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What skills do project professionals need in 2025? · Project Podcast

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  Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for
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  the project profession. My name is Emma Devita, and I'm
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  the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host.
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  In this podcast, we're giving you the cheats guide to the 8th
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  edition of APM's Body of Knowledge, courtesy of its
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  Managing editor, Mike Bourne, Professor of Business
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  Performance at Cranfield University, where he leads the
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  project Leadership programme for senior civil servants.
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  He's also director for the Centre for Business Performance
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  there. Mike tells me a lot has changed
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  in the past five years since the previous edition of the APM Body
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  of Knowledge was published, and we focus our conversation on
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  what makes for a great project professional in 2025.
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  How to get your head around systems thinking, how to
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  approach AI and what sustainability really means for
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  projects. If there's one takeaway from our
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  discussion, it's about learning to have the bigger picture on
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  your projects and programmes. Listen on for Mike's invaluable
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  advice. Welcome Mike.
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  Thanks so much for finding the time to speak to us.
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  Really looking forward to forward to our conversation.
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  So what we would like to share with listeners is, is almost
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  like a cheats guide to the 8th edition of the Body of
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  Knowledge. It's been five years since the
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  previous edition. So I know from the feature in
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  the Spring 2025 issue of Project that there were certain areas
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  that were of particular interest for this edition, massive topics
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  like AI, systems thinking, project leadership.
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  So for someone who doesn't have the time to read the 8th edition
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  in full right now, what would you say are the main new points
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  that they should really be paying attention to?
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  I wouldn't read the 8th edition from cover to cover unless
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  you're reviving Exam or something like that.
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  It's really a reference guide. It's something to be dug into
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  when you've got a particular issue or problem or you need to
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  think about something in a bit of depth.
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  So what's new about this? We're really living in a vaca
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  world. It's volatile, it's uncertain,
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  it's complex and it's ambiguous and that makes project life more
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  difficult than it ever used to be.
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  Projects typically in the past used to be quite linear.
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  You decide what to do, you decide how to do it, you do it
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  and wrap it all up. But currently, and especially
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  with complex projects, it's becoming much more non linear.
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  We've got turbulence in the world, we've got people
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  interfering with the project, we've got advancing
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  technologies. And so the project professionals
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  got to live in that space and that's what it's about.
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  So as you said, yes, the new version does focus in on
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  leadership in particular. It's got sections on systems
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  thinking, it's got sections on sustainability, which are really
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  important too. And we have a whole chapter on
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  AI that we added right at the end of this to keep everybody
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  interested and really to reflect the growing importance of AI as
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  we go forwards. Thanks, Mike.
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  That's brilliant. Are there a couple of topics
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  that perhaps we could just dive into a bit now that you think
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  are really the ones that project professionals need advice on or
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  need to be thinking about? I mean, I'm particularly
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  interested in project leadership because to deal with such a
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  vodka environment, it's about the judgement that project
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  leaders have the ability to make decisions and everything else
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  kind of feeds into that. You know, sustainability, AI
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  systems thinking, crikey, that's a lot for a project leader to
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  get their heads around. Tell me, tell me what?
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  Yeah, tell me what what your views are on this.
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  Yes, project leadership, because it's volatile, is extremely
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  important. It's much less now about
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  process. Process is really important to
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  run efficient projects and you've got to know where you are
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  on what you're doing, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
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  But the role of the project leader is to focus on the
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  outcomes and benefits the project is there to deliver and
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  to also understand the stakeholder environment.
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  And those two things come together.
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  Stakeholders do move. Unfortunately, they have an
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  initial understanding of what they want at the beginning.
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  But invariably projects take a little time to deliver and so
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  stakeholders evolve as the project evolves.
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  And it's really important for the person leading the project
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  to understand this and hold it all together.
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  And then you've got the situation of if it's about
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  change, if it's about emergence, it's about, it's really is, as
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  you said, about judgement. It's about understanding what
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  isn't isn't working. It's about understanding when
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  you need to revisit the the schedule or even when to reach
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  visit the whole purpose of the project because something's
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  happened that's blown it out of the water.
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  And leadership too, is about leading the team.
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  You've got to have a vision. And for me, the vision is the
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  kind of the North star, what you're trying to deliver, the
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  real outcome, the real benefits. And that's the thing that guides
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  the project, not the delivery of the project itself.
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  And keeping the team focused on the ultimate outcome is is
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  critical. And doing that, the leader also
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  has the chance to develop those working on the project involved
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  in the project so that they learn from their experience and
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  their time on the project, and therefore can be better project
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  professionals, better project managers or better project
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  leaders into the future. I mean, this all sounds
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  wonderful, but I imagine it's kind of easier said than done.
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  Any advice to project leaders about how you reach this kind of
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  Holy Grail of what, what what, what successful leaders?
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  What do they do right? For me, a project leader isn't
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  the project manager. And you've got to remember that
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  all those project management roles have still got to be done,
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  but the project leader's job is to lead the project and to
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  delegate the project management role.
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  So the real takeaway for project leader is to create the space to
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  lead and not get bogged down into the detail of the project
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  delivery. And that's difficult because
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  you've still got to have a feeling for the project.
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  You've got to have a gut feel about how it's going, what's
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  going right and what's not. But that space to interact with
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  stakeholders, to interact with people in the project, to think
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  about the project and just reflect on what's going on is
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  critical. And delegating stuff to make
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  that space is how you do it. The art of delegation, which can
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  be hard, can't it? For people to let go and know
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  that the skills that got you so far aren't the skills that you
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  need to take you further. Yeah, the worst project leader,
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  he's probably the best project manager because they, they're,
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  they're still reassuring the the skills that they had before.
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  You do have to let go. And, and that's why I talked
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  about developing people during the project, because you've got
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  to bring them up to, to be able to fulfil some of the roles that
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  you're letting go with. And you've got to trust them.
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  You've got to understand that they're closer to what is going
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  on on the ground, and therefore they're making decisions based
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  on their local knowledge. As a leader, your job is to give
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  them the context in which to make those decisions.
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  But you've got to let them make those decisions and sometimes
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  makes mistakes as well. But invariably, those mistakes
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  are no worse than the mistakes you'd make from a top of an
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  ivory tower, looking down and pretending you know what's going
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  on. OK.
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  Thanks. Mike.
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  Were there any other topics? I know we briefly mentioned
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  systems thinking, sustainability and AI, but I mean they're
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  they're huge. Was there any any of those that
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  you'd like to discuss a bit further?
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  Let me just talk briefly about systems thinking because it's
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  about whole systems thinking and, and it kind of goes with
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  the leadership too. It's about understanding if we
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  do this project in this way, what are the consequences
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  outside the project? What are the, you know, we've
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  got things we're trying to deliver, but what are the
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  unintended things that are going to happen if we deliver it this
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  way? And so it's really important to
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  think about the project and the project delivery in the wider
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  system so that you can see what is going on and what impacts
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  you're having around the whole of the system, not just just in
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  the project. To ask an obvious question, but
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  why do you need to do that? Why is it beneficial to think
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  about the bigger picture? So does that directly link to
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  benefits and outcomes of the project or programme?
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  It directly links to benefits and outcomes actually, because
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  at the end of the day you can deliver a project that doesn't
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  deliver the benefits and outcomes.
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  So if you're delivering a project, part of the role of the
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  leader is to understand how the project outputs deliver the
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  outcomes and the benefits to the wider organisation or the
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  clients requires and that's what it's about.
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  So having a whole systems view, understanding where the
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  stakeholders are coming from, whether they're for you or
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  against you, whether they're trying to help you, whether
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  they're trying to hinder you in that project delivery.
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  That's that's really important. And then just understanding how
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  the world moves too. And and also, you know some of
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  the consequences that that happened as your projects get to
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  delivery and get passed over into operations.
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  My next question was what are the skills or knowledge that you
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  need as a project professional to to really thrive in 2025 S?
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  Any advice on that, including getting getting your head around
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  this this idea of much bigger picture thinking?
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  So what do project professionals need to thrive in 2025?
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  That's a good question. Yeah.
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  I think you've got to understand the bigger picture.
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  I think that's really important. And systems thinking will help
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  you do that. But there are two other things I
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  think that are really there. 1 is about people.
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  You've got to understand people. People are really important.
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  Those relationships with stakeholders, those
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  relationships with other projects, professionals within
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  your team and without it. And also your relationships with
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  the people you're you're delivering the project to so
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  that they take it on board, implements and take the
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  benefits. So there's a great people side
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  of it. And then the other interesting
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  thing is this business of AI, which is artificial
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  intelligence, the use of data that's coming into projects in a
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  big way. And, and that too is really
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  important. So we're starting to see some
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  kind of two quite conflicting views of the world coming
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  through projects. It's about people, but it's
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  about the technical side of of using AI and data as well.
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  And, and I think if a project professional can master both of
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  those, they're in a really good place.
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  Have you got any advice around the use of AI or experimenting
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  with AI or how to approach it? Because there's a fear that
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  there's a slight kind of panic around it and that you just need
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  to be doing something. You'll be seen to be doing
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  something. But what's the smart way to be
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  thinking about this and and and and experimenting with it?
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  So AI is that, you know, is a, is a bit of a panacea at present
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  or people think of it as that and it is and it isn't.
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  I think what we're going to get is some of the technical things
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  that happen in projects, You know, scheduling AI over time is
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  going to help us do better schedules and more complete
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  schedules and things like that. Reporting AI over time is going
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  to start to pull the data together and recognise patterns
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  and start to report better and better.
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  And as it goes on, it's then going to start to prescribe
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  things that we should do. But from my perspective, the
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  decision really needs to stay with the, with the, the human
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  being, you know, is this prescription right?
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  Is this what we really should be doing?
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  Has AI come to this conclusion based on, on data that we're
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  happy with, or are we being taken down a different route?
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  So the data sources for AI are really important.
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  And as you go on, it's also about you, you know, artificial
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  intelligence. It's, it's starting to learn and
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  then you start to lose the transparency of where it's,
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  it's, it's coming from. And so you've always got to keep
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  an eye over what it's prescribing, what it's thinking
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  about, what's what's coming out and are you comfortable with
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  that? What's the governance there?
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  And that's quite tricky. When you when you see it in
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  practise within other organisations or companies, are
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  there any behaviours or processes or practises that they
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  that they do that means that they get the best from AI that
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  they that, that they've really taken the right approach?
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  So one really good example I saw at the back end of last year was
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  when one of the big banks and they had multiple AI projects
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  going on. And they started off with the
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  idea that they were going to experiment with AI because it
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  was going to be something that's going to be there in the future.
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  And they weren't going to justify each projects.
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  They were going to have a go. They were going to see what
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  happened and see what worked, but also see what didn't work.
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  So what they were doing basically was failing fast to
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  use a, you know, project expression.
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  They were kicking off projects. If they were looked to be
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  successful, they'd carry on. If they didn't, they stopped.
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  They learnt and they moved on again.
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  And it was this, this continuous re updating the portfolio that
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  kept it going. They also didn't try to optimise
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  everything right at the beginning.
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  They were really learning and trying to feel their way with AI
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  and trying to encourage people to use it and then reflect on on
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  the use. And I thought that was good
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  because it engaged people in thinking about AI and using AI,
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  but also kept people in control of it as it went along.
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  OK, thank you. I I immediately am thinking
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  about the culture of a project team to have that, I guess that
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  word everyone uses, that kind of psychological safety or that
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  ability to fail, be allowed to fail, and to have that trust and
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  transparency when it comes to project managing and managing
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  teams. Have you got any advice around
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  the most successful types of culture and how you in fact
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  create that? Project Culture a really big
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  topic. Isn't it?
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  I thought I'd ask you a trick. Well, this, this podcast for
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  the. Well, fair enough.
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  Fair enough if they have two or three podcasts there, but
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  project culture, what's you've got within a project, it's a
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  temporary organisation. It's almost the definition of
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  what a project is. So it's a great opportunity for
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  the project leader to actually decide the culture that they
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  want and then do their utmost to build it.
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  And for me, the psychological safety around being able to
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  voice concerns, being able to challenge is absolutely critical
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  to running successful projects. It's no good running a project
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  and then finding that you're failing because somebody hasn't
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  chipped in and said this doesn't work and it's not going to work
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  and it's never going to work. And as a leader, you can't know
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  everything in your project. So you're reliant on your team
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  to keep you honest, to tell you what they're thinking.
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  And if you don't let them do that, you're, you're in real
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  trouble. So for me, that openness, that
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  willingness to admit that something's not working is, is
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  critical. So you've got to have that
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  psychological safety, but the leader has to have the
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  resilience to be able to cope with being challenged because
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  that's that's the critical bit. As a leader, you can't get
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  everything right, so why expect everybody working for you to get
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  everything right too? And if you've got that kind of
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  attitude, that builds the kind of culture that I think you need
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  to run a successful project. Some excellent words there,
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  Mike. Thank you.
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  There is one thing that I particularly want to talk about
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  as well is around sustainability back in the news again with kind
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  of global developments on this side shifting thinking on it,
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  where are we at? Could we be doing more and and
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  what really is the role of the project manager, project
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  professional when it comes to looking after the sustainability
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  side of things of a project? Yeah, well, there's one way of
• 18:04
  looking at the, the, the project professional delivers the
• 18:09
  future. And so everything they're doing
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  is delivering what's is going to come next.
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  So they've got a mammoth role in, in, in delivering
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  sustainability. They should be challenging to
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  start off with whether what they're going to deliver is
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  going to be needed in the future.
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  Because if, if, if they haven't got a sustainable solution, then
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  the project's going to deliver a white elephant.
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  This is no real, real future. So that's the first thing.
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  But secondly, during the project, every stage of the
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  project, they've got a chance to think about, you know, if we put
• 18:45
  a sustainability hat on, you know, can we reduce the carbon
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  impact? Can we make sure that we're
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  using resources effectively and efficiently?
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  Can we manage the supply chain in a way so that they do develop
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  and deliver what we're really looking for?
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  So project management probably has got, you know, a big
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  percentage of, of, of sustainability for the future.
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  Thank you, Mike. And talking of the future might
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  be another five years. I don't know.
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  You probably don't want to even think about the 9th edition of
• 19:23
  the body of knowledge. But what it's a bit another big
• 19:28
  question, but I'm asking you all the big questions in this
• 19:30
  podcast. But what, what's the future
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  direction of travel for project professionals?
• 19:35
  What, what do you think might be coming up ahead over the next
• 19:39
  five years? And, and how can listeners
• 19:43
  prepare for that? What should they be thinking
• 19:45
  about right now? I think we've talked about, you
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  know, volatile environment that's going to be more.
• 19:57
  So I don't think the future is very certain.
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  You know, there's some global things going on.
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  That are affecting all of us and the delivery of projects.
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  Projects are getting much more international with developments
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  all over the world. But it's against a a background
• 20:20
  of global uncertainty I think. I think the project
• 20:25
  professionals got a growing use of, of data and AI within the
• 20:32
  projects. So they've got to manage their
• 20:35
  skills to stay relevant. I think that's what it's really
• 20:38
  about. And so for the project
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  professional, it's, it's about keeping across the developments
• 20:45
  that are happening, being comfortable with using the
• 20:49
  tools. And I think it's the AI is not
• 20:52
  going to replace the the project manager or the project leader,
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  but it is going to make their jobs, their roles very
• 21:00
  different. And I think a project profession
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  in the future is going to have to be much more comfortable
• 21:06
  dealing with that and then dealing with their team and
• 21:09
  helping their team to use some of these news tools and
• 21:12
  techniques and deal with the uncertainty and everything else
• 21:18
  that the world's going to throw at us.
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  So tall order, isn't it? I mean the words everyone uses
• 21:23
  is mindset. If you could sum up the best
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  mindset to be able to be successful in the future as a
• 21:32
  project professional, but how might you describe that?
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  They they, they need a bit of a global view.
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  They do need a global view and just be aware of everything is
• 21:43
  going on. I think they need to have a
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  mindset that the project is a small part of a much bigger
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  system and and what they're delivering is going to impact
• 21:55
  that system. But the bigger system will
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  continue and the projects can be better or worser to hurt
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  actually influencing the direction of that system by the
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  way it's delivered and by the way it's run.
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  So I think that's that's part of a mindset.
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  Project professionals or project leaders have really got to be
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  more big picture and project professionals have got to
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  understand some of the intricacies of it, but not get
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  totally swamped with the, the detail.
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  I think that's, that's kind of a mindset you need to have and
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  judgement, you know, judgement is critical.
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  It's it's gut feel. Is that something that is just
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  within you, or something that can be worked on and cultivated?
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  I think judgement is partly within you, but you can greatly
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  improve your use of judgement and part of it is being honest
• 23:09
  with yourself. If you've made a decision and
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  you've got it wrong, first of all, you've got to recognise
• 23:15
  you've got it wrong. And then secondly, think about
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  what happened and why you might have been blindsided or whatever
• 23:23
  and, and did get it wrong and what could you do differently.
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  So for me, judgement is about making decisions, recognising
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  whether they're good decisions or not, but also learning from
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  reflecting on those decisions and, and then creating better
• 23:40
  experience for yourself. So I, you know, I interviewed
• 23:44
  project leaders a while back and I found a very young female
• 23:50
  project leader who got an immense amount of experience at
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  the age of 26. And she'd done it because she
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  thought about what she'd done and what had worked and what had
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  happened and what she'd learnt from it.
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  And that reflection piece I think is is the best way for a
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  project leader to to learn and develop their judgement and all
• 24:07
  their other skills. Really interesting.
• 24:10
  Thank you. I should really be wrapping
• 24:13
  things up. So my final question would be
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  what would be the key takeaways of, well, things to think about
• 24:23
  that you've kind of come across in your work with the 8th
• 24:27
  edition? What?
• 24:29
  What are the things that listeners should perhaps start
• 24:34
  thinking about? I think we think of the body of
• 24:38
  knowledge as a Bible in some sense.
• 24:43
  It's got all the terms, the the the techniques and everything.
• 24:49
  And I think it's useful for people to understand that
• 24:51
  they're there, but also understand where they are and
• 24:55
  aren't appropriate in their use. And then be open to
• 24:59
  understanding and learning all the time.
• 25:02
  If you become a chartered project professional and pass
• 25:05
  the exam, that's the beginning of your career, not the end of
• 25:09
  it. You need to keep learning, you
• 25:11
  need to keep developing your skills.
• 25:13
  And when the 9th edition comes along, it won't be a surprise if
• 25:17
  there's something new in that as well that you need to keep up to
• 25:20
  date with. But if you've kept up to date,
• 25:22
  you probably know about it already, and it'll just be a
• 25:24
  reminder of a set of terms and conditions that you you you
• 25:28
  should keep at the back of your head.
• 25:31
  Thanks, Mike. That's, that's absolutely
• 25:33
  brilliant. So much to think about in the
• 25:39
  stuff that we've been covering. I guess you're kind of glad to
• 25:44
  to see this published now. Yeah, I'm really pleased to see
• 25:49
  it published. You know, we've had some great
• 25:51
  writers in here. We've had some interesting
• 25:54
  arguments. It won't please everybody, but
• 25:57
  we've had to, you know, make a decision about what we're
• 26:00
  putting in and what we're leaving out and the way we're
• 26:02
  going. So it's there, it's useful.
• 26:07
  There's a system's terms that all models are long wrong, but
• 26:11
  some models are useful, and I think this is a useful
• 26:15
  publication. Like brilliant way, perfect way
• 26:18
  to end a podcast. So it just leaves me to say
• 26:20
  thanks very much for your time and to recommend listeners to go
• 26:26
  and to get a copy of the 8th edition of The Body of Knowledge
• 26:30
  as soon as possible. But thanks again, Mike, for your
• 26:32
  time. Thank you.