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24. Exploring Mental Health & Family Trauma Through Family Constellations with Barry Krost · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Kia ora, and welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:03
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm your host Tracy Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy Cartwright: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy Cartwright: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Kia ora everyone, welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:37
  Tracy Cartwright: We are into the second month of the year already.
• 0:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, I'm really excited today to be chatting with Barry Crost, colleague from the United States.
• 0:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Who I've been following for a very long time.
• 0:48
  Tracy Cartwright: I've done quite a few of his workshops and I really, really admire Barry and his work.
• 0:54
  Tracy Cartwright: So I'm going to hand you, hand over to Barry here and invite you, Barry, to please share with the listeners and the viewers a little bit about yourself.
• 1:03
  Tracy Cartwright: So, Thanks for having me here
• 1:04
  Barry Krost: today.
• 1:05
  Barry Krost: Uh, I've been a body worker and energy healer for like 43 years, so and I still do it So I started off massage and then I just started doing more advanced techniques and lots of energy stuff Really enjoyed it, but I've always been interested in other things and at some point I encountered family constellations and took a workshop and I knew something really was amazing there It fit a lot of the other things I had done like it seemed like it was like a very congruent thing to many other Uh, things I have a master, I have a BA in anthropology, and it really fits into anthropology very well.
• 1:36
  Barry Krost: Uh, I had, uh, training in improvisational theater.
• 1:39
  Barry Krost: That fits really well into Constellations.
• 1:41
  Barry Krost: I have a master's in history.
• 1:43
  Barry Krost: So I just like, it seemed like I did a lot of things that sort of brought me very easily into Constellate, Family Constellations.
• 1:48
  Barry Krost: And, and so I really liked it right away.
• 1:51
  Barry Krost: I took lots of workshops.
• 1:52
  Barry Krost: And then, uh, the guy I liked the best, Scott Bader, decided to do a training one year.
• 1:57
  Barry Krost: And I was just thinking, well, eight three day weekends.
• 2:00
  Barry Krost: Deep dive.
• 2:01
  Barry Krost: I wasn't thinking about facilitating.
• 2:02
  Barry Krost: It seemed impossible, but I just thought it'd be like fun.
• 2:05
  Barry Krost: And so I flew out to San Diego for eight weekends and it was an amazing experience.
• 2:08
  Barry Krost: And, uh, I got done with that and I started facilitating a little bit, but I didn't quite know what I was doing.
• 2:14
  Barry Krost: So then I did another year training with Susie Tucker and that was amazing because, uh, you know, she edited most of his books, as you know.
• 2:21
  Barry Krost: So all of a sudden I got a real exposure to the literature of the work.
• 2:25
  Barry Krost: Cause she really knows it.
• 2:26
  Barry Krost: And so I started reading all the books and I started watching videos and I took a really deep dive into the, uh, Bert Hellinger's work because my first training, we barely talked about him.
• 2:36
  Barry Krost: And so then I really started studying Bert Hellinger.
• 2:38
  Barry Krost: And then I started, I went to Germany to the intensive for three years and I started taking all kinds of advanced classes and I just kind of went deep, deep, deep into it and it was facilitating more and more and then start offering workshops online.
• 2:49
  Barry Krost: And so it just kept growing and growing and it's turned into a really amazing thing for me.
• 2:53
  Barry Krost: And I'm, uh, I love it.
• 2:54
  Barry Krost: And it's, um, it's pretty cool.
• 2:56
  Barry Krost: It's like, uh, it's always, uh, teaching me brand new things, uh, that I don't know already.
• 3:01
  Barry Krost: So that's me.
• 3:04
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 3:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 3:05
  Tracy Cartwright: And you're based in Chicago.
• 3:07
  Barry Krost: Yeah, I'm, I'm, uh, from Chicago.
• 3:09
  Barry Krost: I've lived in other places.
• 3:10
  Barry Krost: Uh, I was born here and then I lived in Texas.
• 3:12
  Barry Krost: I lived in LA and now I'm living in, uh, in the Chicago area with my wife, uh, four years and my dog, Percy, who's very cute cockapoo and, uh, life's pretty good.
• 3:24
  Barry Krost: We have a very nice house on a park and, uh, I really, I'm really in a good place.
• 3:29
  Barry Krost: I'm really pretty happy in most of, most of this life.
• 3:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 3:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 3:35
  Tracy Cartwright: I have seen a few videos that are hard to get hold of and I know I recognized you in a couple of them.
• 3:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 3:42
  Tracy Cartwright: I've seen that you've been around for a while.
• 3:45
  Barry Krost: I have and uh, you must have seen the, the ones with Stefan Hausner.
• 3:48
  Barry Krost: I think I'm in those ones, but it's interesting when you watch these older Bert Hellinger things and you see, uh, your, your people who you started with, like Dan Cohen, uh, you know, people like that, or like you see them or, uh.
• 3:59
  Barry Krost: Young
• 3:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Jacob Starr, Yeah.
• 4:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 4:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 4:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 4:02
  Tracy Cartwright: So you see, uh.
• 4:03
  Barry Krost: Yeah, so it's really interesting to see them, uh, at the beginning of their experience working with BERT and being facilit uh, being representatives.
• 4:10
  Barry Krost: So, uh, I think I have all the tapes.
• 4:12
  Barry Krost: I'm, I'm a little, uh, I really wanted to take a deep dive.
• 4:17
  Barry Krost: So I think I have every, every BERT Hellinger video that's available in English
• 4:22
  Tracy Cartwright: right now.
• 4:22
  Tracy Cartwright: I
• 4:23
  Barry Krost: know there's more that's probably like in German and stuff, but I have all the English stuff.
• 4:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, a
• 4:27
  Barry Krost: wealth of knowledge, right?
• 4:29
  Barry Krost: Yeah, it's fun.
• 4:30
  Barry Krost: I, I, uh, I had a friend who, uh, had actually started with Bert.
• 4:33
  Barry Krost: I never met him.
• 4:34
  Barry Krost: I was, he was supposed to come here to, uh, to New York and canceled last minute.
• 4:39
  Barry Krost: So I didn't, my one chance to meet him didn't happen.
• 4:42
  Barry Krost: Uh, but I had a friend that studied with him and, uh, we'd get together once a month and we'd put on, uh, we'd have dinner and watch Bert Hellinger videos.
• 4:49
  Barry Krost: And, uh, we would stop and go, what is he doing?
• 4:54
  Barry Krost: Cause Bert always says it's obvious.
• 4:55
  Barry Krost: He'd be like, it's not obvious.
• 4:56
  Barry Krost: Like, and we'd go back and forth a few times.
• 4:58
  Barry Krost: Like, what is he doing there?
• 5:00
  Barry Krost: What is he thinking?
• 5:02
  Barry Krost: What is this he's doing?
• 5:03
  Barry Krost: So we would, we would stop a lot.
• 5:05
  Barry Krost: We would watch them again.
• 5:06
  Barry Krost: We watched some of them over.
• 5:07
  Barry Krost: So it was like a regular thing for a couple of years and it was fun.
• 5:10
  Barry Krost: We would just like, you know, watch the videos and ponder and kibitz about them and, and, but I, we ended up watching a lot of video and it was, it taught me a lot.
• 5:18
  Barry Krost: I still like to, I still on a regular basis, watch, uh.
• 5:22
  Barry Krost: We're telling her, there's certain ones I've watched, I don't know, 20 times maybe.
• 5:25
  Barry Krost: Like, what is that?
• 5:26
  Barry Krost: It's like, uh, like a puzzle.
• 5:29
  Barry Krost: Or sometimes it feels like you're watching a painting.
• 5:31
  Barry Krost: It's like, almost like a Picasso.
• 5:32
  Barry Krost: And you're like, every time you look at it, you see something else.
• 5:35
  Barry Krost: He changed quite a bit towards the end, didn't he, in his work?
• 5:39
  Barry Krost: I kind of stop at a certain place I'm not, I don't really follow.
• 5:43
  Barry Krost: I, he gets to a certain place where he's doing some stuff that doesn't resonate with me.
• 5:46
  Barry Krost: And so the later Hellenger work, I'm not so, I mean, I'm familiar with it, but I don't really feel a lot about it.
• 5:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 5:54
  Barry Krost: I'm more of the earlier period myself.
• 5:57
  Tracy Cartwright: So I'll ask you, how would you describe constellations to someone who's never heard of it before?
• 6:04
  Tracy Cartwright: The eternal
• 6:05
  Barry Krost: question.
• 6:06
  Barry Krost: I always like to just really make it really clear that we, uh, We live, uh, in human systems and family systems.
• 6:12
  Barry Krost: And we're today, we don't think about it.
• 6:14
  Barry Krost: We think we're all individuals, but we actually are born into these family systems and these family systems have.
• 6:21
  Barry Krost: Uh, natural laws and rules.
• 6:23
  Barry Krost: And when those rules are followed, people tend to be happy.
• 6:26
  Barry Krost: And when those rules.
• 6:27
  Barry Krost: are violated.
• 6:28
  Barry Krost: Those things are not in order.
• 6:30
  Barry Krost: It causes all kinds of pain and suffering over generations.
• 6:32
  Barry Krost: So I used to talk about as exploration of these, of the way we are living in family systems.
• 6:37
  Barry Krost: And it's a systemic understanding of, of the work.
• 6:40
  Barry Krost: And we can go back many, many, many generations and see how things that were unresolved continue to cause suffering.
• 6:47
  Barry Krost: Physical and mental.
• 6:48
  Barry Krost: In my body work practice, I can feel constellation, uh, you know, dynamics in the, in the tissue.
• 6:54
  Barry Krost: So shoulder might be frozen.
• 6:57
  Barry Krost: And it won't, I do my great techniques and it won't release.
• 6:59
  Barry Krost: But then I say, uh, say, dear grandfather, you have a place in my heart and they say it and the shoulder releases.
• 7:05
  Barry Krost: So there's a way that, uh, yeah, it feels to me like all the constellation dynamics are actually in our tissues.
• 7:10
  Barry Krost: We actually are holding them in there and it's like the, I, you know, so I think that I mostly tell people that it's just this way we experience ourselves in systems and there's a lot of problems these days with that.
• 7:21
  Barry Krost: And we just can explore.
• 7:23
  Barry Krost: Uh, how we are in a system and there are ways we can make some repairs so that we're in the system differently, maybe even repair the system a little bit.
• 7:31
  Barry Krost: So that's my current, not, not, not all neat and it's not an elevator speech, but that's mostly how I've been talking about it.
• 7:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of us in society today are programmed or Or we believe that we're, that we don't belong to certain systems, right?
• 7:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Or if there's disconnection within our family or the early trauma and stuff like that.
• 7:54
  Tracy Cartwright: So for some people, the idea of belonging in a family system is just quite foreign, isn't it?
• 8:01
  Barry Krost: Yeah, and it, I don't think we're aware of the sensations of it, so the, when I experienced the family system where it doesn't have a lot of emotion to it, it's more like instincts that we have.
• 8:11
  Barry Krost: Um, so it, it feels like people when they, they think of their families, they get caught up in all the emotions there, but we're at like a different level that isn't that emotional, it's more a feeling of if I stand here, I feel good, and if I stand here, I don't feel good.
• 8:26
  Barry Krost: If my father and mother are bigger than me, I feel good, and if I'm bigger than them, I feel bad.
• 8:31
  Barry Krost: So it's, it's kind of almost, uh, instinctual or like Jungian archetypal.
• 8:37
  Barry Krost: Um, so that's how I describe it, and I try to make it, uh, really make it clear that it's, it's kind of a neutral experience.
• 8:44
  Barry Krost: It doesn't have to be deeply painful, that we can work with trauma at this level and have it be less, uh, less daunting to get into it.
• 8:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, that's what I love about this work too.
• 8:55
  Barry Krost: Yeah, I tend to work in a way where people are pretty, not too emotional, pretty calm, pretty safe.
• 9:01
  Barry Krost: I mean, safety is the number one thing and I think most, almost every facilitator I've seen really operates in a very clean and safe way.
• 9:09
  Barry Krost: I think it's very clean work and it's, it's pretty, just the whole structure of it, it's pretty safe the way we do it.
• 9:14
  Barry Krost: I, I'm really pretty impressed with how most people are just really, uh, uh, really follow a very good and healthy way of, of, of working with people.
• 9:24
  Tracy Cartwright: It's been, and I've shared this before, it's been one of those modalities, well it's been the modality for me that I think has, has kept me here, like just because I didn't, once I started unpacking my trauma there was so much of it.
• 9:38
  Tracy Cartwright: If I continued to go down the original route, talk therapy, counselling, I would still be Right at the beginning, I feel like there was just, this way, it has been a really safe and open and freeing way to let go of so much that was just in my cells, in my, yeah, and I would just, the layers and the layers.
• 9:59
  Tracy Cartwright: So, yeah, I think, you know, I shared this just a couple of weeks ago, actually, that I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Constellations, from the deep pain that was in me.
• 10:08
  Barry Krost: Yeah, it helped me a lot.
• 10:09
  Barry Krost: I, I was, uh, born to a family of, uh, that included Holocaust survivors.
• 10:13
  Barry Krost: And that shadow was over me all the time.
• 10:15
  Barry Krost: I mean,
• 10:16
  Tracy Cartwright: like
• 10:17
  Barry Krost: I was just sort of constantly aware that I, you know, the Holocaust and all the things that happened would have my family members and I could look around the world and see it happening again.
• 10:26
  Barry Krost: You know, you're watching it, uh, be recreated, uh, in the world and not be able to do anything was hard and it was a real struggle, but I really feel like family constellations helped me to, uh, let go of any entanglements I had with it so that it's a fact that it happened.
• 10:41
  Barry Krost: But I don't really feel that affected by it anymore.
• 10:43
  Barry Krost: Uh, I really feel like it's not over me, and I don't really feel like I have to think about it much.
• 10:48
  Barry Krost: And I understand it a lot better, too.
• 10:50
  Barry Krost: That was always kind of a thing, like, what, what, what happened?
• 10:52
  Barry Krost: Now I really have a pretty good idea what happened.
• 10:55
  Barry Krost: Uh, I don't know what I can do about the world.
• 10:57
  Barry Krost: I know how I can help.
• 10:59
  Barry Krost: People one on one or in groups to deal with these kinds of issues and I understand them in the world.
• 11:05
  Barry Krost: I, I don't know what to do about that, but, and that helps too, that I just, uh, understand why I got to where I was going and also saw where I could go next.
• 11:14
  Barry Krost: And so it, it feels like it's very courageous and, and, uh, brave work and the work sort of helps you to be brave.
• 11:20
  Barry Krost: I mean, I did 30 years of psychotherapy too.
• 11:22
  Barry Krost: You know, I spent a lot of time, and it helped, but it wasn't getting me where I needed to go.
• 11:27
  Barry Krost: There was all this stuff in my body, my entanglements with my family members, and I was very entangled with my father's younger brother who died at Auschwitz.
• 11:35
  Barry Krost: And his other brother died at Dachau and I was very entangled with the dynamics and entangled with my father's, uh, guilt and regret and my grand, you know, so I was entangled with a lot of things and psychotherapy just didn't even see that.
• 11:46
  Barry Krost: And it really took a, took a number of constellations to start to, uh, open that up.
• 11:51
  Barry Krost: My very first constellation, you know, Scott Bader had, you know, Dachau over here and people were, you know, it was just amazing, like revisiting the Holocaust, but, uh, I could see it.
• 12:00
  Barry Krost: I could, I wasn't panicked.
• 12:02
  Barry Krost: I could look at it in a certain neutral way.
• 12:04
  Barry Krost: And I left feeling, uh, more, more relieved and that's, that's the thing I like most about is everybody feels relieved, uh, even if it's a little thing, if we feel relieved.
• 12:13
  Tracy Cartwright: That breath out that you can get, right?
• 12:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 12:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 12:16
  Tracy Cartwright: And then you can sit on the outside.
• 12:18
  Tracy Cartwright: So you're sitting in the seeker seat, client seat, hot seat, whatever you want to call it.
• 12:25
  Tracy Cartwright: And you're witnessing your own system on the outside without having to be in it and being in the story and seeing it unfold, right?
• 12:34
  Barry Krost: Yeah, I mean, other cultures have dealt with the trials and tribulations of life by using rituals.
• 12:41
  Barry Krost: So there's everyday time and space.
• 12:43
  Barry Krost: And then we go into ritual space where it's open, it's more expansive, things can heal, relationships are different.
• 12:51
  Barry Krost: And it would be a really restructuring, uh, resetting of the nervous system.
• 12:55
  Barry Krost: And then we move back into normal space and time.
• 12:57
  Barry Krost: And we sort of lost that for the most part.
• 12:59
  Barry Krost: So in a certain sense, constellations takes us out of that normal place where, with the trauma and puts us into a safer, more neutral, maybe more abstract place where we can look at it outside of ourselves.
• 13:11
  Barry Krost: See, see it happening.
• 13:12
  Barry Krost: They're not inside here.
• 13:14
  Barry Krost: And just that, just the, the setup already starts to, uh, help.
• 13:19
  Barry Krost: Like I, I liked the old school thing where we, where the client walks everybody around and places them with their hands.
• 13:24
  Barry Krost: For some years, some years I stopped doing that, but I never brought it back.
• 13:27
  Barry Krost: Gives them a certain kind of, uh, power and agency.
• 13:30
  Barry Krost: They get to set up their family the way they feel it.
• 13:32
  Barry Krost: And that, that already starts to get them feeling, okay, I have some power here.
• 13:36
  Barry Krost: Maybe I didn't think I had, and now they sit down and watch it happen from some distance.
• 13:42
  Barry Krost: So I think it
• 13:42
  Tracy Cartwright: does.
• 13:43
  Tracy Cartwright: It's a wonderful thing, I think, for trauma.
• 13:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you do the little ritual at the end where you do the releasing?
• 13:49
  Tracy Cartwright: Because some facilitators do and some don't.
• 13:52
  Barry Krost: I don't make, uh, I just sort of have people to step out.
• 13:55
  Barry Krost: I like to actually, uh, remind people that we, it's a natural gift to merge.
• 13:59
  Barry Krost: We all know it.
• 14:00
  Barry Krost: The problem is we're merging with things we shouldn't be merging with.
• 14:02
  Barry Krost: So merging is a skill, but there's also a skill in unmerging.
• 14:06
  Barry Krost: Yeah.
• 14:07
  Barry Krost: So it's just like, I really encourage people to just step back and give it back.
• 14:12
  Barry Krost: And so I do it softly, but I mean, I do have a way of doing it and it's been really rare that anybody's had a problem stepping out.
• 14:19
  Barry Krost: It happens once in a very seldom time.
• 14:23
  Barry Krost: So I like this idea that make it like we step in.
• 14:26
  Barry Krost: Step out.
• 14:26
  Barry Krost: It's not a, it's not,
• 14:28
  Tracy Cartwright: it's not a big deal.
• 14:28
  Tracy Cartwright: It's easy.
• 14:29
  Tracy Cartwright: We can do it.
• 14:30
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm on the same page as you with that.
• 14:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, occasionally I'll have to, you know, there's someone that's feeling really stuck.
• 14:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Some facilitators would say that I know would say, Oh, there's a gift in that.
• 14:43
  Tracy Cartwright: And we could acknowledge that.
• 14:44
  Tracy Cartwright: And then sometimes the client really, or the person, the representative really needs to be able to move from this at this moment in time so that they can settle back into their space.
• 14:56
  Barry Krost: I don't like this idea that somehow there's something kind of like, uh, like we're stepping into something wrong or there's this bad energy or it's negative or it's, you know, we see kids we used to call cooties.
• 15:06
  Barry Krost: You know, this is a hard role.
• 15:07
  Barry Krost: This is, you know, it just.
• 15:09
  Barry Krost: It's a gift.
• 15:09
  Barry Krost: We step in.
• 15:10
  Barry Krost: It's easy.
• 15:11
  Barry Krost: We step out.
• 15:11
  Barry Krost: There's nothing poisonous or wrong with it.
• 15:14
  Barry Krost: There's nothing we have to like, you know, shake our hands, just gently step out, gently step in.
• 15:21
  Barry Krost: So I like the idea that we, we honor what we experienced by not making a big deal of what it was.
• 15:27
  Barry Krost: Like, Oh no.
• 15:28
  Barry Krost: Uh, so I like the softness of it just to also, and I don't, I don't realize.
• 15:32
  Barry Krost: Discourage people from going, Oh my God, you had to, sorry, you all had to, you know, be in this.
• 15:37
  Barry Krost: Shh, don't say that.
• 15:39
  Barry Krost: Just it's a gift.
• 15:40
  Barry Krost: It's a service.
• 15:40
  Barry Krost: It's lovely.
• 15:41
  Barry Krost: Uh, I remember one time I, I was in a constellation and I got to, Bertolt Ulzahmer was doing it and I, um, was set up as a rapist.
• 15:49
  Barry Krost: And I just, I thought it'd be really interesting to do these.
• 15:51
  Barry Krost: I like doing the roles that are scary or unknown cause I figure I'll learn something and I. I did learn a whole lot and I got done.
• 15:58
  Barry Krost: I just stepped out and it was, I was just sort of, uh, energized by the experience.
• 16:02
  Barry Krost: It was so strange and wonderful and I could actually step out of it.
• 16:05
  Barry Krost: So I'm having a Danish and having some coffee.
• 16:08
  Barry Krost: And people are like a little concerned about me, like, are you okay?
• 16:11
  Barry Krost: And like, yeah.
• 16:12
  Barry Krost: And my coffee, my dish, I am okay.
• 16:15
  Barry Krost: It's, it's easy to do this and it's easy to step out.
• 16:18
  Barry Krost: It's all right.
• 16:19
  Barry Krost: I'm, I'm, I'm really okay.
• 16:21
  Barry Krost: Yeah.
• 16:21
  Tracy Cartwright: It felt, felt, it felt like a, yeah, it felt like a gift to be able to do it.
• 16:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 16:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 16:26
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 16:26
  Tracy Cartwright: To have that experience.
• 16:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 16:27
  Tracy Cartwright: To stand in the shoes of a perpetrator.
• 16:30
  Barry Krost: Yeah.
• 16:31
  Barry Krost: I learned a lot.
• 16:31
  Barry Krost: We all have them in our family system.
• 16:33
  Barry Krost: Oh, I have them in it, but it was not, it was also, it was never what you really expect.
• 16:37
  Barry Krost: It was like, wow, that's really different.
• 16:39
  Barry Krost: And uh, I, I didn't have a sense of like this person's like, Oh, poor you.
• 16:43
  Barry Krost: But it's just like, well, this is really interesting why you do this.
• 16:47
  Barry Krost: I could feel from the inside that this inside out quality is really interesting.
• 16:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Um,
• 16:52
  Barry Krost: so that was one of my favorite constellations.
• 16:53
  Barry Krost: And I ran into Birchholdt in a parking lot and he was, you were really good.
• 16:57
  Barry Krost: And I was like, oh, yeah, thank you.
• 16:59
  Barry Krost: But so I like to make it the representing very, it's almost like play in a certain way too.
• 17:04
  Barry Krost: We all, kids all know sort of how to blend and imagine.
• 17:07
  Barry Krost: So I like a playfulness to it.
• 17:09
  Barry Krost: If I can get there with it.
• 17:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Speaking of kids.
• 17:12
  Tracy Cartwright: So how old would be the, well, what would be the age range that you would work with?
• 17:17
  Barry Krost: I've worked with, one on one I've worked with kids as young as five, but I, I can work with, uh, you know, 16, 17, 18 year olds now, it's pretty frequent.
• 17:26
  Barry Krost: Like high school age, I work with a lot.
• 17:28
  Barry Krost: Um, Katie and I work with, with kids younger, but they'll do like a short thing, like a meditation.
• 17:34
  Barry Krost: I've worked with some 10 year olds, but it seems like I work with a number, you know, it's not unusual for me to work with somebody in the 16 to 18 range, but not a whole lot younger, but occasionally, and I have, uh, I have some foam, colorful figures.
• 17:47
  Barry Krost: If I need to work with kids, uh, I would, I would like to do it more.
• 17:51
  Barry Krost: It's just, it hasn't really happened as much.
• 17:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 17:55
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm often asked that question too.
• 17:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you work with kids?
• 17:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, I do occasionally when the call needs it.
• 18:03
  Tracy Cartwright: I know that you work a lot with the mental health rounds.
• 18:07
  Tracy Cartwright: For example, um, bipolar, schizophrenia, can you share a little bit about that with our listeners?
• 18:13
  Barry Krost: Well, I've got a little bit of my family, so I encountered it firsthand.
• 18:18
  Barry Krost: So, uh, Bert Hellerger has a lovely video called Families in Turmoil, and, uh, it's mostly about schizophrenia.
• 18:26
  Barry Krost: So it's one of my favorite, uh, of his videos, the selection, you know, the collection, the DVD collections.
• 18:31
  Barry Krost: So I watched that one a lot.
• 18:32
  Barry Krost: And so I just, uh, was always really interested in, in how he did that.
• 18:36
  Barry Krost: A little scared of it too, but just somehow at some point I just started getting clients like that.
• 18:41
  Barry Krost: And I've read everything many times that over what he's written and what it seems like is, is almost all of these mental health issues have in common a perpetrator and victim dynamic somewhere in the past.
• 18:54
  Barry Krost: There's usually some older perpetrator victim dynamic and The mental illness is in some ways a way of dealing with that entanglement and a lot of times the client is in some ways a bridge between the two elements like they're standing between perpetrator and victim trying to help with the reconciliation.
• 19:12
  Barry Krost: That's not happening.
• 19:14
  Barry Krost: So there's somehow often really stuck between those dynamics.
• 19:17
  Barry Krost: And different conditions have different perpetrator victim, uh, uh, uh, origins, like with, uh, schizophrenia, Bert said, it's usually a, a murder between family members.
• 19:27
  Barry Krost: So, um, wife kills her husband, um, husband kills his wife.
• 19:32
  Barry Krost: There's something about schizophrenia where it's a very in the family, uh, murder and then it often, uh, is concealed.
• 19:39
  Barry Krost: So there's the perpetrator, the victim, and the concealment.
• 19:42
  Barry Krost: And it seems like the people who are really exhibiting schizophrenia the most are holding that whole thing They're holding the paradox of that within themselves.
• 19:49
  Barry Krost: So they have all three of those elements within them
• 19:53
  Tracy Cartwright: And
• 19:53
  Barry Krost: it's like they're sacrificing for the whole family in a certain way because berth says and I agree with this The whole family is schizophrenic, not just one person.
• 20:00
  Barry Krost: So, so schizophrenia is the family.
• 20:03
  Barry Krost: And then what happens, of course, is people who are schizophrenic marry people who are bipolar, and they get quite layered.
• 20:08
  Barry Krost: And bipolar seems to be, uh, uh, someone from outside our system perpetrating on, on, on one of our ancestors, one of our ancestors perpetrating somebody on another system.
• 20:18
  Barry Krost: So it seems like it's a dynamic between two systems.
• 20:21
  Barry Krost: And I've had a lot of clients where one, one, one of the siblings identified with, uh, the perpetrator and another sibling identifies with the, uh, victims.
• 20:30
  Barry Krost: So you see a lot of, and within the bipolar person, they're holding both those things.
• 20:34
  Barry Krost: So there's the sort of manic perpetrator energy and there's the, uh, the low end depressive victim energy.
• 20:40
  Barry Krost: So, and that feels like wars and massacres.
• 20:43
  Barry Krost: It seems like a big level of, of, of, uh, challenge there with that one.
• 20:48
  Barry Krost: So those are, those are two, all the other different mental health things have some different kind of, uh, victim perpetrator dynamic.
• 20:55
  Barry Krost: I've started calling them, uh, paradoxical entanglements.
• 20:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Well,
• 21:00
  Barry Krost: as opposed to like a loyal entanglement where I'm just loyal to mom.
• 21:03
  Barry Krost: I'll do it for you mom This is like holding perpetrator victim dynamics at the same time and concealment slightly different scenarios But it seems like that is behind most of these things and then it goes down over many generations Usually by the time I've seen somebody is schizophrenic.
• 21:18
  Barry Krost: It's it's You know, more than 10 generations.
• 21:21
  Barry Krost: And what happens is there might be different places in the system where it's getting repeated, but it feels like the original dynamic is pretty far back, usually, I think.
• 21:31
  Barry Krost: At least that's my feeling.
• 21:32
  Tracy Cartwright: I was lucky enough to be in one of your workshops.
• 21:35
  Tracy Cartwright: I've actually been to quite a few of them, but there was one workshop I came in just curiously about schizophrenia because I have a cousin who's schizophrenic and I have a nephew who exhibits.
• 21:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Those traits, but he's never been diagnosed with it.
• 21:51
  Tracy Cartwright: And you asked, you shared, you were sharing about the, the background of it, you know, bits and pieces.
• 21:56
  Tracy Cartwright: And then you asked if someone would like to do a consternation.
• 21:59
  Tracy Cartwright: And my hand went up.
• 22:00
  Tracy Cartwright: It's the second time.
• 22:02
  Tracy Cartwright: And the thing that my, you know, my hand has a mind of its own.
• 22:05
  Tracy Cartwright: It did its, and I've got quite a fright when I realised my hand was up.
• 22:09
  Tracy Cartwright: We did a piece of work around it.
• 22:10
  Tracy Cartwright: And it was quite phenomenal because, you know, how you shared about the family system being schizophrenic.
• 22:17
  Tracy Cartwright: So in my, my cousin was 13 years older than me, and I've always known her as she is.
• 22:23
  Tracy Cartwright: And then the rest of the family have been, you know, sort of growing up and seen the changes in her.
• 22:28
  Tracy Cartwright: But I, for me, I've always known her as she is.
• 22:30
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause it turned for her when she was about 13.
• 22:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Things got really, really intense.
• 22:35
  Tracy Cartwright: So for me, I've, I've, I've always been quite close and, and it's never been any different.
• 22:42
  Tracy Cartwright: And then in the Constellation I could feel myself actually being very.
• 22:47
  Tracy Cartwright: compassionate, empathic, whatever you want to say, to the perpetrator.
• 22:52
  Tracy Cartwright: And I remember thinking to myself, oh, like, what does that mean?
• 22:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Like, I was going through a few things in my head at the time and, um, shouldn't I be more and more empathic, you know, like, more empathy for the victim?
• 23:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Having, knowing my own history and having the experiences that I'd had, I just couldn't even see the victim.
• 23:14
  Tracy Cartwright: All I could see was the perpetrator.
• 23:16
  Tracy Cartwright: And it wasn't until the concealment was acknowledged.
• 23:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Those who concealed it, I took a breath out and I could then see the victim and, and it kind of came together.
• 23:28
  Tracy Cartwright: So I was just absolutely fascinated about how that, yeah, how we hold space for those or for the unseen.
• 23:35
  Tracy Cartwright: And in my family system, there's been quite a shift.
• 23:38
  Tracy Cartwright: I've noticed my cousin is much more talkative.
• 23:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Whereas she would be very, because they gave her electric shock treatment at 13, uh, 13 to 16.
• 23:48
  Tracy Cartwright: So she's fried.
• 23:50
  Tracy Cartwright: She didn't really talk.
• 23:51
  Tracy Cartwright: She'd just sit there with a scowl on her face and not talk to anyone.
• 23:53
  Tracy Cartwright: And when she did, it was, sounded mad, like madness.
• 23:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Occasionally you get her on a one on one, it was good.
• 24:00
  Tracy Cartwright: But now, now I see her and she's quite interactive with people.
• 24:05
  Tracy Cartwright: That's great.
• 24:06
  Tracy Cartwright: Shift, yeah.
• 24:07
  Tracy Cartwright: And I think, and shifting people around her as well.
• 24:10
  Tracy Cartwright: The way that she received.
• 24:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Which is so beautiful, because I was doing it for curiosity, I wasn't doing it to fix her, or anything like that.
• 24:18
  Tracy Cartwright: I know that, I was just curious about my family system.
• 24:23
  Barry Krost: That concealment piece is often the worst part.
• 24:25
  Barry Krost: Sometimes we set it up and it really, the perpetrator and victim are problems, but it's the concealment that's the real issue.
• 24:32
  Barry Krost: And sometimes people have the most anger for the ones that concealed it.
• 24:35
  Barry Krost: Because I think Hellinger says, and I agree, there's a way that victims and perpetrators at some point, Instinctively want to resolve it or the, or, or people after them can resolve it.
• 24:46
  Barry Krost: So there's a way there's a natural, uh, movement to resolution and the, the concealment prevents it.
• 24:53
  Barry Krost: So the shame about the victim prevents it.
• 24:55
  Barry Krost: We hide that when it's easier sometimes to see the perpetrator, cause it's all right to be angry at that one or
• 24:59
  Tracy Cartwright: hate that
• 25:00
  Barry Krost: one, but the shame of the victim, we won't, we won't look at that.
• 25:03
  Barry Krost: So sometimes perpetrators are much, much more visible.
• 25:06
  Barry Krost: And then sometimes I set these things up and the victim's actually the perpetrator.
• 25:10
  Barry Krost: They're trying to get revenge on the perpetrator for what happened.
• 25:12
  Barry Krost: So they refuse reconciliation, even though the perpetrator is prepared to take responsibility and.
• 25:18
  Barry Krost: Own it all they don't want to give it up.
• 25:20
  Barry Krost: So sometimes it's like, oh, wait a minute Who's really the perpetrator here?
• 25:23
  Barry Krost: So I like about family constellations is we're not locked into You know projecting anything.
• 25:28
  Barry Krost: It's just what is in front of us being phenomenological Just what is really here without any any judgment or pity and often i'm really surprised.
• 25:37
  Barry Krost: I'm still surprised all the time like really Yeah.
• 25:40
  Barry Krost: Okay.
• 25:41
  Barry Krost: And, and I think if we're, I think surprise is one of the key things about the work and I look, I look forward to that surprise every time.
• 25:47
  Barry Krost: It's like, wow, I never saw that before.
• 25:50
  Barry Krost: Just in this last week, I saw several things I've never seen before.
• 25:53
  Barry Krost: It's like, so interesting.
• 25:54
  Barry Krost: Really?
• 25:55
  Barry Krost: And a lot of times it is with perpetrators.
• 25:57
  Barry Krost: There's, it's a lot more variety and how perpetrators show up and what, how we resolve perpetrator dynamics.
• 26:03
  Barry Krost: It's not always just a one note thing.
• 26:05
  Barry Krost: It ends up.
• 26:06
  Barry Krost: Yeah.
• 26:06
  Barry Krost: Being quite interesting if you're open to options, a lot of times the perpetrators are quite willing to become guardians of life as sort of a restitution for what they've done.
• 26:17
  Barry Krost: So they sometimes are, it's like, it's like, uh, the criminal who's understands the pain of it ends up sometimes being the most empathic.
• 26:27
  Barry Krost: Dan, Dan Cohen has a whole book about working with prisoners in, uh, in prisons and, uh, how some of these people, he were doing constellations.
• 26:36
  Barry Krost: Some of them had been killed and they were, had had terrible experiences, but somewhere in there, they had, some of them found a healing and a level of compassion for human suffering that only they could have.
• 26:48
  Barry Krost: Only someone who had killed in that way could feel, at some point, that level of compassion.
• 26:54
  Barry Krost: You know, that certain quality of compassion.
• 26:56
  Barry Krost: So, you have to be open to all of it, and I like that.
• 26:59
  Barry Krost: And I do remember your consolation, by the way.
• 27:01
  Barry Krost: That stood out.
• 27:02
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, and it also made me realize, because there were some incidences with myself and my oldest brother.
• 27:11
  Tracy Cartwright: And he used to threaten to kill me, he used to threaten to slice me up quite regularly and, um, it kind of made sense through that constellation.
• 27:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Obviously he never did it, um, but there was an energy in our system and it was the perpetrator victim dynamics, right?
• 27:29
  Barry Krost: And it's in our bodies, so we're holding, sometimes we're holding more victim, more perpetrators.
• 27:35
  Barry Krost: In the case of the schizophrenic person, they're holding it all.
• 27:38
  Barry Krost: And part of what I, part of what I've gotten from what Hallenger has written and what I have seen is that there's a level where I, It's important that we, we, uh, respect the sacrifice they're making.
• 27:47
  Barry Krost: It's kind of a scapegoat that they hold all that energy.
• 27:51
  Barry Krost: So the rest of us can live.
• 27:53
  Barry Krost: Now, sometimes we're not living that wonderful, but it's almost like I'll take it out.
• 27:56
  Barry Krost: I do it for all of you is almost the sentence they're saying.
• 27:59
  Barry Krost: Sometimes they came to the world and they say, I will do it for all of you.
• 28:03
  Barry Krost: And so life goes on.
• 28:05
  Barry Krost: And they hold it all.
• 28:06
  Barry Krost: And then unfortunately we give them electric shock therapy.
• 28:09
  Barry Krost: We try to see what we can do to make them normal.
• 28:11
  Barry Krost: But other societies have realized that maybe you just sort of have to respect and even honor who they are, how they're holding a certain energy.
• 28:18
  Barry Krost: And no one should have to do it, but if they are going to do it, let's honor them for that.
• 28:22
  Barry Krost: Thank you for your, you know, we talk about here in the U S a lot.
• 28:25
  Barry Krost: Thank you for your service for soldiers and warriors, but that's a lot of the mental health folks are, they're doing it for the family.
• 28:32
  Barry Krost: So, you know, I like to honor us.
• 28:33
  Barry Krost: I thank you for.
• 28:34
  Barry Krost: Doing this terrible fate.
• 28:36
  Barry Krost: Is there a way for us to change it?
• 28:38
  Barry Krost: Yes, but thank you for doing it at least instead of demonizing them and scapegoating them I think it just makes it worse if we or we don't look at them, right?
• 28:47
  Barry Krost: It's too shameful even to see them will look away and constantly family constellation work allows us to really look and be surprised by what's really there And have a relationship with, with it rather than, uh, a story or some objective thing.
• 29:02
  Barry Krost: So, I mean, we're always in constellations having to really feel and really connect with whatever it is.
• 29:08
  Barry Krost: And it's almost never the story or the myth.
• 29:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 29:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 29:13
  Tracy Cartwright: When people come to me and they've got a really big story that they want to share and they want that changed or they want that looked at or whatever, you know, it's like, let's see what's behind that.
• 29:23
  Tracy Cartwright: And that's, yeah, so surprising, isn't it?
• 29:26
  Tracy Cartwright: What comes to
• 29:27
  Barry Krost: your hunger?
• 29:28
  Barry Krost: He doesn't let people say a whole lot.
• 29:30
  Barry Krost: And in my group workshops now online, I let people say a little bit more because we're not in the same room.
• 29:35
  Barry Krost: But in my line workshops, I don't let people say a whole lot.
• 29:38
  Barry Krost: I want to hear just give me the issue.
• 29:41
  Barry Krost: Let's not go into the story.
• 29:43
  Barry Krost: And usually if I'm really paying attention, uh, within the sentence or two, I can already really see the issue and almost, I see the solution.
• 29:50
  Barry Krost: It's pretty fast, but only if they're really concise.
• 29:53
  Barry Krost: If they start talking and I start to get a little lost, it's like, please stop.
• 29:58
  Barry Krost: I'm getting confused myself now.
• 30:00
  Tracy Cartwright: You realize 15 minutes has gone by and you've.
• 30:02
  Barry Krost: Yeah.
• 30:02
  Barry Krost: Yeah.
• 30:03
  Barry Krost: So I try to avoid this.
• 30:04
  Barry Krost: You can't always avoid it, but I do try to keep it.
• 30:07
  Barry Krost: What's the issue?
• 30:08
  Barry Krost: Just because it really, it feels like it's easier to get the insight if it's not so complicated.
• 30:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Hmm.
• 30:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 30:14
  Tracy Cartwright: And, but people don't often, they think, oh, this is like counseling.
• 30:17
  Tracy Cartwright: I have to tell you everything, but it's also,
• 30:19
  Barry Krost: uh, most of my clients are really smart and they use their smart brains to, to get to my, to get to the chair.
• 30:26
  Barry Krost: So they use their intellect to make stories, to rationalize it.
• 30:30
  Barry Krost: It's what got in there, but now it's in the way.
• 30:33
  Barry Krost: And we can't just discount it, but just, can't we just move that over here for now?
• 30:37
  Barry Krost: Well, when we need that, it'll be there, it'll come back.
• 30:40
  Barry Krost: But for now, can we just move the brain over there and let the heart actually have this experience?
• 30:45
  Barry Krost: So I always really appreciate the, sometimes the brilliance and creativity of how people think their way through these traumas,
• 30:52
  Tracy Cartwright: but it
• 30:52
  Barry Krost: usually prevents them from getting
• 30:53
  Tracy Cartwright: well.
• 30:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Have you got any examples?
• 30:57
  Tracy Cartwright: That you would like to share maybe of your own or some of the clients that stands out that you feel comfortable in sharing without divulging private.
• 31:08
  Barry Krost: Let me think.
• 31:09
  Barry Krost: Well, here's a story that this one comes up in my head.
• 31:11
  Barry Krost: So I had a client who had systemic candida.
• 31:15
  Barry Krost: And it was like through her whole body.
• 31:16
  Barry Krost: So she was constantly going to doctor after doctor after doctor trying to bite this candida that she had.
• 31:22
  Barry Krost: And it was a real problem for her.
• 31:23
  Barry Krost: It was like there was lots of, you know, fungus in her body and lots of inflammation.
• 31:27
  Barry Krost: And it was really uncomfortable for her.
• 31:29
  Barry Krost: And she had this whole theory about it.
• 31:31
  Barry Krost: It was this and her mother and her father.
• 31:33
  Barry Krost: You know, she came in there and So we just set up the, the candida, just we'll set up candida and, and you and the candida was friendly and helpful and just liked, wanted to help, you know, was not an enemy at all.
• 31:47
  Barry Krost: It seemed very benign and if not loving, so we, we asked some more questions and her mother had died and, and we, when we looked at it, we saw that she secretly wanted to join her mother in death.
• 31:59
  Barry Krost: She had a compulsion to die.
• 32:01
  Barry Krost: And she couldn't see that.
• 32:02
  Barry Krost: So Candida was keeping her from dying.
• 32:06
  Tracy Cartwright: She was
• 32:06
  Barry Krost: so busy in the story of her illness and going to all the doctors that she didn't have time to kill herself or to go or find a way to die.
• 32:14
  Barry Krost: Cause Candida wasn't killing her.
• 32:16
  Barry Krost: It wasn't a life threatening disease.
• 32:17
  Barry Krost: It was just extremely uncomfortable.
• 32:19
  Tracy Cartwright: So
• 32:20
  Barry Krost: this, this Candida actually was something she almost came up with on her own in some way, part of her came up with Candida eat the other part of her from joining her mother in death.
• 32:31
  Barry Krost: So I don't know if that's exactly the example you're looking for, but that's what came to mind.
• 32:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Brilliant.
• 32:37
  Tracy Cartwright: That's brilliant.
• 32:37
  Tracy Cartwright: I love, yeah, because there'll be someone out there that needed to hear that, right?
• 32:42
  Tracy Cartwright: And the Candida
• 32:44
  Barry Krost: was so friendly.
• 32:45
  Barry Krost: Usually when we set up illnesses, they're totally not the story.
• 32:49
  Barry Krost: They're usually there to help them see something.
• 32:53
  Barry Krost: Usually it's this concealing thing.
• 32:55
  Barry Krost: So something's concealed.
• 32:57
  Barry Krost: And the illness is somehow trying to physically, uh, share the story through symptomology.
• 33:04
  Barry Krost: And, and then, so then we have all these thoughts we have about why we have it, and it's this and it's that, but it's telling very clearly, this happened.
• 33:13
  Barry Krost: It needs to be addressed.
• 33:15
  Barry Krost: And if you address it, maybe we don't have to have the symptoms anymore.
• 33:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 33:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you, like you shared a little bit earlier, you were talking about maybe someone's frozen shoulder or something like that.
• 33:24
  Tracy Cartwright: Is it common for you to when you're doing your body work to also consternate or do you try to keep them separate?
• 33:31
  Barry Krost: I did at the beginning just because I was a little afraid of, of not knowing what I was doing.
• 33:36
  Barry Krost: But, uh, these days I would say 60 or 70 percent of my sessions, I'll bring in a small.
• 33:43
  Barry Krost: Little moment, like maybe a 10 minute thing, a five minute thing, or we'll do something in the chair before we start.
• 33:48
  Barry Krost: It's, it's becoming hard not to, uh, I have my hands on them and I can feel the constellation aspect in them, or I can see the ancestors standing there.
• 33:57
  Barry Krost: Or just I get the insight shows up and I just know it.
• 33:59
  Barry Krost: So the real question, I probably would do it.
• 34:01
  Barry Krost: Everybody, if everybody was comfortable with there, some people just think the constellation is just a little too weird.
• 34:05
  Barry Krost: I mean, bodywork is weird enough, but that's like just a little too far for them.
• 34:09
  Barry Krost: So I think that's probably the only reason it's not a hundred percent.
• 34:13
  Barry Krost: Some of my clients are not exactly receptive and they really haven't consented to working that way.
• 34:19
  Barry Krost: So I'm slowly trying to convert people over to.
• 34:22
  Barry Krost: Letting me do it now and then, but there are a few people that are resistant and so I leave it alone for now.
• 34:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, I find that it quite often, because I also do body work as well, energy work, bearing and stuff.
• 34:34
  Tracy Cartwright: I, yeah, it's 95 percent of the time there's a little bit of something in there that needs to be addressed.
• 34:40
  Barry Krost: Yeah, and I think anything that's not responding or it's chronic is probably a systemic issue And I'm getting you know, I'm pretty good at knowing when a few minutes I'm pretty good scanning So people sit in my chair and I just I've always been able to look at him Oh, you've had a car accident.
• 34:54
  Barry Krost: You've had this and you know, I can just sort of feel all the physicalities But now I look down and go hmm What's going on with the grandmother and when I can almost feel the issues on them or my eyes start to travel to over One direction of the other maternal paternal line.
• 35:08
  Barry Krost: So it's becoming much more automatic as I practice this sort of openness to looking that way that more and more people sit down.
• 35:16
  Barry Krost: I can just say I just start to see it.
• 35:19
  Barry Krost: And I can see where, and I can see where it's, and I can see where it's in the body too.
• 35:22
  Barry Krost: So it's not just, you've got an issue with your mother, it's in the third chakra or it's in the root chakra.
• 35:28
  Barry Krost: So I can almost see where it's sitting in which, which container of the body it is, you know, what's in the liver, rage.
• 35:34
  Barry Krost: So all right, what, so I'm getting closer to that.
• 35:37
  Barry Krost: There may be a time when I actually will teach a course where it's like constellation body work or something.
• 35:41
  Barry Krost: I'm not there yet though.
• 35:43
  Tracy Cartwright: So what got you into the body work in the first place?
• 35:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Was it just a Klingon?
• 35:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Well,
• 35:48
  Barry Krost: I, I think that, you know, I, uh, the whole Holocaust thing got me really, uh, always thinking about healing things.
• 35:54
  Barry Krost: And, and, uh, I had a lot of my own, I had a lot of anxiety.
• 35:58
  Barry Krost: I had a lot of, a lot of really fearfulness, very, a lot of vigilance.
• 36:02
  Barry Krost: And, uh, I just, um, and I was always also very tactile.
• 36:07
  Barry Krost: So I took a couple's massage workshop in college with my girlfriend at that time had epilepsy and she was really stressed out.
• 36:15
  Barry Krost: So we thought we'll take this couple's massage workshop and I can keep her from going crazy and losing, you know, really having bad.
• 36:22
  Barry Krost: Her stress was really making her epilepsy really bad.
• 36:24
  Barry Krost: So that was the thought.
• 36:25
  Barry Krost: And then, uh, I got out of school and, uh, I just couldn't proceed with my anthropology idea at that moment.
• 36:32
  Barry Krost: It seemed a little daunting and there was a new massage school opening up.
• 36:35
  Barry Krost: And I just thought that sounds like fun.
• 36:37
  Barry Krost: So I just signed up without much of an intent.
• 36:39
  Barry Krost: Looking back, it's kind of obvious.
• 36:41
  Barry Krost: I would do that, that I would be interested in healing and reconciliate.
• 36:45
  Barry Krost: It was all the same kind of things that I'm doing in family constellations.
• 36:48
  Barry Krost: Even then it was sort of with me.
• 36:50
  Barry Krost: Uh, when I'm not articulated very well, but so I really like the massage and then and then I did the program.
• 36:56
  Barry Krost: It was very fun.
• 36:57
  Barry Krost: And then I got it happened to get a job on the weekend and it just sort of happened without much intention.
• 37:02
  Barry Krost: And then I started learning more and more things and, you know, taking lots and lots of workshops and my hands got tired.
• 37:08
  Barry Krost: So I had to move to some.
• 37:09
  Barry Krost: Softer ways of working, but I find it really intriguing and limiting us.
• 37:13
  Barry Krost: There was always like something missing like this is good, but something's not missing.
• 37:16
  Barry Krost: So I was always looking for the next thing Oh, I need the lymphatic work now and I need so when I saw the constellation work I didn't get how it would fit in but it really does it really does it adds a whole dimension that My body work does and also I think my body work really helps me with my constellations I think the way I can feel the energy.
• 37:34
  Barry Krost: I'm sure you can feel to the way we feel the energy Uh, I often go up to representatives and I touch them gently and I can help them regulate with a gentle touch or the client with a gentle touch.
• 37:44
  Barry Krost: So I do use it in the family consultation work and online.
• 37:48
  Barry Krost: I'm just using it kind of as an energy scanning thing, but it feels like it feels like everything I've done up to now is part of some grand plan that nobody told me about.
• 37:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, preparing the, preparing the runway for you.
• 38:00
  Barry Krost: But it all seems to fit, you know, when I, when I really sit there and look at all the different skills that I developed along the way, it seemed like all of them would be helpful later on for family constellation work.
• 38:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 38:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, brilliant.
• 38:11
  Tracy Cartwright: And you've got quite a bit coming up this year, haven't you?
• 38:13
  Tracy Cartwright: You were just sharing with me that you're going to Estonia.
• 38:16
  Barry Krost: Yeah, I'm going to Estonia to teach mental health and autoimmune diseases in August, August, uh, 20th, I believe, and, um, then I'm going to Mexico for the, uh, ISCA, uh, is, is inviting me to be keynote speaker for one of the days.
• 38:31
  Barry Krost: I got like five keynote speakers.
• 38:32
  Barry Krost: So I'll go there and then.
• 38:34
  Barry Krost: I've got lots of online trainings.
• 38:35
  Barry Krost: I'm doing, uh, my first training and how to do, uh, individual session work.
• 38:40
  Barry Krost: So I'm going to, I have a group of 25 people.
• 38:43
  Barry Krost: We're going to learn how to be really.
• 38:45
  Barry Krost: Even more precision, precise and proficient at working with individual clients, because there's no, there's no such training out there really.
• 38:51
  Barry Krost: That just focuses on the individual work.
• 38:53
  Barry Krost: So I've done it enough now.
• 38:54
  Barry Krost: I thought, Oh, I think I could teach it.
• 38:56
  Barry Krost: So I thought I'd give it a try.
• 38:57
  Barry Krost: And then I've got lots of online workshops and.
• 38:59
  Barry Krost: I'm starting to do one where it's just an open workshop once a month on a Sunday.
• 39:03
  Barry Krost: So it could be any issue.
• 39:04
  Barry Krost: So I just have a lot of different online workshops, um, live workshops.
• 39:09
  Barry Krost: I have one coming up in July here.
• 39:10
  Barry Krost: So I'm, it's really busy.
• 39:11
  Barry Krost: Seems like almost every weekend I have something, but I really, I love the work.
• 39:15
  Barry Krost: I love to, uh, do the workshops and I love to teach and, uh, I even still like to take them.
• 39:21
  Barry Krost: I'm looking, you know, I'm always looking for an opportunity to go and be just a participant in a workshop too.
• 39:25
  Barry Krost: I like just sitting in and, and being part of the group.
• 39:27
  Barry Krost: I don't always want to be the facilitator.
• 39:28
  Barry Krost: I miss representing as much as I used to.
• 39:30
  Barry Krost: I used to always want to, I was like.
• 39:32
  Barry Krost: I wanted to represent all the time.
• 39:34
  Barry Krost: I lived in Los Angeles for a year and Gary Stewart, uh, was a facilitator there and every Saturday night he had a constellation group, like from seven to, uh, 11, almost every Saturday night, instead of going to bars and partying, I was out there doing constellations and I, I couldn't think of anything that I'd like to do more.
• 39:50
  Tracy Cartwright: No, that's great.
• 39:52
  Tracy Cartwright: That's fantastic.
• 39:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, well, hopefully I'll see you in Mexico as well.
• 39:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Are you, are you going?
• 39:57
  Tracy Cartwright: That's my intention, yeah.
• 39:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 40:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Because I have a, well, I work with cacao as well, so I can combine it.
• 40:05
  Tracy Cartwright: I'll go down and check out some of the cacao origins.
• 40:10
  Barry Krost: That's cool.
• 40:10
  Tracy Cartwright: And there was something in there that you just shared that I was very excited I was going to speak to, but it's gone.
• 40:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Obviously wasn't meant for me to hold on to.
• 40:19
  Barry Krost: Yeah.
• 40:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, that's right.
• 40:20
  Tracy Cartwright: That's what it was.
• 40:21
  Tracy Cartwright: You do a lot in the time zones that are really friendly for New Zealand and Australia.
• 40:26
  Tracy Cartwright: So I'm very grateful for that because often.
• 40:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 40:28
  Tracy Cartwright: We should try to do that.
• 40:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 40:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah,
• 40:32
  Barry Krost: lately I've been doing a thing where I'll offer a workshop in a time zone that's not really good for New Zealand.
• 40:37
  Barry Krost: And then I'll offer the same workshop a month later in a time that is good.
• 40:41
  Barry Krost: So I've been trying to go back and forth and I can't always do it, but I've been trying to offer at least six ish or more workshops that are good for New Zealand and Australia.
• 40:50
  Barry Krost: Uh, as often as I can.
• 40:52
  Barry Krost: And there is, there is a number of people from New Zealand in particular who have been coming to my workshop.
• 40:56
  Barry Krost: So I'm trying to mix it up.
• 40:58
  Barry Krost: I'm doing, doing the best.
• 41:00
  Barry Krost: Yeah.
• 41:00
  Tracy Cartwright: And
• 41:01
  Barry Krost: then I try to find a time.
• 41:03
  Barry Krost: What's what's that one time.
• 41:04
  Barry Krost: So like 1 PM on a Sunday kind of gets New Zealand and like, you know, how many times can I get into one
• 41:11
  Tracy Cartwright: thing?
• 41:12
  Tracy Cartwright: So
• 41:12
  Barry Krost: I've got this thing where it's going to be once a month on a Sunday.
• 41:15
  Barry Krost: And, uh, I think it's seven 30 in New Zealand, but it's, you know, it gets me the most time zones.
• 41:21
  Barry Krost: So it's like 12 o'clock here, it gets me like the widest breath of it.
• 41:26
  Barry Krost: So I do think about it and try to do it, but it's, it's hard 24 hours a day.
• 41:30
  Tracy Cartwright: It is.
• 41:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, it is.
• 41:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 41:32
  Tracy Cartwright: How does your, sorry, if you work most weekends, when do you get time for?
• 41:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Well,
• 41:39
  Barry Krost: I don't work every weekend.
• 41:41
  Barry Krost: Um, I, and I don't work every Sunday.
• 41:43
  Barry Krost: I work a lot of weekends.
• 41:44
  Barry Krost: Uh, I, I try, you know, usually if I do a, uh, a workshop, it's in the, like the morning and then we have the afternoon with my wife.
• 41:50
  Barry Krost: So I do, we do make time for each other and we both work at home a lot.
• 41:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, great.
• 41:54
  Tracy Cartwright: So,
• 41:55
  Barry Krost: uh, no, I do, I have, even though I'm busy, I do space it out.
• 41:58
  Barry Krost: I, this is part of the struggle is how to make sure I leave time for us.
• 42:02
  Barry Krost: Because we've only been married, uh, four years.
• 42:03
  Barry Krost: It's a, it's a new thing.
• 42:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 42:06
  Tracy Cartwright: So, and we I think as a, as a facilitator or anyone that does that, it's kind of, you know, workshops.
• 42:11
  Tracy Cartwright: It's always weekends, isn't it?
• 42:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Usually.
• 42:14
  Tracy Cartwright: And that's part of the makeup of, of the work.
• 42:17
  Tracy Cartwright: So it's, yeah, it's finding the balance that your own family life, when you're doing this work for families, as well as, you know, for yourself, obviously, it's finding that balance.
• 42:28
  Barry Krost: Well, I sit down with like the calendar for the year and it's kind of like a puzzle.
• 42:33
  Barry Krost: And so this year I've got a lot of them where, or where there's, there's two weekends every month that are packed.
• 42:38
  Barry Krost: And then there's a weekend or two that are maybe none or a few.
• 42:42
  Barry Krost: So like this weekend come up, I have like three things.
• 42:45
  Barry Krost: And then the weekend after that, I have like three things.
• 42:46
  Barry Krost: So I'm just kind of.
• 42:48
  Barry Krost: Trying to navigate through the schedule and then of course, there's the different time zones So when I have to do the schedule, it's it's a it's quite a thing
• 42:56
  Tracy Cartwright: It is I've just done mine too and it was it Oh, I had a little bit of a quite a bit of resistance actually just in finalizing a couple of things That's kind of like, you know, once you put it on there and you see your thing That's like there and then what is this?
• 43:10
  Tracy Cartwright: No, what if something else comes up, you know, just see it
• 43:14
  Barry Krost: Well, then the problem is halfway through the year.
• 43:15
  Barry Krost: I get a new idea.
• 43:17
  Barry Krost: Yeah And it's like, Oh, I want to do that.
• 43:19
  Barry Krost: You know?
• 43:20
  Barry Krost: So, so I do, I have this year left a few spots in case a new thing shows up.
• 43:26
  Barry Krost: So I don't have the whole year programmed and I can't do something that's just really exciting and brand new.
• 43:30
  Barry Krost: So I did, I did leave a couple, couple of months are open.
• 43:33
  Barry Krost: Uh, like I'm working on autism right now.
• 43:35
  Barry Krost: I haven't quite, I'm not quite ready to teach autism yet.
• 43:38
  Barry Krost: I'm close.
• 43:38
  Barry Krost: Uh, and because it's controversial, I really feel like I want to really be.
• 43:42
  Barry Krost: super, super clear and super ready for people to come and not agree with me.
• 43:47
  Barry Krost: So, so there's a few things like that, that, uh, and cancer, I'd like to do one on cancer.
• 43:52
  Barry Krost: Uh, and so I'm waiting to see, uh, if, if they'll happen this year.
• 43:56
  Barry Krost: So, but I, and I do have some spaces for that and then things just show up on their own.
• 44:00
  Barry Krost: The work is amazing for just showing up in all kinds of ways that are unexpected.
• 44:05
  Barry Krost: If you told me a few years ago, I'd be doing family constellations for schizophrenia and bipolar and all those things I wouldn't have, you know, I was like, really, that seems too.
• 44:13
  Barry Krost: Too daunting.
• 44:14
  Barry Krost: I don't think I could do that.
• 44:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, I love it because you're very, you're really informative as well.
• 44:19
  Tracy Cartwright: I was learning a lot and I know I've done the schizophrenia one a couple of times with you.
• 44:23
  Barry Krost: Well, I, I, I, I got tried to be a teacher at one point, so it sneaks in.
• 44:27
  Barry Krost: Uh, I got, I got trained to be a high school teacher and when I was a kid, I always thought I'd be teaching college.
• 44:31
  Barry Krost: That was my fantasy.
• 44:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 44:34
  Barry Krost: So, and I've been teaching massage and body work since, uh, 1990.
• 44:38
  Barry Krost: So I, I, I've been teaching a lot, mostly to adults for a long time.
• 44:41
  Barry Krost: So, uh, I like the curriculum planning and gathering information and getting ready.
• 44:46
  Barry Krost: And so I like to be thorough like that.
• 44:47
  Barry Krost: And then, then we go off and do something mysterious, you know, and it's easier to be mysterious.
• 44:53
  Barry Krost: I feel like I have a nice foundation.
• 44:55
  Barry Krost: Then we can really, uh, step into the unknown.
• 44:58
  Barry Krost: We're really tethered into some, some kind of reality.
• 45:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you have any questions for me?
• 45:03
  Tracy Cartwright: Like, let's turn this one around.
• 45:04
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you have any questions?
• 45:06
  Barry Krost: How is this new organization you're putting, you guys are putting together there, working out?
• 45:11
  Barry Krost: ANZKI.
• 45:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Ataroa New Zealand Constellation.
• 45:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Really good, because it's, our intention is about community.
• 45:18
  Tracy Cartwright: It's about opening and bringing awareness for constellations in Ataroa.
• 45:24
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and, and showing, or bringing together because it's very similar And it works really well.
• 45:32
  Tracy Cartwright: It melds really well with the Māori worldview of how they, their um, their tikanga, so their practices as well.
• 45:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, it's going really well is the short answer to your question.
• 45:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Uh, and we're learning lots on the way and we have a great support in the community is growing.
• 45:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 45:51
  Barry Krost: That's great.
• 45:51
  Barry Krost: I was very involved with conferences here in North America for many years, so I know all about, I helped create something called NASK, which I don't know what's going on with it right now, but so I've been involved with a lot of stuff.
• 46:04
  Barry Krost: I know how, how challenging it is, but when it works, it's great.
• 46:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 46:09
  Barry Krost: Yeah.
• 46:09
  Barry Krost: Yeah.
• 46:10
  Barry Krost: Yeah.
• 46:11
  Barry Krost: Yeah.
• 46:11
  Barry Krost: We always have
• 46:11
  Tracy Cartwright: it together.
• 46:12
  Barry Krost: Yeah, that's good.
• 46:13
  Barry Krost: It looks like it.
• 46:13
  Barry Krost: I've been, I've been watching it.
• 46:15
  Barry Krost: I've been reading everything about it, seeing whatever you've, you have online.
• 46:18
  Barry Krost: So it looks really interesting.
• 46:19
  Barry Krost: So I'm glad to hear it's, it's on its way.
• 46:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 46:21
  Tracy Cartwright: And we were talking last night actually, cause we, we meet every Monday and we have done since we, um, since this was birthed, the idea of it was birthed quite a while ago, really probably.
• 46:32
  Tracy Cartwright: So last year was our first one.
• 46:34
  Tracy Cartwright: So nearly two years.
• 46:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Since the conception.
• 46:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, no, not the conception because it had been out there for me for a really long time, but the bringing together the whole actual birthing of it.
• 46:45
  Tracy Cartwright: And, um, you know, we volunteer, we come, we all come together.
• 46:49
  Tracy Cartwright: It's all done in our own time.
• 46:51
  Tracy Cartwright: And, um, yeah, there's a lot of dedication and a lot of love because we want this work to grow.
• 46:57
  Tracy Cartwright: We want it to be, I really have a really strong foundation.
• 47:01
  Tracy Cartwright: That's great.
• 47:02
  Tracy Cartwright: We need it.
• 47:03
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, it means that the world needs it, right?
• 47:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, absolutely.
• 47:08
  Tracy Cartwright: And so, yeah, really grateful for, for you and, um, you know, all that you bring and share for us.
• 47:15
  Tracy Cartwright: So, yeah.
• 47:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 47:20
  Tracy Cartwright: All right.
• 47:21
  Tracy Cartwright: So if someone wants to find you, get hold of you, how would they, um, we'll put some links in the bio, but if you were to share here, how would someone find you website?
• 47:32
  Barry Krost: Well, uh, I have a really good website.
• 47:34
  Barry Krost: And, uh, it's got a lot of pages and also you can find me on Facebook under, uh, Family Constellations Chicago.
• 47:41
  Barry Krost: Uh, I have, I think it's the largest, uh, Facebook page on Family Constellations in English.
• 47:46
  Barry Krost: There's one in Russian that's bigger than mine.
• 47:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 47:48
  Barry Krost: And Mark, and Mark Wolin has one bigger than mine, but it's really Mark Wolin work.
• 47:52
  Barry Krost: So, it's a, it's a Good page on Facebook and I post a lot of stuff but my webpage has everything and you can sign up for all the workshops and uh, I spend a lot of time myself keeping it updated looking pretty.
• 48:04
  Barry Krost: So your website's called?
• 48:05
  Barry Krost: Healingbodytherapeutics.
• 48:08
  Barry Krost: com.
• 48:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 48:11
  Tracy Cartwright: And isn't that one on Facebook?
• 48:13
  Tracy Cartwright: There's a healing body, Berrycrost healing body as well.
• 48:17
  Barry Krost: That's, uh, one Facebook page.
• 48:19
  Barry Krost: The other Facebook page is, uh, Family Constellations, uh, Berrycrost, I guess.
• 48:23
  Barry Krost: It's Family Constellations, uh, slash Berrycrost.
• 48:27
  Barry Krost: But if you just put in, uh, Family Constellations, Berrycrost, you'll find it.
• 48:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay, so mostly Facebook, not Instagram.
• 48:33
  Barry Krost: If you listen under Berrycrost, you'll find me, but I, I, I'm not so, Instagram is not making me happy.
• 48:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, I was a little bit lost there, but now I have an assistant who knows her way around it.
• 48:44
  Tracy Cartwright: So yeah, I
• 48:45
  Barry Krost: like the, I like the Facebook.
• 48:47
  Barry Krost: It's the right level of kind of interaction.
• 48:49
  Barry Krost: I present stuff.
• 48:50
  Barry Krost: People can comment and it has a little looseness to it where Instagram feels a little stuck, but you will under Barry crossed, you will find an Instagram page that I post some things.
• 49:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Brilliant.
• 49:01
  Barry Krost: Thank you so much.
• 49:02
  Barry Krost: Yeah.
• 49:02
  Barry Krost: Thank you.
• 49:03
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, we look forward to seeing you in person in Mexico.
• 49:08
  Barry Krost: Yes, that'd be great.
• 49:10
  Tracy Cartwright: In October.
• 49:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Great.
• 49:12
  Barry Krost: October.
• 49:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 49:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you for listening.
• 49:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you With this episode.
• 49:22
  Tracy Cartwright: You'll find me at Tracy dot Cartwright.
• 49:25
  Tracy Cartwright: That's Tracy with no e dot Cartwright and the or head over to my website, Tracy cartwright.co nz, and receive a free audio with the gift from your ancestors.
• 49:38
  Tracy Cartwright: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.