Latest / Inside Politics / Tony Abbott on running for Senate, AUKUS and cultural ‘self-loathing’

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Tony Abbott on running for Senate, AUKUS and cultural ‘self-loathing’ · Inside Politics

• 0:01
  S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
• 0:03
  S1: This is inside politics. I am Jacqueline Maley. This week
• 0:09
  S1: we have something a little different. A little pre-Christmas special,
• 0:12
  S1: if you will. Our chief political correspondent, Paul Cicala, is
• 0:14
  S1: here with me in Sydney, and we have a former
• 0:16
  S1: prime minister in the studio with us. He has just
• 0:19
  S1: written a book on Australian history called Australia a history,
• 0:22
  S1: and he's been spending a lot of time in the
• 0:24
  S1: United States. He's just flown in from the United States,
• 0:26
  S1: where he is on the board of Fox Corporation, amongst
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  S1: other things. Tony Abbott, a very big welcome to Inside Politics.
• 0:32
  S2: Jacqueline, lovely to be with you and Paul.
• 0:34
  S1: Now I have before me your tome on Australian history.
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  S1: It's 400 pages ish. You're a known Anglophile and you're
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  S1: obviously a big patriot, but few people, I think, would
• 0:44
  S1: have expected you to write a book about Australian history,
• 0:47
  S1: particularly a book about The Expanse, the entire Australian history.
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  S1: What made you want to do it and add to
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  S1: the canon?
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  S2: Well, two reasons I thought it was a more worthwhile
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  S2: project than the standard former politician thing, which is to
• 1:02
  S2: write your memoirs. And I absolutely accept that memoirs can
• 1:06
  S2: be a valuable addition to our insights into what's happened.
• 1:13
  S2: But they do tend to be a little self-serving. And
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  S2: I thought that I had best let my time in
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  S2: politics be dealt with by the historians, rather than try
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  S2: to rehash it all myself. Second reason I think we
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  S2: have a history to be proud of. It's not perfect,
• 1:34
  S2: but it's much more good than bad. And I think
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  S2: too much recent Australian history has focused on the downside. Now,
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  S2: maybe to some extent that was a corrective to the
• 1:46
  S2: old Three Cheers version that Geoffrey Blainey refers to. But
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  S2: I really do think we've the pendulum swung way too far. Uh,
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  S2: to the to the other side And one of the
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  S2: reasons why I think Australians aren't really studying our own
• 2:02
  S2: history much is because they instinctively know that the history
• 2:07
  S2: that produced a country as good as ours can't be
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  S2: all bad. And yet when they delve into it, it
• 2:13
  S2: does seem all bad. So they think, well, let's let's
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  S2: block it out and let's just look forward. But a
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  S2: country which does not appreciate itself and does not understand
• 2:23
  S2: its own past, finds it difficult to adequately understand the
• 2:29
  S2: present or to build a good future for itself.
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  S1: I really enjoyed the opening chapters on colonial history and
• 2:36
  S1: the history of colonial Sydney, and you sort of put
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  S1: a slightly different cast on our convict past and make
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  S1: the point that the convicts actually, in many ways had
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  S1: a better lot than the underclass in Britain, or certainly
• 2:46
  S1: people languishing in prisons in Britain. What do people misunderstand,
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  S1: do you think about that period of history?
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  S2: Robert Hughes, very widely read and magnificent book, The Fatal Shore,
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  S2: has colored our perceptions of that time. Now, it's true
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  S2: that the punishment centers Port Arthur, Norfolk Island, Port Macquarie,
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  S2: Moreton Bay were pretty horrific. But about 10% of the
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  S2: convicts ended up in places like that. Um, for the
• 3:14
  S2: big majority they got here. Um, they were assigned to
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  S2: a master, uh, for many of them, it was just
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  S2: like working in a in a in a pretty normal job. Uh, because,
• 3:30
  S2: let's face it, that was the only labor force or
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  S2: most of the labor force we had back in those days.
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  S2: And so, yes, there was the minority experience of the
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  S2: fatal shore, so to speak, but much more the majority experience,
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  S2: which I, um, stress in the book, is of convicts
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  S2: riding home, uh, to their kith and kin in Britain saying,
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  S2: I am actually having a better life here than I
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  S2: would have had in London. It's interesting. Um. Peacock, the
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  S2: colonial artist responsible for the dust jacket illustration. He was
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  S2: a London lawyer who was convicted, uh, to hang for forgery.
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  S2: It was. It was commuted to life transportation. He ended up, uh,
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  S2: at Port Macquarie, one of the hellholes of the fatal shore.
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  S2: His wife and family joined him at Port Macquarie. They
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  S2: decided they would rather go to Sydney. He got a
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  S2: transfer from the administration at Port Macquarie and he became,
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  S2: if you like, one of the weather officers at the
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  S2: South Head weather station. Um, all this happening while he
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  S2: was actually on a ticket of leave and he became
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  S2: one of our best colonial artists and an early meteorologist,
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  S2: as it were. So, I mean, this redemption story characterizes
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  S2: our early existence. I mean, these were people who were
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  S2: given a second chance at life, and most of them
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  S2: grabbed it with both hands and succeeded magnificently.
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  S1: Obviously, the cohort of the population that didn't come off
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  S1: so well from colonization was the indigenous population. And you
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  S1: deal with the massacres in the book, and you do
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  S1: take your lead from historians who've covered those extensively. But
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  S1: your spin on the relations between the early colonizers and
• 5:28
  S1: Indigenous Australians is a bit different and a bit more
• 5:31
  S1: positive than recent times. Tell us about that.
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  S2: Well, two, two points to make. The first is that officially,
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  S2: there was this constant stress on the fact that the
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  S2: Aboriginal people of Australia were British subjects with all the
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  S2: rights of British subjects, and needed to be treated fairly
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  S2: and properly. That's certainly not what happened routinely on the frontier.
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  S2: But even on the frontier, it wasn't all oppression, massacre, etc..
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  S2: Most of the explorers needed Aboriginal guides to get them
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  S2: through the territory that was unfamiliar to them, but was
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  S2: very familiar to the local Aboriginal people. The pastoralists invariably
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  S2: needed Aboriginal men to work their herds and Aboriginal women
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  S2: to keep the households going. So it was a story
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  S2: of cooperation and partnership, as well as a story of
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  S2: conflict and confrontation. So again, I just think we need
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  S2: to see the good and the bad, and we need
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  S2: to be very careful about judging those times. By the
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  S2: standards of these times, they were just much tougher times.
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  S2: Whether you were a marine. Um, uh, a free settler, uh,
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  S2: a convict or an indigenous person. They were just tough times. And, uh,
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  S2: what we find shocking, uh, was routine in those days.
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  S3: It strikes me, Tony, that the reason you wrote this
• 7:08
  S3: book is tied up in a lot of senses. With
• 7:10
  S3: the current malaise of the Liberal Party, there's a sense
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  S3: that you're out of step with where elite opinion is,
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  S3: is formed in universities, in schools. Conservative opinion, in your view,
• 7:21
  S3: is marginalized. What's happening in modern society? That means the
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  S3: Liberal Party is so out of step with the culture.
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  S2: Well, I think the culture is out of step with
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  S2: reality in important respects, and that certainly is one of
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  S2: the reasons why I wrote the book. Perhaps the main
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  S2: reason why I wrote the book, because I just wanted
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  S2: to correct the misapprehensions that so many people seem to
• 7:45
  S2: take for granted about about Australia's past. But, look, um, I've,
• 7:51
  S2: I've occasionally, uh, probably more ruefully than anything else. Paul, uh,
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  S2: accepted that I am a bit out of step with
• 7:59
  S2: the temper of these times. I mean, um, I don't
• 8:03
  S2: think there is a climate crisis. I don't get this
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  S2: whole trans push. Uh, I certainly don't accept the magic
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  S2: pudding economics. I was appalled by the virus hysteria that
• 8:16
  S2: we lived through, um, for a couple of years. And and, yes,
• 8:20
  S2: I certainly don't accept the cultural self-loathing which seems to
• 8:25
  S2: characterize not just Australia, but much of the Anglosphere right now. So.
• 8:31
  S2: So yes, the book is, in a sense, um, my
• 8:34
  S2: pushback against all of this. Um, and I guess if
• 8:39
  S2: we're moving on to the Liberal Party, Paul, I wish
• 8:43
  S2: my party, The party I still wish well and want
• 8:49
  S2: to succeed. I wish my party were a bit more
• 8:52
  S2: robust in its approach to things, and I'm pleased to
• 8:56
  S2: see that under Sussan Ley, it does seem to be
• 8:59
  S2: adopting a slightly more robust approach.
• 9:01
  S1: Isn't that a difficult position to be in, though, that
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  S1: you're basically accepting that you're against sort of mainstream culture
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  S1: in a few different respects, and the Liberal Party is
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  S1: also having that problem in the sense that it just
• 9:12
  S1: doesn't seem to reflect mainstream Australian values. And we can
• 9:15
  S1: see that very clearly at the ballot box. I mean,
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  S1: isn't there an arrogance to a political party that says
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  S1: we're going to stay here and we're not going to
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  S1: evolve to the mainstream culture, we're going to stay where
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  S1: we are, and we're going to fight and belligerently stand
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  S1: our ground until everybody comes around to us. Isn't that anti-democratic?
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  S2: Well, Jacqueline, obviously, uh, in a democracy, you want to
• 9:39
  S2: win votes rather than alienate voters. But I also think
• 9:44
  S2: you've got to engage in a conversation with the public,
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  S2: which is respectful but occasionally perhaps robust. I mean, I've
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  S2: always seen the job of political leadership, not as asking
• 10:01
  S2: the voters what they want and giving it to them,
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  S2: but asking yourself, what does the country need? And trying
• 10:09
  S2: to persuade voters to vote for it? Um, for instance,
• 10:13
  S2: when I became opposition leader back in late 2009, everyone
• 10:18
  S2: thought that I was doomed because I didn't share the
• 10:23
  S2: consensus that climate change was the greatest economic, political, and
• 10:28
  S2: even moral challenge of our time. What I think I
• 10:32
  S2: succeeded in doing over two elections was persuading the public
• 10:36
  S2: that there was an economic dimension, as well as an
• 10:39
  S2: environmental and perhaps moral dimension to climate change. And, um,
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  S2: I had an unexpected, uh, swing to us in 2010
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  S2: and a massive swing to us in 2013. And, and
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  S2: I still think that if you look at the record
• 10:57
  S2: of successful governments, Hawke and Keating and then Howard and
• 11:00
  S2: Costello and then perhaps to a lesser extent, myself, it
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  S2: is possible to persuade the public, um, look at the voice.
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  S2: The voice debate. Um, at the beginning of the voice debate,
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  S2: some 60% of the public were in favour. In the end,
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  S2: some 60% were against. And that's because a strong and
• 11:23
  S2: and consistent and I thought principled argument was, was mounted.
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  S2: And and again, I stress the job of political leadership
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  S2: is not to reflect what the focus groups tell you.
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  S2: The job of political leadership is to discern what you
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  S2: think our country most needs now, and try to persuade
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  S2: the public to vote for that.
• 11:45
  S3: You, um, you said at a CPAC conference, I think,
• 11:48
  S3: earlier this year that, you know, the conservative supporters there
• 11:51
  S3: should give the Liberal Party one more chance to win,
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  S3: win back their faith. And you strike an optimistic tone
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  S3: on the Liberal Party. In the book, you say that
• 11:58
  S3: you know, all parties, even in their most parlous positions,
• 12:01
  S3: are 1 or 2 great leaders away from coming back
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  S3: to life. Do you think the Liberal Party is in
• 12:06
  S3: this existential moment where, because of the fracturing in the
• 12:09
  S3: center right and the new ways people gauge information and
• 12:12
  S3: the new ways people engage with politicians, there is a
• 12:15
  S3: chance that the center right doesn't hold, and it's inevitable
• 12:18
  S3: that we see a Nigel Farage style third force in
• 12:22
  S3: Australian politics. Or do you think the Liberal Party can
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  S3: hold that ground?
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  S2: Uh, we just don't know what the future holds. And plainly, uh,
• 12:32
  S2: previous iterations of the Australian, the Australian version of the
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  S2: centre right have failed. I mean, Deakin's Fusion Liberal Party
• 12:43
  S2: disintegrated during the second the First World War. The Nationalist
• 12:46
  S2: Party disintegrated during the depression. The UAP disintegrated during the
• 12:51
  S2: Second World War. So we have no God given right
• 12:56
  S2: to continue to exist, uh, as the main centre right
• 13:00
  S2: party as liberals. I mean, we have got to lift
• 13:03
  S2: our game, uh, to better address the problems of the
• 13:07
  S2: day and better, better appeal to the public. But I
• 13:11
  S2: do think we have a better chance of doing that
• 13:16
  S2: than any other alternative that I can see. When I
• 13:23
  S2: was rolled as prime minister, I had hundreds of letters
• 13:28
  S2: and emails from different people saying, oh, Tony, why don't
• 13:31
  S2: you start your own political party? And apart from the
• 13:35
  S2: fact that I think it would be churlish if someone
• 13:38
  S2: who had been put into the prime ministership by the
• 13:40
  S2: Liberal Party to then dump the Liberal Party just because
• 13:43
  S2: the Liberal Party had decided to put someone else into
• 13:45
  S2: the job. I also wrote back to these people, invariably
• 13:49
  S2: saying that it's much easier to fix an existing political
• 13:52
  S2: party than it is to start a new one. And
• 13:55
  S2: while I accept that reform in the United Kingdom is
• 13:58
  S2: doing very well, I don't think you can assume, even
• 14:03
  S2: on the basis of their current very strong polls, that
• 14:07
  S2: that's going to be translated to an election win. And
• 14:12
  S2: Nigel Farage is a remarkable politician. He's been on the
• 14:16
  S2: scene for a long time. And but for Nigel Farage,
• 14:21
  S2: Brexit would never have happened. And I think that shows
• 14:26
  S2: a degree of resilience, a degree of insight into the
• 14:33
  S2: issues facing Britain, which I don't think any of the
• 14:37
  S2: potential alternatives have shown in this country. I have a
• 14:42
  S2: you know, I'm, I'm not anti Pauline Hanson. I think
• 14:45
  S2: Pauline Hanson, in her second in incarnation, uh, as a,
• 14:50
  S2: as a member of Parliament, has been responsible, uh, I
• 14:54
  S2: think she's often been quite constructive. But it's one thing
• 14:59
  S2: to mount a reasonable critique of where things are at.
• 15:04
  S2: It's another thing to be a credible alternative government. I
• 15:07
  S2: don't think Nigel Farage is succeeding, and I certainly don't
• 15:10
  S2: think that at this point in time, um, One Nation
• 15:14
  S2: has succeeded.
• 15:14
  S3: How do you take on that? What's the what's the
• 15:16
  S3: strategy there?
• 15:17
  S2: Well, look at what John Howard did. I mean, when
• 15:19
  S2: Pauline Hanson first came to prominence saying that too many
• 15:25
  S2: Australians were feeling like strangers in their own country, uh,
• 15:28
  S2: government was letting people down. Too much money was being wasted. Howard,
• 15:35
  S2: very shrewdly. Resisted the urge to personally attack Hansen. Um would,
• 15:45
  S2: from time to time, where necessary, politely disagree with her
• 15:50
  S2: and did his best to address the real grievances that
• 15:55
  S2: her supporters felt. And over time, uh, the Howard government
• 16:01
  S2: did restore, um, prosperity. Uh, Howard's great achievement over the
• 16:08
  S2: course of his government was to actually make Australians feel
• 16:12
  S2: relaxed and comfortable about ourselves and our country. Um, because
• 16:18
  S2: he didn't pursue, uh, those divisive agendas, um, republicanism being
• 16:24
  S2: just one that characterised the Keating government, for instance. So
• 16:30
  S2: I think the way to respond to Hanson today is
• 16:34
  S2: not to be hypercritical of her, not even to be
• 16:38
  S2: too focused on her. It's to look at the things
• 16:43
  S2: that are causing our problems now. I do think that
• 16:47
  S2: there's an insanity to our current energy policy and to
• 16:51
  S2: our current emissions obsession. I do think there's deep folly
• 16:56
  S2: in what is effectively out of control mass migration at
• 17:00
  S2: the moment. I do think that we need to take
• 17:04
  S2: better charge of a whole range of cultural institutions, which
• 17:11
  S2: seem to be going off on, really.
• 17:15
  S1: What do you mean by that?
• 17:16
  S2: Well.
• 17:17
  S1: Look, how can a government take charge of cultural institutions
• 17:20
  S1: and why should it?
• 17:20
  S2: Well, a government needs to express a strong view. I mean,
• 17:26
  S2: give us an example as a as a conservative. As
• 17:29
  S2: a conservative. Uh. I don't think, uh, that government should
• 17:35
  S2: be directing, uh, institutions other than those that are immediately
• 17:42
  S2: the responsibility of government. But I think government's more than
• 17:45
  S2: capable of providing a lead. For instance. Um. Uh, what?
• 17:51
  S2: Why wouldn't, um, senior ministers be able to say, without
• 17:57
  S2: any embarrassment or hesitation that there are only two genders?
• 18:00
  S2: I mean, why is that such a problem? Why have
• 18:03
  S2: so many politicians got themselves into absolute knots and twists?
• 18:08
  S1: Do you think that's a big issue for Australians? So
• 18:10
  S1: you're talking, you're talking.
• 18:11
  S2: It's not something. It's not something that the average Australian
• 18:14
  S2: obsesses about. But if your teenage kid comes home from
• 18:19
  S2: school and suddenly announces that, um, uh, he is a
• 18:25
  S2: she or she is a he.
• 18:27
  S1: Well, they come out as trans.
• 18:29
  S2: Then. Then it does suddenly become a huge issue. And I,
• 18:36
  S2: I absolutely accept that if as an adult, um, uh,
• 18:42
  S2: you you've wrestled for years maybe with this, uh, issue, uh, and,
• 18:49
  S2: and you want to go down a particular path. That's
• 18:52
  S2: your right. But this idea that schools should be, in
• 18:57
  S2: a sense, encouraging gender fluidity and this idea that cultural
• 19:01
  S2: institutions should be promoting, um, this kind of non-binary identity, uh,
• 19:09
  S2: I just think it's slightly strange. And again, I think
• 19:12
  S2: it's the job of, of significant national leaders, whether they're
• 19:17
  S2: the chairman of big companies, whether it's the head of
• 19:21
  S2: the ABC, uh, whether it's members of parliament, premiers, prime ministers.
• 19:26
  S2: You've just got to stand up.
• 19:28
  S3: If you if you acknowledge that you said earlier that
• 19:30
  S3: you don't think this is a top order issue for people,
• 19:32
  S3: although some would have strongly held views and be quite
• 19:35
  S3: shocked if their kid said that said that to them
• 19:37
  S3: after school, which I accept. Why should the Prime Minister
• 19:40
  S3: or business leaders spend any time talking about this if
• 19:43
  S3: it's not a top order concern?
• 19:45
  S2: Because, as Reagan said of the presidency, it is a
• 19:48
  S2: bully pulpit. Uh, and as as both of you would know, uh,
• 19:55
  S2: if you are a premier or a prime minister or
• 19:59
  S2: even a senior minister in a government, uh, every time
• 20:02
  S2: you have an encounter with the media, you are questioned
• 20:06
  S2: about whatever the topical issues of the day are. And
• 20:10
  S2: I do think that our leadership has a responsibility to
• 20:16
  S2: be prepared to express a robust common sense view. Now,
• 20:21
  S2: that doesn't mean that you've then got to devote your
• 20:25
  S2: whole life to being a culture war warrior. Because in
• 20:29
  S2: the end, what people expect of government is to try
• 20:34
  S2: to ensure that the economy's well managed, to try to
• 20:37
  S2: ensure that government is efficiently run, to try to ensure
• 20:41
  S2: that the country is as safe as it humanly can be.
• 20:46
  S2: But that doesn't mean that you should opt out of
• 20:49
  S2: these things, particularly if there are a whole lot of
• 20:53
  S2: currents pushing society in unusual and even somewhat strange directions.
• 20:59
  S1: Could it be that the responsibility also swings the other way,
• 21:01
  S1: and that if you have the bully pulpit, as you say,
• 21:03
  S1: you have a responsibility not to inflame these issues? And
• 21:06
  S1: isn't that something that also should be a consideration for politicians?
• 21:10
  S2: Well, I think it's important to to treat people with respect.
• 21:16
  S2: And again, this is one of the other problems, uh,
• 21:20
  S2: in a more fragmented and polarized society. I think there
• 21:23
  S2: has been a regrettable tendency to assume that people who
• 21:27
  S2: disagree are not just misguided or misinformed, but in some
• 21:32
  S2: way bad people. And and I just I think this
• 21:36
  S2: is most unfortunate. Uh, but but again, uh, I just
• 21:42
  S2: think it's very important, uh, for leaders at every level
• 21:47
  S2: to say what they mean, to do what they say.
• 21:50
  S2: And if you see something significant, which you think is, um,
• 21:55
  S2: seriously out of line rather than just ignoring it, I
• 22:00
  S2: think you should politely deal with it in the same
• 22:04
  S2: way that if you're walking down the street and you
• 22:06
  S2: see something happening that shouldn't be happening, like the vandalizing
• 22:10
  S2: of a car or the harassment of of of a woman,
• 22:15
  S2: you you can't just walk past that, or you shouldn't
• 22:18
  S2: walk past that. And if you're a leader, you've got
• 22:21
  S2: a moral duty to do the best you can to
• 22:24
  S2: stop bad things happening.
• 22:27
  S1: You talked about the the US presidency being a bully pulpit.
• 22:30
  S1: How is Donald Trump handling that responsibility? Well, do you think?
• 22:35
  S2: Well, look, I think domestic Trump is uh, is is, uh,
• 22:40
  S2: pretty good. Um, I think foreign Trump has done some
• 22:45
  S2: good things and some, some things that I wish he
• 22:48
  S2: hadn't done. Uh, I, I like to see, um, exercises
• 22:56
  S2: of American power, uh, directed against people who are doing
• 23:02
  S2: the wrong thing. So I was pleased to see the
• 23:05
  S2: American attack on the Iranian nuclear installations. Uh, I accept that.
• 23:10
  S2: You've got to be incredibly careful that you don't make
• 23:13
  S2: make mistakes. But I don't have a problem with American
• 23:18
  S2: forces taking out drug running boats.
• 23:22
  S1: Even extrajudicially judicially.
• 23:24
  S2: Well, look, the Obama administration certainly launched lots of kill
• 23:31
  S2: strikes on suspected terrorists. Sometimes got it wrong, but they
• 23:36
  S2: certainly did that. And, um, I, I don't think there
• 23:41
  S2: was all that much moral outrage about what the Obama
• 23:44
  S2: administration tried to do. And I think that there should
• 23:48
  S2: be the same, I guess, level of understanding applied to
• 23:54
  S2: the current administration as was applied to, uh, to the
• 23:57
  S2: former administration.
• 23:57
  S3: The foreign sphere. You've been a big supporter of Ukraine
• 24:00
  S3: and its war with Russia. You famously said you'd shirtfront
• 24:03
  S3: Vladimir Putin, infamously, famously, I don't know which term you'd use.
• 24:08
  S3: Do you worry that China is watching, uh, Trump's maneuver
• 24:12
  S3: in on on Russia and Ukraine?
• 24:14
  S2: Absolutely.
• 24:15
  S3: And considering it in relation to its thinking on Taiwan.
• 24:18
  S2: Absolutely right. I mean, you know, the the democratic West
• 24:27
  S2: is currently challenged by, if you like, an axis of autocracy,
• 24:32
  S2: whether it's the militarist dictatorship in Moscow, the communist dictatorship
• 24:36
  S2: in Beijing, the apocalyptic theocratic dictatorship in Iran, and these
• 24:43
  S2: challenger powers are working in a kind of loose concert,
• 24:49
  S2: not because they have all that much in common, uh,
• 24:53
  S2: except for this their deep dissatisfaction with the Anglo-American global order, uh,
• 25:03
  S2: which has dominated the world for much of the last
• 25:06
  S2: two centuries, but particularly since the Second World War. And
• 25:11
  S2: there is no doubt whatsoever that as part of the
• 25:15
  S2: No Limits partnership, the declared no limits partnership between Putin
• 25:19
  S2: and XI. If Putin in the end prevails in Ukraine
• 25:24
  S2: because the West's refused to support this country fighting heroically
• 25:29
  S2: for its the freedom and independence the US.
• 25:31
  S3: Really?
• 25:31
  S2: Um, but but of course, part of the problem is
• 25:36
  S2: that even Britain and France, um, are now reluctant to
• 25:40
  S2: do anything without American support. I mean, Sir Keir Starmer,
• 25:45
  S2: I think, quite properly announced earlier in the year, uh,
• 25:50
  S2: that once a ceasefire was in place, there would be a,
• 25:53
  S2: a British led stabilisation force in Ukraine to act as
• 25:58
  S2: a tripwire against further Russian aggression. But he said, but
• 26:02
  S2: we would need an American backstop when the American backstop
• 26:05
  S2: was not immediately forthcoming. He suddenly started backpedaling. Now, I
• 26:10
  S2: think it's sad, frankly, that That a country like Britain
• 26:14
  S2: is not prepared to act independently here.
• 26:16
  S3: That's right. Just back to your point. If Russia was
• 26:19
  S3: to prevail and you were going to continue on to
• 26:21
  S3: how China would act, I'll let you continue with that.
• 26:23
  S2: Yeah. Well, well, there's there's no doubt that China would
• 26:26
  S2: take that as a sign of, of Western weakness and
• 26:30
  S2: in particular of American weakness, or at least of an
• 26:34
  S2: American pullback from the wider, from the wider.
• 26:38
  S3: And what could the consequence be in terms of the Indo-Pacific?
• 26:41
  S2: Well, um, uh, if America were to pull back, uh,
• 26:50
  S2: to its own hemisphere, uh, that would allow China to, to, to,
• 26:57
  S2: to dominate Asia, um, and most likely Russia to dominate Europe.
• 27:04
  S2: And if our world were dominated by China over time,
• 27:09
  S2: it would be a very different, and I think much
• 27:12
  S2: worse world than it has been up till now. I mean,
• 27:18
  S2: the long Anglo American ascendancy, uh, has changed the world, uh,
• 27:25
  S2: in the Anglo American direction. More free, more fair, more rich,
• 27:29
  S2: more safe. Um, a a sinocentric world would change everything
• 27:38
  S2: in a Chinese direction. And much as I love Chinese people,
• 27:43
  S2: Chinese governance is. Much more, um, it's much less conducive
• 27:51
  S2: to individual freedom.
• 27:52
  S1: You met with JD Vance, Vice President JD Vance on
• 27:55
  S1: a few days ago in the United States. Is that
• 27:58
  S1: something you discussed with him?
• 28:00
  S2: Look, uh, we had a great talk. I'm a big
• 28:03
  S2: fan of JD Vance. I think he's a very, very
• 28:06
  S2: impressive human being. And, um, I would encourage anyone who
• 28:11
  S2: wants to get a handle on JD Vance to read
• 28:13
  S2: his outstanding book, Hillbilly Elegy. Uh, I won't go into
• 28:18
  S2: the detail of what we discussed. One matter that I
• 28:21
  S2: have been raising on and off in the United States
• 28:24
  S2: ever since Aukus was announced, and all credit to the
• 28:29
  S2: Morrison government for announcing Aukus and all credit to the
• 28:34
  S2: Albanese government for continuing with Aukus. The problem with Aukus
• 28:38
  S2: is that we need more naval strike power now. Um,
• 28:45
  S2: and yes, let's get Virginia class subs, uh, in 8
• 28:50
  S2: or 10 years time and let's get the Aukus subs, uh,
• 28:53
  S2: in 10 or 15 years time. But wouldn't it be
• 28:56
  S2: good to get a nuclear powered submarine now? And given
• 29:02
  S2: that the Americans are retiring a couple of LA class
• 29:05
  S2: nuclear powered submarines every year. My curiosity is why couldn't
• 29:11
  S2: Australia take over 1 or 2 of these boats now, uh,
• 29:17
  S2: and run them for a few years, uh, as Australian
• 29:22
  S2: ends in flagged boats? Because, um, it's nearly always possible
• 29:27
  S2: to extract a few more years of useful life out of,
• 29:32
  S2: out of out of these, these vessels. And why not
• 29:36
  S2: do that? Because we really do need more firepower now. Um,
• 29:41
  S2: because as everyone says, uh, a crisis across the Taiwan
• 29:46
  S2: Straits could be much closer than a decade away.
• 29:51
  S1: So is that something you suggested to JD Vance?
• 29:53
  S2: I'm just not going to go into the details.
• 29:55
  S1: You brought it up in that context.
• 29:57
  S3: Um, I.
• 29:58
  S1: Think I will take it as a possible. Yes. I
• 30:00
  S1: want to ask you just lastly about something, because we're
• 30:02
  S1: running out of time. Unfortunately, I feel like we could
• 30:04
  S1: talk for a lot longer in reading around last week
• 30:07
  S1: about you. I read a piece in the Australian from
• 30:09
  S1: a few years ago that you wrote a letter of
• 30:11
  S1: recommendation for Julia Gillard, for her recommendation for an Order
• 30:15
  S1: of Australia, a companion in the Order of Australia, which,
• 30:17
  S1: of course, she was awarded. Is that true?
• 30:20
  S2: Look, uh, I honestly don't recollect it, but but but.
• 30:25
  S1: But do you just dash these letters off all the time?
• 30:27
  S2: But I, I certainly I certainly thought she was an appropriate, uh, awardee.
• 30:32
  S2: And I have written a lot of letters over the
• 30:36
  S2: years in support of people getting an award. And one
• 30:39
  S2: of the points I make in the book is that
• 30:42
  S2: Gillard was a very capable politician. I mean, uh, I
• 30:49
  S2: was uh, she was the shadow Minister for health when
• 30:52
  S2: I was the health minister. Um, she was the manager
• 30:57
  S2: of opposition business when I was the leader of the House. Uh,
• 31:01
  S2: she was deputy prime minister when I became opposition leader,
• 31:06
  S2: she and I for several years did a Friday morning
• 31:09
  S2: joint discussion on the today programme with, uh, with Carl.
• 31:14
  S2: And she's an impressive person, and certainly she's been really
• 31:20
  S2: exemplary as an ex prime minister. She's, um, occasionally said
• 31:26
  S2: things that she thought needed to be said, um, while
• 31:29
  S2: at the same time immersing herself in various good works. So, um,
• 31:34
  S2: if I did write a letter, I'm pleased. And if
• 31:38
  S2: I didn't, I certainly think that she's a worthy awardee.
• 31:42
  S1: How do you reflect on that time now? I mean,
• 31:44
  S1: times have changed a lot. And certainly the way that
• 31:47
  S1: we talk about gender and sexism in public life. She,
• 31:50
  S1: of course, accused of misogyny. She wasn't the only person
• 31:52
  S1: to accuse you of misogyny at that time. Do you
• 31:55
  S1: think it would be acceptable now, for example, for a
• 31:58
  S1: party leader to stand in front of a sign that
• 31:59
  S1: says Bob Brown's bitch or ditch the witch, that kind
• 32:02
  S1: of thing. Do you regret that?
• 32:03
  S2: Well, Jacqueline, as you might remember, uh, at the time,
• 32:08
  S2: I was completely unaware, uh, that those banners were there. Uh,
• 32:13
  S2: I mean, they were, as far as I'm aware, erected
• 32:17
  S2: behind me after I'd stood up to, uh, to speak.
• 32:21
  S1: Yeah, I'm still. I guess the question still stands whether
• 32:24
  S1: you regret any of the commentary, any of your behavior,
• 32:28
  S1: any part that you might have played in the perceptions
• 32:31
  S1: and the hysteria around that time, and the undeniable sexist
• 32:34
  S1: treatment that Julia Gillard was subject to? Well.
• 32:38
  S2: I, I often used to observe that, uh, back in
• 32:44
  S2: the day, uh, the parliamentary chamber was not fair, uh,
• 32:49
  S2: to to female to female members. I mean, I can
• 32:53
  S2: remember when Carmen Lawrence used to stand up as health minister. Uh,
• 32:57
  S2: I thought there was a. Um, uh, a nasty dimension
• 33:03
  S2: sometimes to the barracking that that she got. Um, by
• 33:09
  S2: all means, Jacqueline, point to something that I did or said, um,
• 33:13
  S2: which which was, um, an example of sexist misogyny because
• 33:18
  S2: I think I honestly think you'd struggle to find anything.
• 33:20
  S1: What I'm asking. I'm not I'm not saying that at all.
• 33:22
  S1: What I'm asking is whether in your time reflecting because
• 33:25
  S1: it was now ten years ago, plus in your time
• 33:29
  S1: reflecting whether or not you would do anything differently or
• 33:31
  S1: how you reflect on all of the commentary and all
• 33:34
  S1: of the sort of, um, reflection we've had on the
• 33:37
  S1: sexism in politics at that time. And I'm not talking
• 33:40
  S1: about your behaviour necessarily, but all I'm talking about the
• 33:45
  S1: media commentary. You know, Alan Jones, who's a friend of yours,
• 33:48
  S1: famously was horrendously sexist.
• 33:51
  S2: Towards and he and he and he apologised.
• 33:53
  S1: Sure. But I guess what I'm asking is how do
• 33:55
  S1: you reflect on that time now?
• 33:56
  S2: I mean, I mean, look, Occasionally people say things, um,
• 34:01
  S2: in the heat of the moment that they regret. Uh,
• 34:06
  S2: and when that happens, you should apologize. And Alan, to
• 34:10
  S2: his credit, did apologize for those observations, which were they
• 34:14
  S2: were silly. They were over the top. They were wrong. Um, and,
• 34:18
  S2: and and likewise, uh, I'm just trying to think back
• 34:23
  S2: to anything that I might have said or done at
• 34:25
  S2: the time. Um, I don't.
• 34:27
  S3: There's the sex appeal comment. There's, uh, the, the the
• 34:31
  S3: daughter's comment. I'm just trying to recall my mind back.
• 34:34
  S3: I mean, there's the women doing the ironing. There's a
• 34:37
  S3: there's a couple that come to mind.
• 34:38
  S2: Well, I suppose these these were, uh.
• 34:42
  S1: I could make an honest woman.
• 34:45
  S2: I think they're pretty. I think they were fairly innocent observations. Um,
• 34:50
  S2: maybe tactless observations. Uh, um, in the Abbott household, um,
• 34:56
  S2: when I was growing up, I'm afraid mum did the ironing.
• 35:00
  S2: It was as simple as that. And I think even now,
• 35:03
  S2: it's probably true that in more households than not, it's
• 35:06
  S2: the woman that does the ironing. To the extent that
• 35:09
  S2: we do any ironing these days. Um, and what was
• 35:13
  S2: the other thing I said wrong, Paul?
• 35:15
  S3: Oh, there was the sex appeal to Fiona.
• 35:16
  S2: Oh, yes.
• 35:17
  S3: Yes, there was comment on your daughter's appearance, which I
• 35:19
  S3: think people found maybe slightly weird.
• 35:20
  S1: That Julia Gillard should make an honest woman of herself.
• 35:23
  S1: I mean, there's a there's a list of these things,
• 35:24
  S1: but I suppose the, um, the but.
• 35:27
  S2: If but if but if Julia Gillard had said Tony
• 35:30
  S2: Abbott should make an honest man of himself, would that
• 35:32
  S2: be a sexist observation?
• 35:34
  S3: I doubt it would be seen that way, but.
• 35:36
  S2: No, see.
• 35:36
  S3: But that's not how gender imbalance is.
• 35:40
  S2: I mean, look, let's I just think we can get
• 35:46
  S2: we can just get overexcited about these things. I mean,
• 35:50
  S2: I believe that in my adult life. I have always
• 35:56
  S2: treated women with respect. Uh, and I have, as far
• 36:01
  S2: as is humanly possible, uh, tried to see people as people,
• 36:06
  S2: not as female, male, black, white, Catholic, Protestant, Australian, non-australian.
• 36:14
  S2: I've tried to treat people as people. Um, and and
• 36:20
  S2: to look for the good in them, despite your.
• 36:22
  S3: Uh, what you described as some tactless comments. Uh, I
• 36:26
  S3: think in talking to people before this podcast, I've described
• 36:29
  S3: them your position in kind of conservative circles, both in
• 36:32
  S3: Australia and in London and in Washington and other places
• 36:35
  S3: you do hold, it seems to me, this kind of
• 36:36
  S3: special status as the leading Australian conservative, Malcolm Turnbull and
• 36:40
  S3: Scott Morrison and Peter Dutton don't command the crowds you command.
• 36:43
  S3: At Conservative Party conferences in London and other places. I've
• 36:46
  S3: seen some of this myself. The way you get mugged
• 36:49
  S3: in crowds, you're still also highly active in factional politics.
• 36:54
  S3: You engage with internal politics and just the general affairs
• 37:00
  S3: of the Liberal Party in a way that most of
• 37:01
  S3: your predecessors don't anymore. What's what's the mission that you're on? What?
• 37:06
  S3: Why are you still so engaged, and what are you
• 37:09
  S3: driving at?
• 37:10
  S2: Well, I think John Howard has been no less involved
• 37:14
  S2: in the party.
• 37:15
  S3: Uh, probably just due to age now.
• 37:17
  S2: And and John certainly is, I think, quite appropriately, appropriately
• 37:23
  S2: regarded as the greatest living liberal, um, in some respects,
• 37:28
  S2: perhaps the greatest ever liberal. Uh, and I think he's
• 37:32
  S2: been altogether a force for good in the Liberal Party
• 37:36
  S2: in his post post-parliamentary time. And I guess in this respect,
• 37:41
  S2: at least, I would want to model myself in on
• 37:45
  S2: on John Howard. Um, I want my party to succeed.
• 37:49
  S2: I want my party to be its best self. And
• 37:53
  S2: I think it will succeed best and be its best
• 37:57
  S2: self if it is a robust alternative to labour. If
• 38:04
  S2: it is liberal in the sense of wanting smaller government,
• 38:10
  S2: lower taxes, greater freedom. If it is conservative in the
• 38:14
  S2: sense of respecting the family, small business institutions that have
• 38:19
  S2: stood the test of time. But above all else, if
• 38:22
  S2: it is patriotic because I think Australia is the best
• 38:27
  S2: place in the world to live, and I desperately want
• 38:29
  S2: us to stay that way.
• 38:30
  S3: You've acknowledged, though, that you're some of the views you
• 38:32
  S3: hold are potentially out of step with mainstream Australian values.
• 38:35
  S3: Are you fighting some of your colleagues who served with you?
• 38:38
  S3: Feel like you're fighting the battles of your prime ministership,
• 38:40
  S3: that you're driven by a sense that you still have
• 38:43
  S3: work to do? Because that was cut short in the
• 38:45
  S3: way it was.
• 38:46
  S2: Yeah. Well. Well, I mean, I don't think we should
• 38:51
  S2: run our electricity system to reduce emissions, and I think
• 38:55
  S2: a whole lot of those chickens are in the process
• 38:57
  S2: of coming home to roost. I do think we need to, um,
• 39:03
  S2: get government spending under better control. I do think we
• 39:07
  S2: need to encourage a greater sense of personal responsibility. And
• 39:11
  S2: I do think that Australia should, uh, be better prepared
• 39:17
  S2: to defend itself if needs be and to make a
• 39:21
  S2: contribution to defending freedom in the wider world. So I
• 39:25
  S2: don't think these issues really ever change. Paul. I mean,
• 39:29
  S2: I think the circumstances change, but the fundamental imperatives don't
• 39:33
  S2: very finely.
• 39:35
  S3: Um, your keenness to contribute to public life, I didn't
• 39:39
  S3: realise extended to before the last election, actually having conversations
• 39:43
  S3: with people about running in a seat before the May election.
• 39:46
  S3: I've heard from people close to Peter Dutton that there
• 39:49
  S3: were conversations about running for a Senate spot for MacArthur,
• 39:52
  S3: for Parramatta. All of these things were floated and you
• 39:54
  S3: were you were keen and expressed this view to the
• 39:56
  S3: former opposition leader.
• 39:57
  S2: I think I think that's a little bit of an exaggeration.
• 40:01
  S2: I had one conversation with Peter Dutton, um, after it
• 40:05
  S2: was publicly suggested that I could possibly take Jim Molan
• 40:10
  S2: Senate seat, and Peter basically said that it would make
• 40:17
  S2: his life more complicated if that were to happen. I
• 40:20
  S2: completely accepted that. Um, now, different people said to me, oh, Tony,
• 40:26
  S2: why don't you have another go? And my view then
• 40:30
  S2: and now is that I couldn't or shouldn't do anything
• 40:36
  S2: that makes the life of the leader of the Liberal
• 40:39
  S2: Party more complicated. And.
• 40:42
  S3: Um, can you see a path back where it doesn't
• 40:44
  S3: make the leader's life more complicated? Is it still? Is
• 40:47
  S3: it in prospect in some way?
• 40:48
  S2: Look, um, I've got a lot to do as things stand, Paul.
• 40:53
  S2: I mean, I've got a book to promote. Um, I've
• 40:57
  S2: got a couple of other book projects, at least.
• 40:59
  S3: A couple of book projects.
• 41:00
  S2: In, in, in in my mind.
• 41:02
  S3: What are.
• 41:02
  S2: They? Uh, let's, uh, get them further advanced before we
• 41:07
  S2: start talking about them in public. But.
• 41:09
  S3: But everyone.
• 41:10
  S2: But thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that, but, um,
• 41:14
  S2: I think the best thing that people like me can do, uh,
• 41:18
  S2: in normal political circumstances, is be as encouraging as I
• 41:24
  S2: can be to the coming generation of liberals. And just
• 41:29
  S2: as I want the Liberal Party to be its best self,
• 41:32
  S2: I want my, um, I guess, liberal successors to be
• 41:37
  S2: their best selves. And I'll just keep doing that to
• 41:39
  S2: the best of my ability.
• 41:40
  S1: Tony, you've been so generous with your time. Unfortunately, we
• 41:43
  S1: have to let you go. You do have a book
• 41:44
  S1: to promote. I would encourage everyone to buy this book
• 41:47
  S1: for for Christmas presents. It's it's actually a really good read.
• 41:49
  S1: And that's for people who maybe wouldn't even be natural
• 41:52
  S1: fans of Tony Abbott's or might not have voted for him.
• 41:54
  S1: We do have an extraordinary history and he's laid it
• 41:56
  S1: out in beautiful, lucid prose. Tony Abbott, thank you very much.
• 41:59
  S2: Thanks, Jacqueline. Thanks, Paul.
• 42:06
  S1: Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. Our executive producer
• 42:10
  S1: is Tammy Mills, and Tom McKendrick is our head of audio.
• 42:13
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• 42:15
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• 42:19
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• 42:25
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• 42:29
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• 42:34
  S1: Jacqueline Maley. Thank you for listening.