a byproduct, not the goal. And so it's a way of, so it does achieve a DEI goal, if you had those goals, but it's done because it serves the story better.
• 23:50
  Melinda Lee: Yeah, yeah, so regardless of whatever our environment or administration is telling us.
• 23:55
  Melinda Lee: I want to have one last question for you.
• 23:58
  Melinda Lee: What… when we do this correctly, and we still have opportunity to do this correctly, right now, what changes in our world?
• 24:07
  Brian McLaughlin: Yeah, I think understanding changes. I think that people, when schools
• 24:14
  Brian McLaughlin: made it a goal to have a more diverse student body. Then you had people interacting with each other, living together, going to school, class together every day.
• 24:23
  Brian McLaughlin: with people they had never run into before at home. And so they became friends, they became, they under… they visited the other… their friends' homes that they had never gone to, and so there was more… it created more understanding, it strengthened the student body, and it strengthened…
• 24:41
  Brian McLaughlin: Their education, not necessarily
• 24:43
  Brian McLaughlin: the classwork, but the, but just how they… their mind was broadened. And I think that's good, whether it happens in school, or the workplace, or on screen. I think it's a… it's a benefit that, helps all of society. It helps individuals, but it also helps society overall. And so that's what I…
• 25:01
  Brian McLaughlin: think that the intention is supposed to be working towards, and maybe we've gotten off track at times, or maybe we haven't communicated it perfectly.
• 25:11
  Brian McLaughlin: But I think that's why we should continue to have these programs, whether we rename them or we mold them differently, whatever the outcome is of the current shift in
• 25:26
  Brian McLaughlin: policy, or even within organizations.
• 25:30
  Brian McLaughlin: Yeah. I think… but the goals should still exist, and I think the benefits will still come from those goals.
• 25:36
  Melinda Lee: I believe so, and I think that this episode, I've learned a lot, and I'm glad that we're able to still continue this conversation, this important conversation of, of, the values that DEI brings, right?
• 25:50
  Melinda Lee: trust together, right? No matter, you know, what we look like, no matter where we've come from, like, continuing to build trust, and collaborating together, and to address some of these very tough
• 26:02
  Melinda Lee: tough, complex situations that we have in the world today, and so, I think we're a lot better together, and so thank you so much, Brian, for the time.
• 26:11
  Brian McLaughlin: Thank you, Melinda.
• 26:12
  Melinda Lee: Yes.
• 26:13
  Brian McLaughlin: My pleasure.
• 26:13
  Melinda Lee: Really fun, and
• 26:16
  Melinda Lee: So, and I also want to say to the audience today, too, may you take this golden nuggets, implement them today. This is an important time in our society where we are faced with a lot, and, but with this conversation that we had today, I hope that you're inspired to continue to bring people together and use your voice to do that, and to make a positive difference in the world.
• 26:39
  Melinda Lee: Lots of love to you, thank you so much for joining, and thank you, Brian, again, for your time.
• 26:45
  Brian McLaughlin: My pleasure, Mother.
• 26:46
  Melinda Lee: Take care. Bye-bye.
• 26:47
  Brian McLaughlin: Bye.