Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #925 Single Sex vs Co-Ed Schools - Which is Best?

Transcript

#925 Single Sex vs Co-Ed Schools - Which is Best? · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
0:05
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for.
0:07
Speaker 1: The time poor parent who just wants answers Now.
0:10
Speaker 2: Just over a week ago, we received an email that
0:13
Speaker 2: caught my attention. Podcasts at happy families dot com is
0:16
Speaker 2: the email address podcasts with an s at happy families
0:20
Speaker 2: dot com. Somebody shot through an email and what they
0:24
Speaker 2: basically said was the start of the year, we've been
0:27
Speaker 2: trying to work out what to do about our kids
0:28
Speaker 2: and schooling. We try to work out same gender or
0:32
Speaker 2: co ed what should we do? What does the research say?
0:36
Speaker 2: And so I dive into the research. Kylie had a
0:39
Speaker 2: good look at it. I had some pretty strong preconceived
0:41
Speaker 2: ideas based on my experiences in and around both co
0:45
Speaker 2: ed and same gender schools. I mean, I've been working
0:48
Speaker 2: in and around schools now for about fifteen years, and
0:51
Speaker 2: I was quite surprised by what the research had to say.
0:54
Speaker 1: I know, the school selection is a huge consideration for
0:57
Speaker 1: parents across the country the world, like we're constantly trying
1:02
Speaker 1: to work out.
1:03
Speaker 2: We've done podcasts on it, right, webinar it's the.
1:05
Speaker 1: Best school is and where we should send our kids?
1:07
Speaker 1: And the sleepless nights and the anxiety and all of
1:10
Speaker 1: that that's associated with making this decision and wondering whether
1:15
Speaker 1: or not we're doing the right thing. But as far
1:17
Speaker 1: as same sex schools go, there are actually many around No, not.
1:21
Speaker 2: Really, So I did some digging and what I found
1:24
Speaker 2: was that there's a round about let's say nine and
1:27
Speaker 2: a half ten thousand schools in Australia, give or take
1:30
Speaker 2: something in that ten thousand school ballpark, less than four
1:34
Speaker 2: percent of all schools, so that would be less than
1:37
Speaker 2: four hundred schools in the country, either all boy or
1:40
Speaker 2: all girls schools. And what we're finding is increasingly government
1:45
Speaker 2: schools are shutting down the single sex schools and going
1:49
Speaker 2: co ed. There's still a lot more private schools, but
1:52
Speaker 2: the government schools are increasingly hard to find. In fact,
1:55
Speaker 2: you can only find them in New South Wales, South Australia, Victoria.
1:58
Speaker 1: I was going to say, I don't have one around
2:01
Speaker 1: us at.
2:01
Speaker 2: All, No government schools, No plenty of same gender private schools.
2:07
Speaker 2: But something else that I found this is really fascinating.
2:09
Speaker 2: I think when I was doing the digging, there is
2:11
Speaker 2: a premium that parents place on single sex schools, so
2:16
Speaker 2: much so that real estate in areas where there is
2:19
Speaker 2: a same gender school is pricier, and it's not just
2:23
Speaker 2: because they're in the fancy inner city areas, which is
2:25
Speaker 2: more often than not the case, not all of them are.
2:28
Speaker 2: But what I found was when it comes to government schools,
2:33
Speaker 2: the suburbs where those single sex government schools are located
2:37
Speaker 2: get about a two percent premium for a house, which,
2:41
Speaker 2: if you're looking at an average home, is somewhere around
2:43
Speaker 2: the twenty to twenty five thousand dollars boost in those states. Obviously,
2:47
Speaker 2: some of those suburbs are worth a lot more and
2:49
Speaker 2: some are worth a bit less, but on average, we're
2:51
Speaker 2: talking about a significant premium just to live in an
2:56
Speaker 2: area where there is a single sex school so that
2:58
Speaker 2: parents can get their kids in there. That's how prized
3:01
Speaker 2: it is in the eyes of enough of the population.
3:04
Speaker 1: I find that intriguing.
3:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, especially since a close look at the evidence
3:10
Speaker 2: indicates that people might be paying for well, there's arguments
3:14
Speaker 2: for and arguments against. Why don't we go through the
3:17
Speaker 2: arguments for the pros in theory, Okay, in theory why
3:22
Speaker 2: people might want a single sex school for their kids.
3:24
Speaker 2: So academics make the following five central arguments for why
3:29
Speaker 2: same sex schools are positive. First off, there's an argument
3:32
Speaker 2: that academic performance is higher. It's commonly accepted that you
3:36
Speaker 2: get better our academic outcomes in a single sex school.
3:40
Speaker 1: So my impression, and it is just my impression. I've
3:43
Speaker 1: had no experience, but my impression is that same sex schools,
3:47
Speaker 1: generally speaking, it's very competitive to get in. They are
3:51
Speaker 1: in very prestigious suburbs to start with, so it costs
3:56
Speaker 1: a lot. The average person doesn't just walk in the door.
4:00
Speaker 1: And as a result, the resources that are available to
4:04
Speaker 1: these kids, not only within the school setting, but within
4:07
Speaker 1: their own homes and neighborhoods would obviously give them a
4:12
Speaker 1: greater advantage than the average student at the public school
4:16
Speaker 1: down the road.
4:16
Speaker 2: This is a really important insight that you've raised. I'm
4:18
Speaker 2: so stoked that you came up with that. When socioeconomic
4:21
Speaker 2: status is controlled for in academic research and the appropriate
4:25
Speaker 2: variables are controlled for, the difference between single sex and
4:29
Speaker 2: co ed schools drops to practically zero. So in theory,
4:32
Speaker 2: they're better. But once you look at the real world
4:34
Speaker 2: ramifications how that plays out, you're absolutely right, single sex
4:38
Speaker 2: schools will outperform co ed schools, but it actually usually
4:41
Speaker 2: has more to do with the postcode than it has
4:43
Speaker 2: to do with what's happening in the school. At least
4:46
Speaker 2: that's what it looks like from a statistical point of view.
4:48
Speaker 2: Second key thing that proponents will argue make single sex
4:53
Speaker 2: schools better is that there's an argument that there's reduced
4:56
Speaker 2: gender stereotyping. Essentially, if there are a whole bunch of
5:01
Speaker 2: girls at a school or a whole bunch of boys
5:04
Speaker 2: at a school, the idea is that they're more likely
5:07
Speaker 2: to dabble in a broader range of subjects and activities
5:10
Speaker 2: without feeling like they have to live up to a
5:12
Speaker 2: certain gender expectation or follow a particular bias.
5:17
Speaker 1: Is that actually playing out though, in what we're seeing
5:20
Speaker 1: as a result, like a girl's coming out being computer
5:24
Speaker 1: geniuses and you know, doing things that would stereotypically not
5:28
Speaker 1: be female driven careers as a result of the fact
5:33
Speaker 1: that they're not competing with males and vice versa.
5:36
Speaker 2: This one is a little bit complicated, and when I
5:38
Speaker 2: look carefully at the data, what I find is this.
5:41
Speaker 2: So again, looking at what the pros apparently are and
5:43
Speaker 2: then how they truly play out in the real world,
5:46
Speaker 2: there is definitely evidence that girls are much more inclined
5:49
Speaker 2: in a in an all girls environment to spread their
5:53
Speaker 2: wings and enroll in subjects that are traditionally and I
5:57
Speaker 2: sort of chafe at the word traditionally, but I'll use
5:59
Speaker 2: it anyway, that traditionally more likely to be oriented towards boys.
6:04
Speaker 1: So I'm guessing based on that, you're talking more about
6:08
Speaker 1: those academically robust subjects.
6:10
Speaker 2: Chemistry, physics, high level maths, all that kind of stuff, engineering,
6:13
Speaker 2: all the stem subjects, basically the science, technology, engineering, math subjects.
6:17
Speaker 2: Girls in single sex schools are much more likely to
6:19
Speaker 2: go into those areas than they might be in a
6:21
Speaker 2: co ed environment. Now that's not to say girls in
6:23
Speaker 2: co ed environments don't. It's just that the likelihood the
6:26
Speaker 2: gender stereotyping is lower in a girls school. But what
6:30
Speaker 2: I find fascinating, and I should also mention logitun or
6:33
Speaker 2: data shows that girls from single sex schools are not
6:36
Speaker 2: more likely to major in physical or life sciences than
6:39
Speaker 2: their co educational peers once they get to UNI. Okay,
6:42
Speaker 2: so that seems to water down once they get into
6:44
Speaker 2: university and can choose whatever they want. But here's the thing.
6:47
Speaker 2: Boys in or boys' schools aren't in the main signing
6:51
Speaker 2: up for traditionally female subjects.
6:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're still sticking to very traditionally accepted male
6:59
Speaker 1: correct Domini subjects.
7:00
Speaker 2: Which in some ways becomes a con right because of
7:03
Speaker 2: the hot housing of male stereotyping. But we'll get there
7:06
Speaker 2: in a sec. Third big reason that people will say
7:09
Speaker 2: single sex schools are better is just the idea of
7:11
Speaker 2: increased confidence. Some research indicates that students in same sex
7:16
Speaker 2: schools may develop high levels of confidence because they're not
7:19
Speaker 2: competing with the opposite gender in terms of their academic
7:22
Speaker 2: activities their extracurricular activities. I think in real life this
7:27
Speaker 2: is more of an issue for girls than it is
7:29
Speaker 2: for boys.
7:30
Speaker 1: I was about to say, I actually feel like this
7:32
Speaker 1: would be a benefit to girls. I feel like being
7:36
Speaker 1: able to participate in different subjects and just be accepted
7:41
Speaker 1: for who you are and what you're capable of instead
7:45
Speaker 1: of being stereotyped within that co ed situation would really
7:50
Speaker 1: increase a girl's ability and confidence to move forward.
7:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the idea there. The theory is that it
7:58
Speaker 2: boosts confidence. I think that there's a gender difference at play,
8:01
Speaker 2: although I can't find evidence to support my theorizing, So
8:05
Speaker 2: I just need to tread gently. There the two other
8:07
Speaker 2: things that are quickly worth mentioning in terms of pros
8:10
Speaker 2: tailored teaching strategies. Now, this is a big one, and
8:13
Speaker 2: what I have found, I've watched this happen. Educators in
8:16
Speaker 2: single sex schools are very much able to tailor their
8:19
Speaker 2: teaching methods to better suit the learning styles and the
8:21
Speaker 2: preferences of particular gender, which means that we can help
8:25
Speaker 2: them with those academic outcomes, or at least, if not
8:27
Speaker 2: academic outcomes, based on what we're saying before, at least
8:30
Speaker 2: with better engagement. We need to take the post code
8:32
Speaker 2: issue into consideration here as well. We just talked about that.
8:35
Speaker 2: But the other thing to bear in mind is that
8:38
Speaker 2: there is more within gender variation than there is between
8:42
Speaker 2: gender variation. That is, girls range from very high to
8:46
Speaker 2: very low on a whole lot of variables, as do boys.
8:49
Speaker 2: On average, Girls or boys might be higher or lower
8:52
Speaker 2: on one than the other, but the difference between the
8:54
Speaker 2: genders isn't enormous. There's much more within gender variation than
8:59
Speaker 2: between variation. Nevertheless, I do see it happen, especially when
9:03
Speaker 2: I'm in boys' schools. I watch the way the teachers
9:06
Speaker 2: engage with the boys, and I compare that to what's
9:08
Speaker 2: happening in girls schools, and it really is absolutely different. Yeah,
9:13
Speaker 2: fundamentally different, and I can't help but think that that
9:16
Speaker 2: has to be a positive, a real positive for both
9:19
Speaker 2: the girls or the boys in those schools. The final
9:22
Speaker 2: major pro in theory is that there's minimized distractions.
9:27
Speaker 1: Well, I guess that's probably the one that most people
9:30
Speaker 1: talk about all the time in their decision to send
9:33
Speaker 1: their kids to The.
9:34
Speaker 2: Girls don't have to worry about the boys, and the
9:36
Speaker 2: boys don't have to worry about the girls, So they're
9:39
Speaker 2: the pros.
9:43
Speaker 1: I'm interested to know what the cons are because based
9:47
Speaker 1: on what you've shared, it would seem like sending your
9:50
Speaker 1: kids to a same sex school actually sounds pretty good.
9:54
Speaker 2: It does, and I completely understand why parents would choose
9:57
Speaker 2: to do that. Let me go through four cons really quickly,
9:59
Speaker 2: because there are, I think concerning drawbacks to same sex education. Now, again,
10:03
Speaker 2: this is the theoretical stuff. We need to talk about
10:05
Speaker 2: on the ground practical stuff shortly. But number one, there
10:08
Speaker 2: is the limited social interaction. Okay, so most critics of
10:12
Speaker 2: same sex education are going to say that being in
10:15
Speaker 2: a school with all the kids of the same gender
10:17
Speaker 2: are going to limit students exposure at diverse perspectives, and
10:20
Speaker 2: it's going to reduce opportunities for healthy social interaction between
10:22
Speaker 2: the genders.
10:23
Speaker 1: I find this interesting, though, because it's not like school
10:27
Speaker 1: is their only social network, or we're treating it like
10:31
Speaker 1: it is it's the only time that they'll get out.
10:33
Speaker 2: Well for some it is, especially for the boys or
10:36
Speaker 2: girls who are a boarding school, for example, or for
10:38
Speaker 2: the kids who extremely studious or have a lot of
10:42
Speaker 2: pressure placed on them by parents who pretty much say,
10:44
Speaker 2: go to school, then come home and study. We're talking
10:46
Speaker 2: about later years, particularly, or whose lives are so full
10:49
Speaker 2: of extracurricular activities that they're not getting a lot of
10:51
Speaker 2: social interaction with the other gender. It's not a high
10:54
Speaker 2: probability outcome, but it certainly does happen.
10:58
Speaker 1: But those things would be problematic whether you are at
11:01
Speaker 1: a co ed school or not, because your level of
11:05
Speaker 1: social interaction is limited based on all of those things.
11:09
Speaker 2: The second major theoretical con is real world preparedness. What
11:14
Speaker 2: I mean by that is that there are people who
11:15
Speaker 2: will argue that same sex education may not adequately prepare
11:18
Speaker 2: students for the real world where they're going to have
11:21
Speaker 2: to interact with people of all genders in various settings.
11:25
Speaker 2: To me, it's bunk.
11:26
Speaker 1: I mean, their teachers aren't all female, whether their teachers
11:30
Speaker 1: aren't all male, not.
11:31
Speaker 2: Just that, but they've got family members and they do
11:34
Speaker 2: actually have life outside of school. So I find that
11:36
Speaker 2: one really quite a weak argument against it. The other two.
11:40
Speaker 2: This one is a big one stereotype reinforcement. There is
11:44
Speaker 2: a concern that single sex environments might inadvertently, sometimes even
11:52
Speaker 2: explicitly and intentionally reinforced gender stereotypes by removing the opportunity
11:57
Speaker 2: for students to learn about and appreciate the differences between
11:59
Speaker 2: the genders.
12:00
Speaker 1: I feel like this one would actually play out more
12:04
Speaker 1: so in boys' schools well. I feel like, as a whole,
12:09
Speaker 1: societies really worked hard at giving women opportunities and helping
12:16
Speaker 1: girls recognize that, you know, they don't have to fall
12:18
Speaker 1: into stereotypes, Whereas I still think there's still a lot
12:20
Speaker 1: of work for us to do in helping our boys
12:24
Speaker 1: to grow into healthy, productive men.
12:27
Speaker 2: I hear people share those sentiments a lot. That's one
12:30
Speaker 2: of the big concerns, and I want to give a
12:32
Speaker 2: couple of examples of that shortly narrower skill set development
12:35
Speaker 2: is the fourth and final idea. Essentially, exposure to diverse
12:38
Speaker 2: perspectives in a co educational setting can contribute to the
12:42
Speaker 2: development of interpersonal skills that are crucial for ongoing success,
12:46
Speaker 2: which might be limited in a same sex environment. I
12:48
Speaker 2: mean to me, this is a variation of the second
12:50
Speaker 2: one that we shared, but it comes up a lot
12:52
Speaker 2: and people frame it and phrase it in different ways.
12:55
Speaker 2: His help plays out in the real world. I've already
12:59
Speaker 2: talked about stereo types, have already talked about academic performance.
13:02
Speaker 2: But when we move away from theory and get into
13:03
Speaker 2: what's really happening when it comes to girls, we know
13:08
Speaker 2: this social and emotional well being is lower for girls
13:11
Speaker 2: in co ed schools than in single sex schools, And
13:14
Speaker 2: we also know that girls in co ed schools do
13:17
Speaker 2: experience high levels higher i should say, levels of gender
13:22
Speaker 2: bias and stereotyping, and they're more likely to be sexually
13:25
Speaker 2: harassed and bullied. So students that are educated in an
13:28
Speaker 2: all girls environment do tend to be more confident. They're
13:32
Speaker 2: more likely to take on risks and challenges and be
13:34
Speaker 2: competitive and push themselves. They're not worried about the judgments
13:37
Speaker 2: and the inappropriate comments from the sidelines. They're more willing
13:40
Speaker 2: to take risks, basically, and I really like that. Now
13:43
Speaker 2: on boys a friend, And granted this is a sample
13:47
Speaker 2: size of one, so we're not talking about the huge
13:49
Speaker 2: data here. We're just talking about somebody who told me
13:51
Speaker 2: that going to a boys' school made him shy around women.
13:55
Speaker 2: But worse, he said that he felt that it fueled
13:58
Speaker 2: the sexist idea that women were inferior intellectually and in
14:02
Speaker 2: other ways. And he suggested that that lack of female
14:05
Speaker 2: friends and girlfriends could lead to objectification. Now, when we
14:09
Speaker 2: look at that infamous twenty twenty two Saint Kevin's two
14:12
Speaker 2: rac example egregious indicator, where those boys were on that
14:16
Speaker 2: suburban tram and they were filmed seeing that awful chant,
14:21
Speaker 2: it certainly reinforces the stereotype that that could be happening,
14:24
Speaker 2: and that kind of aligns with what you were getting
14:26
Speaker 2: at before. But then we look at even more evidence,
14:31
Speaker 2: the various testimonials that were in the Chanelle Coontos Teachers
14:35
Speaker 2: Consent petition. Boys from private schools were getting absolutely slammed
14:40
Speaker 2: by the girls and saying they just don't get it.
14:44
Speaker 2: So the argument basically is in a boy's school, not
14:46
Speaker 2: so much in a girl's school, but in a boy's school.
14:48
Speaker 2: It could be argued that an absence of relationships leads
14:51
Speaker 2: to emotional immaturity and insecurity when those boys eventually have partners,
14:56
Speaker 2: But the evidence doesn't support this at an aggregate level,
14:58
Speaker 2: only at an individual level with one on one case
15:01
Speaker 2: study sort of thing. So I found some long channel
15:03
Speaker 2: research from England showed no statistical difference between same sex
15:07
Speaker 2: and co ed schools for relationship outcomes like marriage and
15:11
Speaker 2: age of childbearing and relationship quality. Men from all boys
15:17
Speaker 2: schools were just slightly more likely to be divorced by
15:19
Speaker 2: the age of forty two, but there was no statistical
15:21
Speaker 2: difference in terms of the amount of household labor that
15:24
Speaker 2: was being done. But that stereotype persists that those boys
15:27
Speaker 2: have a prime minister leadership mentality, like they believe that
15:30
Speaker 2: being in charge is their ride. Here's something really telling though,
15:35
Speaker 2: when I was looking at the trends in Australia on
15:38
Speaker 2: co ed and single sex schools, there are more and
15:41
Speaker 2: more single sex schools that have chosen to move to
15:45
Speaker 2: co ed in recent years. So it's happening right now
15:49
Speaker 2: with a very very prominent school in Sydney. A couple
15:51
Speaker 2: of years ago, another very prominent school in Sydney did it.
15:54
Speaker 2: But when you look at who's opening their gates to
15:56
Speaker 2: the other gender, it's really revealing. The overwhelming majority have
16:00
Speaker 2: been boys' schools that are offering places to girls. And
16:06
Speaker 2: I might just say, very sensitively anecdotally, I've heard horror
16:11
Speaker 2: stories as girls have attempted to transition into that previously
16:16
Speaker 2: all male environment.
16:17
Speaker 1: I imagine, but a girls school.
16:20
Speaker 2: Is choosing to bring in boys just doesn't happen. So
16:24
Speaker 2: we're out of time. What would I do for my kid?
16:28
Speaker 2: How do we make this choice for our child? If
16:30
Speaker 2: we're looking at schools and trying to choose between co
16:32
Speaker 2: ed and single sex. The first thing that I would
16:37
Speaker 2: say is, with all the work that I do in
16:38
Speaker 2: all the schools that I work in, I am genuinely, authentically,
16:44
Speaker 2: consistently amazed at the equality of the staff and the
16:47
Speaker 2: outstanding outcomes that single sex schools achieved for their students.
16:51
Speaker 2: They are exceptional and exemplary in almost every case. I'm
16:56
Speaker 2: always stunned by it and the ability of that the
16:59
Speaker 2: te just have to approach a single gender really well
17:04
Speaker 2: I really think that it's brilliant and students seem to
17:06
Speaker 2: work really well without the opposite gender being present, which
17:10
Speaker 2: makes it sound like I'm going to say I'm all
17:12
Speaker 2: for single sex schools.
17:13
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting, because yes, I would think that that's
17:16
Speaker 1: what you're going to say, But for us, it's actually
17:18
Speaker 1: never been a consideration because I actually don't think that
17:22
Speaker 1: it is the most important factor in choosing a school.
17:26
Speaker 2: I don't either, and that's why we're making the decisions
17:29
Speaker 2: that we are making. What matters to me and to you,
17:34
Speaker 2: because we've had these conversations is not the gender.
17:37
Speaker 1: Mix, but it's the culture of the school.
17:40
Speaker 2: Culture of the school, it's what they do there, It's
17:42
Speaker 2: how they teach children, it's what their philosophy is. It's
17:45
Speaker 2: whether the students are happy to be there, whether the
17:47
Speaker 2: kids feel a sense of belonging and acceptance and connection,
17:50
Speaker 2: and whether they're engaged and progressing, and what the staff
17:54
Speaker 2: do when a student's struggling.
17:57
Speaker 1: You're saying this, and literally my eyes are tearing up
18:00
Speaker 1: because I remember our kids moving to a school for
18:03
Speaker 1: the first on day one, and one of our children
18:06
Speaker 1: who had literally in the first three years of her
18:09
Speaker 1: life been invited to two birthday parties, arriving that day
18:15
Speaker 1: three is her school life, Yes, and having pretty much
18:19
Speaker 1: the entire cohort that year's cohort waiting at the top
18:24
Speaker 1: of the stairs for her to walk through the gate.
18:27
Speaker 1: The culture of that school was so inclusive and our
18:30
Speaker 1: girls experience just complete and utter welcome love and acceptance.
18:37
Speaker 1: Thank you from day one.
18:38
Speaker 2: Thank you see this in Woollongong. So here's here's my
18:41
Speaker 2: take on it. If a school checks all the boxes,
18:44
Speaker 2: whether it's co ed or single sex should matter at all.
18:47
Speaker 2: And if the school doesn't check all the boxes, co
18:50
Speaker 2: ed or single sex doesn't matter at all. We hope
18:53
Speaker 2: this has been a helpful podcast for those of you
18:55
Speaker 2: who are struggling with the choice. Maybe it's less of
18:57
Speaker 2: a challenge now. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by
19:00
Speaker 2: Justin rule On from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our
19:02
Speaker 2: executive producer. If you're looking for more information about how
19:05
Speaker 2: you can make your family happier or go on a
19:07
Speaker 2: quest to help your family flourish, please check out our
19:09
Speaker 2: Happy Families membership. It's called the Quest and you can
19:13
Speaker 2: find all the info at Happy families dot com dot au.
19:16
Speaker 2: Tomorrow on the podcast, we're going to find out which
19:20
Speaker 2: group of people top lists of child sex abuses. It's
19:25
Speaker 2: one not to miss. The Happy Family's podcast is back tomorrow.
19:28
Speaker 2: We'll talk to you there