Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / Matt Abrahams on Thinking Faster, Talking Smarter (#045)

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Matt Abrahams on Thinking Faster, Talking Smarter (#045) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Teaching people how to manage anxiety, be agile and adept, be present, structuring and focused in your communication, those are hard skills.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: And to just throw somebody into the deep end and say, go do it, is discouraging at best and detrimental at worst.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I believe having a gradual process that walks people through with very specific steps fills a much needed vacancy.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what I think this book does is it provides people with an instruction manual, if you will.
• 0:38
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• 3:11
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• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, uh thanks, Matt.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: I can see that uh there is an exciting book that uh you know you're going to be uh publishing and release releasing uh very, very soon.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Think Faster, Talk Smarter.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: So can you tell me a little bit about what this book is all about?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sure thing, and thank you.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm very excited for the release of the book, Think Faster, Talk Smarter.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about helping people learn to better communicate in the moment.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: If you think about it, most of our communication is not planned.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the presentations, the pitches, the meetings with agendas.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, it happens in the moment.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: People ask us questions, we have to give feedback, we make small talk, sometimes we have to fix our mistakes.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: All of that is happening in the moment.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: And there isn't a lot of material to help people feel more comfortable and confident.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what the book is all about helping people to do better when they're put on the spot and have to communicate.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: So why is it difficult?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh which is the core theme of the book, I presume, on spontaneous communication, right?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Which is really what I think you're talking about.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so what makes it difficult for people to have spontaneous communication?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: There are several things that get in the way.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of them have to do with our mindset and how we approach it.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, first off, there are many people who just say, that's not who I am.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: I am not somebody who can communicate well in the moment.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we get in our own way by saying it's just not me.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're either born with it or you're not.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm here to say that that is not true.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: You can absolutely learn to be a commun, a good spontaneous communicator.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing that gets in the way is anxiety, our fear of speaking in front of others, our fear of not doing it right, our fear of making mistakes.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: All of that can get in the way.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Additionally, it has to do with the ways in which we judge our communication.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you ask people, give me an example of a good communicator.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Most people will identify people who are essentially professional speakers.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: They'll refer to a TED, somebody spoke at TED, they'll talk about uh leaders of organizations, uh, political leaders.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: These are all people who are trained, who spend extensive hours practicing.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we hold that up as our comparison, it's really hard to live up to that.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that can also discourage people and make them nervous.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: The reality is those people have spent a lot of time training, and in many cases, their speeches are edited or written for them by other people.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: So comparing ourselves to that standard when we're speaking in the moment only makes people more intimidated.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: So there's several factors that get in the way.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm here to tell you that we can put all of those aside, we can manage our anxiety, we can find appropriate role models, and we can realize that we can learn these skills.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you, in fact, uh in this book talk about a six-step method, right?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, can you walk me through what really are the six steps and how do we really plan this whole thing that you're talking about?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: So let me let me share with you the six steps in just a moment.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: But let me say that this book is full of counterintuitive uh ideas.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the first I've already shared with you is that we can all learn to be better speakers in the moment.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: The second is that you have to prepare to be spontaneous.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that sounds strange.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, what do you mean?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that antithetical to being spontaneous?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: But if you think about it, if you ever played a sport or a musical instrument, how did you learn to get to a point where you could just do it effortlessly through a lot of practice and preparation?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So the same is true with communication.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: So the methodology has six steps.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: The book, the first part of the book is dedicated to those six steps.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: The second part of the book is really taking specific situations and giving guidance and advice in those situations.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: So the first four of the six steps relate to mindset.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then the second two steps have to do with messaging.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to mindset, first we have to address anxiety.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mentioned how that's a big deal.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Second, we have to get out of our own way and stop striving for perfection.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Rather, we should look to connect.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's about connection, not perfection.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Step three is to reframe these circumstances, not as threats and challenges, but see them as opportunities and collaboration potential.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then step four of the mindset piece has to do with listening.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's really strange to think about, but listening is essential in any communication, especially spontaneous speaking.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, imagine you and I come out of a meeting and you ask me, you say, you know, how do you think that went?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: I immediately hear feedback.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so what do I do?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: I start giving you all the things that could have been better or the things that we need to do differently next time.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: But if I really would have listened, I might have heard that you were really asking not for feedback, but for support.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: If I would have noticed you were looking down, you were speaking more softly, slower than usual, I would have understood that what you wanted not in that moment was feedback, but was support.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And when I itemized all the things that were wrong, I was actually not helping you.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: I was probably doing you a disservice.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, mindset is about anxiety, getting out of our own way, reframing and listening.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last two steps are about messaging.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: First has to do with structure, how we design our messages, and the second has to do with how we focus our messages to be more concise.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the book walks you through the steps.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: It actually has activities you can try in the moment while reading, and then it gives you a little homework at the end of each chapter so you can really practice it.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, the only way you get better at communication is by doing communication.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I just want to pull back a bit, uh Matt, uh, because uh you are probably extremely prolific in this area of uh, you know, being a uh, you know, how do you how do you make people better communicators?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one of the things that I want you to uh you know talk about is is there a correlation between professional success and being a good communicator?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: What what have you seen in your experience?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely do.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if you look at uh surveys of hiring managers within companies, the number one skill that they are looking for is communication.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's not number one, it's number two.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: And further, if you look at surveys of relational satisfaction in friendships and romantic relationships, always at the top of the list or towards the top of the list is this notion of communication.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: I firmly believe that communication is critical and crucial to our personal and professional lives and our success.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: We all know of people who are brilliant, who are super smart, who are really good at their jobs.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yet because they lack the confidence or clarity in their communication, they don't achieve as much as others who might not know as much or perform as well, but who are better communicators.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it is critical that we all work on our communication skills, both written and spoken.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: So when you look back at this criticality of the skill that you talk about, right?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh when you start off uh right from your schooling, uh uh the real challenge that you have is there are methods of evaluating and assessing uh, you know, how good are you in math, how good you are how good are you in science.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but the way you speak and communicate is very qualitative, right?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore, it's your perception of whether I'm a good communicator or not, and therefore there are qualitative assessments.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, you don't probably have the right assessment and preparation methods, and suddenly here you are at work where you need to start communicating.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do I prepare myself over years to be ready to actually get to be the best at what you're talking about?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Communicating to people, commuting it, communicating to my uh you know, team, communicating to my stakeholders.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do I prepare myself?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it can't happen overnight, right?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Suddenly I'm in a job, I'm graduating, I'm in a in a uh in an environment, in a workplace.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you think assessments need to be looked at?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: And how do I prepare myself?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Slightly long-ish question question, but probably answering this.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, well, I'd like to break it down into the two parts.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: You are you are absolutely right that the study of communication needs to be assessed and looked at differently than some other areas of study.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it is not altogether different from writing in some of the areas of the humanities and social sciences, where there are is a is less exactness in the way that we assess.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: That said, there are some very tried and true foundational principles by which we can look at and give uh feedback for communication.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: So while it is different, absolutely, I don't think that precludes us from teaching it and striving to help people be better.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've taught this for decades, and and we have quite successfully found ways to help our students improve and get better.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, is it a test where there's a quantitative answer?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: No, but there are ways to assess.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of communication success comes from assessing yourself relative to yourself.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, how did you start, how did you end, the progress that you made.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: So there are absolutely ways to assess.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now, how do we get better at this?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the answer is the same way you get better at anything you endeavor to do: a sport, a musical instrument.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: It takes three things repetition, reflection, and feedback.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: The only ways.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: You have to practice, you have to give yourself opportunities to practice.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's what taking classes does for you.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: There are organizations like Toastmasters.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure if you're familiar with that, but Toastmasters is a very popular uh international organization that gives you an opportunity.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to practice.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: The second step is you have to reflect.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know that definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's how many of us communicate.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: We just, our goal is just to get it done.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not enough.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: You have to think about what worked and what didn't work.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how you begin to get better.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: So reflection is important.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then finally, you need to seek out others.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: You need to get feedback.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is what teachers, mentors are for, coaches are for.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that's what podcasts like yours, like mine, what books are for.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: There are lots of ways to get feedback.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to take that feedback and then use it to help improve ourselves.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: So if you are a soon-to-be graduating student, you should be seeking out opportunities to practice.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: You should be volunteering in class to answer questions, you should be interviewing for practice, you should be speaking up in social events and other activities that you do, and then reflecting and getting feedback from others.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you are somebody in a current role wishing to achieve a higher status, a bigger job, a bigger title, you should be practicing.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: You should find low-stakes situations where you can get the reps in.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it requires effort.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: It requires effort.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: But with that effort come great rewards and great knowledge that you are not only communicating and being successful, getting your points across, but you're also role modeling for others to help them get better.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: So you asked me a long question, I gave you a long answer, but it's a really important uh discussion topic.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the the kind of markets that we come from, say the emerging market like India, where technology is uh, you know, uh it's a huge uh, you know, it's uh plays a huge role in uh how we educate ourselves.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And uh as engineers, uh we end up being introverts, right?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: You pretty much uh don't communicate.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: We really talk about being an individual contributor, but at the workplace, at least I believe there is nothing of a concept called an individual contributor, right?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: You have to work with people, you have to communicate, you have to talk about your ideas, you've got to go and influence people.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, if I were an engineer and a tech professional, which is really what this side of the market is, definitely this book definitely is going to help.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the past books that you have written and the podcasts that you do regularly are going to help.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: But how do I overcome this?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because many projects fail not just because of the technology not being right, but it's about how you communicate, how you influence people.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, is that the right perspective?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you really go about uh you know preparing for this kind of a complex uh project that many of uh you know the audience that we have handled?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to I want to give you three responses here that address three different issues that you've brought up.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to start by this notion of introverts.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Introversion refers to how you relate to the world and how you process information.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Being introverted is not, it does not mean that you cannot be a good communicator.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, many introverts are excellent communicators because introverts actually take time to think before they speak.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: I am exceedingly extroverted.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the downsides of being extroverted is sometimes we speak before we think and we get ourselves into a lot of trouble.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we need we need introverts.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's an important role in any organization, it's important in any relationship.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: So this notion that introvert is bad when it comes to communication is not held true in research, and it certainly isn't uh part of uh effective organizational design and development.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: You need people who are thoughtful, you need people who uh take time to assess their environment, their context, their audience before they speak.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, many of the most successful leadership and managerial skills are often associated with the same types of skills that introverts uh display.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not I'm introverted, therefore I'm not a good communicator.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: It means you might communicate differently.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly in entrepreneurial organizations, there is often reward to the person who speaks first, speaks loudest, speaks longest, which are antithetical to introverts, but that doesn't mean that that's the only way to succeed.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the first thing.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Introversion is not bad.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: It can actually be incredibly helpful.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: The second part has to do with when you are in an organization, part of a team.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: You are absolutely right that communication is essential to success.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Many people see communication as a necessary evil.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like in the only way we're going to get this product to market is we got to communicate with people.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: That sucks, and we got to take that extra time.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: But in fact, as you rightly pointed out, communication is critical to all success.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I teach a class on strategic communication, and in that class, we we look at how important, how strategic communication is to effective organizations.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to disabuse ourselves of communication being an add-on, a secondary thought, a necessary evil.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: What that means is it is incumbent on everyone, individual contributors, managers, organizations, to allow time for communication, to comment on the importance of communication, to assess the effectiveness of communication, and to equip people with the skills.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that that might be taking classes, reading books, having templates, having tools in place to make it work to really be successful.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now, some people say that's a lot of extra work, but I would argue for teams that don't have effective communication, you spend a lot of extra time cleaning up the mess or being delayed to market.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it might be that you're spending more time up front, but I would argue that that time is well spent because you save time on the back end.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we actually have to build in the people, the processes, the infrastructure to communicate effectively.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you brought up three different areas, and I agree it's important.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think introversion can be valued, and I think organizations need to build in communication to be successful.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Specifically, uh coming to the topic and the concept that you're uh you know that you're sharing in the book, uh, you're talking about spontaneity, right?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: And when I look at spontaneity, one thing that I see is people must have what I call as uh you know situational communication awareness, right?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Which is uh which is very, very important because you know, I'm sitting in a situation, uh, I must be mindful and self-aware uh of what I'm going to be saying, how is it going to be taken?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: What's the mindset of the person who is receiving the communication?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, you might have multiple styles, right?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Some people say, Hey, I have a personal style, I have an intuitive style, I have an analytical style.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, multiple styles are there.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: But when it comes to spontaneity, your ability to assess which style you would deploy, and therefore, how do you really communicate?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Is that very important?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: And do you cover that as a part of the overall uh, you know, the core concept of how you see it?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: And would you agree with me?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: And what do you think?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, how do you how do people prepare for things like this?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: I 100% agree with you that situational awareness, the ability to read the room, to understand the context, to use pattern recognition to identify what is needed.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: All of those are the same way of saying the same thing.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Communication always happens within a context.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to be aware of that context.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be aware of the needs of the people within that context and what's relevant to them.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, in the book and in the teachings that I do, I spend a lot of time talking about how we have to think about our audience and the context.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Context in which we're speaking, and try to adjust and adapt our messages to be appropriate given those circumstances.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it is absolutely critically important.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Those are skills that you can learn and that you can apply, and you have to to be successful.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a message in one situation that works really well might be detrimental in another circumstance, either the tone or the structure of the messages or the wording that's used or the timing that it's delivered.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: So all of these factors play a role.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to be aware.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where, again, getting back to the notion of introverts, introverts tend to focus on the context a little bit more than extroverts do.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: So again, there's an advantage in some cases to that.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: So yes.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so the question becomes how do you do that?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, one, you have to be aware.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Two, you have to be able to think quickly on your feet and make some assessments.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And three, you have to reflect after the fact and say, was that the best way to do that?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: What would I change next time if those circumstances repeated themselves or perhaps were slightly varied?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: So lots of things that that fit under that umbrella for sure.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so when we really talk about this area, the other important thing that I see is you talk about a concept called secondhand anxiety, right?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: And uh right.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: So uh can you walk me through uh what's secondhand anxiety?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: And does that play a very important barrier or a bottleneck when you really want to do spontaneous communication?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: So let me take a step back and say most people are nervous in communication, period, but their anxiety goes up even more when they're spontaneous.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: So anxiety looms large in communication.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Secondhand anxiety is something I talk about with my tongue in my cheek.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm making a joke about secondhand smoke, right?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: So secondhand anxiety is where my nervousness as a communicator, my unease, makes you, as my audience member, feel nervous and anxious as well.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: I challenge you and everyone in your audience to think about a time you've seen a nervous speaker present.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: How do you feel?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: You typically feel very uncomfortable, very, you know, anxious on their behalf.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: The problem with this, while this is a great example of empathy, the problem is when I make you nervous because of my nervousness, you are no longer paying full attention to what I'm saying because you're having your own experience.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: So my anxiety gets in the way of you learning from me, paying attention to me, remembering what I'm saying.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: In essence, I'm distracting you.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I, as the communicator, need to work on reducing my anxiety, or at least the signs of my anxiety, so that you see me as more confident and therefore are able to pay attention to me without distraction.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, secondhand anxiety really points out that whenever you communicate, you are not just communicating your information, you are communicating your emotional state.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that emotional state can have a positive impact, but it could also have a negative impact.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: And we want to work to reduce the negative impact it can have.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh would you also have a framework, Matt, on uh you know how people would do uh one-to-one communication, uh one-to-group communication, and one-to-many communication, because people pretty much uh you know treat every communication as yes, I have to just you know give this message, right?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: But the way you do one-to-one, a one-to-group, which is a team that I manage, uh one-to-many, which I'm a leader and I'm you know talking in a uh town hall, the frameworks, the way you need to create your presence is very different.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, you need to have a balance between being prepared and being spontaneous, right?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, how do you really uh intervene these things?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, first we have to train ourselves, uh, like we've talked about before, just to be agile, to be present in the moment, to follow the mindset and messaging suggestions and my methodology.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's what's going to help you be agile and in the moment and adjust and adapt.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, are there different things I have to consider when I'm speaking individually, one-on-one, when I'm in a group or to a large, you know, one to many?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Similarly, we have to think about if we're in person or virtual, synchronous or asynchronous.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: There are all these different options.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it gets back to the context.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: When I am synchronous, one-on-one, it is more conversational.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: I need to engage you in a different way.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: My goal is to get you speaking often.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's truly conversational, perhaps even more than I'm speaking.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I ask questions, I paraphrase and give you feedback to elicit more information from you.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Take the opposite of that, an asynchronous one-to-many communication, that's very different.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: I have to engage you, but I have to engage you differently.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I might ask you to think about things, I might use more analogies, I might have you, I might tell you more stories as a way to engage you because I'm not live with you and it's just me speaking to many people.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you absolutely are right.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: You have to adjust in different ways.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: But the bottom line is this in all communication, you are trying to make your content relevant to your audience, you're trying to engage them so that they pay attention and remember, and ultimately you're trying to get them to act on your information in some way, even if that's just remembering what you're trying to say.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: So how you do that and the techniques you use vary based on the context in which you're speaking.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing that you uh, you know, you talk about because I'm an avid listener of your podcast and guests, uh the guests that you bring in are uh absolutely world-class and brilliant.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you talk about the fact that when you communicate, you uh you've got to make your presence felt, right?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because uh that's a very important thing.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just about uh, you know, many a times what I see with leaders is just give this message to people, right?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Message and communication are two different things.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Can you help me delineate the difference between giving a message versus giving a communication?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do these things move people?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: So uh a message is a necessary but not sufficient uh way of getting information across.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: You need to have a message.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: But communication, if you break down what or you look at the origin of the word communication, the origin of the word communication is to make common.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: In other words, you are taking your ideas, your thoughts, your beliefs, and making them understandable, common knowledge for others.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I have to not just think about what are the words and the point I'm trying to make, but how can I craft that message in a way to really land for you?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: So this means first and foremost, I have to think about you.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about me.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's not what I want to say, it's what you need to hear, which means I have to do reconnaissance, reflection, and research on my audience.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if it's spontaneous, I have to do that very quickly.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: I have to understand the context, what's the purpose of this meeting or presentation, and go from there.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: If it's planned, I have a little more time to do a little more work.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: But in knowing what's important to you, I can then craft my message so that I have a greater likelihood of success.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: I like to joke that there's an F-word in communication, and it's not that naughty F-word, it's fidelity, it's accuracy and clarity of transmission, right?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just me getting the word out, it's me making sure that you understand exactly what I'm saying.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where communication comes in versus just transmitting a message.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh when you when you thought about this book, uh, what do you think uh you know was being uh you know covered here in this book, which you probably thought was not there in the earlier books that you had written?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you think is the core ideas that you felt probably were not there?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'm sure because you are a prolific speaker and a consultant and you work with organizations, so what is something that you felt needed to be added to uh as a content for effective communication?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you think this book fits into that specific gap that's there today?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to speaking in the moment and speaking spontaneously, there aren't a lot of books.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's not a lot of any knowledge out there on how to do it.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the biggest gap is there just wasn't anything there or much there.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think what the book does is it codifies a methodology.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: I am very applied in the work that I do.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: And part of what helps me, and I I have seen help many other people, is to provide a logical step-by-step process that can help.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Teaching people how to manage anxiety, be agile and adept, be present, structuring and focused in your communication, those are hard skills.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And to just throw somebody into the deep end and say, go do it, is discouraging at best and detrimental at worst.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I believe having a gradual process that walks people through with very specific steps fills a much needed uh vacancy.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what I think this book does is it provides people with an instruction manual, if you will, uh, based on academic work, based on stories and personal experience that can help people feel more comfortable going through the process.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I think it does.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we'll let you and others who who read it tell me if I do it successfully.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it it codifies it in a way that that increases the likelihood that people will feel better about doing.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: And if there is one myth that you believe this book has to, you know, break through, uh what do you think is that one myth that you want this book to uh you know break through?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for asking.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: The the biggest myth that I'm fighting is that this is something that you can learn versus something that you are born with.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: People who are introverted, as you mentioned, people who have had uh tough or awful experiences communicating in this way, just resign themselves to the fact that, hey, that's not me.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have the gift of gab or the ability, which is 100% incorrect.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: You can learn these skills.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: I've done it myself, I've coached thousands of people.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I teach several hundred students a year these methodologies, and I see the changes in them.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the biggest myth I'm trying to bust.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks a lot, uh Matt.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: It was brilliant talking to you.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact that uh, you know, this is an area as a gap that you identified, and the way you outlined a step-by-step process, and nothing happens overnight, and you need to really prepare yourself and keep working on it is something that I'm taking away from this conversation, and it's not something that uh, you know, uh people uh have a problem of saying, hey, I'm not good at communicating.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: What you're saying is everybody can be good at communicating, it's about how you prepare yourself.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the key message I'm taking away, and I'm sure uh this book will be a huge uh toolkit for people looking to improve in this area and become better.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks a lot.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Lovely talking to you.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Great to chat with you.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: You do great work.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for the opportunity.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening to this episode.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: For selected links and detailed show notes, visit www.contramines.com slash blog.
• 34:11
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• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening and stay safe.