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SICKO-PERV TEACHER HAS BABY WITH STUDENT, 11 · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, A sickoe purv fifth grade
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  Speaker 1: teacher thirty four has a baby with her boy student
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  Speaker 1: age eleven. Whoa wait, a thirty four year old woman
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  Speaker 1: has a sex relationship. That's called right, that's not a
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  Speaker 1: relationship with an eleven year old boy that is in
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  Speaker 1: her class in the fifth grade. I still remember my
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  Speaker 1: fifth grade teacher, Katie Amerson, one of the best teachers
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  Speaker 1: I ever had. That's my happy memory. This eleven year
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  Speaker 1: old boy fathers a baby with his thirty four year
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  Speaker 1: old fifth grade teacher. Okay, I'm Nancy Grace, this is
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  Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Fifth grade
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  Speaker 1: teacher Laura Corone sparks a close friendship with the mom
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  Speaker 1: of one of her students, But things on when a
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  Speaker 1: Facebook post reveals a bombshell secret.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, a bombshell secret.
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  Speaker 1: How is that a secret when you carry a baby
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  Speaker 1: nine months and give birth.
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  Speaker 2: Let's just start at the beginning. Listen.
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  Speaker 3: Laura Karen, twenty six, has been teaching fifth grade in
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  Speaker 3: Middle Township Elementary School for just over two years. When
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  Speaker 3: she begins to develop a close relationship with her male
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  Speaker 3: student's mother. The mom knows her two younger children will
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  Speaker 3: also come through Karen's class and they become fast friends
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  Speaker 3: with me.
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  Speaker 1: An all star panel to make sense of what we
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  Speaker 1: are learning right now. But first I want to go
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  Speaker 1: straight out to a renowned psychologist, doctor John Delatory, before
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  Speaker 1: I get into the facts.
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  Speaker 2: I think I need a shrink on this.
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  Speaker 1: A thirty four year old female teacher. A lot of
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  Speaker 1: people want to say has sex with an eleven year
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  Speaker 1: old student. When that teacher is a female, that's statutory rape. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: let's don't say had sex with doctor Delatory. I don't
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  Speaker 1: get it. I don't understand it. A it's a crime,
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  Speaker 1: but B, this didn't just happen one time.
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  Speaker 2: According to reports, this went on for years.
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  Speaker 1: And what nobody noticed the teacher was pregnant for Pete's sake.
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  Speaker 1: I don't understand how that can happen under the noses
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  Speaker 1: of the school. I don't understand how that can happen
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  Speaker 1: and nobody figures it out. And the attraction, let's start
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  Speaker 1: with the attraction. I don't understand that.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, So I think when we're looking at the age
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  Speaker 4: of the victim in this case, we're potentially looking at
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  Speaker 4: a possible diagnosis of pedophilic disorder. Now, with pedophilic disorder,
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  Speaker 4: we're dealing with individuals who will cross sexual boundaries or
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  Speaker 4: offend against children, typically thirteen years or younger, over the
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  Speaker 4: course of six months or longer. It's clear that that's
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  Speaker 4: obviously what happened. I mean, she ended up getting pregnant
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  Speaker 4: by the victim in this case. You're absolutely right, Nancy.
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  Speaker 4: We can't use the word had sex with because that
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  Speaker 4: applies some level of consent. There's no consent when the
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  Speaker 4: victim in the case is eleven years old. It doesn't
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  Speaker 4: matter if it's a boy or a girl. It does
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  Speaker 4: not matter. This woman offended against this child. This child
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  Speaker 4: is a victim.
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  Speaker 1: This child is going Hey, okay, Delatory, Delatory, Delatory control room.
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  Speaker 2: Can you please show me Karen's photo again?
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  Speaker 1: Okay? I want to want Delatory to look at her.
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  Speaker 1: This is the question I'm saying online. She's young, she's pretty,
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  Speaker 1: she's fit.
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  Speaker 2: Look at her. What there are no men her age?
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  Speaker 1: She has to pray on an eleven year old boy?
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  Speaker 2: What is her problem?
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  Speaker 1: And when you say some kind of pedophilic what did
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  Speaker 1: you say a pedophilic what pedophilic disorder?
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  Speaker 2: Pedophilic disorder? This is not a disorder.
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  Speaker 1: Why are you saying that? Because see, I think you're
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  Speaker 1: stirring the pot. You're putting fuel.
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  Speaker 2: To the flame.
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  Speaker 1: De Tory, this is a crime. You're acting like it's
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  Speaker 1: an illness, a disorder.
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  Speaker 4: Well, here's the thing is that I'm not a lawyer, right,
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  Speaker 4: I'm not a judge, I'm not a cop. My job
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  Speaker 4: as a psychologist is to explain what exactly it is
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  Speaker 4: that's going on. We as psychologist, especially me, as someone
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  Speaker 4: who's treated sex offenders before, see this as a disorder.
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  Speaker 2: We see this as.
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  Speaker 4: Something that can be treated but has underlying pathology, underlying
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  Speaker 4: psychological issues. Are there men her age, of course there are?
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  Speaker 4: Are there single men her age, of course there are.
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  Speaker 4: But she convinced herself that she was having a relationship
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  Speaker 4: with this eleven year old. In her mind, she believed
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  Speaker 4: what she was doing was wrong. That's disordered thinking, Nancy.
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  Speaker 4: That's where psychologist comes in.
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  Speaker 5: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, it's a crime, of course, it's crime.
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  Speaker 4: Is always going to be a crime. But some things
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  Speaker 4: need to be treated, some things need to kind of
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  Speaker 4: understand from a psychological conspective in order to prevent it
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  Speaker 4: from happening again.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, you know what.
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  Speaker 1: It was my fault for asking you the question. I
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  Speaker 1: can't blame you. I blame myself because I ask you why.
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  Speaker 1: And frankly, why doesn't matter. It took me five years
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  Speaker 1: prosecuting violent felonies to stop looking over at the defendant
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  Speaker 1: in the middle of court thinking why would you cause
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  Speaker 1: this wake of pain? Leaving it behind you because of
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  Speaker 1: what you did? Why doesn't matter? And when you say treatment,
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  Speaker 1: I hope she can get treatment behind bars. And I
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  Speaker 1: think I know someone's going to disagree with you. Anna
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  Speaker 1: Sonoda joining me. She is an expert in child sex abuse.
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  Speaker 1: She's a grooming expert, a clinical social worker. She also
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  Speaker 1: counsels convicted sex offenders. I would not want to spend
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  Speaker 1: my day doing that. And she is the author of
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  Speaker 1: Duck Groom. Help me Out, Anna Sonoda, I hear delatory
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  Speaker 1: from his point of view talking about treatment to Hay
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  Speaker 1: with treatment, she needs to be behind bars for a
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  Speaker 1: really long time. I don't know who's going to raise
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  Speaker 1: this baby. She gave birth to the father at eleven
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  Speaker 1: year old. Student Nandy.
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  Speaker 6: You mentioned before the most important part, which is not
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  Speaker 6: why they do it, it's how they do it. Your audience
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  Speaker 6: needs to recognize that grooming took place, and that predators
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  Speaker 6: often groom the parents or the caregivers of their identified
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  Speaker 6: target in advance or alongside the child they're grooming. In
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  Speaker 6: this case, we see that she had access through her
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  Speaker 6: role as a teacher, and she developed a close relationship
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  Speaker 6: with the child's mother, and this set this young, poor
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  Speaker 6: victim up for failure from the get go.
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  Speaker 2: Ron Bateman joining me.
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  Speaker 1: Former homicide undercover narcotics hes at ronbaatemanbooks dot com, author
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  Speaker 1: of a crime trilogy, Ron Bateman, you know we're hearing
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  Speaker 1: a lot about treatment and counseling for this woman. I'm
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  Speaker 1: not quite sure you and I are on the same page.
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  Speaker 7: Please respond, Oh my god, we are definitely on the
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  Speaker 7: same page. Treatment. Yeah, like you said, treatment behind bars.
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  Speaker 7: But you know, as a cop, the first thing I
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  Speaker 7: think think of is this the first time? You think
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  Speaker 7: this is the first kid eleven years old, if she's
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  Speaker 7: ever touched, I highly doubt it. This is just the
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  Speaker 7: first one she's been caught on. And you know what
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  Speaker 7: I think about the long term effect that's going to
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  Speaker 7: be on this poor child. Can you see him now? Hey, daddy,
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  Speaker 7: how do you? Mommy me?
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  Speaker 1: Oh?
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  Speaker 7: She was my fifth grade teacher. Really give me a.
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  Speaker 1: Break, Oh the way you just said that. Guys, the
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  Speaker 1: seminal case are there are a couple of them. Let's start
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  Speaker 1: with possibly the most famous one that brought to the
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  Speaker 1: forefront of our national conscious, the phenomena of a female
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  Speaker 1: sex predator praying on children, specifically their students.
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  Speaker 2: Mary Kay Laturno.
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  Speaker 1: Listen, I did something that I had no right to do,
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  Speaker 1: Laura Lee or legally.
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  Speaker 2: It was wrong.
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  Speaker 6: I'm sorry.
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  Speaker 1: That's Mary Kay Laturno in court after she gives birth
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  Speaker 1: to a baby by her student.
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  Speaker 2: The that's from our friends at NBC. Listen.
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  Speaker 8: Steve Laturno finds love letters written by his pregnant wife,
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  Speaker 8: but they aren't to him. The letters are for one
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  Speaker 8: of Mary Kay Laturno's students, a twelve year old boy
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  Speaker 8: she's been tutoring since he was eight. It turns out
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  Speaker 8: Laturno's pregnancy is a result of a sexual relationship with
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  Speaker 8: the boy. Laturno is sentenced to three months in prison
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  Speaker 8: as part of a plea agreement, but after her release,
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  Speaker 8: Laturno's caught having sex with the student again. Laturno's agreement
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  Speaker 8: is revoked and she gives birth to the boy's second child.
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  Speaker 8: Eight months into her seven year sentence, so she gets.
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  Speaker 1: Out on a light sentence because she is an attractive female.
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  Speaker 2: She gets slap on the wrist.
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  Speaker 1: She gets out after a few more months, and what
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  Speaker 1: does she do immediately violate the judge's order and she
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  Speaker 1: is caught in a steamed up vehicle in the middle
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  Speaker 1: of the night with the boys student back in the car. Okay, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: her this hit the news in a big way. Joining
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  Speaker 1: me is Mark Tate, a veteran trial lawyer out of
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  Speaker 1: the Savannah jurisdiction with the Tate Law Group. Mark, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: wouldn't you counselor your client listen, can you just stay
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  Speaker 1: away from the little boy you've gotten out in three months?
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  Speaker 2: Stay away from him, go have sex with somebody else.
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  Speaker 1: And I'd like to to point out that I heard
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  Speaker 1: Crime Online dot Com reporter Holden Zapple referring to it
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  Speaker 1: as sex.
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  Speaker 2: It's not. It's rape. It is statutory rape. Think about it,
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  Speaker 2: Mark Tate.
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  Speaker 1: And this is what I'm sure you've seen many prosecutors
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  Speaker 1: do with juries.
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  Speaker 2: I'm sure you've done it in civil.
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  Speaker 1: Cases where you say, what if this boy because v
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  Speaker 1: Filao was six feet at least, what if this boy
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  Speaker 1: was an eleven year old girl. Think about it, Think
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  Speaker 1: about that, and sometimes you have to do that.
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  Speaker 9: I think the gender of the victim really in this instance,
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  Speaker 9: I don't think that it helps. I don't think it
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  Speaker 9: hurts her. She's going to jail. What she did is
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  Speaker 9: indefensible in terms of her guilt. The only way to
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  Speaker 9: deal with what this lady, miss Karan or Karan did,
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  Speaker 9: I think most likely is going to be focusing on
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  Speaker 9: what the sentencing is going to be. And I know
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  Speaker 9: that many people are heavily in favor you included Nancy
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  Speaker 9: in incarceration, and that's going to be a way to
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  Speaker 9: stop or prevent her or even others perhaps from doing it.
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  Speaker 9: But incarcerating this lady for a lengthy period of time
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  Speaker 9: only means she's going to get out and be a hardened,
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  Speaker 9: possibly smarter, more dangerous predator. And so to some extent,
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  Speaker 9: I agree with mister or doctor Delatore that she's going
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  Speaker 9: to have to while in prison, which I certainly deserved here.
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  Speaker 9: She's going to have to get some kind of counseling
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  Speaker 9: or she's going to run out of money to hire lawyers,
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  Speaker 9: and she's not going to have any hope of really,
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  Speaker 9: and we're not going to have who really is a society?
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  Speaker 2: Are you about her recovering?
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  Speaker 9: Well, we don't want her to get us and go
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  Speaker 9: out and keep doing this.
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  Speaker 10: We got to stop.
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  Speaker 2: No, I don't want her to get loose. Period.
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  Speaker 1: You can in the sentence right there, take I don't
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  Speaker 1: want her.
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  Speaker 2: To get you where a man, she would get twenty
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  Speaker 2: to life hard time.
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  Speaker 9: She's not going to get twenty to life. She's facing
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  Speaker 9: ten to twenty. So we got to deal with not
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  Speaker 9: what Nancy Grace's justice is. We got to deal with
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  Speaker 9: what's going to happen in New Jersey. And she's going
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  Speaker 9: to eventually be free, and when we let her go,
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  Speaker 9: we need.
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  Speaker 1: To make sure she's because it's happening in New Jersey.
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  Speaker 1: Just because it's happening, just because it's being done, doesn't
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  Speaker 1: mean it should be done. Ron Bateman, the disparity between
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  Speaker 1: female and male sentences in sex crimes is astonishing. And
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  Speaker 1: did you just hear him Mark Tate talking about getting
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  Speaker 1: her treatment tree, Yeah.
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  Speaker 7: You know it's and he's right. She is going to
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  Speaker 7: get out and it's not going to be a maximum
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  Speaker 7: sentence is twenty okay? And she's going to get good time.
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  Speaker 7: Hopefully she'll get treatment inside, but she's going to have
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  Speaker 7: to be monitored so closely like a dog in a cage,
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  Speaker 7: to keep her from doing this again.
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  Speaker 10: It began with one or two nights a week. What
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  Speaker 10: started as an innocent enough sleepover at teacher Laura Karen's
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  Speaker 10: home soon spiraled into every parents for snightmare?
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  Speaker 2: Okay, wait a minute, a sleepover? Wait?
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  Speaker 1: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
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  Speaker 1: what we're learning right now. In addition to Mark Tate,
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  Speaker 1: doctor John de la Torre, Ron Bateman, and a Sonoda
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  Speaker 1: joining me now, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Dave
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  Speaker 1: Matt So, Dave matt, I want you to explain to me.
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  Speaker 1: So the parents let the children sleep over at the
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  Speaker 1: teacher's house.
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  Speaker 3: Apparently, n Nancy, This is ultimately a grooming thing that
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  Speaker 3: took place. This fifth grade teach began her relationship with
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  Speaker 3: the mother. That's how she developed because she knew that
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  Speaker 3: the mom has three children and all three will be
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  Speaker 3: coming through her class as a fifth grade teacher, So
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  Speaker 3: she gets the oldest one, and that's where she begins
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  Speaker 3: the relationship with the mom, knowing and mom knowing that
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  Speaker 3: she's going to be my fifth grade teacher for my
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  Speaker 3: two other children. They begin that relationship, and all of
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  Speaker 3: a sudden, the fifth grade teacher begins babysitting. Hey, it's convenient.
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  Speaker 3: We know her, we trust her, so she makes a
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  Speaker 3: great babysitter. And that's where it all started.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, Dave Matt, isn't it true that you have a son?
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  Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am, Okay, I would not allow it.
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  Speaker 6: No.
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  Speaker 1: Do you remember when he was Do you remember when
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  Speaker 1: he was eleven?
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  Speaker 6: Yep?
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  Speaker 2: Okay.
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  Speaker 1: Can I tell you something. I had the greatest fifth
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  Speaker 1: grade teacher. She wasn't the only one at our public
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  Speaker 1: school out in the middle of rural bib County, doctor
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  Speaker 1: John H. Hurd Elementary School, Miss Amison, and of course
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  Speaker 1: my kindergarten, first grade, second grade, third grade, fifth grade
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  Speaker 1: and more teachers all sat behind our family at the
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  Speaker 1: Liberty United Methist Church on Sunday mornings too.
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  Speaker 2: All right. It was a very close knit Okay.
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  Speaker 1: They were sitting right there behind me on Sunday mornings
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  Speaker 1: with my family. That said, I get it because knowing
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  Speaker 1: those teachers, Dave mac and how wonderful they were. They
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  Speaker 1: taught not only me, my sister and my brother, but
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  Speaker 1: my mother. Okay, they taught my mother in elementary school.
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  Speaker 1: We knew them forever. And yes, yes, I could see
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  Speaker 1: them babysitting for us and not thinking about it.
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  Speaker 2: Twice, So I get it. But you were talking about the.
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  Speaker 1: Grooming process, how the grooming started with the mother. The
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  Speaker 1: teacher got to be friends with the mother, right.
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  Speaker 2: Right, That's exactly what happened. Okay, hold on, I'm glad
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  Speaker 2: you told me that.
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  Speaker 1: Wait a second, because I want to take that one
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  Speaker 1: tidbit and go out to Annasinota joining us author of
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  Speaker 1: Duck Duck Groom, Anna Sonoda.
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  Speaker 2: I get that part.
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  Speaker 1: I get it because if my mom had hired a babysitter,
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  Speaker 1: which we couldn't have because we couldn't afford it.
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  Speaker 2: But that's it.
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  Speaker 1: If we had a babysitter, I could see any of
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  Speaker 1: the teachers I just referred to first, second, third, fourth, fifth,
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  Speaker 1: and beyond as being the babysitter.
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  Speaker 2: They were that trusted and that close to our family.
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  Speaker 6: You're absolutely right. Over ninety percent of the time the
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  Speaker 6: victims are victimized by someone known and trusted, not just
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  Speaker 6: to the child themselves, but to the caregivers. And this
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  Speaker 6: case highlights the fact that when predators are positioned in
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  Speaker 6: environments close to minors with access in space, predators will
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  Speaker 6: take advantage of that every time. Here you have a
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  Speaker 6: teacher who's well positioned in the school system. She has
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  Speaker 6: gained respect. She started this job in twenty fourteen, began
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  Speaker 6: a relationship with the child and the child's mother, and
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  Speaker 6: exploited and charged upon that trust in order to get
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  Speaker 6: what she wanted, which was a sexual abuse situation with
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  Speaker 6: the child. This is an appalling abusive power and every
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  Speaker 6: listener needs to recognize that they are vulnerable as the
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  Speaker 6: adult when it comes to protecting their child from potential predators,
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  Speaker 6: even in trusting environments such as school.
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  Speaker 1: Guys, we were talking about a thirty four year old
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  Speaker 1: teacher giving birth to the baby of an eleven year
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  Speaker 1: old fifth grade student. The teacher has started babysitting for
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  Speaker 1: the family and that graduated into sleepovers of the siblings.
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  Speaker 1: When they would be babysat by this teacher could spend
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  Speaker 1: the night listen.
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  Speaker 8: The younger siblings noticed strange behavior from Karen and their
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  Speaker 8: eleven year old brother, and in the morning, the eldest
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  Speaker 8: brother's bed is usually empty. His siblings typically find him
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  Speaker 8: on the first floor, coming from Karen's bedroom. The younger
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  Speaker 8: siblings also frequently catch Karen going into the bathroom while
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  Speaker 8: their brother showers, then exiting with him, also wet and
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  Speaker 8: wearing a towel.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so let me understand Dave Matt joining us klim
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  Speaker 1: online dot com. Not only the eleven year old boy,
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  Speaker 1: but the siblings would all stit spend the night occasionally
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  Speaker 1: with the fifth grade teacher.
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  Speaker 2: Yep.
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  Speaker 3: And you know, think about it, Nancy, wouldn't that La
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  Speaker 3: Just it would make you not worry as much because
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  Speaker 3: all three of my kids are over there. They're all safe,
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  Speaker 3: they're with their teacher. But she played it out right
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  Speaker 3: in front of them. The kids knew something was going on.
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  Speaker 3: She didn't hide it. I mean, David, all go to
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  Speaker 3: bed upstairs.
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  Speaker 1: Up, Wait a minute, Dave Matt isn't the eleven year
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  Speaker 1: old boy. Is he the oldest of the three siblings, Yes,
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  Speaker 1: he is. Okay, So a lot of times you see
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  Speaker 1: things as a child and you don't understand that they're wrong. Right,
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  Speaker 1: So the younger siblings who are under eleven, may have
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: seen the teacher going in and out of the bathroom
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: when the eleven year old was in the bathroom and
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: didn't realize anything was wrong too, Doctor John Dell Tori
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: joining me, renounced psychologist, You may first ask, well, why
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: didn't they tell their parents?
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: They may not have realized there was anything to tell parents.
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you're exactly right, Nancy. What they know is that
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: something is different, but they don't know something is wrong.
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: And depending on how their parents presented sexual behaviors and
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: what is bad touch and what is good touch, what
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: authority is, what trust is depending on that, they may
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: not be sophisticated enough to know that their brother is
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: being abused, and the brother doesn't know any different, right,
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: The oldest of them just thinks that he's getting all
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: of this special attention. She wants everybody to believe that
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: everything is happening is okay, that nothing is going wrong.
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: By not calling attention to stuff, by making sure everybody's there,
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: all the children are there together, she's kind of making
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: sure that no suspicion is brought upon her, that she's
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: actually engaging in criminal acts.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
• 19:07
  Speaker 10: South Jersey fifth grade teacher Laura Karen is accused of
• 19:10
  Speaker 10: sexually abusing her student for four years but the horrors
• 19:13
  Speaker 10: don't stop. There. Authorities alleged the thirteen year old victim
• 19:17
  Speaker 10: is the father of Karen's five year old son.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: Well, there's your evidence. All you need is a DNA
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: test on the baby boy. And let me just tell you,
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: the family noticed first, without any DNA test, that the
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: little baby looked like the boy had the eleven year
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: old boy had spit him out. He'll just like the
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: eleven year old boy. The similarity was overwhelming. Guys, in
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: our digital age, the possibility for teachers to pray on
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: their students is has skyrocketed exponentially. I'm talking about a teacher,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: Pamela Rogers, who raped her student.
• 20:02
  Speaker 11: Listen, I'm betraying my profession and then sent them that
• 20:06
  Speaker 11: I'm truly ashamed of. Can I betray the family and
• 20:09
  Speaker 11: the victim.
• 20:13
  Speaker 12: Pamela Rogers, a pe teacher and coach at Centertown Elementary,
• 20:16
  Speaker 12: happens to have a close friend's thirteen year old son
• 20:19
  Speaker 12: in her class. When Rogers falls between places, the mom
• 20:22
  Speaker 12: allows Rogers to stay with her for a few months.
• 20:25
  Speaker 12: During the stay, she finds her son in bed with Rogers.
• 20:28
  Speaker 12: Rogers spends nine months in jail and on her release,
• 20:32
  Speaker 12: strikes up her relationship with the boy again, sending him
• 20:35
  Speaker 12: provocative and even nude photos and videos using her father's
• 20:38
  Speaker 12: cell phone.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: Oh my stars, it's Mary Kayla Turno all over again.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: The mom gives Pamela.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: Rogers a place to crash for a few weeks, finds
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Pamela Rogers, the teacher in bed with her son. Pamela
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Rogers goes to jail, and what does she do The
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: minute she gets out after a few months out out
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: behind bars, she's back at it, praying on a little boy.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: Now it doesn't just in there. You heard that Pamela
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: Rodgers would send videos.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: Look at this video. Brace yourself. This is okay.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Here she's slinking up the camera. Oh, this is too
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: A little boy, a thirteen just turned thirteen year old
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: little boy. And trust me, I've cut this video. I
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: have cut a lot of it out because she turns
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: around and gives a serious booty shot show after this. Okay,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: control room seen enough of Pamela Rogers shimmying up the
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: camera joining me in a sonoda, Child sex abuse and
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: grooming expert, author of Duck Duck Groom, Anna, did you
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: see the video? How can the parents know? Unless they
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: come through the child's phone every night that the teacher,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: of all people is sending these videos.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Nancy.
• 21:57
  Speaker 6: The thing about predators is that they are everywhere, but
• 21:59
  Speaker 6: they're not everyone, and they stand out in their strange behavior.
• 22:03
  Speaker 6: You know, we used to hear the term stranger danger.
• 22:06
  Speaker 6: I want your audience to remember strange behavior. These teachers
• 22:10
  Speaker 6: are clear examples of distorted, sick women who are showing
• 22:17
  Speaker 6: and displaying repeatedly strange behavior after strange behavior. And in
• 22:22
  Speaker 6: this situation, you have a keen audience because you have
• 22:26
  Speaker 6: a classroom of vulnerable students, and predators are selective. They
• 22:30
  Speaker 6: can select the families and the children to groom in
• 22:34
  Speaker 6: order to be successful in their abuse. And these cases
• 22:37
  Speaker 6: are devastating for the male victims.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: You know, Dolatory, this teacher, she looks like she should
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: be on a stripper pole at the Gold Club. Whatever,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Doctor DELATORI she made that video with a little boy
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: in mind. It's not why she was putting it on
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: her OnlyFans website for grown men. That was made specifically
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: for a little boy. At what point, and I'm going
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: to follow up with criminal defense attorney Mark Tate, at
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: what point when you're doing something wrong. Do you not go, hey,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: this is wrong?
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Do criminals not?
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: When I even tell a lie I feel hot all over.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: I'm convinced I'm going to be caught because I always am.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: I feel bad about it. Does that not kick in
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: with criminals? I mean, she's making this video and it's
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: specifically expressly made to send a little boy who's just
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: turned thirteen. At what point do you go, hey, I
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: should probably put some clothes on and not send this video.
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: They did it early, very early on, potentially even before
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: they even decided to engage in a contact abuse right
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: where they actually decided to touch the victim. But that
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: was overridden right by the compulsion to want to abuse
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: the victim. It was overridden by the justifications and rationalizations
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: that they tell themselves that they tell other people.
• 23:58
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: We see all these videos of them, you know, with
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: Mary Kayla Turno and Pamela Rogers apologizing while they're in court.
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: They're only sorry that they got If they were actually sorry,
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: then they never would have done it in the beginning.
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: So everything is about their own compulsion in satisfying their
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: own needs that it overrides the guilty feelings that every
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: other one of us who wouldn't do this, would be experiencing.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: In a sonoda.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: It seems to me we're talking a lot tonight about
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: treatment and making the rapist get better.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, have I lost my mind? What about the boy?
• 24:32
  Speaker 6: You haven't lost your mind, Nancy. I think our focus
• 24:35
  Speaker 6: needs to be on this young victim, not to mention
• 24:39
  Speaker 6: he is a victim here, but also this five year
• 24:42
  Speaker 6: old baby who was born out of a rape. Now
• 24:46
  Speaker 6: this is going to be something that he will have
• 24:48
  Speaker 6: to come to terms with as he grows and develops.
• 24:51
  Speaker 6: You've got two very severely damaged young boys in this situation,
• 24:57
  Speaker 6: and it can be a lifelong recovery for victims and
• 25:01
  Speaker 6: survivors of child sexual abuse. But it certainly improved outcomes
• 25:05
  Speaker 6: when there are consequences for predators. And too often with
• 25:10
  Speaker 6: female offenders, we just write it off and we say, oh,
• 25:14
  Speaker 6: she's not that harmful, she's not that much of a
• 25:16
  Speaker 6: concern to society, and.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: In factful, wait a minute, Anna a sonoda, I think
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: that there are other victims.
• 25:23
  Speaker 13: Listen to this, Anna, Well, Karen and the children watch
• 25:26
  Speaker 13: TV before bed. Karen always sits with the eldest, eleven
• 25:29
  Speaker 13: year old boy in a reclining chair. The two younger
• 25:32
  Speaker 13: children usually fall asleep while watching a movie, but one evening,
• 25:36
  Speaker 13: the middle brother, eight, wakes up and notices Karen and
• 25:39
  Speaker 13: his brother shifting around in the reclining chair. The two
• 25:42
  Speaker 13: are covered by a blanket, but he can tell Karen's
• 25:44
  Speaker 13: hand is moving under the blanket on his brother's genitals.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Anna, Sinota, you were mentioning victims. What about the siblings
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: of this boy that were there when all of this
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: was happening. Anna, could you describe how this affects a child,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: even a boy, for the rest of their lives.
• 26:04
  Speaker 6: Anna, I think one of the ways that we can
• 26:07
  Speaker 6: improve outcomes is from a acknowledging that when female predators
• 26:12
  Speaker 6: abuse young male victims, it is the exact same damage
• 26:17
  Speaker 6: as if the genders were reversed. What we have in
• 26:21
  Speaker 6: society is allowing female predators to quote unquote educate young
• 26:27
  Speaker 6: boys about sex and intimacy, and that fance does not
• 26:33
  Speaker 6: facilitate recovery and growth for victims. First of all, we
• 26:38
  Speaker 6: need to be glad that in this case it was
• 26:40
  Speaker 6: even reported. We had to wait for a baby to
• 26:44
  Speaker 6: turn five before we even acknowledge that this abuse was
• 26:48
  Speaker 6: going on. What we have to keep in mind is
• 26:51
  Speaker 6: that males who are victimized in their youth rarely reported.
• 26:55
  Speaker 6: Female predators rarely get charged or convicted. If they are convicted,
• 27:00
  Speaker 6: they get reduced sentences at enormous rates, and it perverses
• 27:07
  Speaker 6: sexual relationships for the adult survivors as they go through
• 27:11
  Speaker 6: their relationships. So this is an enormous problem that we
• 27:14
  Speaker 6: all must acknowledge and to even take that first step
• 27:19
  Speaker 6: of awareness that females can be predators. We often think
• 27:24
  Speaker 6: of females as the safe gender, the safe sex. Well,
• 27:28
  Speaker 6: these cases, Nancy highlight the fact that parents need to
• 27:32
  Speaker 6: be on guard for signs of grooming and then if
• 27:35
  Speaker 6: they recognize any of those day.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: And what do you mean by signs of grooming?
• 27:40
  Speaker 6: There are four stages of grooming Nancy, flattery, favoritism, forbidden fruits,
• 27:44
  Speaker 6: and fear. These predators are selective and intentional. The grooming
• 27:49
  Speaker 6: process is incremental. I think we need to highlight that
• 27:53
  Speaker 6: grooming is going on and when it does, it's observable.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: The boy's mother is scrolling through Facebook when she comes
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: across with Laura Karen's son, who's now five years old.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: She shows the photo to her husband, who comments that
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: the boy looks strikingly similar to their oldest son. Their
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: daughter's reaction to that comment sparks an interrogation, and she
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: gives them enough information to immediately call their son with
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: his mom. He admits he fathered Karen's baby, but he
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: begs her to let it go because he doesn't want
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: Karen to get in trouble.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: So let me understand. Dave Matt joining US Crime online
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter. Scrolling through Facebook, the mother spots
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: the baby's picture and says, that is uncanny.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: It looks just like our son.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Tell me, that's how the case got cracked open. The
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: similarity was so uncanny.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: She showed it to her husband, the boy's father, and said,
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: take a look at this. He looks at it and
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: posts on Facebook and just says, there's no way this
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: is my DNA, this is my son's. He went public
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: with it right then, and that's when everything happened. I mean,
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: it was amazing how quick it all went up when
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: he posted that on Facebook.
• 29:05
  Speaker 14: Nancy Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Dave mac Is it
• 29:18
  Speaker 14: true that the boys the victim, the eleven year old boy,
• 29:24
  Speaker 14: allowed all the siblings to move in with the teacher
• 29:30
  Speaker 14: that started as her babysitting, then occasional sleepovers, to the
• 29:34
  Speaker 14: point they let the children all move in with the teacher.
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: Yes, we don't know the reason why. We don't know
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: what happened. That hasn't been public yet, but we do
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: know that for a period of time, the parents allowed
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: all three children to live and be under the care
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: of this so called teacher. She was considered like a
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: foster parent. I think in New Jersey they have a
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: different term. They don't use false parent. They call them
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: a resource family parent or something along those lines. And
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: yet that's exactly what was happening. They spent years with
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: this woman in her care without mom and dad. I
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: don't know where mom and dad were or what was
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: going on. Yeah, they're referred to as a resource family parent.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: That's what a foster parent is called. And that's how
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: she was treated as this went forward. No idea why yet,
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: Oh this is.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Like carding your children off, Sure, keep them okay? Is
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: bringing to mind another many people believe is a beautiful
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: young teacher. When I look at her, I just say,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: mills abub the Devil's hints person. I'm talking about Deborah
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: lefav listen.
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: A fourteen year old Florida boy takes his obviously older
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: girlfriend to visit his cousin. His aunt, Alarm tells his mother.
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: The boy admits the woman as his married eighth grade
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: English teacher, Deborah La Fave. La Fay blames her four
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: sex encounters with the boy on hyper sexuality due to
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: bipolar disease. Deboraha Fave's attorney, John Fitzgibbons says in court
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: to play Debbie into a federal state woman's finite entry.
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: To place an attractive young woman in that kind of
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: hell hole is like putting a piece of raw meat
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: in with the lions. Leaveb is sentenced to just three
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: years of house arrest and lifetime registration as a sex offender.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: So why do you think you got all the attention?
• 31:16
  Speaker 10: I don't know, I'll say I Do you think it's
• 31:19
  Speaker 10: because you're pretty?
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: I think so.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: In sex South, I don't know if you call being
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: sentenced for child sex abuses attention.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: That's my friends at NBC. So let me understand something.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: Dave Mack.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: In the case of deb La Fave, the attorney said
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: to the court, she's too pretty for jail, and she
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: got house arrest.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: YEP, that's basically what hitry. Attorney was Fitzgibbons. That was
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: his argument to the court, she's just too pretty. It'll
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: just be horrible for her, it won't be fair. And
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: that was gr she's too pretty for prison. We all
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: talked about it forever because that's the most ridiculous argument
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: of all time.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: But it worked.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Mark Tate, high profile lawyer joining us out of the
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Savannah juristic. And have you ever actually used a similar
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: argument too delicate, too fragile, too pretty to whatever for prison?
• 32:07
  Speaker 9: Nothing like that. Remember Nancy that a lot of my
• 32:10
  Speaker 9: civil cases focus on priests, boy scout sex abuse cases.
• 32:15
  Speaker 9: I've even represented the parents of children who got molested
• 32:17
  Speaker 9: on airplanes. And so while I do criminal defense work,
• 32:21
  Speaker 9: I don't really see a whole lot of sympathy for
• 32:24
  Speaker 9: perpetrators like this particular lady we're talking about, because a
• 32:27
  Speaker 9: predator is a predator, and when we turn them loose,
• 32:31
  Speaker 9: as will happen if we don't take out that predilection
• 32:35
  Speaker 9: that they have to hurt people in the future, it's
• 32:37
  Speaker 9: going to continue. I've seen it with priests, I've seen
• 32:39
  Speaker 9: it with boy scouts, I've seen it with all different
• 32:42
  Speaker 9: sorts of professions, including psychiatrists and medical doctors. If they're
• 32:46
  Speaker 9: not taken out and shown how and not be permitted
• 32:51
  Speaker 9: in these kinds of situations, they're a problem forever. But
• 32:53
  Speaker 9: I'll promise you that what we're going to find with
• 32:55
  Speaker 9: every single one of these people if we dig deeply
• 32:57
  Speaker 9: into it, and I think doctor Delatory or would agree,
• 33:00
  Speaker 9: as they always are going to find why it's someone
• 33:03
  Speaker 9: else's fault. But I think that you know, we're going
• 33:07
  Speaker 9: to see that common thread through all of these predators,
• 33:10
  Speaker 9: and you know, the lifetime monitoring that happens, that maybe
• 33:13
  Speaker 9: what's necessary for the teacher Karan. I am just blown
• 33:17
  Speaker 9: away by the fact that teachers are able to get
• 33:20
  Speaker 9: this close to students, and in this particular instance, I
• 33:23
  Speaker 9: find it interesting that she managed to get through the
• 33:26
  Speaker 9: foster care system as well.
• 33:28
  Speaker 13: As Karen's son gets older, the younger siblings grow even
• 33:31
  Speaker 13: more suspicious that their brother is the toddler's father. Over text,
• 33:35
  Speaker 13: the boy's sister confronts him about his relationship with Karen
• 33:38
  Speaker 13: and point blank asks her brother if the baby is his.
• 33:41
  Speaker 13: Her brother admits that yes, he is the child's father,
• 33:44
  Speaker 13: but he convinces his sister not to tell anyone about it,
• 33:47
  Speaker 13: fearing both him and Karen would get in trouble.
• 33:50
  Speaker 5: Early in this full year, parents met with police reporting
• 33:53
  Speaker 5: their child had been sexually assaulted by mccommon. The now
• 33:56
  Speaker 5: sixteen year old student said he was twelve years old
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: at the time, and in seventh The assault happened in
• 34:01
  Speaker 5: the Mcommon home. He says, sometime in the night, the
• 34:04
  Speaker 5: teacher woke him and sexually assaulted him. Multiple juveniles have
• 34:07
  Speaker 5: now come forward claiming mccommon played video games with them online,
• 34:11
  Speaker 5: befriending them. The contact progressed to communication through social media apps,
• 34:15
  Speaker 5: where the teacher reportedly sent inappropriate photos and asked for sex.
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: According to Believe.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, we're talking about Alissa mccommon, another teacher that rapes
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: the student.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Now catch this after she has the baby.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: This is what she says to the then twelve year
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: old boy. Listen, okay, joining me. Ron Bateman, former homicide
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: undercover cop. You can find me, Ron Bateman and books. Ron,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: do you hear the teacher time to put the twelve
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: year old boy on a guilt trip. What if she
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: wanted to do go get a construction job to support
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: their baby.
• 34:58
  Speaker 7: Exactly like the gentleman said earlier, and he didn't choose
• 35:03
  Speaker 7: this word. But you know, and you can tell me
• 35:05
  Speaker 7: as a prosecutor, how many narcissists actually plead guilty take responsibility.
• 35:10
  Speaker 7: And this last victim, I mean, this last suspect, you're
• 35:13
  Speaker 7: talking about, same thing, trying to shift the blame on
• 35:16
  Speaker 7: the victim. It's unbelievable.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, think about it, Ron Bateman.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: She statutory rapes. What is a twelve year old boy repeatedly,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: over and over, gets pregnant, has the baby, and then
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: calls to say, I'll raise the baby and I'll love
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: the baby and I'll.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: Do it by myself. What does she want the twelve
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: year old boy to do exactly?
• 35:36
  Speaker 7: And if this really gets my goat here, no one's
• 35:41
  Speaker 7: talking about the eight hundred pound elephant in the room.
• 35:43
  Speaker 7: And that's the parents who literally abandoned their responsibility as parents.
• 35:47
  Speaker 7: In my opinion, Like it's like a car, like I'm
• 35:50
  Speaker 7: done with this car and here you can have it.
• 35:52
  Speaker 7: And that's what they did with Karen. Here you go, Karen,
• 35:56
  Speaker 7: as Karen, you raised my children. We're done with them
• 35:59
  Speaker 7: for now. You know, we need a break. And as
• 36:02
  Speaker 7: the parents you know, we don't get breaks. You know,
• 36:04
  Speaker 7: you got to raise these kids forever, you know, at
• 36:06
  Speaker 7: least until they're adults. And that's not what happened. And
• 36:09
  Speaker 7: I got a chief super from the Middletown Township Police.
• 36:14
  Speaker 7: He put out a quote, and I think there should
• 36:16
  Speaker 7: be a comma and another continuation of this quote. His
• 36:19
  Speaker 7: quote was, I want to personally assure the parents of Middletown,
• 36:22
  Speaker 7: of middle Township that we are taught taking every step
• 36:25
  Speaker 7: possible to ensure the safety of our children. Then it
• 36:28
  Speaker 7: should be comma and parents you should do the same,
• 36:32
  Speaker 7: which in this case, to me, was just just a
• 36:35
  Speaker 7: total abandonment of a parental responsibility.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: You know, I've been wondering how these children end up
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: living full time with the teacher. It started with her babysitting,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: then it ended up this day, a few nice a
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: week over there, and then ultimately moving in. And I'm
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: wondering about all the other teachers that we have shown.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: How was it that the children, the boy children could
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: spend so much alone time with the teacher and the
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: parents never.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Know anything about it.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: To doctor John delatori a renowned psychologists joining us. Doctor Delatory,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: I'm just curious if you could explain what grooming is.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: So parents that don't know, innocent parents that don't know,
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: can't recognize grooming when they see it.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: What is it?
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: For instance, and my son plays video games, he plays
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: with a group of his friends, and I have a rule,
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: and that is you cannot play online with anybody you
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: don't know in real life, that you haven't met, that
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: you don't know.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: But if I see a.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Teacher sliding into that Fortnite game, oh yeah, oh, Hill's
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: going to break loose.
• 37:48
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: So grooming is the process by which someone breaks down
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: these psychological barriers that would prevent a victimizer from victimizing
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: that individual. They do this different kinds of ways, you know,
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: typically flattery, making statements about how smart the person is
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: or how attractive the person is. Even when they know
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: that that is a child, they will still make statements
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: like this. They will still adulter right, they will still
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: make the child victim somewhat of an adult. They will
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: kind of in their mind raise the age because then
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: that puts a spotlight on the child, and children want
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: to feel appreciated, they want to have a connection, they
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: want to have that spotlight. So offenders use that for
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: nefarious purposes, and they'll do it with everybody, especially with
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: the parents. They have to assuage the fears of the
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: parents by making it so that you know, they that
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: they're there as a comfort that the victimizer is there
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: is a comfort, breaking down those psychological barriers so that
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: the parent doesn't think that anything bad would be happening.
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: And that's the trick, that's the scam that offenders are doing,
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: making people believe that nothing is happening.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: You know or think you know anything about this case.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: There is a detainment hearing about to go down. Please
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: contact the Special Victims Unit six zero nine four sixty
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: five one one three five repeat six zero nine four
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: sixty five one one three five are their other child victims.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: We remember now an American Hero Officer Michael Maxheimer, Shannon
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: Hill's p D Arkansas, killed in the line of duty.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Served Shannon Hill's PD three years, leaving behind his daughters Brooklyn,
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Dorothy and Jelinda, and life partner Claudia. American hero Michael Maxheimer.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off goodbye friend.