Latest / The Becket Cook Show / Piers Morgan Tears Into Him For Leaving Gay Lifestyle: Dr. Mike Davidson Testimony

Transcript

Piers Morgan Tears Into Him For Leaving Gay Lifestyle: Dr. Mike Davidson Testimony · The Becket Cook Show

0:02
Speaker 1: Life Audio.
0:09
Speaker 2: You are listening to The Beckett Cook Show with your
0:11
Speaker 2: host Beckett Cook. For more information about Beckett and his ministry,
0:16
Speaker 2: visit his website at Beckettcook dot com. To help support
0:21
Speaker 2: the podcast, visit Patreon dot com slash the Beckett Cook Show.
0:26
Speaker 2: Please consider subscribing to the podcast and leaving a five
0:30
Speaker 2: star rating.
0:38
Speaker 3: Hey guys, welcome to the show today. I have a
0:40
Speaker 3: special guest, doctor Michael Davidson. He has an amazing story.
0:45
Speaker 3: He's coming to us from the UK and he was
0:48
Speaker 3: same sex attracted but then ended up getting married to
0:51
Speaker 3: a woman and had two kids. He later got a
0:55
Speaker 3: degree in psychotherapy to help people with this with same
1:00
Speaker 3: sex attraction and he appeared on the BBC in Piers
1:04
Speaker 3: Morgan and was basically canceled in the UK completely. And
1:09
Speaker 3: so we're going to talk about that and also what
1:12
Speaker 3: he's doing now and how he's helping tons of people
1:15
Speaker 3: in the UK. But first award from our sponsor, Please
1:19
Speaker 3: welcome doctor Michael Davidson.
1:21
Speaker 1: Thank you, Beckett. Very good to meet you. We've always
1:25
Speaker 1: enjoyed your work.
1:26
Speaker 3: Oh good, I'm glad it's good to meet you. And
1:29
Speaker 3: you are in Belfast right now. And what before we
1:35
Speaker 3: get to Belfast. How Okay, So you were born in Zambia,
1:39
Speaker 3: raised in Zimbabwe, and then you spent some time in
1:43
Speaker 3: New Zealand. So what's going on? Where were your parents' missionaries? Like,
1:48
Speaker 3: what's happening?
1:50
Speaker 1: No, My my mother was from Yorkshire and after World
1:55
Speaker 1: War Two went out to Africa. I think she was
1:59
Speaker 1: looking for a different from kind of life and that's
2:02
Speaker 1: where she met my father, who was coming out of
2:06
Speaker 1: the army. He'd been in Italy during the war, and
2:11
Speaker 1: they married in Northern Rhodesia and that's where I was born,
2:16
Speaker 1: just near Victoria Falls. Later on they emigrated to Southern
2:22
Speaker 1: Rhodesia as it was then but now Zimbabwe, and that's
2:26
Speaker 1: where I did most of my schooling. Then they emigrated
2:30
Speaker 1: to New Zealand in the sixties and I stayed in
2:35
Speaker 1: New Zealand with them for a while, went to school there.
2:40
Speaker 1: Then they decided they missed Africa too much, so they
2:44
Speaker 1: went back. I can go on.
2:48
Speaker 3: And then and so okay, so what is your accent?
2:51
Speaker 3: Because your accents kind of sounds Kiwi, but it also
2:55
Speaker 3: sounds sort of South African, but it also sounds British.
2:58
Speaker 3: So where what is your accent.
3:01
Speaker 1: Confused, I would, that's right. I mean, I've lived in
3:07
Speaker 1: New Zealand, and I actually went to college in Nashville,
3:12
Speaker 1: Tennessee and Kansas City, Missouri for a while. I married
3:18
Speaker 1: as South African and I live in Ireland. So your
3:22
Speaker 1: guest is mine.
3:25
Speaker 3: Well, it's a great belange. It's a great belange. So
3:29
Speaker 3: what was it like growing up in Africa? Did you
3:32
Speaker 3: enjoy that or was it what did you feel about that?
3:36
Speaker 1: Well? I loved Africa, and I you know, I loved
3:41
Speaker 1: the warmth of the sun. But all the children's books
3:46
Speaker 1: that I read and all the things that interested me
3:50
Speaker 1: came from overseas. So I had this kind of UK
3:54
Speaker 1: orientation in terms of everything that I read. So I
3:59
Speaker 1: guess there was a natural gravitation towards the UK. My
4:06
Speaker 1: father's parents were from Scotland and from Ireland, and my
4:11
Speaker 1: mother's parents were from Yorkshire, so there there's always been
4:14
Speaker 1: that orientation. And I note when I did my you know,
4:20
Speaker 1: heritage genealogy thing, that that indeed is where everything is based.
4:28
Speaker 3: And so when you were growing up, would you visit
4:30
Speaker 3: the UK as a child.
4:33
Speaker 1: No, but you know you didn't travel as much then
4:39
Speaker 1: if you were you know, going to emigrate that kind
4:42
Speaker 1: of thing. Well, we certainly didn't have the resources to
4:44
Speaker 1: do that, but I was in touch with grandparents and
4:47
Speaker 1: aunts and uncles, so there was just a lot of
4:51
Speaker 1: interest and basic gravitation towards UK culture, I would say.
4:57
Speaker 3: And when you first what was how old are you
4:59
Speaker 3: were when you first went to the UK.
5:02
Speaker 1: Oh, I think it was on my way to study
5:05
Speaker 1: in the States for the first time that so that
5:08
Speaker 1: would have been I guess in the early seventies. That
5:15
Speaker 1: was the first time. I wondered, Well, I think I
5:17
Speaker 1: was there as a baby, but obviously I don't remember that.
5:22
Speaker 3: And what did you think about it when you saw
5:24
Speaker 3: it as an adult?
5:27
Speaker 1: Well, I'd always been told how green England is, and
5:30
Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember they had the most
5:33
Speaker 1: horrendous drought in the seventies around seventies, I'm not mistaken.
5:38
Speaker 1: So when I was coming into land at Heathrow, I
5:43
Speaker 1: could not reconcile what I'd been told about this place
5:46
Speaker 1: and what I was seeing. There were two completely different things.
5:50
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm sure. Okay, So you say that when you
5:54
Speaker 3: were eighteen and tell us how this happened. You had
5:58
Speaker 3: a very dramatic life changing conversion to Christianity. What were
6:03
Speaker 3: your parents Christians? How did this happen?
6:06
Speaker 1: My mother had been converted and I'd seen the changes
6:12
Speaker 1: that had come into her life. But I was also
6:15
Speaker 1: influenced by a Canadian teacher in my high school, and
6:22
Speaker 1: I had joined the what we call the Scripture Union,
6:26
Speaker 1: which is a Christian club, and at some point I
6:32
Speaker 1: had been invited to go to a kind of weekend
6:35
Speaker 1: retreat and I went and one of the speakers there
6:41
Speaker 1: was Nigel Goodwin, which maybe doesn't mean anything to your viewers,
6:46
Speaker 1: but he starred with Cliff Richard in a film called
6:51
Speaker 1: Two a Penny. Cliff Richard had by that time come
6:57
Speaker 1: out as a Christian, and Goodwin similarly had a Christian testimony,
7:03
Speaker 1: and at this camp he, I don't know, there was
7:08
Speaker 1: something really different about him. He did actually speak a
7:13
Speaker 1: bit about homosexuality, which kind of terrified me because at
7:18
Speaker 1: that time I knew there was something going on in
7:21
Speaker 1: my life. But at the end of the camp, to
7:25
Speaker 1: cut a long story short, in a very kind of
7:28
Speaker 1: typically dutiful way, I went to say goodbye and thank
7:33
Speaker 1: you very much for having me. And when I did that,
7:37
Speaker 1: he hugged me, and this just flawed me. I don't
7:46
Speaker 1: think I had ever experienced that in my life before.
7:51
Speaker 1: There was a you know, there was just a genuine
7:55
Speaker 1: connection that he made. I think probably the only connection
7:59
Speaker 1: that I'm made with him, because I was just too
8:02
Speaker 1: shy to speak to him during the whole time. But
8:06
Speaker 1: that profoundly affected me. And not long after that, I
8:11
Speaker 1: went home and I was outside and looking up at
8:16
Speaker 1: the sky, and I don't know what happened, but the
8:20
Speaker 1: Lord very definitely came into my life in a remarkable way,
8:27
Speaker 1: in the sense that I just knew things would never
8:31
Speaker 1: be the same again, and I felt so clean and
8:37
Speaker 1: so renewed and so different, and I carried on in
8:43
Speaker 1: that way, I think for months and months.
8:50
Speaker 3: What was your The reaction of your parents.
8:54
Speaker 1: Well, they, you know, they definitely saw that there was
8:58
Speaker 1: something going on in my life. I don't think I
9:02
Speaker 1: was ever a very extroverted person, but there was a
9:07
Speaker 1: quiet change in my life and a focus that turned
9:13
Speaker 1: towards the Lord that certainly my mother noticed. I'm not
9:17
Speaker 1: sure my father had a lot to say about it,
9:19
Speaker 1: but they were supportive. Both of them were supportive of
9:23
Speaker 1: what was happening to me. I just seemed to find
9:26
Speaker 1: myself in a completely new way that I hadn't experienced before.
9:33
Speaker 3: And so did you get involved with a church right
9:37
Speaker 3: away or what happened with that?
9:39
Speaker 1: Well? I grew up in the Church of England or
9:43
Speaker 1: Church of the Province as it was known. So I
9:46
Speaker 1: was an altar boy and a choir boy. I was
9:49
Speaker 1: head choir boy, all of those things, and I was
9:52
Speaker 1: around Christianity a lot. I saw the change in my
9:56
Speaker 1: mother that kind of encouraged me to go in that direction.
10:01
Speaker 1: I went to Scripture Union, but that conversion experience was
10:05
Speaker 1: something I had never had before. So that now radically
10:13
Speaker 1: took hold of my life and really did become the
10:17
Speaker 1: center of who I was. Eventually, I would, you know,
10:23
Speaker 1: sense a call to serve the Lord and did go
10:29
Speaker 1: towards pastoral ministry and preparation in that direction.
10:35
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after this short break. And so
10:39
Speaker 3: you say that you dealt with same sex attraction, When
10:44
Speaker 3: did that start in your life?
10:49
Speaker 1: I remember on our way to New Zealand recognizing that
10:55
Speaker 1: I had attractions to to men, basically to older men,
11:04
Speaker 1: and I guess I just felt curious about it. I
11:13
Speaker 1: didn't rarely understand it. I didn't know what to do
11:17
Speaker 1: with it.
11:17
Speaker 3: How old were you?
11:20
Speaker 1: I would have been nine or ten. But I have
11:23
Speaker 1: to say there were many instances where I was attracted
11:27
Speaker 1: to girls and reached out to girls. It wasn't that
11:31
Speaker 1: I had no attraction to the opposite sex. I definitely did.
11:37
Speaker 1: But it's like there was just this side of me
11:41
Speaker 1: that was demanding more attention as I was going on,
11:47
Speaker 1: and that I began to recognize as a reality, even
11:50
Speaker 1: though I, frankly I didn't have the vocabulary or the
11:55
Speaker 1: perspective to be able to articulate exactly what it was.
12:01
Speaker 3: By the way, you mentioned the speaker that hugged you,
12:06
Speaker 3: the guy who hugued you, Why did he because that
12:08
Speaker 3: was such a What year was that when that happened.
12:15
Speaker 1: So I would have been about sixteen or seventeen seventeen probably,
12:23
Speaker 1: and it was just before my conversion, so it was
12:27
Speaker 1: in my last years of high school.
12:31
Speaker 3: So was it in the seventies, Yeah, because it seems
12:36
Speaker 3: odd that he would In the seventies people really didn't
12:38
Speaker 3: talk about homosexuality. Because you mentioned that he mentioned homosexuality
12:43
Speaker 3: in some way. Why did he do that?
12:46
Speaker 1: He showed a film and I can't remember, you know
12:49
Speaker 1: what it was. Isn't this amazing that I only remember
12:52
Speaker 1: this now? He had been involved in the Billy Graham
12:57
Speaker 1: campaign and he was showing a film of one of
13:00
Speaker 1: Billy Graham's campaigns in London, and the cameras focused on
13:07
Speaker 1: two I guess, transgender folk who were you know, dressed
13:12
Speaker 1: in female clothing. And as the camera's focused on this
13:19
Speaker 1: in his documentary, I remember him saying and something about
13:25
Speaker 1: and of course our friends were also there and he
13:29
Speaker 1: was you know, it wasn't being unkind in any way.
13:34
Speaker 1: He was just offering commentary on what we were seeing.
13:38
Speaker 3: And it's wow, okay. So and then it's interesting you
13:43
Speaker 3: say that about when you were nine years old you
13:46
Speaker 3: started to feel this attraction towards older men. But because
13:51
Speaker 3: the same thing happened with me, I was attracted to
13:53
Speaker 3: women when I was a young boy. My first attractions
13:58
Speaker 3: were to women. But then somehow, and of course, if
14:02
Speaker 3: you know my story, I was molested when I was nine,
14:05
Speaker 3: so that might have something to do with it. But
14:10
Speaker 3: then through a series of events, it shifted towards men.
14:16
Speaker 3: But as you said, it was kind of like you said,
14:19
Speaker 3: it was like dominant. I think you use that word,
14:23
Speaker 3: but it was weird because in my life it was dominant,
14:27
Speaker 3: that attraction towards the same sex was dominant. But I
14:34
Speaker 3: remember in high school, you know, I dated three girls serious.
14:39
Speaker 3: I went, you know, we went steady, We dated seriously,
14:44
Speaker 3: and I remember enjoying dating them a lot like I
14:50
Speaker 3: enjoyed kissing them. I mean, it was like it was
14:53
Speaker 3: a strange dichotomy of like, on the one hand, I
14:58
Speaker 3: was attracted to the girls, but on the other I
15:02
Speaker 3: was attracted I was confusing anyway, So how did you
15:08
Speaker 3: deal with this same sex attraction once you were converted
15:12
Speaker 3: at eighteen? How did you handle this?
15:17
Speaker 1: Well, the first thing I would have to say is
15:19
Speaker 1: I was bitterly disappointed that after this very high I
15:25
Speaker 1: guess emotional experience that came with conversion, I then the
15:32
Speaker 1: penny dropped that actually I was, I was still attracted
15:38
Speaker 1: in this way, and I was therefore somewhat disappointed to
15:43
Speaker 1: the point where I said, well, you know, maybe I
15:48
Speaker 1: wasn't really converted, because my understanding was that this this
15:55
Speaker 1: should have gone, and so I was. I was disappointed
16:00
Speaker 1: about that, and I think there was even a sense
16:04
Speaker 1: of depression that began to be in my mind because
16:11
Speaker 1: I felt like a failure then, but I was determined
16:16
Speaker 1: to serve the Lord and confident that he had called
16:20
Speaker 1: me and that he would go before me. You know
16:25
Speaker 1: what you said earlier on kind of triggers something in me,
16:28
Speaker 1: because I began to be aware of some instances in
16:34
Speaker 1: my childhood that I think really did influence me. One
16:38
Speaker 1: of which was my sister and I visiting a farm
16:45
Speaker 1: in the country and my parents weren't there. They allowed
16:49
Speaker 1: us to stay with this family, and this family had
16:52
Speaker 1: a completely different attitude in terms of nudity. This kind
17:00
Speaker 1: of showed itself in different ways, and I remember that
17:06
Speaker 1: that marked me, and that was probably one of the
17:13
Speaker 1: earliest things that then connected with other things. And I
17:18
Speaker 1: think that's what happens. There's like a template that begins
17:23
Speaker 1: to develop, and certain random experiences seemed to connect, and
17:28
Speaker 1: before you know where you are. You know, you're seeing
17:32
Speaker 1: different possibilities and ideas that maybe wouldn't have been there
17:36
Speaker 1: if you hadn't been exposed in the way you were.
17:40
Speaker 3: And were your parents aware of your struggles, No, even
17:47
Speaker 3: after you were converted to Christianity, where they were they aware?
17:53
Speaker 1: No? Because I was never open about any of it.
17:56
Speaker 1: I mean, these were the days when you know, was
18:00
Speaker 1: not even a word really again something completely different. So no,
18:08
Speaker 1: I mean the last thing I would ever have done
18:13
Speaker 1: is spoken about this issue, especially in a church context.
18:19
Speaker 1: You know, what began to happen with me was every
18:22
Speaker 1: time anybody came anywhere near Romans chapter one, I would
18:27
Speaker 1: be under the pew. I would feel so convicted and
18:31
Speaker 1: so hopeless, and so, you know, beyond help or redemption.
18:38
Speaker 1: I really struggled in that way and never shared it
18:43
Speaker 1: with anyone, actually until I met my wife, and you know,
18:51
Speaker 1: we had to be honest about some things, and I
18:55
Speaker 1: was honest with her. But maybe one other person before.
19:00
Speaker 3: You should you should have skipped to first Corinthian six
19:03
Speaker 3: where it says but such were some of you, But
19:05
Speaker 3: you were awash, you were sanctified, You were you know,
19:08
Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera. So so, okay, you mentioned your wife.
19:13
Speaker 3: How did this happen? How so you got converted at eighteen?
19:18
Speaker 3: You are struggling with this issue, you know that you're
19:22
Speaker 3: kind of disappointed, and then when do you meet your wife?
19:27
Speaker 1: Well, I went to Bible College because by that time
19:31
Speaker 1: I believed the call of the Lord was on my
19:34
Speaker 1: life and that he wanted me to prepare for pastoral ministry.
19:39
Speaker 1: So I went to Bible College, got involved in a
19:42
Speaker 1: local church, and she was there. She had a beautiful
19:47
Speaker 1: singing voice, and I also liked to sing, but I
19:51
Speaker 1: kind of thought, you know, compared to her, I wouldn't
19:57
Speaker 1: give up the day job kind of thing. So so
20:00
Speaker 1: that relationship grew and there was no other thought, Beckett,
20:08
Speaker 1: I was going to be a pastor. I needed to
20:10
Speaker 1: be married. I wanted to have children, and that's what
20:16
Speaker 1: I was going to do. And when I started to
20:21
Speaker 1: go in that direction, then of course there were things
20:25
Speaker 1: I had to deal with and Lena and I had to,
20:31
Speaker 1: you know, speak things through very candidly and talk about
20:36
Speaker 1: how things had been in our lives. And it was
20:40
Speaker 1: at that point that all of that came out.
20:44
Speaker 3: And how old were you when you got married?
20:47
Speaker 1: I was twenty four.
20:49
Speaker 3: And was this in New Zealand or some other country.
20:52
Speaker 1: That was in South Africa, because that's where I, you know,
20:56
Speaker 1: my parents came back from Zimbabwe. I finished high from
21:01
Speaker 1: New Zealand, I Biga Pardon and I finished high school
21:04
Speaker 1: in Zimbabwe. We then went down to South Africa, which
21:08
Speaker 1: was a real culture shock.
21:10
Speaker 4: I have to say, okay, so and then you have
21:18
Speaker 4: two kids, right, yes, so how how did that affect
21:23
Speaker 4: you in terms of.
21:26
Speaker 3: The struggle of what you like? Did that that just
21:29
Speaker 3: kind of alleviate a lot of that struggle? Having kids?
21:33
Speaker 1: Well, it certainly filled my my days. But you know,
21:38
Speaker 1: we have a fantasy life and we have desires. All
21:44
Speaker 1: of us probably have desires we have to keep in check.
21:49
Speaker 1: So as far as I was concerned, this was something
21:52
Speaker 1: I you know, I could never I could never go there.
21:56
Speaker 1: I could only make sure that that didn't get a
22:03
Speaker 1: hold of my life. But as we all know, white
22:07
Speaker 1: knuckling these things is not the answer, and I had
22:13
Speaker 1: to find a different answer. And it was really only
22:17
Speaker 1: when we as a family emigrated to the UK, and
22:24
Speaker 1: I guess the pressure was really on because you know,
22:28
Speaker 1: emigration is not for the faint hearted as far as
22:32
Speaker 1: I'm concerned, especially when you have the responsibility of two children.
22:39
Speaker 1: So there was a lot of pressure on me. I
22:41
Speaker 1: had a high powered or high pressure job in the
22:45
Speaker 1: university system in the UK. It wasn't easy to kind
22:50
Speaker 1: of slide into that context. And I realized, okay, temptations
22:58
Speaker 1: in my life are at a level that I really
23:01
Speaker 1: need to get some help about this. And that's what
23:06
Speaker 1: pushed me into seeking help at that time.
23:10
Speaker 3: And you say that when you first in the UK,
23:14
Speaker 3: when you first shared your struggles, when in the UK,
23:20
Speaker 3: they the pastor thanked the pastor thanked you, but asked
23:25
Speaker 3: you not to tell others. Is that what happened?
23:29
Speaker 1: Yeah? I went and I started talking to an organization
23:33
Speaker 1: and I think in many ways they helped me. And
23:38
Speaker 1: it was like there was a kind of integration within
23:43
Speaker 1: myself that now I was recognizing that this was an
23:48
Speaker 1: issue in my life. Whereas before I'd kind of pushed
23:51
Speaker 1: it away and never dealt it, dealt with it. Now
23:55
Speaker 1: I saw that it was a reality and it was
24:00
Speaker 1: something I needed to recognize and work with and deal
24:05
Speaker 1: with it. I'd come that far now for me. You know,
24:10
Speaker 1: that reflected honesty, and I felt there was some there
24:16
Speaker 1: was greater integrity in my life when I had that recognition.
24:22
Speaker 1: And I thought the church would rejoice that naively, but
24:32
Speaker 1: I think actually what happened was the church was afraid
24:37
Speaker 1: of that. And the pastor said to me, well, thank
24:42
Speaker 1: you so much for sharing. You're so brave, but please
24:45
Speaker 1: don't tell anybody else. Oh God, I was flawed. I
24:54
Speaker 1: could not understand what he was saying. And you know,
24:59
Speaker 1: I don't have a big I'm not angry with that fact.
25:05
Speaker 1: That was just his reaction, but it did crush me
25:08
Speaker 1: and it pushed me right back where I was, and
25:13
Speaker 1: in fact, I felt so angry that obviously I had
25:18
Speaker 1: to work through that as well. And I think that's
25:23
Speaker 1: one of the things that made me determined to deal
25:27
Speaker 1: with this, because I've I felt a bit let down
25:32
Speaker 1: at that time.
25:36
Speaker 3: It's funny because I just had a guest on who
25:39
Speaker 3: experienced the same thing, Tia, you know her. And it's
25:44
Speaker 3: funny because when I got saved at my church in
25:49
Speaker 3: two thousand and nine, it was the opposite reaction. Everyone
25:53
Speaker 3: was celebrating, like the pastor, everyone was excited for me.
25:57
Speaker 3: They all knew like, so, it's it's it's sad to
26:01
Speaker 3: me that that happened to you, Antitya. So what so
26:11
Speaker 3: you start? You started seeking professional counseling and how did
26:16
Speaker 3: that help you?
26:20
Speaker 1: I think what happened was those counselors came across to
26:30
Speaker 1: me as being very, very present what I had experienced
26:40
Speaker 1: with Nigel Goodwin in that hug was a different kind
26:46
Speaker 1: of masculinity and male. There was a sensitivity and a
26:53
Speaker 1: godliness and with the counselors that that salience, that connection
27:02
Speaker 1: was there, and I think in my case that is
27:06
Speaker 1: what made the difference. I could connect with these individuals,
27:10
Speaker 1: and I'm sure in a sense, I was drawn to
27:16
Speaker 1: the emotional security that that represented and I felt I
27:25
Speaker 1: just felt held and I felt as though I could
27:28
Speaker 1: be honest, and I felt I was I could be safe,
27:33
Speaker 1: and that they understood where I was coming from. They
27:36
Speaker 1: gave that impression, you know, they were welcoming enough that
27:41
Speaker 1: I felt that this was the right place for me
27:44
Speaker 1: to be.
27:46
Speaker 3: And how long did this go on?
27:50
Speaker 1: A period of three years, there were you know, different psychotherapists.
27:58
Speaker 1: The first one went back to Iceland, so he went.
28:03
Speaker 1: I was sorry to see that. And I had another
28:05
Speaker 1: one and he was pretty good. And then I had
28:09
Speaker 1: a Freudian, which was a completely different kind of experience
28:14
Speaker 1: because there was not the emotional connection that I felt
28:20
Speaker 1: with the other two. It was kind of a distance thing.
28:23
Speaker 1: So it taught me, you know, it's not just anybody
28:28
Speaker 1: who can do this. You have to be comfortable with
28:32
Speaker 1: the approach and the background and the person you're dealing with.
28:37
Speaker 1: And that's not to say that Freudian didn't help me.
28:39
Speaker 1: I'm sure he did. He helped me in a different way.
28:43
Speaker 1: But I guess all three of them provided a safe
28:48
Speaker 1: context that I felt nourished in and I was drawn
28:52
Speaker 1: back to. And because of that, I felt I could
28:58
Speaker 1: really respect, you know, the work that was being done
29:02
Speaker 1: in those contexts.
29:04
Speaker 3: And so and then you went, did you go on
29:06
Speaker 3: to become you? Because you went on to train for
29:10
Speaker 3: three years in psychotherapy, So you went, did you become
29:13
Speaker 3: a psychotherapist?
29:16
Speaker 1: So part of my you know, exploration in therapy was
29:24
Speaker 1: connecting with psychodrama. And if you know what psychodrama is,
29:29
Speaker 1: it's it's essentially working in action rather than just talking therapy.
29:38
Speaker 1: It's it's learning how to put yourself in a role
29:43
Speaker 1: context and in that context you can do a lot
29:48
Speaker 1: of other things. And it felt very helpful to me.
29:54
Speaker 1: And so I was drawn to psychodrama psychotherapy and decided, Okay,
30:00
Speaker 1: this has really helped me. Now I will want to
30:03
Speaker 1: know more about this. So I began training part time
30:06
Speaker 1: because I had a full time job still in the
30:10
Speaker 1: university sector. So I began part time training traveled over
30:14
Speaker 1: to England from Ireland and did that for three years.
30:19
Speaker 1: And then about that time the professional organization started to
30:26
Speaker 1: make an issue of the whole idea of I guess
30:32
Speaker 1: change allowing therapy.
30:34
Speaker 3: Or like conversion what they would call conversion therapy, kind.
30:37
Speaker 1: Of conversion therapy, and so I was having none of this,
30:45
Speaker 1: and I decided to raise it with my trainers because
30:50
Speaker 1: I could see, you know, I was heading in the
30:53
Speaker 1: wrong direction in terms of what they were saying. They
30:58
Speaker 1: were saying that it was an ethical effects to help
31:02
Speaker 1: anybody in these circumstances, and that was the whole reason
31:08
Speaker 1: why I was training. I wanted to be there for
31:13
Speaker 1: people who wanted to work in this area. So I
31:17
Speaker 1: raised it with the trainers. They, I think they were
31:22
Speaker 1: very nervous about accreditation for what they were building. So
31:28
Speaker 1: it led to direct conversations with the United Kingdom Council
31:35
Speaker 1: for Psychotherapy. The chairman was a gay man who clearly
31:43
Speaker 1: had a political agenda. About that time, I was being
31:48
Speaker 1: interviewed on the BBC in terms of my own story
31:52
Speaker 1: and the work I was doing in the community. Before
31:56
Speaker 1: I left the studio, I got a message to say
31:59
Speaker 1: that I was spended because I had. They had kind
32:04
Speaker 1: of put me on the spot and asked me who
32:07
Speaker 1: my professional body was. So I told them wow, And
32:13
Speaker 1: before I left the studio I was told that I
32:16
Speaker 1: was suspended and a week later that was confirmed and that,
32:23
Speaker 1: you know, that just that was devastating. Actually, I was
32:28
Speaker 1: three years into my studies. They basically prevented me from
32:34
Speaker 1: returning to my my studies and refused that I should
32:41
Speaker 1: be allowed to continue because I would not support what
32:46
Speaker 1: the professional body was saying in this area.
32:49
Speaker 3: So that's crazy. And you well, I saw a clip
32:54
Speaker 3: of you on Piers Morgan, Piers Morgan was interviewing you
32:57
Speaker 3: on ITV. Was that that wasn't the same interview?
33:01
Speaker 1: No, No, that was years later. That was you know,
33:05
Speaker 1: by that time, I thought, well, you know, I'm just
33:09
Speaker 1: going to be what I what I am, and I'm
33:13
Speaker 1: going to talk about the issues. And that kind of
33:18
Speaker 1: pushed me into this place where when they wanted to
33:24
Speaker 1: talk about this issue, they would call me. And that's
33:28
Speaker 1: what happened. In that particular interview that you are referring
33:32
Speaker 1: to with Piers Morgan, that was the most complained about
33:37
Speaker 1: interview in the UK in that year. We have a.
33:45
Speaker 3: It was complained about because of what you were saying.
33:49
Speaker 1: It was I think it was probably fifty to fifty.
33:52
Speaker 1: Half of the complaints were that I had been given,
33:56
Speaker 1: you know, this platform to say that what I was saying,
34:00
Speaker 1: and the other half was how you know Peas chose
34:05
Speaker 1: to interview me.
34:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean if if, maybe we'll put a link below,
34:10
Speaker 3: But I mean he in the interview, he is so aggressive.
34:15
Speaker 3: It's insane how how he interviews you. I hope he's
34:20
Speaker 3: repented of that and apologize to you, because it's it's
34:23
Speaker 3: it was just so out. It was beyond the pale,
34:27
Speaker 3: like the what what the way he was interrogating you
34:30
Speaker 3: and he wouldn't even let you speak, no.
34:33
Speaker 1: So, but I spoke anyway, you did, good for you,
34:40
Speaker 1: Good on you.
34:41
Speaker 3: So and then they this, uh what is it the
34:48
Speaker 3: memorandum of understanding on conversion therapy. They told you that
34:54
Speaker 3: you could not returned unless you change your beliefs.
34:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know, once I had been thrown out
35:02
Speaker 1: of the British Psychodrama Association, of course I appealed that,
35:07
Speaker 1: but they upheld the complaint against me. But they said
35:13
Speaker 1: I could return if I changed my beliefs, and of
35:19
Speaker 1: course I couldn't do that. There's no way I could.
35:24
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure there were many lessons I could learn.
35:30
Speaker 1: I think what really frustrated me was they would not
35:38
Speaker 1: into any discussion that I had. So obviously I defended
35:43
Speaker 1: myself put everything together that I knew to put together,
35:51
Speaker 1: but they didn't right back saying, look, your research is
35:56
Speaker 1: flawed or your perspective is unbalance. You know, they just
36:02
Speaker 1: ignored it. And I I had by that time become
36:09
Speaker 1: I mean, my PhD thesis was basically about the whole
36:14
Speaker 1: idea of indoctrination and you know, the dangers of not
36:22
Speaker 1: allowing minority Christian voices to be heard. So this was
36:32
Speaker 1: very challenging for me, and it just kind of pushed
36:37
Speaker 1: me into trying to find defenses for, you know, the
36:43
Speaker 1: right and freedom of people to choose the direction that
36:46
Speaker 1: they want to go in, not to criticize anybody else
36:51
Speaker 1: who had a different point of view. It was at
36:54
Speaker 1: that time that the UK put together what we call
36:57
Speaker 1: the Memorandum of Understanding on conversion therapy, and I had
37:02
Speaker 1: applied by that time, I had you formed an organization
37:08
Speaker 1: that began to have some recognition in the country. I'd
37:12
Speaker 1: applied on the organization's behalf to participate in discussion, and
37:20
Speaker 1: I have the letter from the minister associated with that,
37:25
Speaker 1: This Minister of State who you know, basically told me
37:29
Speaker 1: my views were too extreme. I couldn't be a part
37:32
Speaker 1: of it. So they only had people who agreed with them.
37:37
Speaker 1: And this is the kind of thing that just I
37:41
Speaker 1: think is very disturbing in the whole history of this process.
37:46
Speaker 1: So they put this document together. They know it's not
37:50
Speaker 1: a scientific document. I think it has three quotations from
37:56
Speaker 1: the American literature, not even based on anything in the UK.
38:02
Speaker 1: And this document has become what we refer to as
38:06
Speaker 1: the de facto ban on conversion therapy in the UK.
38:10
Speaker 1: So all the mental health bodies are signed up to
38:16
Speaker 1: a document that is ideological. It's a consensus document that
38:22
Speaker 1: everybody agrees to, but there is no science attached to it,
38:28
Speaker 1: and it's one point of view that is being held to.
38:34
Speaker 1: And I think that's what has rarely exercised me. That
38:38
Speaker 1: we talk about equality and we talk about pluralism, but
38:46
Speaker 1: there is no pluralism. There is. The whole thing depends
38:52
Speaker 1: on whether or not you support state owned ideology, and
38:57
Speaker 1: if you do, you're fine. You're home in a boat,
39:01
Speaker 1: as the Irish would say. But if you don't support that,
39:06
Speaker 1: you've had it. You will be canceled and you will
39:09
Speaker 1: be excluded, And that is exactly what we are seeing
39:13
Speaker 1: increasingly in the UK.
39:16
Speaker 3: Well, what's ironic about all of this, of course, is
39:20
Speaker 3: the whole LGBTQ plus ideology says that gender is fluid.
39:26
Speaker 3: You can change your sexuality from one day to the next.
39:29
Speaker 3: You can be two spirit, you could be you know,
39:33
Speaker 3: all kinds of things you can change and go back
39:35
Speaker 3: and forth. But somehow seeking out help to with with
39:43
Speaker 3: to deal with same sex struggles or same sex attraction
39:46
Speaker 3: or trauma from that is banned. It just seems like
39:51
Speaker 3: so it's the so absurd.
39:55
Speaker 1: Well, exactly, you can go one way, but you can't
39:57
Speaker 1: go the other. Yeah, and either So we know that
40:01
Speaker 1: the majority of people who or the probably the largest
40:09
Speaker 1: group of people are mixed attracted. There's a huge number
40:17
Speaker 1: of people who are mixed attracted. Are we really saying
40:24
Speaker 1: that they can only go in one direction? How can
40:28
Speaker 1: that be right? Surely we have to allow people to
40:32
Speaker 1: go in either direction. But that's exactly the point that
40:38
Speaker 1: around which there is no agreement, certainly in the UK
40:42
Speaker 1: or anywhere else that I can see.
40:45
Speaker 3: So in the UK currently conversion therapy is completely banned.
40:50
Speaker 3: Is that the case?
40:52
Speaker 1: No, that's what I'm saying. That this memorandum of understanding
40:56
Speaker 1: is a de facto band so they never, they never,
41:00
Speaker 1: and it they just made it impossible for anybody to
41:04
Speaker 1: work in this way because they would be out of
41:08
Speaker 1: order in terms of ethical practice if they did it,
41:13
Speaker 1: because the memorandum of understanding was in place, but there
41:16
Speaker 1: was no legislation to back it up, and that's been
41:21
Speaker 1: the difficulty. So now they are trying to introduce a
41:26
Speaker 1: legislation and we're still waiting for this parliament. They say,
41:31
Speaker 1: before the end of this current parliament, this bill will
41:36
Speaker 1: be tabled and that will be an attempt to bring
41:40
Speaker 1: in legislation that finally confirms this. But you'll note that
41:46
Speaker 1: this was first suggested by Theresa May. Then Boris Johnson
41:52
Speaker 1: came and this is what four or five prime ministers ago.
41:57
Speaker 1: No political party yet has succeeded in bringing this forward
42:01
Speaker 1: because there is an enormous amount of opposition from all
42:05
Speaker 1: sorts of people, not only Christians and not only religious people,
42:10
Speaker 1: but people who have got, you know, a different perspective
42:15
Speaker 1: on all of this, so I think it's going to
42:19
Speaker 1: be very challenging for the government to do this.
42:23
Speaker 3: And what happened with in twenty twelve with the London
42:27
Speaker 3: bus campaign during the Olympics.
42:31
Speaker 1: So at that time there were one thousand double decker
42:36
Speaker 1: buses in London that carried the advert some people are gay,
42:42
Speaker 1: get over it.
42:43
Speaker 3: Oh right, okay, I remember that.
42:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this was during the time of the Olympics.
42:50
Speaker 1: So we thought, well, it would be good to have
42:52
Speaker 1: a counter adverts. So that's what we did, a counter
43:00
Speaker 1: advert on twelve on twenty buses. That was the plan.
43:07
Speaker 1: Because we didn't have the resources to do one thousand buses.
43:11
Speaker 1: We got permission to do it and everything was done.
43:15
Speaker 1: It was designed in a way that kind of parodied
43:19
Speaker 1: this advert, so it looked like the same but it
43:22
Speaker 1: said the opposite, in other words, some people were gay,
43:25
Speaker 1: get over it. And that's what we went with. But
43:32
Speaker 1: the night before this was all to hit the streets,
43:36
Speaker 1: Boris Johnson banned the advert. I claimed to be one
43:41
Speaker 1: who really you know, pushed him forward because I think
43:45
Speaker 1: he got a tremendous amount of support by doing that,
43:48
Speaker 1: and shortly after was re elected as Mayor of London.
43:53
Speaker 3: Sadly wow, okay, so there's no free speech in London,
44:01
Speaker 3: in England and the UK talk about core issues trust?
44:07
Speaker 3: What is core issues trust?
44:10
Speaker 1: So in two thousand and seven I wanted to start
44:15
Speaker 1: a Christian organization that would work on these issues. So,
44:21
Speaker 1: to cut a long story short, it was started. I
44:25
Speaker 1: began working with individuals. This was before I had started
44:30
Speaker 1: training as a psychotherapist. I just wanted to be there
44:35
Speaker 1: for people who struggled as I had struggled. And eventually
44:43
Speaker 1: it became registered as a charity in Northern Ireland, much
44:49
Speaker 1: to the concern of the National Humanist Society and the
44:55
Speaker 1: British Humanists and everybody who was appalled by the London
45:00
Speaker 1: US case. They were dead against us. But we were
45:03
Speaker 1: registered and have been since then and you know, continue
45:08
Speaker 1: to do our work and whatchory issues trust is is
45:14
Speaker 1: there to support the church as it supports individuals who
45:19
Speaker 1: struggle in this area. And out of coor Ish's trust
45:25
Speaker 1: has come X out Loud. I think you will obviously
45:29
Speaker 1: you know Tear and Liam and of course Matthew, Matthew Grek,
45:35
Speaker 1: we all work together on X out Loud and it's
45:40
Speaker 1: it's a community of Christians who have experienced these issues
45:45
Speaker 1: but have now found help and contentment and a way
45:49
Speaker 1: forward because of our relationship with the Lord Jesus. So
45:54
Speaker 1: Core kind of looks after that and seeks to support it.
46:00
Speaker 1: We also have another project called the International Foundation for
46:05
Speaker 1: Therapeutic and Counseling Choice, which has been an attempt to
46:12
Speaker 1: build up Christian professionals and a lot of work has
46:18
Speaker 1: got gone into that. We are currently seeking accreditation in
46:24
Speaker 1: the UK. Talk about swimming upstream, that's I guess that's
46:28
Speaker 1: what we do. But we believe that, you know, we
46:34
Speaker 1: should have our place in the sun. We believe that
46:39
Speaker 1: we should be professional. And you know, we've had enough
46:43
Speaker 1: of the accusations that anybody who works in this area is,
46:48
Speaker 1: you know, a snake oil merchant. Okay, So let us
46:53
Speaker 1: accredit ourselves. Let us put ourselves out there and compete
46:59
Speaker 1: on the same basis as everybody else who seeks registration.
47:04
Speaker 1: And that's the process that we're going through at the moment.
47:08
Speaker 3: And what happened with Barclay's Bank.
47:14
Speaker 1: Well, in I think it was July twenty thirteen, fourteen,
47:19
Speaker 1: forgive me, I can't remember exactly. I just received a
47:24
Speaker 1: letter in the post saying Barclays was closing Core Issues
47:29
Speaker 1: Trust's account and also the account of the International Federation
47:34
Speaker 1: for Therapeutic and Counseling Choice. That's what it was first called.
47:39
Speaker 1: I thought, what this is crazy, So I phoned them
47:42
Speaker 1: up and they said, no, no, you have three months,
47:45
Speaker 1: but we're closing your accounts finished. And about that time
47:52
Speaker 1: I started receiving, like I have the record somewhere, but
47:58
Speaker 1: probably fifty or sixty calls, nuisance calls, threats of the
48:04
Speaker 1: most you know, awful kind from all over the world,
48:13
Speaker 1: but especially from the UK. And apparently there had been
48:17
Speaker 1: a decision that okay, let's do something about this. Let's
48:23
Speaker 1: get Core Issues Trust, and he's the one you need
48:27
Speaker 1: to go after. So that's exactly what they did. They
48:31
Speaker 1: also went after my legal friends who were supporting me,
48:38
Speaker 1: jamming our phones, phoning us all hours of the night,
48:42
Speaker 1: sending the most horrendous links and you know, opportunities to
48:48
Speaker 1: participate in this that and sideways. It was horrendous to
48:53
Speaker 1: the point where we had to report it to the police.
49:00
Speaker 1: But sadly the police, you know, they have a very
49:05
Speaker 1: close relationship to LGBT organization, certainly in northern Ireland, So
49:10
Speaker 1: that didn't go very far and they closed the accounts
49:16
Speaker 1: and nobody, no other bank would look at us. We
49:21
Speaker 1: tried five or six different banking organizations, including Christian banking organizations.
49:30
Speaker 1: Nobody would have anything to do with us. It all
49:34
Speaker 1: went to court and it eventually it got to the
49:39
Speaker 1: point where Barclay's paid us out not a huge amount,
49:45
Speaker 1: but would not admit liability or guilt in any way
49:50
Speaker 1: and would not restore our bank accounts. Eventually we persuaded
49:57
Speaker 1: a bank and they have thankfully given us access to
50:02
Speaker 1: an account. We have one account for all of these
50:05
Speaker 1: organizations and that's that's how we've operated. But it's been horrendous.
50:11
Speaker 3: Wow. I mean a lot of that is happening here too,
50:16
Speaker 3: but things are shifting in the current political climate. What so,
50:24
Speaker 3: what are you still practicing psychotherapy psychodrama therapy today?
50:32
Speaker 1: Well, I can't call myself a psychodrama psychotherapist because I
50:36
Speaker 1: was never allowed to qualify. So what I am is
50:40
Speaker 1: a man with experience and some perspective and understanding. And
50:47
Speaker 1: it's on that basis that I work with people. I
50:50
Speaker 1: tell them what my limitations are. That way I am
50:54
Speaker 1: able to refer them to people who are qualified in
51:01
Speaker 1: a way that I was not allowed to be when
51:04
Speaker 1: I need to do that. But I'm very actively involved
51:10
Speaker 1: in supporting X out Loud and the IFTCC and continuing
51:16
Speaker 1: to do the work that basically says individuals should have
51:20
Speaker 1: the right and the freedom to go in the direction
51:23
Speaker 1: that they want to go in, and the way I'm
51:29
Speaker 1: you know, I'm using my time is to try to
51:32
Speaker 1: make sure that those rights are entrenched and that the
51:38
Speaker 1: system recognizes the arguments that do exist and the literature
51:44
Speaker 1: that is clear that backs up this minority point of view.
51:49
Speaker 1: We're not trying to change everybody's point of view, but
51:55
Speaker 1: we want our place in the sun, and we don't
51:58
Speaker 1: think that's unreason to ask that, and we are willing
52:03
Speaker 1: to professionalize ourselves. And there are increasing numbers of therapists
52:11
Speaker 1: who have had enough of the memorandum of understanding, want
52:15
Speaker 1: out of their professional body and want the freedom to
52:19
Speaker 1: support individuals in this area. And that's that's the direction
52:25
Speaker 1: we would like to go in.
52:26
Speaker 3: M Well, there's a I'm sure you know about this,
52:30
Speaker 3: but there's a Supreme Court case here concerning minors and
52:35
Speaker 3: this the idea of conversion therapy or reintegrative therapy whatever
52:40
Speaker 3: it is you want, whatever you want to call.
52:41
Speaker 1: It, but that's great. And the i TCC has done
52:47
Speaker 1: an amicus brief. If you go on to their site,
52:50
Speaker 1: you'll see that we've submitted something towards that case.
52:57
Speaker 3: Oh okay, I didn't know that.
53:00
Speaker 2: Wow.
53:01
Speaker 3: Well, and I don't know when that case will be
53:03
Speaker 3: officially decided. I think maybe this summer, but I but
53:13
Speaker 3: let's leave it there. Thank you so much, Mike for
53:15
Speaker 3: coming on the show and sharing all of this. I
53:19
Speaker 3: hope that things do shift in the UK on this
53:24
Speaker 3: and that people are able to get the help they want.
53:28
Speaker 3: I mean, we should all be able to get the
53:29
Speaker 3: help we want. I mean, there shouldn't be any obstacles
53:33
Speaker 3: in the way. So I hope that changes in the UK.
53:37
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, Bickett. I really appreciate it.
53:43
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Beckett
53:46
Speaker 2: Cook Show. Your support makes this content possible. All episodes
53:51
Speaker 2: of The Beckett Cook Show are also available on YouTube.
53:55
Speaker 2: For more information about Beckett and his ministry, visit his
53:58
Speaker 2: website at ben Cook dot com.
54:02
Speaker 3: Thank you to the team at Life Audio for their
54:04
Speaker 3: partnership with us.
54:05
Speaker 4: If you go to lifeaudio dot
54:07
Speaker 3: Com you will find more faith centered podcasts about prayer,
54:10
Speaker 3: Bible study, parenting, and more.