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How to Scare a Fascist w/ Naomi Klein · Computer Says Maybe

• Alix: [00:00:00] Hey there. Welcome to Computer Says maybe this is your host, Alix Dunn, and I am very excited about this week's episode. We have an interview with someone who I think has. One of the most important skills of our time, which is an ability to see the world as it is, see the darkness, see the direction of travel, understand it, engage with it, but at the same time, engage in a practice of hope and a practice of seeing the people that are fighting to change that world and seeing a. Direction of travel. That's also exciting because it feels like all of the energy and muscle and sort of human power, we need to counter that darkness. The guest is Naomi Klein, who I would go so far as to say has shaped a lot of my politics because I think she's often used that skill of being able to just like cut through [00:01:00] all of the indoctrination or sort of veneer of something in the world and just kind of. Tell you things and teach you things and explain things in such a crystal clear way that makes you see the world just as it is. And a lot of times it's not very pretty. Her books, doppelganger and the Shock Doctrine are two that have like really shaped my understanding, both of our information environment and the kind of disorientation were all. Experiencing and then the shock doctrine, understanding how capital works and how geopolitics functions to allow capital to do what it wants to, whoever it wants. And both of those books and her other books and writing as well have just really helped me process what I'm seeing in the world in a way that isn't just about understanding, but it's also about action. And I've always appreciated her twin ability. To work in those two modes, and we talk a little bit about that in the conversation. Um, right now she's working on a new book, appropriately titled End Times Fascism, um, where it feels like we're at like the final boss of [00:02:00] all of the political adversaries. She's been preparing us for all these years. So we have a wide ranging conversation in which she frames fascism as capitalism's worst mood, which I feel like is worth lifting up of all of the interesting observations she makes. So I don't wanna say much more. And let's just go to Naomi Klein. Naomi: Asra Taylor and I wrote this piece. Called the Rise of End Times fascism. It came out in April, and it was an attempt to sort of understand what are the sort of continuities with the past of what we're seeing from Trump, but also this sort of international web of proto fascists. They're all orbiting around him and they're very connected and what is new and how it's intersecting with. Planetary scale, existential risk, which I think so much talk of fascism [00:03:00] is through the rear view mirror. So we have like a checklist of like, did they do this or that? You know, and, and I think it is useful, and I think a lot of people have. Understood some really important principles and put them into practice in these absolutely murderous, uh, months. Thinking about Minneapolis, just doing everything right, you know, in terms of how to fight fascism. Alix: I'm so proud of them. I like, I like really, you know, and all the horrors. It is absolutely heartwarming and incredible. Like, see what happens when a community actually does the work and organizes and says, absolutely not. Credible every day. Incredible. Kind of keeps me going. Yeah, Naomi: a hundred percent. And, and also the fact that people understand it as an accumulation of their activist, an organizing history, that it isn't like it wasn't born yesterday. And it challenges this kind of silly linear understanding of how rumors work. Right. And then it's like, oh, that failed and then died, you know? And it's like, no. That for decades we compost everything. [00:04:00] Um, yeah. So. But I do think that those kind of guidebook is like, don't obey in advance, like that's useful. Like I think Timothy Snyder's helped us, but I don't believe that they explain everything about what we're seeing. And I think that the sort of particular derangement of understanding that we are in a time of planetary collapse and making it worse as fast as we can. Is a particular kind of apocalyp tism that is special and new to our topic. So we wrote this article trying to kind of name some of that, pick out what is a continuity and what is something particular and is gonna shape what we see. You know, and it's very connected to tech, right? Because this is tech fascism. And. Is very connected to these super rich dudes who really don't believe that they have to share this planet with us. You know, in their minds they've already left. So we turned it into a book. So it was, what, 6,000 words and now it's might be many more. Alix: You've written enough books, you must know. Do you like writing [00:05:00] books or is it like a thing that you have to do once an idea takes root? Naomi: I really love research, but this book has been particularly hard because. Of the subject matter. And also we made this decision that we wanted to intervene in the midterm election. So it's a crashed book like I've never, ever done, so that, you know, we, we just. Gotten to a full draft. It's going into copy editing next month. It's gonna be out in September. Um, okay. Which, that seems far away, but is not by Sanders. A book, yeah, book. Alix: September, 2028 would be my, like, Naomi: yeah. So, so it's, it hasn't been fun and nor should a book about end times fascism be fun. Let's be honest. You know, you know, it's the first time I've co-written and I have, I feel really grateful to have had a partner in this. Being in this alone would've made it much, much harder. So just being able to be like, I'm maxed out today with fascism. Can you carry it a little bit today? So yeah, [00:06:00] that has made it better. And it's fun to work with a friend, but sometimes writing is delightful. Like, you know, I was thinking when I couldn't sleep last night, I was like, oh, doppelganger, that was fun. Like that was a book that no one asked me to write. It was a secret book. I wrote it without, it's a funny Alix: book also. Yeah. Naomi: But it was like writing a book. Just because I wanted to, I didn't have an agent. I didn't have a publisher. Like I am, wrote 10 chapters before telling anybody in the industry that I was writing a book. I, I worked with a writing coach, but I didn't, I didn't work with anybody outside of that. And that was just like, it was like a secret, you know, like I can't wait to get back to writing of list fun book. But yeah, this, this book has been different. Um, every book's different. But I always feel better once every writer says this, right? Like once you've done it, like once you've cracked something, once you've gotten to that point of lucid, you're like, oh, even when it's something really bleak, maybe even, especially when it's something really bleak, right? And you get this illusion of control because, because you, you understand [00:07:00] something you didn't understand before. You know? And I think we, I forget if we talked about this or not, but that to me is like the saddest thing about. What's happening with large language models, students are depriving themselves of that moment when you actually get through the chaos and the muck and you're like, I earned this conclusion. You know? Alix: It's the earning part. Yeah. It's like that pain that comes right before unlocking something. And I feel like that's the, have you seen the friction maxing piece someone was writing about, like basically tech is proposing removing friction, but like. Most of what's good about life is friction. Friction. Um, and it's like, like what are we optimizing for? What do you have at the other end of that? Not very much of meaning, which is Yeah, it's dark. Naomi: I mean it is. So they really have done that with these instant, just, I mean, obviously there's so much friction behind it and so much friction that's hidden what they've done to writing is extraordinary. Alix: But they don't like it. Like there's something they can't do it. Right. I hate thinking. Yeah. Which is also [00:08:00] really interesting to like watch. I can't remember who said it, but I saw in the last few days someone describing the current proposition of the tech industry is to destroy white collar work in the way that automation was designed to destroy blue collar work. And like I, I know that, but like when you really think about that being the value proposition and the fact that they just like hate the fact that there's these very skilled people that they have to employ and it drives them nuts and they're like, how do we spend all of Earth's resources. To not have to pay people a living wage because they have knowledge that I don't have. It's just such a, there's like, there's a spike to it. But back to the I I think it's interesting. Doppelganger was like a fun book. 'cause I actually found it really helpful for kind of stopping the spin of disorientation of the information environment for just a second to like. Dig into it with a little bit of specificity and it feels like that is necessary to be able to do before you can talk about the way that technology connects with the rise of fascism. Now it feels like the information environment you described is the foundation on top of this [00:09:00] new form of fascism and like they're doing interesting things with technology, but it is actually this like soup we're in that some of the stuff that, that they tried it like 20 years ago, it wouldn't have worked because there like was a different. Media environment, but I don't know. Do you feel like they would be able to do what they're doing successfully if they hadn't created this swamp of information that's so algorithmically charged, but also just like really disorienting? Naomi: Absolutely not. I mean, disorienting and isolating, right? You're, you're, you're confused alone. You know, Erin talked, wrote a lot about the intersection of atomization and loneliness and fascism and. This information environment is anonymization, momentous machine. Right. With the illusion of, you know, preying on our desire to connect with one another and or originally the internet did do that. I've heard you say it. I mean, we met so many amazing people, like through the internet, it did not have to be this way. Right? But then I think scrambling our, our synapses, I mean, I wrote about this in doppelganger, like [00:10:00] a feeling the first time I went on Twitter. I remember it so vividly of just feeling like my brain was being scrambled by. The lack of any narrative, right? It's a non sequitur machine, right? Your your brain is, is trying to make connections. 'cause that's what our Bruins do. And it's only become more of a, a non sequitur machine because at least it used to be like, okay, this is at least the order in which people posted these things. Right? Alix: Yeah. Naomi: So I understand Alix: it's like in a, a non sequitur machine in a blender now. Yeah. Um, but I, I feel like it's also evolved from like. Do you remember when people used to tweet that? Like they're standing in line at a coffee shop or something? Like they're like the most Yeah. These like life updates. Mm-hmm. That I feel like people stopped. Naomi: I'm eating a sandwich. Yeah. Yeah. I exist in real world. I am an ate person. Alix: And it felt like that, it felt like people screaming, being like, I have a physical body, and I'm like doing something. And now I don't. I mean it's, it's completely obviously different now, but I think that non sequitur or like your brain's response to trying to [00:11:00] find patterns. Also your brain's response to trying to come up with something like a short argument, I think also has like rotted our brain's ability to like sync arguments together and like link something into something bigger. This is what I've been thinking about a lot, is that I've been working in this space for a little bit over 15 years and the whole time has been people shouting as loud as they can, trying to influence policy makers, trying to influence the general public. On the fact that there was this massive accumulation of power happening. It's hard to do that in a compelling, effective way when you haven't seen how the power is exercised. And I feel like we've sort of crossed this Rubicon where now the power is being exercised and it's terrifying. 'cause it's like they've been spending so much time laying these planks using goodwill to deflect from, you know, the lack of accountability, the lack of governance, the kind of scale of these systems, the, you know. Collapse of campaign finance. At the same time you have the growth of these companies. At the same time you have this like [00:12:00] center left sense that big tech is green growth or it's good and like, you know, you have this like swirl around this stuff that just gave them so much space to accumulate so much power. Has there ever been an industry that's been able to position itself in that way vis-a-vis capital, public imagination, owning, I mean, I feel like maybe rail, I don't know. Naomi: I think people knew that they were robber barons, you know? I think, I think they retroactively marketed themselves as do gooders and, and people who care about libraries and art after they had looted everything. That's my understanding of it. Of the ccp? Alix: Yeah. After the public promise was broken, then there was this process of repair Naomi: that was also like early enough in the settler colonial. History of the United States that the veneer was manifest destiny like they were, that was their do goodish. It was the fake enlightenment of colonialism that they were partnered in and then [00:13:00] in the face of backlash, they invested in the public sphere more. But no, I don't think there's ever been like, I mean, if we think about early Google and don't be evil, and I mean, I, I think this is unprecedented and I think that it needs to be understood as we are at the finish line. Of a half century long counter-revolution against the New Deal and the post World War II social welfare state. And that's what quote unquote globalization was. And that's what created this obscene level of wealth concentration, right? Like so many of these billionaires. Became billionaires from privatization, getting the telecom of Mexico or whatever, like so, and I think that it was really important as this counter revolution was going on to. Claim that this was going to be better than the welfare state. There were gonna be all these benefits and that's why these companies built campuses with lots of [00:14:00] snacks and who needs unions, and Trump just stands for the type of rich guy. They've all wanted to be all along and they all were all along, which is what we're all seeing in the Epstein files, right, of just like the thing about why you wanna be rich is to do whatever the fuck you want. The point of being filthy rich is to not have the rules apply to you. That's the fun part. That is why you do it. That is the whole goal. And they were all pretending, like, you know, Google is having town hall meetings with their workers going like, tell me your feelings. And it's like, no, I actually don't wanna know what you think because I'm the boss. And so they felt that they needed to. Perform this charade. I don't know if they were conscious of it as a charade the whole time. I think maybe some of them were and some of them weren't. But you know, you look at Bezos, you know, we're talking the day or two, a couple days after he fired 15 climate journalists. He came into save media, remember? You know, I mean, so it's just the [00:15:00] masks are all dropping and I think that that's what Trump represents to them, is we don't have to pretend anymore. And he never pretended, 'cause he was stuck in the 1980s, never changed. Right? Like all the fake enlightenment of the nineties, he just never participated. And he's frozen in time and they're just like, oh. That looks great. That's the Epstein story is just the seedier part Alix: of Davos. Naomi: You Alix: know, Naomi: and Bezos, you know, like he started off really doing a number on the book industry, right? That was his first accomplishment. They were always going after libraries. They were always going after universities. And, but they needed to do those things to make us feel better. Like they also needed to fund university departments and they also needed to buy a newspaper and do all of that, right? And, and fund climate action and all of that. And now they're realizing that they've gotten rich enough that they don't need to do any of those things and now they can just destroy everything that's become dependent on them. I don't know if that was the [00:16:00] game plan. I think they actually liked to liked their enlightened phase. They enjoyed that too, but now they're enjoying a whole other phase. But what you're talking about in terms of the fascism and, and the monopoly on truth, right? This is what's scary is that, and this is why I think we have to understand history and I think a lot about Walter Benjamin's. Angel of history and the idea of, you know, we think about history as like. Singular events in the angel of history sees wreckage piled on wreckage, right? And like the thing about, if we think about piles of wreckage, like they have a life force like the wreckage interacts with itself. It creates new things, right? It creates new weather systems and it creates new chemical compounds. And so. I think that that's what's happening. I just don't think that we've seen anything quite like the power that has accumulated in tech. I think that this idea that you can have a truth machine, right, which is what Musk sees grok, right? And why he's so obsessed with [00:17:00] Wikipedia, right. As a rival kind of other place that people go to get answers and, and I think it's broader than that. I think it's universities, I think it's media. I think it's an evolution. I think it's an accumulation. I, I think that they thought that they could kind of coexist and they didn't come in be like, this is our master plan. We are going to be the only source of information. People iterate their rationales as they go. But the other thing is that impunity accumulates, and I think that this is what worries me is that the sort of just this raw criminality of our elite class right now almost necessitates the destruction of any institution that could hold them accountable. It's just worrying to watch the criminality of Musk, right. And what ROCK is doing, you know? And then it's like, I don't know if you notice, but the UN just said that they might need to just close their headquarters and lay off thousands of people, because that's also the game. The game is any institution that. Could hold anyone accountable that could allow for actual international cooperation and any kind of [00:18:00] rules-based order has to strike it. Vote. Yeah. You can't, you can't actively participate in a genocide in front of everyone's eyes, you know, and not wanna do that. That's why they went after Francesca Alza the, the day after she, yeah. Published her report on all the people who economically benefited from the genocide. Alix: Yeah. Naomi: You know, such a good Alix: report. She's Naomi: so Alix: brave Naomi: and she can't book a hotel room. Because she is under subsidiary sanctions. Alix: So what do you so in, in an, even if it is an unprecedented kind of situation with different factors coming together to converge on this moment of just extreme rise of fascism at a level. We can't like wrap our heads around are there any lessons? About how to think about the role of institutions or like where does power get checked? And I realize that part of it is organizing, but like when you think about institutional reform or institutional action, like what? What works? Naomi: So I think that important thing that we need to understand is that we have great ideas about what to do on our side of [00:19:00] all the stuff coming out of and now. There's so much work that's been done. There have been moments that I've been incredibly frustrated with the left, where we've, you know, blown moments where we had a lot of sort of street power and we didn't have any demands. Like Occupy Wall Street was frustrating, you know, because it was like, do we need demands? I think we do. You know? Um, and you know, there've been moments where we've had like millions of people on the streets and it was like. What do you want? Something, you know? Alix: Yeah. Something really badly. It's really important. Naomi: Um, you know, I've been to all those marches. I think that we have learned those lessons in the past 15 years and gotten our shit together and have all kinds of fantastic plans. And the problem is not that we don't know what to do about ai, not that we don't know what to do about deep fakes. Not that the mechanisms aren't there. We've been doing this work and that is why they're going after us. Alix: So you see this as a backlash against. Organized resistance. Naomi: Yeah. My analysis of of fascism is that it's capitalism's worst [00:20:00] mood, um, Alix: into it. It's a good book title Naomi: and so I think that it's an undercurrent of the history of modernity. That's not the same as saying we're always fascist all the time. We're always fascist somewhere all the time, but it emerges. In these kind of spasms. Right. And here when I'm, I'm talking about fascism. I'm not just talking about capital F fascism, Mussolini standing up and saying We are the fascist. I'm talking about all of the tributaries that fed into that and all of the things that the European fascists in the twenties and thirties and forties learned from German genocide in southwest Africa against the Naman Herrero and all the things that they learned from. Jim Crow race law, and all the things they learned about ghettoization from all of the previous concentration camps and on and on and on. So all of the voices from the global south, from black scholars in the United States who were [00:21:00] saying, this is familiar. This is not a rupture, and this is are saying this is the boomerang. Like all of that, right? Fascism is not. Event. It's not one thing that happened once and we're worried about repeating. It's this through line. It can happen in one part of an empire and not another. It can happen, you know, in the colonies and not the metropol. It can happen in one part of a country and not another part, and it happens. And when it has these spasms, it tends to be in a moment of real crisis, of real systemic crisis. And when the left. Poses a credible threat of Redistributive power from below. So if we think about the example that most people think about when they think about fascism, you have multiple systemic crises and you have wreckage from the first World War, complete decimation punishing sanctions. Then you get the Great Depression, and you also have the Spanish flu. Okay? Things are not going well in the United States. You have the Dust Bowl, you know, I [00:22:00] mean, so you also have a major ecological crisis. You'll have the Russian Revolution and you know, just 10 years earlier or, or just five years before Mussolini came to power. So every government is terrified that they're gonna have an actual full on socialist revolution in their country. Right. So I don't think we're in a moment like that. So another example I, I would point to is Latin America in the seventies where we had a wave of fascist dictators. Who, I mean in the case of pinot shit. Our current fascists are big fans of wear t-shirts that say Pinoche did nothing wrong. Free helicopter rides for leftists. I would say they're most influenced by Pinot, she more than anyone else. So you know you have stagnation and hyperinflation and then you have democratic socialists being elected. You have Salvador Ande, you also have militant groups in Argentina. Your Why Brazil, who are doing things like kidnapping CEOs. So that sort of piner of, there's a real crisis. People are starting to look at the [00:23:00] system. The anger could go up. There's real, real worry about that. And we need to redirect that anger. We need to come up with a scapegoat and we need to crush the left really, really hard. So, you know, that aspect of, of European fascism, I think you know, it always, well, they always add the communist to the list of people, you know, but I don't think that we really learn the extent to which it was animated by hatred. Of socialists and communists and fear of, of the Russian revolution spreading. So it's hard to think about our moment as being a kind of pre-revolutionary moment. I don't know what you think about this. I'm curious because you know, you listen to some of these tech guys and they clearly fear pitchforks like they feel under siege, right? And we look at it and we're like, what are you complaining about? You've been on a nonstop. Winning streak. Like you look at their reactions to the proposed 5% wealth tax one time in California, and they're acting like it's the Russian Revolution. They're coming for our mansions. You know, I think we're [00:24:00] dealing with a combination of people who are incredibly cut off from reality. I think they also know that they've gotten away with something they shouldn't have gotten away with. I think there's a lot of factors going on, and I think that we should give ourselves some credit on the left for actually. Representing a, a credible threat. And that's a little hard to accept because most of us are focused on all of the things we screwed up and all of our losses, and we feel really weak and vulnerable. There's lots of truth there too, but I think if you look at it from their perspective, they see Occupy Wall Street. They see Bernie's first campaign. They see Jeremy Corbin winning the labor, you know, and, and they're running anti billionaire campaigns, right. They see a OC. They see, you know, every billionaire is a policy failure, and then they see Bernie coming back in 2020 and getting even further. I also think that they see like people laugh or don't know what to make of the fact that Peter Thiel keeps saying, [00:25:00] Greta Thunberg as the antichrist, or might be the antichrist. He said it like six times. You know, it's not like a small thing. He's developed this theory of his, he said it first at heretic, and then he thought it was so great. He should give four lectures. He said it to the New York Times, like, he's really believes this. And my first reaction was like, this is insane. You know, what a bully. You're making her unsafe. I had a range of reactions as someone who knows and loves Greta. And the more I think about it, the more I think, I think they know this is precarious what they have. Because if you think about Greta age 17, she holds up a sign and sits Alix: outside of parliament's, like, yeah. Naomi: And next thing you know, there are millions of people in the street and it goes on for a couple years because. This whole thing is super precarious. Like we don't talk about climate and then suddenly says, let's talk about it. We're in a climate crisis, and everyone's like, yeah, let's talk about that. And I think this is why they all, they wanna get rid of the un. You know? [00:26:00] It's not as simple as saying like, okay, the left is on the verge of power. It's a pre-revolutionary moment, but I think we should take seriously that we have power enough to scare them. Enough for them to really wanna crush us. And if you look at Minneapolis and you look at the way Minneapolis, like that ability to organize a general strike, flood the streets day after day after day after day, every organizer's like, we didn't start this with ice. We have been building this, we have a deep history in the state of populism, but people were trained in in BLM uprisings and they were. They're climate activists. Nothing goes to waste. And even, you know, Z's campaign, a hundred thousand volunteers, that's because the left built institutions, they built DSA and even the way he's been able to staff up with such skilled people, I think speaks to the fact that the left has built a bench that has taken policy seriously. So I think they are both overestimating our strengths. We should not [00:27:00] underestimate it, you know, Alix: but if you, so, so this, this, they're unique and maybe a different species. And this, like, one thing that I've struggled with, and I feel like it connects probably with historical fascism in a way that's useful, is that the device of speculation and fantasies about ai. So both the utopian vision of AI is gonna solve climate or whatever. Mm-hmm. Um, and then the like. AI is gonna kill us all in like two months. Ru ha. Benjamin calls him two sides of the same Bitcoin, um, which I really appreciate. Yeah. Um, but I feel like there's this fantastical structure that they've created and then forced the public into that then kind of limits the parameter of conversation about AI in a way that is futuristic and not here. I imagine it's not just a press. Populations control. Major institutions align resources in a way that retrenches your power, et cetera, et cetera. There's also this like futuristic narrative function within fascism. Can you talk a little bit about like how those kinds of fantasies [00:28:00] have created infrastructure to maintain this power and politic? Naomi: Yeah. I mean, I don't know what I can add beyond what you're saying, but it is definitely one of the narratives. I don't think there's a single narrative that sustains this. I think there's different versions of it. I think Peter Thiel thinks that he is uplifting. Sort of a nucleus of the next stage of humanity, right? It's not all of us. Definitely like a prestige project of who is going to survive and go to the next realm. This is why we and look forever. Yeah, I mean, this is why end times is a helpful kind of narrative structure because it, it is a biblical story that they're telling, like this is such a deeply encoded book of revelation like story, and it's not just revelation. It, it's the flood, you know? It's the arc. It's, it's the sacred. Text of monotheistic religion and, and the story is there will be a great battle, a great cataclysm, and lots of people will die too bad for them. But the, but the chosen people, the good [00:29:00] people, the, the blessed people will have the most beautiful, shiny city and that city will bathe the rest of the world in light. And then things will be so wonderful for a thousand years. I mean, like that is literally the stars they're telling about ai, right? Yeah. So I think that that story has done a lot of damage in the world. You know, I mean, Columbus was looking for new Jerusalem, but I do think that they can't do what they're doing. They, I think they need to believe that they are supreme, that they are better, that it's a straight up supremacist, genocidal story that they're telling. But it is also a story of salvation. It isn't just, we're gonna have like. A bunker or we're gonna upload our consciousness. It is, it's a story of, of the next stage of, of human evolution. Just like the story of, of Revelation, right? And so, you know, what, what Rob Benjamin is saying about them being flip sides of the same coin. It's the same story in the Bible, right? Like the, the, the apocalypse is what gives birth to the shining city of gold. Alix: Yeah, that's super interesting. I hadn't actually [00:30:00] connected apocalyptic with salvation. I've heard this, your arguments as separate, but it's true. Um, in a lot of those religions, the threat of being one of the people that is killed in the apocalypse is what is supposed to motivate you to do the things that help you be saved as well. I remember reading shock doctrine, like I remember very vividly reading it and being like. Shocked. Um, but the, the world you were describing was like so dark and structurally broken, but it was real, and it was insightful and like helpful. I was like, I don't know, 22 or something. And I, I wonder like, what is it like to think so clearly and so structurally about what's broken when, like, how do you, how do you maintain a sense of like, like how do you do it? Because I am, I, I ha I remember also being like, that's. I can't. I was like looking stuff up. I was like, I was like learning. I had been indoctrinated in an American high school and college and then started reading these things and was like, oh my God. And then like [00:31:00] learning all this stuff and I remember being like. I don't know if I can internalize all of that because if I did, I don't know how I would like put one foot in front of the other and like live in this world because it's so kind of fucked. I don't know, like how do you, how are you able to like move between modes of like, this is structural and now I'm gonna do emergence strategy and I'm just gonna be a really good neighbor and I'm gonna be a really good collaborator and now I'm gonna go back to the structural stuff. Or like how do you do it? Naomi: I think that book. Sort of book tunnel, like really going very deep into an area like that. I need to balance it out. I don't usually do it while I'm writing it like that. Usually I really go very deep in, and you're talking to me at a point where I've been like very deep. Like I Alix: don't, but like now, like Are you okay? Is what? Just checking in here as you. Naomi: No, I mean, I think. Because I am a, a movement writer, you know, like I, yeah. I'm not somebody who keeps movements away from me to like prove my objectivity. You know, I, [00:32:00] I've had this really kind of special experience of when I wrote my first book in my twenties, it came out. Sort of like predicting that there was gonna be this alter globalization movement that didn't yet exist called no, no logo. And it came out just as that movement was in Seattle, on the streets and actually at the publisher's house when Seattle happened. And then there was just this wave of global organizing and no logo was like, and I was, you know, I was 30 when the book came out and, and it was like getting like the backdoor key to every place I went to. Like, I would just get brought to like anarchist. Squats and you know, and I was just like learning about all these movements everywhere I went and. So before I cared about burning carbons, I went all over the place for two years. So like, you know, I do like the kind of structural thinking and then I just kind of, but I had this experience with my first book where I just kind of got like picked up by this movement and then just was part of it. Like there was no kind of difference between. The writing the book and being part of the movement. And I've never sought that [00:33:00] difference. You know, it's a wonderful experience. I would wish it for any writer, like to actually be able to be part of a movement that you write about. You know? And even with the shock doctrine, you know, that came out in 2007, 2008, financial crisis happens. People are in the streets going, we will pay for your crisis. And you know, I was able to be part of. You know, thinking with movements around the world that we're responding, like it's not, I've never just written, I've always, I've had like periods. I, I think I have a bit of a rare personality type where I both have almost as sick capacity to be by myself and, and, and. Right. And then I actually really like people. Like I, I like being, I love being in movements, you know, I, and I feel so grateful and nourished and. In love with, with the movements I've been a part of. So like I hope, I hope this one helps, you know, I mean that's why we're trying to get it out as a tool and, but like being able to be a New York the night mom, Donny one, you know, that'll keep me going for a long [00:34:00] time. You know, and having been part of Jewish Voice for Peace, like during the genocide and being able to, you know, think with. Folks in that movement, like I could definitely not do this work if I wasn't part of movements that are putting ideas into action all the time. You know? And my books are in conversation with movements like they're reporting on the movements. It's a back and forth, you know? And you know, even the shock doctrine, you know, came out and there was already the pink tide sweeping Latin America. So it felt like things are changing, like something is happening with shock. Is wearing off. I am quoted in the book this amazing Argentinian investigative journalist in militant named Rudolfo Walsh, who was murdered by the military dictatorship in Argentina. And in his last piece of writing, he wrote this open letter to the military, junta mailed. It got killed. And in the letter he said, he predicts that it'll. He said 25 years with the shock of the torture to wear off and for people to rise again. [00:35:00] And he was like right on top. You know, I, I think what's hard for me is that I feel like I really do know what bastards these people are like. I think I, I feel like, I hope people know that they will like look what they did in Gaza. And so what has happened? With the political organizing, it's fucking Alix: evil. I Naomi: like they're evil. They're like, Alix: yeah. Naomi: And when they say free helicopter rides for leftists, they mean it. They know what they're talking about. I was just talking about this with Astra, like I lived in Argentina for a year and interview a lot of people who survived the military dictatorship and, you know, had been tortured and people talked about like 30,000 people were disappeared off the streets in, in Argentina or dis, well, more than that were disappeared off the streets. 30,000 people never came back. So they would disappeared in broad daylight. And I always get the translation wrong, but there was this thing of like, did people know? Did people not know? And they, they were, and I quoted it in the Shock Talk, and they said like, everybody knew what nobody could deny. [00:36:00] So it was this state of double consciousness where it was like you, you could hear the screams and people would draw their blinds and, and so when I think about what's happening in Minneapolis, right, the fact that people, like people know this history, this is why it really does matter that people have looked, have looked to the past. 'cause there's the fact that people understood that they had to be in the streets, that the risks that they were taking were absolutely worth it. Like, this is how you fight fascism. This is how you keep the next stage from coming. 'cause there is a next stage, like, I guess this is what I. Feel about this moment that I think we really do need to know is that they'll take it as far as they can take it. We really need to understand that. And they're in a lineage, and they're in a history, and they know their history and their history has thrown through lot of helicopters and tortured them to death. We need to know that, and we need to know that when we stop them and when we organize in public, when we refuse to go underground, which doesn't mean not being careful about security, be careful about security, but when we. Are proud of our activism. And when we say it out loud, that is our protection, you know, [00:37:00] because actually people are with us. That's what we're seeing. And like every bit of organizing that we do, like he said, like all the organizing that was done to elect Momani in New York is the organizing that will happen when there's another superstorm in New York. Like is the organizing that's gonna happen when ICE comes is already happening? Alix: It's like the real social network. Like essentially, seriously, like there's something beyond where it's like. Yeah, like I, I, I, it feels like all of this is different because it's visualized on the internet, but it being visualized has been distorted in a way that I think has then been used against it. And I, but I think that there's the next step is that we now have this level of public consciousness of what's happening. We have a sense that we live in a society, and now it's figuring out how do you get people to take the next step, which is like, social networks are wonderful when they're in person, when you actually, and, and now people, I think, see. A much bigger world than they did 15 years ago. And I think there's benefit to that, but only if we're able to transition out of these cul-de-sacs that these billionaires own and into actual [00:38:00] neighborhoods. And I think that that's like the, it feels like to me that that dam is breaking, that people are starting with COVID, the feeling of mutual aid. You know, this feeling that like. Tijuana Petty, who's an organizer in Detroit, talks a lot about how surveillance ain't safety. Um, and one of the things she cites a lot is research that shows that basically one of the best determinants of whether you're gonna be okay if you, if you have some type of violent incident, is if you know your neighbor. Um, but that's like one of the ways that you can be safest and that like these systems are trying to kind of make us feel connected. But actually in reality, we're not. I think people are waking up to that and I'm actually quite excited about it. Naomi: Oh, a hundred percent. And that, that's the other thing. I mean, I was thinking, what's the other thing that people are saying that they're building on in Minneapolis, COVID, mutual Aid, all of these networks of like finding out which neighbor actually has mobility challenges and needs you to go grocery shopping for them, or has a mu is it, you know, compromised all that work is feeding in. You know, like we, sometimes we don't know exactly what we're organizing [00:39:00] for. Yeah. So I don't know. That's how I get through it. I mean, and I'm always like. We never see it coming like on the left. Like we always, it's after the fact, like after Greta shows up with the sign and there's million, you know? And suddenly, you know, obviously it wasn't just her, but like it was latent, right? Some these things happened, but nobody saw that coming. And nobody, nobody saw Minneapolis coming. Nobody saw Ramani coming, you know? So like these things happen and I, I think the main thing. We should really understand right now is that they're scared of us. Terrified. They're really scared of us. Yeah. Alix: To the point that they're like saying that empathy is the problem, like there's like, like watching, like when they say it out loud, you're like, oh, you're like worried that we're gonna be normal. People who relate with normal people and like everybody comes together and you can feel it. There's an anger. Naomi: Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, I, I think we left, has made big mistakes in the past of, of just feeding into their narrative about us, of seeming like just incredibly [00:40:00] judgmental and quick to dismiss and write off and judge and, and a part of what's making me feel really good about what's happening. I was like, I feel like we're learning, you know, like I think that we are showing up in, in like really big hearted ways. You know, we have our own ugly histories to learn from on the left. Right? True. We, we do purchase. Alix: That's true. But I think you're right. I also feel it's, uh, I see a, I mean, I feel a sea change in myself even in the last, like, I don't know, eight years. I, I grew up in the south in the us. And I have not been very gracious with lots of people in my life, and I feel like I'm getting much better at being like, oh, that just destroys your relationship. And you have to actually, if, if you want to actually engage with people, you have to create space for that and it can't be. On the same terms as someone else you're, you're engaging with on those issues that agrees with you. And it's like in, I don't know, it's like, it sounds so obvious when I say it out loud, but like it is a very, it's a learning curve about how to [00:41:00] navigate these times where, you know, the social and the interpersonal, Naomi: you had the conversation you had with the data center organizers. And like I loved what Mary so said, um, from Tucson. Yeah. Um, but about, you know, talking to people who voted for Trump, but like coming together because everyone thinks their water matters, you know, and then finding other things to agree on and doing popular education. I mean, that. We haven't even talked about that kind of organizing. Like who saw that coming? I didn't see that coming. Alix: But she made this great point that like, I mean, it is the entry point that unifies everyone. It is the non-partisan entry point that is connected to life. And I think that there's so many of those now that are so much more obvious than they were before. And I feel like we're Naomi: right smarter. ' Alix: cause they're Naomi: literally waging war on the living world. So we're like, Alix: yeah, Naomi: hey, who likes life? Alix: Who likes life? Uh, yes. I think that's a very compelling, uh, yeah. Way of thinking about it, but like also who, I don't know, I, I think that's why the affordability stuff is so [00:42:00] obviously, you know, gets so much traction because it sucks, like everyone feels it. And I think that there's just, I think we're getting better at instead of choosing the most niche. Part of our politic to shame people for not understanding. We're choosing the broader based politic, a part of our politic that is universally appealing. And I think that it's like, in retrospect, probably could have done better, uh, before now, but I think it's happening. Like you can see it happening. And I feel like it's, it's not just performative and it's not just narrative. I think it really is Naomi: co That was the mandani campaign. That was it. Yeah. Going to Trump voters and talking about, you know, what if we froze the rent and had free transit? That also sounds good. Alix: Yeah, I know who to thunk. Um, okay. Well I feel like I could talk to you forever and I appreciate you talking. Oh, Naomi: this was really fun. Oh, Alix: it's Naomi: great talking with you. Alix: Yeah. Thank you for everything and I am excited to read the book when it comes out. Big thanks. To Naomi for coming on the show for the second time in like three months the first time, [00:43:00] which we can share in the show notes. She joined to tell us a little bit about, uh, her analysis about AI as a climate solution in advance of the AI summit in India. And she had some really insightful observations about the kind of partnership between fossil fuel companies, big tech industry, and autocratic governments. Um, so if you miss that, please do check it out. I feel like everything she says is interesting. So we're digging into, if you haven't listened to that. But more generally, this is the conversation I needed. I have been thinking about it for weeks. We recorded it like a month ago, and I just, I'm struggling personally with trying to balance being intellectual and accurate and prescriptive about what's happening, but without having that kind of sink me emotionally. And I think this ability to pair, you know, an unflinching look at what's happening, but really being honest with ourselves when there is positive forward momentum and when. People power is something that is building momentum and growing. Um, and just like seeing that [00:44:00] even though sometimes it feels like it might not be enough, and I just found it a really powerful reminder that that's not the case. So thank you, Naomi, for part intellectual. Exploration part therapy session. It was very appreciated. Thanks to the podcast team, Sarah Myles, Georgia Iacovou ,Van Newman Kushal Dev, Marion Wellington, and Zoe Trout for all their work on making this podcast happen. Every week next week, we have Brian Merchant and we dig into the movies. He likes that he feels like Tell good. Stories and help him kind of unlock his own understanding and cultural knowledge about technology, politics, and sort of how we tell stories as a society to kind of process and understand what is going on. So we will see you next week.