Latest / Drama, Darling: A Real Housewives Comedy Podcast / Darling Bish Hour: Karen Huger Interview

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Darling Bish Hour: Karen Huger Interview · Drama, Darling: A Real Housewives Comedy Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Well, hello, hello all of you Darling Bishes out there,
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: and happy Groundhogs Day, which is the day that we
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: are recording this.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: Now, we are officially introducing.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Another hour of Darling Bish Hour with yours tru Leamy
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Phillips and.
• 0:19
  Speaker 3: Your bish therapist, Melissa Rich.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: What. Oh my gosh, Melissa, we're back again. It is
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: February first, and we have been doing this like every
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: month for the last three months.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: With a little bonus.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Last week when I jumped into I was a guest
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: on your podcast and we recap that was a great
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: podcast to be a part of. We went through so
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: much so if you are interested, if the Darling Bishes
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: haven't heard it yet, check out Melissa's episode from last
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: week where we covered a myriad of Bravo things and
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: beyond and beyond.
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: Amy and I I am ready, honey, I am on
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: clinical ready because watching already, Karen Huger knew I was
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: like raging last night or raging. I My thumbs were
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: moving faster than my keyboard and I just couldn't. I
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: was like, I'm so glad that Amy and I are
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: podcasting about this today because I couldn't have more to
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: say about this.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Okay, very excited. Well, I'm excited too,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: because here's the thing.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: I was not raging. I was like, huh, wow.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: She's really seems to be now, listen, I had some issues,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: trust me, I've I had a lot of issues. However,
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: I am so excited because I feel like I'm coming
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: in with rose colored glasses, a good overcoat of naivete,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: an umbrella of ignorance, and so like, I need to
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: be set straight because I was watching and I was like,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: she seems to really be taking up for a lot.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: And then I of course had some issues with some
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: other things. But wow, wow, the honesty about her marriage,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: the honesty about her leaving that night, and why the
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: honesty about the narcotics or actually, I'm sorry, not narcotics.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: She said they were antidepressants, which I'm extremely confused about,
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: so that's why we have and then not being and
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: then of course the i'm are you an alcoholic? And
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: then she definitely skirted around that basically by saying she wasn't,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: but then by the end said something along the lines
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: of well being an alcoholic, So I'm confused. I'm happy
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: for Karen. I am very happy that she has kind
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: of hit a rock bottom. Just I'm sure she's light
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: that she was the grand Dome in prison, because that's
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: you know, look, even though she wasn't qualified to be
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: mentoring these young ladies that she says she was, you
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: know what, that's she needed that more than they did,
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: you know, at the end of the day, and if
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: that helped her, I'm happy for that. And her eyes
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: are on the prize of being positive and getting through this.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: I'm here to be.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: To be fanning the flames of the next step of
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: her healing, and I hope she gets to it. Let's
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: get into the real dirt, Melissa.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, oh hold on.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: I could not believe the camera work of just her
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: coming home and just the cameras.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: Being in there and.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Ray and her kids. That was shocking to me. I
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: did not expect to have it be that intimate. In
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: the car with the paparazzi going by, you feel like
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: you're there. That was incredible journalism. And I'm not afraid
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: to say it. I thought that was incredible journalism from
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: the inside of a car and then up until when
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Andy got there, Like wow.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: So Melissa, here's the thing.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: Okay, you are not wrong. There were moments of this
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: interview where she had honest moments for sure, and for me,
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: I can identify what I think were the more honest
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: moments and what I think were was complete deflection. And
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: I think for me what I said on social media
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: that got a lot of people were like, yes, I
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: felt this way too. Is the interview kind of gave
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: me whiplash. Like It's like, on the one hand, she
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: was she knew the right words to say, but then
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: I was hearing things that would completely walk it back
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: and contradict those things. And so you know, with my
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: clinical experience and working in impatient rehabilitations, I feel like
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: I had such a good idea, like I've seen this before,
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: and I had such a good idea. I felt like,
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: of what were the honest moments and then what were
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: some of the moments that personally made me rage. So
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: I don't know where you want to start.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: I want to start at this. I want to start
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: at the antidepressants. You know, here we have her saying
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: like twenty years ago, which you probably, I'm guessing, were
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: happy about her being honest, like this started twenty years ago.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: This start ray wanted me to get help. Twenty years
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: ago and her being super honest about that and her
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: kids and whatever, and I was like, wow, she is
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: really and that you know, she had the I whatever.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: And from there she went to the doctor. He said, oh,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: it's fine, just take these pills.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: That's where I'm feeling things will bubble up. And now
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: she's saying that those are antidepressants, So how can you
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: did she call the pills narcotics?
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Okay, So that's where I'm at.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: I want to talk about the SSRIs or whatever it
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: is that she's saying that she's she's amazing abusing things.
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So I'm gonna this is the part that
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: makes me rage. And there are layers two it that
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: I'm going to break down. Okay, So number one, the
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: one important thing that we realized is that Karen said
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: her lawyers said that she couldn't name the medication because
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: she would get sued, right, we remember that, sure do.
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: Let me tell you why. Because ssrri's antidepressants do not
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: cause addiction, they do not cause drunk dry they are
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: not meds that can be abused in that way. They're
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: not opiates. And so I'm going to explain some of
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: the differences and what I think maybe she was referring to.
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: But this is why it's so it makes me very
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: angry because number one, antidepressants, there's different there's so many
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: different categories of medical like classes of medications. Okay, so
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: when we're talking SSRIs sarah selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, there's
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: also ss ni's neuroepinephrin inhibitors, and there's there's different classes
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: of medications. Okay, So when we say the word antidepressant,
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: I am used to that being weaponized in terms of
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: what is the actual medication, what does that mean? Because
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: while antidepressants they're not addictive, they don't cause addiction. In fact,
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: antidepressants are lives for people like me and people in recovery. Right,
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: So many folks in recovery have what we call dual diagnosis,
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: where it's not just an addiction issue, it's a mental
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: health issue as well, whether it's depression, anxiety, PTSD, things
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: like that. People don't just use substances because they're bored.
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: It's a very complex process. And so what's insulting about
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: her saying this is that there are many people who
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: take this life saving medication. Myself included, and then to
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: hear her weaponize it.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like caring since that is okay, kim that's bad,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: Kim on.
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's super bad. And why she can't talk about
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: it because she will get sued because she's talking out
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: of her ass. Number one. Number two, it doesn't even
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: make physical sense to me about how she was able
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: to take more and change her dose of a medication. Yeah,
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: without having that be noticed. Because when we get our antidepressants,
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: however you get them, you get the thirty day supply,
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: ninety day supply, whatever it is you need, and.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: You know, I just head on over to the Von's pharmacy,
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: you know, because I am not smart to think ahead
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: where I can just like get a mail to me
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: or you know, do it in such a way. I
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: just like to overcomplicate my life so that I got
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: to go over there every couple of months and be
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: like here I am again, you know, So I just
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: head on over there, Santa Clarita.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: They do it up for me.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: So yeah, but however she's getting them, Melissa.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: It doesn't make sense. Like so, for example, if I
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: started doubling my dose right which, by the way, if
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: I double my dose, of lexipro. The only thing that's
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: going to happen is I'm just going to waste the
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: medication because there are certain milligrams of these antidepressants that
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: once you ex you're just gonna lose the value of
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: the medication. It's just not gonna help. It's not like
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: doubling up on my lexipro makes me extra happy. It
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: just becomes less helpful if I'm taking too much of it.
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: Does that make sense?
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, but if you are doubling up on
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: your lexapro, it will it won't have any effect on
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: you though, Like even though that's not your dosage, you
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: won't feel it in any way.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: Okay, So let me clear. Let me give you an example.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: Lexipro the dosage that each of these meds have a
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: different level of, like clinically significant dosage. So for example,
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: twenty milligrams of lexipro is the highest dosage of lex ice.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: So if you go over the highest dosage is what
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: you're saying, Yeah.
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: It becomes it's not necessarily efficacious if you're going over,
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: like if Prozac if the maximum And I'm not an
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: expert on prozac because I don't take it, but let's say,
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: the max for prozac is sixty milligrams or forty I
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: think something around there. If you take sixty or eighty,
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: it's not going to be any more efficacious, and in fact,
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: you may have some side effects from taking more than
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: what is clinically recommended and supported by research.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: Got it.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: So if you have to get to the max, you
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: have to get over the max, as to what you're saying,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: in order to yeah, hurt, that's what she's talking about.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: So like, even if you go over the max, you're
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: not going to have the type of effect that she's claiming.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: And that totally makes sense. Yes, okay, no, wow.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: No.
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: Number two, if you're taking double your dose or you're
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: increasing it on your own, you're going to have prescription problems.
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: So I want to know who is prescribing that. How
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: did this not get noticed? There's something janky here that
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: doesn't pass the sniff test to me. Now, one thing
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: that I will say, my little clinic inkling, is that
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: Karen may be trying to talk about xanax.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: That's what I was thinking too, because that's supposed to
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: be is that considered an SSRI or an anti I mean,
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: it can be considered an anti depressive right.
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: No, So I will tell you no, Xanax is a
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: benzo diazepine.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, right, a benzo diam Salt Lake City Reunion. If
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: we learn nothing, Melissa is here to say, okay benzo Okay.
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So a xanx is a benzo diazepine. It is
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: not an SSRI. Now, Xanax treats panic disorder, you know,
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: anxiety disorders. It's not necessarily an antidepressant, but it does
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: help folks with anxiety and panic. And the reason I
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: know that is that I have taken at moments in
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: my life. I'll be honest right now, I've taken xanax
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: because with my PTSD when it gets triggered for some reason,
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: I've tried every other medication, my body hates it. And
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: with xanax. The major problem with xanax is it's incredibly
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: addictive for a couple reasons. So a benzodiazepine does different
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: things to your brain and your body than an SSRI.
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: They're completely different mechanisms, and a benzodiazepine like xanax, what
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: happens is our body gets accustomed to it and we
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: need more and more and more to get the same effects.
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: I have had people had to go into an impatient
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: rehabilitation because they were prescribed these by a doctor didn't know,
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: they weren't educated about it, and then they had a
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: physiological dependence that they needed assistance to get off of xanax.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: It makes sense, so right, So my thought is that
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: is Karen trying to say that this is an antidepressant
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: when in reality it isn't.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: And she goes into prison and she's cold turkey. How
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: did she get through that? She didn't mention anything about
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: like detoxing.
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: Correct correct, So with the amount of alcohol she was
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: drinking and whatever this medication was, she would have absolutely
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: gone into some sort of detox while in jail. The
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: only thing I saw about that was I read an
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: article that said that she well, like the first night
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: or the second night that she was there, she was
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: like sweating. It sounded like she did have some detox symptoms.
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: I would have liked to hear more about that. Personally, Yeah,
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: but I just don't think that that's something she wants
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: to blame a doctor prescribing the medication. Like she literally
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: said this in the interview. This is one thing that
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: caught my attention. She said, I find saying that I'm
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: an addict is basically more palatable because because with the drinking,
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: I make that choice, but with the prescription, the doctor
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: made the choice. Right, You're right, yeah, And so I
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: think that for me, this is the denial of the
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: minimization that really really is significant and then weaponizing really
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: vulnerable things like antidepressants. The whole thing just pissed me
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: right off.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Antidepressant thing. I'm still like shocked that she went on
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: TV and said that it was antidepressants that caused this
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: issue and that that because of that when she drank,
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: that's what we were seeing, and that she didn't drink
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: that much. So is she saying that when she drank,
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: which wasn't a lot because she was abusing antidepressants, that
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: that's why you know, she's.
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: Listen, if every person who drank a while taking an antidepressant,
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: if this happened to all those people, everyone would be
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: getting duives. Okay, if that was really like what was happening.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: There are so many people in this world who drink alcohol.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: You know, appropriately, they don't have a problem. They drink
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: it in moderation, as you know, they don't have issues.
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: But drinking alcohol while taking an antidepressant, Now, there can
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: be some side effects. So if you just stop, whether
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: it's xanax or an SSRI or an SSNI, if you
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: just cold turkey stop anything, you are going to have
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: side effects, period.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: But you won't have side effects necessarily like a detox.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: If you were to take down your your antidepressants from
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: abusing them more than the ractual dosage to down to
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: what it actually should be, you're not going to have
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: major detox symptoms from that, right.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: That's actually called ty trating. So what happens is when
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: we are trying to get off an antidepressant or switch
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: medications or something, the responsible thing to do by a psychiatrist,
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: you know, psychiatric nurse practitioner, whoever people see is to
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: ty trate down on meds. So what that means is
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: like if you're taking let's say, you know, the clinical
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: dosage for lexapro's twenty milligrams, but let's say you're taking forty,
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: so you would tyetrate down to thirty and then twenty
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: and then ten, right, and you would ty trate to
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: get to your desired level. I guess I would say,
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: but the withdrawal symptoms are going to be vast for
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: things like xanax for a benzodiazepine and alcohol, or as
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: for an SSRI, You're going to have side effects, but
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: the withdrawal will be very different.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: If that makes sense, it does.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, she's making these broad, sweeping statements that don't
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: make sense across the When she says she goes to NA,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: that's more helpful to her. But let's go back to
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: the twenty years ago. What do you have to say
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: about that?
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: So this is why I'm frustrated with her trying to
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: throw a prescription med under the bus. Is that. The
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: one real honest moment in this interview came when she
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: admitted that twenty years ago, her daughter Raven and her
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: son Brandon and Ray had intervened on her because of
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: the level of drinking. Last year at the Potomac Reunion,
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: Ashley Darby brought to the cast that she was told
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: by someone that Karen would day drink at Legal Seafood
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: every day and would get so drunk that Ray would
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: have to come and pick her up. In this interview
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: with Andy, Karen admitted that is true, but it was
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: twenty years ago, and so she's trying to say, well
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: that was a long time ago. But to me, I'm like, well,
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: you just told on yourself, because here's what I'm going
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: to tell you about addiction. It doesn't spontaneous, spontaneously recover,
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: It doesn't disappear, it doesn't. It takes blood, sweat, and
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: tears to get into a place of recovery and maintain
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: a place of recovery from addiction. So she told on
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: herself in terms of saying she's had problems with alcohol
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: for twenty plus years. She didn't just spontaneously start taking
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: this medication and then develop more problems. It's just a
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: way for her to soothe her, you know, her guilt,
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: her shame, and to make it more palatable for herself.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: But for people who are in recovery, a lot of
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: them came into my comments, and here's why we're angry
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: is when you watch people the pain, the raw nature
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: that it takes to strip yourself of all the stuff
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: and to admit I am powerless, I am humbled, I
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: am you know, an addict, I am an alcoholic that
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: takes a lot of really serious work that people like myself,
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: we don't take kindly to it. When someone tries to
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: do a little magic trick around it, right. It's like,
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: you know, when I see somebody in recovery, what you're
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: gonna see is humility. And that is something that I
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: not only did I not see in Karen, I saw
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: the opposite. I saw a hubris that tells me that
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: she hasn't done some very very important work that needs
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: to be done. Now, that doesn't mean she can't.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: Do it well, because I want to be did it
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: before she went into prison, which is interesting like so
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: and then the other parts. I want to talk about
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: her before she goes into prison, but I also want
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: to say that it hasn't been that long that this
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: this all came down. And to your point about how
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: it takes so much work. If she's in prison and
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: not not getting the support and the rehab that she
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: needs and the sponsorship and the meetings and the I mean,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: I know she's going she says, she goes to NA,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: but like, if she's not getting everything that she needs,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: how can she really work those levels? And so for her,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: she probably thinks at this point that she is like
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: on the other side of it. But I have personally
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: witnessed where this stage of people when they have an
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: addiction of sorts, and they get to this level, they
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: do think that they are on the other side of it,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: but it's not necessarily the other side yet, and they
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: still have a long way to go. And so that's
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: why when I was watching this interview, I had a
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: tendency to be more I don't even want to say empathetic,
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: because I know you're probably one of the most empathetic
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: people I've ever met. I just don't have the knowledge
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: of what was actually happening, but I was thinking, well,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: it's better than nothing. At least she's on her path,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: and we're seeing some change, we're seeing some positive things,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: we're seeing some admittance, we're seeing some things that we
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: hadn't seen before. Absolutely the road ahead, she hasn't quite
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: gotten down to the very bottom of it.
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: Right, And for me, you're right, listen, you're right in
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: that the motivation, there's things called the motivational stages of change,
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: and it starts with denial, denial, pre contemplation, contemplation, action,
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: and maintenance and so and I might be missing one
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: in there, but I you know, my brain is a
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: little bit hijacked today, admittedly. So the point is that
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: with these motivational stages to change. Motivation is not a
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: linear process. What that means is that we can come
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: into awareness taking action of our you know, saying, Okay,
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: I'm an addict, I need to make some changes. I'm
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: gonna prepare to make those changes and then make them.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: And then you know, there's a saying that relapses a
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: part of recovery, and then sometimes people relapse in that
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: denial process starts all over again. That is why addiction
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: is so tricky. When you sleep on addiction, when you
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: think that you're on the other side of it, that's
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: when it comes for you. And the biggest red flag
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: for me that really made me mad was saying she
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: told Andy she wouldn't say whether she's an alcoholic or not,
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: but she said that she's committed to a lifetime of sobriety. Okay,
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: here's why that's the biggest red flag on the planet.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Is she still in denial? Is that?
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: Well, not only is she still in denial, but what
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: I will tell you is that the main concept of
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: recovery is literally in the twelve step program is one
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: day at a time. Nobody, nobody in their right place
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: mind who is humbled and truly in recovery would ever say, well,
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: this is a lifetime thing, because not only is relapsed
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: a part of recovery, but addiction is so sneaky that
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: we can never assume that we're done with it. You know,
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: they call it a sleeping tiger. You know, they have
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: a lot of names for it, because as soon as
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: you turn your back and you think I got this,
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: it comes for you. And so I think that's what
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: I'm seeing, and I think that's what other people write
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: in recovery are seeing. And so, but your point is
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: very important, which is Karen does deserve empathy in terms
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: of like I want Karen to win, I want her
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: to recover. I just don't like that she has this platform.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's you know, she.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: Can make these statements that are so inherently harmful and
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: invalidating and just incorrect information all because like this is
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: all processes that happen, and when people are in addiction,
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: it's just when you're in front of a camera and
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: your mouth is in front of a mic. That's what
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: causes some of the issues.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: That's really tough, because you know, and she needed to
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: speak to us on some level if well, I guess
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: I mean she's the Grandam. She's gonna speak, She's gonna speak.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: There was no chance that she wasn't going to come
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: out of there and not speak. However, if she really
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: had hit hit hit rock bottom, because I'm just judging
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: that she didn't, that's just my assessment based on everything
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: that you're saying allegedly, I'm just going to have to
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: judge and say. She is absolutely like she's on her waists,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: on a good path. I'm impressed by so much, but
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: there is such a thick layer I'm realizing now of
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: what she hasn't drilled through, And now I feel scared
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: because you know, she is self admitting that she was
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: essentially delusional. I couldn't believe when Andy was like, yeah,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: you were delusional. You know, that was a pretty honest
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: thing to say. Yeah, And I also thought that he
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: did ask a lot of good questions within the realm
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: of being yeah.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Andy. I was sincerely applauding him because you know,
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: I know, maybe people criticize Andy for, you know, not
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: being tough on people or whatever their criticisms are, but
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: this I'm not kidding. If I were interviewing her, I
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: would have done asked those same questions. And I think
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: Andy really did a service for her and the viewers
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: because I think you can tell Andy really loves Karen.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: He has a real affection for her and Ray and
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of the other housewives too, which
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: is what makes those relationships so special. And when you
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: really love someone, part of that love is like I'm
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: not going to love you to death. I'm going to
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: call out the delusion. I'm going to call this out
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: because you're life is on the line and this is
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: too important not to So kudos cadoos, as Ramona would say,
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: cadoo's to Andy, because he did a wonderful job.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: And I don't know if Karen had any restrictions on
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: the things that Andy could ask her, but it didn't
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: seem like she gave a lot of roadblocks for what
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: he could ask her. The road seemed to be pretty open.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: Mm hmmm, yeah, which was also very surprising, you know.
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: And again to your point, one of the sayings in
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: the twelve step program is progress not perfection, and so
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: to that point, Karen is making progress. Yeah, but there
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: is still so much of this that is wildly concerning
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: to me and I think to Andy as well, Like
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: when because it's like she would go in and out
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: of admitting that she had a problem, and she was like,
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: I did a meme about it because it was so wild.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: She said, I don't drink and drive. This is something
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: I just wouldn't do, so I had to be out
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: of it to do it. And Andy literally looked at her
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: and goes, well, you did it four times.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: That was shocked.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: But then she she corrected those stats, right.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: She sure did, which was another red flag.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: She said, this was.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna clear this up because I
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: did my research so in twenty eleven, because when people
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: dive into semantics, I'm like, I'm going to dismantle every
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: single part of this argument because and in all sincerity,
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: as a therapist, you do have to use a lot
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: of interventions to get through denial and minimization. So in
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: all sincerity, this is something that I would do one
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: on one in session. It's just I'm doing it now
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: in a very different way.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: You must have had a lot of people.
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: Honestly, and here's what I can say. The greatest honor
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: of my life is that I helped people find the
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: road to save their own lives. I've prevented people from
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: ending their life. I have helped people get into a
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: space of recovery. I have prevented a school shooting. I have.
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: I've done a lot of things. WHOA Yeah, that for
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: me are the greatest honors of my life. So when
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: you hear me talk about this harshly and with such passion,
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: it's because to me, these are life or death issues.
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: This is no Joe and really, and I respect.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: The greatest honor of your life is talking about the
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: Real Housewives. Let's be real. I mean, all that other
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: stuff is pretty good, but I mean, let's let's get
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: down to it. Okay, So how would you dismantle when
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: she said it was only two DUIs and then the
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: other two or whatever?
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: What was that?
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: So the other two were quote unquote alcohol related incidents.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: Now I tried to find what exactly she was charged with,
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: but I couldn't find exactly. But so what that tells
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: me is that the two other incidents were she she
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: got she she got arrested, or got in trouble for
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: doing something related to alcohol, but for one reason or
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: another wasn't charged with d u I. And so what
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: I would say is that, you know, if I were
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: had someone like this in front of me, I would
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: point out the minimization of saying only two d UIs,
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: because the amount of do us that we should have
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: a zero, that's that zero we should have. Okay, So
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: if it's two, we got to look at the minimization
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: of how we're using our language to skirt our accountability.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: That's where I start.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: And if there are two others, because because what we
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: were reading is like there were four total, right, like,
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: so the one that she got arrested for, the fourth one,
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: Twenty eleven, No, twenty eleven and twenty twenty four were
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: her two duy's. The other alcohol related incidents happened between
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: two thousand and six and then twenty twenty four.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I think got it. So there were four incidents.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Now the two unnamed yep, that are not she's not
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: categorizing under DUI in my opinion, probably would have been
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: a dui. But she knew somebody and they got pushed.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: Maybe yeah, possibly, or she got lucky in some way,
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: shape or form. But also but also like what I
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: would say to someone is that, okay, so if those
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: two had been DUIs, that would have been for, so
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: you know, we can dance around all these.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Works got charged and she got charged with that, right,
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: I mean those she had charges.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, listen, I I do have to do more digging
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: because I was just exhausted last night and I couldn't
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: find the exact records to say what she was arrested
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: for or what happened. But the facts are there were
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: two duys and two other alcohol related incidents. And so
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: let's stop trying to get in the weeds with the
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: specifics because she's doing this to confuse people, right, She's
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: doing this to try to confuse people and to distance
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: herself to say it's not that bad. And to that
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: I would literally say to her face, bullshit.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Wow, bullshit wow wow wow, because she's basically saying, no,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: twenty years ago there was a problem, and then a
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: doctor is the one responsible for my problem. Now, in
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: between this until now, there was no real problem that
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: I was doing on my own.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, which is insane. I mean, it's crazy making. That's
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: those are statements it's could be making.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: It's crazy. Wow.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Okay, wait, let me ask you about going into rehabs
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: so she or getting the treatment that she had, did
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know what it was that she did, but
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: she was saying before she even went to prison, she
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: went and got treatment somewhere right, and whomever was working
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: with her a therapist, they made her watch that video
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: and before she went to prison. She knew she was
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: going to prison at that point because she had been
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: charged and sentenced. Her lawyers told her this video was
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: coming out and to make a plea deal. And so
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: for her to admit this is a win for her
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: in my book, I'm going to give her a point.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: For her to admit that she was still out of
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: it on pills, that she wasn't with it enough to
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: even consider watching the video. She refused, and that she
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: was like, no, I'm not going to do a plea deal,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: which is insane.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: Would we have ever seen that video if she had
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: agreed to a plea deal, was that video coming out
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: no matter what?
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: Well, that's a great question. There's part of me that
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: wants to believe that if she had owned her stuff,
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: gotten out of denial, took the plea deal, that maybe
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: we wouldn't have seen the video. But I think that
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: there were a lot of people involved that when she's
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: continuing this delusion which is what it was. When people
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: are in active addiction, your brain is not in touch
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: with a reality for real because of the addiction. And
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: so I think that people involved were angry, and understandably so,
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: and I wonder if that had something to do with it,
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: but I don't know for sure. That's just my thought.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: I can't even imagine Ray and her kids and what
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: they must have gone through, not only I'm talking about
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: like at that moment when they know this video is
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: coming out and they've seen it, they've seen it, and
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: she's refusing to see it, and she's refusing to take
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: a plea deal. How in the world to see them
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: standing by her side now is mind blowing.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: And Brandon being.
• 35:16
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• 35:25
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  Speaker 1: on product and plan purchase. So she decided to not
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• 37:53
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• 37:56
  Speaker 1: watch this.
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: How in the world, which is great?
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Great?
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: Which is like great? I was like, oh, so she
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: was somewhere where they were doing real work, because that
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: is absolutely an intervention that would have been necessary, Okay,
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: to get to break through some of Karen's denial.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: So what did you think about her response to that video?
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Like she couldn't believe it was her, Like, what was
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: her response on part with the things that you've seen
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: as far as like the right reaction and what was
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: your thought? What were your thoughts on all of pre prison.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: So I think that she definitely had the right reaction.
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: She's like, I don't know who that Karen was, which
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: is fair, right, when we do things in active addiction,
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: that is not who we are as people. And so
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: I do think her reaction she was stunned. She was like,
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: I think she called herself crazy or something.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: She used a.
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: Word that told but it also told me that the
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: shame and the guilt that she felt it really pressed
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: those buttons. It pressed those wounds for her to see that,
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: because it does it is hard for us and for
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: our ego to realize sometimes how sick we might be.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: And so that's where I think now this rebounding comes
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: where she's trying to use soft language and trying to
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: skirt around things because the human brain we can only
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: take so much shame and guil, you know, we need
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: to do something with that. So but what is interesting
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: to me is that her she talked about her home
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: was a tomb. She used the word.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Tomb, which home the home that she grew up in,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: her home with Ray.
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: No. She said the night of her dui in twenty
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: twenty four, she was running away from home because her
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: home was a tomb. She was so unhappy with Ray.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: And this is why this is so important. That word
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: toomb i was like, that is hevvy And it tells
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: you that Karen is like spending so much of her
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: time trying to pretend on the outside like things are
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: perfect right with Ray and with her drinking and all
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: of this, but she people will always tell on themselves
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: if you're paying attention, and this moment was something that
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: I was like, Oh, Karen's been miserable in this marriage
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: for a long time, and it's so confusing because Ray
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: is such a ride or die. But the one thing
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: I really heard in this interview was that she told
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: Andy that Ray said he wants her to be sober
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: before she makes a decision about their marriage, which tells
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: me a lot about what's been happening for them, probably
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: for the last twenty years behind the scenes. And that's
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: devastating because that's not fair to Ray, that's not fair
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: to her kids, because whatever the reason is, it's we
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: you know, trauma is not our fault, but it is
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: our responsibility to fix it. And I think, you know,
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: keeping someone in a relationship and and you know, I
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: just imagine Ray going to pick her up and all
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: these things. And so what I think on Ray's end
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: is that a lot of treatment programs will have a
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: family component, because codependency is a huge part of you know,
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: when you love someone with an addiction, you're going to
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: be codependent. And codependency I describe as someone else becomes
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: our emotional thermostat. That's codependency. That's the way I like
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: to describe it.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: Wow, that is right, Really the greatest metaphor i've heard.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: It's it's so helpful metaphor an analogy.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: I don't know the difference, all right, tell me which
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: is it?
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: Oh?
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: True? I miss her.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: I'm actually seriously asking is it a metaphor or is
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: it an analogy?
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: I don't know what is it.
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: I think it is a analogy. I guess I would say, great,
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: well you didn't warn me they're do an analogy.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: But I like it.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: I like it a lot, especially considering that my fucking
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: thermostat and my heat is not working right now and
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: We've been having so many issues over the last like
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: several weeks. But anyway, I don't live where you live,
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: so it's not that bad. I'm not freezing like all.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: Practically half of the Eastern ZEA board right now, who's
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: lost their power for weeks.
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: Right now it is seven degrees and we have seventeen
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: inches of snow.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Mela.
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, if we didn't have heat, yeah, we'd have to
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: move out. It would be crazy. But still that's super annoying.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: It's annoying, but I am not complaining. Okay, that the
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: person is our emotional thermostat is my mind, and that
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: makes the most sense.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: So do you think, well, what should Ray he needs
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: to get?
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: He needs to get some treatment himself. It's some therapy.
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: So the program that I worked for, there was a
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: family day component where the families would come and they
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: would listen to lectures from the staff members, from people
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: in recovery you know AA leaders and A leaders. They
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: would get all of this uh information so that they
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: could understand ways that they may have inadvertently been enabling
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: in ways that they may be codependent. Because its addiction
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: is a family disease, period. It is not just the addict.
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: It is the whole system that the addict resides in
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: as well that makes a huge difference. Because what I
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: will tell you is that, unfortunately, I have seen people
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: die from the disease of addiction and it was because
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: they were innate, were in an enabling family system that
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: refused to change.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Wow, When Ray says I don't want you to make
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: a decision until you're sober, it should be him making
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: a decision, not waiting on her to make a decision.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Is that what we're saying, right, Yeah.
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: He should at least have more more agency in this decision.
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: Then you know, he's given Karen all this agency, but
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: where is his? And I would argue where you know,
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: Ray has given away his agency, you know, just when
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: she's day drinking at Legal Seafood and he's picking her up.
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: You know, he is giving away his power. And you know,
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: again it's because he loves her. But it does really
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: make me feel for Ray because he deserves better, like
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: everyone in this dynamic deserves better.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, But what her response was, she was like, well,
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: I'm working on it. So she didn't give him an answer, right,
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: Like I didn't understand that.
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: Right because she's essentially saying I'm still figuring it out.
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: And so there's part of that that's fair because being
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: in recovery, you literally have to relearn everything. You have
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: to relearn how to feel, how to process feelings without substances,
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: how to navigate relationships, how to navigate conflict. It's so
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: complex and confusing. But Karen does this thing where she's like, well,
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: we're working on it, and it's like, well, how are
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: you working on it? Because to me, Her and Ray
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: have just been in this cycle of dysfunction for the
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: last twenty years and neither of them know how to
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: get out of it, which is fair, right. We don't
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: know how to do that, and that's where I think
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: they would benefit from some marital counseling, some family counseling.
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: Ray maybe even doing his own individual therapy while Karen
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: is doing hers whatever, just getting help to get that perspective,
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: like I need help. I see my own therapist. Right,
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: I'm insightful, I'm aware, but being human means we have
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: blind spots and we all need help with that in
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: one way, shape or.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: Form, which so I meet in my next point because
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: I would like to take this time to have my
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: own therapy appointment with you. So Melissa, Yeah, I'm kidding,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: but I would And this is another you know, this
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: is a trigger warning, but I would love to discuss
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: her acknowledging and bringing to light what happened to her
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: when she was nineteen years.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: Old, And.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on that. I feel like I
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: know you pretty good and I and this is like
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: when I used to listen to doctor Laura and I
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: used to try to like figure out what she's going
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: to say to the callers. And I mean I was
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: only fifty percent right, because sometimes she would really take
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: I would be like, I did not see that coming.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: I have an idea what you're gonna say, but I don't.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: I know, it's not sure.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: So like what was that?
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: That was first of all, absolutely devastating and it hurt
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: my heart and it shredded it for Karen. And we've
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: never heard her talk about this obviously, and it's really
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: really sad.
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: So it is so Number one is that what she
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: was saying is something that is absolutely accurate. When people
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: get into they start using substances, it is typically said
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: that that is the moment where you stop developing or
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: when you have a trauma like a sexual assault, that
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: that can be the moment where people stop developing emotionally
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: because they become stuck or stunted because of this trauma.
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: So what I'm hearing perhaps happened was at the age
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: of nineteen, she experienced this actual assault, which deserves all
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: the support, empathy, love in the world period that I
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: just want to stay out the gate. I appreciated her
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: owning it, and I appreciated that she probably learned in
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: treatment that that is the moment where she became stuck.
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: And I assume, which I don't want to assume, but
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: I would assume that after that is when she started
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: relying on alcohol and substances to dull the pain that
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: came from that instance. So that is all real, that
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: is all valid, that's all yeah. But what I said
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: before stands is that trauma isn't our response, isn't our fault,
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: but it is our responsibility to fix it. And so
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: while it is understandable and we to know how to
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: do things different, we do have to have an understanding
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: of where our trauma is rooted. I do think that
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: she also needs to understand that that she just needs
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: to make some changes because inadvertently she's harming the people
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: that she loves most because of all of this together,
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: If that makes sense, so is Yeah, I mean, that's
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: that's kind of my thought.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: It was.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: It's interesting to hear you confirm about the stunted growth
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: essentially when and it's it seems like that would be obvious,
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: but it really isn't. To a lot of people. You
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: don't really understand that. And to find out that it
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: sounds like no one believed her right, that is.
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: Traualizing and you know, considering what's going on in the
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: state of our world right now, survivors aren't believed and
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: that needs to stop yesterday. Yeah, because nobody wants to
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: have to admit this. Nobody wants to have to experience this,
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: and it's something that can ruin your life if you
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: don't take the reins of your life to say, Okay,
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: I am no longer going to hurt myself because of
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: the things that happened to me that I cannot control.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: God, I don't know how you get to that point,
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: you know, like when you're young.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: You know, if you have something happen to you when
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: you're young like that, and I can completely understand how
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: you couldn't get to exactly what you're saying until you're
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: like fifty years old, because when you're like growing up,
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: growing through that pain and you're just trying to survive
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: in life, you would have to be like on in
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: therapy on a constant basis and like really wrapping your
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: mind around things. It would be such hard work to
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: get to that healthy place. I applaud so many people
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: when they do it, because you know, with age come
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: wisdom and more reflection, so sometimes it gets easier to
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: figure those things out later when you're like, oh, it's
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: all kind of clicking, I have so much distance. But
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: I also think that what you're saying is you have
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: to take responsibility for your own self so that it
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: doesn't damage you any further. And the question is how
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: do you get yourself to the point where you can
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: do that work without.
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: Well And really that work is just our actions. The
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: only way to really take responsibility for that is to
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: change our behaviors and to stop harming people and to
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: deal with our stuff. And I also think that's why
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: I was so frustrated with Karen, because not only was
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: this a public safety issue, you know, she has people
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: in her family who have probably been sick about this
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: for twenty years. That's too long too, It's too much
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: for the whole dynamic. Something's got to give. So that's
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: where I'm like, you know, it's not just her, She's
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: hurting people around her, which is that's the hardest thing
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: that people who are survivors have to wrap our brains around,
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: is like the ways that we've hurt other people because
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: of our struggle to really acknowledge our stuff.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's tough, because you're bringing others down with you.
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: Well you're hurting, right, You're hurting people because of our
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: own struggle to acknowledge or to change or Yeah.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: Now I want to mention because this to me sounded
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: very fluffy, which is it sounded like fluffy denial to me,
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: which is like she's now she was now in this prison,
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: and I'm not mocking it. So I hope it doesn't
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: come off this way, because, like I said before, I
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: feel like Karen needed it more than the other gals
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: that she's discussing in this interview where she was like,
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: they didn't want to put me in general population. They
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: did a great job with wanting to respect that, but
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: then I decided that I would be put there because
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: God had a reason for that, right, And so now
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: it becomes like it's not about I don't know, you'll
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: be in articulate this, but it's like ye, in my opinion,
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: it was like, oh, okay, so now you're the angel
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: of this prison, sent here to be a mentor when
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: your need you need to do the work yourself on
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: what you're doing.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: Why now you're not even on the other side of this.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: How can you be mentoring? And yet at the same
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: time like, okay, so what's correct?
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: Yes, you're on the right track. Amy, Yes, That is
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: the part that just I raged, because one thing that
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: people fall into is that helping others seems altruistic, but
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: in reality, there are people. There's a name for it
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: in the programs of AA and twelve step part. It's
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: called being a thirteenth stepper. So there's twelve steps in
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: the potra really interesting they call it being a thirteenth stepper,
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: meaning there are people who are in the program for
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: the wrong reasons, trying to mentor other people when they
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: do not have a handle on their own stuff. And
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: so for me, one of the biggest red flags was
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: Karen talking about how she wanted to go to jumpop,
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: which I'm like, was that a choice or is that
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: just where they put you? And this is your spin
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: on it. And number two, we have no business helping
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: others until we have actually helped ourselves. Otherwise it's performative.
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: Otherwise it's ego boosting. Otherwise it's just an altruistic smoke
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: screen that makes us look great, but in reality, it's
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: you're doing the same unhealthy dynamics behind the surface. Do
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: you know what I'm.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: Saying, Yeah, that's the vibe. That's the vibe.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: And so when she's saying, you know, I asked if
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: I could help out, if I can work, And so
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: then I was counseling these girls, and I'm like, how
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: is that credit in prison as far as work? Like, so,
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: what is she saying there, Melissa.
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: Because I look this up to Yeah, so here's what
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: she's saying. Karen was given she didn't volunteer to lead meetings.
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: It was a part of conditions to get her released early.
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah she wasn't.
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so so she's again she's it's like Judge Judy
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: used to say, don't pee on my leg and tell
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: me it's rating. This is what Karen's doing she's paying
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: on her leg and being like, well, look how how
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: much I've helped people, and it's like, no, you did that,
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: so you didn't have to be in jail. She So
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: she was convicted and sentenced to a year and she
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: got out in six months.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because of.
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: Her quote unquote volunteer hearing with AA and NA. So
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: my honest interpretation is that Karen went into jail. She
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: had celebrity, she had notoriety. She was given a lot
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: of attention that she didn't deserve and bypassed doing the
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: real work. She she kind of took a bridge over
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: it and then went straight into helping others because that,
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: in reality, makes her feel better. That suits her ego,
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: and I'm gonna be honest, helping other people is way
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: easier than helping ourselves.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: Not only that's truth.
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: Doing therapy like a provider for over twenty years. I
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: am in therapy every week for the last five years,
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: and I told him every every week, my therapist is like,
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: you good for next week, and my response is until
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: one of us dies, see you then, and it's it's fun.
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: I thought it was gonna be like my reaction, which is.
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: Fine, fine, fine, Yeah, I have no excuses. I have
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: no real excuses. I'm sure I could come up with them,
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: but okay, anyway.
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: But in fairness, like and I'm glad you shared that, Amy,
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: because like, I'm obsessed with therapy because I love my
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: therapist and I just feel like she's the perfect person
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: for me, which, by the way, I tried. I had
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: a lot of duds before I found this therapist. I'll
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: just give a quick plug for people. I had a
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: therapist a fall asleep while I was talking and b
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: smoke a brisket during a telehealth session. And not just
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: not just smoke, no, I'm not kidding, not just smoke
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: a brisket. But she acted like I was like the
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: Food Channel, and she was like explaining what she was doing,
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: and I had to be like, my god, yeah, I
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: was like, no, this is not going to work. And
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: then I fired her and she was really mad at me,
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: and I was like, well, next time, don't smoke a
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: brisket when you're seeing clients.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: Is now, let me ask you.
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: This was this during COVID and people were going fucking
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: crazy and eat and making bread and stuff. So she
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: was like she was so well, excuse me, but delusional
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: that she thought she could get away with smoking a
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: GD brisket on a therapy zoom call with.
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: You, right, and of all people me because right, you know,
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: the reason people don't like me is because like people
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: don't get away with squat with me, Like I see
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: things as they are and I'm not saying I'm always right,
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: but you're not going to pull shit over on me.
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: That's just not going to happen. And so part of
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: me was like, you underestimate even me, like as your
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: client that you think I would think this is okay,
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: Like you don't even know me. But my point is
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: is that when you're in therapy with a good person
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: who you feel like understands you, even then it's really
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: hard even then. You know, there were years that I
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: went to therapy leaving feeling worse than when I came in,
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: leaving in tears, crying, panic attacks, Like it was really hard.
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: But once for me, once you get through some of
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: those tough things, it freed me in a way, and
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: I've noticed it frees others in a way that you
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: don't need all of these defenses to say, oh, well
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: it's this person's fault or that person's fault, Like now,
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: I can own my mistakes one hundred percent because I
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: have no ego that says, don't do that. My defenses
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: don't need to come up right.
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: Wow, it's just I know.
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: It's also complex work. Yeah, I've done the work. And
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: when people really do the work, it shows in our behaviors.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do the work. Does it shows?
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: Go?
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: Can't talk anymore? Bye, Just kidding.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: Bye.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: You're all like, hmm, she's masking with humor. Do you
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: see that? Did you see asking with humor?
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: Go ahead, Amy, We're here for you.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: We love you unconditionally, Okay, Amy.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: In fairness, I'm asked with humor all the time. I
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: have such an insanely dark sense of humor.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: I know we both do, and I love that.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we do.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: We put those parts out of the.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: Podcast, I say, let it fly.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people do have a dark
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: sense of humor, and when when we can expose it,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: I think it's comforting to some people. This thirteenth stepper thing.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: I feel like I have seen so much in my life,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: not only just personally, but also on TV and in
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: many situations, and this is like, I've never knew that
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: there was a like a term for it.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: But that's interesting.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: Now, let me ask you this when it comes to
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: the dynamics with Ray, and I know that, like, this
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: isn't going to become like a Ray and Karen podcast
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: right now between their dynamics entirely. However, we've got her,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: you know, trauma from her past, and we don't know
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: what Ray's.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: Done in their marriage. We don't know what.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: Things he has, and we know that he went through
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: that whole tax situation and all of the money issues
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: that they had, and that was a complete humiliating experience
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: for Karen, and she dreamed his ass for it on camera,
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: like was very once we got to the other side
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: of it some in some ways she would like admit
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: that that was not cool and they almost got divorced
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: over it, and how she had she stuck by his
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: side and she looked like the hero, you know, she
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: looked like the hero wife.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: Yep. And now, yeah, well, I think it's such an
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: interesting point because one of the things that fuels people
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: who specifically with alcoholism is fueled by resentment, and that
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: that's something that I also notice with Kim Richards. Kim
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: Richards would be always holding onto these resentments about she
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: how to support her family, her Kyle stole her goddamn house,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: like that whole thing. The one thing that will keep
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: us sick is holding onto resentments, because the saying in
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: the program is that holding onto resentment is like drinking
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: poison and wanting somebody else to die. So I think
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: that Karen is you know, listen, and I've been in
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 3: I've been with my husband for twenty four years. So
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: what I can say is decades long relationships are hardware, honey,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: They are hard work. And there are seasons of marriages
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: that are hard and if you're married or together for
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: over twenty years, there, I would say probably everybody has
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: come to their own points of like, what's going on here?
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: We have some problems, And so I think that what
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: happened was like Ray did that, and then she was
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: angry and resentful, which fueled her drinking. And now he
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: feels like, well, she stood by me, so I need
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: to stand by.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: Her, right, That's what I was thinking too.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I do. I do think there's probably some
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: truth to that. And I also think sometimes that, like
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: some of the things Karen does, I wonder if it's
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: to punish him for some of those mistakes. That he
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: made as well, and.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: What are some of the mistakes that he made if
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: in fact he did that hurt her that we don't
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: know about, and you know, what are thy dynamics? So
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: you know what's also interesting is she's like the grand dom,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: you know, I guess, and what how do people see
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: her in Potomac and or they'reabouts and around?
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: But like she said, Wendy lives in the boonies. She
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: was like, she lives in the boonies. I was like, Karen,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: you are too sick to be throwing shade right now.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: Like that was the other thing that you know, we
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: get this preview for the reunion, and that's the other
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: thing that bugs me. It's like, Karen, where is your humility?
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: You're trying to read Wendy about like being not being
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: a professor and letting you teach her or whatever your
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 3: stupid little read was. You should be saying that to
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: yourself in the mirror.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: Like you know what I mean.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 3: It's like, this is not I find it wild that
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: Karen gets out of jail, has this interview comes to
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: the Potomac reunion when she was in jail for the
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 3: entire season. It's almost like she's getting these special opportunities,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: she's being treated special because of being the grand dam
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: and that only serves to pollute re recovery.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and that's that sucks because that's where the
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: conflict is in terms of me personally and whomever reconciles
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: watching these shows, you know, in this situation where you're like,
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: why are you allowing her to come to the reunion? Like,
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: if you actually cared, you should not have her come.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: It's a it's going to be a toxic environment. If anything,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: do what you did with Andy and have like a
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: one on one with just Karen and Wendy if you
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: want to like film that or I mean, I don't
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: even know that.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: I just don't know.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: But also it's like, don't get me wrong, I'm completely
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: fascinated to see now Wendy's in the hot seat with
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: what she with what she's got going on, and now
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: Karen's going to be like, look at you, because now
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: this is another situation where she's it's like look at you.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: Now do as I say, because I'm on the other
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: side of my thing. Right, So now she's thirteen stepping
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: Wendy or and what is she alluding to with which
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: is Wendy knows I didn't thank her, and I wonder
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: if it has something to do with this scandal that
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: Wendy is.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: Enduring right now.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, or honestly, who knows, because Karen will you will
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: weaponize anything, if I'm being honest, She'll take anything and
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: run with it. So it could be a million things,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: but I want to know what it is. And you know,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 3: the other thing is too, I feel like when you're
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: coming from a place of recovery and humility, how we
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 3: help other people also says a lot about us in
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: terms of like, you know, she's like yelling at Wendy
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: and reading her, and it's like, well, where's your empathy,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: where's your humility? Which is what you would expect after
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: someone you know is in recovery from her position, right,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: It's just like the behaviors are Here's what the behaviors
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: are incongruent period, And that's what annoys me. It's like
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: what she's saying versus what she's doing, they don't match
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: their incongruent and that's telling me that Karen is missing something,
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: she's skipping something, she's.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: She's got more narcissist in your opinion, Oh, boy.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: Okay, so we all, all humans have narcissists traits and tendencies,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: including myself.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: I absolutely do not.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: I resent the fact that you are accusing me of that,
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: and I refuse to bring it up to my therapist
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: this week, which I'm not looking forward to going to. Anyway,
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: go on, fair enough, It has nothing to do with
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: me and my comedies, dialings and wanting to be on
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: camera or being the center of attention I have I
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: will not in any way except responsibility for that.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: So AnyWho, go on, as you're saying.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: Yes, I'm hearing other people who are narcissists you included.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: Yes, And I look at it on a spectrum, like
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: all clinically, I look at all things on a spectrum.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: Right, so interesting, one.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 3: Side, you're gonna have very little narcissistic traits and tendencies,
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: and then over to the right you're gonna have like disorder,
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 3: like where it's going to cross the line into disorder.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: Okay, gotcha.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: I will tell you that Karen has really significant narcissistic
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 3: traits and tendencies. However, I certainly can't label her right
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 3: because I'm not a therapist, and that's not appropriate for
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: me to do. But obviously it's apparent to anyone with
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 3: any semblance of observational skills that she has some very
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 3: serious narcissist traits and tendencies that are getting in her
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 3: own way.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she seems extremely delusional, which to me represents a
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: level of narcissism. And that's just the way I talk
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: as my own being my own therapist, like that she
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: seems totally.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: Well and in fairness, when someone is drinking for twenty
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: plus years abusing alcohol your brain. This is the other
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: part that I want to be really clear about. There
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 3: are medical issues that can happen after drinking alcohol and
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 3: excess for over twenty years, and what happens is your
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: brain kind of gets pickled and it takes. So there's
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: there's what most people don't realize is that there's the
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: immediate detox right, there's like the immediate couple of weeks
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: in a rehab center where you're detoxing. But there's also
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: something called post acute with draw syndrome pause for short paws,
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 3: and pause can last for years year, And so I
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: think that in terms of what Karen's presenting with, I
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: think there's a part of it that maybe physiological that
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: she just needs more time away from alcohol to get
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 3: to a space where her brain is functioning at a
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 3: level that it needs to be.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: That says a lot.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: That actually makes a lot of this interview make more
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: sense than I expect it. And I'm wondering, at what
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: point is she going to like she has an alcohol
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: problem clearly, But now I'm just so confused. Even though
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: we've discussed all this, I'm still walking away going she
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: doesn't think that she has an alcohol problem, and yet
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: for the last twenty years, So what was she doing
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: if in fact it was just allegedly some sort of
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: maybe a xanax type of situation, And if she was
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: drinking alcohol, is she saying that it was just such
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: a little amount that it affected the xanax getting to
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: that point, or we are we going to guess that
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: she full on was like drinking all day every day
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: along with pill.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 3: Well, all I can say that she admitted to drinking
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: all day every day twenty years ago, okay, and that
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 3: just again doesn't spontaneously improve or remit okay, And so
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 3: she's blaming. So if you're using xanax and alcohol, there
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: are there are going to be a facts like that
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: are extreme because xanax wound mixed with alcohol is an
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: absolute disaster and it can kill you. And the reason
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 3: why is that alcohol is a depressant and benzodiazepines can
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 3: also lower your respiration rate, your heart rate, and when
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: paired with a depressant like alcohol, She's actually lucky to
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 3: be alive if that's what she was taking. To be honest,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: so she could. But that's the point. She can blame
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: anything she wants. She can say the doctor gave me this,
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 3: the blah blah blah blah blah, the blah blah. She
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 3: clearly has an issue with alcohol that's been pressed for
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: at least two decades. She to me, it's less about
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 3: what you're using and how much, and it's more about
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: why are you using it and how is it impacting you.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 3: So Karen's her work has been impacted because she was
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 3: in jail and she couldn't film Potomac. Her relationships have
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: been affected because she's on the brink of divorce and
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: her children are worried sick. Her relationships with her friends
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: are impacted. So do you see how when your whole
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: life starts to become impacted by this substance that's inherently problematic.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 3: You could call it whatever you want. You can piss
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 3: on my leg and tell me it's raining, but that
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 3: cannot get lost in all of.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: This, well said, you know, I wonder what the Potomac
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: ladies have actually really seen. And I think Giselle has
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: seen and known things about her for years that she
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: is protecting. She's protecting her and on some level, you know,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: I've said it before because I've seen it. We've seen it,
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: and like, I really respect that. It's probably the most
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: human thing Gazelle's ever done, because she will scorch earth
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: under somebody, but she has scorched Karen a few times.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: But then I think she has realized the seriousness of
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: the situation and has pulled back because of that and
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: because of her kids. Yeah, I find that to be
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: really fascinating. Do you remember a long time ago when
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: Giselle said something about Karen being in Sing Sing Yes,
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: and then she completely walked it back. She's like, I
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: was just talking shit, I didn't mean that. That never happened. Like, no,
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: think that it would be interesting if Karen would ever
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: get to the point of being like be able to
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: tell her story in full.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 3: It is, But let me I think a good way
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 3: to kind of wrap this all up is that let's
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 3: hope she does. I hope Karen wins because when Karen wins,
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: her brain wins, her nervous system wins, Ray wins, her
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 3: kids win, the audience wins, because whenever someone represents recovery
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: in a beautiful way, it destigmatizes the whole thing. So
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 3: I hope Karen gets there. She can be a beautiful person.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 3: There's a lot I can enjoy about her. She deserves
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: to be happy. Whether you like Karen or not, we
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 3: can all agree she deserves happiness. She deserves to be healthy,
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: and so does everyone else. So I hope that she
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: gets there. But why I can be people don't like
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 3: me because I can be really harsh isn't the right word.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 3: But I take things really seriously and I speak to
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: serious things with a serious tone. And that is because
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: when you see people fighting for their lives, this is
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: not This is not tea for me, This is not drama.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 3: For me, this is watching somebody fight for their life.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 3: And so to me, that's really really serious, which is
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 3: why I talk about it so seriously and with such
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 3: an intensity. But I hope that Karen wins. I want
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 3: to see that. I want to see them all win
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: and happy and healthy.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: I can't believe we're watching this like I can't believe it.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: And real quick, I just want to say, when I
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: was asking you if, in your opinion, Karen is a narcissist,
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: it just reminded me. The reason why I said that
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: is because when Teresa went to prison and she came out,
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: we all thought, you know, well, this was would be
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: the time and the place for her to have some
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: humility and she had some softness, she had a little
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: more understanding that, but she didn't. She was the same person, correct,
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: But you know, she didn't have an addiction problem to
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: any kind of substance, so you know, she didn't need
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: to work any steps in order to get there. However,
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: you'd think that being in a situation like that, you
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: would do other types of work. And yet you know,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: when she came out, it was all completely the same.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: So for Karen to go in there, she did do
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: some work, which I applaud she did, and she came out.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: But my god, Melissa, with these housewives, I mean, prison,
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: the addictions, it's so intense what we see, and.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 3: It is which is why I'm grateful that I can
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 3: actually do something to help people, because people will listen
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 3: to this and they'll understand addiction in a better way though.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: That's really they'll have.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the point of this podcast really, and may
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: more specifically, I mean your podcast, which is that in
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: the world of reality television, this cuckoo craziness that you
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: go to as an escape because it makes you feel
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: better about yourself, or you become invested in these people
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: who are somewhat unhealthy and egotistical and you know, or
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: with their glam squads. At the end of the day,
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: they are putting their lives on the line essentially and
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: showing us the dirtiest of dirty, even though they think
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: it's shiny and beautiful.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: At the end of the day.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: Here you're able to speak on such a serious matter
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: and help people who are watching it maybe get a
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: handle on someone in their lives or some or maybe
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: their own or you know. Your objective here is really
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: it's the best one I've seen as far as an
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: angle on podcasts in the world of reality television.
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 3: Well, you're a little biased, Amy, because you gave me
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 3: my start, but I appreciate.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: That I was why I know you so that you
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: would say that.
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 3: No, I honestly nosed, but.
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: I actually know I'm not though, because I would say, like,
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: this is why I like the clinical diagnosis of it,
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: because no one's doing this, and then and doing it well, like.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: No one's doing it, and if they are, they're not
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: doing it like you.
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: And and then also like the Bravo docket and they
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: have the law angle of it. These are the things
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: that we don't know as pedestrians that are going in.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm doing impressions and I'm kicking around fun ideas,
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: but this is really a beautiful thing that we can
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: take away. And I really loved that Andy did this interview.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: Made me think, is he conflicted with this show and
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: things like that, but at the end of the day
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: he needs to walk away and know like this is
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: the you know, this is real stuff and we are
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: able to see this, and thankfully Karen is showing us so.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 3: For sure, for sure, because the one thing I know
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 3: for sure is that it takes a village to work
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 3: to overcome or address any issue that humans suffer from. Right,
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 3: any issue, it does take a village. We cannot do
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 3: it ourselves. We need help, We deserve help. It's okay
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 3: to ask for help. And I think that Karen, at
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: the end of the day, you know, and these housewives
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 3: that you talk about, they're flawed and just like all
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 3: humans are. But I hope that really what I've done
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 3: too is validate people in recovery, because a lot of
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 3: people in recovery, including Chef Stewart O'Keefe came into my comments.
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 3: By the way, Chef stew came right into my comments
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 3: and said, thank you for talking about this, because you know,
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 3: he has some experience in this area, and I you know,
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 3: people came into the comments, including him to say, you know,
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 3: this interview fell off, but I wasn't sure why. So
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 3: thank you for you know, kind of talking about this.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 3: Because for people who are in recovery, I imagine that
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 3: this could be very triggering, it could be very invalidating.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 3: So hopefully that's been helpful as well.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so too.
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: So Hug a therapist, Hug a housewife.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 3: Hug each other. Yeah, hug yourself, Hug your neighbors, Hug humanity.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 3: I mean, let's we all need a damn hug and
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 3: a good cry.
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so glad to be able to talk to
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: you about this, so thanks, and I love having our
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: Darling Bish hour and everyone, thank you so much for listening.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: Of course, my podcast Drama Darling is always up on
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: the public Drama Darling anywhere. Listen to podcasts and if
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: you want more bonus episodes and video and ad free,
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: head on over to patreon dot com slash drama Darling
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: and Melissa. Where can people find you?
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 3: You can find me on Instagram at your bish Therapist,
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 3: where I will post some of these interpretations and engage
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 3: with people in the comments, which is really fun. Well,
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 3: sometimes it's less fun and more annoying because people yell
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 3: at me and they say mean things. But you know,
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 3: I manage that. Listen. Being a therapist has prepared me
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 3: my whole life for being not liked. I've had people
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 3: threatened to kill me clients. I've had people throw chairs
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 3: at me. I've had people, you know, sometimes being a
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 3: helper like so you're on the real house line, I
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 3: mean base the real therapist of yeah, yeah, that should
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 3: be a show. That would be wild. I mean you
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 3: couldn't do it, but you know whatever. So but in
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 3: all seriousness, I appreciate the community over on Instagram and also,
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 3: of course, just like Amy, I am on Patreon, whereas
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 3: really where we have so much of a key key
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 3: we do full video. We're doing a Bravo book club, Amy,
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 3: I don't know if I told you that. Yeah, amazing,
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 3: And guess what we're going to do. We're going to
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 3: do the book that Miss Amy Phillips was the voice
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 3: narrator for it.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: All Diamonds and Rose we are.
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's like doing a Bible. I mean
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: you're really jumping in.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: That's a.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's an homage to our Darling Bush.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: Miss aam so wow. I'm honored.
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: So yeah, you got to listen to the audiobook to
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: get my narration, so yeah, yeah, and that's so cool.
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: Melissa, thank you.
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and by Dave Quinn of course, so yes, amazing. Yeah,
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh yeah, I read it all.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we don't want to worry author, but right, but Amy,
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 3: thank you so much. I love our Darling Bush hours
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 3: and I have to say I've been getting a lot
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 3: of really great feedback from them, so I'm glad that
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 3: you know me. It's wonderful when we genuinely love and
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 3: appreciate each other and then the audience genuinely loves it,
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 3: and I'm just really grateful.
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: So thank you, thank you, and thanks you guys for
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: listening and being so supportive. Go ahead and give our
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: individual podcasts five star reviews. Say something nice. We can
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: always use it, and we'll see you next month. Bye
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: bye