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From Dragon-ridden To Firebird Chronicles: The Wonderful Worlds Of TA White · Mythmakers

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  Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
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  creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding. I'm
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  an author but I also am the director of the Centre. And today I am, can't tell you how
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  delighted I am to have T.A. White with us, who is an author of many absolutely wonderful
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  fantasy series. I'm saying this as a genuine fan as well as somebody who admires her as
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  another author. So thank you so much Toby for coming to be with us today. No problem. I'm
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  happy to be here. So Toby, you sort of stand out to me as a writer because you have written
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  in many genres within fantasy. So perhaps for those who aren't familiar with what you do,
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  we should have a little gallop through your series, just give us a sense. So where did you
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  start as a writer? What was the first series that you produced? So the first published series
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  is different from the first series I started. The first book I wrote, I will probably never
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  make it into anybody else's hands except my friends and family who were around when I wrote it.
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  The first published book would have been a dragon ridden with the dragon ridden chronicles.
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  It's a very difficult genre to describe because I didn't really obey genre norms but it's kind of
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  like fantasy with sci-fi elements or sci-fi with fantasy elements depending on who you ask.
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  So that was where I started and I just went off of a dream and it was a very sci-fi-esque
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  dream. Like chapter one went to a different direction which was much more fantasy. So that's
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  where I started and then because I can't make things easy on myself I kind of transitioned to like
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  high fantasy with my pathfinders or the broken land series and then from there I went to urban
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  fantasy to sci-fi, like straight sci-fi. So it's I kind of just write what I want.
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  The urban fantasy series, is that the Eileen Travers series? Yes, Eileen Travers is the urban
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  fantasy and then the firebird chronicles is more of my sci-fi with a couple of fantastical elements
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  to it. Yeah, so I mean that's supposed an interesting question for anyone who's got their hands
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  on an author to ask them is is there a sort of particular thing that started you off as a fantasy
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  writer? I was noticing that you talked on your website about starting writing very young
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  with a partner who then threw her biscuits at you. It's just great. What happened there?
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  So I was like that would have been when we lived in North Carolina but I was like in second first
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  grade and I couldn't I had a little I struggled to learn to read which meant I struggled to learn
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  to write and so at that age like I really wanted to write a ghost story and I had to partner up
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  with somebody who was a little bit older like a year or two older than me because I couldn't
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  do it for myself and like we did it for a day and a half and then they were like I'm bored with
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  this. I don't want to do it and I got really mad and I maybe threw a cookie at her head. I was
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  pretty young. Okay, that way rap. And it was there a particular book once you did get into reading.
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  Was there a particular book that inspired you to follow your path? Yeah, it's kind of funny
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  because I started wanting to write before I could actually really like before I started liking
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  to read and then Nancy drew in third grade the second time around was the book that got me into
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  reading but the book that got me into fantasy was Tamera Puris the woman who walks like a man.
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  It's the third in the series but I was living in in Okinawa because my dad was stationed there
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  and they didn't have the first two books in the series at that library so I started with the
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  third and it just kind of it was the first time I realized that fantasy could be like this really
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  fun genre that's about real things but told in a different way and that you can have real life
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  problems but with magic and other things mixed in with it to just make it a little bit more
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  interesting. Is that the Lana series? The Lana Chronicles? Have you read the Kell ones?
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  I have. Caladria. She's my favorite the protector of the small. I actually think I like her a little bit
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  more than a Lana because the Lana had like magic to fall back on and she had the goddess to like she
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  was like kind of a chosen one but you don't find that out till like the second book I think
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  whereas Caladria or Cal she was she's just a normal person who went after their dream and had to
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  work very very hard to make that happen and I really like stories where you have to like it's not
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  just given to you and you're not just special you you have to actually work to be the person you
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  want and to achieve your dream so that's that's like my favorite of her series. Yeah and I absolutely
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  love that one of the books is all about how to manage a refugee camp for internally displaced people.
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  Right. Yeah that was one of my favorites too. It's right up my street as a former development aid worker
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  and also it's just such a breath of fresh air after all these big battles things. What happens to
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  the civilians you know very very poignant and their great book. So another book recommendation
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  for listeners is to go and explore the Timora Pierce back library. So what was your journey to
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  being an actual published author after the biscuit throwing episode? Well it was kind of like a long
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  circuitous journey like I in high school there was this we had where I went to high school you had
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  a senior thesis project that you had to do to graduate and it had to have written an element so I
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  decided to write a book and that's the book that nobody will ever see. So I wrote that book and
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  then I went to college for journalism at the Ohio University Script School Journalism because I
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  figured I could work on my craft while having a full-time job and then I graduated and nobody
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  was hiring. So my mom told me to join the military which I did and to do public affairs for them
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  which I did. So the first time after that was I was in Afghanistan and it's kind of a situation
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  where you're in a very small area and you can't go anywhere except for our missions which I did but
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  you're stuck in a one place and you don't have the distractions of being in like the United States to
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  take away from your creativity and there is a point where you don't want to read anymore books and
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  you don't want to watch anymore TV shows and it had always been my dream to be a writer so I
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  figured hey I'm here for a year why not write a book and that's what I did and that's where Dragon
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  Chronicles came and Pathfinder a little bit. I had the idea for Pathfinder while I was there and
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  actually that probably sparked a lot of the ideas in Pathfinder so that was kind of when I started
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  and it took me like a year and a half, two years to get that book like done and edited and to
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  a point where I felt comfortable releasing it to the public. That is absolutely fascinating. That
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  was a brilliant story in itself and it also explains the island traverse backstory.
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  Those three years were very instrumental in forming me as a person so a lot of my books
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  draws from that as like the creative incentive because you went you go through a lot in a very short
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  period of time and you kind of find out who you are and then when you have to write these other
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  things that draw on the military it's just a little bit easier. So yeah, Aileen is like a product
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  of me coming home and some of the anger and upset that I had and how disconnected I felt to being
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  home. Like some of the conversations she has with her mom are things that I've talked with about
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  other people coming home as a soldier and how people think you have PTSD and everybody's the
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  same. So yeah, that was a big part of that character and why I wrote her because it was kind of
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  cathartic. Yeah, and her experience in the military is brilliantly specific
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  being the sort of the camera person who goes along with the guys on patrol. And I did think,
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  oh, this is really well researched and now I know why, you know. Yeah, I didn't do her job. I was
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  more, but I knew the guys who did her job. Like I was public affairs. I did go on the mission,
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  but it wasn't just to take photos like I took photos, but it was also to get the story. And so
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  the combat cameras, I had a couple of friends who work combat camera. That was really fun to talk
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  to them and figure out how that job differed from mine. Yeah, I think what's really interesting
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  about that experience is, but most I would say that all of your heroines have a problem with
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  authority. And there's a particular thing with, is it, you call her alien, I mean, alien,
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  but I think it's supposed to be okay. Well, it's not a plot spoiler that she's a baby vampire,
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  a young vampire. So she has had this past where she already probably was in an authority
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  structure which she had thought she'd left finding herself plunged into this one where you have
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  to be 100 years before you're given a chance to go out on your own at all. So it makes sense now,
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  totally makes sense. It's funny. You say that because a lot of people who find out I was in the
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  military are like, I can't see you in the military. And the first couple times that happened,
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  I was like, laughed it off. And then finally, I was like, why do people keep saying this to me?
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  Is it because I'm a girl? And they're like, no, because you have massive issues with authority.
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  And anytime anybody tells you what to do, you push back. And they're like, we can't see you being
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  in a situation where you follow orders. And it's like, okay, well, there's different sides to me.
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  So and I kind of put that into the books too. Yeah, what I like about the way you do that. So it says,
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  sort of diving across all the heroines now is that you also point out cleverly how difficult it
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  is to be with that person who is the rebel aliens case. It's the the you know, she's a difficult
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  person to be a friend with, even though she's desperately loyal. Yeah. So it goes to the extreme,
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  but her friend Caroline, you know, she's quite blunt with her is so you don't make it into the
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  romantic rebel or the sort of Jane steam thing. It's very much her. Here's a square peg in around
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  whole, you know, bruising a few people as she goes through life. It's really I think that's why,
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  I like your book so much, actually, because often the fantasy aspect is a sort of wonderful
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  package around really interesting set of characters or express through them. So that she definitely
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  ticks that box. So do you is writing what you do all the time or are you also exploring other
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  forms of creativity or because I think a lot of people who are aspiring writers want to know
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  how do they make it work? Do you you obviously been in the military, but did you go straight from
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  the military into writing or was there a transition phase? No, yeah, there was a transition phase.
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  Like I do writing full time now. I'm very lucky in that I can support myself and my family with my
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  writing and just my writing, but that was like five years in the making. Like I published
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  dragon ridden I think in like 2013, 2014 and I didn't go full time until several, several years
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  later and I worked in marketing for a company, a credit bureau type company. And so I did that and
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  then like on the in the evenings, like I write for an hour and a half, two hours, like I try to get
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  a thousand to two thousand words, like a couple of times a week and then I on the weekends would
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  like write double whatever the week thing was. So I had to essentially it's like working two jobs,
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  but it was what I've always wanted to do. I do since I was very small. So I was happy to make
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  the sacrifice and I kind of needed a purpose in my life and I felt like this was what I was put
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  on the planet to do was to tell stories and entertain people and give them a break from all the
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  bad things that might be going on in their life. So yeah, here, here, absolutely, keep on writing,
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  please. So now on to the fantasy stuff, which is kind of our race on detour really.
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  So you just recapping again, you've written in many different fantasy and sci-fi subgenres,
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  starting with dragon ridden, the kind of sci-fi fantasy mashup, urban fantasy and so on.
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  I understand that urge to cross genres because that's what I do as a writer as well, but do you
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  are you so conscious of different rules in the different genres or does you just you just know
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  what you're doing when you're in there? Are you a sort of visitor who understands the culture of
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  the place you're in or do you actually set yourself specific rules when you start writing in a different
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  genre? So like I'm a fan of all the genres I work in like I read massively in those or I did
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  in those genres. So like with alien travelers, that's urban fantasy. Like I've read all the urban
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  fantasy genre like authors that are really big in this like Patricia Briggs, Alona, Drew's,
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  and many many others. So like I know the genre tropes that come with that, but the fun thing is like
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  when you can reach those fans while bringing something new to the to the table and I think that's
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  why people like what I do is because like I'm following the genres, but I'm doing it in a way
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  that doesn't necessarily always isn't as widespread as maybe other writers. Because I know with
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  my freeze a lot, I get the comment that it's basically urban fantasy in space and it makes sense
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  because like I read a lot of urban fantasy authors. So that aspect kind of has crept into my writing.
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  So I kind of just concentrate on like one, whatever the genre is, but when I feel the need to
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  break the rules, I write what I want to read massively. And so I try to follow the
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  rules and then like every once in a while, I'm like I don't feel like following these rules anymore.
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  I guess that's my even against authority coming out. So are you a planner or somebody who feels
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  their way through the plot? So when you sit down to write your next, let's say it's your next
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  dragon ridden book, do you already know what you're going to do in it or is it very much,
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  okay, I'm going to spend six months with tape now or if I go.
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  It's a little bit of both. Like I always start with a plan. I don't always sit to the plan and
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  that then come up with a new plan which during the course of which you're kind of feeling your way
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  in through the book. Like I know some things and then I have to figure out the rest. Like
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  I'm working on the fourth fire book for the series right now. So I know several scenes and I know
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  how it's going to end, but I don't always know how those scenes connect. And that's like kind of
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  the thing you figure out. And sometimes like you know what you want to happen, but you don't know
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  the arc of what happens. And then you have to like you write and write and write and then you get
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  to like a certain point where you hit critical mass and then you're like oh that's how that's
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  supposed to go. And then you have to go and redo everything. But I don't feel like I could get
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  to that critical mass moment where it's like this epiphany unless I did a lot of like feeling my
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  way through. So like my guys that I start with a plan and then things go bad and I have to figure
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  out a new plan. Yeah, I've had the experience in writing where I had a plan and then my characters
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  misbehave and do something else when I'm writing the scene mid-scene. They're running off in a
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  completely different direction. Is that an experience that's familiar? Oh yes, that's like pretty
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  much every book at this point. Like it used to be a lot easier when I first started. I was much
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  better at following the plan. And then like I think around rules of redemption is when my writing
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  kind of changed and I wrote the book I wanted to write rather than what the book wanted to write.
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  So you just have to be used to throwing things away and being okay when your characters are like
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  oh yeah that was a good idea but we're going to go do this now and this is much more interesting
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  because like I feel that it takes a little bit of effort to get to the really good stuff and
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  sometimes you have to put all the junk and then you kind of have to uncover the gems under the
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  junk. So that's that's kind of how I do. Like it's a little bit exploratory with a goal in mind.
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  I'd say that one thing that your books have in common across the all the genres and all the
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  series is and tell me if I'm wrong but usually led by the heroine who is usually
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  all usually loveable but difficult and there's often a very slow-burn romance. It's not
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  not a romance it's over in the first book it builds and builds. Do you tell us about your heroines?
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  Do you have some tips for writing characters that aren't like cookie cutouts that actually feel
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  individuals? So I don't know like because I kind of I give them a flaw like I find the thing
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  that most people would find like super annoying and then I try to make that thing what it's great
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  about them but it's also like a drawback like with Shea she's the heroine in the broken land
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  series Pathfinder. She's really really good at her job and like we all know this throughout the book
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  but she's also really really bad at communicating with people and you have to be able to communicate
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  with people to get them to do what you want so you can save their lives and not have them go kill
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  themselves on accident in this world I've created and that like was a big issue with her throughout
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  the series and should overcome that because you have to give them something internal to overcome
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  to really connect with the reader like in it I really enjoy people who are flawed but that flaw is
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  also a strength like Shea as bad as she is with communicating she's also super stubborn and she
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  will do the things that other people won't because of that both of those things so yeah she also
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  has a deep desire to teach other people which kind of conflicts with the thing that a
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  communicating is it's the kind of fingers burn situation isn't she she's tried and failed and so
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  she's keeping back you know I think that's another role there is stars right I think that's another
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  thing like I always give them a backstory that might be like they're inciting incident of why they
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  have this flaw like with Shea it's she led a mission into the broke like the the outlands or the
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  badlands that's what it is the badlands sorry um she led a mission into the badlands and a lot of
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  people died during that mission so she's kind of scarred on the inside so you you have to give them
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  like an emotional backstory for people to like relate and that backstory fuels the events of
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  the book with Kira from the Firebird series we see that she was a commander in the military fighting
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  against an alien invasion and almost her entire team dies and it makes her like kind of curl into
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  like a little ball and shut everybody out for years on end until the events of the series and you
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  see her start to come out of her shell um you have to have both those things to make the reader feel
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  like they're actually talking to a person or like reading about a person versus something that's
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  2d and flat yeah what you do as well as you hold back those back stories you know not the book
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  may start with you know the that as the the prologue um that you sometimes keep it back for a long
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  long time i wanted in the case of Tate who is purposely kept sort of an easy act basically um when
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  you started working her did you know what it was or were you also at the same state of not knowing
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  as your character so i i knew parts like i knew she wasn't from the era i was writing in and i
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  knew she'd been in the the cryos chamber for like centuries slash thousands of years so i knew
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  that there was like a disconnect i did not know all of the things that came out later i didn't know
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  the part she played or the fact and i knew that she had friends and she'd left behind that era
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  and that's why like the ending you see one of those friends in the dream um but like i knew those
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  but i didn't know all of it um so like i kind of made things up as i went along yeah and that's
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  the great thing about writing is it's kind of be a discovery process to what your brain is suggesting
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  subconsciously isn't it you know that's fun um you also i noticed that you use a sense of isolation
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  and loneliness as a great starting point for your heroines because usually again correct me if i
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  miss one there is a process where your isolated heroine is taken into a new form of
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  family is this again something that felt with a conscious choice or was it something that jumped
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  out right yeah um it's a little bit of both like i think the reason that's like a huge theme
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  throughout is because it's something i've suffered from in the past like there have been instances
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  where i felt isolated or cut off from the people around me and so i've been lucky enough to have
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  people to bring me back into the the mix and not let me stay out and i cold them so i think
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  i think that because that's something i really understand and i've just added it to the writing so like
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  um and they all most of the heroines like have been part of a group at some point and then something
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  has isolated them and then they come back and they learn that you can't really exist by yourself
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  and you have to like put yourself out there and take those chances um i didn't i didn't suffer
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  from anything like that but that's kind of like why they usually go in that path um yeah
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  yeah and thinking about the sort of romance aspect which i said is uh you know it's definitely not
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  the sort of um it's a book which you've waited a long time for the relationship to build first
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  is is there any tips you can give people about writing a slow burn romance
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  from your experience and how you get this so i don't know if i have a replace
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  so it's really weird
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  it's not romantic in the hearts and flowers way it's not it's not like a a notting hill kind of thing
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  or anything like that but there is definitely a attraction so for me like a really good story always
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  involves like relationships in some way and i i find i like to have them pair up by the under
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  the series but the book is primarily about like whoever the main character has whether it's Shaya
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  or Kira or Tay um though their journey is the focus of the story but i want those journeys to also
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  incorporate having maybe a romantic partner um so like that's that i think that's like the biggest
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  uh way i do it is like the story is for instance with um Kira it's about finding her friend that's been
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  kidnapped by aliens um and then during the course of that journey she meets great on and then
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  eventually they become like he's not gonna let her just go and be by herself and kill herself
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  in this mission she's undertaken so they kind of but hadn't and they kind of come together and
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  realize they're on the same side um so i think that's the biggest thing is like have to let them come
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  to the realization slowly and uh some a very slow person when it comes to romance like my husband
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  and i dated for like three years before we got married it was a year before we said we'd love
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  each other uh so it's it's something that i like i'm not the person who will like fall in love i might
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  be attracted but i'm gonna take my time getting to the realization and i wanted that to be something
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  that my characters had because um love isn't supposed to be easy it's it's supposed to be a journey
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  and i i think that's what i tried for in my books um i also don't do like uh trying love triangles
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  because i really i don't like them i'm like i'm very black and white in my care you uh once you
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  someone that's kind of like the only person in our my mind uh and my character's mind so
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  that's why i don't like to do like over together we're not together over together we're not
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  together type things yeah i think for me um love triangles were kind of spoiled or exhausted maybe
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  as the word by the the twilight books when they were out kind of like oh no and there was a lot
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  of other similar books at the time not another love triangle so yeah i'm with you there
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  so um i actually spend probably more time listening to your books than i do uh reading them because
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  i find them great for just listening to what i'm doing my dog books and you know stacking the
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  dishwasher and all those sort of household things um so what do you think about the audiobooks and
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  the role they're now playing in bringing you new audiences do you for example do you have a say in
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  who reads them so yes um i tanters the one who publishes my audience and i get the final say like
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  they will suggest narrators for me like do you like this narrator for this story and then i
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  have a yes or vote and if i don't like them they'll go find more um but i i have a very confession
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  to make i've never listened except for mistesh which i produced on my own i've never actually
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  listened to a full book of mine because i find it extremely creating hearing my words right back to me
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  so um i hope they're really good and people have said they are so that they are they are they are
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  they are good yeah yeah no so i think you can be you can rest assured there then good ambassadors for
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  your work and i do look for even though i've read the books i still will get the um the audio version
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  just because they're i think for me listening to audiobooks i find it hard to listen to i know a
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  literary novel or a classic um some kind of dekins or something on audio but uh a well told
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  fantasy novel like yours are just perfect audio listens they keep you you know you can follow
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  the plot and keep you interested so um also i on my read of your website you mentioned that you have
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  a secret project i don't want you you'll see i'm not asking you to a divulge what that is but are we
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  talking about a new series are you starting something entirely new is that what's going on there
• 29:07
  that's that's yeah i i have like four or five series that have been in my brain for like a couple
• 29:13
  years now and i'm getting to the point where it's hard to find things to read they want to read
• 29:18
  is the books in my head um and that's what happened when i wrote firebird is like i had three series
• 29:24
  going and i knew i shouldn't do another series and um i couldn't i couldn't resist anymore i i wrote
• 29:31
  that book like mostly on the weekend um after i finished whatever the main book was for the week
• 29:40
  and i'm getting to the point where i'm starting to wanting to take time from what i'm working on
• 29:45
  to to do this new stuff um so yeah there is stuff coming down the pipe and i'm really really excited
• 29:53
  for it um um i'm going back and forth on which one i'm gonna first but yeah i'm super super super excited
• 30:02
  well that's that's great you know i'll be amongst the customers buying it first so that's wonderful
• 30:08
  so one of the things that we do writing courses for people who are um sort of stretching their
• 30:15
  wings as fantasy writers and we spend one at least one of our sessions on world building
• 30:20
  so when you do well-bid building are you the kind of person who does the talking thing
• 30:26
  i was spending like ages building a whole world and a map and um i know that which is
• 30:33
  which is and all that stuff or uh well you tell us what you do um so i i don't i don't spend a lot of
• 30:40
  time um on the world building like i will so the place in the setting in the world i do take time
• 30:49
  like with pathfinders i knew i wanted like this certain theme of outside writers versus insiders
• 30:56
  and us versus them and and i thought how i can demonstrate to readers and i knew that there was
• 31:04
  this tribe called the triteri who are from this distant lands who were conquering things and i
• 31:10
  wanted a clear debit between the lowlands and the highlands and the badlands um but that was pretty
• 31:17
  much the extent like i didn't go through and say okay where are the major cities like i know that
• 31:22
  there's pathfinders have their own little castle somewhere in highlands but everything else is like
• 31:28
  okay i know i want these to be like very small villages that have been isolated from the world
• 31:33
  because of the situation which you learn about in the books um but i didn't go through and be like oh
• 31:40
  let's go name all of these these villages now before i even start writing it's kind of something
• 31:47
  where you you start writing and you're like okay well they have to go to this village to meet these
• 31:51
  people so what is village called what is it where is it located do they have a goods for the reason
• 31:59
  for being there like you have to have a reason for everything like you can't just have somebody
• 32:04
  go somewhere and be like very nice here's like all these really cool things you have to have a reason
• 32:08
  for being there and for them it was like trade um and then you kind of start going from there
• 32:14
  and then religion will come into it sometimes like based off like okay do you want
• 32:20
  religions in here okay what does that religion looks like what is the world what are their fears
• 32:25
  and then you go from there and you build it um as for the the language i kind of just like put
• 32:33
  syllables together and then that's like whatever the word is um and like i try to think about
• 32:40
  culturally like what is going to be important to this race i'm creating or the species um and i try
• 32:47
  to think about those kinds of things um but yeah thank you and i think i'd be a relief to some
• 32:55
  people who feel that who you know a lot of there are fantasy writers that do the other way around
• 32:59
  obviously and spend ages on this and they can be quite daunting if you turn up a writing class
• 33:04
  and someone says yes here's my novel series i've been working on since i was 14 and they speak
• 33:09
  six languages and you know you don't have to do that is what you're saying you can be very
• 33:13
  sensitive i think it reads for me it reads better if you discover the interesting things about your
• 33:21
  world a little bit organically like you should start from a base you should have an idea of like
• 33:26
  the topography like the types of people like what's important to those people people um like if
• 33:33
  there's a lot that in there you can you can kind of think about that beforehand but i'd prefer to
• 33:38
  let the the circumstances of the novel dictate what we're talking about like in um dry running chronicles
• 33:46
  you have this religion but it's based on ancestor when that's because of the people at the
• 33:52
  beginning of this world having to make sacrifices and everybody kind of worships those five three
• 33:58
  or four people um but they're people and it's not like and that's why that that religion has developed
• 34:06
  that way i i took the circumstances of the world and then developed something that made sense within
• 34:11
  the pyramid of that world and i think for me that's the best way to develop a world um other people
• 34:20
  will probably tell you something different i think it differs for every person but you have to
• 34:24
  find out what works um for me organically building the world and making it a little bit more
• 34:30
  complicated with each book that's what's really interesting about writing and reading um fantasy and
• 34:37
  sci-fi yeah and i'm using a character to whom everything is new is a way of using the natural way
• 34:43
  of showing because they're discovering it too um so you don't get the download of information
• 34:49
  unnecessarily you know the other the other port that you can get right well it's been wonderful
• 34:55
  talking to you Toby and before we let you go back to your writing hopefully um we always end the
• 35:02
  podcast with wearing all the fantasy worlds is it best place for something now i came to your writing
• 35:08
  first through the pathfinder series in fact my daughter who's in her 20s said to me oh mom you know
• 35:13
  we often share booktips she said oh i really like this series i think you'll like it um which is
• 35:18
  true um so we and uh shea as you mentioned is very good at her job of finding a path and
• 35:27
  she has some maps some annotated maps and there's quite a theme about bad maps and her own good maps
• 35:33
  uh in the books so i thought i'd ask you to pick not your own necessarily though feel free to do so
• 35:41
  where you think in all the fantasy worlds is a best map uh so a would have trouble like there's
• 35:50
  so many places you could pick uh i'll stick to my own stuff because i don't want to actually say
• 35:56
  somebody's name wrong um but i think from my my stuff like pat the pathfinder world would have
• 36:03
  the best the most interesting maps at least like when you talk about a single planet like
• 36:08
  firebird that's like a whole but there's star maps um i haven't really investigated the typography
• 36:15
  and all that stuff for that series but i think about the broken lands in the pathfinder just
• 36:20
  have the best type of maps so just coming back on my side i was thinking about this and um
• 36:28
  i think there's i'll have to mention of course a sort of honorable mention to um the marauder's map
• 36:35
  of which is obviously a map of one building in harry potter but that you know that's a magic map that moves
• 36:41
  uh that would be really cool and then there's of course the iconic maps and i think if we go iconic
• 36:47
  it's got to be the one in the hobbit um with the dragon flying and and the moon letters that were hidden
• 36:53
  yeah that we like i was to pick somebody else is always going to be like hobbit and talking
• 36:59
  that world because like he he puts so much thought into it um i don't really know too many
• 37:06
  other like there are other others who have put that much thought but like i feel like he's
• 37:11
  went above whatever you want yeah thank you so much for spending some time with us and uh we'll
• 37:20
  be putting a link to your website in the show notes so people can go and if they haven't yet
• 37:25
  had the delight of reading your series go and find your books and there's a brief description
• 37:31
  of each series on your website so people will find which one they want urban fantasy or whatever
• 37:38
  anyway so thank you very much and thank you for having me it's a pleasure
• 37:47
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• 37:54
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• 38:01
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