Latest / Mind Over Mountain / From Olympic Heartbreak to Surviving Breast Cancer with Donna Fraser

Transcript

From Olympic Heartbreak to Surviving Breast Cancer with Donna Fraser · Mind Over Mountain

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Mind Over Mountain with me, Cheryl Strayed. This week,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: my guest is Donna Fraser. Donna is a four-time Olympic
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: sprinter from Great Britain. In our conversation, we talk about
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: her running career, about her breast cancer diagnosis, and about
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: the healing power of sharing your story. Let's listen to
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: our conversation. Donna Fraser, welcome to Mind Over Mountain. Thank you.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm thrilled to talk to you. I watched you
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: run in Sydney in 2000. And we're going to get
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: to that conversation. You're, of course, a four-time Olympic sprinter
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: for Great Britain. But let's back up before we get
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: to some of those exciting races that you've run. When
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: did you first fall in love with running and how
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: did you find your way to this wonderful sport?
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: That's a question I absolutely love because it takes me
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: back to my childhood. Of course, I don't remember all
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: of these stories that I'm told from my parents, but
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: from a very young age, I was so excited to play.
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: So I was crawling around and would try and get
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: up and run and then flop back down again. And
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: then eventually, once I started to run and walk, that
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: was it. The rest was history. But my family loved sport.
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: I grew up in a household full of sport from
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: cricket right through to horse racing.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Any sport was always on the TV.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: But my sister, my older sister, there's a 10-year age
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: gap between myself and the sister before me, and she
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: loved athletics.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: So, of course, I wanted to be just like her.
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, I just fell in love with athletics. But
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: in fact, it was the 84 Olympic Games in Los
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: Angeles that truly inspired me. And then being at school
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: as well, just being surrounded by fantastic teachers who identified
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: that I had the talent. And yeah, so I just
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: love to run.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: So how did you figure out when you were watching
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: those Olympic events in 1984, were you specifically tuned in
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: to the runners and the sprinters? By then, were you
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: starting to see that not only did you love sports,
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: but this was your sport?
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: It wasn't even the events.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: It was more so the parade, seeing so many different
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: countries and just seeing that sea of color, just.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: I was like, wow, what is this? I want to
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: be part of that.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: So I had this thing in my mind that it
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: wasn't even about the sport itself. It was just the
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: fact that so many different countries, the flags and, Just
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: so many people, all shapes and sizes competing. So, yeah,
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: it wasn't until I realized that athletics was part of
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: the Olympic Games. I was like, right, that's my thing.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: That's my thing. And so when did you start running
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: and when did you start to realize, wait a minute,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: I'm actually kind of really good at this?
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: I was at primary school, which I think, would you
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: call that?
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: I don't know what you call that in the States,
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: but I was eight years old.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: That would be elementary school. There you go.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: There you go. So that makes sense for you.
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, I was eight years old when my primary
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: school teacher selected me to represent the school over 55 metres.
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: Not very long, but when you're eight years old, it
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: seems like a mile. And being the youngest in the team,
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: I was just so, so nervous. But I had great
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: role models in the team, older girls from the same
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: school looking after me because I was extremely shy, Cheryl.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: But when I was running, I was just so out
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: of my comfort zone and just loved it. Wow.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: So you were really shy, very introverted, but then you're
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: running and you felt you could feel that was like
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: where you could fully express yourself with the body essentially.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: And because I did go to an all girls primary
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: school as well. So all the teachers were female, all
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: my peers were female. So just being around that just
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: made me feel comfortable and getting the support from them.
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: And my teacher, Mrs. Hughes, she was just fantastic. She'd
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: always tell her girls to be determined. And that's something
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: that I've held on to ever since.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: I love that. You know, obviously you did turn out
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: to be very talented and you became an elite runner,
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: but I think, you know, I'm such an advocate. I
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: know you are too of girls participating in sports and
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: it's not about how quote unquote good you are. It's
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: about doing it. Because I think whether you're introverted or
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: extroverted or naturally gifted physically or not, that something about
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: moving the body and pushing yourself and relying on your
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: determination is really transformative and helps us grow up to
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: be strong women.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, most certainly.
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: And, you know, we know when you're active, it produces endorphins.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: It gives you that feel good factor.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: And being in that team environment made it even better
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: where everyone's supporting each other. And as you say, for
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: women and girls, when so many of us sometimes lack
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: that confidence, if that's what being active and being part
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: of something does for you, then why wouldn't you not?
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. So at a certain point, you were doing more
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: than representing your class at school. You were really realizing
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: that you were a competitor. How did you, as you
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: moved into being an elite runner as a young woman,
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: What do you think, how did you start to recognize
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: that potential and what did you do to make good
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: on it, to step into that world?
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great question because, of course, athletics back
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: then was just an amateur sport. It wasn't so much
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: a career as it were. So I always had the
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: back of my mind, I will, I'll want to do
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: something or need to do something else simply because my
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: parents wouldn't let me just do sport anymore. It wasn't
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: deemed as a career as it were. So I decided
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: to think about what else I could do.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: So I wanted to get into tourism.
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: So that was something that I was heavily interested in
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: and traveling the world and doing all of that. In
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: terms of athletics, you go through the ranks and you
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: represent your school, then you represent your county, then you
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: eventually represent your country.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: And there's those stages.
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: And then, of course, when I had amazing, that letter
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: of being selected to represent my country at my first
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: Olympic Games, it was like, yes, I've made it.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: You know, it was a dream come true.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: But of course... You have to do the work. It's
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: all well and good being selected. But once you're there,
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: you have a lot of work to do. You don't
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: want to, you know, disappoint anyone, let alone yourself. So
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: I was lucky to have a great support network, my family,
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: my coach, my friends who knew that something that I
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: loved and I had that talent. But you have to
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: put the work in it and having juggling two careers,
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: as it.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Were, because I worked hard.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: There was no lottery funding as what we have here
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: in the UK back then. It was very much heavily
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: reliant on my family and my savings. And it's something
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: that I think being in that position, I learned how
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: to manage money and to manage my time very well
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: in order to be able to do both.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Right. So it was that physical challenge. you know, work
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: that you put in, the training and the running and all,
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: you know, all of the things you did, the coaching,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: but also that mental determination that your old, you know, former,
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: I guess, teacher, school mistress imbued in you that you
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: have to also bring that mental part to the game.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: That first Olympics, 1996 in Atlanta, what did that feel like?
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: Wow. I was very much like a kid in the
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: candy shop when I arrived in Atlanta. The Olympic Games
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: is everything what you dream it to be. And when
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: I think back to LA, Los Angeles in 84, seeing
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: that sea of colour, it was very much like that
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: in the Olympic Village. But more so just wearing the
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: Team GB vest and having the same kit as the
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: rest of my teammates. And Being in that environment where
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: everyone was there to perform to the best of their
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: ability wasn't just about medals. It was just having that
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: sense of pride and knowing that I'd made it, you know,
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: the dream had come true. But like I said, you know,
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: I had to... I had to work hard because back
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: then the 400 metres had four rounds. It wasn't three
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: like it is today. So it was mentally tough to
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: go through the rounds. But I only got to the
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: second round anyway, but I did get a personal best.
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: So I couldn't have asked for much more in all honesty.
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: But yeah, the games was fantastic. The Americans, as you know,
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: know how to put on a show. So, yeah, it
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: was a true... For my first Olympic Games, I couldn't
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: have asked for more. And, you know, having Muhammad Ali
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: come into the Olympic Village, seeing him, I was like, oh,
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: my goodness, this is just too much. I was just like,
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: my eyes were all over the place. You can imagine
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: how excited I was.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, he's obviously... And I'm sure
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: you met so many of your heroes across the board,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: you know, your competitors among them. I've always thought that
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: every Olympian I speak to talks about the social atmosphere of,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: you know, simply being at the Olympic Village, meeting athletes
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: um from your sport and other sports and really getting
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: to talk shop I bet that's just an unforgettable experience.
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: Oh for sure you know when you're in the the
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: where the restaurant or restaurant or the canteen whatever you
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: want to call it and you're almost sat next to
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: an athlete from a different sport that you'd normally see
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: on TV was just like, oh my goodness. But then
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: there was that level of respect that you wouldn't just
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: be going crazy. You'd respect their space at the same time.
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: But that was the normality. We were just one big family.
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: And the Olympic Village is very, very special. It's a
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: place where you feel safe. It's a place where there's
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: no airs or graces, no matter what you've achieved. Everyone's
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: almost on an even keel and to do the best
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: that they can. So that's a nice feeling. It's comforting.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: And it also dampens some of those nerves that some
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: of those first time Olympians like I was back then
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: definitely helped me.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And it prepared you, I'm sure, for that next Olympics,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: which I already mentioned, 2000 in Sydney. I remember that
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: race so vividly. I bet you remember it more vividly
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: than I do. But of course, Kathy Freeman, there was
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: so much. I just remember there was so much excitement
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: hype and attention and around the globe, people were watching
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: this race, the 400 meter. You were not only, she's
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: a friend of yours, but also you trained together, I understand.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: And you had set a personal best in Atlanta four
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: years before, but you also, for the first time in
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: this race, Kathy Freeman won the gold and you came
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: in fourth and ran it the fastest as you'd ever run,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: 49.79 seconds. How did that feel? I mean, tell me
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: about that race. Take me back to what it was
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: like to be there on that starting line and run
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: for those less than 50 seconds.
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that was, every time I watch that race, I
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: expect a different result. It's one of those where it's
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: such a, it's a bitter pill to swallow. As you know,
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: coming fourth, you don't get a medal for coming fourth.
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: But having said that, that journey leading into those games
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: was just I couldn't have asked for a better preparation
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: and a better training partner than Kathy Freeman she's a
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: phenomenal individual to be around I learned so much from
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: her and her coach and her support network from her
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: physio right through to her family I had the opportunity
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: to meet and yeah it's it just goes to show
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: that You know, she is a human being, but at
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: the same time, she worked just as hard as anybody else.
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: But it's just that percentage, she wanted it more. And
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: there was so much on her shoulders that we all know,
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: being in Sydney... in her home country just meant so much,
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: not only to the Australians, but to the Aboriginal community
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: as well.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: So I.
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: Felt the pressure for her. She handled it extremely well.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: But that race was definitely....
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: One that I wish I could rerun, but you know,
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: it is what it is.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: I learned, I learned so much from that race at
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: the same time around self-belief or lack of self-belief, should
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: I say. But it was a race that I wish
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: I'd not been in lane two.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: That's number one.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: I wish I was in the outer lanes like I
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: was through the rounds, but it is what it is.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: But Yeah, just that lack of self-belief that I had
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: in an Olympic final. I'm just kicking myself every time
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: I watch it. But yeah, personal best, fourth best in
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: the world. If someone had said that to me, maybe
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: I would have said, yeah, right. I wasn't thinking about
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: the time breaking 50 seconds. I just saw it as
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: another 400 meters. But maybe that's my downfall. Wow.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, Donna, because when I first asked
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: that question and when I think of you in that race,
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: obviously it's heartbreaking to place outside the medals. And if
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: I'm remembering correctly, I mean, you missed it by like
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: not even a second. I It was, you were the
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: fourth fastest in the world. You ran the race of
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: your life. It was, I mean, when you look back
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: on it, do you feel any of that sense of
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: celebration or do you just feel that kind of regret?
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: And I wish I could run it again. Do you
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: feel any sense of triumph and victory? Because it certainly
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: was that, right?
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: It took me a long time to embrace the fact
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: that I'd broken 50 seconds. I was fourth best in
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: the world. It took a long time to digest that.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: Now I'm much older.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: I appreciate it. I do commend myself. But at the
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: same time, there's that little smidgen of.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Why did you do that, Donna? You know, kind of thing.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: But yeah, of course, of course, you.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: Know, any athlete who feels like they underperformed would love
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: to relive that moment again.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: But I can't do that.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: But what I can do is certainly give back to
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: up and coming athletes some of those experiences that I
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: learned along the way. So that gives me a sense
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: of fulfillment in a weird way.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: When you say, why did you do that? Like, what
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: is it that you think you did that you would
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: do differently? Is it a, you mentioned that like you
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: didn't have this total belief in yourself. Is, you know,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: when you take yourself back to those 49 points, seven,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: nine seconds. Is that what it is? Or seven, two,
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: I want to get it right. 49.79. I don't want to,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: you know, add it. Okay.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: You can give me a quicker time, Cheryl. Give me
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: a quicker time.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Let's just round it down. 49 seconds. But like when
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: you think of it, when you say self-belief, you weren't
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: all the way there. How could you have done something differently?
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: I changed my race plan. I wasn't aware of what
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: was going on around me. That first 200, I was
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: so in the zone, as we call it. I wasn't
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: aware that I was last at 200 to go. I
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: was in eighth position. And that in itself, when I
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: look at the splits, I went through way too slowly.
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: I could have run that backwards in training and I
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: went through too slow. So with 300 to go, sorry,
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: with that 150 to go, I had too much to
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: make up. So to go from eighth to fourth, that's
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: where the bitter pill comes in because I just think
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: if only I'd run even a Half a second quicker
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: that first 200, I would have been in more contention
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: with 150 to go.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: But it wasn't meant to be.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: But the good thing, in a way, is I'm most
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: remembered for that last 100 metres coming through.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Because you're just like... It was a sight to see.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: It was a sight to see, right? You made up
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: a lot of ground.
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Either they were just slowing down or I was
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: picking up.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Or a little bit of both. I wonder if
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: you've reflected a bit on, you know, this is something
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: I think about a lot. The difference between winning, whether
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: that be winning a medal or outright winning, winning the
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: race and succeeding, which I think that, you know, you succeeded.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: You absolutely did. You broke 50 seconds and you set
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: your personal record and all of those things. You didn't win,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: but you succeeded. How do you reflect on that as
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: a person and an athlete?
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: Is there a difference between that to you?
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Oh, 100%.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: 100%.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: I probably didn't see that at the time.
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: But it wasn't until I returned back to the UK,
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: I realized the impact of me coming forth had on...
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: The people that know me, my community, my friends, my
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: coach wasn't best pleased, which you can imagine. But, you know,
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: in the grand scheme of things, yes, I'd broken 50 seconds,
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: fourth best in the world, made the Olympic final. You know,
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: you can weigh up so many things in that space
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: compared to not getting a medal.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, I would have loved to have got a medal.
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: No athlete turns up to come last or not get
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: a medal. I wouldn't be an athlete if that was
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: the case. You have to take the rough with the smooth.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: And I think as professional athletes, you can't change what's happened.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: But what you can do is embrace what has happened
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: and learn from that. So that's how I've learned to
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: deal with that disappointment.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: And I'm sure that's informed you in other parts of
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: your life. What comes to mind when you say, when
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: you're talking about taking the rough with the smooth and
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: learning how to... you know, learn from the things that
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: life hands you that you didn't want. When you were
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: 36 in 2009, you were diagnosed with breast cancer. Can
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: you tell me how was it that you first came
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: to realize you had breast cancer?
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: So it was after, well, after my last Olympic Games, 2008,
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: I was just so looking forward to the following year, 2009,
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: the World Championships. I thought I need to try something different.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: So I started to do 400 metres indoors, which is
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: extremely hard with these long legs that I have.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: But I needed that challenge.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: And the May of that year, I noticed a lump
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: in my breast and I thought, oh, that's probably, maybe
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: I'm a bit run down.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: Or I've been training too hard. I put it down
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: to that.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: But at the same time, I followed all the advice
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: that you hear out there, you know, keep an eye
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: on it. If it doesn't change, go and see your
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: doctor and all of that. And So I went to
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: my GP and she said, well, regardless, it will need
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: to be removed, but we'll get it checked out at
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: the same time, which is what they did. So I
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: had a biopsy. I'm really cutting a long story short.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: I had a biopsy and it was then that the
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: results came back that I had breast cancer. So it
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: was Devastating news, as you can imagine. It knocked me
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: for six.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: It really did.
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: I didn't see that coming whatsoever.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: And yeah, it was.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: you know, being a professional athlete where I was fit, well,
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: all of that, you're just thinking, why me all the time?
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: That's in the back of your mind. Why me?
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: Why me? But I think, and I say this all
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: the time, that probably had I not been a professional athlete,
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't have coped with it very well.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: I think as a professional athlete, you learn to bounce back.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: You learn to overcome adversity and You have that mental
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: space to really have that self-talk. And I did a
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: lot of that. I'm not saying it was easy by
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: no means.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: It wasn't.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: But I learned so much about myself through that period that,
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: you know, I look back on it now and I
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: do count myself lucky because I caught it early.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: So I was able to deal with it.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: But there's so many women and men out there who
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: do not catch it early. They leave it and think, oh,
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: I'll be fine.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: I'll be fine. And then it progresses and there's no
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: turning back.
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: So, yes, it was a tough journey. I won't lie,
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: but I've come out the other end. And that's why
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: I like to give back and share my story. Yeah.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, you, I think you say something that a
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: lot of people who get a cancer or breast cancer
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: diagnosis say, like, you know, there's this sense of like,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: why me? Or how can this be true? And it's
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: as if we all go around thinking that like, we
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: get to make the plans for, you know, like, you know, knock,
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: knock life, you know, we're in charge, and then life
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: knocks back and says, Actually, you know, I mean, one
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: thing I talk about in this podcast a lot are
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: the sort of the ways that, you know, we choose these,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: like we ascend these mountains. And I think in sport,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: it's like, those are the mountains we choose. Like we
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: purposely go and run a marathon or run a mile
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: or do hard things because we want to test ourselves.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: But in life, of course, we don't always get to
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: choose the mountains that we're forced to climb.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: Absolutely not.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Take me back to those first, those early days. When
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: you realize, okay, wait a minute, I'm this incredibly strong, fit,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: healthy woman who now has this serious illness. How did
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: you proceed? How did you make decisions about your treatment
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: or what to do next or how to address this?
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so that was an interesting one because the plan
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: was to have.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: A course of radiotherapy. But when I went to.
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: discussed that with the professor at the Royal Marsden, I
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: was presented with the option to have a mastectomy, which
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: was another curveball. I didn't see that coming. I didn't
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: even think that was an option. I went in there
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: thinking I was going to discuss my radiotherapy treatment.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: And to be told that.
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: That was another blow in a sense, I didn't even
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: see that. Yeah, it was a big shock. That was
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: my second shock through this whole process. So having to
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: take that piece of news back home and digest it
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: and think about it and to and froing and... It
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: was just another thing to think about. But yeah, I
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: definitely had a lot of self-talk. And at the time,
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: it seemed a really simple question. And I know it's
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: not as simple for many, but I literally asked myself,
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: do I want to live or die? And because I
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: think when you hear that diagnosis, you do automatically think
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: it's a death sentence and it's not always the case.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: But, you know, I was 36.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: I didn't know anything about breast cancer or anything. And
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: I decided to go for a mastectomy. So, again, it
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: was probably the athlete in me. Let's just cut to
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: the chase. I can't be flapping around with this. I'm
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: just going to go for it. And I took that route.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: And I do believe that it's the best decision I
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: ever made. Right.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: And you probably had to get real quiet with yourself,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: consult the friends and family and doctors and experts and
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: then just get quiet with yourself and decide which step
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: was the right one for you and which step was
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: the right one after that.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Definitely.
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: And that's the interesting part because as you say, I
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: spoke to so many people who know me and all
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: of them said, Donna, it's got to be your decision.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: And I was like, no, will someone just tell me
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: the answer? I want someone to tell me what to do. Yeah, exactly.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: And yeah.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: And again, you know, when you're going through that, you
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: do want someone just to say, do this. But I
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: understand why they said I had to make the decision
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: and it was the right thing that they did. And
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: And I don't have any regrets whatsoever. Of course, as
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: a woman, that's part of you. And when you think,
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: oh my goodness, you know, how are people going to
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: see me when I only have one boob.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: But actually.
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: Who's going to know, you know, when you think about it?
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Who is going to know? And I'm still me. I'm
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: still Donna.
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: I'm still, I'd like to say, the fun-loving person that.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: I always will be.
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: And there's just that one piece of me that doesn't
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: exist anymore. And that one little piece was the bad piece.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: And I call it the bad little bit of Donna
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: that's been removed and that's gone. So, yeah, it's... It
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: just goes to show how powerful the mindset is and
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: how it can make you feel. That positive thought process
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: that I had to keep reminding myself that everything is
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: going to be fine and you're still you, Donna. It's
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: what you do next. And I think that, as I
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: said before, I think that's the athlete in me. You
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: can't change what's happened in the past. You can only
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: change what happens in the future.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can only move forward. you know, one
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: day at a time, one step at a time and,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: you know, go out and try your best, you know,
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: yet again and again and again. You mentioned that you
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: feel like that being a professional athlete really helped you
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: with the kind of mindset because obviously so much of
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: part of, you know, doing the running the way that
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: you do and did is about like believing in yourself
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: and saying, I can take that next step. I'm curious about, recovery.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: You know, when you endured, it's a big deal, obviously,
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: to have a mastectomy, to have that kind of major surgery.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Did you feel like you're, you know, being so fit
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: and being an elite athlete helped you in the healing
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: process and recovery process too? Or was it hard for
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: you to, I don't know, rest the way you're supposed to?
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: Cheryl, it's as if you know me already. Yeah, it's
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: as if you know me. It was quite interesting because
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: I do remember the care nurse pulling my sister to
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: one side before the surgery and she asked my sister,
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: is Donna okay? Because she's just so happy and smiling
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: and I said no that's how Donna deals with things
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: you know if things are tough that that helps her
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: get through things and it was quite funny like after
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: the surgery obviously in a lot of pain and they
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: give you the the exercises to do to be mobile.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: And I was like, really?
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: This is not what I do. So I really did
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: push myself a little bit, sometimes too much.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: But I was like, no, I can do more than this.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, wait, they weren't hard enough for you, Donna?
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: They weren't hard enough.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: For me. They're like, raise your arms. You're like, no,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: I'm going to do a pull-up. Yes. Okay, so.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: So you so what happened you had to you had
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: to reverse instead of pushing yourself physically that you're so
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: used to doing you had to say no scale back
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: right in order to recover I.
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: Did I did I had to because of course, stitches
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: and everything like that, I had to say, come on, Donna,
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: you've got to listen to the advice and relax and
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: all of that kind of stuff. But yeah, I was
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: eager to get back out there and moving and talking
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: about it as well, which I just felt I needed to,
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: if I could share my story and help others. through
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: this journey in the position that I was in as
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: an athlete that people often believe are untouchable with anything.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: If you're an elite athlete, they're fine, they're fit, nothing
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: happens to them. Then that really does change the narrative
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: about any diagnosis and just to be body aware. So
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: that's something that I really thought about through my recovery
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: is what can I do after this when I'm back
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: to my normal self?
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: How can I give back?
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: So that's how I got involved in the breast cancer charity,
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: Breast Cancer Now.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And you are an ambassador for Breast Cancer Now. Now,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: back in 2009, however, when you learned you had breast
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: cancer and when you went through surgery and treatment and recovery,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: it forced your retirement from sprinting. But then... You had
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: a comeback. And that's, if I'm understanding correctly, it was 2012.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: The Olympics were in London. Of course, you wanted to
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: be part of it. And you decided to have a comeback.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: And on, I think, the day, right? You know, like
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: right before a race, you went public and said, hey,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: there is, you know, I had, I have breast cancer.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: And that's why I had retired a few years ago.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: What brought about that decision? Was it so that you
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: could offer your story by way of helping other people?
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: No, it was more the fact that I wanted to,
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: I mean, the games were happening in London, who wouldn't
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: want to try and compete at your home, in your
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: hometown and I knew it was going to be a
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: big ask. You know, being out of the sport for
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: a long time, I was much older. So my fitness
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: level really needed to elevate. So I did work as
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: hard as I could. Realistically, I knew it would be hard,
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: but I just wanted to get to the trials and
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: end my athletics career on my terms. And that was
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: why I saw it through that lens. And Then, of course,
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: the newspaper wanted to run it. And I was like, oh,
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: my gosh, my parents weren't that happy about me telling
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: my story far and wide. But then I realized this
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: wasn't just about me. This was about the lives I
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: could potentially save. And as you say, that that went
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: viral on the day of the trials to get to
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: get a standing ovation at the Olympic Trials. On the
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: start line, I just was like, how on earth am
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: I going to get around this 400 metres with all
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: these emotions going on? And it was a lot. It
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: was really tough because I was like... There's so many
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: people out there that are supporting me without even realising it.
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: And they probably didn't realise what seeing that, what that did.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: To me in my mind and how I felt.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: It was almost like I had a massive hug in
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: that stadium, which just.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Felt so nice. And not that I was looking for
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: sympathy or anything like that. It wasn't that. It was
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: just knowing that.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: They appreciated me trying and ending my athletics career on
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: my terms.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah well they knew that they knew that they were
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: in the company of greatness and that your heroic efforts
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: that you know again that that was about succeeding didn't
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: matter if you won or not you already won you
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: you won by showing up at the starting line on
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: that day true so true what did What did that
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: feel like? So, you know, I bet that's hard because,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: you know, you're trying to get like your head in
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: the game and suddenly you just want to like fall
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: on the ground and weep, right? Because you're so moved
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: by these, you get this standing ovation. So how did
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: you like contain that or did it help you run faster?
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Or do you think it altered your race at all
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: that day?
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I just wanted to get round. I just wanted
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: to get round this 400 meters in one piece and
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: not make a complete and utter fool of myself, which
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: I didn't. But it was such a nice feeling at
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: the same time, you know, that.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: I was, the best way I can explain it, it was.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: I was carrying all those those who were living with
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: breast cancer, all those who have gone through a diagnosis,
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: those who have just been diagnosed, all of those people
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: on my shoulders with me ran that 400 meters. And
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: it was, you know, when you say your heart is full,
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: that's how I could, the only way I could describe it. Yeah.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: That's beautiful. That's so powerful. So then it was, after that,
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: like after you had gone public, that you decided to
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: step forward and really become an ambassador for Breast Cancer
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: Now and become somebody who is really sharing your story.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: What is that experience? How is that? I mean, obviously
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: you've made an impact on others. I know that. I
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: want to ask you about that. But what I'm most
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: interested in hearing is, How did that, you know, sharing
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: your story, how has that played into your own healing
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: and recovery and given you strength and courage as you
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: face this illness?
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it would have been easy for me
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: just to have my surgery and then just tuck away
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: and keep quiet. But I think the fact that I
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: connected with this charity, they became my therapy and talking
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: about it. They gave me the space to share my story.
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: And sometimes it feels like I'm talking about someone else
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: and it's weird.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: It's a weird feeling.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: But at the same time, I just feel that even
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: if there's one person out there that can hear my
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: story and the importance of checking yourself and all of that,
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: that can help someone that makes me feel good because I,
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: you know, there's always hope and just spreading that awareness
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: and being able to give back just means so much
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: more to me. And at the same time has helped
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: me heal mentally and physically. It's a strange feeling because yes,
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: I'm a breast cancer now ambassador, but I, I don't.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: See it as that. I just see them as my
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: extended family.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: You also have done some running in support of this organization.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: I understand you ran a marathon. Not your sport. Not
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: your sport. How did that go? Long way. It's a
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: lot longer than 400 meters.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: Cheryl, honestly, there's only one word I can describe it,
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: and that was painful. It was painful. painful I've never
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: experienced anything like it in my entire life um I'm
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: glad I did it and I did it for the
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: right reasons but I will never ever do a marathon again.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know it's like I would think it would
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: be easier for you than for just like the average
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: person who runs a marathon because, you know, you have
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: that level of fitness, you have that level of like
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: knowing how to really like push yourself to the limit.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: Did you feel like you were, because it is such
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: a different endeavor than sprinting, that you were really just
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: a novice?
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: Even just talking about it now makes me feel unwell.
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: It's just....
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: It was just horrendous.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: It's different muscle groups. That's number one.
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: But I did all the training leading up to it.
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: I did everything right apart from the shoes.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: That was my downfall.
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: And as a sprinter, you just think, yeah, I'll get.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: A pair of trainers out of the box. No problem.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: But of course, no, that's not the case. You need
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: to wear them in. So that was my downfall, number one.
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: My feet were on fire for most of the 26.2 miles.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: But it's a different mindset. You know, I'm a sprinter.
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: You get from A to B as quickly as possible.
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: The marathon is to get from A to B as
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: slowly as possible and in one piece. So again, just
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: changing the mindset just was doing my head in because
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking I can get from over here to there
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: really quickly normally. That's how I'm wired. But I had
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: to really train my mind. No, this is not about speed.
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: And that was hard mentally. It was really hard.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Do you remember how quickly you ran the marathon? What
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: was your time?
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: Yes, I've got a picture up in my hallway that
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: reminds me every single time. Five hours and six minutes
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: and change. It was the worst five hours and six minutes.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: Of my life.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: That's great. You know, I love watching the Olympics, especially
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: track and field, especially the running events. And one of
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: my favorite events to watch is the marathon. And what
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: just absolutely blows me away is the pace of those marathoners,
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: those people who are like, you know, taking the medals
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: and in the top 10, top 20. I mean, they're
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: running faster that whole 26.2 miles than I could run
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: for 10 feet, you know? I mean, it's... It's like
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: you have to have some other thing going on, I think, physically.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: They're phenomenal. They really are.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: And honestly, I'm with you. I love watching the marathon,
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: but I don't love running it.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, you've done that and you showed your support.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: And you mentioned, so I'm curious, as an ambassador and
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: as an advocate for breast cancer awareness, What do you
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: think are a couple of the most important messages that
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: you want to share with people about breast cancer?
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think for me, and I use Breast Cancer
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: Now's tagline, TLC, touch, look, check. Being body aware is
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: just so, so important. Checking yourself regularly. And as we know,
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: men can be diagnosed with breast cancer also.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: And we forget that quite often.
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: Anything that feels unusual, to yourself because if you are
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: body aware, then you will know when there are changes
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: and go and get it checked out. Don't just leave
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: it and say, oh, it'll be fine. I'll take a
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: couple of paracetamol, whatever, and I'll be fine. Go and
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: get it checked out. Go for your mammograms. That's also
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: very important because early detection will help and it's treatable then.
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: The longer you leave it, it's all about that prevention.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: So those are the two things, being body aware and
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: go for your mammograms. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, one of the things
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: that I hear echoing through everything you say is, you know,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: it can be so scary to face those things. You
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: feel that lump or you have that little doubt and
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: you're like, should I get this checked out? It's scary
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: to get it checked out, but I think it's scarier
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: not to, because at least when we know, we can
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: think it through and we can make those decisions. We
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: can take that step forward to that next best choice.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: You hit the nail right on the head there, Cheryl.
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: It's better to know than not to know when it's
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: too late. And that's often the case is people leave it,
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: leave it, leave it. And by the time you actually
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: go and get it checked out, it's advanced so much
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: that it's not treatable. So definitely that's a key message there.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: And it is scary. It is scary with anything.
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: You know, we all think that we're invincible and nothing
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: is ever going to happen to us. And there is
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: that fear, but it's just so important to press that
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: pause button and think, you know what, actually, thinking long-term,
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: do I still want to be here? It's better that
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: I know, then I can take action based on the
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: information that I know.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And, you know, I know too that we all
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: have our fears, but What I've learned in my life,
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: we can step into those scary things and there are
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: going to be people around us who are going to
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: help us down the path, right? You mentioned the key
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: support that you had with your family and friends, trusted friends,
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: doctors who said, okay, this is bad news. This isn't
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: the news we wanted, but we can help you down
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: the path. I have a Dear Sugar letter that's sort
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: of on that topic. And I'm wondering if I can
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: share it with you so you can help me give
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: some advice.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Sure, please do.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: Dear Sugar, one of my closest friends was recently diagnosed
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: with a serious illness. It's treatable, and there are many
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: reasons to be optimistic about the outcome, as she is
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: choosing to do. But there's also a chance that the
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: disease could eventually progress rather than be cured. In spite
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: of her positive outlook, I can see that she's scared
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: and stressed. We are both women in our early 30s.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: We've been friends since we met in our freshman year
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: of college. when our dorm rooms were next door to
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: each other and we instantly connected. After college, we both
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: moved to the same city and were even roommates for
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: several years, though we aren't anymore. We've had too many
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: fun times to count, and we've also supported each other
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: through some not-so-fun times, job and school disappointments, heartbreaks, conflicts
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: with dysfunctional or annoying family members, but we've never supported
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: each other through something as serious as this. That's the
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: reason I'm writing to you, sugar. My friend knows I
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: love her and I've told her I'm here for her.
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: But I want to be a truly good friend to
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: her through this difficult time. And sometimes I feel like
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. How do I go
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: beyond words and actually help her as she navigates this disease?
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: She lives alone and part of me wants to go
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: to her apartment and cook and clean or run errands
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: for her just to take some things off her plate.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: Do you think that's a good idea? All right, that's it.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: That's a very appropriate letter for this conversation, I think.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: And I wonder, Donna, what does you find helpful when
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: you were in that moment where you got this news,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: you have breast cancer, you're trying to make this decision
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: about treatment? How did others, how did friends and family
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: really offer you help and support?
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, wow, my heart goes out to this
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: good friend and the person who's going through this illness
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: has a great friend there, number one.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: I think we often forget about those.
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: Who are doing the supporting of the person who's going
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: through any diagnosis, any illness, because it's tough. They don't
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: know what to say, do, they're in limbo. No one's
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: offering that support. What I would say is when I
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: was going through that process, I didn't want to be
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: wrapped in cotton wool and just wanted to be me
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: and just everyone around me just carry on as normal
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: as possible.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: You want normality, especially if you're going for appointments.
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: You've got to do this. You've got to do that.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: And that's stressful in itself. So what I would definitely
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: recommend and the fact that they've known each other for
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: so long is, you know, or this person knows what
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: that other person has enjoyed and enjoys and do those things.
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: Make memories, make them feel happy, because I always say that.
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: positivity is great medicine. So anything that you can do
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: to have fun and enjoy, obviously being mindful that if
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: she does get, he or she gets tired, then so
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: that you have to be mindful of that.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: But I think you will know what, what, what.
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: Makes them feel good, that feel good factor that they need,
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: because that also is good medicine to help them get
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: through those tough times, both mentally and physically.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's great. I love that. I mean, I think
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: you're so right, because I do think when somebody has
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: an illness, there can be this sense of like, oh,
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: let's be really careful with that person. You know, like,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: let's not, everything now is about the illness rather than
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: who this person is. And even though that's offered with
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: concern and care, it can feel, I can imagine, quite isolating,
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: you know, because it's like, no, I still want to
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: go to the movies or I still want to, you know,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: go out and have breakfast on a Sunday morning with you.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: And so that's wonderful advice, Donna. And the advice I
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: would give on top of that, in addition to that,
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: to want to be a good friend is, you know,
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: ask your friend, you know, like, I think it's okay
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: to say, you know, make that shift from just let
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: me know what you need to what do you need?
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: And what do you need today? Like one day that
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: might be, I want to go out to the movies
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: and have fun or, you know, do that fun stuff.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: And other times it might be, you know, I want
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: to rest and I need somebody to just make me
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: dinner and drop it off on my doorstep and don't even,
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: you know, knock. I don't want any interaction, but I
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: need some care. And I think that breaking that kind
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: of awkward barrier that some of us feel sometimes because
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: we don't know what to say. As you mentioned, Donna,
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: it can be scary for not just the person getting
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: the diagnosis, but the people around them just saying, I
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: want to be your good friend through this. So I'm
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: going to check in with you. Is it okay if
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: I ask you every day what you need? What do
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: you think about that?
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: I totally agree. I think you could You can really
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: make it quite fun. It's almost like have a code
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: between both of them and say, like, we'll number it,
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: for example. Like, it's number one today. Okay, that could
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: mean just leave me alone. I need time out. Or
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: it could be a 10. I'm a 10 today. Let's
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: go for a walk somewhere in the park or go
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: for pizza, whatever it may be. I think if you
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: almost have that pact and a code of conduct between
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: friends and and always have a list and just make
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: it fun. So it's not too daunting, but I'd say
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: definitely that anyone going through some kind of diagnosis or illness,
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: they just want normality. They just want to be as
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: normal as possible because those are the things that make
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: them feel good.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. So want to be a good friend.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: The other thing that always occurs to me is that
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: like the fact that you even took the time to
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: think about this and write us this letter tells me
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: that you're already a good friend, right? It's always the
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: people who are concerned about being the good parent or
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: the good friend. It's like, okay, you're already, you already
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: get an A in that, in that category. we began
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: this conversation thinking about the little girl, Donna, watching the
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: Olympics and at school, you know, representing and running that,
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: was it 55 meters? And what would the Donna, what
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: would you say to that young Donna now from the
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: vantage point of now? What advice would you give her
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: since we're on the advice track right now? What advice
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: would you give her yourself and other young women who
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: are looking ahead and having big dreams?
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: It's really easy.
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: It would be to always believe in yourself. It's really simple.
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: Everyone has a talent. No matter what it is, it
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: could be knitting, it could be cooking, it could be whatever.
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: Build on those strengths and always believe in yourself.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: And how do we do that, Donna? Like when you
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: think about the things in your life that have contributed
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: to your ability to, you know, because most of us
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: sadly don't really start, or maybe we begin believing in
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: ourselves and then we lose it along the way for
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: any number of reasons. When you found yourself at moments
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: where you realized you needed to grow, when it came
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: to that, you know, the self-belief, What tools have you
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: drawn upon or what wisdom have you drawn upon to
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: get that, to gain that sense of believing in yourself?
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: A lot of self-awareness.
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: It's always easy to have negative thoughts than it is
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: to have positive thoughts. And I think as I've gotten older,
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: I'm more self-aware of what I'm able to do from
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: what I'm not able to do. But at the same time,
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: in order to grow, sometimes you have to push those boundaries.
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: And again, that's where that athlete mindset comes in. You
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: can't keep doing the same thing in training anymore. and
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: expect to get quicker. You have to keep pushing those boundaries.
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: And it's just the same in life. So in terms
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: of career progression, you have this ultimate job that you
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: want to get to. Well, keep doing the same thing
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: over and over again. You're not going to progress. You
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: have to work at certain things. And we all do
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: SWOT analysis on ourselves on a daily basis.
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: What are our strengths?
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: What are our weaknesses, our threats, our opportunities? But we
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: tend to forget about our strengths. We think, oh, the
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: strengths are okay. Still work on those. They're your superpower.
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: Don't forget them either. And we don't do that enough.
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: We'll always focus on the negative bits, the weaknesses.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: Oh, we've got to work on our weaknesses.
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: Well, actually play to your strengths and still hold on
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: to those because those are the things that will elevate
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: you forward.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: I love that. I love that. And I think that that's,
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: you know... and I don't want to generalize, but I
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: will say, I think for a lot of women, um,
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: we are taught not to do that. Like, because it
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: can seem braggy to be like, you know what? I'm
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: actually good at this. Um, so I'm a writer. That's,
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: that's my profession. And I, I have a good writer
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: friend who's a, who's, she's a well-known writer. I won't
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: name her, but We were talking and she said in
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: front of this group of people, she just said, yeah,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: I'm a really good writer. And I was so taken aback.
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: She is a really good writer and everyone in the
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: world would agree with me. And yet for her to
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: say that, to claim it, I found it really, at first,
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: like I said, it jolted me. And then I thought,
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: I'm going to try that. And that is about playing
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: to your strengths. And I think maybe owning what you've earned.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: And saying, you know, I'm actually like the fourth fastest
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: person in the world as I ran this 400 meters
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: just now, right? And to claim that. It can be
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: hard to do as a girl or a woman.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: It so can. But practice makes perfect.
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: And the more you do it, the more comfortable you
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: will become in saying it. But it also gives you
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: the confidence because when you hear and say that out loud,
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: your confidence levels, it just oozes.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: And then you have that presence in the room.
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: If you're going into a boardroom, whatever it is, just
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: you almost puff your chest up almost. Yes, I am
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: good at what I do and.
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: No one can stand in my way. So that self-talk
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: in the back of your mind.
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: You may be still a bit nervous deep down, but
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: that will overpower it because it will then become the norm.
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: It will become you and you'll get used to it
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: very much so. But you're so spot on there. You know,
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: us as women, we do have a lot of self-doubt
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: of our own ability and what we can and cannot do.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: And I don't know how. That's our makeup for some reason.
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: But the more women that are open, like your author
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: friend there saying, I am a good writer. We can
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: learn so much for those individuals because it empowers us
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: as well. I think actually, yeah, I am a good cook. Yes,
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: I am a good runner. Yes, I, you know, maybe
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: I'm not a good marathon runner, but, you know, jokes aside. But,
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: you know, once you say it out loud, you start
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: believing in that and that really oozes a lot of
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: confidence as well.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, it's been a delight to talk
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: to you, Donna. I want to close with one question
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: I'd love to often ask my guests. What's the next
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: mountain you have to climb? It could be a literal
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: mountain or a metaphorical one. What's the next challenge you're facing?
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: The next challenge I'm facing? Well, I guess because... Well,
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: it's my birthday in a few weeks time. And I
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: do remember saying many years ago, by the time I'm 55,
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: I am going to be retired in a hammock in
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: the Caribbean somewhere. So that's not quite happened. And I've
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: got a year to do that. So that is definitely
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: the next.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: Mountain I need to climb to achieve that.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: I love that your mountain is going to end in
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: a hammock in a beautiful tropical place. I'm going to
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: join you in that. That sounds good to me, girl.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. It's been a delight to talk
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: to you, Donna.
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: enjoyed it.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. If you'd like to write to me
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: seeking advice, email me at deardearsugar at gmail.com. And don't
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: Happy trails, and I'll see you next week. Mind Over
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: Mountain with Cheryl Strayed is an iHeart Women's Sports production
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: produced by Brittany Brown and Rodney Brown of Barbara Jean Productions.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: Supervising producer is Kaylin West at Realm. Associate producer, Amaya Brathwaite.
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Molly Barton, Jerry Carita, Grace Fuse,
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: and Jessie Katz. Our theme song is composed by Gramascope Music.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: your podcasts. Happy trails, and I'll see you next week.