Latest / Real Patriotism / The Link Between the Iran War, the Epstein Files, & Trump’s Ballooning Bank Account

Transcript

The Link Between the Iran War, the Epstein Files, & Trump’s Ballooning Bank Account · Real Patriotism

0:00
As Donald Trump's war against Iran rages
0:02
on and as he continues to try to seize
0:05
power for himself in an effort to change
0:08
the nature of our democracy, what are
0:09
the Democrats going to do? What comes
0:11
next in this tumultuous year? I'm
0:14
talking to Tara McGawan today. She is a
0:17
new media star, right? She's a founder
0:19
of the Courier Newsroom. She's got a
0:21
podcast called Gloves Off, which
0:23
captures her attitude about what should
0:25
come next because the Democrats are in a
0:28
great spot right now politically, but
0:30
can they pull it off? And who are the
0:33
candidates rising who might be able to
0:35
do it? This is a great conversation. I
0:37
hope you enjoy it. If you do, hit like,
0:40
hit subscribe there. We could really use
0:42
that. And without further ado, here's my
0:44
conversation with Tara McGawan.
0:51
>> Tara McGawan, welcome. Great to see you.
0:54
>> Thanks so much for having me, Terry.
0:55
Good to be here. and a lot of news uh
0:58
most of it bad but um I'd like to start
1:01
with something that is in the news
1:03
really on the hour as we record this and
1:06
this is this statement by the Israeli
1:08
defense minister that Israel plans to
1:12
seize a significant chunk of southern
1:15
Lebanon uh a border that was settled in
1:18
1923.
1:19
I looked it up so and recognized by the
1:22
United Nations. The Israeli defense
1:24
minister says we will take that land
1:27
uh and I just don't know. We're now on
1:30
board for a war of conquest. It seems uh
1:33
in in that part of the world and who
1:35
knows what else. As you saw, I'll ask
1:37
you the general question. What's your
1:39
view of this war in terms of its
1:41
legitimacy, but more importantly where
1:44
it's going?
1:46
>> Oh gosh. Well, how much time do we have,
1:47
Terry? Uh well, I can I'll be I'll just
1:50
be uh very short and direct. Um I I
1:53
think this is an incredibly illegitimate
1:55
um and irresponsible
1:57
uh war. It was started in a very um uh
2:03
unconstitutional way. Right? This was
2:05
just the directive and the decision of
2:08
the president. Um he did not go to
2:10
Congress uh to seek their approval which
2:14
is a proxy for seeking the approval of
2:17
the American people who very much do not
2:19
want to be engaged in this war. And that
2:22
includes a lot of people who voted for
2:25
Trump for president multiple times. Um
2:29
some of some of whom voted for him um
2:32
based on his position during his
2:34
campaigns. Um that he did not want
2:38
America um to be an interventionist. He
2:40
did not want to bring America into more
2:43
wars. He chastised former presidents for
2:45
starting wars, endless wars, expensive
2:49
wars, um, like this one. And his
2:52
administration and he couldn't even get
2:54
the story straight as to how or why they
2:57
started this war. There have been so
2:59
many contradictory reasons provided to
3:02
the American people. Contradictory even
3:04
amongst his team that can't seem to keep
3:06
the story straight on that. And we know
3:09
from um numerous reports um that there
3:12
is also a storyline of corruption here
3:14
as one of if not a primary reason for
3:17
why they started this war. Uh the
3:19
president's son-in-law, Jared Kushner,
3:21
has really really extraordinary
3:24
financial interests at stake with his
3:26
relationship uh at the government of
3:29
Saudi Arabia that apparently also was
3:32
encouraging um and persuading the
3:34
president directly and through Kushner
3:36
and others um to intervene in Iran for
3:39
their own interests. Um and we know that
3:43
that that that tracks given how this
3:45
president and this administration
3:47
operates. um at every level. Um it is
3:50
about how much money or resources can
3:53
the president, his family and his allies
3:56
extract from other individuals, nations
4:00
uh and and populations. Um, so I think
4:03
this is a horrible move by the
4:06
president. Um, and also a really really
4:08
disastrous political move given where
4:11
the American people are uh in terms of
4:13
their view of this war and what it will
4:16
further do to worsen our economy.
4:19
>> Yeah. Strong majorities of Americans uh
4:23
don't like the idea of this war. Now,
4:24
victory solves a lot of problems, but I
4:27
don't see what a, as you point out, he's
4:30
had six different goals in this war.
4:32
Unconditional surrender, regime change,
4:35
get out the nukes and the and the
4:36
missiles, and and maybe to take the oil
4:40
fields uh that Iran has, who knows? And
4:43
the more he shifts around, the the
4:45
deeper we get in. He wants out.
4:47
Obviously he does not have the sticking
4:50
staying power to uh to achieve anything
4:53
like those grandiose goals that he
4:56
mentioned and the corruption is a huge
4:58
part of it. You know, you see with every
5:02
policy that he announces, it looks timed
5:05
to impact markets. But what's worse is
5:08
that the people who follow big trades
5:11
that are made day by day, overnight,
5:13
they see minutes before Trump makes an
5:16
announcement that will move markets.
5:18
Hey, we're in peace talks already. We're
5:20
going to meet in Pakistan on at the end
5:22
of the week. There was a billion half
5:25
dollar bet placed basically in the
5:27
markets. That's somebody with inside
5:29
knowledge. Probably somebody related to
5:32
the president, it seems like. And it
5:34
it's no way to run a popsicle stand,
5:35
much less a war.
5:37
>> No. And it's just another example of how
5:41
uh irresponsibly this president and his
5:43
administration are essentially gifying
5:47
uh foreign relations and uh domestic and
5:50
national security and uh and the safety
5:54
of the American people and our service
5:56
members abroad. for their own financial
5:59
gain. Um we also know with this
6:01
president his deep deep track record of
6:04
um the way he defines success is solely
6:08
about himself right what personal
6:12
financial and uh reputational gains
6:16
among people that he seeks the approval
6:19
of um can he muster out of a situation
6:23
without any uh care or concern at all
6:26
for the repercussions um that those
6:29
decisions can have on entire populations
6:33
um of people. So, it's just I mean it
6:34
really is we are living through uh
6:37
certainly my worst nightmare um for a
6:39
government and administration of this
6:40
country and how they um are destroying
6:44
the reputation of this country and um
6:48
the the the the pillars in which this
6:50
country was built and and how we have
6:53
represented ourselves and how we have
6:54
protected other democracies around the
6:56
world. um the speed at which he has
6:59
dismantled uh everything that is so
7:03
great and beautiful about this country
7:05
um and how it's operated and how it's
7:07
been uh a a beacon for democracy around
7:11
this world and and fairness and uh
7:14
progress and justice. It's just it's
7:16
really um it's you know it's been
7:18
difficult to swallow for many many years
7:20
now. But uh watching what he's doing now
7:22
and knowing that he will never claim a
7:24
loss, right? He he never will. He's the
7:27
biggest loser who always declares a
7:28
victory even when he loses. Um, we know
7:31
that we will never likely know the
7:33
entire truth of how or why this started,
7:35
but we can all um I think assume with a
7:37
a lot of uh evidence to back it up and
7:39
support it that it has to do with he and
7:42
his family enriching themselves.
7:45
>> Yeah, that's that is a depressing
7:47
litany, Tara, but it is accurate. And I
7:49
think what you put your finger on is
7:51
that the manner this war the way it was
7:55
launched without consulting not only no
7:58
allies and as you point out not the
8:00
American people because president has
8:02
been doing that for a long time. A war
8:04
is different than a few strikes here or
8:07
there. I was in Libya when Obama ordered
8:09
those strikes. That was a massive moment
8:12
of the use of NATO and and uh US
8:15
military power and I thought he should
8:16
have gone to the Congress for permission
8:18
for that. This is up 10 a billion times
8:21
bigger than that. And it's a national
8:25
risk and a national commitment that
8:27
should have he should have at least
8:28
asked. But the odd thing about MAGA, and
8:31
I do want to turn to this before the the
8:33
accelerant, which is that that the a
8:36
couple of weeks before this war began, a
8:39
very strong majority of MAGA of
8:41
Republicans
8:43
said they opposed war with Iran, that
8:46
they they did not want to see that.
8:48
That's right.
8:48
>> A majority. Within days of Donald Trump
8:52
starting a war against Iran, it was 80,
8:54
85, 90% support from Republicans. They
8:58
just turned off their mind. As long as
9:00
Donald Trump wanted it, that's okay.
9:02
That's the real danger in American
9:04
politics. This isn't a politics you can
9:07
argue with. This is follow the leader.
9:10
>> Yeah. I mean, he he operates as though
9:13
he is a king. Um, and he is not. Um I
9:18
also, you know, I struggle with some of
9:20
those polling numbers because I think
9:22
that we are seeing this as a big wedge
9:24
issue um amongst some of his supporters
9:27
um compounded by the wedge issue. Uh
9:29
that was his other massive bait and
9:31
switch from his campaign promise which
9:32
is the Epstein files, transparency,
9:35
accountability and justice related to
9:37
those files of which um he is uh the
9:41
most prevalent character within um and
9:44
is uh leading the largest coverup um in
9:48
US history um of which he is complicit.
9:52
The Department of Justice, the FBI, the
9:53
CIA is complicit. um he does not care
9:56
even about um the promises he made to
9:59
his base. Um he has a onetrack mind and
10:02
that is again uh whatever can keep him
10:05
in power um and acrewing more wealth um
10:08
again at any cost. And so I I I do
10:11
believe there are some really really
10:13
true believers still, right, that trust
10:16
him still um to this day. But I think
10:19
that there are a lot of folks that might
10:20
not be as represented yet but will be
10:23
when we see the turnout in the midterms
10:25
later this year that feel very much
10:27
betrayed whether they stay home and do
10:29
not participate or they actually switch
10:31
their vote as we saw many Texans do even
10:33
in the primaries um earlier this month.
10:36
uh away from him in the Republican party
10:38
that has been complicit in this um
10:40
really really really unconstitutional,
10:42
lawless and dangerous uh uh dismantling
10:45
of a lot of our institutions and
10:47
precedents.
10:48
>> And that's interesting the turnout
10:51
factor. It was astonishing in Texas and
10:53
Mississippi for goodness sake where
10:55
Scott Colom is running for for a United
10:58
States senator there. A black man as a
11:01
Democrat running in Mississippi. You
11:02
think that would be a long shot and it
11:04
may yet still be, but the turnout in the
11:07
Democratic primary across the board in
11:09
that state was staggering, setting
11:11
records. It's clear which side is
11:13
energized. Uh I do wonder though if if
11:18
the Democrats have done enough work in
11:22
winning back the workingclass voters,
11:25
the middle class voters that they lost
11:27
to Trump. Trump won voters who made
11:29
under $100,000 a year. Democrats used to
11:32
have a lock on that constituency because
11:33
they had policies which answered the
11:36
problems of of people of ordinary people
11:39
and families. And I wonder if if they've
11:42
fixed that problem. What do you think?
11:44
>> Uh no, they definitely have not fixed
11:46
that problem. Um and I I think it's it's
11:48
a really excellent question and an
11:50
important one, Terry, because um I I I
11:52
have a a very unpopular theory among my
11:55
friends in the Democratic party. Um but
11:57
a theory that um Democrats really
11:59
haven't won by their own merits or
12:00
vision uh or ability to deliver for the
12:04
American people in many many many
12:06
election cycles even when they were
12:08
victorious over Republicans. Um it's
12:10
really been when Republicans have lost
12:12
that Democrats have been put into
12:14
positions of power or the majority um in
12:17
the House or Senate or even in the White
12:19
House. Um, and if you think back, right,
12:21
the one that I would say was maybe an
12:23
exception to that rule um, in at least
12:26
my my lifetime was um, President Obama's
12:30
historic victory in 2008. And yet, when
12:34
you go back to that, that also was a
12:35
referendum on George W. Bush's
12:38
administration and him bringing us into
12:40
a boondoggle and expensive war based on
12:42
lies and propaganda. um of which uh you
12:46
know one of Obama's leading messages
12:47
that that that skyrocketed him to the
12:50
national um mainstream was that he was
12:53
one of a few who voted against that war
12:55
who stood against that war right and so
12:58
um you have to recall that and
13:01
understand that Trump has been an a
13:03
really unprecedented political force in
13:05
this country both for the Republican
13:07
party that he hijacked and took over and
13:09
now is you know uh his uh uh his crony
13:13
base as opposed to the party that he is
13:15
within. Um and uh and in terms of
13:19
skyrocketing and lifting up Democratic
13:22
victories despite Democrats who to your
13:24
point um have lost the trust and support
13:28
of working-class Americans, even though
13:30
they have always consistently been
13:32
better on presenting the solutions that
13:35
would benefit workingclass Americans,
13:37
they're just piss poor at actually
13:39
communicating them or delivering on
13:42
those solutions. Um, so my hope is in
13:45
this real inflection point that we're at
13:47
in this country, um, and around the
13:49
world that that this time that Democrats
13:52
will, if we have free and fair
13:54
elections, and I do say if we have free
13:56
and fair elections, um, they will win
13:59
uh, by enormous margins, maybe historic
14:03
margins this November. Um, potentially
14:05
also taking back the Senate, which I
14:07
think is very much on the table. I hope
14:10
that they do not rest on the laurels of
14:13
those winds and think that they are the
14:14
result of their work and instead
14:17
approach it with enormous humility and
14:19
understand that they need to present a
14:21
vision for a new system of government in
14:24
this country that actually does
14:26
represent the people's will and the
14:28
people's interests and then be able to
14:30
deliver on that vision. um because I
14:33
think that they have failed at both of
14:34
those points over the past number of
14:36
years and have truly won when they've
14:37
won despite themselves.
14:39
>> Yeah, it's critical and we're definitely
14:41
of one mind on that. But I want to tell
14:43
the story of what happened to our
14:46
politics with a little wrinkle in it,
14:48
which is that it it feels to me, right,
14:50
what what was Obama's slogan, hope and
14:53
change, right? What drove the American
14:57
people to pick a junior senator, guy
15:00
who'd only been in Washington a couple
15:01
of years, right? When was he elected?
15:03
Uh, yeah. A couple of years, a a black
15:06
man with a funny last name, as he says,
15:09
uh, to make that man president of the
15:11
United States. It was a demand, right?
15:14
Obviously, there was a financial
15:16
catastrophe happening. The wars of of
15:19
the Bush era were exhausting and opposed
15:22
by a majority of Americans, but people
15:25
were looking for more than a change of
15:29
party, for more than a different guy.
15:32
What I think they felt in Obama is he's
15:35
closer to us than he is to them. And
15:38
them were people who had done things
15:41
like open the borders of the United
15:43
States to free trade in ways that
15:45
destroyed jobs and communities across
15:47
the country. That used to be a
15:49
Democratic point. We just we just
15:50
mourned the passing of Jesse Jackson.
15:52
>> I remember that campaign 1988. It was it
15:56
was so wondrous to see Jackson and the
16:00
hard hats and the farmers in solidarity
16:04
because he understood what it meant, you
16:06
know, to have forces pushing back on on
16:09
you succeeding in life. Part of that
16:12
obviously is our heritage in in the
16:14
racial issues, but also class. And he
16:16
brought those two together. It was
16:17
absolutely thrilling. And there were and
16:20
he was not for all these free trade
16:22
agreements, right? Neither was neither
16:24
were people like Mario Cuomo, Dick
16:25
Jeart. There were Democrats and then
16:28
they completely went in the other
16:30
direction under Clinton. And those
16:33
communities, my brother lives in one in
16:36
Streer, Illinois, uh, and they got
16:38
clobbered.
16:40
And I do think that Trump just walked
16:43
into that open ground of American
16:46
politics and took it.
16:48
>> And I think it's going to be hard for
16:50
for Democrats to take it back.
16:51
>> Yeah. Well, I was I was going to say
16:53
that uh the way you described um Obama's
16:56
candidacy, right, and and the support
16:58
that he got as somebody who did not seem
17:02
like the ones who had uh been in power
17:04
before in either party and that he was
17:06
going to go a different way. You can say
17:08
the exact same thing about Donald Trump,
17:10
right? I think Donald Trump's fast rise
17:12
in support um which was very much a uh a
17:15
an outcome of the uh right-wing media
17:18
and the power that that media
17:20
infrastructure build. Trump would not uh
17:22
be president if he had not been able to
17:24
uh ride on that on that infrastructure
17:27
and that momentum. But he really did
17:30
represent somebody who did not look or
17:32
act or talk like a traditional
17:35
politician and who said who looked
17:38
people in the eye and said, "You've
17:40
gotten screwed and I'm going to tell you
17:42
exactly who screwed you and you are
17:44
going to trust me because I'm not going
17:46
to screw you." The thing is that gig is
17:48
up now. And so this is where I I
17:50
challenge uh your assessment that you
17:52
think it's going to be hard to sort of
17:54
um you know peel his, you know, fist off
17:58
of sort of uh the electorate in that
18:01
sense is that he is no longer even
18:03
trying to hide the fact that he was
18:06
never genuine about the promises that he
18:09
made to his base, whether it was about
18:10
the Epstein files, whether it was about
18:12
starting wars or intervening um abroad,
18:15
whether it was about uh fixing the
18:18
economy or making uh bringing costs down
18:20
of which they've only increased
18:22
including the cost of gas with this new
18:25
war that he promised he would never
18:27
start. And so I really do believe that
18:29
once again and we are in this position a
18:31
lot in this country. Um it does often
18:34
feel like a pendulum swing in certain
18:35
ways that people are going to look for a
18:38
very different kind of leader and vision
18:42
um because they still have yet to
18:45
identify one that has actually made
18:47
their lives better in a very tangible
18:50
way. And so it is a very high bar um for
18:54
the Democratic party and for leaders
18:55
within it. And I don't think that I
18:57
think the majority of Americans are
18:59
really um fed up with both parties and
19:02
the two-party system that has not worked
19:04
on behalf of them. And I think the
19:06
attention and engagement and staying
19:08
power of the Epstein files scandal and
19:10
cover up is because it is a really
19:14
really tangible manifestation of what
19:17
most Americans feel is corruption on all
19:20
sides. and um the uh the reality that
19:25
wealthy powerful individuals in this
19:28
country get to play by a very different
19:30
set of rules than the rest of us. And so
19:32
it is going to be time for another
19:34
change agent. And hopefully that change
19:36
agent can actually build a new party and
19:39
a new system um out of their success in
19:42
28. But we have got a lot of challenges
19:44
that we have to overcome to get from
19:47
here to even there.
19:48
>> Yeah. I think the way you sort of center
19:51
the Epstein story, the Epstein scandal
19:55
as a moment for all of us who didn't go
19:59
to the island, you know, uh, all normal,
20:03
decent, ordinary people of any
20:05
background
20:07
see something so dark in those files,
20:10
right? My my friend Anan Giras has been
20:13
doing great work on this. Not just the
20:16
horrible crimes, but the society that it
20:20
represented. It didn't matter what you
20:22
believed in, what you stood for. You
20:24
were in the club and everybody who went
20:27
knew that at some level something
20:29
something really bad was happening. He
20:31
didn't hide at Epstein. And so here were
20:33
these people across party lines who
20:36
wield so much power over so much of our
20:38
institutions, not just in our country. I
20:40
was staggered. You know, you've got you
20:42
got a prince of England, right? former
20:44
prince of England. I guess you've got
20:46
Yeah. You you've got uh the former chair
20:49
of the Bank of England. You've got the
20:50
Serbian defense minister. You've got,
20:53
you know, billionaires around the world,
20:54
the president of Harvard, president of
20:56
the United States, the guy who founded
20:59
the computer era, the modern era of
21:00
computer, Bill Gates. More and more
21:02
comes out. It's so dark. And it is in
21:07
the best sense the way you're describing
21:10
an opportunity for a genuine populist
21:13
cleansing revolt.
21:15
>> That's exactly right. I mean, it it
21:17
really truly was um uh the product of a
21:24
a a
21:25
system that has been broken for a very
21:28
long time. It isn't just about the
21:29
perpetrators or um the actual crimes of
21:32
which they are abhorrent that are within
21:34
those files. It is also about the
21:36
enablers and the protectors. And it's so
21:39
vast, so widespread um across uh across
21:43
the globe, across industries, across
21:46
parties as you mentioned, political
21:47
parties as you mentioned. Um but it
21:49
really does represent
21:52
uh uh really the success of evil um
21:56
right of greed and corruption um that
22:00
has no place in a healthy society or
22:03
certainly a democracy. And so I am very
22:06
much of the belief, as I think most
22:08
Americans are, that without justice and
22:10
accountability for the crimes and the
22:12
perpetrators and the enablers within the
22:14
files, there cannot be healing and thus
22:16
there cannot be moving forward from that
22:18
into a system that we can trust. And
22:20
that gets to the heart of the issue in
22:22
this country is that the American people
22:24
have lost trust in their institutions,
22:27
in the media, in the political parties,
22:29
in government. and they're going to
22:31
participate because we still have that
22:33
right and that agency to do so. And I do
22:35
believe they're going to participate at
22:37
higher levels than we have seen in the
22:38
elections this fall. Um, but we have to
22:42
all collectively figure out how to
22:44
restore social and public trust in order
22:47
to be able to have a functional society.
22:49
And I think that is the biggest
22:50
challenge before us. And that is not
22:52
something that can be solved quickly or
22:53
in one election cycle um at all. is
22:56
going to take a lot of time um and a lot
22:58
of um I think surprising leaders uh and
23:01
leadership that that we couldn't even
23:03
name today if we tried.
23:05
>> I want to ask a couple more questions
23:07
about the work you do, the work I'm
23:09
trying to do and how that fits into what
23:11
you just said. But before we get to
23:14
that, you say we don't even really know
23:17
who might rise and and lead the the
23:20
necessary change, right? Um, candidates
23:24
are so important, right? They especially
23:27
right now where people don't really
23:29
trust party institutions. They don't
23:30
trust the legitimizing institutions of
23:33
media or endorsements or or even the
23:37
source of money, right? It's they're
23:40
looking at the individuals, the men and
23:43
women, the people who are actually
23:45
standing before them asking for their
23:47
vote in ways that we always have, but it
23:51
seems more intensely like what makes you
23:54
tick. It's not just that you're on your
23:56
on my side. I want to know I want to
23:58
know why. What what is in you that that
24:00
that rhymes and chimes with what's in
24:02
me? And who are you looking at out
24:05
there? Who do you see who who who who
24:07
you think, okay, that's tomorrow?
24:09
>> Yeah, it's a great question. So, I
24:11
actually I have a podcast in YouTube
24:13
series called Gloves Off that I started
24:16
for that very purpose to actually talk
24:19
to the folks that I at least believe are
24:22
demonstrating the kind of gloves off
24:24
leadership that this moment requires. Uh
24:27
the threat level that we are at in terms
24:29
of will we have a democratic government,
24:31
will we have a democratic society in
24:33
America? Um again because we we are not
24:36
living in one today, right? We are
24:38
living under uh a a a incredibly corrupt
24:42
president and administration that um is
24:44
obstructing justice, obstructing the
24:46
rule of law, obstructing Congress. Um
24:49
when it comes to laws that have been
24:50
passed and even signed into law by this
24:52
president, i.e. the Epstein transparency
24:55
um act among others. Um, we have seen
24:57
Americans be executed in the street by
25:00
federal ICE agents for exercising their
25:03
constitutional rights. Um, we are not in
25:06
uh normal times and we are not living in
25:08
a functional democracy right now. So, in
25:10
order to get there, we need to have
25:13
folks that are number one very cleareyed
25:16
about that reality that we are living
25:18
living in, right? We can't be led by
25:20
anyone who believes that uh they can
25:24
negotiate with this administration or
25:27
just believe that in their heart of
25:29
hearts that that Trump will come around
25:31
to do the right thing or John Thoon will
25:34
come around to do the right thing. Um we
25:36
know that that is not the case any
25:37
longer, but some of our representatives
25:39
and leaders in Congress and in the
25:40
Senate do not know that. So that that is
25:43
a disqualification for leadership today.
25:45
We need people who are cleareyed about
25:47
the stakes of this moment and who also
25:49
have a positive vision um hopeful
25:53
vision, tangible vision of of how to
25:57
meet the needs of the American people um
26:00
in ways that they can deliver on. And we
26:02
have seen this with Zoron Mandani uh who
26:04
frankly right based on uh the way things
26:07
tend to work in the political industry
26:09
because it is an industry had no
26:11
business to become the mayor of the
26:13
biggest most powerful uh city in the
26:16
world. And yet he is and he is
26:18
delivering every day and showing um that
26:20
you can have bold vision. you can have
26:22
it and present it in a joyful and
26:24
positive way and you can deliver. Um,
26:27
and I don't think every candidate or
26:29
leader should look like or tout the same
26:31
ideas or solutions as Zoron does. Um,
26:34
though I don't think it would be a bad
26:35
thing, but I certainly believe that um,
26:37
it demonstrates the ability right now
26:40
for someone to essentially come out of
26:42
nowhere. No name recognition, name ID,
26:44
no campaign coffers uh funded by
26:48
corporations or oligarchs in Silicon
26:51
Valley or or foreign nations. Um they
26:54
can come out right now and and have a
26:57
clear vision and rise very very very
26:59
very quickly because folks, especially
27:02
younger folks, are so so starving for
27:05
new forms of leadership, new ideas, new
27:08
visions, and they don't want to be all
27:10
doom and gloom. don't just want to hear
27:11
you talk about Trump or this
27:13
administration or the corruption or the
27:15
Epstein files, right? Those are
27:16
important. They want to hear what you're
27:18
going to do to make their lives easier
27:21
to make sure that they can make ends
27:22
meet, that they can believe in the
27:24
future they are leaving for their
27:25
children once again. Um, and that's not
27:28
how most Americans feel. And so, I think
27:30
that once again, it's not going to look
27:31
like one type of Democrat or one type of
27:34
politician. Um, I really hope that the
27:36
leaders that are are rising up and that
27:38
we're seeing across this country, um,
27:40
are as diverse as the American people,
27:42
and I believe that they will be. So, I
27:44
would name Zoron, but I, you know, I I
27:46
also think that there's a ton of
27:48
emerging leaders at the very very local
27:50
level and activists. I think that the
27:52
way that u mayor Jacob Frey uh uh
27:56
represented his incredible city through
27:58
what Minianapolis has gone through. No
28:00
one in America knew Jacob Frey's name
28:02
who didn't live in Minnesota really
28:04
before that happened. So folks who are
28:07
who rise to the occasion when they are
28:10
confronted with the challenges that we
28:12
face today whether they are in elected
28:13
office or they are organizers or they
28:15
are just citizens who feel like enough
28:18
is enough. I need to stand up and do
28:19
more. I think those are the folks that
28:21
are are that are the ones I mentioned we
28:23
can't name today that are going to
28:25
appear and rise very quickly. I don't
28:27
think it's the folks that you and I
28:28
could both name very easily on two or
28:31
three hands who are going to throw their
28:32
name in the hat for 2028. Um I think
28:35
it's very hard for anyone who is a known
28:37
quantity in our political system today
28:39
to uh to win a national election.
28:42
>> That's a great point and I love the way
28:44
you describe Manny. Now mom Donny's
28:46
policies, you know, I'm I'm like a
28:49
boomer, right? So he's so he's like to
28:52
the left of where I am. But the joy that
28:55
of his campaign and the use of it. I
28:58
heard the note that America seems to
29:01
have lost touch with that we're we can
29:04
try we can try something new. We can try
29:07
to solve problems in new ways. And that
29:11
openness, that all-American pragmatic,
29:14
let's try something new, combined
29:19
with the joy that he brought to that
29:21
campaign and to the job. Now, I mean, I
29:24
thought it was it was a winning
29:26
combination for the people of New York.
29:28
And I think there's something in that
29:30
that everybody's kind of down and out
29:32
for for good reasons. The issues that
29:34
we're fighting about, that we're looking
29:36
at in the world, very heavy.
29:38
But that sense of can do American
29:41
optimism.
29:43
>> That's right.
29:43
>> All American Zoron Manny. Nothing more
29:46
American than that guy. Right. He he
29:47
seems to sink the three-pointer the
29:49
other day on the playgrounds of New
29:50
York.
29:51
>> Uh
29:52
>> I loved it. And and I think more of that
29:55
I think is
29:57
>> is what people are looking for. Right.
29:59
>> Yeah. And I think I think another lesson
30:00
all politicians or aspiring candidates
30:03
can draw from Zoron's leadership is that
30:05
um if you can achieve one small win
30:08
every day, those build on one another.
30:11
Um and people want to be part of a
30:14
winning community, a winning coalition,
30:16
one that's moving forward. So whether
30:18
it's just a providing um a
30:23
actual a I forget how many dollars it
30:27
was an hour, but literally offering to
30:29
pay New Yorkers to get out and shovel
30:31
during the blizzard. And he created a
30:33
truly inspiring community effort that
30:36
also solved a problem more effectively
30:39
and efficiently than the city's
30:41
infrastructure could on its own. Um,
30:44
right. They just did another one the
30:45
other day where it was like, let's try
30:47
to fill a week's worth of potholes in
30:50
one day by engaging people. And so
30:52
people feel a part of that progress. And
30:55
that is really hard to quantify. It's
30:58
it's almost invaluable. Um, because it
31:00
is giving people hope and it is making
31:02
them believe that things are better
31:05
because they're watching things get
31:06
better incrementally as opposed to
31:08
coming out with a bold vision, right?
31:10
that that is not that you are not able
31:12
to deliver on the way our our political
31:14
system or electoral system works. You're
31:16
you're not given an indefinite amount of
31:18
time and people need to feel the impacts
31:20
more quickly. And I think that that's
31:22
something he's done a really incredible
31:23
job of is not not promised to deliver on
31:25
everything. Promise to deliver on some
31:27
things and then actually deliver on them
31:29
and those compound over time.
31:31
>> Yeah, that's brilliant. I love that. So
31:33
now I want to turn to our business,
31:35
right? The the media, the new media in
31:37
particular. I had this wonderful vantage
31:39
point between the old media where I was
31:42
for a long time and now the new media
31:43
where I am. I like to say that I picked
31:45
a very good time to get fired and a very
31:47
good way to get fired. And there's truth
31:49
in that because it is clearly where the
31:52
energy of creators but more important of
31:56
all of us as we try to find out about
31:59
the world and do something about the
32:01
problems and this is this is where
32:02
people are coming. So tell me something
32:04
about about what you're doing about
32:06
Courier about how you look at the work
32:08
you're doing. You're way ahead of me. So
32:10
we've already arranged a call that uh
32:13
you know offline that off camerara that
32:15
we can have. But when you look at the
32:17
work you do, why do you do it? What do
32:19
you think its impact is and what's its
32:20
future?
32:21
>> Yeah. Well, first Terry, I want to
32:23
congratulate you because to be fired by
32:25
corporate or legacy media today really
32:26
is a badge of honor. So I really do
32:28
congratulate you and welcome to the new
32:30
new media club. Uh new media is a funny
32:33
term that keeps uh uh resurfacing every
32:36
few years as the as the industry and the
32:38
ecosystem changes so rapidly. Um so I
32:41
also I started my career at CBS News uh
32:44
in in corporate media you know 20 plus
32:48
years ago at this stage but um I uh I
32:51
started career because I had that
32:53
background in journalism. I pivoted into
32:54
politics for a long time and I realized
32:57
that both um our media institutions and
33:00
our two-party system, especially the
33:02
Democratic Party in particular, um were
33:05
were increasingly out of touch uh with
33:08
where people um were spending their
33:10
time, how they were consuming
33:12
information, uh with with the the rapid
33:15
rapid rise um of of of social media. And
33:19
you know now we're we're confronted
33:21
again as AI is about to change
33:23
everything um that we touch and we
33:25
breathe and we um uh use uh to go about
33:28
our lives. And so when this was
33:30
happening I I realized that um you know
33:33
media has always been the most powerful
33:36
thing at least in my opinion that's why
33:38
I went into journalism to begin with at
33:39
changing shaping hearts and minds and
33:41
being able to advance progress um in a
33:45
country in the world. um storytelling is
33:47
the most powerful thing that we do as
33:49
humans and the way to do that at scale
33:52
can be enormously powerful. The right
33:54
has understood this for a very long
33:56
time. Um and and the left in America um
33:59
didn't feel that they needed to. Um
34:01
there's a you know a funny line uh that
34:03
I I often parrot that you know facts
34:05
lean left. Um it's uh it's almost an
34:08
understated line at this stage, but
34:09
right-wing media was created um in
34:12
defense of feeling that all media uh in
34:15
this country at least was quote unquote
34:17
liberal. So the the the the result of
34:20
that of course was that a lot of
34:22
corporate and traditional media outlets
34:24
felt very defensive and so they upheld
34:27
lies and liars equivalent to truth and
34:30
truth tellers when it fell on partisan
34:32
lines because they wanted to appear
34:34
balanced. and that unfortunately paved
34:36
the way for the fascism that we are now
34:37
all uh living under and experiencing. Um
34:41
the president um has done an incredibly
34:43
effective job at attacking media um and
34:46
getting his administration officials to
34:48
do the same that he just disagrees with
34:50
facts that he disagrees with that do not
34:52
benefit him. Um and so we need a
34:56
different media ecosystem in this
34:58
country and to your point um there is a
35:00
very vibrant independent media ecosystem
35:02
that is growing. And I'm very proud that
35:04
Courier is a major part of that. Um I
35:07
started Courier seven years ago um with
35:09
the intention of reaching the folks that
35:12
are not the most educated wealthy white
35:15
Americans which most media today only
35:18
serve. Um the vast majority of Americans
35:22
uh do not pay uh for news products. They
35:25
don't pay through pay walls where most
35:26
um reporting is trapped these days. they
35:29
get their information for free,
35:30
scrolling social media, their inboxes,
35:32
talking to their communities, their
35:34
friends and neighbors. And so I wanted
35:36
to create a news organization um that
35:38
met folks like that where they were um
35:41
and and with stories and content and
35:44
formats that they actually would engage
35:46
with. Um which means no long articles on
35:49
websites. It means headline cards and
35:51
and and quippy short vertical explainer
35:54
videos on their Tik Toks and Instagram
35:56
reels. And so I'm very proud. We've been
35:59
really successful. Um we're now in 11
36:02
states. We're about to be in 20 states
36:03
by the end of this year with newsrooms
36:05
on the ground in 20 states. And we also
36:07
have a very very um uh large and engaged
36:10
national community of millennial and Gen
36:13
Z Americans. Um where we're one of the
36:15
biggest media brands on Tik Tok in
36:17
America today. So uh it's always an
36:19
uphill battle. Um but we understand that
36:21
we have to go where people are. Um and
36:25
uh our journalism is only as good as the
36:27
amount of people who can consume it and
36:30
feel informed, empowered and mobilized
36:33
by it. And so we're very transparent
36:36
about the fact that we have values, we
36:38
have positions when it comes to issues
36:41
uh like immigration, like reproductive
36:43
rights and freedom, um like uh due
36:45
process and rule of law. Um we we make
36:48
no bones about that. We're not trying to
36:50
be objective or balanced, but I also
36:52
believe that's critical to earning trust
36:54
even among people who don't share our
36:56
same values. Um, we do earn their trust
36:58
by being transparent.
37:00
>> Yeah, there's no question that that
37:02
authenticity is what there is. Like I
37:05
spent a long time in in corporate media
37:08
at ABC News. I had a wonderful career. I
37:10
I loved it. Traveled around the world,
37:12
you know, all kinds of opportunities and
37:16
covered a bunch of wars, all that. And I
37:18
and I'm very very grateful for it. But I
37:20
could even feel before I before I I got
37:22
fired, I could even feel that it was a
37:26
dying business. And in part partly
37:29
because of the nature of media has
37:30
changed, but also because of exactly
37:32
what you're saying. people couldn't
37:34
really sense where you were coming from
37:37
and didn't trust you as a result,
37:38
especially
37:40
with, no question about it, the chill
37:43
that settled onto ABC News long before
37:45
you know it got to me, people very
37:48
uptight about making Donald Trump angry,
37:51
right? And and at the end of the day,
37:53
you can't be a trusted news source if
37:56
you're if you're bending the knee like
37:59
that. And I think that that's the
38:01
opportunity here. a lot of challenges,
38:03
but to reach people
38:06
through your authentic understanding of
38:08
the world and reporting on it to their
38:11
authentic understanding of what you're
38:13
saying and how they place it in their in
38:15
their lives. Um, well, I hope one day
38:18
when I grow up to be as successful as
38:20
you've been in the in this area. Um,
38:23
>> I think I will say one thing about Look,
38:25
you're in this new media ecos now. We're
38:28
talking on your show. You're here.
38:30
>> That's it.
38:31
>> That's it. I am here. And I will say one
38:33
thing about Tik Tok. I love Tik Tok. Uh
38:35
mostly because more than any other
38:37
social media, and I know it's the
38:39
Chinese and all this stuff, but it got
38:41
me. It understood me in ways that no
38:43
social media. It basically was pushing
38:44
like 1981 live Eagles concerts and you
38:48
know, Chicago Cubs highlights from 2016.
38:51
So, I've never seen I I now need to find
38:53
my way into the actual Tik Tok rather
38:56
than the Boomer Tik Tok, which is pretty
38:57
wonderful, I must It's scary how fast uh
39:00
it can read your mind and your
39:01
interests, the algorithms. It is scary.
39:04
>> But I appreciated it. Anyway, Tara
39:06
McGawan, thank you very much for joining
39:08
us. Really appreciate. It was a great
39:09
conversation. Talk to you soon.
39:11
>> Thank you, Terry.